Fostering Resiliency with Cindy Jones

In this episode we learn alongside Cindy Jones, a veteran mental health therapist specializing in trauma, to discuss practical tools and insights for fostering resiliency and regulating the nervous system. Cindy shares her personal journey of turning a professional challenge into an innovative solution, leading to the creation of the Bi-Tapp device, which harnesses bilateral stimulation to help individuals manage their anxiety, stress, and trauma recovery more effectively. She explains the concept of the window of tolerance, highlighting the importance of understanding our nervous system's reactions to stress and offering practical strategies for returning to a state of feeling centered and capable. Who doesn’t need that?! The discussion also covers the benefits of techniques like EMDR therapy and the broader applications of bilateral stimulation in various settings, including schools, first responder communities, and personal wellness practices. Don’t be afraid to re-listen to this one. :)

00:00 Welcome to the Journey of Health and Vitality

01:06 Deep Dive with Cindy Jones: Trauma, Therapy, and Nervous System Regulation

02:59 Exploring the Window of Tolerance and Fostering Resiliency

09:22 The Power of EMDR Therapy and Finding the Right Therapist

17:27 Navigating the Zones of Regulation: From Theory to Practice

31:06 Real-life Strategies for Nervous System Regulation and Recovery

36:58 Unlocking Calm: Bilateral Tapping and Movement Strategies

38:15 Practical Tips for Managing Stress and Anxiety

38:48 The Power of Swallowing and Other Quick Calm Techniques

39:08 Deep Breathing and Mindfulness: When They Work Best

43:25 ByTap: A Revolutionary Device for Stress Management

48:51 Expanding the Impact: From Trauma Recovery to Everyday Challenges

49:29 Personal Stories of Transformation: The Impact of Bi-Tapp

54:37 Adapting to Individual Needs: The Versatility of Bi-Tapp

58:47 Future Directions: Expanding Access to Bilateral Tapping

01:04:00 Reflections and Takeaways: Fostering Resiliency Through Innovation

To order a kit or for any other info about Bi-Tapp, click here:  https://bi-tapp.com/

Coupon code DRBECCA20

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the WhatReally Makes a Difference
podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Becca Whittaker.
I've been a doctor of naturalhealth care for over 20 years
and a professional speaker onhealth and vitality, but
everything I thought I knewabout health was tested when my
own health hit a landslide and Ibecame a very sick patient.

(00:22):
I've learned that showing up forour own health and vitality is a
step by step journey that wetake for the rest of our lives.
And this podcast is aboutsharing some of the things that
really make a difference on thatjourney with you.
So grab your explorer's hatwhile we get ready to check out
today's topic.
My incredible guest network andI will be sharing some practical

(00:45):
tools, current science andancient wisdom that we all need,
no matter what stage we are atin our health and vitality.
I've already got my hat on andmy hand out, so let's dive in
and we can all start walkingeach other home.

(01:06):
Hello.
I am so grateful to bring youtoday.
My conversation with CindyJones.
She has been a mental healththerapist for about 27 years.
So almost three decades ofexperience.
And she specializes in trauma.
She's worked with individuals,families, agencies, and
communities at large.

(01:27):
Through some of the hardesttimes in their lives and bring
such a wealth of experienceannex.
And bring such a wealth ofknowledge and experience about
some of the most vital thingsthat we can do as we're moving
through trauma, or as we'reregulating our nervous systems
in general.
She found that as she wasworking with individuals,

(01:47):
agencies, or companies, she knewthere was more that she could be
doing to help people balancetheir nervous systems.
Outside of the treatment room.
So either if they couldn'tafford therapy or if there was
just too many people to see, shebegan to learn about nervous
system regulation.
And she, and one of her bestfriends developed a company.

(02:09):
Called by tap.
Tap.
They created Bluetooth tappers.
So you can put one on eitherside of your body and the
bilateral stimulation does somuch to regulate our nervous
systems.
She talks about why that'simportant.
What can happen as we're doingbilateral movements, like either
tapping or walking or runningand how that helps our nervous

(02:30):
system balance and why that'seven important.
We talk about getting into whatshe calls our window of
tolerance, and that is just suchgood information to know.
You know, there's times when wecan remember our tools when we
can self-regulate when we feelcalm, collected, aware, present,
and like ourselves.
And then there's times when wejust cannot seem to remember a

(02:50):
dang thing that we know.
About how to regulate.
She talks about why that is andwhat we can do to come back to
ourselves.
I think the theme for thisconversation would be fostering
resiliency.
And really who doesn't need thatright now.
Right?
Who doesn't need that right now?
So a few key things to reviewabout fostering resiliency.

(03:13):
One is to know your window oftolerance.
That window is when we feel likewe are.
In our calm, authentic self andany other option, whether we go
high or we go low, as she talksabout makes it so that we cannot
really access our tools as well.
So I think it's wonderful toknow when you are in that state

(03:35):
and when you're in your windowof tolerance.
And then just to recognize whenyou're out of it.
And develop some tools to do so.
The by tap tappers that she hascreated are one of my best tools
for helping myself get back intothat state.
And she shared a code with me,which is Dr.
Becca 20 that I can share withyou and anybody that wants to

(03:56):
check them out can get$20 off.
So that's D R B E C C a, thenumber 20.
And you can get 20 bucks off ofthat.
There's also, if you're outsideof Utah, a big discount on
shipping, there's lots of waysthat They are already devices
that are well worth the money,but those are some other ways
that you can save a little bitmore.
Other things that you can do ifyou don't have the buy tap

(04:18):
devices are things that are justbilateral stimulation.
That means you're stimulatingboth sides of the body.
So going on walks is fantastic.
You can even do cleaning.
Many of us know the angrycleaning sort of thing, just
clean with both sides of yourbody.
And you'll be fine.
Just use both hands and you'llbe fine.

(04:39):
Another thing that I thought wasreally great to review was
trauma therapy The value of EMDRtherapy.
Again, she was a regionaldirector and coordinator for
many years.
And I know personally, so manypeople who've been helped with
that technique helps you kind ofgo into your deeper mind.
And also uses the bilateralstimulation.

(04:59):
And I want to give another shoutout to that and to therapists
who are well-trained.
And using that technique withindividuals, families, or
groups.
So.
without further ado, let's getinto it.
Here's Cindy Jones.

Track 1 (05:12):
I am so grateful to be in the studio today with Cindy
Jones.
There are amazing therapists inthis world that do a lot of good
for a lot of people, but Cindyis the cut above even that.
She's a person that changed mylife and is a person that also
teaches other therapists andtrains them in trauma specific

(05:36):
techniques.
And not only that, but one ofthe best listeners I've ever
met.
So I'm excited to share herwisdom with you today.
Cindy Jones, welcome.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (05:45):
Thank you.
I'm glad to be here.
It's an honor.

Track 1 (05:48):
So I'm just going to dive right in with a few
questions and we're going tomove in through therapy and then
we'll also get to talking aboutnervous system regulation, how
we can better be with peopleourselves or our loved ones or
coworkers when they are in orout of what you call zones of
tolerance.
And then we'll also talk about adevice that you helped invent

(06:11):
and that you are marketing tohelp people specifically be able
to speak.
Day in a zone where they canlearn and process and function.
So we have great things to talkabout today,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1 (06:21):
That sounds great.

Track 1 (06:23):
Okay.
First thing I wanted to talkabout is.
I met you because I think a lotof people can relate and we can
work that in through aconversation.
So I grew up thinking that ifyou see a therapist, that meant
you were openly admitting youwere crazy and that was not a
good thing.
Like you can be crazy, just noone else can know you're crazy.

(06:45):
And I, I know that word crazy isa loaded word if you're talking
to a, a real person.
Therapist, but that was what Ithought and I've heard it so
many times and I also heardother things like, you shouldn't
see a therapist because you'lljust have to drag yourself
through the mud.
All the family stuff that shouldbe left in the closet, you have
to take out and examine.

(07:05):
And I believed that.
And I only,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (07:08):
taught that.
I think it's been taught by thegenerations before.
Yeah.

Track 1 (07:13):
I think now.
What a blessing it would havebeen if the generations before
had had the tools to be able todiscuss things like people are
discussing now and be able tobreak out of their patterns.
And it sometimes felt muddy, butit mostly felt like taking mud
globs off.
It take like, it felt liketaking weights off and not

(07:33):
having to work so hard to slogthrough the mud.
I didn't realize I was alreadyslogging through the mud in.
And the reason I say that isbecause I know there are
listeners in the audience thathave heard those belief systems
and either moved through themthemselves and found a therapist
if they need one or who arestuck.

(07:54):
But I, I have some questions foryou that I'm wondering if you
can kind of help untangle.
So I, since I didn't want to seea therapist, I was working with
energy workers or I was workingwith, um, you know, trying to go
into my shadow work, trying todo enough work, like in a
religious setting that I just,would believe enough in

(08:16):
something else that I could letgo of my guilt and shame.
Right?
There, there's all kinds of waysto, to handle trauma.
And I had a lot of it.
But the way that I was goingabout it, I ended up working
with someone who had really goodintentions.
I know her still full of love,really good intentions, but did
not really understand trauma.
And what happened is I becamesort of like dependent on her to

(08:39):
feel better.
But I ended up ultimately in mylife, feeling good.
worse and worse and worse.
And another friend found me in apretty bad state, literally
picked up her phone and was likeso we're going to call my
friend, Cindy, dialed yournumber and you were so kind with
me.
I was so scared to come in thatyou literally had me meet with

(09:02):
you just to see the office, notto have.
I have an appointment, which Istill think is such a dear thing
for you to do.
And then when I walked in youroffice and I didn't die, I
figured that maybe I would havean appointment.
And after that firstappointment, I figured maybe I
would have a second and werolled through there and it was
life changing.
My question for you is how canpeople know if they have found

(09:27):
the right therapist or if theyeven need therapy?
Like, what do you, what do youwork through on your own?
Or what do you show up to atherapist to get?
And how do you know that youhave the right one?
I know some people have triedand they're like, I don't think
it did anything.
Some people have tried and it's

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1530 (09:44):
I think those are great questions.
Well, I think it depends whatmaybe you would be going to
therapy for.
So, I'll just maybe just say myhistory and then try to weave
all that in.
So I've been a therapist almost28 years, so over 27 and
probably the first 17 years I, Iwas trained in just the

(10:06):
therapies at the time, but Ijust, you know I was a preseason
therapist when I was introducedto EMDR therapy and that was
literally because I had a clientthat had such complex trauma.
I did everything I knew to do tohelp her.
And then I was just reallyhonest with her that I just felt
like she deserved more.

(10:26):
then just managing her symptoms.
I really wanted to see if therewas something out there that
could actually resolve them,like resolve PTSD.
And she actually went and foundan EMDR therapist and she came
back and she, she's, it'sactually from a client.
She just said, you've got tolearn this therapy.
And so I studied it for probablya year.

(10:47):
Cause when I was in graduateschool back in the 1990s, long
time ago,

Track 1 (10:51):
It doesn't seem that long ago.
Can I just say, it's weird thatthat's a long time ago.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (10:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But they, EMDR therapy was newenough that it didn't have even
a decade of research behind it.
It was just new enough.
And so there, it wasn't a reallya therapy that was well
respected at that time.
But since then it's, it's becometremendously respected and it's,
you know, done worldwide andthere's so many different
protocols.
And so I could just tellimmediately that it was a better

(11:20):
therapy than I had been trainedin as a trauma therapist.
And I heard another therapistsay this, that it's kinder and
because you can move throughthings more quickly than the old
school exposure therapytherapies.
And so.
When people decide what do Ineed to go to therapy or not, I
would just say if you haveunprocessed trauma, there's
things that have maybe happenedand because those things have

(11:42):
happened, you can see maybe howthey show up today.
How that would be is I can thinkof a lady, she was in her
eighties that I saw and she, shedid her best cause back then
they, you know, they didn't gethelp.
And when she finally did herwork, she realized in her
eighties, which is so brave thatshe needed to call her Children
in who were now grandmothers andjust do some beautiful repair

(12:04):
work with them because shedidn't know that life could be
so much better.
And then she realized she shecould have been a mom that was
more connected and more engaged.
And so she just did some repairwork with them.
And so I would just say ifyou're just despite your best
intentions, you're stillstruggling.
Or if you have stress patternsthat you just can't through even

(12:24):
though you really want to, likea, an example, like work I've
had to actually do on my own,like as a client on people
pleasing then we just have tosee where the source of that
comes from to reprocess that.
Because otherwise You'reprobably just managing symptoms
and I just believe all of usdeserve better than that.
And so that would be myindicator if someone needs

(12:45):
therapy.
I think two people can gothrough the same thing and one
might need a little bit of extrahelp and someone might not.
So I think it's individual.
And then the second, when you goto a therapist, If you're going
to a trauma therapist, then I, Ipersonally would say talk
therapy is not enough.
Just liken that to if you had abroken arm or something and you
go to the ER and they just say,tell me the story of what

(13:07):
happened.
And, and you tell them the storylike, Oh, well, thanks for
sharing and your time is up.
You

Track 1 (13:11):
Yes.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_15 (13:12):
you have to have, yeah, yeah.
There has to be something morethan telling your story.
So I think telling your story isimportant, but if that's the
most you get from a therapist,it's not enough.
And so it has to be a good fit.
I think you have to feel safeand comfortable with that
therapist, but they also need tobe competent.
Because if they're competent,but it's not a good fit, you

(13:34):
probably won't go back.
And if all they do is help you.
feel better, like it's a nicefriend session, then you might
feel good, but I don't know thatyou're gonna get the movement.
So I think you need that balanceof both.

Track 1 (13:46):
Yeah.
Oh, wonderfully, wonderfullysaid.
Wonderfully said.
I feel like a big thing that yousaid was helping you feel safe
and also looking at the supportthat you're getting.
So one thing that I noticed waswhen I started actually going in
to you to skilled therapy workand getting tools, I noticed

(14:06):
that I was maybe stillexperiencing a trigger, but
instead of having the triggerlike overcome me and take my
life off course because I justcould not manage it.
It at least helped me slow downenough and give me the tools
enough to ask why like, or whatis here and what is this and

(14:27):
when did this start?
And I remember making notes.
I had to make notes for youevery week.
Of, okay, this came up and youknow, rate it and say, what was
driving it and I could start tosee my patterns and then we
would know what to go work on.
And like you said, peoplepleasing, you know, people
pleasing or trauma from specificthings.
And when I could go in with askilled person, I wasn't as

(14:50):
afraid to go in.
And once I started looking at itand repairing it, especially
through EMDR means then it'slike you were watching it happen
almost on, on screen, but withsomeone beside you and I wasn't
going to get lost in it.
And I began to trust myself tocome through it.
And I think that was a massivething for me to begin to feel

(15:13):
was just trust in myself that Iwon't get lost in something and
that there is a way through andthat there are people that are
trustworthy that can help me.
So like you can find your legs alittle bit more underneath you
instead of getting lost in it.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_15 (15:29):
No, that's beautiful.
And I, you know, part of whatyou're describing you got to a
point where we want people toget to a point where they know
what a trigger is, because thosehappen unexpectedly.
And so you, You can't alwaysprepare.
I mean, sometimes, you know, ifI go into this situation, I
might struggle, but you don'talways know when that's going to
happen.
And so as people make progress,then, then you recognize, Oh,

(15:51):
I'm triggered.
Some people have reactions anddon't even know that's a
trigger.
So

Track 1 (15:56):
Let's talk about it.
Yeah.
Let's talk about it.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (15:59):
Well, if you work with say if I work
with someone that's just had atrauma and then they hear a song
and then that reminds'em of thetrauma and then they're having a
huge reaction, but they don'tunderstand it.
But their nervous system haslinked that song to the trauma.
So so part of therapy is.
Obviously, we've got toreprocess the trauma, but in
between appointments, your, yournervous system is sometimes

(16:21):
still overactive to certainthings because it's trying to
protect you when there's nodanger anymore.
And so then you've got to havethe ability like you were
describing to be able to havesome tools to regulate your
nervous system to get back towhere you feel safe and calm and
confident.
So, cause we don't want peopleto live in a overwhelmed
situation.
Your nervous system really can.

(16:43):
and I think that's importantthat people know that.

Track 1 (16:47):
Yes, let me just add my extreme hands up, yes,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (16:53):
Ha

Track 1 (16:53):
to knowing how important it is that your
nervous system can recover.
Because it's tempting I thinksometimes, especially if you
know you've had trauma and youknow you've tried a bunch of
things to get over it and stillyou're getting triggered.
I've talked to many people, notjust myself, that felt kind of
lost and felt like they mightjust be screwed up for the rest
of their life.
And working with you is when Irealized.

(17:14):
That doesn't have to be true.
Part of that is you taught mesome tools.
So I'm wondering if you canshare that with the audience
too.
You talk about a few things thatI found very helpful.
One was the window of tolerance.
Let's talk

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (17:26):
Mm hmm.

Track 1 (17:27):
Can you tell me what it looks like when a person's in
the window of tolerance or whenthey're in red or when they're
in blue?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (17:33):
Yeah, and just Just so everybody
knows, this term has actuallybeen around a couple decades,
but I think it takes about thatlong for people to start to like
it, to get part of the generalawareness.
And in schools, they'll call itzones of regulation.
So it's actually even taughtnow, like to preschool, not
preschool probably, butelementary school kids up.

(17:53):
So then it's beautiful.
Yeah, it's great.
So what?
I love It

Track 1 (17:57):
years old.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (17:58):
Right.
Well, it was to me learning itfor the first time in all these
trainings because before I hadEMDR therapy training I promise
you, I just did my best and I, Idon't feel like it was bad
therapy, but once you findbetter, you're just like, wow.
And so that's how I felt andthat's actually the first time I
learned about the window oftolerance.

(18:19):
It was actually in thistraining.
initial training.
I've had several since then, butit just was a game changer for
me.
So what it means is your windowof tolerance you can call that
the green zone.
It's just, it's the level, it'swhat you can handle in terms of
stress during the day, likeit's, it's your ability to
tolerate the stressors coming atyou and the different things

(18:41):
you've got to deal with everyday.
And it actually fluctuates.
So if like, say last night youhad kids that were sick all
night and then let's just sayyou had a full day of work and
then you're doing a podcast,then your window's going to be
more narrow than if your kidsare doing well.
I see what I mean.
So it just changes.
But But if you're chronicallyhave a window of tolerance that
can't manage very much, thenwhat it means is you're going to

(19:03):
be dysregulated more often or ifburnout sets in, then it's just
hard to get back to that window.
So green just means if I wasthinking about.
Let's just take it aboutstudents or children.
It just means they can engage inlearning.
They'll listen to you.
They're they can manage theiremotions.
They have flexible thinking.

(19:23):
And that's actually would be foradults too.
So if you're talking to someoneand they're engaged with you,
they're paying attention, likewe're both in green right now.
And so this conversation is justso important.
It's just has a nice flowbecause we're both in green.
So if someone goes into red justthink of it like zero to ten.
So zero, one, two, three, thatmight be light red.
You can probably still manageand get back into green, but if

(19:46):
it goes higher, things areprobably going to go south
pretty fast.
And so that would just mean ifsomeone starts to get trigger,
trigger would be red.
It'd be sympathetic nervoussystem activation going to start
to go up.
It would be if you're angry, itwould be if you're anxious, if
you're overly stressed.
And so when that stuff starts tohappen, you're going to have a
harder time, even if you've beentaught really good coping

(20:09):
skills, to even remember what todo.
At lower levels red, you'll tendto Be able to pull them up but
higher just think about whenkids are really upset and then
you're like take a deep breathand they're like shut up like
it's just yeah I can't! sothey're thinking it's really
rigid like I can't do that andthey get upset but adults do it
too so red is just an overactivation.

(20:30):
We need it if we're actuallytruly.
in stress, right?
In danger.
Like if there's a dangeroussituation, we need that fight or
flight to kick up.
But if, if it's not that we wantto help it recover quickly to
get back in that window oftolerance, because that's where
everybody functions at theirbest.
And then no one goes, no onedrops down into, it's called

(20:50):
hypoarousal or the blue zone.
So it goes, green is in themiddle and then red's above it.
Everyone goes up and then downwould be the blue zone.
And so if people are like, whatdoes that mean?
Well, in trauma, it means fightflight is up and then freeze
would be the blue where you justthink of like a rabbit sees you
like it, it freezes.
Like that's, that's blue.

(21:11):
But for us in everyday living,it would be if you've had a
really stressful day, whetherit's just with your kids at home
or at work, And you come home atnight and you just really don't
want to engage.
You want to kind of be alone.
You don't, you just, you justkind of want to do your own
thing, but it means isolating.
It might mean that you eat, youknow, overeat.

(21:32):
It might mean that you bingeNetflix for five hours.
It just means you're droppingdown and you're just really not
probably engaging in things thatare connecting or very helpful.

Track 1 (21:44):
I love that you're delineating that out into normal
movements we might, into normalmovements.
Normal activities that we mightsee people do because when I
think freezer fawn, I think ofwhen it goes a little further
than that and say autistic kidswhen they kind of like drop out
and go in defense mode or theynumb and cannot speak,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (22:05):
Mm hmm.

Track 1 (22:06):
and can't function.
Or I think of like my nervoussystem got so dysregulated later
in life because of illness and abunch of other things.
that I would literally juststart to lose power in my limbs.
So it was like a sincereshutting down.
And I've learned that is morecommon than I realized that

(22:27):
there's the, okay, now I need tocalm it down, which seems like
a, kind of more responsible bluezone, but then it can drop
further into now I'm going todisassociate and further into
now I am not going to move.
Now there's like the lights arenot on in here.
So I guess a gradient in the redand in the

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (22:48):
Yeah, that's right.
So if the green is say zero andthen zero to 10 up and zero to
10 down, then I think mostpeople can manage zero to three
pretty easy because nobody's,you know, kumbaya on it all day
long.
So we can manage some distressup and down.
It's just if it stays up toolong or drops down.

(23:09):
The other thing I would just sayis people that have had a lot of
trauma, nobody goes green toblue.
So even if you go up for a blip,Your nervous system knows how to
shut stuff down really fast, andthat's people that have chronic
trauma.
And that's, that's a little bitwhat you know, can happen, like
where you just feel disabled.
And that's just your nervoussystem.
It thinks it's protecting you.

(23:29):
So if you think about.
a gazelle and a cheetah.
Like if a gazelle is running,it's running because that it's
not going to fight a cheetah.
Like instinctively it knows, soit's running.
But then if it gets caught, itflops over as if it's dead
because it it's actually itsbest chance at survival.
And so our nervous systems doingsimilar things, but we're not at

(23:51):
that level of danger.
And so that's why we want tomake sure as a trauma therapist,
if that keeps happening, thenwe, I personally believe then
let's, let's get under there andsee what's, what's driving that.
Let's get to the root of it.
And I would never say.
that you shouldn't do energywork or anything else.
I think everybody has theirpiece and I feel like if anyone,

(24:13):
including therapists, saythey're the answer for
everything, I don't believethat's true.
I think we all work together andI think everybody working
together, then a person can findout really what is the best fit.
I don't think anyone has theanswer.
We're all working together and Ithink that's important to say.
And then I just think as youyou.

(24:34):
As you spend more time in green,you'll actually recognize
quicker when you're in red andtake action to get back into
green, because if you don't,your stress patterns, habits
will kick in to like help you tohelp you settle down.
So for example, if I get toooverwhelmed, if I don't manage
that quickly, then I'm actuallygoing to start procrastinating.

(24:54):
That might be me surfing on theinternet or something, but I
will not be doing what I need tobe doing to be productive.
And that would be what lightblue looks like for me.
So the sooner I can manage that,the less time I spend out of my
window because everybody's theirmost productive, best self in
green.
Mm

Track 1 (25:12):
say to one thing.
To circle back to that, to noone therapy of any kind being
the answer for

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (25:21):
Right.

Track 1 (25:22):
is that, I think doing some of the work that I was
doing before with someone whowas well intentioned but maybe
not as knowledgeable was that Idid end up getting in
dysregulated states and then Iwould need to depend on her to
bring me out of them.
Where the difference in thatversus someone who's very
skilled is that I felt like youwere coaching me how to bring

(25:46):
myself out of it.
Coaching me by being there withme and helping me if I couldn't
do it but helping me understandSo that, again, I could have my
legs under me.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (25:56):
Yeah, I think you've, I, I just know
that people, I mean, people needto have the ability to self
regulate and know how to dothat.
But at the same time, if someonekeeps dysregulating, then we
know something's underneath it.
So like if a doctor is workingwith someone, they're just
getting like a, It's like achronic infection, and they
think it's at the tip of theirfinger, but if they follow the

(26:16):
red line, they'll, they'llactually see where the source
is.
So that's a little bit what wedo in EMDR therapy.
So we're not healing anybody.
We're just facilitatingtreatment.
We're facilitating healing thattakes place when, when you can
do it.
Like if I go through somethingstressful but I'm in my window,
I'm probably okay.
So it's just being able to justthose times when it was too big.

(26:38):
Trauma just means it was too bigfor me to handle whether someone
thinks it's too big or not.
If, if my nervous system said itwas too big, then, then that's
feedback for me that I need tolook at that and it's okay when
that happens because I think ithappens to all of us.

Track 1 (26:53):
I have a confession to make.
Every time that you said windowof tolerance, and still, I'm
giggling now because my mind isdoing it again.
I like love the matrix so muchthat every time you said window
of tolerance, I pictured an openwindow and I could see Trinity
from the matrix, like runningand jumping through the window,

(27:14):
right?
Like it's, it's free passage.
And every time you talked aboutbeing above that window in the
red, I pictured, like, as if Iwas Trinity and I was running
towards that open window, but itwas closed and I'd, like, bash
my head on it, like, ah, thatdidn't work.
And every time we talked aboutthe blue zone, I pictured, like,
if the window then, like, thebottom of it had dropped out

(27:37):
where there was just nothing todo.
And then everybody's freezing inthe room.
And that was a part of how Igauged, honestly, if I was in my
window of tolerance.
Because what we would do in ourfamily.
before I met you was if someonewas dysregulated.
Like one of my children had abig problem with anger when she

(27:57):
was little.
And if she was angry or upset,A, I had my own things to deal
with about that.
Like my own judgments on myselfas a mother, if she was angry or
judgments about what anger was,if that was acceptable or not
acceptable.
Right.
And I learned how to come back.

(28:17):
to look at myself before Ireacted to her.
That was another gift I got inworking with you.
But also what I did, what wewould have done before we met
you is try to coach her out ofthat, in that moment, like try
to talk to her about it, figureout what was going on, help what
she needs.
And she'd be like, just a messin front of us and super even

(28:38):
more annoyed that we were tryingto talk to her and figure it out
because then she'd feel evenmore powerless.
And when you coached me intowhat red brain looks like and
equated red brain with a stopsign, like if I'm talking to
someone and they aredysregulated, I stop like
emotional safety.
A in that relationship hasstopped because they're likely

(29:00):
to say something that.
They don't mean,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (29:04):
that's when we all say things,

Track 1 (29:05):
Yes.
And so it was a stop for melike, whoa, do not engage in
that way.
Don't solve it.
But the other stop sign wasdon't try to solve anything
right there.
And when I learned it also withmyself, like I am in red, this
is what is happening.
My head is hitting that window.
I.
I'm not my, I don't have my fullcapacity.

(29:26):
When I learned to stop andregulate instead of trying to
shame myself back into thewindow or just power through
back through the window, mygosh, like hours were saved of
what it takes to fall completelyapart and then have to repair
and then go back and redo.
Yeah.
I, I feel like learning that Ithought I was wasting time by

(29:51):
not trying to fix it quickly.
It turns out I was wasting timeby trying to move too quickly
through it instead of justlistening to actually where I
was and learning how to bringmyself back into the proper zone
where we actually have ourmental tools and our resourced
wiser self.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (30:08):
Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of
research now because they cansee what happens, you know, to
our brain when we'redysregulated.
And so when you're calm, theleft and the right hemispheres,
they're like, Right now they arejust working together
communicating just seamlessly.
But when you get stressed thatit's the amygdala, it's you got
one on each side, but it's, itwants to like, take over in the

(30:31):
driver's seat.
And so when that happens, evenif you just make it about test
anxiety, you Even if someone'ssuper well prepared, but that
test anxiety gets too high, theyactually can't remember what
they studied.
And that's just because thatthinking brain is not in the
driver's seat.
And so like with your daughter,that's why she couldn't come up
with solutions and answersbecause that part of her brain

(30:53):
is actually not working verywell.
And so if we can help her.
yourself, all of us justregulate first, then that, see,
then that thinking brain comesback online and then they can
actually engage in a moreproductive conversation.

Track 1 (31:06):
So how do we Regulate.
We know what it looks like nowif someone has gone up.
We know what it looks like whensomeone goes down.
Oh, before we talk aboutregulation, I wanted to ask if
you've gone down into the bluezone, do you have to pop back up
in the red and know that's kindof coming to get regulated?
Or can you go straight frombeing perhaps like disassociated

(31:27):
or wanting to step out just backinto regulation?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (31:30):
I, I've seen both in my office.
You know, if I'm working withsomeone that's had trauma and
they go from, it's fine and itwas okay to anger.
I see that as healthy.
Like they're not going to stayin anger, but, but that's a more
appropriate response than theflat, everything's fine when
it's completely not fine.
And so,

Track 1 (31:51):
I had to learn how to do that.
I did not know how to be angry.
In fact, I remember when yousaid, Becca, we we needed to get
my sister here because she is mymost trusted confidant.
And I remember we waited and yousaid, well, once you learn, or
once you address your anger,we'll be able to make some
headway.
And I'm like, I'm not angry.

(32:11):
I remember looking at you like,what?
I'm happy.
I'm fine.
And you were like, okay, well,When your sister's here and we
address your anger, I'm like,I'm not angry.
It's fine.
I don't ever feel angry.
It's fine.
And whoa, when we got there,there was an atomic bomb of
anger.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_15 (32:28):
and that's just a protector part,
you know, trying to managethings for you.
So it's trying to be helpfulwhich at some point in your
life, it probably was adaptiveand helpful.
But then as we are in our adultselves we want kind of like a
computer update.
We want to update our systems sothat your authentic self can
take the lead.
But in everyday living, I thinkpeople can go from blue to

(32:49):
green.
And so if you're in blue.
If it, if it's really dropping,it's probably going to be hard
to want to do anything that'shealthy.
Right?
So if you have a choice betweeneating this kind of food or
something healthy, it's justeasier to choose the creature
comfort stuff.
So it's just harder to do thethings we've been taught.
But if you did have a goodfriend or family member that you

(33:12):
could just go for a walk, okay.
So, when you're in blue, it's,it's harder to, high red is the
same, but let's talk about bluefirst.
It's really hard to do anything,that you know is healthy to do.
So to get out of blue, whatseems to be the fastest, it
wouldn't be to read books.
See what I mean?

(33:32):
You can't absorb, you can'tabsorb anything.
And so movement.
So if you could get outsidewould even be the best movement.
and connection are the twothings that seem to help people
start to come up.
So connection doesn't have to bea person.
It could be connection with a,an animal, like if you have a
dog or a cat that you love.

(33:52):
Connection could be in nature,but if you could just, and
connection with a personobviously is great.
So if you could just connectionand movement, that would be
great.
And if you can't do movementoutside, maybe it's bad weather,
then you can stretch and do afew things You know, wherever
you are, but those two thingswill help you the very most get
out of

Track 1 (34:11):
You were the person that first taught me that and
can I

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1 (34:13):
yes.
Mm

Track 1 (34:16):
and different arenas of my life over and over a mentor
of mine was talking about themost effective things for our
longevity and our nervous systemregulation, he said,
exceptionally smart neurologistand he said, people often get it
wrong.
We think if something is notfeeling okay with us, we
probably should take moresupplements or eat more.

(34:38):
And he said, you can eat.
All the organic blueberries youwant, but if you are upset at
your boss, and you're upset atyour Relationship, and you're
eating organic blueberries byyourself angrily in the kitchen
It is not going to do nearly asmuch as it is if you grab a
friend you go for a walk Youtalk about that boss and that
situation and work through maybewhat to do Or somebody is just

(35:02):
with you as you're moving.
It does so much better.
And then when you come back toyour kitchen, you can eat the
organic blueberries.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (35:09):
That's really well

Track 1 (35:10):
the movement and connection is first.
Sometimes when I as we learnedthis and applied it, my husband,
knew, started to know what itwas like when I looked like I
was getting overwhelmed and Iwas dropping

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (35:23):
Mm hmm.

Track 1 (35:23):
I love to dance.
So he would put on music and ifit was bad and I didn't want to
dance, he'd be like, justshoulders, Becca.
And he'd do it like, and lookgoofy.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1 (35:34):
Huh.

Track 1 (35:35):
kind of make me mimic him a little just to start to
move.
I think you're right.
I think you're right.
Yeah.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-202 (35:46):
That's, that's beautiful, like, because
he's there and he's doing it.
It's like what you would do youknow, if a kid was struggling,
you're, if you can stay in greenwith them, if you can stay in
green, they're hopefully throughmirror neurons too.
They're just going to start toto start to naturally gravitate
towards green.
But the movement and the musicthat you love, see, that's all
beautiful.
That's wonderful if you're goingup.

(36:07):
So just remember, everybody goesup before they drop down.
And so if you start to go up,you just really want to pay
attention.
What does it mean to be in redzone?
So for me, it would mean, I cantell that my heart rate's
starting to get faster.
And also I just start to feeloverwhelmed.
Those are my low.
If I'm starting to feeloverwhelmed, then I know I'm

(36:29):
starting to leave my window oftolerance.
And so I, as a trauma therapist,I have played with the order of
how, like what's going to helpsomeone the very most.
And so people can givelifestyle, lifestyle advice.
advice, which is good.
I mean, obviously if you areworking out, if you're getting
enough sleep, if you can'tsleep, if you're stressed,
you're not going to sleep aswell.

(36:49):
But you know, and you haveconnection, you have hobbies,
like they say all the things todo.
I think those things are trueand they're important, but in
the moment, what can you do?
And the very best thing youhonestly can do is it's called
bilateral tapping, or you can,you can call it bilateral
coordinated movement.
So walking, would be bilateralcoordinated movement.

(37:10):
But the reason why is when yournervous system's calm, your left
and right hemisphere, theyreally are just there working
together.
And that middle part, it'scalled the corpus callosum.
It's just like a telephone.
It's just transferringinformation to the different
parts of your brain.
When you're calm, that happenslike seamlessly.
It's just happening in thebackground.
But when you're stressed thatthat actually, It's just think

(37:32):
of like you're driving, thingsare great, and then you hit the
emergency brake.
Well, we want to put the brakedown if we don't really need it.
And so if, and we'll talk abouttappers later, but if you don't
have tappers, then you, if youcan just move your feet.
even just in your shoes.
No one has to know you're doingit.
Just wiggle your toes back andforth.
That actually is a signal toyour brain that I'm stressed,

(37:55):
but I'm safe.
It has to register safety.
And so if you can do that, oryou can tap your hands back and
forth on your thighs.
Some people would say abutterfly hug where you cross
your hands and you're justtapping back and forth.
But if you're in public, you'reprobably not going to do that
one.
But if you can move your feetback and forth, that'll actually
help you start to calm down.

(38:15):
The second one is movement.
So if I'm teaching, say collegekids or high school kids, get
ready to take the ACT andthey're smart, but they have
test anxiety.
Then I just teach them that.
So if you come across somethingdifficult, just start tapping
your feet.
Back and forth, or put yourhands under the desk, start
tapping, because that settlesyou down.
And then from there, just domovement.

(38:36):
So if they're in a situationwhere they really can't get up
and walk around, they couldshrug their shoulders, they
could stretch, they could movetheir legs out, because if you
can move voluntarily, yournervous system knows you're
safe.
And so, and then the third thingis swallow.
And there's a lot of researchthat if you can swallow, so
maybe if you had water next toyou or something, just take a

(38:56):
drink, and it actually settlesdown that parasympathetic
activity pretty fast.
If you didn't, then I would chewgum.
If you're in a setting where youcan't, that's not appropriate,
or you don't like gum, then youjust have to make yourself
swallow.
So those three things, I thinkare the number one thing you can
do to settle it down and thenfrom there, of course, deep
breathing, connection if youhave a mindfulness practice, all

(39:18):
those things are good, but youwon't do them if you're too
heightened.
And if people like that's nottrue, I would say ask someone
that's had a panic attack in themiddle of it.
Can they take a deep breath?
And the answer is they can't.
So, you just have to havesomething just to take it, the
edge off each way, and then asyou get going back in the right
direction, which would mean backin that green zone, I would say

(39:40):
then any other skill you've beentaught, you'll have greater
access to because then the partof your brain that remembers
that stuff is now available toyou.

Track 1 (39:48):
Ah, I'm just going to repeat that again.
You'll have greater access tothe skills you've already been
taught.
So it isn't like you're afailure or you're dumb or you
just want to be sick or you justwant to be mad.
We literally lose access to whatwe know.
And so the most important thingis to get back to where we have

(40:10):
that access.
I don't even know how manymeetings I have.
I have Squished the bottom of myfeet to the,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (40:16):
Mm hmm.

Track 1 (40:17):
to the bottom of my shoes slowly one and the other.
Literally, sometimes it was allI could think about and just let
the words of the meeting go overme.
And I knew that was my fastestway back online and then to jump
in and be myself.
Yeah.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_15 (40:34):
and the, there's so much brain
imaging now, they can actuallyliterally tell what the brain is
doing at different times.
And, and really if that nervoussystem is over active, they can
prove it.
You cannot access your higherlearning at that moment.
So for me, the biggest thing, sosomeone might say, well, can you
just do the five senses?
Like, can you just look aroundand name five things?

(40:56):
You can, unless you're tooheightened.
And if you're too down, youwon't, you don't care.
So, so you've got to, but I'mnot doing that.
And so.
So yeah, it works within arange, but then if you start to
get out of that range, thesethings work better.
And as you start, as you getbetter at it, even myself as a

(41:17):
therapist, if I have a prettyangry client, dysregulated
client, if I can tell I'mstarting to dysregulate because
sometimes it's hard to stay inyour window under certain
situations, then I, even if Ihave a full glass of water, I'll
just say, you know what?
I'm going to actually, I'm goingto get some more water.
Would you like some?
I have a water cooler in myoffice.
And The reason I'm doing that isbecause I'm bilateral.

(41:39):
That's first move and then it'smovement and it's taking a drink
of water.
And then when I sit down, I'mmuch better able to stay
regulated in a really difficultsituation.
And we're actually teaching saylike secretaries in schools.
Just situations that can bestressful, like maybe a parent
comes in really upset.
Well good luck with thatmeeting, right?

(41:59):
And so now we're learning tosay, they're learning to say,
you know what, here's a drink ofwater.
Maybe they'll hand them abottled water or maybe they'll
say there's a drinking fountainright there if you'd like to get
a drink and then just come backand sit down and then they'll be
with you.
That little tiny interventionactually takes a pretty big edge
off for people and then they'rebetter able to participate in
the meeting

Track 1 (42:18):
Oh, that's beautiful.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-202 (42:20):
without knowing that's what the
secretary just did.
See what I mean?

Track 1 (42:23):
Skill set! And when I did my TED talk I remember when
I was preparing, I was doing aspeech in Colorado and I was
talking about how often peoplelike will clean when they're
angry.
Like that picture you have oflike a mom scrubbing something
when she's like, ah, I was like,it's fine.
If you clean, just clean withboth hands,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (42:42):
That's

Track 1 (42:43):
right

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1 (42:43):
it's really good.

Track 1 (42:44):
left hand sponge, like whatever's working, just do it
both sides.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (42:49):
Cause the brain does that anyway,
right?
It's it, that's the movement thebrain does when it's calm.
So we're just introducing that.
So either think about it as ifyou're in a stressful situation.
So even if it's say it's just apresentation that could be
stressful.
And so you want to be your bestself.
So some people are going to usethese skills to manage before a

(43:10):
stressful situation during orafter.
So it can be supportive.
Right in a difficult moment, butit also can just help someone re
engage too.
So it can do both.
Mm

Track 1 (43:22):
what you devised that helps this.
I know you were doing EMDR thatinvolves bilateral tapping, and
then you came up with a devicecalled ByTap, and I think it's
so great that it has grown sobig and so powerful.
and is helping so many peoplebecause I was there when you had
the little like demo stuff.
I still have an original.

(43:45):
So tell me, tell me what this, Ido, I have a relic.
Oh, that's weird.
I'm old enough to have a relicin anything really, but I was
born in the eighties so there'slots of them now.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (43:55):
Yeah, there you go

Track 1 (43:56):
So tell me how this came to be, what you saw was the
need and what this fills.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (44:01):
Well, part of EMDR therapy does
involve bilateral stimulation.
So you're either going to bedoing eye movement or if people
can't tolerate that, or just sayyou're blind or something, I
mean, you can't do it, thenthere's other reasons why people
can't.
Then then you would switch totapping, bilateral tapping.
And some people actually now doauditory BLS and they can wear

(44:22):
headphones and there would belike a tone going back and
forth.
But.
So it is part of the therapy forsure and there was older
equipment devised a long timeago, probably in the, I'd have
to look late 80s, early 1990s,because if, if I'm the therapist
and you don't want to do eyemovement and you don't want me
to tap on like the sides ofyour, knees, which is under some

(44:44):
people just don't want that,which is understandable.
Then they came up with devicesthat, that did the bilateral
stimulation.
But, but now fast forward to meand I was in Cedar City and I'd
have to count probably seven oreight therapists and working in
the private practice of mine.
And I still kept a full caseloadbecause the needs are so high

(45:05):
and the waiting list foreverybody.
Oh my gosh, just months.
And so you just feel as aprovider, just the burden of
that because you know, you can'tgive more than you're giving,
which is everything, but theneeds are still off the charts.
And so one of the things thatwould happen is if people came
into my office, dysregulatedwith the older equipment, I

(45:28):
would just mess with it a littlebit and I just turned it lower
and handed it to them.
And then I just visibly sawthem.
Calm down.
Like I'm not even having to saytake a deep breath as they calm
down They then took a deepbreath.
See what I mean?
So I just saw that over and overand the lady that was that was
like the office administratorShe's doing all the billing.

(45:49):
She's the one fielding all thecalls.
It's Haley and just Just peopleso desperate and so frustrated
because even if we referred outeverybody was full I mean, it's
just now think about the way theworld is today.
So it'd be ten times that andShe's actually the one see I'm
in the forest.
I can't see through the trees Soit's the one that's like can
take the bigger view and shejust said I think we need to

(46:12):
look at Bluetooth those and make'em tap because tapping is just
feels more nurturing and gentle.
And she just says, I think weneed to make'em tap and we need
to have this, the general publichave a way to self-regulate.
Like, you can't just, you justmake, we gotta make it easier
for'em.
'cause everyone knows what todo, like exercise stuff, but
people aren't doing it'causethey're too.

(46:34):
out of their window.
And so it actually came from anon therapist that saw the,

Track 1 (46:38):
love that.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (46:39):
great story that just saw the bigger
picture.
And then she and I went and metwith some engineers and just
pitched that idea.
And and then we just went fromthere and just early on, I think
it went to market November,2017.
And the month before at thattime I was the regional
coordinator for EMDR therapistsin Southern Utah.

(47:00):
And there was that concert, themass shooting in Las Vegas.
And so I was working with themon a large scale because that's
a high level of trauma when youthink you're going to a concert,
right?
And then everything goes south.
And so even people that weren'tdrinking that weren't drinkers
were starting to drink and drinkheavily because you can't stay

(47:22):
in a dysregulated state likethat and traumatized state and,
and then try to sleep and try tofunction.
They still had to work.
They still had to be moms.
I mean, it was just a.
turning their lives upside down.
So they were getting therapy.
And even if I saw them say twoor three times a week, which I
was on top of a caseload it justwasn't enough in between
sessions cause the trauma wasn'tfully reprocessed.

(47:44):
So individually I talked to themand I just said, I want you to
try the tappers to see what,what they'll do.
If they'll help you sleep, helpyou recover from triggers, help
you focus at work in everysingle one of them.
came back and was doing so muchbetter.
So I don't, I would never saythe tappers replace therapy, but

(48:06):
what I will say is it's aphenomenal regulation resource.
And the reason why is because itjust that you can hold or wear
the tappers and it's doing itfor you in the background.
Like it's just kind of like howour heart works.
you know, how our heart ratesjust all of that's happening in
the background.
It's just doing a regulation inthe background that you don't

(48:26):
have to remember to do, which isphenomenal.
Cause if you think about littlechildren, like infants, you
can't teach them coping skills.
You just have to regulate them,right?
Like through rocking them,cooing them, soothing them.
So think of your nervous systemthat way.
Like, what if you can havesomething that just simply can
regulate your nervous system, sothen you can actually function

(48:50):
at a higher level.
So these are now being used forsure after trauma, but they're
being used in schools to helpkids focus, to improve reading
scores, test scores I understandthe wellness rooms and I'm, I'm
for them, but the longer kidsare in the wellness rooms, the
less time they're in theclassroom.
So see, then they're gettingbehind in learning.
So what's really great is thekids really struggling of all

(49:12):
ages can actually take thetappers with them back in the
classroom.
So they have a regulationresource throughout the day if
they need it.
And that's a really big deal.
So we're pretty excited aboutjust all the things that are
coming from having a simpleregulation resource.

Track 1 (49:27):
Yeah.
Oh, so beautiful.
We actually got a set of thosefor my son who is on the
spectrum and struggles a lotwith test anxiety.
He is brilliant, but he wouldwalk in and feel that time
pressure and know he had tofinish on time or Dot, dot, dot,
dot, snowball, snowball, life isover, I'm never going to

(49:49):
college, I'll never have afamily.
Like, for this like, fourthgrade, simple math test.
And no amount of me talking orgiving perspective was really
helping very much, because heknew it would be okay before he
walked in, but

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1 (50:04):
just in the moment,

Track 1 (50:06):
yeah.
So we got him a pair of tappers,and he didn't want to like,
Seemed like the weird kid withthe tappers, but he also, yes,
but he also thought it was coolthat he got to have a toy and he
could slide them one in eachpocket and it helped him.
In fact, he was talking about itjust the other day when I was
saying I had talked to you onthe phone and he's like, Hey, I

(50:27):
need to find those.
He's a senior in high school nowand has obviously learned how to
do that, but he's got, you know,big tests, big things coming up.
So he's actually just started towalk around with them again.
Which is so

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (50:39):
that's good.
Because in even universities,there's I mean, we've just,
we're just starting, butthey're, they're more regularly
being approved, like in testingcenters, because it's just like
your son, if you know theinformation, but you can't
regulate, dial down that anxietyin the moment.
And even if you take it out ofschool, there are professionals
that need to advance in theircareer that because of test

(51:00):
anxiety, they're not able to.
And, and so this is somethingthat can help them.
No matter your age.
And I think that's beautiful.
And so what we've done that'sdifferent than other stuff is
their Bluetooth, but you pairthem to the app and a bi tap
app, and then you can adjust thespeed and the intensity of the
tapping that you like, like whatyour son likes and what you like

(51:21):
will probably be different.
Right.
Very different.
And then, then like for meduring the day, I actually use
them for focus and cause I havea sprinkle of ADD and it just
helps me focus so much better.
And I actually put them in mysocks.
And then if I'm presenting and Ican tell I'm nervous, then I
have them in my pockets.
And I actually use them everynight for sleep.
And so, cause I'm closing in on28 years as a trauma therapist.

(51:43):
And so not, yeah.
So sometimes I can't sleep verygood cause it, it does affect
you.
I mean, you know, it's justsecondary trauma.
I don't see it, but I hear it.
And

Track 1 (51:53):
And you hear it in a really raw, vulnerable,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (51:56):
Mm hmm.

Track 1 (51:56):
way.
I mean, if you think about if,if you talk to a friend and they
witness something traumatizingand you sit with them, those are
conversations that I rememberforever.
You do that every day on thehour.
I think,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (52:09):
Well, yes, I, yeah.
And so then sometimes I can'tsleep as well.
So then I just learned like andthat's what first responders are
doing too, because their sleepis usually compromised, but so
they can just turn the, the rateof speed and tapping down
lighter and just think abouthelping a baby fall asleep, like
just in a rocking chair.
So your nervous system, itreally can't ruminate.

(52:30):
and follow the tapping.
So the lower part of your brainis actually the boss.
And so, and if people are like,that's not true, willpower is
the boss, I would just say, wellthen let's just walk into a
theater together and you choosenot to smell the popcorn.
Right?
Like, your sensing brain reallyis the boss.
And so, so it just notices thetapping.

(52:50):
But then because it's moving,you're nervous.
I mean, it just, it follows it.
And in following it, it justsettles down that part of your
brain that's upset in thesimplest way.
And the truth is we've beenengaging in bilateral movement,
like crawling.
See what I mean?
Or people that you've got tocross the midline, like it's
just part of our everyday life,but we just through just the

(53:13):
advancements and understand howthe brain works, we, they just
now can prove that bilateralstimulation inhibits the
amygdala.
And to me, that's beautifulbecause it's.
You can just use it right in themoment you need to and it's non
pharmaceutical and it's noninvasive and I think that's
beautiful.
And if you ever didn't havetappers and someone was really
upset or really down, you couldjust say to them, Do you mind if

(53:35):
I tap back and forth like onyour knees?
I have, I know moms that haveactually done that with their
kids at dental appointments whothe kids were terrified.
They're just down by theirankles, just tapping back and
forth.
You know, before the tapperswere created, now they can
actually hold them or wear them.
But so it's just, you can usethem anytime you know you're
going to be distressed or in themoment when it just happens and

(53:57):
you don't have them, you stillknow the skills.
I can tap my feet back andforth, do a little bit of
movement, take a drink of water,and then that should be enough
to bring that down that thenanything else, you know, to do
that works you can do.

Track 1 (54:09):
When, before we had the tappers and when I was just
learning this with you, Iremember trying to find like
ways to devise helping my kidswith it without them knowing
that I was helping it because ifthey knew I was doing a therapy
thing, no.
So it was like, I would justhold their hands and look like,
look at their eyes and gentlysqueeze one hand and the other
just gently or put my hands likeon, on their back and gently rub

(54:33):
in my thumb on one side and thenmy thumb and the other side.
I have a question though.
So.
You were right about my son andI liking the tappers in
different ways.
He likes them to thump hard andto move kind of fast.
When I start to getdysregulated, I feel like I
already have so much.
It feels like I'm like, ah,already like my nervous system

(54:53):
wants everything off.
And so sometimes the tappers arehard for me to hold because I'm
like, I can't handle any morevibration.
I can't handle any more touch Idon't want anybody to touch me.
I don't know what to do.
But I have a hard time sometimeswhen I'm.
especially used to have a hardtime when I'm going into a real
red brain response with havingany more stimulation.

(55:14):
So what do you do in that, inthat case?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_15 (55:18):
Are you going up fast?

Track 1 (55:19):
Usually it's like, it's, it's usually that I
haven't been paying attention tothe signs of like the clench
that is coming and then all of asudden,

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1530 (55:29):
I think as you get better at
noticing the signs.
Does that make sense?
The more you spend in yourwindow or your, you know, just
that zone that you can tolerate,the more you can actually tell
when you're out.
So if, if that doesn't work, if,again, I would say the same
thing on the top end, if youcould do some movement and if
you can't on your own, ifsomeone would just be able to

(55:52):
just like what you said yourhusband did, just any type of
movement, because if you canstart to move your nervous
system, it just, it kind ofregisters that things are going
to be okay.

Track 1 (56:02):
Okay.
So

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_153 (56:03):
So I think movement or maybe if
you, cause you like music.
So if you could just hit abutton to play the, just have
that favorite song dialed up andjust tap that.
And maybe just that starts tojust help a little bit.
Do it's called a state shift tostart to calm down.
You know, or if someone's, ifyou had like a oils that you
liked and you could smell.

(56:23):
Just something that was pleasingto you, that alone, that
olfactory smell, that's actuallypretty, pretty strong and pretty
good.
If you could find a smell youlike to,

Track 1 (56:32):
Okay, so it's like move or do something with your
senses, something like find outhow you work, which is kind of
the theme of life in general.
Find out how you work and thenonce you can remember a little
more or handle a little morethan the bilateral tapping could
work, cause I know some kidsdon't want to be touched either
or some adults don't

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (56:51):
think, well, I think if you, but if,
here's what we tell the schools,if we're working with elementary
schools, middle school, highschool, if you front load the
kids when they're calm, thenit's different than if you're
showing it to them for the firsttime when they're dysregulated.

Track 1 (57:07):
true.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_15 (57:08):
You know what I mean?
So if they see it ahead of timeand they can mess with it and
they understand it, then, thenthe odds are higher that they'll
not be like, get that away fromme.
But it also works.
Like there's, you know, Haley'sson.
It's pretty funny when he waslittle, he used to get mad.
And so sometimes she'd say heknew about the tappers.
I mean, she helped create them.
So she said, she said, you knowwhat, you want to hold him?

(57:31):
He's like, Actually, I don't.
I want to stay mad longer.
And when I hold him, they makeme, they make me calm.
So, so he articulated that in avideo.
It's so funny.
It's so funny.
Yeah.
So it does work.
And if they want to stay madlonger, it's okay.
But if you introduce it to themwhen they're calm, I think the
odds are higher that, that itwill, They'll not be as

(57:51):
resistant when they'redistressed, but they still
might, because when you're inhigh red, just think of rigid
thinking just inflexiblethinking, you know, if you're,
if they're like that, theyprobably aren't going to, and
that'd be true with adults too,they're probably not going to
let you do anything, and I knowone agency that works with at
risk kids, they have tappers,and This kid was totally
dysregulated and the workertried to introduce him and he,

(58:12):
he actually threw him over thefence because he was so mad.
So they went and retrieved himand then as he calmed down, they
introduced him to him and ithelps him so much.
He has his own set like inschool and he dysregulates less
and he's more focused.
So once they understand thatjust how easy it is and they can
put them in their pockets orsocks so no one knows they have
them on.

(58:32):
Other kids like them on theirwrists and could care less, who
knows, because some schools havecreated a culture where it's
cool and it's kind of techie, sothey think it's cool to be
regulated.
Like it just depends on whoworks at that school, how they
represent

Track 1 (58:46):
How cool is that?
So where are some places whereyou would like to see more
devices or more informationabout bilateral tapping?
I know you're breaking into lotsof areas, like schools and
schools of medicine,demystifying it and helping make
it cool, teaching thesecretaries.
And I know we had a big traumaevent in our town and I know

(59:07):
your, your, company helped withsome of that too.
What are some areas where youwould like to see this
information get out better?
And how can that be done?
Is there stuff on your website?
Like if people are listening andthey're like, Hey, I actually
work with a lot of people whodysregulate.
How can I get more information?
What can I do?

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2 (59:25):
Bilateral tapping.
And so it's just b i t a p p.
com.
And at the top, it'll just talkabout different uses.
You can click on it and so manydifferent ways it's being used
comes up.
But for for just all of us, ifanyone has anxiety with going to
the doctor, the dentist, I thinkthat would be an easy one.

(59:46):
That's a pretty common problem.
We have a lady who's completingchemo treatments and you know,
you can't move when you'regetting a treatment.
And so the tappers just help herso much, just stay regulated in
a really distressing situation.
We're actually starting to workwith first responders quite a
lot and because they need to.
Yeah.

(01:00:06):
If you think about chroniccumulative stress that they're
exposed to and then try to comehome, they're usually, their
work is usually overwhelm,overwhelm, overwhelm.
Their window goes down and thenthey're supposed to go home and
be engaged and connected withtheir family and they have a
hard time doing that.
And so we're working with themquite a bit to help them I would

(01:00:27):
say addiction treatment startingto help there.
So, if someone's, if someone's,let's just say in, inpatient.
treatment, they do great.
Why?
Because they have support, noaccess to substances.
But then when you're on your ownand life gets hard and you get
triggered stress, then you know,that's your first thought.
And so using the tappers to getback into green, they will work

(01:00:48):
their program.
Red, they are higher if theystay up too long, likely to
relapse.
And then blue don't care andwill relapse.
And so if people like that'sAddiction, that's not me.
I would just say, well, justthink if you had New Year's
resolutions, because byFebruary, 80 percent of us
aren't doing them.
Like our habits are a big deal.

Track 1 (01:01:06):
well, and

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (01:01:07):
really trying to create change, huh.

Track 1 (01:01:10):
or staying out of the pantry after 8 o'clock at night

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_1 (01:01:12):
hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
And then the other big fieldthat we're starting to work with
is pilots.
And that's because Airlinepilots, if you think they've got
a, one, if you're on medication,that's a no no, right?
So even if you need it, thatflags you and I, I would have to
look at their regulations, butthey aren't able to fly for a

(01:01:34):
certain number of months if theyare on medication.
And then there's a black boxthat records everything they
say.
So even if you and I are copilots and you're having a hard
day or I am, I can't really tellyou about it.
Even if we're flyinginternationally, yeah, because
everything's being recorded.
And so they really

Track 1 (01:01:53):
can't move and

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (01:01:55):
can't move and can't share.

Track 1 (01:01:57):
And

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_15 (01:01:57):
And so they're looking.

Track 1 (01:01:58):
a thousand people in the sky.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024 (01:02:00):
Right.
Right.
No pressure.
And so that's, that's anotherfield where they realize that
all the coping skills, likereally you can still, even the
people that do work out, do getgood sleep, just in a moment of
stress, you still need somethingto bring that down.
And then I just think it'simportant for people to know
that if you've had chronicstress, think about it as just

(01:02:21):
being burned out.
Like your nervous system just,you know, It's hard to find
green because that window justgets smaller and smaller, so
it's easier to go into red whenyou're starting to get burned
out or really tired andoverwhelmed, and it's easier to
drop down.
And so our goal is just simpleinterventions to just help
people have the confidence thatI can self regulate.

(01:02:43):
And so if someone says, well, doyou still believe in therapy?
I'd say, of course I do.
But.
You can't live with me, right?
So, I mean, we have to have,people have abilities to self
regulate and this seems to be asimple, simple one that works
with how our brain works anywayat its best.

Track 1 (01:02:58):
Oh, Cindy, I am so grateful for the work you do,
not only in my life, but just inall of these arenas where you're
touching.
I'm grateful you were braveenough to go to an engineer and
figure this out.
And you listened to your officemanager and

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (01:03:12):
Yeah.
Yep.

Track 1 (01:03:13):
These are the ways that change happens.
It's people being brave with anidea, talking about that idea,
going through all the changes,and then getting that
information out.
So any listeners, I hope thatyou will disseminate this
information to people who youthink maybe could use it, which
is just about everybody I canthink of to help us learn, to
regulate our nervous systems.
Just thank you Cindy for thework that you're doing.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (01:03:36):
Well, I love all the work you're doing
and I, I know this podcast andyour audience is just really
important.
What you're, you know, thedifferent people you're bringing
on and I, I think it's beautifulwhat you're doing.

Track 1 (01:03:46):
Well, let's just, let's just keep doing what we're doing
then.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (01:03:49):
Okay, sounds

Track 1 (01:03:52):
All right.
Thank you for joining us.

cindy-jones_2_03-07-2024_ (01:03:54):
Thank you.
​I love every opportunity that Ihave to speak with Cindy.
Every opportunity.
So I'm glad you got to know hera little better too.
If I had to pick a theme forthis conversation, it would be

(01:04:17):
fostering resiliency.
That seems to be part of herlife's work.
And I identify with that becauseI've needed it in my life.
And so many people I know aretrying to foster their own
resiliency.
So what.
What a worthwhile conversation.
To review some key highlightsthat have to do with that
fostering resiliency.

(01:04:38):
I want to remind you of thewindow of tolerance.
So remember there is a windowwhen we can access.
Our calm, authentic selves.
And when we feel like we can useour tools, And we remember who
we are.
And we know how to proceed.
Sometimes we get out of thatwindow.
And as Sidney described, we cango up or down in nervous system

(01:04:58):
states.
And I think it's such a big helpin fostering our own resiliency
just to realize.
What window we are in becausesometimes we are outside of our
window and we keep trying tolearn something.
Or we keep trying to go throughwith an argument to prove our
point or.
We keep trying to push ourselvesand it is not going to do us any
good.
In fact, it does.

(01:05:19):
Counter good for us and forthose around us.
So even just learning yourwindow of tolerance and then
learning some tools for how youcan get back into your window,
when you have gone out of it.
One of my best tools Is the bytap device that she helped
develop.
So bilateral stimulation is sohelpful.
Those tappers are great becauseyou can even hide them in your

(01:05:42):
socks or your pockets, or wearthem like bracelets.
And people don't have to know,even that you are working on
regulating your nervous system,they don't even have to know
you're out of your window oftolerance.
Say you're in a meeting.
I've used them many times.
Or you're about to go intosomething stressful or you're
coming down for somethingstressful and you just want a
little help.
She was kind enough to share acode with me that listeners can

(01:06:05):
enjoy.
So if you use the code, Dr.
Becca 20, you can get$20 off Youalso save more money.
If it's getting shipped outsideof Utah, there's just lots of
ways that you can bring it intoyour reality.
They are worth the money anyway,but you know, it's nice to have
a discount.
If you don't have the tappers,remember other things that you
can do that help to regulateyour nervous system.

(01:06:28):
Our other forms of bilateralmovement, go for a walk or you
can angry, clean your house.
Only clean using both hands.
That's my helper there.
And finally my third takeawaywould be to remember the value
of EMDR therapy.
And of getting a trauma trainedtherapist.
If you suspect that some of thetrauma you or loved ones have

(01:06:49):
been through might be running apart of your life.
It's such a valuable technique,I was grateful for all of her
experience in it, as she taughtme how previous to this
conversation and during, again,I'm so grateful.
We got to join in Cindy Jones.
And if you need any furtherresources or want to know how to
get ahold of her, you can checkthe show notes.
I've taken care of all of thatfor you there.

(01:07:10):
I'm so excited to introduce youto next week's guest as well.
His name is William Comber andthis one is a little different
interview and it's one.
I loved to be a part of.
I'm came across William, as Iwas talking to him about a
device called the breather.
It's one that if you recall,from a previous episode, when I
was talking to Dr.
Tom Michaux.

(01:07:32):
He talked about the benefits ofdoing resistance exercises with
our diaphragm.
And he mentioned a device calledthe breather in order to do so.
We were talking about howincreasing.
Your diaphragm strength canreally help low back pain.
And we were talking about thingsthat were easier to do,
especially if you were sick orrecovering, that can make a huge

(01:07:53):
difference.
The breather is what hereferenced and it really caught
my attention.
I ordered one and I felt such adifference in my low back pain
and also in my ability to singand to have power in my voice
that I got hold of.
Well, Komar, he is the accountsmanager at the breather, and we
just started talking about thebreather, what it can do, what

(01:08:15):
the different functions of itwere.
So that I could talk about itwith patients.
And also, so I could just knowmore for myself.
But the more that I talked towill about the breather.
The more, I wanted to be a partof it.
So I brought him on.
So we could talk about thebreather and really give you a
sense of what increasing yourdiaphragm strength can do.
Also, we just got to have areally fun conversation.

(01:08:38):
He's a fifth generation, Floridaboy, as he calls it in.
In.
Growing up in Florida in preDisneyland times when it was
mostly rural, when there werelots of swamps and snakes and
Gators and orange groves to.
Play in and he has just taken.
A hold of his life in such abeautiful way.

(01:08:59):
He is smart and educated, wellversed in business in real
estate and accounting.
In all of those dimensions oflife, but also still maintains
that Florida country, boy kindof mindset, lots of barefoot
time, lots of outside time.
He and his family still live inFlorida and they still do what

(01:09:20):
he calls free rangegrandparenting.
Where he lives.
Kind of free range life.
And so does his family, it'sfascinating conversation.
I'm really excited for you tolearn more from William Comber
about breathing your diaphragmand taking a hold of life with
both hands.
I'll see you then.