Meditation, Mindfulness, and Powerful Emotions: Less Suffering Required with Yael Shy

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the WhatReally Makes a Difference
podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Becca Whittaker.
I've been a doctor of naturalhealth care for over 20 years
and a professional speaker onhealth and vitality, but
everything I thought I knewabout health was tested when my
own health hit a landslide and Ibecame a very sick patient.

(00:22):
I've learned that showing up forour own health and vitality is a
step by step journey that wetake for the rest of our lives.
And this podcast is aboutsharing some of the things that
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today's topic.
My incredible guest network andI will be sharing some practical

(00:45):
tools, current science andancient wisdom that we all need,
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and we can all start walkingeach other home.

(01:07):
Welcome to the show today.
I am so glad you are here.
Before we jump into thewonderful conversation that I'm
so grateful to be able to sharewith you, just wanted to share a
couple of things.
First of all, for any of you wholistened last week to Dr.
Tom Michaud's conversation, Dr.
Tom Michaud's conversation, Ihope you have listened to it at
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(01:28):
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(02:11):
started to use it and we are allgetting Wonderful results.
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So if anyone was listening tothat and is interested in the
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So you can actually get 10percent off of the Topro by

(02:33):
using the code Dr.
Becca at checkout.
That's all in caps D R B E C CA.
And you can find that at humanlocomotion.
com.
So for today, I am trulygrateful to be able to share
this conversation with you.
I Was able to bring on to thepodcast, none other than Yael

(02:54):
Shai, and she is a fantasticteacher that I am just grateful
I got to spend time with, letalone record and pick her brain.
She is the founder and directorof Mindful NYU.
It is the biggest mindfulnesscampus based program in the
country.
She's also the senior directorof the Center for Global and

(03:14):
Spiritual Life at NYU.
She is now the CEO ofMindfulness Consulting, LLC,
which is a consulting group thatcan help you if you want more
information or more coaching onmindfulness.
meditation or the principlesthat she talks about in this
conversation and also in herbook.
She's also the author of WhatNow?

(03:36):
and it is a book about helpingyou in transitions of life.
It's written specifically forpeople in their 20s and 30s but
really it's for everyone beyondthat age as well.
The teachings in it are justBeautifully described and she
relates them with herexperiences and I just found it

(03:57):
easy to read because it is sorelatable and the thoughts are
kind and intriguing and sheshares a lot of information on
the podcast.
We talk about meditation andmindfulness, some of the common
misconceptions people have thatcan make people quit or feel
unsuccessful with meditation.
And we talk a lot about feelingemotions without tumbling into a

(04:20):
vortex of them.
Interesting juxtaposition wediscuss about fear and desire
and anger and patience.
She also says forgiveness is theopposite of forgetting.
And I'm going to let her explainwhy that is true.
This is an episode to listen to.
So, over and over again, everytime I hear her speak, I just

(04:41):
feel some of those inner kind oftired and cracked parts of
myself that start to rememberhealing.
So I'm grateful for the time Ihave with her and I'm excited to
share it with you.
And without further ado, here'sthe A.
L.
I am I'm incredibly grateful tobe here with you today, Yael.

(05:03):
I feel like it is a blessinganyway to be with you because of
what you teach and how you teachit, but a personal blessing for
me in two parts.
One, I don't know if you've everread a book that touched you and
that you wish you could tell theauthor thank you or discuss some
things in detail and you know,when do you get to talk to the

(05:25):
authors really?
But your book, What Now?
been just a wonderful guidingstar for me and it's covered in
notes.
There's my chicken scratch allover the inside and there's
where post it notes all overthe, so I'm just grateful to be
able to tell you thank you andto talk about some of these
things more deeply.

(05:46):
I feel very grateful to be here.
I'm very grateful.
Yay.
And as you know, but theaudience might not know, the
reason I'm able to talk to youtoday is because of, of a
shared, deep friendship, or foryou family member that we have.
So, ah, I was going to try to dothis without crying, but that

(06:06):
may or may not happen.
One of my dearest friends, JolieKramer, is your aunt, and she's
the one that put your book in myhands, and she has since passed
now, but I have just felt hernear me.
Being proud of you andencouraging me as I was reading
the book and I just wanted toshare again my gratitude for you

(06:31):
when I reached out and told youabout our friendship and, and
the kindness that you gave me bybeing willing to come on the
show.
So thank you.
Oh, you're gonna get me too.
She was just great.
She was so funny and Kind andlike, I know she's family, but

(06:54):
she's, she was also kind of myfriend, you know, just just a
really one of a kind person.
So I definitely feel herpresence and bringing us
together.
Yeah, same.
Okay, so your book is calledWhat Now?
And it's written aboutmeditation and mindfulness and
feeling emotions without lettingthem throw you down a vortex of

(07:16):
emotion.
Books like that are oftenwritten in a tone that is more
friendly for people in their 40sand beyond.
What I love about yours is it'swritten for transitions, and
it's written for college age or20s and 30s.
And when I began to read it andthought of that, I thought,
that, that's brilliant, becauseso many of the decisions we make

(07:41):
right then affect the rest ofour lives.
But also not many people aretalking to that age range.
I have a son who is just aboutto go into college and is
feeling every bit of the anxietythat you talk about being so
prevalent.
And I don't remember feelingthat much anxiety.
In fact, I was kind of naive asto what was coming up.

(08:01):
I just figured if I did a greatjob, I'd figure out what I
wanted to do and the money wouldcome and of course I'd be safe
and it would be fine.
And then for me, life gave mehard knocks and taught me that,
you know, sometimes it isn'tthat easy.
So we kind of had differentapproaches and I haven't been
sure how to be present for myson or for his friends.

(08:22):
I think they Are more observantthan I was and they're more
aware of what is really outthere and the transitions are
scaring them.
So I'm grateful you wrote tothat age.
Will you tell me a little bitmore?
Why you chose that age to writeto and why you what you picked
the format the way you did.
Yeah, so I first startedmeditating when I was in my 20s

(08:48):
when I was in college.
Out of a.
It was a total hurricane ofsuffering.
I was having, you know, just alot of pain and difficulty.
Not that my story is, like, themost traumatic.
There's certainly way moretraumatic things that happen to
young people.
But just the kind of everydaytraumas of experiencing loss,

(09:13):
change, you know, parentsgetting divorced, relationship
ending, and then just in thekind of world.
Trauma of 9 11, which is whathappened when I was in college.
And you were very close to thatarea, right?
Yes, exactly.
I was in New York City.
We had to, you know, there wasall the evacuations happening.
I was going to NYU at the time.

(09:35):
And there was also just thiskind of tremendous time of
possibility and openness andanxiety about that possibility
and questions like, I reallywant to find love.
Is love real?
It certainly doesn't look likeit from the people in my family,
and you know, I want to have agood career, but what does that

(09:56):
even mean?
I don't even know myself wellenough, and so there's all of
this hope and possibility at thesame time as so much anxiety and
change, and it happens thatthat's when I started
meditating, but it also becamemy career and the people I work
with, because I worked at NYUafter I graduated.
I, you know, went to college.

(10:18):
Graduate school and then I cameback and working with students
every day, day in, day out, Isaw that they were facing a lot
of the same challenges I wasfacing.
But to your point, with evenmore stressors since social,
because of social media, becauseof all of the changes to the way

(10:39):
that we receive information andare bombarded by information and
all of our kind of addictions tophones.
But.
I didn't even have that at thetime, and I felt plenty anxious.
And so some of the story is asold as time, you know, like it's
just a time of change for youngpeople in their 20s and 30s.
And some of it is additional newchallenges and stressors that

(11:04):
young people now are facing.
And the research is horrible,unfortunately.
Like the research says Gen Z isthe loneliest class of people
that are out there right now,like to serious, terrifying
lengths of how lonely they are,how anxious they are, you know,

(11:24):
higher levels of depression thanall the other ages, age groups
combined.
So really concerning things forthe young people.
And at the same time, they'reawesome.
Like, I still teach at NYU.
I still love working with thispopulation.
And I think That their, theirminds are smart, like brilliant,

(11:45):
like adults, but they don't havethe layers of defense and
jadedness that I think olderadults have, that we all kind of
grow as we get older.
So there's just like this realWillingness to get in there, to,
to change their life, to move innew directions, to challenge

(12:07):
their thinking, but also theiradults, because like, I've
worked with some high schoolersor younger kids and I That is
not my population.
I really struggle with them.
So that's why I love, I loveworking and teaching to that, to
the 20s and 30s crowd.
I love that you're saying whatyou are about that age.

(12:27):
Because there's so much talkabout how they are lazy and they
won't work and they won't, whatI have found in the, in the
children I've known directly.
Which, you know, it's just myslice of the world.
But, The, the teens and theearly twenties age people that
I'm seeing right now are exactlyas you described.

(12:48):
I think they just, they seemmore hesitant going out in the
world, but for me it's becausethey, they seem more observant,
more anxious, and more aware.
But also fully capable of doingthe, the inner work if they know
what inner work to do.
But if you think you want tocalm down and you look on

(13:09):
Instagram, And try to figure outhow to calm down through the
advice given there.
I mean, that doesn't work for meeither.
So having a vehicle to teachsome of these really complicated
topics with really relatablestories, I think is a huge gift.
I came across meditation andstarted earnestly meditating

(13:31):
when I was 15.
But that was because I wastaking martial arts.
It was a Japanese style calledninjutsu.
And the meditation was basicallya vehicle for us to get in tune
with our inner power.
We were learning energy work.
We were learning how to controlour minds.
And then from the space ofcontrolling our minds, move out

(13:52):
into working with elementalthings.
And I witnessed some amazingthings when people would get in
a meditative space and be ableto do things like become
heavier.
than they were or become lighterthan they were.
Just some neat stuff.
But it was about controllingyour mind, right?
It was about almost usingmeditation as a tool or as to

(14:13):
make your mind another weapon.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
I used it that way but it was apressure thing for me and I've
heard many other people talkabout meditation that have
started it.
And it just makes them feel badabout themselves or worse about
their mind.
Like, okay, my sister, Iremember one time said, I know
I'm supposed to make my mind awhiteboard, but there is always

(14:36):
something on the whiteboard.
Like it just makes me feel likeI'm bad at that even more.
And I, I did meditation andpreparing for my first child.
I was doing hypnobirthing and tokind of make it so the pain
wasn't as much, but then whenthe pain was still present and I
couldn't turn it into pressure,I felt again like a failure.

(14:58):
So you talk about in your book,and I've heard you talk about an
interview too, saying one of theWorst things we do for
meditation is promote the ideathat someone who meditates is
this like blissed out woman inyoga clothes that has no worries
or a monk in the mountains andthey can do it because they are
alone and not in relationships.

(15:19):
I love your take on meditation.
So with the background of what Ihave seen in meditation or
heard, how can you describe tome what is your way of looking
at meditation?
What is the point of meditation?
And why would we do it?
Really good question.
And I, like, like many peoplelike this, I think you said your

(15:42):
sister, someone that you'redescribing of like, I can't make
my thoughts go away.
I also felt that way when Istarted, and it was horrible.
Like, first I found it just likeinsanely boring, and I just kept
falling asleep.
And I didn't want to do any moreof it.
Found like, okay, you know, Iwas thrust into this.

(16:02):
I, I saw that when I didmeditate, like, oh my gosh,
amazing things startedhappening, but the process was
so brutal that I never wanted todo it.
Like, it was just like, stopthinking, stop thinking, push
away the thoughts.
Slash the thoughts with amachete, like that's the, the
images that were going in mymind, like try and get rid of

(16:23):
them, get clear.
And it was so violent and notfun.
Like you said, total feelings offailure, like I'm a bad
meditator, this just must not befor me.
Oh, but there's like these goodthings that come with it.
Ah, like just that horriblefeeling of, of, about it.
So, you know.

(16:46):
What my number one message thatI want to get across to people,
that I really want people tohear is like that is not the
point to not, to not think, tostop your thoughts, to have like
the whiteboard.
Even give another thought to thewhiteboard.

(17:07):
Like, that is not howHallelujah! Hallelujah! Like,
that's not the idea, that's notthe point to quiet all thoughts.
Our thoughts, our mind thinksjust like our heart beats.
It's like, what it does.
It is what its function is.
So, it would be crazy to belike, let's stop the heart

(17:27):
beating.
You know, we wouldn't want that.
Same thing, we don't need tostop our minds from thinking.
The game of it, the, the fun ofit, is that in order to really
come to see life as it'shappening, in order to see the

(17:48):
world, to wake up in our lifeand not be constantly rehashing
things that have happened, orconstantly re rehearsing things
that might never happen, that'sthe past and the future, We need
to, in some way, shape, or form,unblend ourselves from our

(18:09):
thoughts.
Because right now, normally,most people, nearly all people,
all the time, are living insideof your thoughts.
So that every thought you have,you kind of entertain it, and
you're in it, and you go downthe roads of it.
And when, when you live lifethat way, you miss life.

(18:29):
The only thing that sometimescracks you out of that non stop
strain of thinking are bigthings, you know, like big fear,
like big frights or big momentsof like radical awe.
Those can get us out of ourthoughts, like, you know, I
don't know, big things.
But, that's not how we have tolive.

(18:52):
We could shift that equation andlive more of our time.
In life, as it's happening,present to what is unfolding and
coming up on a, on a regularbasis and then sometimes using
our thoughts because they'rethere and, you know, they're
useful.

(19:13):
So, it's The point of meditationis kind of shifting the balance
there, not getting rid of thethoughts, but kind of shifting
the amount of time that we liveour life in our thoughts versus
the amount of time we live ourlife in our life.
Yeah.
With things as they're comingup.
Oh, that's beautifully said,beautifully said.

(19:35):
I think a line I wrote down fromyour book is that in meditation
we are training our Mind to payattention to the present moment.
What are some favorite practicesthat you do?
This is coming from, I haveheard other people teach and I
have tried also that when I ammeditating now, I am focusing on

(19:59):
trying to be kind to myself.
If I notice that I have Checkedout and started planning a
dinner or rehearsing this nextthing or whatever and labeled
the thought as, oh, planningahead or, oh, Frustrated, or,
oh, relationship, or, like, justlabel it and let it move past.

(20:19):
Sometimes my mind getsfrustrated with that, or my
inner self gets frustrated withthat, like, yes, I am aware that
I can't focus, and yes, I amaware that I think about this
relationship 2, 500 times a day!Like, some, I know, myself and
some other people sometimesstruggle with, what actually is
the practice?
Just paying attention to yourbreath in.
or breath out.

(20:40):
My mind gets bored quickly.
What are some of your advice forpeople that that are starting to
meditate or that have beenmeditating for a while but
haven't found as much of that,as much of the benefits?
What's a kind or some of thekind practices you would
suggest?
Yes, so such a good question.
So I have, I have two favorites.

(21:04):
The first one is what I do whenI really need to like create a
little bit of space in the mind.
Because like you said, likeyou're, you're obsessively or
you're in a thought loop andit's like non stop.
And I need to kind of like getsome distance from all of those
like thoughts.

(21:25):
So for those moments.
I do, that's, that what you'retalking about, an anchoring
practice, something that likewhere I find an anchor in the
body or a place, a point ofattention, and I do keep
bringing my attention backthere, but how I've shifted from

(21:46):
where I started was when Istarted, as I mentioned, I used
to like notice I was thinkingand then like hack at it with a
knife or something.
Yeah.
So now, I'm trying, in the waythat you're describing, to bring
more kindness to that.
I like to think about the, Ilike to imagine the thoughts are

(22:06):
like children.
And I'm the teacher.
And they're coming into theclassroom, and I'm taking their
attendance.
So I like imagine that I'mputting my hand on their little
heads, and I'm like, oh, futurethinking is here.
And I tap that one on the head.
And he comes in, maybe stays fora little bit, maybe leaves.
But I'm kind of resting backwith my point of, point of focus

(22:30):
to just build some of thatpresent moment awareness.
And then in comes like obsessivethought about relationships.
Okay, here's obsessive thoughtabout relationship, might come
in, I come back to that point ofanchor.
Some people can't stand thebreath.
When I first started, the breathwas really agitating to me, it

(22:51):
wasn't calming or relaxing.
So you can use the breath asyour anchor, but you can also
use just kind of like thefeeling of your body in the seat
or your feet against the floor.
Again, just to build a littlebit of that space in, to feel a
little bit of that presence.
And it's not, the point is notto be a good breather, you know,

(23:13):
or a good sitter.
The point is to just find thatspace.
spaciousness in the moment tojust be there with what is
there, with all the littlechildren in your mind, like that
is actually the point.
So it's not a failure.
When you notice the thoughtscoming through, it's actually
the point you're building thatsense of awareness around it.

(23:35):
Oh, I love how you explainedthat because truthfully, if I
can think of something that Icould gift myself or so many
other people, I know it would bea little.
space in your mind and learningto be with what is instead of I
feel like in our culture we aare barraged by information

(23:56):
either self inflicted or even ifit's not self inflicted there's
just thoughts and analyticalthings coming in all the time
all the time so extra space isgreat but also To learn to treat
that with kindness, the kindnessof the presence of what is, I
feel like with tech, which we'lltalk about later, or so many

(24:18):
other things, we can start toget into what is, and if it's
uncomfortable, or even if it'sgreat and we're worried the
great might not last, then it'sa strong, it's easy to step out
of what is.
Easy.
If we're feeling uncomfortable,we can look up something else to
make it go away.
And from my experience in lifeand in illness recovery and in

(24:40):
parenting and in being a doctor,truthfully, the present moment
is where we have all of thepower and all of the decision
making.
It's where we learn how to loveourselves, which is the well we
can pull from to love otherpeople truly.
And learning how to welcome inthose, I love how you talk about
them little children, but how towelcome in the little children

(25:02):
that are present.
helps us in real time when we'refaced with someone else who has
things coming in their livesthat maybe aren't that pleasant.
If I don't know how to handle orhave patience with my own
anxiety, I know it is triplehard to have patience with my
son's anxiety, for example.
I feel like it is the learninggrounds, but only if we do it

(25:24):
kindly.
You say something later on inthe book that said, each time I
return to myself in meditation.
I realized I had sent a messageto myself that I was worth
returning to.
And I think, wow, if we can be ateacher with those children, or
if we can understand like, Oh, Iwent away.

(25:45):
Oh, I'm coming back kindly.
If we learn how to welcomeourselves back into our lives
kindly, I think that helps us beable to love anyone else that we
come across with a lot morecompassion.
Ah, that's so beautiful.
My friend Lodro Rinsler saysthat like, he teaches this
practice where instead of likethe little children metaphor or

(26:09):
the whiteboard metaphor, what heuses sometimes is when he
realizes he's lost in thoughtand he brings himself back, he
says, I love you.
Like, just, I love you, like,I'm returning back to you, like,
it sounds so silly, but that'sthe underlying thing we're
trying to, like, really teachourselves.

(26:30):
This is a practice, like yousaid, of real self love.
I used to think I had, like,high self esteem.
I felt good, you know, like,just as a kid, but the one thing
that this meditation has reallytaught me was, like, Wow, I
speak to myself more, more inthe, I used to more than I do

(26:54):
now, but like those, thosevoices inside that are so mean,
so cruel to ourselves, like, Ithink I didn't, I wasn't even
aware of it until I startedbeing in quiet and listening to
them being like, ouch.
Painful.
Yeah, and I think that's part ofwhy a lot of people don't like

(27:15):
to meditate.
It's like great Now I knowwhat's happening inside my head
and really the last three years,so I had a Massive illness that
meant I had a lot of time on myown.
I was visually and auditory verysensitive so I would just have
to lay by myself in my bed,which would have Which was not
easy for me, but that was when Istarted to learn my inner

(27:39):
voices.
I have like a mean girl, like amean middle school, early high
school, mean girl in my head,constantly judging myself and,
and evaluating my effect on theworld from a really, I can't
believe you did that sort ofplace, but learning that voice
was there, even though it wasvery uncomfortable to hear at

(28:02):
first.
It just helped me to be able toat least let it be present where
I knew what was happeninginstead of letting that mean
girl voice run my life.
It's like, yes, now I know it'sthere, which is uncomfortable.
That's a whole lot better thanbeing directed by it and not
having any idea I'm beingdirected by it.
Right, right.

(28:23):
Yeah.
I think that's right.
I, I felt that way too, like soclearly, like you're ruining the
world, like you don't deserveanything.
It's And what I foundinterestingly is like, so step
one, realize that voice is notGod, like that voice is not the
truth of who things, of who Iam, or it doesn't know the truth

(28:47):
of me.
All of that, that, that's likestep one in the journey, I
think.
And then, when I actually turntowards it, And I really like
talk to it, which is part of,you know, my practice.
And I do this with clients too,like, Well, what, where, who,

(29:09):
what is this?
Who is this?
Why have I come to be?
Why?
What is the point of talking tomyself this way?
Why are you here?
Yes, exactly.
And so often, 99 percent of thetime, This, I had maybe 100
percent of the time, this voiceturns out that it's like really,

(29:29):
it's first of all very young, itgot like formed very young, and
it's often, I mean, it, it wantsto help us.
Yeah.
There's something it reallywants for us, like it's trying
in some.
twisted way to try and help us.
And so it becomes about likereally understanding why did it

(29:50):
get formed that way?
What is it scared of?
What does it want for us?
And when you kind of tease thatapart, it's so much less, it's
like the bully, the schoolyardbully, when you like look in its
eyes, it's just.
Horrified.
Yep.
All it wants is, like, love, andthis is, like, the best way it

(30:10):
figured out to try and get it.
Yeah.
And then it just, like, defangsthat monster so much, and it's
so healing.
My mean girl I discovered when Ifinally was, like, this is a
really mean voice, like.
Why are you here?
What are you, what are you?
And it was, you, you speak inyour book about Larepa facing

(30:35):
the demons in the cave, whichwe'll talk about when we get to
fear.
But I, I finally looked at mymean girl, finally, and just
asked with curiosity, not triedto shove her down or judge
myself that I have a mean girlin my head or whatever.
When I finally asked why she wasthere.
She was there fully forprotection.

(30:56):
She wanted me to be payingattention to all of these things
so that I could be accepted.
So that I could be safe.
And the more that I inquired ofher, she came into fruition at a
time when I had a lot ofproblems happening in other
places in my life.

(31:16):
And I deeply felt I needed to beaccepted by my friend group.
And it was middle school and youknow, everybody's.
In their own stuff in middleschool.
So, uh, but I learned it was adeep trying to protect me.
And as I then, as adult Becca,could see that and could see

(31:38):
this scared middle school girl,I knew how I could talk to her
now and love her and explainabout middle school and explain
about what traumatic things Iwas in and just hold her like I
would if she was my child or myfriend's child, and that's made
it much easier.
So when she comes up, I know whyshe, I know why she's there.

(32:00):
I'm like, oh, hello.
So beautiful.
And that I know is much morecommon with me, but that didn't
come until I actually realizedshe was talking and, and then
decided to be kind.
So it is really beautiful.
How would you explain thatmeditation is the same or
different than mindfulness?
Because I know mindfulness is abig buzzword.

(32:22):
And I'm happy about thatactually, I'm happy there's
wonderful buzzwords, but it alsodoes mean sometimes it loses
some of its meaning when it justgets a buzz.
You say in your book thatmindfulness adds vibrancy to our
lives and the thinking hole doesnot.
So can you explain what you meanby vibrancy and the thinking
hole?

(32:42):
Got it, got it.
Yes.
So mindfulness as a term is atranslation of a Uh, ancient
Pali term that's called the, itcomes from a set of old Buddhist
writings called the SatipatthanaSutra, which is, it's a sutra, a

(33:04):
set of texts that talk aboutinhabiting the body and the mind
fully.
So, meditation can be a wholelot of things, but how we tend
to think about it is like it's apractice, how I teach it anyway,

(33:25):
from this Buddhist lineage, it'sthat a, it's a practice of
returning in, just to the, tothe present moment again and
again in a kind of a formal way.
Like what we talked about.
You bring your attention back,your attention wanders, you come
back and inhabit the presentmoment in this kind of formal

(33:46):
practice.
Mindfulness is an approach toeveryday life as you're living
it by trying to inhabit thatmoment, inhabit what you're
doing as you're doing it.
So that can be drinking a glassof water.
And really trying to be with thesensations of drinking a glass

(34:10):
of water, your hand on theglass, the water as you're
drinking it, feeling it fillyour stomach.
You know, it can be also aconversation you have with
someone where you're fully inyour body and your ears are
listening and you're, you know,tracking them and you're also
watching your own response.
So mindfulness is thatinhabiting of our body as we are

(34:34):
moving through the world.
And that gets a lot morecomplicated, it gets more, but
that's like the very rudimentarydescription, I would say.
John Kabat Zinn, who did a lotof, he sort of popularized the
term mindfulness.
I think he describes it as beingpresent on purpose, non

(34:54):
judgmentally.
Something like that.
Interesting.
So the non judgmentallyobserving what is happening
without jumping really fast tolabel it good or bad or
whatever.
Exactly.
Right.
The best lesson in mindfulness Iever had was chocolate.
I mean, really.
If you eat chocolate fastbecause you're stressed and
you're not paying attention orwhatever, versus when you put a

(35:17):
piece of chocolate that is smallin your mouth and really, really
try to taste it or feel it.
It's an entirely differentexperience.
And I've realized that's thesame with a lot of things.
So in my illness, I'veexperienced a lot of food
sensitivities and sensitivity tosugar or other stuff, which I
think a lot of people have.

(35:38):
And what I have learned is ifI'm going to eat something that
maybe isn't super good for me,but I really want it.
If I have a small piece and Ipay attention to what I am
doing, I don't need more thanthat.
I don't even want more thanthat.
Because I can feel what'shappening in my body, but I also
got the satisfaction.
So it's like, I don't have toshove two cinnamon rolls in my

(36:01):
mouth while I'm having astressful conversation and just
trying to make it go away withthe sweets.
I'm like, why do I want thecinnamon roll?
And if it's like, okay, no I dowant it, but I, let's start,
let's just have a small piece.
And really pay attention.
That's enough, and I feel betterthan if I had pounded two
cinnamon rolls in.
I feel much better, or betterwith one piece of chocolate, not

(36:23):
a whole bar.
Yes, and this goes to that, thatother thing that I, I wanted to
get back to, so I'm glad we'regetting back to, about how do
you make meditation be lesspainful?
Horrible.
Yeah.
Always a good topic.
This is another really amazing,delightful, sensory rich

(36:47):
practice of meditation, which issinking into your senses with
chocolate, with having like acup of tea or coffee and really
tasting it.
Um, noticing like your clothing,like I'm wearing a warm sweater
right now and it's cold outsideand just like really feeling the
warmth that's there.

(37:08):
So, you become, you begin tonotice that your senses are like
this kind of wonderland ofpowerful ways to be in the
present moment.
So it doesn't have to be thisaustere, you know, monk like
thing of like, get rid of allthe pleasure and just stay with
your breath.
You can be meditating, you canbe fully present in your senses.

(37:33):
The tricky part.
is that sometimes when we payattention to the senses or to
the breath or to anything in thepresent moment, I think you
mentioned this, like sometimesthere is also pain there.
Either physical pain oremotional pain.
And you can't kind of turn oneoff.
It would be nice if we couldjust feel the good stuff but not

(37:55):
the bad stuff.
What we can do is kind of openup to all of it and hold all of
it and stop resisting either thepain or the pleasure.
And when we stop that resistanceand just relax, like my
shoulders right now are justlike dropping when I say that,

(38:16):
then it's, it's like life justopens up way bigger.
Yeah, because we've been likeunconsciously screening out the
bad stuff and then alsoscreening out the good stuff.
Yeah, that leads right into twothings I really want to talk
about.
So one, I loved your section onmindfulness and tech.

(38:38):
And I'm wondering if we cantouch on that a bit because I
think the two things that struckme the most were one, um,
Mindfully paying attention towhen you reach for your phone.
If you're trying to get out ofan uncomfortable emotion,
because though it can helpdistract us from the
uncomfortable emotion, you alsotalk about how it can take away

(39:02):
the highs too.
Like if we aren't willing tofill the lows, we aren't going
to be able to fill as much ofthe highs.
Can you explain more about thatand how we can tune in?
How we can tune into ourtechnology, but in a mindful
way, and what the purpose ofthat would even be, or the
effect.
It is so hard, personally.

(39:25):
This is like the edge ofpractice for me, because
billions of dollars are spent totry to effectively hook into our
attention.
Get us kind of addicted andhooked.
And it's like, it's truly like avery powerful drug.

(39:51):
And it's not accidental.
Like, they spent billions ontons of research to figure out
how to do this.
So, of course, that's how we,most of us are with our
technology and social media.
So the first thing is justrealize it's not your fault,
you're not doing anything wrong,this is how the system is
operating.
So it takes a lot ofintentionality and

(40:15):
thoughtfulness and will in orderto claim your life back.
Because for me, I just notice,like, I don't know if you have
this on your phone, but on myphone it tells you, like, I know
five hours of your day werespent on technology today.
I'm really glad for that.
I don't have it on my phone, butI wish it was like prominent on

(40:36):
all of my teenager's phones.
It's nauseating.
It's a horrible feeling becauseyou're like, how much of that
brought me joy, brought mefeelings of connection, brought
me important news that I wantedto hear and some of it does.
It's not like it's allnothingness, you know, like some

(40:57):
of it does do those things, butso much of it feels directly
like a waste of time or like aplace I don't want to be
spending my precious life.
Right.
So, um, The best that I have tooffer is to really try and

(41:18):
become, kind of like you saidwith the cinnamon rolls, but
with the phone and technology.
If you go in being like, I'mgoing to try here, I'm going to
set a timer for how long I amgoing to be on this, or, you
know, I'm going to somehow takeit off your home screen or
delete it from your phone sothat you have to log in to get

(41:39):
there.
Put in any safeguards you have,because we're not, we are all
alcoholics at the bar, you know,like, there is not a force of
will that most of us have that'sstrong enough to resist this.
So you have to really try.
And believe in it enough to belike, I need to build a life

(42:01):
that's outside of my phone.
And, and really implement it.
And then, when you partake, thesame way of a cinnamon roll, or
the same way of like, analcoholic drink, if you're not
an actual alcoholic.
And, You know, you just have toreally be aware as much as you
can.
Build awareness of why you'rereaching for it.

(42:22):
What's underneath?
What do you really want?
When you get underneath justthat addictive energy, like,
maybe you want connection withsomebody.
Maybe you're lonely.
Or maybe you want, you know,something bright and beautiful
to like stimulate your senses.
And so, just trying to kind ofget at the real deeper thing you
want and then be like, oh,that's a beautiful thing to

(42:44):
want.
Can I get this somewhere else?
That's not gonna suck me dry inthe end.
Beautiful.
Have you listened to the bookStolen Focus or heard of it?
I'm trying to remember the nameof it.
I have heard of it.
I have not read it, but I'veheard of it.
We started listening to it as afamily when we were driving one
time and I expected and receivedmoans of discontent at first,

(43:08):
but then it was so helpful thatI have three teenagers and they,
two of them at least, startedlistening really intently and
it's now on our kind of familyreading list that, that of, of
books that we want everyone tocome down.
He talks about That very thing.
So if anyone's wanting follow upattention, you also talk about

(43:31):
how it really gets to ourcomparing mind.
And I loved a story that youtold.
Well, first you, just to quoteyou, you said, to notice the
comparing mind, something thathelped you was as you started to
feel that sort of scrolling ickthat happens when we're looking
at other people's pretty, prettyfiltered lives.

(43:52):
Yes.
You say you'd started tellingyourself, what if I am okay and
enough right now?
And what if the only standard Ihave to live up to is my
deepest, most authentic self?
I thought that was so beautiful.
A practice that I have beendoing for the last few years
that really started to help wasI have a mentor named Ernest

(44:14):
Morrow.
I don't know if you've everheard of him, but he teaches
very similar Zen and Buddhistteachings as you do.
And the phrase is, my name isBecca.
And life is making me happen.
And that's what I return tomultiple times a day when I can
feel that I'm trying to be likesomeone else.
Or I can feel that I have to dobetter in order to be loved or

(44:35):
that I feel like I need to bemore dot dot dot.
I return to, my name is Becca.
Life is making me happen.
This, a lot of the wonderfulthings that happen are not
because I went out and made themhappen anyway.
Be right here.
And I, I loved you pointed thatout with, with different words,
but the same effect.

(44:55):
Like, what if I am my mostauthentic self, then what
happens?
I thought that was so beautiful.
I wonder Oh, thank you.
I love that line.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I wonder, Oh, well, I guess Iwas going to ask you to explain
more, but I guess just readingthe sentence you said explains a
lot that so much of ourcomparing to others is what can

(45:18):
take us down on tech.
It's the time wasted.
Where it turns into watchingother people live their life
instead of living our own.
And then comparing.
You tell a story, and forgiveme, I might not say this
correctly, but it was about arabbi named Zusha.
Yeah, which is my son's nameactually.
That's so cool! I'm wondering ifyou would share what he said

(45:41):
about when he was nearing theend of his life.
If you remember the story.
Of course, yeah.
It's one of my favorites.
So he's nearing the end of hislife, and he's on his deathbed,
and he's crying, and his, hisstudents say, why are you
crying?
Like, you're so pious, like,you've definitely got a place in
the world to come, and you'vedone so much good in your life,

(46:03):
and he says, I'm crying because,you know, when I die, I think
the Divine One, God, is notgonna ask me, why weren't you
more like Abraham, you know,this towering figure?
Why weren't you more like Moses,this other, you know, historic

(46:24):
prophet?
God's gonna ask me, why weren'tyou more like Zusha?
Which was his own name.
And so I love that idea of like,how could we be the most Yeah.
L or the most Becca.
Mm-Hmm that we can be likenobody else, no matter how great
they are.
Like that's not our charge.

(46:46):
Our charge is to be the mostourselves.
That deep, deep authenticity.
Oh, I know life happens as ithappens, but don't you sometimes
wish you could go back to likeyour early middle school self
and insert that in as an option.
Save 30 years of suffering.

(47:08):
More like ourselves.
I really would love to talkabout what you say about
specific emotions because Ithink your take on it was so
beautiful.
So, if we can touch on a bit ofhow you come to emotions, then
I'll ask you specifically aboutsome of them.

(47:29):
Individually.
So, you talk about a processcalled RAIN, which is an acronym
that I know, was it Tara Brock?
Is that who you heard?
Yes.
She's been the one that's mostkind of spread this teaching
around.
It was originally developed byanother teacher named Michelle
McDonald.
Oh, okay.
I liked how you talk about itbecause I, for a long time,

(47:51):
definitely repressed certainemotions and they were ones that
felt scary to me to either feel.
Just because they were big and Ididn't know what to do with them
to make them go away.
Or, that they were big and Ithought they would make me do
something.
Like, I was very I was veryuncomfortable with being afraid
that came from martial arts.

(48:13):
I didn't want to appear weak andI was very uncomfortable with
feeling anger of any sort causeI thought that made you do
stupid painful things to people.
So cracking me open to therealization that I actually was
feeling those things a, I, Ihadn't fully repressed them.
They were just running me fromthe inside without me knowing

(48:34):
rip.
I love how you taught how torecognize that we are filling
them.
And then, not to tumble in them.
I had to learn that I was safeto feel anger without turning
into a rage monster before I wasable to let myself feel the
anger and listen more deeply tothe messages.
So, the RAIN acronym, I know thefirst was RECOGNIZE, I thought

(48:58):
it was It's great, the story youshared about one of your
teachers admitting that beforehe knew how to feel emotions, he
felt every sensation as hunger.
Yes.
And I know, I know what that, Iknow what that feels like.
I would end up in the pantry andnot know that I was eating yet
when I had already startedeating and not even know why I
was eating.

(49:18):
I wasn't hungry.
And it turns out I hit thepantry when I'm stressed or when
I need something sweet.
So if I'm lonely or I hit itbecause I was.
upset or angry and was trying tolike eat my words back down my
throat.
So when you, when you firstsaid, well, first recognize
you're angry, that might soundridiculous to some people, but I
was an expert at suppressingfrom my conscious mind that I

(49:40):
was angry.
So can you talk more about thatacronym and, you know, starting
with the R?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think you, you nailed it.
It's that most of the time whenwe feel, Even the very inkling,
the very beginning of a strongor powerful emotion, it, we

(50:00):
either act out on it, likeimmediately, like let's say the
emotion is desire, like I reallywant something, then we
immediately try and go get it,you know, to try and in a sense
get rid of it, get rid of thefeeling.
Or, we, Smoosh it down deep.
And we're like, nope, that's notallowed.

(50:22):
But we are very bad at smooshingthings down and getting rid of
them.
So it comes bubbling up.
Either it comes up and yellingat someone or it comes up in
like this kind of never endingprocess of like numbing
ourselves so that we don't keepfeeling it.
So it's a very non functioningsystem.

(50:43):
But we all do it with theemotions that are unpleasant, or
that we've just been taught manytimes, like, that is not okay to
feel.
And that varies depending on theidentity of the person, who your
parents were, and what messagesyou got.
But, but we all have differentemotions that are like, that
we've been taught or picked upthat we're not okay to feel.

(51:07):
So yes, the step one is to belike, Feeling something.
Sometimes I'll be like threesteps down the road doing
something like erratic or crazyor, you know, just like making
some kind of mistake until I'mlike, wait a minute, I'm sad.
Or like I'm angry or I'manxious.

(51:29):
It's just kind of like a reverseengineering back to the feeling.
That's the step one.
I've learned that's incrediblyhelpful.
in limiting my regret or guiltwhen I'm talking to my children.
Because the uncomfortable truthis that as a parent, and I
certainly know I was not immuneto it, if something else is

(51:51):
happening in adulting land, withrelationships or jobs or
whatever, and you start to feelpowerless, sometimes the
tendency is to try and get powersomewhere.
And so, I learned if I was goingup to check on their rooms, but
I already knew I was going to beupset about their rooms before I
even saw the rooms.
When I learned this work, Ifinally, my, I, and I, I do it

(52:14):
by listening to my body.
If my body feels tense, and mybody feels like it's gearing up,
like putting on armor,gratefully, I have to climb the
stairs to get to some of theirrooms, and I will stop on the
stairs and think, What is reallyhappening here?
Like, what am I feeling?
And if what I am feeling is adeep sadness, or an anger about

(52:36):
something else, I literallydon't let myself go over to
their rooms until I am the oneback in front.
And that, that happens when Ihave actually seen what's
happened, when I've held itdeeply, when I've let myself
feel and recognize it as if I amholding a little girl that is
feeling that.
And I think without the bodyawareness, I would be kind of

(53:00):
sunk because my body knowsbefore my brain will, my brain
would much rather just yellabout a room.
But my body knows that is notthe issue.
Yeah, my teacher, one of myteachers, Tia Strozer, used to
say that, like, the mind ishorrible at working with
emotions.
Like, it's very good at solvingmath problems.

(53:22):
Or, you know, Doing some kind ofanalytics.
It is abysmally bad at workingwith emotions, and so we're
giving it, most of us, this jobthat it's bad at.
All it wants to do is just belike, like, circular thoughts,
or like, get rid of this, youknow?
But the body, it knows emotions.

(53:42):
That's the body's language.
It can metabolize emotions andwork with them.
And so the task is exactly whatyou're saying, to be like, Oh,
wait a minute.
I'm noticing something in mybody being ding, ding, ding.
I have an emotion.
Yeah, the emotion is here.
Even if you can't exactly namewhat the emotion is, I have a

(54:04):
lot of clients that You know,especially if they've been very
separated from their body for along time, out of trauma, or
just certain kind of educations,then they can't always name what
it is they're feeling.
But they know they're feelingsomething.
And so just to say like, Okay,something's happening.

(54:24):
There's something happeningthat's causing some discomfort.
And like, that recognizing canbe just naming that for
yourself.
I like that, that take on itthat you don't have to know.
So another sister of mine askedme a question months ago because
I, I was very disconnected frommy body and during my period of

(54:46):
laying there staring at theceiling, ended up becoming very
in tune with my body.
But I, I sink into my body toask myself what is really
happening right now?
But she pointed out when I askedthat question, like I know I
feel tension or I know, I knowthings are stuck in my body, but
I don't know what they are.
She said how, I mean that, toher felt a little powerless

(55:10):
because she's like, How do youtune in with your body?
I'm like, I don't know, I askand then I, it just comes up.
I don't know how it works forother people.
So if, so you're saying if, ifyou are unsure as you begin, or
if the answers don't comeeasily, just saying you're
feeling something in your bodyand there is an emotion at play
in this space can be enough.

(55:30):
Yes.
That's the R.
But then we have the pathwaywith the rest of the acronyms.
Let's go for the acronym.
What's A?
Okay.
So begin by saying something'shappening or anger is here.
You know, whatever, whicheverone.
And I like to say anger orsadness or something is here

(55:51):
rather than I am angry.
Because again, it builds alittle bit of space.
Because if something is here, itcould mean something else is
here, too.
It could mean that thing isgoing to not be here in a few
minutes.
It just kind of de identifies uswith the feeling where we
otherwise say, I'm angry.
I think that's one of the mostpowerful things I've learned,

(56:11):
honestly.
De identify.
It's crazy that in English we dosay, I am.
I mean, I am is such a powerfulphrase, and I am angry is like,
oh, well.
Becca left, and now there's justMonster.
Exactly, which it can feelsometimes.
Yeah, that's been one of my mosthelpful things, with things like

(56:32):
failure.
And I, I, I call it, like, oh,hello, failure.
Hello, fear.
Right.
It helps.
Okay, so recognizing that.
Right.
It's here.
And it's here.
It's hanging out here.
And then is my favorite.
Um, not to play favorites, but Ilove this part of the acronym,

(56:52):
which is the A, which is standsfor allow.
That is the action of softeningthe resistance to the feeling.
So that might mean physically inthe body, like if you're all
clenched up around the emotion,which we do naturally, to just
like let those shoulders drop orsoften the jaw.

(57:16):
And it might also just mean likeon a emotional level, on an
interior level, can you bring asense of laying down the weapons
against this feeling?
Because guess what?
It's here.
It's, it's, it doesn't change,it just adds additional
suffering to the pain when weresist it, or when we fight it.

(57:41):
So that's the A, just releasingthat extra fight.
The I stands for investigate,and that's a very soft, gentle,
that's what you, sounds like youwere doing when you were in your
bed.
Asking the question, like, wheredo I feel this in the body?
Where exactly do I feel this?

(58:03):
What do I feel?
Is it like a pulling?
Is it a movement?
Does it have a color associatedwith it?
Is it a weight?
Is it a lightness?
You know, and it's just kind oflike a, like you're kind of on a
little investigative journey,but not analytical
investigation.
We're talking about a body basedinvestigation to just find out a

(58:27):
little bit more about thisfeeling that we're having.
A good question for the eye thatI like to use is, okay, so I'm
feeling angry, or I'm feelinglike, blah, you know, whatever
it is that you're feeling.
And then the question is, okay,A, let's allow it.
It's happening.
Let's soften the resistance.
And then the I is, how do Iknow?

(58:49):
How do I know I'm feeling thisway?
How do I know I'm feelinganxious or blah?
Like, what are the bottomsignals that are sending
something to my brain telling meI'm feeling this way?
We're trying to get, reverseengineer the feeling so that we
can get to its place in thebody.
And the N, there's two differentkinds of N.

(59:13):
So, the original N was nonidentification.
So that's exactly what we'retalking about when we say anger
is here.
It's just the releasing thisidea that this is me.
It's just that softening aroundit.
But, Tara Brock teaches thatwhen she taught that as the N,

(59:34):
that non identification, that itkind of sometimes turns into a
little bit of a pushing away.
Mm hmm.
Like, it's not me, and also, andit's not me, it's not me, like,
no thanks.
Yeah.
And it's kind of like a verysubtle, like, repression.
Right.
So she also teaches a differentN, which is nourish.

(59:55):
Mm hmm.
Which is basically asking thequestion, when I feel this way,
what can I do?
What can I do for myself?
So, it's taking as a given,we're feeling something right
now, but it's asking almost likea self care question.
Like, oh, maybe it would be niceto just put my hand on my heart.
Or it would be nice to get adrink of water or to move my

(01:00:16):
body.
And it's just that, like, extraloving thing for when we're
feeling a way just to take careof ourselves.
You know, I think one of thethings that encouraged me to
keep trying.
And still encourages me to keeptrying in the journey of being,
of allowing my emotions, whichis not always uncomfortable or

(01:00:38):
sitting to meditate, which isnot always comfortable.
It is being around people whohave done some of that work and
being present with them when Iam having real things happen.
When there's cause for sinceresadness.
Or sincere fear, or when there'scause for that, and that what I

(01:01:00):
am is okay with them.
Because they've done their work.
I can feel the presence when I'min someone that does that.
And it also encourages me to dothat within myself so I can be
that person for other people,like my children or my friends.
Because that nourishing stage, Ithink that's the whole point.

(01:01:22):
Is that when we have askedsomething and we see, like I
did, that middle school girlthat is scared.
Or if we see someone else thatis hurt, you know, in our mind
or start to understand, Oh, thisis why I am sad.
I mean, I have a little girl,the age of when mine appeared.

(01:01:43):
And as a person who loves her,if she was sad about something
or.
Afraid of something.
I am not going to go like, stopit, stop, stop talking, stop
doing that.
You shouldn't feel that way.
You shouldn't talk that way.
You shouldn't even be that way.
Like, and that's what I wasdoing with my own emotions.
And when I realized recognizingthem and allowing them was

(01:02:06):
actually leading to nourishingthem.
I think that's how we learn tonourish ourselves.
That nourishing point has beenthe whole point.
That's when it actually beginsto get better, right?
I was shoving emotions awaybecause I didn't know how to
handle them or what to do withthem.
And this teaching, I think youencapsulate so beautifully is,
this is what, this is what we dowith them.

(01:02:28):
As we ultimately get to thatplace where they don't have to
scream as loudly at us becausewe will pay attention when they
talk.
And it will turn into aExperience with a lot more love
than brutality.
I mean, I don't want to be inthe house with someone who is
talking to my little girl likethat.
Mama bear would come out, but Iwas talking to myself like that

(01:02:48):
all the time.
And recognizing that we cannourish ourselves better than
anyone else could anyway,because we're ultimately looking
for our own love and our ownworth.
I think, oh, this, this is thepoint, is learning what, what to
do with them.
Instead of just yelling aboutthem or making them go away.

(01:03:09):
Beautiful.
And that's, that's sort of theanswer to your sister.
You know, that question of like,well, okay, I see it now.
What?
This is the what?
Like this is the path of healingright there.
Beautiful.
I know we're nearing the end,but I was wondering if you could
give us some insights on a fewspecific emotions.

(01:03:29):
So you talk about fear.
And desire being connected.
So, in the book, people can lookfor more information, but you
talk about the differencebetween fear and anxiety.
So fear would be a survivalbased, actual useful tool.
I've learned I was afraid to beafraid.
Because I thought it would lockme up.

(01:03:50):
But I've learned as I've goneinto my fear, my fear is always
right.
If I'm afraid of something,there is a reason.
Anxiety, on the other hand, yousay, Is basically what we do to
try and assert a little controlover something that we don't
have control over, but it's afalse sense of control.

(01:04:10):
Right.
So I love you talk about that.
I point readers to thatdirection because it was
beautiful.
But what I'm hoping you can talkabout is the link between fear
and desire.
I have never heard it taught theway you do, and I love it.
So what is the link between fearand desire?
I'm so glad you like it becausethis is the topic of my next

(01:04:32):
book that I'm working on rightnow.
So, that's a good sign.
I first kind of became aware ofthis from a book by a Buddhist
psychologist, psychiatrist namedMark Epstein.
And he wrote, very casually,like just almost like a
throwaway line, this one linethat said, the opposite of Fear

(01:04:56):
is not calmness or the oppositeof anxiety is not calmness, it's
desire and had to kind of likeparse that through and work that
through for a long time andwhere, how I understand it and
something that it's been veryexciting for me.
Is this the.

(01:05:19):
that when we look, when we feelanxious, we're looking towards
an uncertain future.
And like you said, tried, tryingto kind of kind of control it.
And by trying to control it,we're trying to kind of make up
as many scenarios as we can oflike horrible things that might
happen.
The mind just like spins usthese horrible stories.

(01:05:40):
And then we are living inside ofthose horrible stories.
As if they're going to come truein a sense of being like, Okay,
well then I won't be surprisedby it.
Okay, well then I have to likeplan for it so that it doesn't
come up and surprise me.
And that's how we're approachingthe uncertain future.
Desire is underneath everysingle anxiety.

(01:06:06):
Every time you look around yourlife for an anxiety and you go
underneath it, there is anattendant desire.
For instance Let's say you areanxious about like your child
and like, are they doing okay?
Are they suffer?
Are they gonna suffer?
Beautiful?
An anxiety to have, you know,because it's connected, because

(01:06:26):
underneath it is a desire foryour child to be well, yeah.
Like a, a deep desire for yourchild to be.
Well, if you're anxious about a,a job interview, like really
worried about it.
Okay?
What you really want is.
It's this, either the jobinterview to go well and you to
get the job or you just want tolike do your best and feel your

(01:06:51):
best.
So if we then look underneath ateach one and we flesh out what
that desire is and we shift intothe desire rather than the
anxiety, we have a totallydifferent experience.
And interestingly, it's a circleto make a big circle.

(01:07:11):
My aunt Jolie, who is ourconnection, is one of the main
people that taught me thisconnection because it was around
an election and I really, reallywanted someone to win and the
other person not to win and Itold her like, I'm, I'm like
really want this person to winbut like I'm trying to keep my
hopes, not get my hopes up, I'mtrying to keep my hopes low and

(01:07:35):
like not get, not get tooexcited or not get too hopeful.
And she was like Has that everin your life worked to not get
your hopes up?
Just curious.
And I was like, no, I guess itnever does.
I always still end up getting myhopes up.
I feel anxious the whole timeI'm waiting until I know what

(01:07:55):
the answer is, if I get thething I want.
And then, if I don't get thething I want, I'm always
disappointed, no matter how longI tried to not get my hopes up.
And the truth is, that wholeinterim time, I was like a
wreck.
I was constricted and anxious,because that's the feeling that
anxiety brings.
What my Aunt Jolie taught me is,she's like, What if you could

(01:08:17):
actually enjoy the time betweenwhat you know what's going to
happen and what you want to havehappen, And, bye.
Imagining what would it feellike if that thing happened.
So in the case of the election,like, what would I, what would
it feel like if this person whoI wanted to win would win?
It would feel like such arelief.

(01:08:39):
It would feel so hopeful, likethings could possibly change in
the world.
It would feel like safety.
And so, like, in the interimtime, I could actually live in
some of that feeling rather thanliving in the constriction and
the fear.
And so I tried it, and it is sobeautiful and powerful to live

(01:09:03):
in the desire for the thingversus the anxiety and the fear.
There definitely is an attendantanxiety and fear, even when you
practice living with a desire,which says, like, But what if
you don't get it?
But what if you're surprised?
But what if this bad thinghappens and you weren't
prepared?
What if it's worse if you havehoped for it and then it doesn't
happen?
Is the question coming from whenI have talked about this.

(01:09:24):
This, this teaching with quite afew people because I walk around
with your book.
It's in my purse.
It's all over.
So I talked about it and that isthe concern for most people is,
but if I let my desire get upand then it drops, yeah, what
then?
I think that's right.
That will always be the thingthat arises when we try and feel

(01:09:45):
into the desire and we have tojust kind of look towards that
voice that's trying to protectus and say, Again, you can't
protect.
You're trying, but it's notgoing to work.
At least in my experience, thetrying to protect just like
makes us live in the miserylonger.

(01:10:07):
So we have to just accept thatfear is going to be a part of
moving into the desire.
We're never going to get fullyrid of it.
It's going to be a part of thejourney, but you have to speak
to that part of yourself that'safraid and say, we're going to
try this other thing.
You know, and you don't, you cancome, you can come sit on my
lap, you can be a part of this,but we're going to try and like

(01:10:30):
expand into the thing that Ireally want because that's where
there's like energy and growthand expansion and clarity, even
if you don't end up getting itin the end, you've at least felt
into some of that power.
I think this gets touched on ina lot of different philosophies.
So, it's not a crazy teaching atall.

(01:10:52):
I think it's a beautifully saidteaching that many other
philosophies are, are, arepointing at.
What I had to do was just tryit.
You talk about in your book,about being afraid in college
that you would never find love,or that someone that really saw
you for you.
And that feeling of clinginessand of fear of disappointed

(01:11:13):
hopes, or You know, all the waysthat it couldn't work out.
And I have definitely felt thatfor, for love or for other
items.
You talk about the differencethat it was when you realized
what you actually were desiringwas love.
I love your, your story.
You talk about the waves came inand as each wave came in, you
talked about to yourself whatyou actually desired.

(01:11:37):
So I tried it in my life withmany different things.
I noticed when fear came up.
The fear of failure, likefailing my kids in certain
things or whatever.
I would find that seed of desirethat was the opposite of the
fear, and let it grow in me whatI wanted.
And the interesting thing Ifound was It, A, was so much

(01:11:59):
more vibrant.
It didn't fill Pollyanna like,Oh, I'm just not going to think
about the fear.
I'm going to only think aboutwhat I want to happen, right?
And sometimes in likemanifestation circles or
abundance circles, I feel likethere is a lot of spiritual
bypassing and only focusing onwhat you want, but not being
attuned to the other realitypresent here in, in this way, I

(01:12:21):
felt like I could feel the fear,acknowledge that it was there
and also choose.
To see what I really wanted andthe interesting thing was that
helped me know myself moreanyway.
Like, who am I really?
Which is part of the wholepractice and helped me be myself
more because I can show up morepresent in the world for however

(01:12:41):
long it takes until I get ordon't get that thing and as that
I desire.
Way more as myself when I'macting as myself with what I
desire and what I want.
So I figure whether I get thething or whether I do not.
I at least have clocked a lotmore time in the Becca seat.
And the longer we're in the seatof ourselves, with the fear, and

(01:13:04):
with the desire, I feel likethat leads us more to the whole
point anyway.
It's like the in living colorpractice of meditation, I think.
Yes, so beautifully said.
That's right.
I think that's my, that's myexperience too.
And even It almost becomesirrelevant to some degree.
That's where I separate from themanifestors, is like, I don't

(01:13:28):
know, maybe it helps you get thething you want, maybe not, but
it's doing a different job, too.
Which is like, yes, thatreturning to the self, and
clarifying, and also when youfeel, when you bring into your
body, what would it feel like ifyou got it, the thing that you
wanted so badly, it actuallygives you a taste of that

(01:13:48):
feeling.
Like, oh, I, I really want mychildren to be, to be safe, to
be well.
What is that, what is thatdesire?
I guess I just really love mychildren.
And it kind of gives, itaccesses that love in such a big
way.
Or like, I really want to beseen or be loved.

(01:14:09):
And then when you really open upto it, what would it feel like
to be loved?
It's, you feel the love.
Yeah.
Like, in that moment.
It's pretty cool.
Yeah.
Next emotion I'm hoping to talkabout is anger, because I love
how you talk about it too.
I really thought anger should berepressed, which we already
talked about.

(01:14:30):
You quoted Thich Nhat Hanh whenhe said, Recognizing our anger
is crucial for our well being.
Now, saying something is crucialfor our well being from a master
like that made me pay attention.
But you talk about Anger in adifferent way.
Why is it crucial and what do wedo with it when it appears?

(01:14:56):
Yeah.
My favorite teaching on anger iscame from a, a friend of mine
who very deep teacher in the Zenworld where she, her name is
Laura O'Loughlin.
And she said, every time I findmyself feeling angry, I, I say
like, don't just get angry.

(01:15:17):
Draw a boundary.
Because, I'll say, a largepercentage of the time that we
feel angry, it's our body's wayof saying something isn't right.
So that might be you let aboundary slip, or you took on
more than you felt comfortablewith.
Or it could be you're angrybecause of bad things that are

(01:15:38):
actually happening, and the bodysays, no, no, like, not good,
not right, I am angry, this isnot right.
And that kind of anger,sometimes even rage, is
appropriate.
It's a natural thing to happenwhen that, you know, when things
are wrong, or things feel likethey've overdone.

(01:15:58):
Slipped past a boundary.
And so there's a movement we canmake in there that says like,
okay, is what's underneath thisanger.
Sometimes it's hurt.
Sometimes it's this sense oflike, I let, I went too far from
myself.
I let a boundary slip.
Um, sometimes it's fear.
Like I don't want something badto happen.

(01:16:19):
And so anger is so helpful tolike bring ourselves to a
different, to a truth.
And.
It gives us this igniting energyto do real important things in
the world.
The challenge is to not just actout of the anger, which is a,

(01:16:40):
more a challenge to some peoplethan other people.
Like, some, some of us, like, I,like you, have been taught to
repress it.
So, for us, it's less of like a,maybe, maybe, less of like a
danger that we're going to,like, lash out and, hurt people,
except when we repress it,repress it, repress it, that
lashing out will still happen.

(01:17:01):
Yes, then there's going to be atalking to, that's what I've
learned.
Right, right.
It might not be my, you know,most admirable self doing the
talking.
Exactly, exactly.
And some people who are a littlemore hot headed, you know, or
have been socialized this way,it immediately, the second they
feel it, oof, they've got toact.
And so it just The mindfulnesspractice of working with anger

(01:17:25):
is to just kind of slow thatdown, to really feel the feeling
and to look at what's underneathit, to air what's underneath it,
and let that inform what thenext steps are.
And my favorite, speaking ofparenting stuff, like my
favorite song that I sing tomyself, because I've just had to

(01:17:45):
teach my kids this, is fromDaniel Tiger, where he's like,
It's okay to feel angry.
But it's not okay to hurtsomeone.
I remember watching thatepisode.
It was before So powerful.
It was one of my introductionsinto anger, actually.
Yes, it's so beautiful andpowerful.

(01:18:06):
And it's like, okay, if it'sreally okay to feel anger, it
really is.
But it's never okay to hurtsomeone.
When you talked about impatiencerelated with anger, it's that we
Get uncomfortable with patiencebecause we feel like it's doing
nothing.
Or, what did you say?
It was equated with, like,repression and delay.

(01:18:29):
So, some, I think I thoughtbeing patient around anger was
me further repressing my angerand was part of a problem.
But when you talk in your bookabout the opposite, impatience,
when we feel angry and we getimpatient with the result, like
your example, I think, issitting on a subway.

(01:18:51):
It's like a way we feel like weget an illusion of control
because we're doing somethingabout it, but almost always the
consequences of impatience stackon to the original problem.
They rarely actually solveanything.
So, for another deeper read init, I would say in your book
what you talk about withpatience and impatience related
to anger, that has helped me somuch.

(01:19:14):
Oh, I'm so glad.
Two more, two more questions ifthat's okay.
So one, the other line thatreally struck me that I had to
really spend some time with wasyou say true forgiveness is
actually the opposite offorgetting.
And while we're talking aboutanger, I want to address that
because I mean, I was raised andmany people were raised with the

(01:19:34):
phrase forgive and forget.
And some things that reallyhappen.
That where there has been aninjustice or something has hurt
and it was purposeful.
I think I didn't want to forgetbecause I thought that would
mean saying that thing was okayor letting them off the hook.

(01:19:54):
And learning what forgivenesseven is seemed like a very vague
idea to me because it seemedlike I was giving away the
responsibility or the witnessthat some problem had occurred.
You address that, but you talkabout how forgiveness.
Is not just forgetting or doingnothing about it.
And I love how you talk aboutit.

(01:20:16):
Can you tell us why they'reopposites?
Yeah.
Or what we can do to whyforgiveness would be something
helpful to us instead of anacquiescence of power.
Yes.
So forgiveness is notforgetting, like you mentioned,
and it's not reconciling.

(01:20:36):
Sometimes the person should notbe in your life.
You know, like it's not like inany way equating to say that,
that this is like a, a valuableperson to have, sometimes, but
sometimes not.
Or, it's also not for theforgiven person.

(01:20:57):
Forgiveness in the model that Iwrite about and, and teach about
is for the forgiver.
Because it actually is verypainful.
to hold on to pain for a longperiod of time.
It actually harms us.
The phrase that they use oftenis like drinking poison and

(01:21:20):
expecting the other person todie.
Yeah.
So we're drinking the poison.
We're carrying around thishorrible feeling that you know,
sits on us.
We're replaying the pain againand again and again.
You know, feeding the, the, thewood into the fire because we
feel like we must keep it alivebecause we wanna be clear, like

(01:21:44):
this thing shouldn't havehappened and it causes
suffering.
But it's like, it, it feelslike, well, if I forget it, if I
let it go, that's even worse.
So the move is to say, I am not.
Letting this go in a sense of Iam not forgetting that it ever

(01:22:06):
happened.
It's more saying radicallyCompletely.
I Believe that it happened.
It was horrible that ithappened.
I you know that never ever evershould have happened and
validating that like from thebottom of your Soul, no matter,

(01:22:27):
you know, for a long time.
This might take a long time andforgiveness is not on anybody
else's timeline.
This is just a process.
If it feels like it's causingyou more pain to keep sitting
with it than it is to practicethis other way.
So when you feel that way, whenyou're ready, every time that

(01:22:49):
painful thing comes up, To turntowards it immediately with so
much love and so much validationto be like, I know this horrible
thing really happened, it reallyhappened, I know.
And to just shower it with thatkind of validation.
And then, little by little, it'salmost like the forgiveness
happens on its own.

(01:23:10):
Because you don't have to keepre energizing it and re
energizing it.
And it doesn't matter what theother person does or says.
Sometimes the right move mightbe to confront them.
Sometimes you can't confrontthem because they already died
or they're not in the pictureanymore.
And sometimes you might, like,need to seek additional

(01:23:32):
resources or help.
But all of that is extraneous tothis inner process of
forgiveness that is It'sessentially for your own
healing, not for the otherperson.
I love that.
And turning into it immediately,I love how you say that because
truthfully those parts of methat didn't want to forgive, and

(01:23:53):
this can be big traumas or thiscan be, you know, repetitive
things that have come up in arelationship or at work or
whatever that I felt I had tohold onto in order to represent
myself well.
When you talk about.
Immediately going to them, Iagain think about how I would
hold my daughter if I knew thatthing had happened to her.

(01:24:17):
And I wouldn't be like, Iactually don't want to talk
about that right now.
Actually, just be mad at him.
Let's not talk about you at all.
Like, I'm not a parent thatwould just plunge right onto the
playground to beat somebody upbefore I looked at my daughter.
You know, like I would hold herand I would let her cry.
And I think the more that wetreat our hurts with that love,

(01:24:43):
the less volume they need, andthe more we can see them.
And in that process It'softentimes my experiences that
like, like, you know, on a smalllevel scale, like with an ex
boyfriend that was not kind tome.
And I was just raging againsthim for so long in my mind.

(01:25:04):
And when I tried to do thispractice again and again, and
I'm like, okay, yeah, you'reright.
It was terrible.
You're right.
It was horrible.
And then at some point I'm like,I think what I'm really afraid
of is that, like, Almost likethe harder thing to forgive was
why did I stay in it then?
Yes, always.
Why was, why did I let myself dothat?
And when that part that was likejust raging at him felt really

(01:25:28):
safe and seen, then that otherlittle voice came up like, Hmm,
I guess that's what I'm reallyashamed of or like angry about.
And then I'm like, okay.
You, you, you were in that,like, that's the best you could
do at the time.
You wanted some very valuablethings that you thought he could
bring you.

(01:25:49):
And that's what, that's whathappened to your, that part is
also forgiven.
And you know, then that becamelike the, the source of the
work, was to work with that partof forgiving yourself.
It's always the most tender andhas like 10 guards in front of
it.
Exactly.
Exactly.

(01:26:09):
So the practice of sinkingdeeper in and going at our own
pace is beautiful.
I wanted to talk about your,your section about mindfulness
and relationships, but I realizewe are out of time.
So I would say, so your wholesection on mindfulness and
relationships, I thought wasBeautiful.
And just to summarize a bit ofwhy I would point readers to

(01:26:31):
your book, you talk abouthandling sexual desire in such a
cool way.
I think a big part of me stillthought if you're a meditator,
you're just not supposed to everthink about sex or have any kind
of desire.
Like you've transcended that.
And you say the opposite, buttalk about that road in between
feeling no desire or feeling adesire that is immediately acted

(01:26:54):
on to satiate and the power thatis, In the middle between the
two, which I love.
You also talk about howmindfulness culminates to help
us in relationships.
And the reason I just wanted topoint out my gratitude you talk
about that is because prettymuch everything you said in that
whole section is something I,you know, I wish I could go back

(01:27:15):
and explain to my 21 year oldself.
It wouldn't have mattered.
I realize life is on acontinuum.
I learn at the pace that I do,but I got married at 21 with the
view of happily ever after, andthis was all going to be
fantastic, as was my husband,and we have spoken multiple
times about how much we arerealizing that what we were not

(01:27:37):
giving to ourselves, or what wethought we were deficient in
ourselves, we were trying toPull out of the other person by
whatever means we needed to.
You talk about the deeperquestion in a mindful
relationship is, do we reallylike ourselves?
Or do we believe that we areworthy of love and belonging?

(01:27:59):
And if we have not yet done thatwork with ourselves, we will try
to look at the other person forthat answer through any
investigative means that we canand through, and it can change
how.
We handle sex, it can change howwe handle conversations, it can
change all kinds of things.
The flip side is, when we beginto learn to untangle our own

(01:28:23):
selves and not make that anybodyelse's job, there is a vibrancy
in relationship and a room, atolerance, that can be really
incredible.
So, I just wanted to Thank youfor those insights, because I
really think they're true.
No, thank you, and they'rebeautifully said.

(01:28:43):
So yeah, I'll, will you tell uswhat you're working on, how
people can work with you,because I know about your
initiative on campus for NYU,but you've also started a
consulting business, and soundslike you're starting a new book
as well.
Yes, so in 2020, I left NYU in afull time capacity, and I
started my business, which iscalled Mindfulness Consulting.

(01:29:04):
I do group programs.
One of them is called Flourish.
It's a chance to really divedeep in a cohort of other
people, to deepen yourmeditation practice, and to
really help your meditationpractice flourish your life.
Like, to really let it expandyour life.
And so that is periodicallyscheduling, it's periodically

(01:29:27):
open for people to join.
And I also come toorganizations, businesses, and I
do workshops and other kinds ofprograms.
So if you are interested in thatkind of consulting edge of the
work, or you're interested in myclasses and cohorts, please, you
can find everything on mywebsite, yaelshy.

(01:29:48):
com.
That's beautiful.
I just, as a personal note,again, I'm so grateful for what
you have written and therelatable way in which you
shared these deeper teachings.
But I'm also just so gratefulfor your kindness and that you
put this work in the world andthat you would share it with me
today.
So thank you.
Yeah.

(01:30:08):
Thank you so much, Becca.
Thank you.
It's been really fun.
All right.
And we'll see you next time.
I'm so glad you were here forthat conversation.
So some of the top takeaways forme would be meditation is not
about getting rid of ourthoughts.
It's about shifting the amountof time we're living in our
thoughts versus the presentmoment.

(01:30:30):
Number two, mindfulness is likethe in between.
Between sessions of meditationwhen we're actually in life
doing very human things,mindfulness is paying attention
To what we are actually doing.
And it's amazing how muchvitality that can add to the
thing itself and to your life ingeneral.
And finally, there is so muchworth in letting ourselves feel

(01:30:54):
our emotions.
It's some of our bravest work,and it also makes us a lot more
capable of connection andcompassion.
It also helps us inrelationships.
It helps us navigate tech morepurposefully, and ultimately
leads us back to compassion forourselves, or even helps us
learn who that self is.

(01:31:15):
And a growing awareness ofourself is what helps us
ultimately show up as ourselvesin the world.
And there's just so much worthin that.
So thank you for joining me forthat conversation.
Thank you for sharing it withyour friends.
And I'm grateful to be a part ofgetting this work and these
words.

(01:31:37):
And I'm grateful to be part ofgetting this work and these
teachings out into the world.
I am We're really excited aboutnext week also.
I'm sure that doesn't shock youby now.
We have William DeMille on thepodcast and this is the first of
two episodes.
He is a Master RegenerativeGardener and he's a creator of

(01:31:58):
what is called the GeorgicSchoolroom and the Georgic
Revolution.
They do courses and boot campsfor regenerative gardening and
agriculture.
No matter what environmentyou're trying to grow food in,
he actually provides all of thefood for a cattle ranch that he
works on in northern Nevada.
And people, if he can grow foodin where he lives in northern

(01:32:19):
Nevada, I promise it will work.
In many other places.
He is the author of Worry FreeEating, and in that book you can
learn some of the principlesthat he has been coaching me on.
I have taken the boot camps andgone out to the cattle ranch,
and it has completely changedhow I look at the soil,
gardening, outdoors.
and a human's impact on theearth around us.

(01:32:41):
We talk about what changes thetaste and the nutritional
content of our food.
We talk about some commontraditional gardening or
agriculture methods that canactually be creating some of our
biggest problems in the garden,like compacted soil or weeds or
pests, and some different thingsthat we can do that change it
to.

(01:33:01):
Make gardening an entirelydifferent experience He works
from people who are gardening inall kinds of spaces from pots on
their backyard to To hundreds oreven thousands of acres and he
teaches us in this first episodeThe principles that we will need
to know before we go to parttwo, which will be released in

(01:33:22):
about a month, and in part twowe talk about the practical
tools that you can do as you arebeginning a garden, if you're
more of a kind of backyardgarden with a plot of land.
Raising food for your family.
So, lots of interesting things.
He is a very intelligent personand a great teacher, and I'm
just really excited to share theconversation with you.

(01:33:42):
Please remember to share thisepisode with at least one person
who you think it can make adifference for.
That is how we help ourcommunity and show up for each
other, and that is the wholepoint of putting this podcast
together.
So, until next week, enjoy yourlife.
And I'll work on that too.

(01:34:05):
I'll meet you here.

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