Inner Martial Arts: Exploring Nervous System Regulation in Autism and Trauma with Holly Bridges

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the WhatReally Makes a Difference
podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Becca Whittaker.
I've been a doctor of naturalhealth care for over 20 years
and a professional speaker onhealth and vitality, but
everything I thought I knewabout health was tested when my
own health hit a landslide and Ibecame a very sick patient.

(00:22):
I've learned that showing up forour own health and vitality is a
step by step journey that wetake for the rest of our lives.
And this podcast is aboutsharing some of the things that
really make a difference on thatjourney with you.
So grab your explorer's hatwhile we get ready to check out
today's topic.
My incredible guest network andI will be sharing some practical

(00:45):
tools, current science andancient wisdom that we all need,
no matter what stage we are atin our health and vitality.
I've already got my hat on andmy hand out, so let's dive in
and we can all start walkingeach other home.

(01:06):
Welcome to our final episode inseason one of our show.
I can just hardly believe thatit's episode 24.
I've enjoyed so much having aprofessional excuse to reach out
to some of these people to havea wonderful conversation and to
be able to share it with you.
The people that we have had onthe show have shared their time.

(01:26):
And their talents andperspectives in a way that was
vulnerable.
And that was real.
And I hope it has improved yourlife as it has improved mine.
Many of them I knew before andhave collected their friendships
through different stages of mylife, but some of them were new.
And today is one of those peoplethat the podcast enabled me to
reach out to for moreinformation and it's a growing

(01:49):
friendship.
So I'm grateful for that.
Today we hear from HollyBridges.
She has done so much in thefield of nervous system
regulation and rehabilitation,and especially for groups of
people that are often overlookedor underserved.
She works a lot with people thatare on the autistic spectrum
that cannot handle a lot ofsensory stimulation, and she

(02:10):
took some very complicated work,the polyvagal theory, condensed
it down and simplified it tomake it easier to understand and
not only taught that, but alsowent on to create her own
techniques around anxiety.
It's called the anxiety reframetechnique.
And she teaches therapists orbody workers all around the
country, how to do that and tohelp these people.

(02:32):
So I read her book having to dofrom the perspective of working
with people that were on therealm of the autistic spectrum.
But what I discovered in thatwas it overlapped in such a
surprising way with the otherinformation I had come across
about trauma recovery, or aboutnervous system disorders and

(02:53):
regulation.
We have so many different campsof people that are struggling
with nervous system regulationjust from different reasons.
And often we don't communicatevery well from camp to camp.
And what I noticed in her bookwas how big the overlap was and
I reached out to her.
Simply to state my observationsand what was happening in myself

(03:14):
and other people I knewstruggling in those different
areas.
She reached back, she sharedsome research, and it ended up
being a really valuable exchangethat culminated in this podcast
episode.
So I'm excited to share it withyou, and we will talk more about
it in the end, give you thekeynotes, and say adieu until
next summer.
Welcome to our final episode andhere is Holly Bridges.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (03:36):
Heh.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04-01-2 (03:39):
to have you on the pod today,
Holly.
it's tomorrow for you, tomorrowmorning, and I'm in the evening
tonight, and I love coordinatingthat.
It's kind of trippy for my brainto think about.
So as you heard in theintroduction, I have Holly here
because we are talking about.
How to help our autonomicnervous systems and what that
really does for us, Holly.

(04:00):
I'm so grateful for the workyou've done with autism.
I'm so grateful.
We're going to be able to tiethat into trauma and into just a
general sense of us being ableto live a more embodied life.
Where we're understanding whatis happening in our bodies, how
to work with them, how to calmour own nervous systems.
And this is your forte.
I'm like a geek at your feet.

(04:21):
So happy for our time today.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2024 (04:25):
I was looking forward to this.
I think we're going to have afinal chat.
I really like talking tochiropractors because they
understand what I'm talkingabout.
And you have that level ofintricacy of the body.
And I, With no disrespect toother professions, a lot don't
and they're working in mentalhealth kind of fields, but they,

(04:46):
but they haven't learned that.
And so I like my name, my, it'smy married name, but Bridges,
it's quite a good name becauseI'm kind of pulling all of that
together in that sense.
But it's

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04-01 (04:56):
That was actually how I got into the
polyvagal theory, which issomething that you write about
and we will explain, but as Iwas reading Stephen Porteous's
book, the polyvagal theory, andit was talking about the
importance of someone feelingsafe.
In order to go into a healingspace or in order to be able to
receive feedback or have changeseither physically or mentally, I

(05:19):
was thinking about what it'slike for a patient when they
walk in, they meet someone new.
That person is going to have totouch them in order to do their
job.
I mean, as a chiropractor, Itouch the back, I touch the
muscles and often they have tolie face down first, so they
can't even see what I'm going todo.
And as I read that book, I, Ialready Was interested in having

(05:43):
a calm demeanor and in helpingpeople feel safe in general,
because that's just who I am asa provider and a person.
But that gave me the words tounderstand how important what I
was doing was.
And now, especially if I sniffany sort of trauma history or
any sort of anxiety, thenthere's a constant dialogue that
is intended to help someone feelsafe.

(06:05):
And.
Wow.
The more that we learn to feelsafe within our own bodies and
with each other.
It's been fascinating to readyour book and, and remember the
social cues we're giving eachother that help us feel safe or
not safe and what can behappening inside ourselves and
what that does to us on theoutside and how we interact with
the outside world.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04- (06:24):
Exactly.
And it's, it's, it's so simpleon the one hand and so
complicated on the other.
You know, so you can be focusingon your social cues, and, and I,
I know that you would know this,but it's, I think it's really
important to say, you can bedoing all the right things on
the outside, but if you'redysregulated, the other person,
especially if they've got autismor trauma or something, will

(06:45):
pick it up quicker than you canblink, so you actually have to
be authentic, even if you'reauthentically going, not
pretending that you're not, isactually safer for the other
person

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04-01- (06:57):
Mm.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (06:58):
the, a veneer, a veneer is very
difficult because there's amismatch there and it's that
level of authenticity andconnection and then proper co
regulation that is veryimportant to me.
So I, like I'm teaching my worknow and we'll go into it later,
but it's, it's that aspect ofthings and that aspect of

(07:19):
connection with people is, is,you know, underpins everything.
Okay.
That I'm doing.
Yeah, it's really important.

I love that you pointed that out
first and foremost.
So Holly, I know you do a lot ofwork with autism, so we'll
reference autism a lot.
I also have done a lot of workwith trauma, with people who
disassociate or dysregulate.
And I also am quite an empathicperson.
Like I pick up emotions aroundin the room.

(07:50):
In all three of those arenas.
It's so frustrating for me andfor other people I know with
those, when people have a veneerthat is a mismatch, it's just
endlessly frustrating.
Like if people are upset, butthey're smiling and saying
they're fine.
And you know, they're not thesense of anxiety goes way up.
And lots of people think whenthey're looking at an autist

(08:12):
face and it might be a littlebit more blank, then lots of
people misinterpret that they.
Might not understand thatsomeone is putting up a double
front.
And I

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (08:22):
Oh, yeah.
Yes.

most and, but it's just what to like
do about it that they're

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (08:30):
And then their face might grow even
more shut down,

Yes.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04 (08:33):
including the rest of their system,

Yes, not because they're not picking
it up, but because they are, andit's a, and it's a complicated
process to figure out what to doabout it.
In fact there are autists in mylife that are very, very dear to
me, friends, my son, people Iwork with, and just people that
I love.
And I would say that has beenone of the things that surprised

(08:56):
me the most when I actuallyjumped in their world is how
deeply they are often feeling,but how alone they feel in the
feelings.
And same thing withdisassociation.
Most of the people I know thatdisassociate a lot.
It's not because they're vapid,silly creatures.
It's because there's so muchthat sometimes you just don't

(09:18):
know what to do with all of thatfeeling.
So thank you for naming that.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (09:23):
And what I think's really fun is
that those states, whetheryou've been born in that state
You know, so then that can beakin to very, very shut down
autism, you know, that, or, or atrauma induced disassociated
state.
If you have prolonged time withthose things, it makes you

(09:43):
really smart.
It makes you really aware.
I spend a lot of time going abit left of center with the
polyvagal theory, because I likethe dorsal vagus and I like
talking about that.
But if you're in a dorsal vagalstate you're, there is a level
of heightened awareness.
And so you, you have connectionto all sorts of other things.
And that gets missed if yourface is blank or you're a little

(10:06):
wigged out, people, people justsee that because that's what
they're used to reading.
And that's where they're.
Vicinity lies, but there's allthis other space and
spaciousness that's there.
And I, when, when you canacknowledge that personally,
it's the same thing we weresaying at the beginning.
It, not as a platitude, but as aknowing, then you connect very

(10:29):
deeply with the other personwithout having to say a word.
because your eyes and your faceare actually emitting a truth of
awareness of.
The person behind that stuffwithout trying to pacify them or
placate them or all that sort ofstuff.
It's fascinating.

I try to be what is the word?
Vulnerable and honest in thingsif I'm going through something,
but truthfully with no one morethan my son who has autism
because when he, he will pick itup, I was the other day having a
rare moment of emotional eating.
I'm not saying I never did thatbefore, but I'm sensitive to

(11:11):
sugar, so I don't do it verymuch now, but it was.
A day.
And I had some gluten freeOreos, and I just wanted to dunk
them in milk, like I did incollege when things were normal.
Hence.
Yes, so I was sitting there, Igot my three Oreos out of the
package so I wouldn't bingethem, also like I did in
college.
Sitting there and as my threepeople had walked through, and

(11:33):
no one had noticed that anythingwas off about me.
He walked in the door, hestopped, stared at me and said,
Okay.
Mom is dunking Oreos in milk andshe has that look on her face.
And truthfully, I thought numberone, thank you for seeing me and
you're correct.
And number two, I thought peoplethink you don't notice you

(11:56):
notice everything.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04- (11:58):
Exactly.

And number three, I'm not going to
lie to you.
It's been a very bad day.
So,

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (12:04):
this huge level of reality.
And connection and which is thewhole empathy issue, isn't it?
There's all that stuff going on,this perception and connection,
but because it's not ventralwired in quite, you know, the
same way, it's seen as adisconnect.
Whereas there's actually a much,much deeper purveyance, I think

(12:25):
is, I think the right word.

So I'm just imagining some of some
people I know who may belistening to this podcast.
I have a friend who has anautistic son and he is one that
is a little further into thespectrum.
where he's in his own world alot.
And he probably wouldn't noticeif his mother was dumping
cookies in milk.
Maybe he would, probably hewouldn't because he's in his own

(12:50):
world.
So I'm not trying to, todiscount that part of the
spectrum.
Can you, do you know any moreabout what would be happening
about

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (12:59):
Oh, yeah.
Well, because that's my favoritetopic.

okay, well, let's talk about it.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (13:05):
One.
One of them.
It's, it's very, there's sort ofall these levels of being a
human being, isn't there?
So, when you're, I draw atriangle for this, so I'll send
you a picture of it.
And I have ventral vagal at thetop.
And then I have two lines, onefor immobilization with fear,
one without.
And I try not to go too far awayso I can answer your question,

(13:28):
but there's a way in which thefurther down you go, the more
diffusely connected you are.
So the less apparent, as we'resaying your, your outer
connection is.
And so.
With someone that is, you know,potentially, you know, non
verbal, non speaking, and theyseem much more disconnected.

(13:51):
While they might not be able tocome up and say, Oh, mum's doing
this and I can witness it andhave a level of perception and
connection to the situation.
It still doesn't mean they'renot involved in what's
happening.
And why I think that the most isbecause, do you know Diane

(14:13):
Powell?
She's doing, she's apsychiatrist, a biologist, she's
got a lot of degrees.
But she does studies ontelepathy and autistic savants.
And it's really good fun,because she does double blind

(14:33):
studies, and the sciencecommunity poo poo her and say
she isn't real, but she's workedin, she's American, and she's
worked in Russia, America,England, she's very highbrow
scientifically.
But she does these double blindstudies, and she'll have someone
who's you know, heavily shutdown, always has been, wouldn't
think there was much going on.

(14:53):
And very hard to regulate.
So one of her stories is goingto this, this chap's house, and
he's probably, I don't know, 30,40, so I can't remember how old
he was, but it took him about 45minutes to calm down because
there was someone new in hishouse, and that's the level of,
you know lack of ability toregulate the system to the point

(15:13):
where she thought, Oh, look,this just isn't going to work.
And then he goes, gets on histypewriter and goes, yeah, all
right.
I'm okay now.
What do you want?
And she goes, I want to measurewhether you can read your mom's
mind if we stick her in anotherroom.
And he's like, fine, let's go.
She does this all the time, bythe way, lots of different
people.
And you know, it came, it cameout with a, you know, from 99

(15:36):
percent success rate orsomething.
And it's that.
There's.
We have dismissed this as areality as human beings for a
really long time.
And when you're in certainphysiological states, it's more
accessible.
So it's fascinating to startdoing that.

(15:56):
In terms of appreciating it andletting it be true.
And then what I findtherapeutically, if you let that
be true, and I'm working withpeople and I'm, you know,
someone at that level, it's veryhard for them to operate their
body.
So I have two main things withexercises that I start with and
one is like a fit ball, put yourfeet on it and push it's a soft

(16:18):
ball with there's a whole sortof momentum to it to stimulate
metareceptors to send signals ofsafety to the body, et cetera,
et cetera.
We do it very nicely, but I alsodo acupressure points and I'll
have people who are.
That, and not me working onthem, but we're both together
seeing what's okay, what can youtolerate, that kind of thing.

(16:39):
If you come in and do that withsomeone who's distinctly in
their own world, they're reallyinterested in the work.
If you come in with the rightpresence and you give enough
time for them to do it, youstart playing and they can feel
the physiology change hugely.

(16:59):
But then it starts waking uptheir system, which has been in
chronic shock and for so long.
And so it starts to mobilize andthey have such a, I think, an
extreme awareness of what'sgoing on in their body because
it hurts so much because it'salways stuck in fifth gear,
screeching around the, you know.

(17:21):
universe or the house.
And one example of this is a kidI've worked with.
And when I say kid, he's like 17ish with autism and pandas.
So extremely locked myself in acupboard for most days.
When I met him, he would be justrunning his hands underwater for
most of the day, naked in thebath.
Like that's his day.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_ (17:43):
Gracious.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04 (17:44):
basically cry when I talk about this,
which I'm allowed

Mm.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (17:47):
you know, from them, their point of
view, but he took quite a whileto, with home visits at that
time when I was working to, Letme into his space and understand
it what I was trying to do and Idid that in a variety of ways
like I Talked to his mum firstand draw pictures with him in
the room so he could absorb theinformation Then we tried to do

(18:10):
the work and we did this over aseries of sessions and that you
know It was a bit hairy atpoints because he wasn't able to
control himself But then when hegot the point of it, we It was
incredible.
He, A, you know, once we'dreally started working, because
you can go around all the pointson the finger like this, right,

(18:31):
and hold them for however long,you know, maybe count to 20 or
something, whatever you canhandle.
But if I get it wrong, theorder, he'd be like, push my
hand and go, do it right, whichI think is fascinating.
But also his toes were blue.
Because he would be standing onhis feet or his toes for his
whole day.
Like it's huge the level ofphysical, like you only do that

(18:54):
if you're in physical distress,and then it's even more physical
distress.
But it must shut down becausethe feet have so much sensory
information coming through thatyou want to stop it.
But as we'd work, and this iswhere I cry, his feet would
uncurl.

Mm.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (19:11):
his toes would go pink and they'd go
flat and his face would go getflushed and like his whole
Facial system would start tobreathe his whole whole system
would start to be connected andthen he's got a different sense
of himself And then he has ahigher ability to regulate and
connect with the world And thisis where

How different

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (19:31):
you come back to the polyvagal
theory and just go.
Thank you Steven Porges It'sjust beautiful.
It's such a beautiful, simpleway of understanding all of
that.
And then you come in and do somelovely work.

what did, I'm so sorry.
I was interrupting you.
What a different way to handlethat than, Hey, put your heels
down.
Like, cause I know so manyautists that stand up or like,
Hey, uncurl your toes, uncurlyour toes right

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (19:58):
look at me.
Look at me.

dr-becca-whittaker_3 (19:59):
different.
Yeah.
Then the respect that it is tounderstand what's happening.
So let's go back and give thelisteners a few different
definitions.
So first of all in the polyvagaltheory, and by the way, in your
book, so I haven't even reallysaid the name of it yet.
It's called reframe yourthinking around autism.
It is a a pretty small book andyou distilled this big complex

(20:23):
theory into something that isactually easy to hand to someone
to ask them to read it.
They will be able to understandit.
If they are not a scientist,they will probably understand
it.
Intuitively, if they've beenaround anybody with trauma,
difficulty, regulating autismand be like, yes, this is what
is happening.
So thank you for this book.

(20:44):
If anyone is even mildlyinterested, please get this book
on, on Amazon or wherever youget them.
But one of the first things youtalk about is Stephen Porteous's
work.
With with what I just call FFI.
So it's fight or flight, butalso adding in the I part was,
which is immobilization.
We're used to thinking of whenpeople kind of ramp up, they go

(21:04):
out of their parasympathetic ortheir rest and digest system and
into a sympathetic overdrive.
But what I really think gainedsome attention that needed some
attention was the tendency toimmobilize.
So I would call that freezing,shutting down, disassociating,
or in an autist often they startto stim or flap.

(21:25):
But truthfully, I mean, animalsshake it off to do that.
Other people begin to shake too.
We just have different words indifferent buckets of which we're
looking.
Can you go over What happens inthat?
And then let's, and then I'llask the next question that I
think we need some basicunderstanding around before we
talk about some more stuff.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (21:46):
What I, what I've done is I last,
Yeah, the year before I've, Idid a second edition of my book
because I took it back from thepublishers.
So I could have more controlover it and play around with it
a bit more.
So I've done a second edition.
So it's got a new cover, whichis really sad cause I really
love the old cover.
But in that I changed it.

(22:08):
There's so much since I wroteit.
Like when I wrote it, it was,you know, when I started
writing, it was a decade ago andno one had done this, which is
why I went, why isn't anyonedoing it?
And so it is very simple.
It's like a Dr.
Seuss version of the polyvagaltheory.
So it's accessible.
And I have people, clients whotake it around everywhere.
They take it to school withthem.

(22:29):
They take it everywhere becauseit's like, this is me.
And it helps them feel, likesomeone understands what's going
on for them.
It's really cool.
The FFI, I've shifted to FFFI.
The reason being, you haveflight flight freeze, and we
have such a ingrainedunderstanding of what freeze is.

(22:53):
So if you're a neurotypical,which, I don't love language
like that.
I find it dismissive of peopleand I don't like to do that, but
if you want to take that kind ofthing.
If you're someone that hasn'texperienced the level of
shutdown or immobilization thatsomeone has for a prolonged
space of time, then your idea offreeze is, is highly simplistic

(23:16):
in a sense.
It's like stage fright or Icouldn't move, but there's,
it's, it's light, it's light onin a sense.
And Porges is speaking tosomething quite different.
So where you might be a gazellein the, Forest and there's a
lion in the distance, you mighthave these options at a
sympathetic nervous system levelof being, you know, moving or

(23:38):
fighting or, you know, runningaway or, or that freeze is sort
of stop still and then, and thenthink again, you have, there's
this level of choice.
But what he's talking about, andthe distinction is so big, is
the immobilization is wherethere isn't choice.
If that line gets too close,that gazelle's down and out,
because the only option, and thebody's taken over, and there is

(24:00):
no complicit, I can't say theright word, complicity of the,
of the, The individual, which iswhy it's so interesting for
trauma and such a useful modeland a truth that we haven't
spoken to for a long time isthat the system takes over and
makes the decision and thenyou're out.
And until that line goes away orthe body deems it safe enough or

(24:23):
someone comes in and helps youin some respect and the body
warms up again, then you cantiptoe away from the lion.
As a little gazelle.
And that's what I teach peoplehow to do.
But it's in there, is the, that,that shutdown is 100 percent
involuntary.
Involuntary at a certain point.

(24:43):
And so I, I like to delineate iteven more than I tried to in the
first edition.
So that we can really be clearabout what we're talking about.
Because otherwise people go, ohyeah, I know how you're feeling.
It's like, no you don't,

no no, no.
and after you've been in afreeze, you know, I actually had
a person on the, on my podcast acouple of weeks ago named Shuna
Morelli.
And she does, she talks aboutbody mind bridge and she wrote a
book called survival trances,which is when you get in a mode
for survival and that's whatsurvival is about.

(25:20):
And that's another word that Ifeel like.
You inherently know once you'vebeen in it, right?
A freeze that you couldn'tcontrol.
And you may come out of it afterand judge yourself.
Like, um, I mean, why didn't Istop that?
Why didn't I do something?
Why didn't I, whatever.
But at some point your body is amechanism that is designed to

(25:40):
keep you alive.
So what's interesting to thinkabout in the autists arena or in
the PTSD arena or in any ofthose is the level of nervous
system stress is so high, thebody must shut down sometimes.
And when you are at a level thatis that high, like I think

(26:03):
about, you know, having staticon the radio or something like
that in my head all the time.
If I had like a normal day whereI felt fine and there were You
know Maybe different nutritionthat came in or surprise sounds
that came in or my clothes werea little scratchy.
I could handle it.
But if it's the end of the dayand I'm tired and there's been
meetings and someone's on re atme and I'm getting to feel more

(26:27):
and more kind of like static onthe radio in my head, then I
don't have as much space in mysystem for any of those.
I mean, we kind of all know whatthat feels like, how you are on
a day where it's smooth, how youare on a day when there's a lot.
And it was interesting for me torealize that that was how lots
of autists feel all the time orlots of PTSD people feel All the

(26:49):
time.
And you can't really know that'shappening under the, I dear
people.
I know with autism, you wouldn'tknow by looking at them unless
you are in the world for awhile, and then you start to
know our PTSD.
Any of that.
So it's interesting what peoplecan be dealing with on the
inside.
And you talk about the, the kindof like defense mode shutdown

(27:13):
that autism does being based ontheir systems already being
amped.
Not vacant amped.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02- (27:19):
Their baseline is high, high amp, all
the time.
Yeah.
So that's their norm.
A good day is a really highlevel and then a bad day is off
the charts.
So, so there's an extremity inthe system all of the time.
So we've just done a study on inreference to a study on autistic

(27:39):
inertia, and I'm finding thatreally good language in a sense,
because it gets so complicatedto talk about autism in a sense.
When you start talking aboutinertia and the polyvagal
theory, you can go into traumaand stuff as well.
It's like the body goes intoshutdown.
It's very hard to mobilize.
It's very hard to think.
There's all this executivefunctioning and, and working

(28:03):
memory and everything that goesoffline when you are in sensory
bombardment, when your body isin a state of, it doesn't even
feel like distress necessarilyto people on the spectrum.
And this is what I think peopledon't understand.
The distress is when their highbaseline gets overloaded,
otherwise it's just normal.
Doesn't feel great, but they'vebeen born with it.

(28:23):
So it's just what it is.
It's just that it's very hard tothen interface with the world
because your bandwidth isn't,you know big.
And your your vagal system, Ilike to think of a, a really
well functioning vagal systemand Even if I say that language,
I start getting into trouble,but I'll say it.
It's like a good piece ofbamboo, like Crouching Tiger,

(28:45):
Hidden Dragon.
It's really flexible, and it cango taut if it needs to, but then
it can go soft, and it, it's,it's able to reflexively,
Unconsciously reflexively dealwith the world and then you can
you don't have to think about itWhereas people on the spectrum
there's is I think like and Iconsider myself on the spectrum
I understand this very well froma personal point of view.

(29:07):
And it's a lot less difficultthese days, but I think it's
like a talk catastrophe Whereit's, and that's your normal.
And so every day you're walkingaround like that, and it's not
like it's all bad, because, youknow, and we'll talk about this
later maybe, but there's a wholesort of confluence of other cool
things that can come with that.
But, but at a systems level, ata body level, you've, you've got

(29:31):
a taut catastrophe.
And it inhibits, and it, it,your connection with the world
in ways, in ways.

Yeah.
One of those ways that you talkabout that I loved how you, how
you explained it in a simple wayis our social engagement system.
And I think that's so valuableto talk about.
So can you explain how yourvagal system, so I probably
should get basics for that.
Your vagal nerve is your 10thcranial nerve and it wanders.

(30:00):
Vagal means wanderer.
Vagus means wanderer.
But it wanders all through yourbody.
It is, it helps your basicallyentire rest and digest system
and helps us navigate betweenfight and flight and rest and
digest and all that in between.
And like you said, it should beflexible and easily bendable.
And when it gets taught, then wehave a hard time regulating.

(30:22):
So now that we have the vagalsystem kind of basics down.
Can you tell me how that relatesto our social engagement system
and what that even is?
Because I think that's a reallyimportant piece for why it's
sometimes hard to read people inPTSD or in autism.
So what is our social engagementsystem?
How does it relate to our vagaltone?

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (30:45):
your social engagement system is, I
always have to just put it in mywords.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04 (30:51):
Please, please.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (30:53):
It's always, and I, and you always
have to sort of talk in metaphorin some respects because it's
actually just easier, but it'slike your veneer, it's, it's how
you meet the world.
It's your interface.
But then again, what it is, isyour ability to use your eyes,
ears.
mouth, lips, tongue, body tocommunicate.
So it's it's an aspect ofhumanity.

(31:14):
It's an aspect of being a mammalbecause all mammals have an
ability to use their physiologyto engage with others.
You know, and so human beingsare, excel at this on the whole,
where we speak, and we make eyecontact, and we attune to
people, and we use facialexpressions, and we localize,

(31:35):
and we mobilize our heads, andwe are expressive, and wave our
arms around in conjunction, andall of this choreography of, of
connection, is allowed by ourphysiology, being in a certain
place.
So The best thing for me withPorgy's stuff and I went, Oh,
that's me.

(31:55):
I was just like, Oh, there is,it has to be in a certain place.
When your body is operating atoptimum, your digestive system's
in a good place.
Your heart rate's down, yourcortisol's down.
You're in a sympathetic nervoussystem state where it's
operating nicely.
So you're mobilizing and thenyou have a, A, a confluence of

(32:21):
it's language is the ventralvagal state is then allowed, but
it's the vagus nerve, which isthe biggest nerve in our body
that goes into all your majororgans.
So it can put you in a flight orfight state.
It can put you in an immobilizedstate.
You, you can use it yourselfwhen you're in a, strong kind of
position.
And you don't when you'remobilized, which is what we're

(32:42):
saying.
But when it's, when everything'soperating nicely or well enough,
your big, the biggest cranialnerve, the vagus nerve then
connects to all the othercranial nerves, which are eyes,
ears, tongue.
Taste all of that sort of thingand so you're able to move your
face and to operate that systemIt's a system at the end of the

(33:04):
day.
We are embodied We live in abody and I don't if it always
works you it's very hard tounpack this as well as when you
know It doesn't work.
Then you have to know who youare separate to it, which is why
I think it's all very BuddhistYou know, that's that sort of
thing in the day, but you'reYour ability to use it depends
on the state of the system.

(33:25):
So when you're in a highlyimmobilized shutdown state, it's
hard to talk, it's hard to eatbecause your tongue shuts down,
your gut shuts down.
When you're in a highlyimmobilized state, your, your
digestive system seizes.
And so, that, when that happens,it, it affects your vestibular
system, it affects your,everything goes into a

(33:45):
contraction.
And when we're in a contractedstate, the brain choreography
shifts, because the brain isn'tthis piece of wood, it is again
a confluence of things, so thatit mobilizes, you can use
aspects of it depending onwhat's going on.
So when you're in a flight orfight state and everything's
heightened, your ears, via thevagus nerve, via all the cranial

(34:06):
nerves attune to danger.
Your eyes will narrow and attuneto danger, your face will go
rigid, your throat will seize,your digestive system will
seize, all of that tract will goin, your, you have a totally
different channels ofcommunication to your arms and
legs and your back, and you'reready to go.
And so, if you've been born likethat, that's all you know.

(34:32):
And so you might have always hadtrouble eating and always had
trouble seeing the peas on yourplate because your eyes are Not
able that they they're notchatting to the body in a really
open fluid way And so all sortsof things get shut off and shut
down and it's just normal Andthen that there's gradients and

(34:53):
gradients of that down to totalshutdown and a coma Or the other
op, the other way, you know, andthis is the thing, it's, it's,
it's just this fluidity of beinga human in a, in a mammalian
body in a human body is theother way is it can all start to
open up and then you havegreater and greater access to
your, physical system, and yourmental system, and your

(35:15):
emotional system, because youlose connection with your heart
when you're in a contractedstate at levels.
there's this way in which yoursocial engagement system is
your, your, your connection tothe world.
It's our highest evolutionaryfunction.
So we, we have learned to playwith it over a fairly long time.

(35:38):
Which I should do, is that goodenough?

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04- (35:40):
That's a beautiful

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (35:41):
Oh, good.

in your, in your, I'm going to add
to it.
And then I'm going to go back towhat you said in your book.
You talk about how it is one ofthe ways that we co regulate
with each other the most, likewatching each other's eyes,
watching each other's faces.
So it can be Let me back up.
We watch each other for that,but also we talked about how
amped and, and highly, we talkedabout how amped an autist brain

(36:07):
could be, or a trauma brain canbe, or I, you know, the, the
experiences that I have had inthat state that were the most
pronounced were I, my nervoussystem was at such a high level
that I shut down completely.
I had autoimmune disease.
I had brain poisoning.
I had all this stuff.
And I would go into episodeswhere I could not move.

(36:27):
I could not speak.
And I would just, wherever ithappened was where I had to It
was terrifying, but I was fullyin there.
Just could not have control.
of my body until my nervoussystem learned to calm.
I couldn't handle like light.
I couldn't handle sound.
And I remember when I was out ofan episode, I started to gather

(36:49):
just soft, calming music thatwouldn't have beats that were
too loud and wouldn't have anysort of drumming, which I
usually like, but stuff tosoothe, because I started to
notice.
The faster that I could sootheand bring my nervous system
down, the more I could sort oftake the strings back over in my
body.
I felt like a, like a marionettethat had lost the connection

(37:11):
point for my muscles, which mademe think, okay, nervous system
disorder or something attackingmy spine, which it was, I had
Lyme disease.
But I try, I think what iscreating the biggest stress on
the system can depend on theperson.
So it can be a trauma fromchildhood.
Mine, I thought was an illness,but truthfully, I was working

(37:32):
with doctors and all kinds ofnutrition and stuff to try to
get my guts back online.
And every system that you talkedabout on in my body was down and
it was not until I startedworking with a mentor and we
began to untangle theperfectionism and the constant
drive and the belief systemsthat were in my head that were

(37:53):
driving the whole thing.
When I.
learned more that helped meshift my emotional state and my
way of viewing the world, thenmy nervous system could calm
down.
And then I could get my feetunder me, but going from the
outside and didn't work at all.
And.
I actually got to see some ofthat this morning.
I mean, when we are in a spotwhere our nervous systems have

(38:16):
been ramping for a long time, Ilove how you talked about how we
shift to just looking for dangeror threat.
So it can be, someone can saysomething to you.
And all we can see is the threatin it.
I, I have a dear one in my lifethat I was with this morning
when that happened.
And it was interesting to see abrilliant person start to shut

(38:40):
down and to realize that in myown self and in the self of just
so many people that I've seen.
When we go in behavioral therapymode and we try to coach people
in that state.
And we're like, blink your eyes,look at me, do this.
Why are you talking?
Why are you yelling?
I'm like, Oh my good.
When you, once you have been inthat state, you know, there is

(39:01):
no sort of outside coaching thatis going to help.
It is just learning to regulate.
And I love what you said aboutthere is a way out.
There is the other end where welearn how to feel our bodies and
we learn what the cues mean thatare coming from our bodies and
how to actually feel them.
Care for them, like care aboutourselves, learn what this

(39:24):
means, learn that we have toregulate.
And it is a whole world thatopens up.
So you talk about how in autism,it can start from really small,
some trauma when they are small.
I know I've heard it comes fromvaccines.
I've heard it comes from lots ofother things.
I think the truth is if thatnervous system is fragile, It

(39:44):
can be many things.
My son started exhibitingbehaviors.
Actually, when he was young, itwas the first time I left him
alone.
We went to a Harry Potter movieand I had told the sitter where
the Milk was for him, but aboutfive minutes after I left, he
started crying for the milk andshe couldn't find it.
It was right in the fridge.

(40:04):
I'm not really sure what thedisconnect was, but he screamed
for two solid hours.
And when I came home, man, ittook me.
a long time.
He wasn't really his self daysor weeks.
And that was just one littlething.
So kids that are born in trauma,I know autist friend of mine, a
couple of them had a lot ofproblems with bowel problems or

(40:27):
bladder problems, and then, youknow, If they were in abusive
situation, it got worse justmore and more and more.
So maybe not a neurobiologicthing, maybe a nervous system
regulation

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-0 (40:37):
They're the, they're, they're the same
thing.
They're

Ah, true, true, true.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (40:43):
You can't have one, you can't have a
head without a body and viceversa.
They're the same thing, aren'tthey?
And so, yeah, it's, Oh, again,you're, I love listening to you
and then I get right into whatyou're saying.
So now I'm trying to pull backout of that to respond.
Let me think.

(41:06):
I got lost.
I got lost in where you, what's,what's the main thing then, if,
if all of that stuff you justsaid is true, what would be the
main thing that you want to ask?

guess in what I just said, I'm saying
here, here to that.
You don't really understand thatfeeling of not being able to
access your body, not being ableto access your voice, your face,
your bowel function, all of ituntil you're really in it.
And what I'm hoping that we canget into with your work is how

(41:40):
do you help people?
Open that level back up.
So now that we understand whatit can feel like to be trapped
in there and to be constantlyscanning for danger, but also
once you're only seeing danger,you're not really reading the
environment all that welleither.
So you might not understand yoursocial cues that you're watching
for to try to help the thingthat you know is coming, which

(42:01):
is infuriating.
So.
What do you do now?
I know you have moved your focusmore into, uh, you've made a
whole technique, right?
For how to help people balancetheir systems.
Please tell me what you do.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-202 (42:15):
So I'm, I'm going to link now back
to where you were.
Sorry, I usually scribble andthen I remember things while
you're talking and I lost mypen.
So,

can pause and find it if you would
like.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (42:28):
it's all good.
It's fine.
What I wanted to catch was.
I think that was really relevantin what you were saying.
We don't know why.
You can, there can be lots ofreasons why you have a
dysregulated system.
And so I tend not to focus onany of that.
Because I, Would rather go theother way and as you know where

(42:50):
your questions leading as towhat what do you do?
I I think there are many manyreasons for this to happen and I
think historically You know,we've gone down weird roads like
Freud and refrigerator mother ifwe want to start talking autism
all that sort of stuff But atthe end of the day, it's an is
And, and so all possibilitiesare on the table, in a sense, as

(43:13):
opposed to it can't be or it isor, you know, all of that sort
of stuff.
I just find for me that takes somuch attention when, you know,
and I, I like to sit withwhere's your system at?
What does it know?
What can it learn?
And then the other aspect isthat.
Even when you were talking andyou're talking about we can re

(43:36):
learn sensory stuff or teach youThere's a level at which what I
loved about the Polyvagal Theorythe most was that it's not about
consciousness.
It's secondarily aboutconsciousness.
It's about, you know, it, itbecomes your physiological state
allows consciousness and itallows social engagement.
It allows capacity.

(43:57):
And so you know, what we haven'tsaid is neuroception, which I
think is useful to bring in hereis when you, when you are
scanning the environment, yourbody's doing that.
It's a, it's a innate thing thatyour body does and it will do it
more or less depending onwhether it feels safe.
If your body doesn't feel safeit will be continually scanning

(44:18):
and then it becomes a mentalstate and then it can become
anxiety if you've got too much.
The body's scanning, scanning,scanning and it is highly
complex in the sense of what youwere talking about before of how
do you unpack that, howtherapeutically, there's all
sorts of variables to this.
that we don't want tooversimplify but you can simple

(44:39):
it down in the sense that thisis what the body's doing and it
it's when it feels safe it doesit less when it feels unsafe it
does it more but it's literallygot a a filigree of information
that is tracking all of the timebecause that's its job and if it
thinks that things are not safeit will contract and send you
into a flight or flight stateand you can learn how to bring

(45:02):
yourself out of that state.
And then if you go too far,you're in a very shut down
state.
But so much of who we are, thisanxiety is a big deal for me
because we, we see it as amental issue.
I see it as a physical,physiological issue first.
And so where my work comes inand why I think it's vastly

(45:23):
different to what other peopleare doing is I'm, I'm, I'm, I
call it an internal martial artnow because it's much more about
learning the subtleties of yoursystem and, and bringing it down
out of a conscious sphere and,and playing around with how do
we make the body feel safe witha variety of tools that I've

(45:47):
either created or I've, youknow, utilized that other people
have done, but I bring it into,into into this space with a high
degree of awareness and a highdegree of artistry or
sophistication.
It's ART, anxiety reframetechnique, but it's a, it's a
way of gently playing withsensory information.

(46:08):
Meta receptors in the body, ifyou like.
But see, that doesn't make senseto people.
So there's sometimes no point insaying it.
But the, you're teaching thebody.
If you've got someone who'snever felt safe in their body
and then you, you can, you canplay at a conscious level with
all the things.
But they'll still stay at theirbaseline, because that's what

(46:29):
their body knows.
So for me, you'll get them downto their best, but if you want
to teach the body somethingelse, you have to make a
different space.
And if you ask for theirconsciousness to do it, they
can't because theirconsciousness only understands
the space they've been livingin.
So you have to do somethingelse.
You have to come in at adifferent level.
And then to come in at adifferent level, you have to be

(46:51):
very gentle and soft yeah, andthen again, you have to be
meaningful.
So, and then examples are thebest way to say this because it
just becomes so abstract soquickly.
I always talk about it like it'sDoctor Who's TARDIS, which
doesn't necessarily make senseto Americans.

Oh, no.
So many Americans know

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (47:13):
Oh, there we go.
Then we're fine.
Sometimes it doesn't, but it'sthat thing of, it looks little,
but when you go in, there'sdoors and doors and doors and
doors and doors and rooms androoms.
And that's what the body's like.
It all looks really basic andthen it isn't, but it is.
And it's, you know, it's multidimensionality.
It's, it's both at the sametime.
So an example is I work with a40 year old woman with A brain,

(47:37):
a brain injury from birth, likeI can't remember what the proper
term is for what she lives with,but, you know, chronic, chronic
brain injury.
So it had been totally shut downher whole life, etc, etc.
From oh, from that, from thatdrug we used to give women that
we don't do anymore.

Fen Fen or I don't know.
There's

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-202 (47:56):
an R, but anyway, it was really
chronic and, and so it justcompletely totaled people's
nervous systems.
And then, and then they're notable to function particularly
well.
So this woman has gone, youknow, I work with her and I work
with her mom, I, you know, butshe's, she's gone from, and it's
hilarious because I'm five footand she's huge.

(48:19):
So we look like a Clydesdale anda Welsh pony.
It's really funny.
It amuses me.
No.
And hilarious.
But her mom said even on thefirst session, wow, she never,
ever usually.
responds that way to people,especially for the first time.
And she was so open to you andshe was shocked.
And then the work that we didwas so fast for, for things that

(48:42):
unraveled, which I'll describe.
But what I did was I treated herlike I knew she was in there.
And people don't.
Because she's totally shut downand you've been told, Oh, she's
got brain injuries.
So there's no one home.
So then we teach her how to pickup a spoon.
Or, yeah, whatever.
But I don't.
I go, Hi.
And let me tell you, let me showyou what What I want to do and I

(49:05):
talk enough so that it's notoverly complicated, depending on
the, the ability of the brain totake in information depending on
where it's set, depending on thenervous system set.
But there's a person in therewho's completely witnessing and
absorbing as long as you don'ttrigger their nervous system.
Or, or annoy it by beingpatronizing and silly.

(49:27):
And so, I'll, I'll go, this iswhat I think, and I'll talk to
the mum and I know she'slistening.
And say, this is what I thinkI'm doing, and then I get the
mum to do the exercises.
Because if you have a prettyregulated system, the, the ball
exercise I've created can bringyou into a deeply meditative
state in about five minutes.

(49:47):
10, 15, 20 minutes, like, youknow, I did this thing in New
York with all these women andthey're like, Oh my God, it's
better than Botox because yourwhole face softens and
everything, you know, there'sthis way in which the, the
system when it is in a safeplace will soften and then be
connected in nice, easy ways.
So, yeah,

Are you talking about the thing you
were doing where you put thefoot where your feet on the
ball?
The reason I was making arelaxing sound when you said
that the first time is I know.
That feels so good to me on myhands and on my feet.
So like that, that kind of likekneading dough on my hands, if
it's like soft and nice and Ican smoosh it or on my feet, if

(50:29):
there's something that I canjust sort of move nicely with my
toes, huge difference.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (50:35):
you play there.
I also call it a kitten on a fatbelly which I'm playing with at
the moment because I have a tenweek old kitten.
So it's really fun playing PollyBagel games with my kitten.
But essentially it's that andthat feels nice to you and it
might feel nice to someone elsedepending on how much sensory

(50:56):
inflammation they can take in.
So, It, it's where, where I can,I can get someone with a fairly
robust system and show them thisexercise and you know, you do,
you push, stop, close your eyes,rest, feet long, do it three
times.
There's so much to it.
Again, it's like the TARDISwhere it's easy, but if you

(51:18):
can't do it.
We have to teach your body howto be able to move into a safe
space because it doesn't know.
It can easily get dysregulated.
If you've had trauma, you'reused to having your defenses up.
We don't want to take yourdefenses away too quickly.
So the body might happily moveit, or happily, it might move
into a softer state, but thatmight be very vulnerable, which

(51:40):
then triggers it.
And then you have a cascade of,of challenges in the same way.
So, I don't know if I'mexplaining it well, but it's
very intricate.
So, there's gradients of gettinggood at moving the body into a
safe space.
So, like with this woman, we didthat, and then I, I can't
remember.

(52:01):
It was years ago.
We I, I would have, Perhaps puther feet on the ball and that's
all and just see if she canhandle it.
I wouldn't have even touched herhand on that day.
But what we've progressed to isshe can do all of my most of my
exercises.
Not all of them.
she's getting better.
I like it.

(52:21):
There's points in which I can'tdo when I think someone's all
the way through they can do afull body scan like a yoga thing
where they can go and notice thetoe bones and go all the way up
the bones and all the way up tothe Blah blah blah People can't
do that because they're totallybeen immobilized forever.
They can't feel their body.
That's the other thing is whenyou're immobilized, you can't
feel you don't know if you'rehot or you're cold.
All this stuff turns off, but itcan turn on again.

(52:43):
So we're, we're, we're invitingthe body to move into a space of
safety that it can handle, andthen you can't go too fast.
So it's not a matter of teachingit something.
It's about inviting it to be inthat space and what will it
take.
So it takes the, the I thinkthat word's not right.
It takes the curiosity of theperson.
It, they have to, I can't gocomply.

(53:07):
It's a complicit, it'sdifferent.
It's like they're choosing to.
They, they have to want to doit.
You have to make sense to them.
You have to be, you know, therehas to be an openness.
And then you can slowly teachthem how to do this if it makes
enough sense.
But this woman, who, when I mether, would just sit there and
sort of go, Yes, and no, and dowhat she was told, and that's

(53:27):
her whole life.
Is now, her mum just keepsgoing.
I've got different, one or twosnippets on my website of the
mum, because she just keepssaying, She's in her seventies.
I keep having a totallydifferent relationship with her.
She keeps changing.
It used to be she was just inthe, and this isn't rude, but
dragging along aside her mom.

(53:49):
Whereas now she says it's apartnership.
This woman is.
Cleaning the kitchen andchoosing her own clothes and
they're looking at her movinginto the back building a room
for her out the back, like alittle house because she's
getting more and more efficacyin her outside life.
She's speaking more.
She's, there's a whole way thather Her brain, which we didn't

(54:10):
think because it's brain trauma,so it can't change, is stuck
with it, is starting to wake,wake up, re imagine itself,
because her internal physiologyis safe, and when it's safe, it
allows reconnection to thebrain, reconnection to the
heart, in those more externalways, but she's always in there,
and the only reason she workswith me, and she loves me, is

(54:32):
because I saw her first.
And I asked her permission andthis is where a lot of our
therapies are just heinousbecause we just come in and go,
well, you're stupid and I knowbest.
And even if you're really niceabout it, that's your inference
and you can't get anywhere ifyou, if you do it like that.
So I wrote,

I'm going to pause you because I
want, I think that bearsrepeating.
I've been thinking as you'respeaking about what makes safety
really, there's, there's so manythings, but when you just said,
because I saw her and I askedher permission, those are two
such huge things in safety.
I, I've, I know all of us haveexperienced the feeling of being

(55:13):
seen or not seen and have beenpushed or asked and our answer
has been invalued.
Or not valued so important tosafety.
What are some other

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (55:24):
can I, can I stay there then first?
Because I, it's to unpack that'sreally important.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04 (55:30):
please.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-0 (55:30):
There's two tiers at least to that.
One is the personal.
Permission and the, theconnection and the, the, the
respect.
of the fellow human being.
The other is the permission ofthe system and this is where I
will play.
You can do all of those rightthings but if that system, which

(55:53):
I just call an octopus because Ithink it's a great metaphor for
your internal system and it'smore than the vagal system, it's
the whole nervous system issentient because it makes
decisions and it opens and itcontracts and it thinks and so
you're, you're asking thepermission of the person then
you have to ask the permissionof the system.
And it might still say no.

(56:13):
It's made a decision to shutdown.
It had a jolly good reason areally long time ago, or last
week, depending on what's goingon, for, to be in that lockdown.
And it's not going to give it upjust because you're nice.
And it's not going to give it upbecause even if external things
shift and, and people are nicer,or even if the, the safety issue

(56:36):
is changed or, you know,there's, there's a level of
safety, which is, they're allreally good things.
And so I'm not negating any, anytherapies that work here, but
for me, there's a point at whichthat body's still going to go,
no.
And if it's known it sincebirth, it's going to go, I don't
even know what you're talkingabout.

(56:56):
I'll, I'm going to be stayinghere.
Thanks.
I know this is my choreography.
This is me.
And this is where we get intohookups with the autism advocacy
saying, this is me pride.
I totally understand it.
I respect it, but there's alevel at which actually you're,
you're more than your bodycontraction.
You're, you're more than thatexperience in a sense, because

(57:16):
I, I'm not religious, but Ithink we have a soul.
I think there's sentience, but Ithink there's all sorts of
things that we get to play withbeing embodied humans.
And so.
It's more interesting than thatand in that I think Autism is
very interesting.
It allows all sorts of thingsand I, I write and speak to that
a lot.
If you, if you want that person,they, at the person empowered

(57:42):
outer level, they have to sayyes and then you have to ask the
system.
And that's where you have to go,fine, you said yes, I can make
you now comply.
I can go fine now we're going todo this and now we're going to
do this and we're going to dothis and and that's what most of
our therapies still do eventhey're really nice but they go
okay now now let's go and I'mlike no now we don't now we stop

(58:02):
now where do we start that'sjust the beginning And each
session, you have to get thatyes from both and then go, what
can we have?
And you make a space and you're,you're learning to, you know, in
this, I'm teaching my therapist,you're, you're learning to hold
that space so that it's reallysafe.
And then the octopus, I getquite emotional talking about

(58:26):
this because it's beautiful.
But it's like the octopus mightput a little tentacle out.
and test the water and then Imight go back in again.
And it's the body going, maybe Ican.
And then you don't jump on itand drag it out and go, fine,
we're going to go sit in a chairand have a tea party and talk to
lots of people.
You go, that was clever.

And tell your parents how much I did
that I fixed you.
Let's go tell them all in bignoises.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02- (58:52):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I can justify my existence as aprofessional.
No.
What you do is you go, I cantolerate that I didn't do
anything in this session forother people.
As a, as a therapist, you know,but in session, if that octopus
is opened a bit, you know,quantum physics, anything you

(59:13):
look at changes, you have aslightly different shift in
choreography of the body goes, Imight think about that.
And then you leave it alone.
The trill of shiftinginformation flow allows an
entirely differentunderstanding.
And then you leave it and you,you let the body and the brain
have time to make sense ofitself in a new way.

(59:33):
And it opens.
And then it goes, I just didthat.
And then the person may or maynot notice, depending on how,
you know, much they can notice,they'll, it still influences and
other people will notice.
Other people, mums will go, hecame and gave me a big cuddle.
And this could be a big 17 yearold shut down kid.
He came, I got, I got a messagethe other day, this lady just,

(59:56):
just did my six week course.
and she went, I've got a really,you know, shut down, 17 year old
down syndrome chap.
We've just been doing the handpoints but he really likes it
and he just came up the otherday and gave me the biggest,
softest cuddle.
You know, and she's so emotionaland she's so proud of herself
because they've both done thistogether.

(01:00:16):
So it's, it's cool, but it's ithas to be done well and it has
to be done with all this levelof respect and then because that
octopus has put a littletentacle out and you didn't jump
on it and make it do somethingand perform it can go back in
and then it and the next timeyou go hi Maybe we could try a
little bit more.

(01:00:37):
So it does a little bit more,and it comes out a little bit
more, and then it, you know, andthen it just keeps coming out,
and then it might come fullyout.
You know, and this can takesometimes five days.
I do intensives, and they'reeight sessions, and the five
days are consecutive.
In five days, it might fullycome out, and know what that
means.
And then, It allows the personto fully know themselves in a

(01:01:00):
completely different way.
I've got testimonials in theback of my book, and they're fun
as really from like 40-year-oldautistic women who are, you
know, computer analysts.
Like, it's really fun.
But it's the, it's the lettingthe system make the decisions
and then holding it well so thatit can, and then it experience

(01:01:20):
itself.
And then the person has anexperience.
So I say it's like you're seeinga hero, a new hero emerge with a
person couldn't possibly haveunderstood what it, what it can
be like to be in a body that'smore open and it's a delicate

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04-01 (01:01:40):
what I was going to say.
Yeah.
What does it look like when theoctopus comes out?
What would that look like?
Like the The body safety

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02- (01:01:51):
Well, again, let me, I'll, I'll, I'll
go examples, everyone that Italk about I, I have permission
to discuss.
It's things like a 17 year oldbig burly kid would come and see
me and he was so shut down thatfor the first session he was
asleep.
Because the body justimmobilizes and people go, Oh,
you're just switching off.
You're lazy.

(01:02:11):
No, no, no.
He just goes to sleep.
He can't help it.
It's no choice.
And I'm like, well, okay, Idon't, that's not going to work.
So the second session we

dr-becca-whittaker_3_ (01:02:21):
Effective locking

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02- (01:02:23):
yeah, we went, all right, bring the
big brother in.
It's like, you listen, you checkall the family, like what's
going on, what's going to help.
And the big brother had autismas well.
They're not the big burly guy onmy tiny little couch and I had
two of them and then mum in theroom but the big burly one
doesn't fall asleep and thoughtwhat I was saying was
fascinating and did the exerciseand so the brother stayed online

(01:02:48):
enough to watch and then he waslike yeah okay I can give it a
go and then so then they comeback the next week which is Then
I was doing individual sessions.
I don't know each week he wouldthen do more, he would be able
to tolerate his feet, feet onthe ball.
He hated the hand points, so wejust didn't do them for a really

(01:03:10):
long time and he could getbetter and do a little bit and
then stand up and go, Oh, thatfeels really different or really
weird.
So you'd have to let him,because his whole vestibular
system changed because it's usedto being in a certain pattern
and then everything's.
Stems from that but then hewould be able to walk down the
stairs more easily he would beable to walk down the stairs
without leaning people walk downthe stairs and hold a cup and

(01:03:32):
chat and things like so aphysical level or I'll get
people to Do pre and post testslike with a bop bag a punching
bag and get them to do it at thebeginning and the end And
they're far more coordinatedbecause their eyes and their
ears and the physiology are allTalking to each other better.
But also with that kid it wasthings like, know, sometime

(01:03:53):
later he got a haircut becausehe wanted to.
He, he just did all these thingsjust happen that he was able to
go and sit in a restaurant withhis family and he paid for, he
got with his mom's car, but hepaid for it and then went next
door and had a look in a shopwhile everyone was in the

(01:04:14):
restaurant and they'll come backin and I'll go, so any changes,
anything happening?
And they'll go, Oh no, notreally.
And I'll go, okay, fine,whatever.
What are we going to do today?
And you just keep talking andthen they go, Oh, you know,
actually, and then they'll tellyou these stories.
Like the restaurant thing.
And I'll go, that's reallyinteresting.
Do you think that you would havebeen able to do that six months
ago?

(01:04:35):
And they go, Oh, no.
So it's like, it's, the mummight notice.
The family will notice becausethis person's more present, more
engaged, more socially.
That, you know, have more socialdesire, and I go capacity,
social engagement systemsworking better.
The operational system, thedesire to be in it is because

(01:04:57):
the body's in a better place andit's safer and it can stay
online for longer.
And they don't even necessarilyknow because it feels so normal.
You know, I did an intensiveyears ago with a, I work online
most of the time.
90% of my work's online.
This woman was in the us she wasin her twenties at college, and
at the end of it, she not onlysaid, I feel far more

(01:05:19):
spiritually connected to myself,which also, if you wanna go,
religious function requiresphysiology to be in a certain
way for safety so that you, youknow, it's really fun.
My mom's been playing with this.
She's quite excited.
She's theologian.
So we have a good chat, but.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04-01-2 (01:05:36):
so your physical life can also help
your spiritual life when youbecome more embodied and learn
how to feel better.
And interact with your ownphysiology.
Isn't that beautiful?
We spend so much time thinkingwe have to leave our bodies and
be some like guru on a mountainand truthfully go in, go in, go

(01:05:57):
in, but go in and learn how tohelp it feel.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (01:06:00):
You can't.
This is, we cauterize, we makethe brain everything.
The, you know, whether it's thatkind of thing that you're
discussing or just all of ourpsychology.
Like, this is why Paul justworks so cool.
In order to be in a, it's backto that triangle thing I was
talking about, you havemobilization with fear,

(01:06:21):
mobilization without fear.
I draw a little guru at thewithout fear one because the,
the end of that, the end of thatline in a sense is that you're
in a highly attuned state.
state to be able to accesshigher order consciousness.
Your body has to be in thatplace.
The, the my favorite thing inthe whole world is that we've

(01:06:44):
got 12 cranial nerves, right?
So they're all the eyes and earsand everything.
There's actually 14.
There's at least 13 and there isphysiologically it's

What?
This is amazing.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-202 (01:06:56):
we don't

Listeners can't see my face, but it's very
intricately moving right now.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (01:07:02):
It's there I was like, oh this is fun
It's called zero cranial nervethe 13th, which I love this
because 15 as well, but it's the13th cranial nerve It's the
zero.
It's the 13th first one, it'sunmyelinated.
So our newest evolutionaryfunction is all about new vagal
system.
They're all myelinated and whichmeans you have really good

(01:07:23):
coding on your nerves.
And so when you, when they'reall functioning well, you've got
strength and robustness and goodnervous system.
You've got coding, you've gotprotection,

fast along the

squadcaster-4j41_3_0 (01:07:32):
efficient, swift.

like electrical

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (01:07:34):
Yes, yes, exactly.
And you can utilize it.
Unmyelinated is differentbecause it doesn't have that.
So it's our older system.
This is where I grow octopus.
It's like it's our older systemthat develops first in utero.
It's our older wisdom.
It's our, it's our body noise,everything.
All our arms and legs and headgrow second.
This stuff grows first.

(01:07:54):
And then we come into form.
So we're already in form in waysat a, at a presence level, as a
sentience, as we're developingin the womb.
And so this 13th or zero, firstin a sense, but not number one,
number zero cranial point goes,it has to go into that system,

(01:08:16):
but it also goes up to yourthird eye.
Which I think is really funbecause you can't go into a
deeply meditative state unlessyour body's in the right place.
You can't be frenetic.
And we, all of our stuff islike, At the meditation, you
have to drive the body into astate of relaxation.
Whereas I think, you do it theother way around, it's way

(01:08:38):
quicker.
You bring the body into a stateof Felt like using the word
submission, but I don't thinkit's the right word, because of
the connotations that we use itas.
But, and this is the thing,we're often so bossy to the
body.
you know, would make it do

presence, respect, listening.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (01:08:54):
The, the Eastern understanding would
be Dantian or Dantian will, youknow, the, the, the whole gut
area has to soften, has to beopen.
And then when it's open, I thinkit allows this other, Lines of
communication like this zerocranial nerve to be activated
because the other ones have gonequiet in an immobilized way, but

(01:09:16):
not with fear without fear.
So they turn off because whenyou're in a deeply meditative
state, you're not using yourface.
You're not chatting to people.
You might be chanting, butthat's different.
Again, you're accessingdifferent parts of the brain,
but you're not in full frontallobe thinking, engaging eye
contact, doing all that stuff.
You're in this alternate space.
Which people on spectrum hangout in all the time, in lots of

(01:09:39):
ways, but their bodies are a bitmore cantankerous.
But you, you move instead theperson into this open state
where they, there's a sense ofpeace.
And harmony and then the braingives way and it will go into
that open the space and then youcan have higher order thinking
connection to higher orderstates.

(01:09:59):
It's it's still polyvagal.
We just don't talk about it.
We don't play with it.
And I'm not allowed to say sobecause it's zero credit would
open like same board is justlike, I'm not going there.
It's it's

I, I am just

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (01:10:12):
It's it's because you have to hold
some kind of line.
Otherwise it'll.
Okay.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_0 (01:10:18):
perhaps.
Yes, but I'm grateful for peoplewho speak the truth and say it
as it is.
Do you know how happy I am that.
Though this podcast is work toproduce, that means that right
now I'm talking aboutconsciousness and meditation and
neurology and cranial nerveslike this is just a Becca
absolute playground.

(01:10:40):
Thank you, Holly.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (01:10:42):
best fun.
Oh, yeah.
I'm so glad.
Yeah.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04-01- (01:10:45):
You said one thing that we skipped
over, but I keep thinking aboutit.
Your client who's son, um, or Iguess the son was your client.
She was taking the course and hehad down syndrome and gave her
the softest, cuddliest hug.
That is beautiful.
I have had many hugs from downsyndrome.

(01:11:07):
Kids, and especially if they arebig teenagers, they are not the
softest thing on the planet.
I had never thought about thatas being disconnected from their
body and perhaps nervous systemdysregulation.
A result of that is that we goin too fast and hard or too
soft.
And then if we notice people arenot responding well, then that

(01:11:27):
can make it seem difficult.
More confusing, right?
I'm saying we, I mean, like if,if I was a person with down
syndrome and I was trying togauge going in or coming back
out or with autism gauging howmuch to say, how much to emote.
And if I go in fast and hard andthen people are confused or

(01:11:47):
frustrated by it, then I have topull back and try to figure out
what that is like a constant,very stressful game that
probably does not help thenervous system in the

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (01:11:54):
If, your body's working efficiently
enough, enough.
You're not thinking about it.
You just do it.
It's not shall I, you know,shall I, shouldn't I, how am I
going to make this happen?
That's when, that's when you'repretty shut down, that you've
got to do that operationalstyle, or you're trying to meet
a situation that isn't flowing.

(01:12:15):
The point was it was just, hecould.
His system was in a better placeand he experienced some trauma
and so, you know, I thinkespecially with Downs, we're
really good at blocking it intothat's what it is.
Whereas you know, fabulousthings happening with Down
syndrome, which is just soexciting because of the.

(01:12:39):
the capacity of these people toactually open the system and
then open social engagement,open brain spaces, et cetera, et
cetera.
So for him, yeah, he just, Ithink, It, it, it allowed them
to have co regulation because,because of the work she was
doing with him.
But no, essentially how I, I, Ijust come right back to

(01:13:02):
Polyvagal 101.
His body's in a better place,therefore he can.
He doesn't have to think aboutit.
That's the bamboo, like, or thetaut guitar string.
Our nervous systems are just,allow or disallow us a
continuity with our world.
It's that, it's that.

Yeah.
And I think down syndrome is aperfect segue to talk about that
because That is a geneticchromosome disorder, right?
We look at that and we thinkthere's nothing to be done.
You just sort of put up with it,but what you're seeing so that
that's the genetics, but thephenotype, which is how we
express our genetics, how wemove and operate in the world,
that Or, and the epigenetics,basically, if people have heard

(01:13:44):
that phrase, that is even moreimportant.
And I think so much with labels,right?
With PTSD, with someone who hasbeen through abuse, with someone
who has autism, with someone whohas Lyme disease.
One of my diagnosis was myalgicencephalitis.
And if you want to be reallydepressed about your life, just
get a diagnosis.
It basically means you will be avegetable that is in pain

(01:14:05):
forever.
And what I've learned and whyI'm so passionate about the
nervous system regulation iswhatever you call this pattern,
right?
The diagnosis that is a patternof, of typical behaviors or
feelings or thoughts, ournervous system is running us the
whole time with whatever we callit.
So there is an opportunity foropening within that.

(01:14:29):
I made a decision within myillness after, after I had been
diagnosed with enough thingsthat were terrible and gone on
to the group websites and seeingthat everyone there felt
terrible.
I just thought I can't live thisway.
Like, I can't tell myself thatit's going to be like this
forever, or I just.
I just won't, I just won't wantto.

(01:14:51):
So when, when nervous systemregulation found me, I mean, I,
I was a geek about it before Igot sick, but when it found me
again as a patient, I thought,no, no, we can live without
water for days.
We can live without food forweeks.
We can only live without ournervous system a couple of
seconds and we're done.

(01:15:11):
Like you stop that connectionhigh enough in your neck and out
you go.
So master master system, we workwith it as chiropractors.
Lots of people work with it, butif you can learn to regulate it
and.
Move with it.
That's a huge gift.
So tell me how people can learnmore about what you do.
You said you have createdcourses.

(01:15:32):
Is this just for clinicians?
Is this for people that knowthey are a bit disconnected from
their body and want to make achange?
How can we learn more?

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (01:15:41):
So, I can't help myself.
I have to go back to what youwere saying just quickly.
I'm

dr-becca-whittaker_3_0 (01:15:47):
Perfect.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2024 (01:15:48):
I probably should run out of time,
but the whole point is that wehave just gone hard with fixed
brain pathology and diagnosesand this is a truth and the
truth is what you're saying isthat we're not.
It's far more interesting thanthat.
There's far more flow.
And then if you add on to that,everyone's.

(01:16:08):
I go click clack in their highheels needing to have a an
identity of working with that.
Everyone adheres to that andthere's a glass ceiling of how
much change we can have.
So I'm in this unique positionwhere I have a psychology degree
and I have played it.
You can tell I just love thisstuff.
I've been looking at it since Iwas a kid.

(01:16:30):
Just my best, best one, but Idon't have to hold to any
doctrine.
So I get to look at it and I getto look at it from my own
personal spaces.
One of which is autism.
So the, there's this, there'sthis delicacy of the system and
it can be so fluid.
And then there's also, chaos.

(01:16:51):
And you have to learn to playwith both.
And as a world, especially avery Western world, we like to
control chaos and make thingsneat so that we're safe.
It's all about safety at the endof the day, whichever way you
want to look at it.
So you want to start teachingpeople at a, like I call my work
in internal martial art, becauseyou're teaching them how to be
safe.

(01:17:11):
Just because It's not dependenton external things and it's and
so it's very interesting withtrauma You know, I'll work with
people with trauma a lot But Ialways make sure they have a
psychologist with them so theycan do that debrief hold safe
space in the cognitiveconsciousness way, which I do
but just But we, I like toreally play in that, in that

(01:17:35):
lower space of can, can we teachthe body to be safe just
because?
What does that feel like?
What is that?
And they're not, what can you dowith it?
But just get better at that.
Get better and better and betterand better and better at that.
So you get really robust justbecause.
It's fun.
So what I did is I, once I wrotethe book, which I didn't mean to

(01:17:56):
write, it just came to me.
So I wrote it, which is whathappened.

It's so beautiful.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-202 (01:18:01):
if you, I never tell people this,
but I will tell you, cause Ithink it will actually be quite
interesting for you.
Prior to writing the book, myhusband does soil sampling and
we were doing homeschooling andwe'd taken the kids.
We often I would, we would gowith him and so it's right out
into the desert in the West,West Australian desert.
It's beautiful.
But I, I woke up in the middleof the night in a tent, which we

(01:18:25):
don't usually sleep in, but wewere in a caravan park at that
point.
Usually we're just in swags.
And I had this art paper and Iwrote this thing on this art
paper.
It's it.
And I didn't know what it meant.
It was long, you know, quite anumber of paragraphs.
It was beautiful.
So I read it the next morningand went, oh, that's, I don't,
what, that's weird.

(01:18:46):
And I didn't know what to dowith it.
It took me a long time and I hadto go and see someone and say,
And she went, well, if I'dwritten that, I'd be really
happy.
And I went, it just felt tooconflated.
But the last, it's, it'sbeautiful, but it is what I'm
doing now.
It, it's, it I'm trying to thinkof the last line of it.

(01:19:07):
You're here to, it's somethinglike you're here to bring light
to the people who are going tohelp the world to come.
Something like that.
Like it was cool.
I was like, Oh, that's a bitbig.
But now that I'm doing thiswork, I, No, but I just followed
my string ever since and it'swhy I don't care what people say
I'm just like well, I can lookat the science.

(01:19:29):
I can back it up.
I've I Once I wrote the book, Iwent and worked in autism
services for ages and that'swhen I went.
Oh, that's me That's just me ona much more extreme level You
know, and then I could see itcould only go so far.
So you can see how the systemwill shift depending on if
people are safe, that we don'tdo anything with that, we don't

(01:19:49):
play with it.
So then I started developingthis therapy which is beautiful.
What I've done

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04-01- (01:19:56):
May I pause you before you, before
you tell me about the therapyjust so I can say, if you are
helping people like this, withthis depth of feeling.
People that are in my experienceon the autistic spectrum or have
been through lots of otherthings are also deep thinkers,
feelers, thought leaders, butthey're stuck, like stuck in

(01:20:18):
their body, stuck in theirexperience or stuck in their
anxiety.
If you are helping people to beable to come out of that and
expand into a place where theyare able to share the messages
that they Of, of the thoughtsthat they're marinating in there
anyway, that is a huge andbeautiful and so worthwhile.

(01:20:40):
It's just so worthwhile.
Anyone I know who's reallyworked with these people or who
loves these people knows theyhave an integral piece in this
world and it can be hard andreally sad to watch them be
stuck and what a miracle it isto watch them begin to open.
So I just fully support yourwork.

(01:21:01):
How do people learn more aboutit?

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-202 (01:21:02):
on that.
I'm so sorry.
I keep doing this to you.
I just want to add in.
I mean, I'm working with traumaas well, like people with
chronic PTSD, so they might nothave autism, but the system is
still that they and so again,they might only be able to put
their feet on the ball.
And they can't even move itbecause the minute that gets, it

(01:21:23):
sets off a cascade ofinformation and then the body
has to learn to hold that.
But then they'll come back andthey'll go, this and this and
this and this happened, youknow.
So it's, and then Parkinson's,like you, you start playing with
neurosensory stuff.
And so it's the, the efficacy ofthe work I'm, I'm watching.
My, my person who's fullythrough as a trainee is in New

(01:21:46):
South Wales, his, his he's amental health nurse.
So he's he's been, he's got healso does counseling and he's,
he's working with schizophrenicsand he's been working with some
people for long enough before hestarted doing this and now he
started doing this with them andthere's all this change.
So it's unbelievably interestingto me.

dr-becca-whittake (01:22:06):
Schizophrenia is my apex example of someone
that is trapped.
just trapped in there.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-202 (01:22:12):
in a very, very trigger happy
shutdown system, it's

yeah.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-202 (01:22:17):
so beautiful.
It's so kind.
And then you have to teach itwell, you have to be light, you
have to make enough science.
I draw stick figures, like I'm,you know, like in the book I do,
but I, so I've made thesecourses.
I've got a six week coursethere, there's, there's two, but
they're basically the same.
It's just one is forprofessionals in the sense that

(01:22:38):
they can have a CPD accredited.
a certificate as well and toprove they've done it with tests
whereas the other one is peoplecan just run through it up and
down as they need to, because alot of people can't.
I work in a linear fashion, so Ihave a whole range of people
that access this and love itfrom families to adult autistics

(01:22:59):
to clinicians at a variety oflevels.
I've got a I've got a UKpsychiatrist that's starting to
learn my work, which is really,you know, it's like it's because
it makes sense what I'm actuallysaying.
Everyone knows it's and I think,you know, bridges is a great
word.
for my surname, which is myhusband's because it it's
bridging that and I, I, I'm justgood at it.

(01:23:19):
I've made those two courses.
They're on my website.
And then I have a year longcourse, which is the first year,
but a separate thing in its ownof the three year training to do
therapist training.
So the first one is just do thaton your own.
And then, then we see what youwant.
Cause what I found is that It'ssuch a deep dive.
It takes people, you know, youcan hear from our conversation

(01:23:41):
that look what it is, how deepand wide and vast.
It's enough sometimes for peopleto have that much and then they
go back into their real world.
And they re inform their realworld.
Which is when I'm asking someoneto do the therapy training and
come out the other end, theycome out somewhere quite
different.
You know, like really, it's

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04- (01:24:02):
That's life.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (01:24:02):
lot.
Yeah.
So, so yeah, so there's mycourses, there's my book, you
know I had to make themavailable because my, my wait
list I had to close.
You know, I open it up every nowand again, but it's I, I, I
don't oversee clients.
I make sure I have a lot ofspace.
I need a lot of downtime afterI've worked, when I'm too
intensive, because you're, Ifeel almost like it's midwifing

(01:24:26):
people.
That's what it feels like.
And when I was talking I wastalking in New York actually
quite a few years ago, there wasthis woman, who is a midwife and
her husband's on the spectrumand all the kids are on the
spectrum and she said the wayyou're talking is exactly
textbook what a midwife does,which I just thought was
beautiful but people say they'llgo, you know, we did a study

(01:24:48):
last year and you know, Nineyear olds and a 59 year old
woman with, with autism, ADHD,chronic PTSD and a whole lot of
other physical stuff and whatshe couldn't stop explaining,
exclaiming.
At the end of, you know, we didfive days and then we did the
follow ups.
That was it.
So it's eight sessions.
She's going, I'm in my body forthe first time.

(01:25:10):
She said, I'm married to mybody.
She said, it's not like beingreborn.
I'm in it for the first time.
It was, it was phenomenal.
And then not, you know, we, wedid some follow up sessions,
which weren't part of the study,but she can't feel heat or cold.
And with one of the sessions,She went hang on a sec I just

(01:25:30):
have to go upstairs and get somesocks because my feet are cold
and then she went Oh, that'sweird.
And then she went past and shelooked at the temperature gauge
on her way up.
She came back down She sat backdown.
She went I just have to checkbecause I think it's got even
colder and she went back and ithad gone down by a degree

Wow.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (01:25:48):
how much does that influence your
life?
You don't think any of thatstuff.
It's just there so much fun.

dr-becca-whittaker_3_04- (01:25:59):
Holly, your work is amazing.
I think the way that you havegone in your life, I know we
didn't talk about it, but movedfrom a homesteading mom into the
things that you just really loveto geek out about and
incorporated, you know,everything from your past that
That moves you toward being ableto see people in this way that
is not stuck in a system and beable to help them come out of

(01:26:23):
it.
I just respect that so much.
And I enjoy you.
So it's probably time for us tocut it loose, but I will put all
of the links for how people canget ahold of you, how they can
look at your courses and thelink for your book.
It's still called reframe yourthinking around autism.
Correct?
Okay.
I'm just so grateful for yourtime and for your work in the

(01:26:43):
world.
Thank you so much for what youdo, Holly.

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-2 (01:26:45):
It's so much fun to have someone to
talk to who knows exactly whatI'm saying.
It's best fun.
So I think I've had a lovelytime.
Thank you very much.

I think we should be really good
friends.
Let's just

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02- (01:26:55):
think it's happened.
It's happened.

I want to go to Australia anyway.
Let's do

squadcaster-4j41_3_04- (01:27:02):
Awesome.

Okay.
Thank

squadcaster-4j41_3_04-02-20 (01:27:03):
See ya.
So that's Holly Bridges.
See what I mean?
I'm so glad to be able to sharethis conversation with you.
My takeaways, my top threetakeaways would be this.
Number one, if you've neverexperienced the feeling of being

(01:27:24):
locked in your body, it's hardto explain, but Holly did a good
job.
If you have ever experienced thefeeling of being locked in your
body, You will never forget it.
And when she talks about thestates of fight, flight, or
freeze, or fawn, I love how shedescribes it, that it's
important information about thestate of your nervous system.

(01:27:46):
It's not a personal failing.
Most people I know that havegone into trauma, PTSD, or some
kind of meltdown on the, ifthey're on the autistic
spectrum, we take it personally.
It feels like a thing that weshould be able to control, and
that we should be able to stop.
It's important.
and come back to normal.
And it can be incrediblydifficult to do that.

(01:28:07):
You can get more space and itcan be incredibly, and it can be
incredibly difficult to do thatbecause it is information that
your nervous system is givingyou.
I love that perspective becauseyour nervous system is trying to
regulate and get back tobaseline.
So it will often tell you whatit needs from you.

(01:28:27):
It might want you to shut youreyes.
It might want you to block thesound coming in from your ears.
So there just isn't so muchsensation on top of an overload.
It might ask you to shake or toflap is what it looks like in
the autistic realm.
Shaking off the trauma is whatit looks like in the trauma
realm, but sometimes it asks youjust to immobilize.

(01:28:49):
Until you feel safe.
And again, not a personalfeeling.
It's information from yournervous system.
I love that reframe because ifwe can learn to listen to our
nervous systems, we'llunderstand what they're trying
to get us to do.
And then we can help instead offeeling like we are taken over
by them.
Number two, she talked aboutneuroception, and I love that

(01:29:11):
geeky word.
How she described it was ourphysiologic state.
Actually, how she described itwas your physiologic state
actually allows your level ofconsciousness, Which allows your
social engagement and yourcapacity often, especially in
autism.
But in many other things likePTSD, we look at it backwards.

(01:29:33):
We look at it as we're trying totrain social behaviors in or
force people to have morecapacity than they really have.
And that's working in a backwardstate.
If you go to the physiologicstate, then their consciousness,
We'll change as it gets moresafe, and that level of
consciousness is what makes itso we are actually able to
allow.
When I learned that was a reallykey factor in helping people

(01:29:58):
that are very close to me, thatare on the autistic spectrum
instead of constantly naggingabout behaviors.
If we go to the physiologicstate and the sense of safety.
Then their nervous system hasmore capacity, their
consciousness can open up, andthen they actually want to
engage more, or even have thecapacity to engage more.
Us that if it doesn't feel safeto you, you will be continually

(01:30:23):
scanning your environment.
That is just a thing that we do,it's a survival mechanism.
But that continual scanning ofthe environment can lead to a
lot of anxiety.
And in a lot of us that strugglewith nervous system regulation,
the baseline of our nervoussystem state is already so
overloaded that it can be hardto handle any more sensation,

(01:30:45):
which leads us to number three.
Take away is that you can learnhow to give your baseline a
little bit more room.
You can learn how to bringyourself out of a state of
continual scanning for threat.
And a feeling like you're closeto overwhelm all the time
anyway, I love to the quote.

(01:31:05):
She said that we see anxiety asa mental issue, but she sees it
as a physiological issue first,and that she works on teaching a
body that maybe has never feltsafe, how to get itself into a
state of safety.
I love how she talked about thatin her work, she could be
teaching a body that maybe hasnever felt safe, how to get

(01:31:29):
itself into a place of safety.
I love that imagery of like aninternal martial art, where
you're learning how to flow.
With what's there.
If you would like moreinformation and more hands on
information about how she doesnervous system regulation
through the senses, look up herwebsite, which I have all of the

(01:31:49):
links posted in the show notes,but it is ART, art, but anxiety,
reframe technique, or get a copyof her book.
It is an easy read and it's suchgreat information that is
reframe your thinking aroundautism.
That is Reframe Your ThinkingAround Autism again by Holly
Bridges.
It has been my honor to guideyou through this season and to

(01:32:13):
host and facilitate, edit andproduce these conversations that
make it so that we can havethese people's voices in our
head guiding us towards a betterlife.
I hope it has made a differencein your life.
It certainly has in me and I'llsee you next season.
Thank you.
Bye.
Okay.

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