Deep Healing: Body-Mind Connection, Psychedelics, and Emotional Wisdom with Shuna Morelli

 In this rich and engaging episode, we meet Shuna Morelli, the creator of the Body-Mind Bridge Institute, and explore the fascinating interplay between natural healing, the body's wisdom, and the power of psychedelics for deep emotional and physical healing. Shuna shares her comprehensive journey, starting as a high school teacher, evolving into a licensed hypnotherapist and massage therapist, to ultimately founding the Body-Mind Bridge Institute. Through her journey and written work, including titles like 'What if Symptoms Are Your Friend?', Shuna advocates for tuning into and interpreting the body's signals as a pathway to healing. She delves into her evolution into a 'psychedelic doula,' guiding individuals through transformative experiences with psychedelic substances, emphasizing safety, preparation, and the honoring of ancient wisdom from indigenous cultures. The conversation weaves through personal healing stories, the integration of Body-Mind Bridge techniques with psychedelic experiences, and the critical role of approaching oneself and these powerful tools with intention, respect, and openness. Shuna's work illuminates a path towards self-discovery, healing, and ultimately, a deeper connection with the self and the universe.

00:00 Welcome to the Journey of Health and Vitality
01:01 Introducing Shauna Morelli: A Journey of Healing and Wisdom
08:04 The Power of Listening to Your Body
21:01 Exploring the Depths of Healing with Body-Mind Bridge
27:02 The Transformative Power of Inner Work
35:25 Understanding and Deactivating Survival Trances
39:00 Exploring Trauma Healing and Reconnection
40:16 The Power of Body, Mind, Bridge Sessions
43:47 The Journey to Psychedelic Guidance
47:55 The Psychedelic Renaissance: A New Era of Healing
01:04:24 Integrating Indigenous Wisdom and Psychedelic Medicine
01:07:30 Cultural Shifts and the Future of Healing
01:15:17 Preview of Next Week's Episode: Nervous System Regulation

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the WhatReally Makes a Difference
podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Becca Whittaker.
I've been a doctor of naturalhealth care for over 20 years
and a professional speaker onhealth and vitality, but
everything I thought I knewabout health was tested when my
own health hit a landslide and Ibecame a very sick patient.

(00:22):
I've learned that showing up forour own health and vitality is a
step by step journey that wetake for the rest of our lives.
And this podcast is aboutsharing some of the things that
really make a difference on thatjourney with you.
So grab your explorer's hatwhile we get ready to check out
today's topic.
My incredible guest network andI will be sharing some practical

(00:45):
tools, current science andancient wisdom that we all need,
no matter what stage we are atin our health and vitality.
I've already got my hat on andmy hand out, so let's dive in
and we can all start walkingeach other home.
I am so grateful to introduceyou to our speaker, Shauna

(01:06):
Marelli today.
She is the creator of thebody-mind bridge Institute,
which does so much good forpeople.
She also was previously a highschool teacher.
She's a licensed hypnotherapistand a licensed massage
therapist.
And what she did is combine thatwith her natural healing wisdom
to create the body-mind bridgeInstitute.

(01:26):
What its goal is, is to helppeople go within their deeper
mind.
For healing.
She's written three books.
The first is called.
What if symptoms are yourfriend?
And that was the line I heardher say that helped me know we
were just going to be friendsforever.
Because I do think sometimes thebody is trying to get your
attention.

(01:47):
I think our bodies do so manyincredible things for us.
And one of those things is dealwith and store our trauma or the
effects of our belief systems orour injuries, both psychic and
physical.
I learned from Shauna that ourbodies hold those things as long
as they can, until we get theresources to better deal with

(02:08):
them.
And to help them heal.
Body-mind bridge is abouthelping that process.
To be smoother, kinder, andultimately that makes it faster.
With less suffering required.
She also wrote body-mind bridgeand the self healing mind and
her last non-fiction book wascalled survival trances, which

(02:29):
if you have had much to do withtrauma, And, you know, you kind
of go in survival mode.
You already know what a survivaltrans feels like.
She also has done a lot of selfhealing work in traveling to
other countries.
To work with plant medicines orteachers.
And with psychedelics beforethat all was super cool.

(02:52):
So she's been working with thisfor a long time.
She's a psychedelic doula now.
Which is what she calls it.
When she sits with people, asthey are having their
transformative experiences, tohelp them be safe and to be
available with some of thedeeper mind tools.
Should they be requested?.
As a side note to that, she alsowrote a fiction book called 49
days, which is a super coolidea.

(03:13):
It's a neuroanatomy scientistthat goes into with a, that goes
into researching psychedelics,or checking them out with a
really questioning academicmind.
And it's about what she learnsand what she discovers.
And I think that's super cool.
Shanna lives in the PacificNorthwest in the United States,
near the Mount Rainier nationalparks.

(03:35):
And the best way I can reallydescribe her is she is a person
you would want to walk.
In a forest with.
When I think of her, I can evenjust feel my feet on a forest
path.
You know, those people, thoserare people that are so
comfortable to be next to whereyour whole self is welcome, and
they're there with their selvesand it can be quiet.

(03:58):
Or it can be.
Speaking, but either way.
You're held in your okay.
She's just one of the mostempowering and healing people
that I've ever met.
So I am so excited to share withyou Shauna.
Morelli.

Track 1 (04:11):
Oh, I have been looking forward to sharing your work
with the people in the audience,Shuna.
Before we go into asking Shunaquestions, I just want to share
the story of how we met, ifthat's okay, quickly.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_11194 (04:27):
That's fun.

Track 1 (04:28):
So it was a few years ago and I had decided to get
some coaching to become aprofessional speaker and we both
ended up at the same event withMelanie Spring.
She's an incredible speakingcoach, because she doesn't, as
she says, she doesn't want totrain speaker robots.
She wants you to help find yourvoice and then teach what you're

(04:50):
intended to teach, how you areintended to teach it.
So it was a fascinatingexperience to be there and have
everyone be getting differentdirectives and different pieces
of advice for how we could bringour message out.
Something about you that Ithought was different is in the
public speaking world, a lot ofpeople are trying to, brand

(05:11):
themselves and be louder and bebigger.
And when we were playing thegame to know everybody's names,
we had to pick the first letterof their names to help give
ourselves something to remember.
And since your name was Shuna,We called you Shaman Shuna.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (05:27):
Yes,

Track 1 (05:28):
of the presence that you have with people.
The part of the reason why I'mexcited to bring this episode
into life is to share thatpresence that you have with more
than just me.
And I know people in theaudience will feel it as you are
speaking to them and as you arespeaking the truth.
And I don't know that you aretechnically a shaman, but you

(05:50):
have the feeling.
of being in the presence ofsomeone who is deeply grounded,
deeply listening, and deeplythere for the healing and the
good of both yourself and theother person involved in the
conversation.
I respect that so much.
So thank you for joining us.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (06:05):
Yeah.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Becca.

Track 1 (06:09):
What I heard you learning to speak about is
actually what you now havewritten books about, and I am
just so happy to see your workprogressing because it's so
valuable.
So, I watched you learn how togive this speech.
That was about how symptoms canbe your friend.

(06:30):
And I was in the back of theroom preparing because I was
going just a couple people afteryou, so I was reviewing my notes
and trying to do the last minutethings to not completely lose my
mind from anxiety.
And when I heard you start tospeak, I slowed down and I just
started to listen to what youwere saying.
And you were talking aboutsymptoms or pain in different

(06:51):
areas of our body beingsomething that's trying to get
our attention.
And I followed the steps youtalked about in your talk, just
there, warming up to I'm warmingup to speak, and I had had a
pain in my hip for, I don'tknow, probably just over a year.
And I had tried mashing it, Ihad tried massaging it, I had

(07:13):
tried adjusting it, I had triedexercising it, I had tried
shoving my fist in it and beingfrustrated with it.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (07:20):
Oh, no.

Track 1 (07:20):
the back of the room listening to you speak, I
finally started just asking itwhat it was trying to tell me.
And following some of the adviceyou gave me and it turned into
just a beautiful experience forme about stability.
I was able to see a picture inmy mind of when this started and
why, and how it related to mysense of security or stability

(07:44):
or my loss of it.
And I was in a very difficulttime in my relationship at the
time.
And Yeah, you, you gave me acourse correction, like a
diversion of the water over intothe arena of listening to myself
instead of just trying to makethings go away.
So valuable.
So can you tell me then, Forpeople who maybe never have

(08:09):
heard of your work or heard thephrase that the symptoms can be
your friend I know that's yourfirst book and I did see you can
actually get that free as an ebook if you go to your website
So I'll put a link in that butcan you explain why symptoms can
be your friends, you know?

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (08:25):
Oh, yeah, happy to.
And by the way, thank you forthat story.
That was beautiful how you justdid that spontaneously from the
back of the room.
That's pretty awesome.

Track 1 (08:36):
It's true.
And it, you know, helped me notbe sweating so hard to get ready
to speak.
So thank you again.
Yep.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (08:48):
when we have, for example, chronic
physical pain, and we go to allthe doctors and they take, do
the imagery and the docs comeback and say, we're not sure
what's going on, that type ofthing where there isn't a
diagnosis available for whateveris going on chronically.
Often it's because Somethinginside our intelligent body, our

(09:10):
bodies are so intelligent, andthey're always trying to get our
attention.
And if they can't get ourattention with emotional
triggers or things like that,then the body will amp it up a
little bit, and now you've gotphysical pain that you don't
know what it is.
And just like you did, that's abeautiful example.

(09:31):
You tried all the physicalapproaches to this pain in your
hip, and you thought, oh, well,maybe I'll just close my eyes
and imagine myself talking tothat physical pain and see if it
has anything to tell me.
And that's what you did, and ittold you something about, you
know, instability.
Whatever it was that it toldyou, that's the message that

(09:53):
your intelligent body was tryingto tell you, was trying to pass
on to you.
And so once your outer mind,your conscious mind, heard that,
the pain dissipated.
And so in that way, we can thinkof our symptoms as helpful, as

(10:14):
messengers, as a friend.
And I don't know about you,Becca, but you know the way I
was raised about symptoms isprobably the way most people
were.
First of all, symptoms are onlyphysical.
I had never heard of anemotional symptom before.
They're just physical, andthey're bad, and when you get a
symptom you take a pill or yougo to somebody to fix you.

(10:36):
I mean, that's how I wastrained.
And so doing a 180 on thatperspective is considering the
fact that we have, all of us,All of us, if there's 8 billion
people on the planet, all of ushave some trauma, all of us had
some rough patches along the waythat created emotion in us that

(11:00):
couldn't escape the body.
In other words our emotions, thewhole gamut of our emotions
those are, those are types ofenergy.
Emotion is energy.
The fear, the joy, it's allenergy.
And our bodies are designed tofeel it and then feel it again.
In the best case scenario, toactually express it out of the

(11:23):
body.
So if we're angry, we get to beangry, we get to feel it in our
body, and then we get to expressit however we do.
You know, punching a punchingbag, or yelling into the air,
something.
And if that anger can't beexpressed for whatever reason,
it stays in there, and over timeit will create some, usually,

(11:45):
emotional symptom first.
Like anxiety, or depression, orOCD.
It's a whole gamut of emotionalthings.
And if we don't respond to that,if we don't know how to, because
there's I have so muchcompassion.
Most people don't have a cluethat they can do this, that

(12:06):
they're capable of this.
But if we aren't able to listento that thing that happened back
then, that made us really sadback then, and now we're in full
blown depression and takingpills for it, if we're not able
to listen to that, then our bodywill typically amp up, as I

(12:26):
said, and create some physicalsomething.
Not because we're being punishedor because our symptoms are bad,
but because our deeper mind istrying to get in contact with
our surface mind, our consciousmind, because something,
information needs to be passedon to help us.

Track 1 (12:48):
Hmm.
I love that because informationneeds to be passed on.
to help us.
So first of

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (12:56):
the conscious mind.
yes.

Track 1 (12:58):
mind.
So first of all, I thinksometimes it can be scary to
learn how to do that.
Not because I think healing isscary, but because it takes a
different approach.
I realized I had to be willingto be the lady that was talking
to myself.
Like I just full blown going ona walk, talking to myself, like
I used to thought only the crazypeople did.

(13:18):
And then I just joined theirranks and it turns out.
The people willing to listen totheir own body's information can
have an easier time healing.
I think I was afraid for a whileto listen to what was happening
because A, I might not know whatto do about it.
B, I didn't want to just stay inthe drudgery muck of why I was

(13:42):
sad or why I was afraid.
I'd rather just move on to thismoment.
Thank you very much.
We're done.
Oh, those are probably the mainreasons why I didn't want to.
But also I didn't know how toreally listen with respect to
myself.
I think I was afraid of what washiding in the depths and wasn't
yet quite certain that I coulddeal with it.

(14:03):
But you said We were leavingthat event and going back to the
airport and on the bus.
You said a phrase that helped mebe brave.
I was right in the process ofbeginning to learn to listen to
my body when we met.
And a phrase that you said iskind of my, been my guiding
star.
You said that the body holds onto trauma that we don't know how

(14:27):
to deal with or upset or, or,you know, energy and motion,
that emotion our body holds onto trauma until we have the
support of the body.
or tools to be able to deal withit as, as a gift, right?
It holds on to as much as it can

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (14:46):
Yes.

Track 1 (14:46):
give us a little time.
And so I started to think afteryou said that when something
came up, okay, so if my body'sheld onto it as long as it
could, and it's presenting now,that must mean there's something
about the state that I am innow.
That means I have some tool tohelp myself through this.
It doesn't mean it's coming upjust to make me feel terrible

(15:09):
all the time or just to make itso I can't stop thinking about
that thing that happened whenI'm 6 or 8 or 12 or 23.
It means it's time and I havesome resource available to help
me.
Now whether that's just like abelief system that makes it
easier or whether it's thetruth, either way, it empowers
me to be able.

(15:29):
To look.
And it started a conversation oftrust, I guess, with my body.
That it doesn't come up withmore than I can handle at the
time.
And that when it feels reallyoverwhelming, like you
mentioned, big anxiety, or bigdepression, or OCD, or big
anger, those were all thingsthat were super scary for me.
And what I've learned is, asI've learned to trust my body to

(15:50):
bring it up in pieces,

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (15:53):
Mm hmm.

Track 1 (15:53):
pieces I can handle.
And then I get success withtuning into that and having an
experience where I come aroundto more integration, more love,
more presence within myself.
And that gives me morecapability the next time if
something comes up, that'sscary.
Is

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (16:11):
Yes! Ha ha ha ha!

Track 1 (16:13):
experienced it with other clients and people that
you teach?

shuna_2_03-05-2024_11194 (16:16):
that's beautiful.
Some people do it in steps likethat as they are capable or as
they are become more aware.
Yeah.

Track 1 (16:23):
Mm hmm.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (16:24):
Let me give you an example.
If something happened when youwere six years old and you
weren't able to express it, nowyou're still holding on to that.
And that part of you has frozenor shut down.
It was, It's a beautiful thingthat happened because we now
know the central nervous systemis what steps in and freezes
that part of us, that part ofus, when we were six years old.

(16:48):
And it's supposed to betemporary, right?
That shutting down is supposedto be a survival thing.
So that can get us to adulthood.

Track 1 (16:58):
Oh, pause there.
Cause what you're going to sayis beautiful, but I do want to
say so it can get us toadulthood.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (17:05):
Yeah,

Track 1 (17:06):
have had so much judgment for myself for times
when there was trauma and Ifroze in, I'm like, Becca, why
didn't you fight?
Why didn't you jump up?
Why didn't you speak?
Why didn't you save?
Why didn't you do anythingexcept for just pretend to be an
airhead or pretend to be asleepor pretend you didn't know what
was happening or just freeze?

(17:27):
And what I've learned is so manypeople have that.
And I was so angry at myself forthe longest time, angrier than
what anyone else had had doneangry at myself for not
protecting.
And that I'm, I'm onlyinterrupting to say because I've
learned that's very, verycommon.

(17:49):
So just like you do, you say aphrase that hits me.
I'm just like, say it again.
We freeze for very good reasonso we can get to adulthood.
And our body might hold thatfreeze until we can get to it

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (18:05):
Until we're resourced.

Track 1 (18:06):
way, resourced way.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (18:08):
Yes.
Until we have more lifeexperience, etc.
And, thank you for saying that.
That's beautiful.
And you know, now we're adults,and we know this thing happened,
or maybe we totally forgot aboutit, but it keeps coming up,
right?
We keep getting triggered, andthat six year old voice comes up
and bothers us.

(18:30):
With these triggers, and we wereupset, we shove it back in, or
we drink a six pack or whatever,however we do it, to deal with
numbing it out.
That's all most people know todo.
But what it is actually tryingto do is finish the trajectory
out of the body.
And we often use these words.

(18:51):
We often say, Oh, that happenedin the past.
That happened a long time ago,why don't I just forget about
it?
Or people we, people who love ussay, Honey, it didn't happen a
long time ago, let it go.
And they don't realize that ifthat part of us was frozen at
age six, and it's still inthere, it will continue to

(19:11):
surface, and here's the piece,it's not in the past.
Otherwise it wouldn't be in ourface right now.
is in the present time andaccessible, accessible.
And so it's like this six yearold self who is still frozen
inside and still afraid or stillshamed, all the things, right?

Track 1 (19:33):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (19:35):
Pops into our, unexpectedly into our
day and we get upset without itand shove it back down because
we don't know what else to do.

Track 1 (19:43):
And because it comes at inconvenient times.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (19:46):
Yes.

Track 1 (19:46):
at work and someone that I need to be professional
with is reminding me ofsomething that happened when I
was six years old, I'm trying tobe 43, not six.
Go away.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (19:58):
Yes.
Mmhmm.

Track 1 (19:59):
talk about these parts.
I'm wondering if we could gointo a little bit about what you
do.
You talk about these parts of usthat are six years old, or times
where trauma may have happenedor upset may have happened and
we didn't get the energy all theway out because we couldn't.
about them as though we kind ofcome around to find parts of
ourselves.

(20:20):
Those like little Becca at sixyears old or little Shuna at 12.
I'm wondering how that isdifferent or the same.
as other therapy things I haveworked with, like internal
family systems where you've forthose who may not be familiar
with that, that's a commontherapy technique or tool where
you find, you know, differentparts of yourself, parts of your

(20:43):
internal family that make upyourself and, and begin to
almost exchange a dialogue.
So you can understand why thoseparts are there.
Like the part that gets angryall the time, kind of like
inside out, like the movieinside out.
Your book, I mean, your workreminds me of that, but also
it's different.
Can you explain to me whatyou're going inside to feel or

(21:05):
how you even go inside and whatone might find?
I know that's a big topic, butcan you explain your work?
Hmm.
Yep.
Perfect

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (21:20):
An amazing thing naming all those
parts that are in the basement.
If people are, people know thatwork, they know what I'm talking
about.
So there's specific names forspecific parts, and that really
helps a person understand thatthey have all these parts.
What is different in my approachis, and I don't think I've ever
actually articulated this, Ihave a different perspective.

(21:47):
Let's just say that we've gotthat each human being is a whole
bunch of energy.
We can even think of the piediagram.
All we have, all this energyavailable to us that is moving
through our body.
And as we're growing up, certainparts of that energy are shut
down.
And, aren't able to express,aren't able to be creative, to

(22:07):
add to her creativity and so on.
And so instead of havingspecific names of specific
parts, it's like, okay, that sixyear old went through this
thing.
And now, to answer the secondpart of your question, how do we
do that?
I assist people to move fromtheir outer mind, their
conscious mind, hypnotherapy.

(22:32):
But then, I only guide them.
And I help them locate, now,once they're in their deeper
mind, I help them locate, whereis that child in the body?
Where do they feel that part ofthemselves, that six year old?
In their body.
So it's very body centered.

(22:54):
And I'll have them scan theirbody and they'll say, Oh, I feel
that six year old in my, in mysolar plexus.
And while they're in theirdeeper mind, I guide them to
move their awareness toward thatdiscomfort.
Toward that child, that part ofthem that is frozen.

(23:14):
Not away from it, but toward it.
And to look around in theirimagery, their deeper mind
imagery, and just see what'sthere.
And.
And images come to people andthey're random, they seem
random, often.
And then I guide them to have aconversation with that image
that represents that six yearold.

(23:37):
Sometimes the six year oldherself or himself actually
shows up.
And then we just care for thatchild.
What does that child need?
Does that child need to get outof the house?
You know, what does the adult,so here's the piece, the adult
is going back, I don't even knowif I can say back, the adult is
looking around for that part,that six year old that is still

(24:01):
frozen.
And when the adult finds thatsix year old frozen part, I'll
ask questions like, Where isyour six year old?
Are they in the house?
Are they out in the yard?
Are they at school?
And so that helps them fill intheir imagery of this moment in
their life.
And then I ask, does the childknow that you are there, you,

(24:23):
the adult self, that you'rethere with them?
And so I help them have, youknow, realize that they're both
there.
And then I ask the adult, how dothey want to help the child?
Do they want to hold them, tellthem that they're okay?
Do they want to get them out ofthe house, out of the danger?
And so the inner work is done,obviously, by the client, not by

(24:47):
me, the practitioner.
And so I am assisting a personto find that frozen part.
I actually ask if they can makeeye contact, deep in the mind,
if that makes sense.
If the adult self and the sixyear old self, I ask, I ask the
adult, Can you see, can you seeher eyes?

(25:10):
The eyes of your six year old?
What do you see in them?
And they're, I've I've come tocall it alpha eye contact.
But there's something thathappens when the, when the adult
aspect and the child aspect makeinner eye contact, some kind of
connection happens.
And there's often a release ofemotion from the adult.

(25:35):
It's like, wow, there you are.
And so after the adult helps thechild however they want to, I
ask if they want to invite thechild home.
And what I mean by home is, Hey,six year old child, would you
like to leave this place andcome be in present time with me?

(25:58):
Where you will be seen, andwhere you will be safe, etc.
So the adult then gets to choosewhether to do that or not.
They usually do.
And now the essence of this sixyear old has joined the energy
of the person, if that makessense.

Track 1 (26:18):
sense.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (26:20):
It's hard to describe sometimes.
So now they've joined theenergy.
They've joined the adult inpresent time.
And the cool thing is, theybring so many gifts to the
adult.

Track 1 (26:33):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (26:34):
Maybe the adult has forgotten how to
play, which is often the case.
And now they've received thischildlike energy back into their
system.

Track 1 (26:43):
Yes.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (26:44):
And they're lighter and they play
more and they're less stressed.
The brow is less furrowedthrough the day, you know, so
that's, you know, a general ideaof what Body Mind Bridge is all
about.

Track 1 (27:00):
So beautiful.
So I have worked with you twicenow, and both are sacred
experiences to me.
Both, just pictures and diagramsall over in the journals that I
had at the time.
I was, I think of themperiodically because of what I
got back, I should say, fromthat.

(27:22):
But as you're talking aboutthat, just to clarify for the
audience.
So, You have a hypnotherapybackground.
You've also been a high schoolteacher and massage therapist.
So going into it intellectuallyand also energetically and also
helping people get in theirdeeper mind is just this
beautiful synergy that you, thatyou specifically can provide.

(27:45):
So what you do is help people afeel safe, be go in there
deeper, So you're not beinghypnotized really and you're not

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (27:55):
Mm mm,

Track 1 (27:56):
Led by anyone.
What I noticed is you helped mefeel safe enough and to go deep
enough that I could go in thatland of sort of abstract, deeper
mind thinking.
And then when you ask a questionlike, where are you feeling this
anger or where are you feelingthis or this something in your

(28:16):
body?
And it surprised me both times.
It wasn't.
where I thought it would be.
I'm like, why is something in myrib?
I don't know why something's inmy rib.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (28:25):
yeah, mm hmm,

Track 1 (28:27):
my finger in that all the time to try to get it to
like, play nice if I'm trying torun.
But what I found was I did havea little girl and I remember
when I found her, she was on thefloor just sobbing.
But an interesting thing for meand the reason I bring it up is

(28:47):
because I've noticed that bothtimes my experience with you
related a lot to what I wasundoing in my life.
The second time that I workedwith you, I really was in a spot
of not in a shameful waylearning what I had done to
myself.
It was like in a way of reallytaking a look at what I had done
to myself by betraying myself sooften, you know, for the good of

(29:11):
my family.
I'm putting this in air quotesor the good of my patients or of
my employees or whatever, justwalking away over and over from
myself.
And when I, as an adult cameinto this session with you found
this little girl sobbing on thefloor, when I, when I went down
to talk to her as I would, youknow, my own little girl and be

(29:31):
kind.
She was glad I was there, butshe did not trust me.
When I told her that I wouldtake care of her, she looked
right at me and she told me Iwould sometimes, and then she
knew very well I wouldn't.
Sometimes, and I was distraughtbecause I'm like, well, a,
you're super cool.
You're telling the truth.

(29:51):
Thank you for speaking as alittle girl would.
You don't believe me and I don'tblame you, but I don't know what
to do.
I don't know how to keepdropping the ball on myself.
I don't know anything differentthan just trying to do my best
for everyone else.
And I remember being so gratefulthat you were there to guide me
because I I meditate often.
I can do it in a work by myself,but in that spot, I felt stuck.

(30:15):
I'm like, well, she doesn'ttrust me.
I can't integrate.
That's fantastic news.
But you asked me if I could findan older version of myself,
perhaps a version that has notyet come to pass, but that is
older and wiser or a higherself.
And I'm, I met two differentparts that day.

(30:38):
I met my higher self, which Ifeel as like a spiritual, my
soul.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (30:43):
hmm,

Track 1 (30:44):
I also met a woman that looks to me to be in her early
sixties, probably short grayhair.
And she's just sitting andlaughing on a beach.
It's just so simple, but it'sblazoned in my mind.
And she looks like she ownsherself and you wouldn't be
afraid to have a realconversation with her.

(31:04):
And there's also just joyradiating out of her non makeup
face.
And once I met her, then youasked me what she had to say.
And I had a conversation withher, which was beautiful, but I
didn't know how to integratethose three parts.
It was like mother, maiden,crone, only the maiden was very

(31:24):
little.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (31:26):
yeah,

Track 1 (31:27):
when you had my higher self come in and speak to us,
then I, the person this age.
This, this experience couldintegrate us all.
And it was unbelievablybeautiful.
Every time I think about it, Ifeel that energy of a child's

(31:48):
trust in me restored of theresponsibility of the trust that
is placed in me to take care ofher as I take care of myself.
Yeah.
And the wisdom and joy to lookforward as I peel layers off.
I mean, I didn't see someonethat had reached some pinnacle
of financial success or was onsome, in some foreign

(32:10):
mountaintop.
I saw me being happy and, andthat was so valuable.
The way you led it wasbeautiful.
So if people are wondering whatyou mean by eye contact, there's
really something, I meansomething powerful when your
lip, when your child inside willlook at you.

(32:31):
with trust and belief in you.
And there's something powerfulwhen an older version looks at
you, like you are exactly whereyou're intended to be.
And you're taking the steps youneed to when it comes from
within you.
It's different.
It's powerful.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (32:47):
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Track 1 (32:50):
pretty awesome, Shona.
So, oh,

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (32:56):
know we're doing this.
You're awesome.
No, you're awesome.
You're awesome.
But you have to, you have tounderstand that you came to that
session ready.
There's something in you thatsaid, okay, I'm going to try
this.
There's something about this.
is speaking to me and you, it'sso wonderful the story you just

(33:16):
told because Your adult selfkind of went, yikes, she doesn't
trust me, this is my six yearold, I thought for sure she
would just run into my arms, andshe spoke the truth, and you
were able to receive that,instead of get defensive.

Track 1 (33:34):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (33:35):
And because you were able to receive
that, it's what cued me in onthinking, Oh, I wonder if she
has an older self that wouldlike to So, it's an exchange.
I don't have that already in myhip pocket thinking, Oh, if her
child doesn't trust her, thenwe'll bring in No, it's an
exchange between you and I doingthis inner type of work.

(33:59):
So it takes two kind of thing iswhat I'm saying.
Yeah.
you did beautifully,

Track 1 (34:04):
think that's how healing works often.
The deep presence that I talkabout with you, that is a goal
of most of the healers that Iknow is just to pay attention.
And I don't mean only if you arein healthcare or only if you're
in therapy type work.
There are people that I knowthat I would call healers just
because of how you feel when youare standing in front of them.

(34:27):
And they're.
with you.
They're just with you.
I think there's something aboutthe energy exchange that happens
then that is deeply fulfillingand connecting.
And the more of us that do that,the better and the more of us
can do that when we can do itwith ourselves.
So I love that you do onlineconsultations.

(34:48):
Online appointments, but youalso have some books and let's
talk about that because it'sawesome.
You have finished books.
I still have not finished oneyet.
I am applauding everyone whoactually can get a copy of a
book that someone finished.
It's wonderful.
But you came out with, so BodyMind Bridge Institute is your
business.
And I know we've talked aboutsymptoms being your friend and

(35:10):
then you have one about BodyMind Bridge that teaches more
about that.
Your last one I thought was It'svery interesting also about
survival trances.
So we touched a little on what,what that was earlier in this
interview, but didn't call it asurvival trance.
Can you explain what that is?
Because I bet a lot of people inthe audience will know exactly

(35:31):
what that feels like.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (35:33):
know, as soon as people hear that
term, and they've never heard itbefore, they'll go, Oh, oh,
that's what's going on with me.
I mean, there's something thatpeople recognize with that name.
And so yeah, I wrote an entirebook, it's called Deactivate
Your Survival Trances.
How to deactivate them.

(35:55):
And I wrote a book specificallyon that because it seems to be
the thing that needs to beaddressed by most people in
order for them to move on

Track 1 (36:08):
Right.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (36:09):
with whatever healing they're doing.
Could be physical or emotional,whatever.
So yeah, survival trances,basically what we were talking
about earlier, like that6-year-old is in this.
horrible situation.
They can't run.
I mean, the fight or flightkicks in, right?
The fight or flight or freeze.
That's the third F.
Fight, flight, or freeze.
or fawn.

(36:29):
Yeah, there's, now they knowthere's a fourth one.
So, our body, our physicalitykicks in, sees the danger, kicks
in, and if you're little, youcan't run, you can't fight that
bigger, you know, there'sreasons why you have to freeze.

Track 1 (36:43):
Yep.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (36:45):
And when we do that, parts of, part
of us has to shut down is oneway to say it, but I guess not
participate with the rest of us.
It's like on hold, on pause,withholding part of our energy.

Track 1 (37:00):
Mm hmm.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (37:01):
Are different ways to say it.
And so that's what a survivaltrance is.
And as I mentioned earlier, wenow know that our central
nervous system kicks in and doesthat for us.
So that we can, again, surviveto adulthood.
It's a survival mechanism.
So if we can't run away and ifwe can't fight, we freeze.

(37:23):
And that's a survival trance.
And it can happen at any age.

Track 1 (37:27):
and how does that show up when you are an adult then?

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (37:33):
Well, often it shows up with what we
call triggers.

Track 1 (37:36):
Mm hmm.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (37:37):
Let's use a an example of an older
person.
Let's say, this is a real commonthing, you're in a car accident.
You're driving, you see itcoming, somebody's going to hit
you.
You see it in the rearviewmirror.
And we automatically tense upand get ready for the, you know,
for the hit.
And depending on how that allturns out, if we aren't able to

(38:00):
express the fear, At that time,we might then be afraid to drive
a car.

Track 1 (38:08):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (38:09):
I've worked with several people who
don't want to get in the caragain because they're still
traumatized by that wholesituation.
And if they were physically hurtand years have gone by and now
physically the docs say, you'regood, physically you're fine.
Why do you still have thattrauma?
pain in your head.

(38:29):
Why do you still have, I'mthinking of a lady right now who
came in with neck pain, chronicneck pain, headband everywhere,
had all the MRIs, etc.
And when I was talking with her,she had been in a horrible car
accident 20 years earlier, and Iwon't go into all the details.
difficult details, but shehealed physically, but not

(38:53):
emotionally, and was stillholding that trauma in her neck,
in the muscles in her neck,

Track 1 (39:00):
Wow.
So as you go in, could she gointo that trauma by sort of
feeling the energy or, or the,you know, however that feels for
different people, but feelinghowever that energy is
manifesting in there, was sheable to go in deeper and help
relieve some of it?

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (39:17):
yes, yes, and I say it hesitantly
because this is the point wherepeople think, oh, that's being
re traumatized, and people askme, but will I be re traumatized
if I look at that again?
And honestly, you know, I'veworked with hundreds of people
with lots of different traumas.
Never, never has anyone been retraumatized, and I'll say why.

(39:42):
When you are in charge, whenyou, the adult self, makes the
journey back to seeing that caraccident, you can actually
distance yourself from it.
I help people do this.
You're not feeling it again.
You're not in the trauma again.
You're watching it from adistance.

(40:03):
And, well, so I guess I am goingto go into a few of those
details.
So in this, in this horrible caraccident, her daughter actually
was in the car and her daughterdied.
So it was awful.
And so in her Body, Mind, Bridgesession, she wanted to, she
wanted to finally let go of thisemotional reason that she had

(40:24):
the neck pain.
And so in her Body, Mind, Bridgesession, she chose Okay, I'm
going to go back to that time,and it's in black and white now,
I don't have to feel thesethings, I can just watch them.
And the image that came up washer daughter.

Track 1 (40:41):
Oh, wow.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (40:43):
her daughter said, Mom, I'm okay,
don't blame yourself, you know,that kind of thing.
And she got to speak with herdaughter, and of course she was
crying and releasing, which isbeautiful.
And when she was done with thatAnd this doesn't always happen,
but when she was done with that,her neck pain of 20 years was
gone, and it stayed gone.

Track 1 (41:03):
From the, from the outside view, you could even say
if it was emotionally being heldthere, but part of it was her
daughter, you'd be trying to letgo and trying to hold on.
Right?
I mean,

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (41:17):
Oh, yeah, I never thought of that.
Yeah.

Track 1 (41:20):
thing to look at, but scarier to let go twice if
that's the last thing you have.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
Yes.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (41:27):
But she didn't let go.
She built a relationship again.

Track 1 (41:31):
That's beautiful.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (41:33):
Does that make sense?
I mean,

Track 1 (41:36):
and such a different way to look at it.
Like going in and talking to heris a huge gift.
Having your body be yelling atyou does not feel like a gift.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (41:47):
Yes.

Track 1 (41:48):
And done with respect and with help as in like being
guided by you.
So she's not being stuck in it.
I think that's beautiful.
That's the concern for a lot oftrauma is just, will I be re
traumatized exactly like yousaid?

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (42:02):
That is not fun.
So again, this person was not retraumatized because she was
doing this, not me.
I wasn't saying, okay, now, goback to that car accident.
I wasn't Leading her that way,it was her choice.
She was empowered enough to gosee what she could do to release
this neck pain.
And that's the imagery that cameto her and she is the person who

(42:27):
talked with her daughter.
And she is the person whoallowed herself to sob and to,
in her imagery, to hold herdaughter and love her daughter,
etc.
To reconnect and move out of thegrief and move out of the guilt
and the, you know, depressionand all that, so.
That's the difference.

Track 1 (42:47):
That's a hard story.
I know but I'm so grateful thatyou shared it and I'm grateful
that she came to you So we hadthis opportunity to talk about
it because I think like so manythings part of the trauma or the
things we can't let go or whenwe feel like something happened
to us like we weren't The one inthe driver's seat or making the

(43:08):
decisions.
And if we can go into theseexperiences with more
empowerment and more supportwhere we are indeed making more
of the choices, we are talkingto our little girls or, you
know, her actually to her, hervision of her little girl.
But are the ones standing up forit.

(43:28):
We are the ones.
It's doing the work.
It's a very different seat wheretrauma seems done to us and
healing seems like we comeforward to decide what we want
and what we want to live with inthe future.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (43:43):
Oh, I love that.

Track 1 (43:44):
I think.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (43:45):
Yeah, that's well spoken.

Track 1 (43:47):
I think this is a perfect way to segue into also
some of the other things thatyou're doing now.
So, you just finished a book andI Love the idea of it.
It's a fiction book instead of a

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (43:58):
Huh.
Huh.

Track 1 (43:59):
but such a fun way to teach it.
So you are helping people moveinto their deeper minds or their
into, I guess, a more likespiritual journey space or into
trauma also in a differentempowered way using, I think you
called yourself a psychedelicdoula, but I know you have a
more professional name for it.

(44:20):
So can you explain to me howyou, how or why you started
moving into that space?
I know a lot of people areinterested in that, but I also
know a lot of people have heardtraumatic stories where it was
done poorly or done wrong andpeople did end up getting re
traumatized by going into itwhen they were actually seeking

(44:41):
for help.
So can you tell me about yourtransition into this and then
how you make that also a placethat can be more safe and more
empowering to help people godeeper?
And also tell

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (44:54):
thank you.
Oh my gosh 20 some years agobefore it was a thing I got on a
plane and I went to Peru becauseI had been reading a book a lot
of books about shamans who arein the southern part of our
planet shamans who have beenDoing the same type of work for

(45:15):
millennia.
I mean their ancestors and so onand I was really curious about
the medicine called Ayahuasca,and I did my due diligence and I
Worked with people that I knewwere savvy etc.
And I flew to Peru and stayedjust a week But within that week
I used I worked with thatmedicine.

(45:36):
I took that medicine threedifferent times which is pretty
common.
And it, that experience with themedicine it has, had continued
to inform my life for another 20years.
In other words, I had no desireto do, to work with any other
psychedelic medicines.
I, I, in fact, I went on withdifferent parts of my life.

(45:58):
Fast forward to about a yearago, and a psychiatrist friend
of mine called me and said, hey,there's this training going on
up in Seattle.
Check it out, maybe you're,maybe you'd be interested.
And so I checked it out, andsomething called me to, as a lot

(46:20):
of people know, thesepsychedelic medicines.
that were shut down in 1970, ifyou're younger and you don't
know the history of this.
Psychedelic medicine, the wordpsychedelic means, all it means
is mind expanding.
That's all it means.
And so psychedelic medicineswere used through the 50s and
the 60s.

(46:40):
They were researched, there area thousand research papers and
all kinds of psychiatrists weresaying, yay, we found something
that really works well withthese psychedelic medicines.
And then in the 70s, they quote,escaped the lab, which means
that they got out in the streetand people said, woohoo, you
know, check this out.

(47:00):
This is amazing.
However, A lot of people werehurt because our culture has no,
doesn't have elders to guide uswith these medicines.
It, it had no, there was no,came with no instructions.

Track 1 (47:17):
Right.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (47:18):
And people got hurt, and there was a
lot of political stuff going on,which I do cover in this little
book of mine, which I'll talkabout in a minute.
But, point being, they becameillegal, and a lot of people,
therapists, psychotherapists,said, Oh, now what do we do?
This was such a promising thing,when done correctly.

(47:40):
And so a lot of people at theirown professional peril, and
personal peril, went undergroundwith these medicines, and have
continued seeing clients foryears.
underground illegally Becausethey know how much they help so
fast forward to now now thesemedicines are surfacing again

(48:01):
All new research is being doneand the new research is going.
Oh my gosh.

Track 1 (48:07):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (48:07):
Oh my gosh Look at what we have here
When?
Done safely.

Track 1 (48:14):
I know I've seen some about the neural pathways that
open up about how much easieryour brain can reprogram,
retrain, learn all kinds ofamazing things with anxiety,
depression when done correctly.
Exactly.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (48:32):
yes, yes, yes, and so they're still
illegal, most of them, andpeople are trying to change that
In the United States and in alot of places, because as soon
as the United States, back inthe 70s, as soon as Richard
Nixon did this basically thenthe rest of Europe and everybody

(48:54):
said, okay, we better shut thisdown.
So, that's the There's agentleman that I want to pay
tribute to his name is RickDoblin And he was just one of
those hippie kids on the streetin the 70s and he saw what a
benefit these medicines were andAll he wanted to do was to be

(49:15):
one of the guides thesepsychedelic guides then they
remained illegal and he thoughtoh What do I do and check this
out?
He enrolled in a PhD program inHar at Harvard and specifically
to learn how to work with theFDA to get something approved
again.

Track 1 (49:34):
Oh, wow! Way to go, hippie boy! Yes! Smart! Very
intelligent, hippie

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (49:42):
oh my god, and then he had to choose,
okay, which, which of thesemedicines?
Is it LSD?
Is it psilocybin?
Is it ayahuasca?
Is it MDMA?
And he landed on MDMA because Itis the one that has the most
potential to work with PTSD.
And he's no dummy.

(50:02):
He said, Alright, so I'm goingto, and he didn't say market
this, this is my word.
His focus was, let's help themilitary and let's help the
first responders with theirPTSD.

Track 1 (50:15):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_1119 (50:16):
Knowing that that would get the ears of
the VA and the government and soon.
And so that's the medicine thathe's chosen.
And right now, Becca, as you andI speak, I mean, it's taken
years, years and years and yearsof trials through the FDA.
Step one, step two, step three,through the FDA approval

(50:36):
process.
And right now, next August, Ithink they said August 10th or
August 15th, is when it will beofficial that now MDMA will be
legal for therapeutic use forPTSD.

Track 1 (50:51):
Wow.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (50:53):
And because Rick and all of the
people he's worked with havedone this work and set this
precedent, Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
People are thinking psilocybinwill, in a few more years, be
federally approved for treatmentof depression, especially
treatment resistant depression.
So, that's what's happeningright now, and in the meantime

(51:17):
Alright, so there's a quicklittle Fork in the road I want
to do here.
We're talking about mentalhealth, helping our mental
health, which is critical rightnow.
And there's another group ofpeople who are called well
people.
They're just, they don't have alot of mental health problems,
and those are the people who areon a, quote, spiritual journey.

(51:39):
And that's why they are usingthese medicines, because these
medicines often help us have amystical experience, for lack of
a better term.
Help us have Connect withsomething larger than ourselves.
There's so many ways to saythis.
And, so there's a second reason,at least, for using these

(52:01):
medicines.
One is for your own spiritualpath, and another is to get
yourself better with your mentalhealth and your emotional
health.

Track 1 (52:11):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (52:13):
So, being Being an educator and
being, and I'm learning how tobe a writer, I thought, I want
to write a fiction book.
I want to write a story that isfun to read and embedded in the
story are is education about howto use these medicines
correctly.

(52:33):
About set and setting, and aboutchoosing a person who is
qualified.
to be your guide, et cetera.
And so I created a character,her name came to me when I was
on an airplane coming home fromFlorida last year.
I was sitting at 37, 000 feetand I was thinking, you know, I

(52:56):
really want to write a fiction,but what would it be about?
And I, I swear to you, the name,Jenny P.
Perkins, popped into myawareness and I thought, where
did that come from?
And that's the name of theprotagonist in the book, Jenny
P.
Perkins.
And the name of the book isForty Nine Days.

(53:17):
The Psychedelic Discoveries ofJenny P.
Perkins, Psychonaut Scientist.
So she's a scientist, a staunchneuroscientist, who has a bunch
of magical, quirky things happenthat guide her to try working
with psychedelic medicines tohelp her research.

Track 1 (53:35):
Mm.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (53:36):
So she's got all of those stories
woven into this.
She goes to Peru and has anexperience with ayahuasca.
And of course I'm drawing on myown experience.
She's kind of like my alter ego,but she has these real science,
I've done, I'm geeking out onthe science of all of this.

(53:57):
I have for a couple years now,so in this book, 49 Days, is
real science, real researchresults, and some science that
hasn't yet happened.
I like to think of it as sciencecatching up.
So, some of this is, quote,real, or accurate, factual, and
some of it is magical, and someof it is speculative, and so

(54:19):
it's a mix of what they call,it's fiction, of course, but
they call it magical realism.
It's a genre of magical realism.

Track 1 (54:29):
Becca genre if I've ever heard one

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (54:32):
as soon as I heard about that, I
said, That's it! I can haveboth.
I don't have to make things uptotally like in a fantasy book.
I can weave the two togetherwithin a story form, so

Track 1 (54:46):
I think the best life, the best conversations, the best
friendships, the best loves areboth magic and real.
So what a

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (54:56):
Oh, yes.

Track 1 (54:57):
cool genre, what a cool life.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (55:03):
Yeah.
And,

Track 1 (55:05):
I love that she goes at it from an intellectual
perspective because these,medicines or teachers I think
can be so powerfully helpful,but also they are often
represented in ways that cansort of turn off people that may

(55:26):
really use them because they arepresented only in a vague, sort
of like hippie or recreationalway.
I kind of laughed to myselfbecause I have some people close
to me that did a lot ofrecreational drugs when they
were younger and people wantedto do a journey and they were

(55:47):
like, what the, I mean, you allknow how many grams and how much
we used to just grab a plant andput it in our mouth and see what
happened.
And they were laughing likeeverything has to be so detailed
and measured out now.
But I think going back to,

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (56:03):
hmm.

Track 1 (56:04):
yeah, and also some people got hurt.
It's kind of like, You know,alcohol, there's different doses
for different people.
There's different settings inwhich you are safe to have
feelings come up or which arenot.
It's the same as, you know,having other conversations,
maybe seeing a therapist whoactually knows what they're
doing and knows how to keep yousafe and guide you along.

(56:27):
Or you know, your uncle Joey iskind of a jerk.
You don't want to have the same,you don't want to express
yourself or go deeper in oneposition.
It's Versus the other and I findthat's the way a lot of it is
with doing them recreationallyor having the wrong dose or
being with people who are notfantastic guides

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (56:45):
Or being in an unsafe situation at
a party or, you know.
at somebody's house you don'teven know.

Track 1 (56:51):
Or in a foreign country or with substances that you're
not sure where they're from ormaybe even that have been You
know you know, taken fromindigenous people and not
treated respectfully or paidwell for it.
There's just so many differentways to do it.
But

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (57:05):
Yes, and everything,

Track 1 (57:07):
Oh, sorry.
I was

shuna_2_03-05-2024_1 (57:09):
everything that you Ha ha ha, go ahead.
Ha.
Everything you just Everythingyou just described can lead to
what they call a bad trip.
What is a bad trip?
I mean, a bad trip is whenemotions come up.
And you have no resources therewith you.
You are in this other dimensionof your being, and this stuff is
coming up.

(57:29):
There's nobody there with you.
There's nobody there holdingyour hand or directing you or
letting you know you're safe.
If you have those resources,You're in a safe place, you're
with someone who can see you,care for you help you if you hit
turbulence, as they call it.
Help you move towards theturbulence so that you can break

(57:49):
through it.
If you don't have those things,it's a hell, it's not fun.

Track 1 (57:54):
So what you're doing is basically being a person that
will sit with someone while theyare going.
I mean, I can't even, I can'tthink of a safer person to do
that or a more skilled person inmy, in my world than, than you,
that's a fantastic idea.
When I heard you were doingthat, I thought, okay, so what

(58:16):
do you do that is different?
I'm assuming because I have seenand experienced a spiritual
journey like that.
Hold on,

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (58:26):
Oh, with body mind bridge?

Track 1 (58:28):
I'm like, okay, hold on, let me stop and reroute that
sentence.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (58:32):
Okay.

Track 1 (58:33):
explain to me what you do as you're sitting with people
when they're on a journey or whysomeone would want to go on a
journey versus doing the deeperwork, like body mind bridge, how
do they help each other or howare they different or the same?
Mm

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (58:48):
that is a great question.
I've learned just in this lastyear, all right, so I thought,
okay, I'm moving on to workingwith with psychedelics as a
guide.
as a person who sits with you.
And I thought I was wrapping upmy work with Body Mind Bridge.
Oh no, I am finding out thatthey mesh so beautifully

(59:09):
together.
Now, to answer your question,when a person is using most
medicines, there is an arc tothe journey.
You're, the medicine is startingto come into your system, you're
feeling it, and you're movinghigher into other parts of
yourself.
And you soar.
They use the word soar for awhile.

(59:29):
Body Mind Bridge is not usedduring those times.
It's during the coming out ofthe medicine.
And I'll give you an example.
It makes so much more sense withexamples.
I worked with an MD recently whowas using psilocybin with me.
And when she, and it was herfirst time.
And she had this beautifulexperience.

(59:50):
And as she was coming out of themedicine, And eventually she sat
up and I gave her some water andshe said, Wow, you know, I just
I just learned so much.
And then this woman said, but Idon't know how to help her.
And I thought, what is shetalking about?

(01:00:11):
And so I asked, I thought, Isaid out loud, who is it that
you would like to be able tohelp?
And she said, Oh, my 14 yearold.
And that was, that was themoment when I realized, okay,
Shuna, you have body mind bridgeskills.
See if she wants to work withthat 14 year old while she's
still coming out of the medicinebecause that 14 year old is

(01:00:32):
still right there While she's inthis space and I asked her if
she wanted to to help her 14year old out She said yes I said
go ahead and lay back down ifyou can put your eye mask back
on if you want and Find heragain and from that point on I
just led her to Care for that 14year old and invite her to come

(01:00:53):
home.

Track 1 (01:00:55):
Mm

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:00:55):
So this is a beautiful meshing of
You Buddy, my bridge type workwith psychedelic medicines, and
I have learned just recentlyBecca, somebody told me this.
Somebody said, Suna, you knowyou've been doing psychedelic
work all these years, right?
And it's like didn't occur tome.

(01:01:16):
Because, it's mind, anythingthat's mind expanding, that's
what psychedelic, the wordmeans.
So, Becca, you did this BodyMind Bridge work a few times,
and you went into a verydifferent part of your mind.
You expanded your consciousness,found your younger selves, did
your thing, and that technicallyis mind.
Mind expanding work, psychedelicwork.

(01:01:38):
So, these two fit beautifully iswhat I'm learning.

Track 1 (01:01:42):
I love that definition.
I've heard psychedelicsreferenced just my whole life as
the weird colors and schmoopydoopy, like, wall melting, the
telephone poles are alive andcoming to get me.
Like, it sounds more likepsychosis now that I'm thinking
of what I thought the wordpsychedelic meant.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:02:02):
Oh, yeah.

Track 1 (01:02:04):
so psychedelic means mind expanding,

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:02:06):
Huh.

Track 1 (01:02:07):
things that people see when they're sometimes having
these teachers in them, likepeople speaking and you see
rainbows coming out with theirvoice, tend to do with the
chemicals or just the otherreally lessons that we
experience, right?

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:02:24):
So there's Recreational use and
therapeutic use.
And the therapeutic use piece isnew to people.
They don't know.
I mean, maybe they did mushroomsback in whenever.
And they had a great timetalking to the roses.
Or whatever.
Which, by the way, is a realthing.
It's not a hallucination, butthat's another story.

(01:02:44):
Now we're using these fortherapeutic use, and you're in a
quiet setting, you're withsomebody you trust, you have
headphones on, and incrediblemusic to help guide you, and the
music starts slow, and it buildsand builds, and now you're in
your soaring stage, and now themusic changes, and so As you go

(01:03:06):
into the medicine with your eyemask on, you're able to
visualize, you're able to haveinner conversations.
You're able to learn things andsee things, and you can, if you
want, depending on the medicine,you can speak with your person
who's there.
In fact, I am often a scribe forpeople.
I offer to be a scribe becausethey, they may, they may be

(01:03:28):
learning something that theydon't wanna forget, and they can
say, Uhuna, would you write thisdown?

Track 1 (01:03:34):
Oh, that

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:03:35):
so, and so it's a very different
approach to using thesemedicines.
You know, this, shouldn't Iwrite this down, this is what
happened to me, this is why I'mdepressed today.
I just, I just was shown this,or that, you know, that type of
thing happens.
So, it's a,

Track 1 (01:03:53):
sentences that I want to remember moving forward.
This is what I want to pin on mywall.
This is what I want to keep inmy heart.
Those were the things that whenI was in my journeys, I was
like, how am I going to writethis down?
I don't want to stop the flow towrite this down.
That's why I'm sighing withrelief that you offer that

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:04:08):
Yes, yes.

Track 1 (01:04:10):
can take whatever

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:04:13):
it's a brand new ballgame.
They're calling it thepsychedelic renaissance.
And I do want to take a momentif, do we have a few more
moments?
Okay.
I want to acknowledge theindigenous cultures.
Oh my gosh, I would be remiss ifI didn't at least bring this in.
They have been,

Track 1 (01:04:33):
that.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:04:35):
they have been working with, praying
with, using these medicines forceremony, to connect with
ancestors, to connect with thespirits of the planet.
They have been the keepers.
of these medicines and thisknowledge and along comes

(01:04:58):
western folk and they say ohgoody a new drug let's grab it
and go and let's make money onit and thankfully I'm so glad
Many indigenous voices aresaying, Stop.
Stop this.
They the word just left my mind.
What is it called?
They're asking for somethingreciprocity.

(01:05:20):
Oh, and that word I'm forgettingis really important right now.
But basically, let us be a voicein this.
This isn't just grabbing a plantfrom the rainforest,
synthesizing it down to achemical, putting it in a pill,
and making money on it.

(01:05:41):
There's just somethinginherently wrong with that.
It's so many more indigenousvoices are showing up on the
scene and saying, we want avoice in this.
We want, I think they call itsacred reciprocity, something
along those lines, sacredreciprocity.

(01:06:02):
Acknowledge that these medicinescome from this culture and

Track 1 (01:06:06):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:06:07):
that we have been keeping them for
all of these years.
And yes, these medicines arepowerful healers.
And let me show you a differentapproach, instead of just the
Western approach.
Here, take this pill.

Track 1 (01:06:19):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:06:20):
In fact, they're doing this now.
They're giving, they, meaningWestern medicine, in some
places, are giving people thepill and putting them in a room
by themselves and saying, okay,it'll last about a couple hours.
We'll come back and check onyou.

Track 1 (01:06:37):
Oh, gosh.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:06:38):
It's, it, I just had a soldier tell,
tell me that that's, that's whathe went through.
There was nobody there.

Track 1 (01:06:47):
oh, that's entirely different because the whole
point is connection.
So many of these medicinesconnect you to a higher self or
to yourself or whatever.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:06:57):
Mm hmm.

Track 1 (01:06:58):
To each other and there are points at which you may not
know where to go and you mayneed help.
I love, this reminds me of whatyou said more towards the
beginning of our conversation isthat what our culture has been
missing is the elders to showthe

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:07:15):
Yeah.

Track 1 (01:07:16):
about how to sit with them.
It is different than a chemical.
There's lots of chemical drugsthat we can take and they don't,
they don't.
teach you who you are.
It's different.
So what are ways that we cansupport the Indigenous people in
keeping these medicines sacred?

(01:07:38):
I know I have seen some peopledoing non profits to protect
their rainforests doing thingsto protect the tribal sort of
villages so that if Westernersare going to, are going to go
there for spiritual journeys,both the Tourists are more
protected, but also the tribesare more protected.
So money is one thing we can do.

(01:07:58):
I guess being aware and showingrespect is another thing we can
do.
But from within it, Shuna, whatdo you think is a way we can
show that respect or learn more?

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:08:11):
said is part of it.
And, you know, as you werespeaking, I was going deeper and
deeper in myself, looking forhow to express this.
And what's coming to me in thismoment is, you know what,
Western culture, you gottachange your attitude.
You've got such, I'm speaking toall of us, we have inherited

(01:08:33):
from our ancestors, it's beengoing on for a long time, The
Western culture has thisentitlement thing.
I'm going to go into yourcountry, I'm going to take your
things, I'm going to take yourgold, I'm going to take your
silver, I'm going to take yourwomen.
I mean, I'm going to take, take,take.
And now it's happening withthese medicines, take, take,

(01:08:54):
take.
And so, at a very fundamentallevel, there needs to be a shift
in how we perceive our, thisentitlement thing we've got
going.
How can that happen?
Full circle.
Full circle.
So, use some psilocybin in asafe way and learn that you are
not, learn that you areconnected.

(01:09:17):
I mean, it sounds trite, I getthat.
But when you use these medicinesin a safe, protected way, in a
therapeutic way, and youexperience what you will
experience, you'll, you'll say,Okay, I get it now.
I get it.
It's not just a concept.
I get it.
And you see back to the 70s,Becca?

(01:09:38):
When those hippies and kids andadults were using LSD and all of
these things, they were shownhow much more there is to
themselves and how they areconnected.

Track 1 (01:09:51):
Yeah.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:09:53):
They had to go underground, and now
they're 60 and 70 years old,right?
These kids back then are now 60and 70 years old.
They're in this culture, andthey are assisting, there's many
names I could think of, These 60and 70 year olds are the ones
who are emerging and leading inthe Western culture this so

(01:10:13):
called psychedelic renaissance.
Because back then they saw theconnection, they not just saw,
they felt full body.
Holy cow, I get it now,

Track 1 (01:10:25):
Yeah.
It's not a feeling you'llforget.
It's just not.
I went to England on a writer'sretreat twice with a fantastic
group of authors.
And for one, we were staying inthis amazing place.
It was the oldest still stillput together abbey that was on

(01:10:47):
the on English soil and we gotto stay a couple nights there,
but it was interesting therebecause it was a place available
to be rented like an Airbnb.
They had some upgraded featureslike there was in this room.
In this old room with literallywalls about five feet thick.

(01:11:07):
There was also a little TV andlike a whole lineup of blu ray
DVDs.
And so I'm in this differentcountry, and as I'm looking at
the movies, my cousin wasstanding next to me, and she
could identify all the Americanmade movies.
And they were things like actionmovies and big drama movies.

(01:11:27):
And she looked at the lineup andsaid, Wow, America, just really,
we are the adolescents of theworld, aren't we?
We want to be grandiose.
We charge in before we thinkabout it.
Everything is big, like hugelove, huge heartbreak, big
catastrophe, big.
And she was like, when you lookat our movies next to the other

(01:11:48):
cultures, you really can see it.
That's what I was thinking asyou were speaking.
Like, yes, we come in with theentitlement, that sort of like
adolescent, I'm growing intomyself.
Now I should have what I wanttype of thing.
And I think you said thatbeautifully, beautifully, sorry,
beautifully, the full circle ofwe can take the medicine or do

(01:12:11):
the other options, do the bodymind bridge, do the things that
it takes for us to heal and formore of us to grow into.
wiser versions of ourselves.
We need adults, like theintegrated adults, not
teenagers.
to begin to change the culturefrom within.
We become some of the elders forour own selves, the people you

(01:12:34):
said in their 60s and 70s,bringing it to the next
generation.
If we can, that is present in,in many religious situations,
which can, you know, go for goodor bad, but thank heaven that we
have a context and a culturethat does that in some ways, but
that doesn't have to be the onlyway.
It can be in healing arenas.

(01:12:55):
It can be in other arenas wherewe do the work for ourselves.
And then we come full circle andwe teach the next generation.
And then the culture can startto change.
I think it changes from within.
I think you're exactly right.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:13:07):
hmm, mm hmm, One heart at a time.

Track 1 (01:13:11):
Yes.
One heart at a time.
Shuna, thank you so much foryour time and your explanations
and your wisdom and just your.
Full presence.
I am not surprised that youoffered it, but I am grateful to
be able to offer that experienceto those that were listening.
So, how can people find

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:13:29):
Thank you?
Oh, such a beautiful intervieweryou are.
It's lovely that we didn'tcreate questions ahead of time.
This has been totallyspontaneous and beautifully
right on.
Just lovely, thank you.

Track 1 (01:13:46):
you are welcome.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:13:47):
So my website is shunamorelli.
com and that is spelled S H U NA M O R E L L I dot com.
Thank you.

Track 1 (01:14:01):
Okay, and on that I had nosed around in it and it has
your books, has courses, it hasinformation on the psychedelic
doula work that you do, whichagain, those medicines are not
legal in the United States.
People would have to, you know,find their own medicine at their

(01:14:22):
own risk.
But the, the, the safe sittingwith of someone.
is right on.
So that's how that works in casepeople are wondering.
So I hope you, if you're in theaudience, if you have any
questions, pick up a book or goto a website.
And for now, mostly what I justhave to say is a deep thank you.
Thank you so much for your timeand attention, Shuna.

shuna_2_03-05-2024_111941 (01:14:44):
Oh, thank you, Becca.

Track 1 (01:14:47):
I

shuna_2_03-05-2024_11 (01:14:47):
Blessings to you.
Yeah.
See what I mean?
She's pretty great.
I will put links in the shownotes to all of her books and to
her website.
For any resources, you can alsocheck them out for notes of
today's takeaways.

(01:15:08):
And I'm just so grateful.
She was willing to spend timeand share her wisdom with us.
For next week, it just continuespeople.
I have another one of myfavorite people that has helped
not only my life, but so manylives that I personally know her
name is Cindy Jones.
She has been a mental healththerapist for over 27 years.

(01:15:30):
And a large portion of that hasbeen focusing on trauma therapy.
So she has been really in thetrenches with people in some of
the hardest parts of their livesor recovering from them.
She is a co-owner of a companycalled by tap.
Which she and her dear friendcreated.
When they really looked at theworld at large and how much

(01:15:50):
anxiety and trauma is happeningand realized they could probably
reach more people by creatingdevices that help nervous system
regulation.
So people are able to come backto themselves and use their
tools and their resources.
Then they would be by trying tojust reach one person at a time
in treatment rooms.

(01:16:11):
So she switched out of having afull time therapy practice.
And they now created Bluetoothtappers that help regulate the
nervous system.
Their mission, as I discoveredis to help everyone increase
their resiliency.
Calm.
And focus by regulating theirnervous systems through
bilateral tapping, which ispretty cool.

(01:16:31):
It means that they are puttingdevices in local schools, that
they are sending them to firstresponders.
It means that when there iscommunities in crisis or
trouble, they are trainingpeople how to use them and
reaching many people at a time.
We also discuss other regulationtools because she is a bad-ass
therapist.
She was my therapist and shehelped me move from off the

(01:16:55):
floor in my life.
To standing on my own two feet.
We discussed something calledthe window of tolerance, which
helps us understand whysometimes we can be our calm,
authentic selves.
And sometimes we go out of thatcalm self, into triggers or into
depression and what we can do tohelp ourselves regulate.
We talk about coping skills withanxiety.

(01:17:17):
We talk about bilateralstimulation and the research on
what it does when we move bothsides of our body, walking,
tapping, et cetera, and how itregulates.
So it's a fascinatingconversation.
That is full of things thatCindy always brings, which is
heart understanding,communication and research.
So, you know, I'm going to lovethat.

(01:17:39):
And I hope you love it too.
Tune in next week.