The Good, Bad, and Super Ugly of Psychedelic &, Plant Medicines: Journey with Master Coach Kole Whitty

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the WhatReally Makes a Difference
podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Becca Whittaker.
I've been a doctor of naturalhealth care for over 20 years
and a professional speaker onhealth and vitality, but
everything I thought I knewabout health was tested when my
own health hit a landslide and Ibecame a very sick patient.

(00:22):
I've learned that showing up forour own health and vitality is a
step by step journey that wetake for the rest of our lives.
And this podcast is aboutsharing some of the things that
really make a difference on thatjourney with you.
So grab your explorer's hatwhile we get ready to check out
today's topic.
My incredible guest network andI will be sharing some practical

(00:45):
tools, current science andancient wisdom that we all need,
no matter what stage we are atin our health and vitality.
I've already got my hat on andmy hand out, so let's dive in
and we can all start walkingeach other home.

(01:07):
And we are back for part two ofthis conversation with Cole
Witte.
For those of you who listened topart one last week and had to
wait a whole week and let out asuper frustrated groan, You're
welcome.
And we're back.
I promised we would be.
I am so grateful for the waythat Cole shared her insights

(01:27):
and her experience in thisepisode.
She is a master teacher as wellas an integration coach and a
very psychedelic informed coachwith all of her experience.
She's a person that I trust tosit down with you.
And you're important to me.
So what we are talking about inthis one is actually based on
questions that I have receivedfrom people in the audience and

(01:49):
from others.
I know that our patients orfriends who are interested in
some of these plant medicines orplant teachers, or in just
giving themselves some helpthat's sort of outside of the
box, but they've heard of someexperiences when people tried it
and it was excellent.
Not a good thing.
Sometimes there's some crap thathappens in these spaces too.
I think in so many places in ourhuman experience, sometimes

(02:12):
there are opportunities that aretransformational and beautiful
and full of light and love.
And then somehow once humanitygets ahold of it in some spaces,
it can twist and there turnsinto a shadow world and there
turns into crap.
And sometimes there's abuse andneglect and secrets and just

(02:32):
crummy.
And this episode is aboutnavigating that.
We're talking about the good,the bad, and the ugly of the
psychedelics or other plantmedicine teachers and how we can
navigate it better.
So she talks about the differentplant medicine teachers that are
most available, what it's likeif you go to Peru or Costa Rica
or if you don't, um, where thesecome from, what they are like,

(02:56):
what they are intended for.
How we can choose a facilitator,shaman, or coach, what questions
we can ask to set ourselves upfor success, how we can prepare
beforehand, how we can integrateafterward.
And that's a big reason why wedid two parts.
Integration is such a huge piecethat we found it worthy of part

(03:17):
one.
So if you haven't listened topart one yet, and you would like
more information abouttransformation and integration,
Please pop over to that episodeand then come back and we can
use that as a base for thisdiscussion.
I'm just excited to get into it.
So without further ado, I bringyou Cole Whitty,
Transformational Coach.

(03:40):
Okay.
So I am so excited to get intothis and I have lots of
questions and also quite a fewquestions from my listeners.
So first of all, I would like toknow, Since you are a
professional in the integration,since you have all kinds of
experiences with different plantmedicines in different
traditions, understandings ofhow to use it, I'm so grateful

(04:02):
for your perspective in thisspace because I am hearing
psychedelics or plant medicines,ayahuasca, journey space, and
LSD, all kinds of things spokenof in such a positive light now,
right?
It was shamed and kept verysecret.
And then, Now I'm hearing somany people talk about it, but
talk about it in a way that'slike, Oh, my buddy has some of

(04:24):
this, or, Oh, so and so went anddid a retreat.
And now they think they know howto facilitate this.
And I just saw warnings all overthe place for my own personal
life.
I was invited to do plantmedicine many times.
And.
for me it was just red flags andthat had to do with fear that

(04:48):
had to do with religiousupbringing but it also had to do
with some of the things I heardfrom those spaces and I knew if
I ever was to take part insomething like that it would
have to be a spiritual call thatI felt from inside and it would
have to be with people who Itruly felt safe with and who
understood What they were doinghad a lot of experience and

(05:11):
could handle whatever it wasthat came up for me.
I was really afraid of whatwould come up for me or what
could, and I am not a personthat really wants to process
full trauma in the middle offive people that I've never met
before.
So I had some serious questionsand I ended up doing just, you

(05:34):
know, disclosure.
I did end up doing two plantmedicine journeys.
I was careful about the setting.
I was careful about who Itrusted and they were incredibly
safe and cautious with me and itended up being two.
incredibly deep spiritualexperiences in my life that I'm
so grateful for.

(05:54):
I would like you please to helpus answer these questions so
that other people, if they feelthat call and if they feel the
interest or they want moreinformation, can choose people
that can facilitate anexperience where you truly go in
deeper inside yourself.
And there is isn't the reallybad side effects.

(06:16):
So let's talk about the good,the bad, and the ugly.
Please, if you will, help usout, Cole.
First of all, why would peoplewant to do plant medicine or
chemically assisted journeys?
Well, so This is where I have aproblem.
And I take ownership of all mythoughts and feelings.

(06:37):
So anyone that's like, youshouldn't be judgmental.
Oh no, no, no.
You're going to hear all myjudgments and appraisals from my
experience, 15 years in thework, all the stuff I've seen
because I don't shy away or findthat having judgments makes you
a bad person.
It's, are you operatingauthentic to what you say you
believe and who you are?
And when people mirror that backto you as accurate for me, that
is the goal.

(06:57):
So that people can.
honestly make decisions on ifthey want to be around you or
not.
So that is my sole goal as ahuman is to say, am I congruent?
With who I say I am, who I wantto be, and what people reflect
back to me, right?
So that's my precursor to allthe judgments and projections
you're going to hear because ashumans that's all we do is
create stories, okay?

(07:18):
And so even by saying she's veryjudgmental requires judgment.
So now that we've cleared thatout of the way, welcome into the
world of my mind with all myjudgments, projections,
approximations, and experience.
And truth.
It's all of us.
It's all of us.
And I think all of us all atonce, all the time, all exactly.

(07:40):
Yeah.
And, and that's where we canactually move from, from an
honest place is when we actuallytake ownership of that versus
it's not anything wrong withyou.
This is, this is mine.
Y'all anyone listening right nowhas the freedom to change it.
If they don't agree, howbeautiful you are still in
control.
Right?
So.

(08:01):
My biggest.
Our issue at large is theglorification of substances
that's happening right now.
Because I'm watching peoplereplace alcohol with ketamine
and calling it a journey.
Now does that make it not ajourney?
No.
But when we are replacing onesubstance for another so that we
can connect, we are stillsupporting our inability to

(08:25):
connect without being altered.
Right.
And so where my problem comes isnot even that I'm cool with
that, but let's just call itdoing drugs with friends.
Let's just call it having a triptogether.
Um, and because there is rarelyan intake process, there is
rarely an integration process.
There is rarely a consensualunderstanding of what's going to

(08:48):
transpire.
Lots of boundaries are notcommunicated because there's no
one really in charge.
So there, when you have thisapproach of Everyone's going to
open their heart and we're allgoing to be harmonious.
People are bringing all theirshit with them.
And so even their ideas of agood person, a bad person, an
integral person are going tovary.

(09:08):
So when you enter a lot of thesespaces where it's, we're going
to sit and do ketamine togetheror MDMA together.
If there's not conversationaround terms of engagement, what
is appropriate in thiscontainer, how to handle it, if
you need anything, then thoseare the first signs that it is
not the container for me.
Because when no one's in charge,no one takes responsibility.

(09:29):
And that doesn't work for me.
I've been and constantly getinvited.
If I had a dollar for every timesomeone handed me a handful of
mushrooms somewhere, justbecause they assume if I've been
doing this work for 15 years,surely I just want all the
mushrooms.
I don't people.
If you hand me mushrooms, I'mnever going to eat them.
It's not, I don't know how theywere raised, I don't know who

(09:51):
they came from, I don't knowwhat species they are, and those
all matter to me.
And so this generalization ofThis is incredible and it's
medicine.
I do not ascribe to this asmedicine.
I am not a sick person.
And so if I tell my body, I'mgoing to ingest this substance
and call it medicine.

(10:11):
When on another layer ofconstructs, I am a little
opposed to medicine because Iwas over prescribed as a child
because I don't really trustmedicine because there's a time
and a place.
I have two constructs thataren't really harmonious because
on a deeper level, My body, I'vetold, I don't need medicine.
So this is where the selfawareness comes in.

(10:34):
One of my elders, one of myteachers down in Peru is named
Malku.
Malku was the first person tosay to me, we have to stop
saying this medicine thing.
You are not sick people.
You need to reconnect to theearth.
You need to see yourself again,but that doesn't make you sick.
Now for some people there, youare on a healing journey, but
this is a fraction of thepeople.

(10:55):
And Malku was the first one tointroduce to me the concept of
power plants, master mushrooms,and that these are master
teachers.
If you show up to a ceremony asa patient, you're already coming
from a space of deficit, ofillness, of something's wrong
with me, versus An empoweredspace of, hey, master teacher,

(11:18):
hey, ancestors, hey, God.
Jesus, whoever that is for you,show me what I need to see of
why I'm not healing.
Show me what I need to see toget back in my heart.
Show me what I need to see ofwhere things went sideways.
Show me what I need to see to,what do I need to do with my
life?
But this, many people are comingin with the same conditioning of

(11:40):
reverence they were taught inreligion.
And so you have to stay on yourmat and you need to be quiet and
you need to not move and that'sreverence.
That is contextual.
When I go down to the jungle,when I work with the Huni Kuin
tribe, their only, we'll say,rules, one, nobody gets to leave
the space.

(12:00):
You all stay in the roomtogether.
When I hear of facilitatorsgoing to bed at midnight, when
they just dosed somebody at 10PM, I have a problem with that.
I have a problem.
It happens.
And you are inducing a highpossibility of trauma.
When you leave someone in analtered space and you just leave
the room and go to bed, youactually abandoning them in the

(12:22):
realms, the elders and truehealers that I work with would
never.
Their rule is no one leaves thespace till everyone has
returned, right?
And they, they stay and theysing all night.
The Huni Kuin start singing at 8p.
m.
They are the last ones to leave.

(12:44):
It's 7 a.
m.
when they're wrapping up.
To leave when we all decide, youknow, when we're all ready to go
to bed.
And for me, that resonated verydeeply because the Marley Tume
is one of the women in thejungle she's known as the most,
she's the first recognized whatis called a pajay, which in
English or what we, the closestassociation is like a shaman.

(13:06):
For her, she's like, if I'mgoing to send everyone out into
the realms, then I don't leaveuntil I make sure everyone's
back home.
Like it's irresponsible.
She doesn't say it'sirresponsible because she's,
we're translating from twolanguages, right?
But she's just like if I saythat I love you, why would I
send you to a dark place if Idon't have to?

(13:27):
Like it's not necessary for youto get the lessons and the
teachings.
Or on the flip side of that, Whywould I blast you out and then
abandon you if I say that I loveyou and that resonated for me
very very deeply So then itcomes down to step one is we
have to remove thisGeneralization of why would
people do it and talk aboutmaybe three main buckets that I

(13:48):
see One some people are lookingfor healing of their physical
body could be cancer autoimmuneissues Things of that nature
that we're talking about acute.
This like, this is a problemversus someone that's having
back pain, sleeplessness,migraines, you know, things of
that nature.
So step one is people seeking adeeper layer of healing because

(14:11):
they've exhausted Westernmedicine.
And maybe they weren't open topsychedelics or these master
teachers before, but they arenow because on paper, they
should have been healed.
But they're not.
So we see that a lot.
My main client base in like 2018ish was biohackers, biochemists,
healthcare practitioners,chiropractors, people who were

(14:33):
considered more kind of at theforefront of medicine and
changes and that kind of thingwho had become sick.
And so they'd gone on their ownhealing journey, but they had
already been open to a morealternative.
To me, it's not alternative.
It's innovative or it's,Evolutionary medicine versus
alternative in manycircumstances.

(14:54):
So we have the people, yeah, Idon't like the alternatives.
That's me, and I love that.
Evolutionary medicine, informedmedicine, and that's also the
bucket, that's why I tried.
So yes, you're speaking right toit.
Right, and that's what makessomeone Then also why they can
be resistant to plant medicineis if Western medicine, if they

(15:16):
don't agree with how it's beingdone, again, there's some
unconscious things workingthrough them where they don't
trust medicine.
So now you're bringing theseideas you've attached to
medicine into what you'recalling medicine work.
It's confusing for yourphysicality when it's been
conditioned into certain ways ofbeing.
Down in South America, they saymedicina.
But Meina is all of the plantsin the jungle, not just

(15:38):
ayahuasca.
So we are coming and saying, oh,Meina, you know, the me, the
medicine is ayahuasca, wachuma,whatever.
But they're saying that for timeand rosemary and pine.
So it's disjointed in thetranslation in our American
context.
So the first bucket, people arelooking for healing and so I'll

(15:59):
tend to see them.
They place the psychedelicpsychoactive master teachers
onto a pedestal where I'mpraying to you.
Oh, thank you.
There's a difference betweengratitude and groveling.
And a lot of people I watchedthem grovel to the medicine and
they're giving their power away,which is a problem because they

(16:19):
just took their beliefs inreligion and now they've
displaced it onto somethingelse.
They're calling the medicineversus collaborative.
I'm coming as a student.
That's why I say masterteachers.
In plant, animal, or fungi form.
In spirit molecule form.
In chemical form.
For me, they're all teachers.
When I show up as a student, Icome with an open mind, a

(16:41):
willingness to learn.
And then when I leave the space,my commitment is to be a divine
articulation and walking proofof the teachings.
That is what a student does.
A patient leaves and goes backand does, you know, continues
their physical therapy and theirintegration protocols.
A student Walks out in the worldto be that, to embody that, if

(17:06):
they want to be, for me, anempowered student.
And so just that change indynamic now separates from the
people who are sick to thepeople who, maybe they've just
got some things that are notworking.
They're reactive.
Maybe they're a CEO and theyhave a high turnover rate and
they finally realized thatthey're the common denominator,

(17:28):
right?
It's not in fact that they keephiring the wrong people.
It's that they're hyper vigilantreactive They have expectations
like all these kinds of things.
So Societally if they'resuccessful, we wouldn't call
that anything wrong untilthey're sleepless their
relationships don't last Theirchildren are acting out, right?

(17:48):
So they're seeing evidence thathow their, their behaviors are
not working for them.
And that usually hits somewherebetween 35 45, somewhere in that
range, when someone's reached alevel of success and also seeing
what's not working and thatthey're the common denominator.
That's typically when I also seethem start to, the health impact

(18:09):
is like 38 to 48, when someone'shealth tends to crash if they're
driven by past circumstances.
that are shame, guilt,significance, need to, you know,
need for approval, those kindsof things.
And so we have the illnessbucket of people who are in such
a state of disease.
They're looking, they really doneed a more deeper spiritual and

(18:33):
there are healers and I'vewitnessed miracles for sure.
But out of 15 years, I had maybetwo huge miracles for myself out
of hundreds.
And so when this generalizationis this is a miracle and it can
change your life, it can,absolutely.
So could breathing intentionallyfor 15 minutes a day.

(18:56):
So could going to a Tony Robbinsevent.
So could, so the potential'sthere, but the actuality isn't.
And so the documentaries and thenews stories and the, You know,
a lot of what's seen online is,Oh, it's like 10 years of
therapy in one night.
Yeah.
But it depends on what therapistyou're comparing it to.

(19:18):
And maybe it depends on yourexperience.
It can be 10 years of therapy inone night, or it can take you
quite a bit of therapy toovercome what happens in that
one night.
Right.
And on a, and honestly, a greattherapist can get you those
results.
It's just that You know, you'relooking at, if we look at
therapy overall, it's 74 percentwhite women.

(19:41):
We have counties in the UnitedStates, like, 33 percent don't
even have one licensed one.
Then you have places likeAustin, where it's saturated.
And then great therapists alwayshave a long waiting list.
So then, when you actually needthem, you can't get into them.
And when you look at our mentalhealth since 2020, it has
escalated so exponentially thatit's something like, what is the

(20:04):
metric, some absurd like 20percent of teen girls have
experienced severe depression,suicidal ideation, like it's
very, very, very, very high inour kids and our teens.
And so, yes, we have the mentalhealth and disease.
Not, and this is where we justhave to see them as different
buckets and why taking radicalself responsibility for what

(20:27):
container is going to be mostsupportive of you, the process
that you're in, and seeing itjust like going out to eat at a
restaurant.
If you don't like spicy food,don't go to that restaurant.
You know, that's like aauthentic Indian where they're
not spicy is too much for yourstomach.
Right?
Right.
Like, this is how I see.

(20:48):
Having these master teacherexperiences is it's finding the
facilitator.
That's the kind of teacherSupport system that works and
functions for you if let's saythat you're looking, people will
call this authentic or, youknow, I want an authentic
ayahuasca experience, whichreally just means I want not a
white person running it, whichis, which is fine, but just

(21:12):
someone that actually knows whatthey're doing, not like has done
to and call themselves theshaman and they're going to give
it to me for 25 bucks.
I mean, look.
Most people I know who areauthentic want something
different than that.
Totally.
Right.
And this is where the first stepfor me was education.
This is why we stepped out offacilitating and out into the
field.
We got a very, or I got a veryclear message that our ability

(21:36):
to articulate these divinespaces and messages into a third
dimensional context is why weneeded to stop facilitating and
step forward with education.
Step one is we have to geteducated.
The idea that You're going downto the jungle means you're
getting an authentic experienceis already concerning.
Because there's a lot of harmhappening in the jungle, two of

(21:58):
the most common ways is justbecause someone comes from a
tribe does not mean that theyhave integrity in the way that
you think they should, would, orwhatever.
They don't understand the waythat you think.
You're gonna come with yourassumptions, your projections,
your whatever, and when you havea hard time integrating, they

(22:18):
don't help you.
They're not integration coaches.
That's not a part of theculture.
And if you think that justbecause someone is of indigenous
background, that they didn't getinto it for the money when they
saw people in their tribe havingall these tourists come down,
not just for money, butsignificance, they're human.

(22:39):
And if you think that there'snot a lot of sexual predatory
Stuff happening down in thejungle.
Please do more research.
There's something called gringahunters, which is literally
South American shaman men.
who are falling in love, we'llsay, with American women, who
come down bright eyed and bushyeyed, and the shaman says, or

(23:02):
the facilitator, or thecurandero, or whatever, it's
like, we had a past lifetogether.
I can see her inner shamanwaking up, and then nine months
later, she's got a baby, shestays for about a year, and then
she comes back home.
Like, this is a very common,Yeah.
Occurrence down in the junglesand down in South America.
Now, if you know that fully now,and there's people that will

(23:25):
take advantage or not takeadvantage anywhere.
So I've, I feel like going intoan altered state, you have to
think about it as, as I teach mykids, like, okay, if you're
going to drink, Here's the,where you, where you are safe to
drink and sort of lose controlof your judgment.
Here's where you're not.
And I think in this realm, withthe plant teachers, I mean,

(23:48):
you're zooming to other placesor to intense inner world.
And you need to be with peoplethat will be respectful and not
take advantage in that area.
Same as any other state you stepout.
Well, even, even with that.
It is culturally different.
The men that I know down therethat I've had to sit down and

(24:11):
say, I'm leading retreat downhere, you're not allowed to give
anyone a massage.
Period.
Because culturally it'sdifferent.
It's not the same.
They have wives and girlfriendsand it's not, The thing is, the
actions can be consensual in thetime and in the moment, but it's
because you have wounded womengoing down seeking healing from
masculine structures, or men, ortheir father, or something, and

(24:34):
it gets attached to thissignificant shaman who sees me
and I see him in a place likePeru making eye contact.
Most culturally, the men willnot make eye contact with you
because one, on a spirituallevel, a lot of them will say
Americans are way too much.
Like I, it's just like, they,they're like hungry, ravenous,

(24:56):
you know, they, they come withlike their souls bit bore open
for other men down there.
It's an invitation for deeperintimacy.
That's an interest.
Like I'm making, I'm gazing intoyour soul because we have this
deep connection that awakensthem as.
humans.
And so for me, it's not even,you can feel someone's of the

(25:18):
purest heart and then they wantto give you a massage and help
you with healing.
And then before you know it,you're hearing a belt buckle
come undone.
Like this isn't, it's that wehave to remove that predatory is
bad versus predatory is hungrywhen it recognizes opportunity.
They, I don't, my experience,and this does vary, and I do

(25:39):
know of predatory situations isthat, You're going into a
culture you don't understand soyou don't even know what
questions to ask and you'regiving again your power away
Versus never give your poweraway.
And this is where it getsconfusing when you hear about
psychedelics like oh Well, youneed to trust and surrender.
I don't surrender.

(25:59):
I trust myself to be guided I donot surrender like to me that
meaning for me personally doesnot because I think of it like a
riptide, a rip current, right?
If you're out at sea, a ripcurrent is going to pull you
regardless.
Now instead of surrender, Iallow it to take me to where

(26:19):
it's going to go so that I canswim after that because that's
what they tell you with ripcurrents.
If you get pulled out, just letit take you.
It will stop and then you'll beable to swim, right?
But I don't surrender to thepull.
I just allow it to happen.
In psychedelics, I don't give mypower to the master teacher, the

(26:40):
mushrooms, ayahuasca, wachuma,nothing.
I trust myself to be guided,which means I discern and feel
into who I feel safe with.
If there's any trepidation on ifI feel safe with the person,
it's a no.
If there's trepidation aboutpeople in the container, am I

(27:00):
willing to explore thattrepidation this time?
Because how do you learn thedifference between your instinct
and your intuition?
Your instinct from the pastmight tell you men are not safe.
But your intuition is like, no,you working with this person
could heal that part.
The problem is, we don'ttypically know the difference
until we put ourselves inpositions where we feel the

(27:22):
difference.
We're like, oh no, I knew Ishouldn't have gone.
And I went against it.
Because I felt a pull, but whatit was, was my Oh, I should go
because they told me it'sbecause I don't trust.
And so again, it's my deficit.
It's something wrong with me.
That's why I should go.
Right.
And so it's, This is where bodymapping for me is everything.

(27:44):
It's learning the differencebetween your instinct and your
intuition.
Because at the end of the day,you actually don't need a shaman
or guide at all for psychedelicexperiences when you're talking
about lower dose.
Now, lower dose to me would beLess than four grams of
mushrooms, less than two forprobably most people.
I work with people that workwith 50 grams at a time.

(28:07):
So when someone tells me a herodose is five, I just laugh at
them, to be honest with you.
But that's a story for adifferent day.
Right.
I mean, I haven't got, ten isthe most I've done at one time.
But, you know, still.
Low, slow, slow dose is what Ido, but that's how I typically
respond best.
Like, I just need to fill the,the, I need to fill it.

(28:32):
Do that.
I let it carry me and I go, Irequire very little and
honestly, for me, that's a partof trust.
I'm like, Hey, can you give methe least amount that will give
me the benefit?
Building.
Yes, exactly.
And this is where, when you knowyourself, cause here's two,
again, We have the people thatthink they're sick.
Then we have the people that arein a bit of a more stable mental

(28:55):
position.
They, they aren't desperate forhealing.
They're like, okay, this didn'twork.
I'm not giving up.
So they still have a level ofcertainty and self trust.
When someone doesn't trustthemselves, that's when I'm most
concerned on who they choose.
And as a coach, I want to helpask them more questions because
it's not about getting the rightanswer from a shaman or from a

(29:17):
facilitator.
It's how do you feel about theanswers they give you to your
questions?
So that you can feel into itwith your whole body, right?
Because some of the, you know,we talked earlier about like red
flag things.
So as someone that you expressedon the last episode, more
specifically, if someone hashigh performance tendencies, one

(29:39):
of two things ends up needing tohappen.
Either they need to start lowerand build their trust because
that altered feeling, they haveto actually titrate and not go
beyond their threshold in theirnervous system or else it's
going to shut them out.
It's going to freak out becausethey have forced themselves for
too long to do things.
Workouts, work, long hours, andthe body refuses to be pushed

(30:03):
anymore.
So if you do high dose, it'sjust going to purge it out, or
do nothing, or put you into alot of suffering because if the
person's propensity has beenharder, faster, more now, that
is the problem, right?
On the flip side, some peoplehave become so rigid.
And they are so much in controlthat it requires higher dose to

(30:27):
get past that threshold becausethey can control it still too
much.
But it has to be a choice, not afacilitator's choice.
And this is where when I wasdoing my own individual work,
because I journeyed on my ownhealing journey for six years
before I started to explore cofacilitating and facilitating.
So I had explored all theseplaces within myself.

(30:51):
And that's the difference in askilled facilitator versus what
we would call a tripsitter or aspace holder.
So Someone that has a lot ofhealth condition things and is
looking for healing wouldprobably want to explore more
with a shamanic practitioner,someone that works with energy,
someone that can be moreinvolved in their experience.

(31:13):
So we would call that either aSherpa, a psychedelic Sherpa, or
so someone that's a shaman,energy worker, ayahuasquero,
someone that's working on more,more realms than just the mind.
Versus If you are, like for me,I don't really need a

(31:35):
facilitator.
I need just a trip sitter that Ifeel safe with, so that I feel
safe enough to go internalwithin myself.
But there were absolutely timesI needed.
more of a facilitator because Icouldn't, the things that were
coming up, I needed to process,I needed to talk through, I
needed energy moved.
So I needed someone to be theremore involved because it was

(31:58):
like being dropped in the middleof China.
And I'm, I'm like, but I need, Idon't understand.
I don't understand.
So I needed.
More engagement, but then afterlearning the language more, then
I didn't need that same level ofexternal support.
I just needed to feel safe toexplore within myself, right?

(32:19):
And so the, I'm going to weavethese together.
We have the person that'sseeking for health.
We have the person that'sseeking for, they want to, it's
more corrective.
So it's like someone that'sgoing to the gym because they
want to lose 10 to 20 pounds.
You know what I mean?
They want to strengthen somethings, but they're not
recovering from some bigsurgery.

(32:39):
They're not, you know, that'sthe difference for someone
seeking healing.
They need more hands on supportto heal.
And so I like to say having acoach is kind of like having a
cast on a broken arm.
So the, the coach can besupportive, but it can't stay as
the sole support or else othermuscles start to atrophy.

(33:01):
So if I go into a psychedelicexperience, a transformative
experience.
Some part of me disintegrates,same with a car accident, having
a baby, all of those create afracture.
If I have a community I feelsafe in, that might be all I
need to integrate back in withsupport.
But for some people it's a moresevere break.

(33:22):
They need a greater assessmentof what the injury is, what
support could look like, becauseit's not just a cast.
Right, we're going to have toput pins in, we need a surgery,
like, they've got more complexissues than just the healing of
trauma.
What that could look like isthey're in a relationship that's
still not safe.
They live in an area that's notsafe.

(33:43):
Like their, their situation isfar more complex.
Then stepping into a healingcontainer for a childhood
experience.
They are not safe now.
So they, you know, that might bethe person you want to have a
therapist and do this kind ofwork and have a spiritual guide
because they need a little bitmore of a team because of the
complexity of the situation.

(34:04):
That makes sense.
Then the people that are, thepeople that just need more
guidance.
Because they're not sure whatquestions to ask or where to go.
They just need someone theytrust to have questions and help
with accountability andstrategizing.
To me, that's what a coach does.
And so, for, let's say, it'slike having a personal trainer.

(34:25):
You can go to the gym and workout for free.
You can go to a psychedelicexperience and work your mind,
right?
And do it for way less money.
Mushrooms you can get enough for20, 30 bucks to have an
experience a lot of the time.
I wouldn't do it that way, butyou know, just to compare.
And you can have a gymmembership to something like
Planet Fitness for 10 a month.
So for me, the difference isjust like in fitness.

(34:47):
Some people will hire thetrainer because they have goals
and intentions that the trainerhas experience in helping them
get there.
Other people are just going topay for the planet fitness
membership and go do theexercises they Googled and
learned about.
And they can, if they keepshowing up, they're going to get
results, but that's all theyhave access to is the 10 a

(35:08):
month.
There's not a right or wrong.
It's that when you start to takethat radical self responsibility
to say, you know what, I wantthe support.
because I don't want to tripthrough it for two years.
I don't want to learn the hardway.
And so this is when you startbringing in the questions or

(35:28):
I'll say kind of the third tier.
I've been kind of weaving in andout of it.
So we have the sick person, theperson that's looking for more
adjustments, we'll say.
And then we have the personthat's looking to how do I
Transform my community.
Now it's not about them anymore.
They've gone through what wecall the snake Puma condor
phase.
They went through thetransformation of the snake
energy, the archetype.

(35:50):
They are now they've gonethrough the Puma energy of focus
and agility and drive.
Now they want to shift intocondor and the big vision for
their community.
How can I impact optimize andtransform in a bigger way?
And so this is where they're notusing it for medicine.
And I don't even say using, Isay, they're not sitting with
it.
Psychedelics or master teachers,they want to know, you know, I

(36:14):
say, my, when I set an intentionbefore a psychedelic experience
or master teacher journey, Ialways suggest setting an
intention.
Thank you.
An intention is what do I wantto know, do, be, or understand.
If it's your first time workingwith one psychedelic or master

(36:34):
teacher, your intention might beto experience it.
Not some bigger, you know,thing.
Okay.
But the more that you getskilled in the work, not more
experienced, more skilled inthese spaces, in these realms,
then it becomes what else, whatdo I need to know is possible

(36:56):
for the impact I can make in theworld.
It's more, again, going to thatevolutionary.
Like, now I've done the work onmyself.
This is where I'm going back toGod, Source, Universe, Earth,
and saying, now how can I servein the greatest way possible,
trusting I can be abundant andgive abundantly.

(37:17):
Not the sacrificial model ofcare.
Not the people who are willingto die for what they believe in,
but the ones that are committingto truly living for what they
believe in so that they can livean extra 20 years.
We're dying too young for ourtechnology, and the only people
living longer, so many are keptalive, for me, in a way that's

(37:38):
unethical and to serve a system.
If we're doing this deeperinternal work, my question for
myself and these experiences andwith these master teachers is
one, setting an intention.
My intention is to live to 140.
That is my intention, right?
So how does that inform now?

(37:58):
I never forget that life canchange.
I can, I never forget there's abigger planet play in my
context.
So that's there, but thatdoesn't mean again, I'm
collaborating with God.
I'm collaborating with theuniverse.
I'm not just letting thingshappen by happenstance.
We are going to con sequence.
together, right?
We're going to create things insequence to the best of my

(38:20):
ability.
I'm going to show up.
I'm going to listen.
I'm going to learn.
I'm going to grow, but imaginethe difference that it would be
in our society if we had peopleas healthy as possible until 125
years old versus they made it toa hundred, but the last 30 years
they were pretty much in like acare facility.
So how far with thatintelligence?

(38:42):
Yes.
And the intelligence and howthey could advise and how they
could share.
Like, when I look, so I was bornin 1983.
When I look at how technologyhas changed, I truly believe
right now we're in as big of ashift as the Industrial
Revolution was.
For the 1900s and so in knowingthat that means that if I'm 40

(39:04):
almost 41 now And I've gotanother hundred years.
I plan on being here How could Iimpact the world if I was
committed to staying that longto the best of my ability that
means I would have toContinually understand things
differently and be open Not onlyto my ideas around aging, but my

(39:25):
ideas around evolution.
When, when I'm around friendsthat are like, Oh man, I feel so
old.
You will not hear me ever, ever,ever say that out loud to my
body.
I will not.
And I know that that's why mybody is operating the way that
it is at 41 versus a lot of myfriends.
I know that why, you know, myhusband, Ta, who just turned 52,

(39:49):
and is a grandfather, and hisdaughter is 32, Wow.
Exactly.
He does not look 52.
Oh, I know.
He looks younger now than he didin his thirties, in his mid
thirties.
And for us, that's because aslong as we ascribe to the idea,
now is the body going to change?
Yes.
But the idea that aging meanswe're going to hunch over and

(40:12):
we're going to just continuallylike collapse in, for us, it's
not that we reject the idea.
We show up for ourselves forthat to not be a possibility
when you start to understandthings differently.
And so that's where sitting withthese master teachers becomes
evolutionary because ourphysical bodies have not changed

(40:35):
in thousands of years, millionsof years.
Our nervous system, our primalinstincts have not changed.
So what does it mean in theevolution of AI?
What does it mean in theevolution of the earth?
How do we integrate and growwith it?
Because the way thatintelligence is shifting, we

(40:57):
have to shift.
Thinking about that objective,when you said, I want to, my
plan is to live till 140, Ithought, Wow, I do not feel that
way at all.
I do not want to be here thatlong feeling this stuff.
But as you talk, I'm feelingwhat's happening in my body when

(41:19):
I realize what a shift it is toplan forward for feeling good
and feeling healthy all the waythere.
Like do I want to be at 90 buthealthy and able to share what I
am doing versus the culturalexpectation that we have.

(41:39):
of aging and, and losing theconnection in the tribe, losing
the, the wisdom that can beoffered by our elders.
Like that is what we see, butthat does not have to be how it
is.
And we can evolve back intobeing able to coordinate with

(42:00):
our older generation.
What you said in part one, whenyou said, if you break the word
healthy into heal thy, then I'mthinking, wow, if I want to feel
better.
feel able and present andhealthy at 90 or, or longer than
it's a whole process of heal,lie, whatever.

(42:22):
And not that we constantly haveto be doggedly, depressingly
working on healing, but there isalways something that we can
step into to heal, to expand, totune into, to listen to, and to
love.
For, for me though, the plantteachers.
It's more like I see people whoare interested in that if they

(42:42):
can tell there is somethingdeeper that they need to tune
into or to let go of and they'renot sure how, then it's like
another route that they can useto help them go into themselves
and like you said, just one ofmany.
I'm wondering if we, if I canask a few questions that I have

(43:03):
been given from our listeners.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Okay, so one of the firstquestions would be, how do I
find a place of safety?
Like, what are some questionsthat I can ask someone that's
facilitating, or if my friendsays, Oh, I heard a facilitator
is coming to this neighboringtown.
They are from Peru.

(43:24):
I'm sure it's going to be great.
What questions can you askbeforehand, and what should you
be paying attention to?
to make it so you know if you'rewalking in a space that, that
has more of a tendency to besafe or not safe.
This is coming from, from aperson that texted, that has
talked to me before saying, youknow, I hear of people

(43:47):
facilitating that I know, thatI've known for years.
And because I have known themfor years, I know There is no
way in hell that I want to sitin an altered state and let them
influence the way that I'm goingto go inside.
There's just no way in hell.
People that are finding them onInstagram might not know that,

(44:08):
but I don't know that.
So it makes them nervous to finda facilitator because they
already know facilitators thatthey don't trust.
So what questions do you ask?
So my general rule of thumb isif it's not someone I would
trust alone in my house, that'smy first thing.
Would I trust this person alonein my house after talking to
them?

(44:28):
That's my just like top level.
Cause I can't tell you how manytimes someone told me they sat
with someone that I just askedthem that question.
They're like, Oh no, I don'tthink so.
I'm like, so you wouldn't trustthem to sit in your house alone
without you there, but you aregoing to let them sit for your
external home.
Cause if you go deep into therealms, your body stays behind,
they're watching your house.

(44:48):
Right.
And so, It's, if you wouldn'tlet this person watch your dog,
walk your dog, like care foryour kid, but you would let them
be a steward over you, that's a,that's a consideration.
So the other thing I'll offerhere is I have something called
the facility, the finding yourfacilitator questionnaire.

(45:08):
I'll have, I'll send it to youso you can put it in the notes.
People just put their email,they'll get the download in
their inbox, right?
Because some of the questionsthat I ask, it's not about
getting the right answers.
It's about listening and how youfeel about the answers that you
get.
So, questions like, how longhave you been a shaman?

(45:30):
How many ceremonies have youparticipated in?
How many have you conducted?
Where did you learn?
What lineage did you study?
How do you conduct ceremonies?
How long do they last?
Is it overnight?
What time would I arrive?
How long can I anticipate beingthere?
Can my family reach me while I'mthere?

(45:52):
What's included in theexperience?
How long can I anticipate fromwhen I imbibe until it's quote
unquote over?
A lot of times people now arenot asking questions because
they've been told not to haveexpectations.
So don't ask what to expect.
Say, what can I anticipate?
Well, we're going to take it5pm.
You can anticipate by about 6.

(46:13):
30.
Most people are in theexperience.
You can anticipate that bymidnight you'll be back and you
can anticipate food will beavailable if you, or if you're
called to eat.
You can anticipate that I'mgoing to support you for up to a
week after, right?
What should I bring?
What should I wear?
What's it going to, where is itgoing to take place?

(46:35):
Is there a diet leading up to itthat I should follow?
What about if I'm on medicationsor take herbs?
It's not just about medications.
Some herbs are problematic withpsychedelic experiences.
A lot of people will say, Oh,you can't be on antidepressants
and work with mushrooms.
That's not true.
You have to do it different.
So you need someone that knowswhat they're doing.

(46:57):
You know, so there's all theserules that have come into play
that There is no definitivetotality across the board for
dosage.
There's no totality across theboard for how it's going to be
for you.
But when you can sit and talk tosomeone and be like, okay, so
what do I do if I feel unsafe?
Do you have an integrationprocess?

(47:18):
How long can I reach out to youafterwards?
If I'm struggling, what do youdo to keep confidentiality?
Because journeying in spaceswhere it's not legal.
And this idea.
where people are like, Oh, Istarted a church that doesn't
make it legal.
That makes it defensible incourt.
If something happens, if youhave a good lawyer.

(47:41):
And so I'm seeing a lot ofrecklessness with the more
overnight facilitators, peoplewithout a lot of experience that
read one article that said, Oh,well, under the religious
freedom act, I can just start achurch.
Not necessarily.
Okay.
So understanding like whatsubstance are you going to be
taking?

(48:01):
Are they willing to tell you howmuch?
Some facilitators won't tell youbecause they don't want to
create an expectation.
Or they want you to trust them.
And if they say that, for me,the red flags is if I ask
someone a question and they getdefensive, or start projecting
on me, like, Oh, you havecontrol issues, you just need to
trust me.
And it's like, no, I havecontrol issues because of all

(48:23):
the times someone said thatexact thing to me, I just need
to trust you.
And then I was violated.
So if you're unable to hold myquestion, you've already told me
what I need to know about yourcapacities for me.
It doesn't make them wrong.
You're not for me then.
Because I got questions becausemost of my life I didn't ask
questions and I gave my poweraway to authority.

(48:44):
And I had the districtattorney's office of New York
city talk me out of pressingcharges against someone.
For a sexual assault because ofthat exact reason his power.
I said, well, maybe he's rightOh, and so I have learned to
stay an advocate for myself,whether it's a shaman doctor
Religious leader my husbandwhoever if you can't handle my

(49:07):
questions, you can't handle meSo if I'm too much for you, I'm
going to go find someone who canactually Hold all of me because
for me to heal I need someone toWith the ability to hold this
level of energy, because it is alot, and I know that, and for me
to go into a space where theyinitially, it's different now,

(49:29):
but initially if I went into aspace and they were like, you
need to be quiet, stay on yourmat, don't be too loud, that was
deepening my traumas because Ihad been told I was too much in
school.
I was too loud.
I was disrupting other people.
And so I learned to be small inthe classroom.
What I needed was a containerwhere I could show up fully me,

(49:50):
where I could yell, and I couldcry, and there was a place for
that.
And I finally found afacilitator who had a sound
booth in their house.
So I could go scream and cry andfully emote.
And that's what my energy neededto heal because I have a big
mission.
I have a big purpose.
That means I need that bigenergy.

(50:11):
And that's what got me and Toddto start to become facilitators
is we were like, yeah, but wheredo the too much go?
If they're always being hushed.
In, in communities, in circles,that's the same compliance of
society that it's like stay inline, conform to the container.
This is what we do here.

(50:31):
And so we created a container ofopposite where in our main
circle, we said, everything iswelcome here.
According to you, we had rulesand guidelines, but everything
was welcome.
And if you needed a quiet space,we moved you.
That was the opposite of mostcircles, and that was for some
people freeing and for somepeople too much.

(50:53):
So it's really about knowingthere's not a right or wrong
container.
It's that take radicalresponsibility for what you
think would be most supportiveof you right now, and what might
not be, right?
I'm going to put a bow on itright here.
You want to understand somethinglike, if you've had sexual

(51:14):
trauma or abuse from men, It ismore likely you'll benefit from
a container with a masculine andfeminine person at the head, not
just a man, because thatdominant masculine energy can
feel unsafe in your body or yournervous system on an unconscious
level.
And so in the journey, it canmake it where people's bodies

(51:34):
are scared, but it's not thatthe person's wrong.
It's for whatever reason,they're reminding you of an
unsafe environment.
And for me, There's some thingsthat you work at or work through
in a ceremony and sometimes it'snot time for you to push that
far.
So I like to say 10 percent pastyour comfort level, not 50.

(51:57):
And so sometimes people arefeeling anxious and they think
they need to break through.
But what I see is that hits awall faster, which has its
benefits, but like remodeling ahouse, If you go in and you want
to just blow all the walls outbecause you want an open
concept, but you don'tunderstand that some of that is
load bearing for your life, forwho you are, and how you can

(52:20):
function, you go into apsychedelic experience, do more,
push yourself further, harder,faster, more, your entire life
can come caving in.
And that's one way to rebuild,but if you have kids, if you
have business, That way is goingto be really damaging collateral
damage versus if someone's asingle person with financial

(52:43):
resources that can take off timeor sold their business, I'm more
willing to go for thosefoundational pieces if that's
what they wish.
than someone who is a parentwith young children who has a
company that's reliant on thembecause it's too high risk of
collateral damage potential.

(53:04):
That's beautiful.
As you're talking, I'm realizingwhy mine ended up being a safe
space.
So I did have trauma with menand all the facilitators that I
knew were men.
And even if they were great men,I knew, I just inherently felt
that wasn't for me.
the spot for me.
I also, and so I chose a couple.

(53:25):
It was Michelle and KeithNorris, and they ended up being
just beautifully the perfectpeople for me, working together
and, and helping with theirunique gifts.
I also had heard a friend ofmine saying how wonderful her
experience was, but that itstarted by when she dropped in,

(53:45):
she went straight intorecreating.
Not recreating, but reexperiencing a case in which she
was raped.
And she started screaming andbeing upset right in the middle.
And her husband was telling meabout the experience that he had
had, which is that he feltsuddenly so open to all the

(54:07):
females in the area, and in thatgroup, and really wanted To be
with them and was writing thiswave of that.
But then he got distracted outby hearing his wife screaming.
This is all happening in aliving room from somebody that
just sort of knew what they weredoing.
And I thought.
No way.
Like that is the worstenvironment for me.

(54:28):
I know I take on a lot ofpeople's energy.
I know I am not going to open uplike that.
I know that if that there couldbe someone in the experience
that is feeling suddenly veryopen to touching me and that I
have had problems in the pastwith setting boundaries.
So I know why I'm there is tolearn these things, but that
doesn't mean I'm there yet.

(54:50):
So when I chose it, my questionswere.
Okay, what happens if someone isemoting?
Do I have a place where I can bethat is out of their energy
because I want them to workthrough it, but I don't want to
take on their trauma while I amopen.
So I had to make sure there wasa place for me to go because I
know I am empathic that way.

(55:12):
There also needed to be a waythat I knew who was monitoring
who, like if I, I didn't figurethat I was going to want to sit
with Keith and when I was.
In, in the medicine, he was theperson I wanted to sit beside.
Michelle would come in and out.
And I knew, because we hadtalked before, that it was

(55:33):
important to me to have otherfemales going in and out of my
space.
And they, they did what theysaid they would do.
We talked about it beforehandand they knew how, and they
followed through.
So I felt safe enough to, to gointo the places where I needed
to go.
And I think that's just sovital.
Yes.
And that's where you saidsomething really important is

(55:55):
you were able to then, for yourbody to feel safety around a
very big muscular man, right?
Like he's as man as you can getas far as a big, like a
masculine energy.
But when you ask those questionson the front side and you have a
man and a woman, it's Myquestion, when I go to South
America, if it's only a malepresiding from the jungle, most

(56:16):
of the time that's because thewomen won't sit with them, okay?
And there's usually a reasonwhy.
And so for me, and that's not,that's not a rule, that's not
across the board, but if youhave historically had things
that can make you feel unsafearound any kind of energy, if
melanated person, having a whitefacilitator, if you have trauma
in your lineage, Or you weregrown in this, you know, you

(56:38):
grew up in the States with a lotof systemic oppressive systems
that you were around that youexperienced, then your physical
body cannot feel safe and youdon't even know it because you
haven't felt safe your wholelife, but that's not, it's
looking at what can you control?

(56:58):
In finding a safe space for youto the best of your ability,
what has happened in the past?
Consider, like, the times youdidn't advocate for yourself,
that you thought, Oh, well, theyknow what they're doing.
You will always learn that thehard way.
In psychedelic spaces, too.
Like, oh, well, they know whatthey're doing.
Ta and I would not take anymaster teacher substance when we

(57:19):
facilitated.
Why?
Because we wanted to ensure.
That we knew what was going oneverywhere all at once.
And we developed our spiritual,like psychic skills in the
spaces, doing our own journeywork.
Then we started to.
assist at other people'sjourneys so we could learn how
to work with those gifts so thatwe didn't have to take anything

(57:40):
to connect to them.
The idea you need to consume itthrough your mouth to enter the
space is another constructthat's just not true.
When you've done this work longenough, there were times I would
sit with someone and I, I wouldfeel altered till I walked away
from them.
Cause like you said, I'm veryempathetic, but I didn't know
about that.

(58:00):
And I'm so grateful I learned itmore early on because some of
these Ayahuasca centers aredoing 70, 80 people.
That is horrible for my health.
Now, did I learn how to protectmy energy more?
Yes, but because part of my pathas a facilitator, what I would
have, I, I could at times helpsomeone transmute stuckness and

(58:25):
not necessarily trauma, butancestral stuckness.
I could process through my body,but that meant I could be in a
conversation with you and thensuddenly I would purge.
But it's yours, but I neverlearned how to not, I couldn't
turn it on and turn it off whenit was convenient.
So I had to learn my boundaries.

(58:47):
And so I knew for me that Icould do about 15 people that I
already knew that I alreadytrusted already felt safe with.
So for me to sit, it's because Icurated the group.
I chose them.
I know who my body feels safearound and it's people that have
done enough work that theirenergy is not messy.
Most people do not have anawareness because they haven't

(59:09):
done the work that is requiredto understand.
Like you remember Pigpen fromlike Peanuts, Charlie Brown.
He was the one that like thedust followed him everywhere.
When people are first gettinginto this work, sometimes
they're like Pigpen and theydon't understand that their,
their trauma, their woundingsare just kind of like dusting
everywhere.
Everybody.
But my body responds to thatimmediately.

(59:30):
And a lot of my health thingswas what I was absorbing from my
environment.
And I learned that from one ofmy ceremonies.
Where I felt totally fine,blissed out, great place, a
woman came and sit like laid ona couch behind me and I suddenly
got sick to my stomach.
And I was like, this is weird,how did that just suddenly
change?
So if you're in a ceremony,before you start digging into

(59:54):
what's wrong with me, Get up andgo to the bathroom.
And if the sensations orfeelings fade, it's probably not
yours.
So just that awareness can helpyou shift out of it.
I've watched people lay andsuffer for hours because they
were too close to someone elseand they refused to move.
And they kept trying to say, butI don't know what's wrong.

(01:00:15):
I need to figure out what'swrong with me.
No, you just need 12 feet awayfrom people.
You just need to be over therein the corner.
What after I learned that Istayed as far away from the
group as was permitted.
And then I had incredibleexperiences and I would stay
away from the group for thefirst like three hours.
Then I would read, you know, I'dmove in after I'd done my own

(01:00:35):
work.
Cause I'm not here to processfor you.
I wish I would have known that15 years ago because I I've had
people go to some of theselarger journeys and experiences
and see demons and darkness andscary stuff.
And it wasn't even theirs, butthey're trying to integrate it
when really they're trying Theywere just perceiving way too

(01:00:58):
much for their system at onetime.
And so that's how it came inversus if they would have just
gone outside, gone to thebathroom, gotten some space,
advocated for themselves.
It, it wouldn't turn into thiskind of like scary mind thing.
I'm going to back you up on thata little because I was in my

(01:01:19):
second journey.
There was a place where I had, Iwant to say finished the work
because I did go, kind of goback in.
I could feel myself consent tocome out and for a reason, I
didn't know what it was at thetime.
But I learned later it wassomeone was processing something
and they were a person close tome and they, I, I.

(01:01:40):
They needed support and a partof me agreed like okay I'm gonna
pull out of this and I willsupport you now I could feel
what they were feeling and Icould tell I needed to be a sort
of like grounding place orenergy I stood next to them just
standing.
I didn't touch him.
I didn't talk to him.
I knew what I was doing, but itwas Fascinating for me because I

(01:02:03):
looked around the room and Icould see When what she was
doing hit other people.
I've done work with myselfbecause I work with people.
So I'm learning how to use thatempathetic empath sort of thing
to be able to tune into people'sbodies and help them.
So I've been building thatmuscle for a long time.
I know when it's someone else'sthat's hitting me most of the

(01:02:23):
time, sometimes it surprises me,but when it hit other people and
they were in the medicine, Icould see them kind of like
raise up and they would justnaturally, they, they just
started gravitating over towardswhere it was and wailing and
sobbing along with them.
And I was just like, stop, like,this isn't yours.
So you need to go like back up,back up.

(01:02:47):
And I just think that's, that'ssomething to be aware of if you
are empathetic.
Okay, my next question is, andthis one's from me.
So I see.
See ya.
Because I have also been raisedin religion and left religion,
and that's a place where you seea lot of cultural teachings, I
guess, happen.
I've also been in a naturalhealth care, which is where you

(01:03:09):
see a lot of cultural teachingsand rules.
I'm, I have an awareness ofdifferent groups of people and
the cultures that they createwithin cultures.
What I have learned is one thingthat I see in people that do a
lot, sit with plant teachers orare open to going into altered
states in order to have aspiritual life is there is

(01:03:34):
definitely some spiritualbypassing.
And I think there also is someaddiction that is called going
into the medicine or sittingwith the teachers.
But really is addiction.
I have been in places and withpeople that I love, I love,
love, love, but I just wish itwas called what it was where we,

(01:03:55):
where something is taken, butthen something else and
something else and somethingelse is taken.
And pretty soon like hoppy is,is a thing that I have heard
many shaman use, but it also hasnicotine in it as a load of
nicotine.
So people will take it like oncea day for spiritual health and
then pretty soon they're takingit every 20 minutes.

(01:04:17):
And I'm like, can we please justcall this?
Addiction.
How can you manage that spacewhere there can be bypassing or
there can be addiction or therecan be truly sitting with the
teachers and maybe doing stufflike copying or taking
microdosing?
What's the difference betweenthat and addiction or bypassing?

(01:04:37):
So there's a book by Gabor Metecalled the realm of hungry
ghosts.
I recommend anyone read it orlisten to it.
And I like how he says it inthat book that addiction is.
When there's long termdetrimental consequence.
So what that could mean is ifsomeone's doing hape every day
it's destroying the lining ofyour nose.

(01:05:00):
If you're talking all the timevery clogged and the times that
I, like I joke that hape is likea cosmic cocaine.
Now in the jungle they do hapeall day every day, like they do.
It's a part of their culture.
And do I see anything wrong withit?
No, it does have a lot ofnicotine.
Coffee has a lot of caffeine.

(01:05:20):
Like, I, I don't have anyproblem with people choosing to
do what they're doing or whythey're doing it.
For me, And the people Isurround myself with, it's a
constant practice of how is thisserving me?
Is it still serving me now?
How has it served me up untilnow?
I'm someone that loves tobacco.
If I could smoke cigarettesevery single day, I would

(01:05:41):
absolutely do it.
I don't even know the last timeI had one.
Last year maybe I had one.
But what I know is that goesagainst my long term desire for
my body, my health, and myvitality.
Right?
Tobacco is a grounding plant.
That's also what is in Hapé.
A lot of them.
Not all of them.
But a lot of them are in Hapé.
A tobacco, nicotine, differentplants and shrubs and, and

(01:06:04):
things, right?
And then they use mapacho inceremony, which is a tobacco.
So, if we remove any judgment ofsomething being an addiction,
good for us, bad for us, and wemerely say, what is my intention
with my life?
What do I want to know, do, be,or understand?
Is this behavior, choice,person, habit, Putting me in

(01:06:27):
alignment, taking me away fromthat alignment, how far, and can
I accept that?
Because I also watch with Hapé,people are overworking with it
to ground because they'reuncomfortable with feelings and
emotions in their body.
But then you are forcing abypass, because in the jungle,

(01:06:50):
they don't work with Hapé to getout of emotions.
It's like having tea, you know,like it's more of like a
ceremonial, it's more of aritual.
That is a part of day to daylife.
When you start using it becauseyou need to feel grounded, it's
a compensation.
How do we get to groundingwithout like it just within our
own felt sense?

(01:07:11):
For me, the second I feel like Ineed something is how I know I
need a break.
When I first stopped smokingcigarettes on a daily basis, I
never decided to stop.
It's because I recognized whatit was serving.
And I actually sunk so deep intogratitude for tobacco that I was
like, holy cow, I've beenconditioned that cigarette

(01:07:32):
smoking kills people.
For me, it saved my life.
There were years that it was theonly deep breath I could take.
It was the only way to step outof the toxic environments I was
working at, or in, or my firstmarriage, or whatever.
It gave me enough space to beokay for a minute.
And when I started to reallyunderstand that, then I wrote a

(01:07:53):
letter to tobacco and I said, ifI'm going to write to tobacco,
like it's a person and thank itfor all of the times it spent
with me, that it was there forme when no one else was when
nothing else was when I didn'thave anywhere to live, when I
didn't know how I was going tocome back from something or
survive, but that it was timefor our relationship to change.

(01:08:13):
Because we were dying together,right?
Tobacco's dried.
I was drying.
I was dying in my existence.
And so when I got into healthand fitness, cause I actually
was a personal trainer and didinfomercials and totally flipped
to a health conscious lifestyle.
I then got tobacco plants thatwere alive.

(01:08:34):
And I said, now, instead ofsitting and smoking you when
you're dead and I'm dying, we'regoing to sit and connect and
breathe together and breathelife in together.
Because when I exhale, thatgives you life and when you
exhale, it gives me life.
So it was changing the dynamicof the relationship.
So it's a, it's a questionreally for each person to ask
themselves.

(01:08:55):
For me, I am not going tosurround myself with people that
use substances.
I am.
It's just not, I'm looking forus to be able to connect and
grow together.
And if there's a codependencyversus an interdependency, it
just has me change places,whether it's alcohol, whether

(01:09:16):
it's caffeine, whether it'swhatever, it's that I want to be
surrounded by people that arecontinually consensual and
asking their body, how do youfeel about this?
How are you doing?
You know, that's the differencefor me.
That is just so beautiful.
That's so beautiful.
I love the way you said that.

(01:09:37):
Caffeine definitely can be thatway.
I have been able to, I stayedaway from caffeine and coffee.
It was like the evil devilkiller of adrenal glands,
according to what I knew.
And now, I don't have caffeinevery often.
often anymore because I don'treally need it, but I had

(01:09:58):
problems with my craniosacralfluid and having some caffeine
helped so much.
And as it turned out, the formin espresso or coffee was one of
the very best things for helpingthe literal sustainability of my
nervous system.
And I had to come to the sameagreement with caffeine and with
espresso like, okay, how can Iwork with you?

(01:10:21):
How can you work with my body?
What sources do I need to getthat are cleaner than others?
And, and why is that specific tome?
And that conversation is just anentirely different informed
conversation.
Mm hmm.
Even, I said that so well.
I love coffee.
I'm one of those people that Butmy rule is the second I feel

(01:10:44):
like I need it, that's the signfor a break and I stop
immediately cold turkey.
Because it's, I, it, to me itstarts to be that Gollum energy,
that my precious.
If it's something that impactsmy mood, if I don't have it, I
am codependent on it for, for mysustainability.
Now, If I get into thatawareness and I know like, yes,

(01:11:05):
I know and today this, this I'mchoosing to do it for the energy
is different, but it's abouthaving that conscious awareness.
But typically if I wake up andit's the same with alcohol, it's
the same with like, I, I think Ihad the last time I had a drink
was maybe like six weeks ago,two months ago, whatever it was.
It's the same with anything Iput in my body.

(01:11:25):
Sugar.
I have the, the, I have this notaddiction, but we'll say I
really love these gummy bearsfrom Trader Joe's, these sour
Swedish fish gummy things.
But the second I woke up, Oh,the, like the devil.
Okay.
Now societally, we wouldn't callthat bad unless you're in health
and nutrition and fitness.

(01:11:46):
Right.
But my body, I like, I reached apoint that I woke up in the
middle of the night craving it.
I was like, Oh no, nope.
See that's already telling menow that it's got its hooks in
me.
So it's the sign to stopactually.
So anytime I feel that hungryghost like Gabor Mete says that
it's, you can't fill that.

(01:12:08):
So the second you start to eator consume relationships or love
or sex or substances to fillsomething.
That is because you refuse tofeel something, right?
And so that was for me when Ijust said, I'm gonna remove the
good or bad.
Because what I actually foundout, my body hates stevia and
agave.

(01:12:28):
Hates! Not in every delivery ofit, but in most products that
have it, that are healthy.
I get nauseous or I get aheadache.
And if I would have not had theattunement in tri in, I did
elimination diets.
I mean, to figure out all myhealth stuff, I had to.
And if you listen to the, youknow, episode one, the first
part of this, I talk more, a bitmore about it.

(01:12:49):
But if I was attached to, yeah,but this is healthy.
Versus something is notharmonious in my system.
So what's changed, who'schanged, or what, you know,
what's going on?
Because I also went through aperiod of always trying to make
it this deeper esoteric thing.
Dug into it for three monthsjust to find out it was a
protein powder, or nutritional,nutritional supplement that had

(01:13:13):
stevia extract in it, that wassuper processed that my body
hated.
It wasn't processing it well.
You know, so not everything issome deeper Like, situation, but
again, if you don't learn thelanguage of your body, you don't
know the difference, the nuance,and now I can take one bite of
food, and for any reason, if my,if I feel resistant to it, I

(01:13:35):
will not eat it.
Period.
Now, Ta has, he can eat a lotmore, he doesn't have near as
sensitive as a system of me.
Cough, cough.
But it, I don't need to knowwhy.
I take a bite, if I feel anyresistance, I just stop eating,
that was a commitment to myself.
That solves so many problems ifyou have a sensitive system.

(01:13:59):
Thank you for sharing.
Solves and.
It can be annoying sometimes totry to figure out what the heck
to eat.
But it's better than eating it,forcing it, telling yourself
it's healthy and it should beokay and then feeling terrible
for hours or days.

(01:14:19):
I have just a few morequestions.
Another one and I want to berespectful of your time.
Thank you so much for for givingus.
Your time in extra amounts.
I appreciate it.
Question from one of thereaders.
Well, from one question from oneof the listeners is if you go to
a psychedelic experience and youhave a really good experience,

(01:14:42):
how, what is a healthy or what'sa healthy way to talk to your
children about it?
If they're teenagers, like Ihave been in, this is coming
from a man that I know and he'shad some really good experiences
and.
He has teenagers that haveexperienced some depression,

(01:15:02):
some anxiety, some other thingslike that and he doesn't want
them to set their minds againstit, but is unsure of what should
be told them and how to createthat boundary because I, who
knows when they are healthy ornot healthy for the brain
development and just for, youknow, how you reference that.

(01:15:23):
Yeah, there are more parentsthat are, I would say, allowing
and supporting their kids towork with psychedelics in a
healing capacity more than everbefore, or ketamine, when it's
reaching the point of, well, areyou going to medicate them with
antidepressants?
Which I have adult friends whohave been on antidepressants,
anti psych meds, whatever, sincethey're teens, that as adults,

(01:15:46):
as adults are disabled becauseof the side effects of these
medications.
So this is as a parent, if itwas me, which I don't have
biological children.
I have worked with a lot ofparents.
And so I can only relay myconversations with them and the
dialogue.
And what if I was a parent, whatI know about psychedelics and 15
years of being in the work?

(01:16:06):
In many of the cultures in SouthAmerica, they start working with
children at 3 years old, 4 yearsold.
The women often, even inpregnancy after the first or
really after the secondtrimester, Trimester will even
start to introduce once the babyis really established which for
them is typically after sixmonths that because that you
know first Quarter that firsttrimester that first kind of

(01:16:28):
like point they tend to not onthe flip side of that I know
women who microdose throughtheir entire pregnancy now what
I do that probably not what Irecommend it No But I just know
people that have right just tosay that and so when it comes to
kids when it comes to teenagersI was, I started, you know,

(01:16:49):
exploring psychedelics when Iwas 17 years old.
16, 15, you know, it's liketried pot when I was 15.
Like, so to me, this idea ofthat we shouldn't talk to him or
what's appropriate, you know,your kids.
What is their mental capacityfor conversation?
Be as honest as possible,because if they don't learn from

(01:17:10):
you, it's on Netflix, it's onYouTube, it's on, this is in
public domain.
And so when you, just like wetalked earlier about, you know,
like telling kids like wherethey could drink and where not
to drink and things to watch forand concerns and like I had a
friend where their daughter wentto a party, had some mushrooms,

(01:17:30):
right?
She's 16.
Because she had already heardher parents talk about set and
setting and the sacred, reverentaspects and the other parts, she
immediately recognized why shewould not do that again.
And she came back to them, theydidn't know at the time, but she
told them after.
She said, so I ended up doingmushrooms with friends this
weekend and now I understandwhat you meant by set in setting

(01:17:54):
because I could see that thiswas not the right place for this
type of thing just based off ofhow my friends were reacting and
I guess someone had achallenging experience.
And so if they had not alreadybeen talking about awareness of
their experiences and justsharing their experiences and
having that honesty.
Would she have even recognizedit in that ceremony?

(01:18:16):
Could she have had a traumaticexperience?
Could she have, you know, like,who knows the, I had the honor
of holding space for a friendwhere the first time we did
mushrooms, we had done ittogether.
She had a horrible experience.
I, she jokes that she was myfirst client because I was 17
and she had a terribleexperience and I didn't know

(01:18:37):
what to do cause she thought shewas dying and all the dark,
heavier parts.
But we have kids that are, theyhave access to these things.
Your kids already know how toget to it or could through, they
would know one person, the kid,they could ask to find it if
they wanted to, right?
The question then becomes what,why, like really going through

(01:18:57):
the same way you createquestions for a facilitator
questionnaire.
What are your concerns intelling them?
What are your concerns in whatthey might do or not do?
What would be the concerns innot telling them and making an
informed decision?
You know, it's like kids arematuring in different ways now
that the kid that I was at 17 isnot how most 17 year olds are

(01:19:19):
now.
I was already in an apartment.
I was already working full time.
It was just a different time,but that's the kind of kid I
was.
I was like, give it to mestraight.
Like, let, like, I want thetruth.
Let me make my decisions.
Cause I'm going to do what Iwant anyway.
That's how I was.
And I still did listen though,because I was very in tune with
the yes in my body and the no inmy body.

(01:19:40):
And so it really comes down toyour kid.
And if they have depression andall this stuff, there's no way I
wouldn't tell my kids about it.
I would just say, now this isn'ta cure.
I would educate them in everypossibility too.
Because if they're 16 now,they're two years from 18.
That's not far.
And if it was me and I had achild where I see

(01:20:02):
antidepressants like I see acast on a broken arm.
It is a great support system fora little while, but it can't
stay there without degrading oraffecting and atrophying other
muscles.
And that's what happens toemotional muscles in the nervous
system.
If we just keep casting it, thenthey actually weaken from it.
And so we have to have otherplans and tools and support.

(01:20:25):
So I'm not against medicatingkids.
I couldn't speak to it cause Ihaven't faced it personally, But
I could tell you that if that'swhat I was facing, I would be as
willing to explore in the rightset and setting and container
for them, someone they feel safewith, someone they trust, or if
it was me, as, and even morereadily, than I am.

(01:20:49):
A lot of the antidepressantsbecause of what I know they do
to the brain.
We have research and evidenceand all of that.
And if I'm going to contrastfrom all the elders and people I
know where their childrenstarted working with
psychedelics very, very young.
It made it different, but theonly time I really saw it be a
problem is that If a childbecame so aware, so young, they

(01:21:14):
lost their innocence a littlebit.
They became so aware ofthemselves in the world that
they would bypass more becausethey understood it up here, but
they had not had the lifeexperience to, to understand it
in, in their whole being.
And so that's the only time I'veseen it really be quote unquote,
a problem in development isbecause they develop so

(01:21:34):
different than their peers.
It's isolating.
Because it's, you're giving theman awareness that no one else
around them has.
So they can't relate to otherkids.
So for me, 17 would kind of bemy minimum, like as an
initiation into 18, like that'swhere I feel is what tools and
skills can I give them.

(01:21:54):
And then that is actually morepart of an initiatory
ritualistic thing where I takethem to a shaman or healer.
I take them to somewhere whereit's legal, right?
I remove the things that mightbe the fears.
So, it really, I don't know thekid, right?
Yeah, I have two more questions.
So, one was talking on that samevein about wondering about

(01:22:19):
medic, about interactions withother medications.
This is coming from a womanthat's studying neuroscience and
she sees other medications ordrugs effects on the brain and
MRI.
And, she's like, how do you knowwhat not to take in order to To
go into a journey with AYA orpsychedelics or any, any of

(01:22:41):
those things.
How do you know what you shouldbe on or not on?
And if this is too long of aquestion, do you have any
resources that people couldcheck?
It's not something they shouldbe asking their facilitator.
Asking the facilitator for sure,because it's going to vary
dependent on the substance.
Now, what I'm going to say, I'mnot a doctor.
This is not medical advice.
This is not recommendation oranything.

(01:23:02):
What I will, what I will tellyou Or what I will share from my
experience is that somethinglike ayahuasca has way more
contraindications and dangerousinteractions, potentials, than
other master teachers likemushrooms or like huachuma,
which is also known as SanPedro.
Ayahuasca, because of the brewitself, with, say, anti

(01:23:25):
psychotics, Can be dangerous andcreate serotonin syndrome and
same with MDMA, right?
So those are kind of our twomain with ayahuasca and MDMA.
Those are going to be the oneswith the most medical concerns
when it comes to medications.
If you have medical concerns,then you need to go to someone

(01:23:47):
that's actually worked withthose things.
Ta and I have worked with peoplethrough psychosis.
Who no one would work with.
We understood that a lot ofpeople's mental health
situations are because of theirlife situations.
And that psychosis is actuallyalmost like the body doing

(01:24:07):
control alt delete reset.
Like we used to do for ourcomputers to reboot the whole
system.
It's that they, they, it'soverheating.
And so it freaks out, resets,reboots, and all they really
need is a safe space to lose it.
And a week of recovery.
Being well fed, well nurtured,and well loved.

(01:24:28):
Now, we don't do that workpresently, and I don't know that
I'll ever return to it, justbecause financially, it's really
challenging to support people inthat capacity, because they need
so much, that how do you chargesomething that's accessible,
because usually they can't work,and it's just very complex.
But there's a doctor in Oregon,Her name's Dr.

(01:24:48):
Erica Zelfand.
She does lots of trainings.
So if you're already a medicalprofessional, she has trainings
where you can go learn aboutcontraindications and
medications and psychedelics.
And they're like 300 bucks.
Like go just grab the coursethat works for you.
You know, cause that's gonna,when someone's medically
trained, you have to feed themonkey mind for you to find a

(01:25:08):
safe space.
Because, you know, sometimeswhat people are trying to do is
Overpower their mind.
I'm like work with it.
Give your brain what it needs.
Give your mind what it needs tofeel safe.
And then find the facilitatorthat can speak the language so
that you can actually allowyourself to be guided.
Because you're gonna find, somepeople will tell you, you can't

(01:25:33):
be on any medications.
Dr.
Erica Zelfand had the firstgovernment approved psilocybin
program.
She is actually in, she'sactually working in a practice.
She's actually working withpeople that are still on
antidepressants with psilocybin.
Specifically, it's more safewith antidepressants and she

(01:25:53):
says what Tawna used to say, youjust have to usually give people
more because, you know, the, theantidepressant is cutting the
highs and the lows, which meansthat the psychedelic itself can
get cut on the high and the low,so you just might have to give
them more, but that there's noinnate need for it.
Danger, with the mixturenecessarily, at least with
antidepressants, MDMA is adifferent story.

(01:26:14):
It's more likely to causeserotonin syndrome, and same
with ayahuasca.
But, I know people that wentdown to the jungle and lied,
still on antidepressants andeven antipsychotics and did
ayahuasca, because they said,I'm going to kill myself if this
doesn't work, so what differencedoes it make if I die?
Right?
And they lied and went, becausewe wouldn't work with them.

(01:26:35):
And they had a huge breakthroughand changed their life and
whatever.
So, it's that, this is where,going back to that sovereignty,
that rad that radicalresponsibility to say that.
If you're medically trained,then you're probably gonna
wanna, instead of worrying abouta shaman, you're probably gonna
connect more with someone that'sworked, worked in, maybe,

(01:26:59):
psychedelic spaces more, but hasthat deeper understanding of the
biochemistry of it.
Of the neuro impacts.
The recommendations I have, Dr.
Erica Zelfand and Sean Wells.
He's a dietitian, biochemist.
He's one of the world's,probably the biggest formulator

(01:27:19):
for supplements and everything.
He does a lot of great sharingon some of the neurological
aspects, contraindications,herbs, other neuro support after
and even before experiences, andthen stacks for after to help
replenish.
And while you're in a heightenedneuroplastic state ways that you

(01:27:41):
can actually extend that orsupport that more.
So, you know, the people are outthere, I would say like at the
condor approach, we're talkingWe're looking at the big
picture, right?
We want to bring all the puzzlepieces to the table.
But if you have, we basicallywant you to bring all those
parts and pieces.
We can speak to them, but if youwant a deeper training.

(01:28:02):
Erika Zellfand has so manyincredible courses that you can
take if you're more of thatstyle of learner that resonates
for you.
For us, it's, us is like, okay,we know all these cool concepts,
but how do we understand itthrough the emotional body?
We have different layers oflogic we break down from body
logic to construct to mind tospirit.

(01:28:24):
And so there's, you havedifferent ways of understanding
things, right?
And so that's where you canbring everything to the table.
And because of Todd's not onlymedical background, but also his
fitness and health background,he did personal training and
nursing.
So it's like a really great wayto bring all the parts together,

(01:28:44):
because I would say I'm not anexpert of any of them, but
instead of going 50 feet intoone, I went about 15 feet into a
lot because for my own healingjourney, I had to, and that gave
me the ability to At least, if Idon't know the answer, direct
you to someone that that istheir life's work and what they
study.
And so that's really, I seemyself as the intersection of

(01:29:06):
science and mysticism.
Really that bridge from theancient technology to the future
technology, the ancient wisdomto the future wisdom.
And so whatever questions itmight be, if we don't know the
answer, we know someone that atleast has researched or studied
it more.
But at the end of the day, withthese experiences.

(01:29:28):
Yeah, at the end of the day withthese experiences, you learn
that all of these humanconstructs we assign to them
don't actually mean anything.
You know, and so for me, we cantalk about all the cool concepts
of the mind.
We can break it down for you sothat it quote unquote makes
sense just so that you can trustyourself enough to let it all go

(01:29:49):
and feel.
That really is the summary ofwhy to do it or why you do it.
Oh, beautifully said.
Okay, last question.
And this comes from a single momand she's rather petite.
So, her question was, I'minterested in doing it, she is a
very in tune person, and wantsto start gently, but does not

(01:30:14):
have a lot of money to see afacilitator that, you know, may
be able to hold her hand and gothrough it, and also doesn't
want to do anything illegal, soshe's wondering how you can get
ahold of substances that arelegal that you can sit with as a
teacher.
What you're teaching me to referit to and also how you know what

(01:30:37):
dosage like to start is thatpoint her in a direction or do
you just suggest there's don'tdo that.
There's not really a way to doit legally because here's the
thing.
There's a lot of gray.
So it ends up being how willingsomeone is to rationalize the
legality or the boundarieswithin the gray.

(01:30:57):
So that's the only thing I canreally say there is like, break
the law to your comfort.
Like, because even in placeswhere it's decriminalized, like,
you know, parts of Ann Arbor,Michigan, and some of these
other places, decriminalized isnot legal.
I think Ann Arbor might actuallybe legal.

(01:31:18):
Legalized now?
Anyway, laws are changing.
But here's the thing.
Okay, so it's legal, but youcan't buy it.
But it could be a gift ifsomeone sells it with a healing
session.
Or, well, it's illegal to growit, but you can buy it.
Like, there's just, there's allthese super weird things.
So, if, one, don't, from myexperience, If you don't have

(01:31:43):
the resources for support, don'tcrack yourself open because you
can't afford the support if ithappens.
That means you need to getyourself, start having a savings
fund so you can actually hire anintegration coach to help you
prepare and help you integratein case.
Because sometimes people go intoit and it's the only 1, 000 they
have or 2, 000 to go on aretreat and they have so much
expectation like this has towork.

(01:32:05):
That's why it doesn't.
Because it's not how it works.
You know, and so my thing wouldbe if someone says they don't
really have money to paysomeone, then you start to make
that something you save for, forwhen it's time.
And then my preparation would bewith something like Ca
Impathogenics.
It's legal.
It's called Kana.

(01:32:27):
So Ca Impathogenics is a companythat I trust, that I know the
owner and that great product.
So Kana is known as Nature'sAntidepressant.
So you still don't want to be onSSRIs, please read the
directions on the website, butKana is a totally legal plant.
They are making microdoses,which means in a small stature

(01:32:49):
person, I would start with halfof one of their chews.
Because at first, just feelingthe energy in your body, it's
not hallucinogenic, you're notgoing to see anything.
But for more sensitive bodiedpeople, just taking something
like Kana and doing a meditationpractice or a yoga practice or
go for a walk can be.

(01:33:11):
The best preparation for alarger experience later.
You are starting to build thatawareness.
So you're preparing for a biggerevent.
It's like training for theOlympics, you know what I mean?
Like, you're gonna put your repsin and get comfortable with the
uncomfortable and increase yourawareness.
Do something like the CondorApproach.
Like, I wish everyone would do30 days of the Condor Approach

(01:33:32):
book.
before they did any psychedelicexperiences and then 30 days
after.
So when you buy it on Amazon,it's like 12 for the book and it
has access to a free course.
Get proficient.
Don't just read it.
Live it.
Then, when you make aninvestment into a retreat, it's
far more likely that you havedeveloped the strategies and the

(01:33:56):
support for what you cancontrol, okay?
Because then that way, even ifyou, even if no psychedelic
effect happened, you will havedone enough self awareness to
know that that was the lesson,that all of that buildup that
you had, like you needed toprocess all this trauma and do
all this stuff.
One of my biggest breakthroughs?

(01:34:17):
Was that I needed to stopbreaking through things.
One of my biggest breakthroughswas if you keep digging in the
dirt, you'll find it.
It's time to create and look tothe stars.
Because I was trying to fixeverything that was wrong.
But I'd done enough work in mylife.
I'd done enough of support andtherapy and all of the things.
What I needed was to learn howto welcome joy.

(01:34:38):
What I needed to learn was howdo you increase pleasure?
I didn't know pain free waspossible.
Now, I don't live pain free allthe time.
But in contrast, when I firstgot into this work, I was just
trying to get it to suck less.
But the thing that's crazy is asit started to suck less, it
started to actually be kind ofgood.
And I was like, holy shit.

(01:34:59):
But if pain was from zero to 10,10 is the worst suck.
Can't get out of bed.
Can't live my life.
And now I go under a five.
That means there's less suckthan more suck.
What does that mean?
I had not even conceived that.
I was like, what, what, what,what do you do with no pay?

(01:35:20):
Like, I don't, I didn't know.
My work And that shift inperspective does come from the
little, like, building themuscles, like, doing the Condor
Approach book, checking in withyourself, taking things like
that, learning breath work,learning all of the other
things.
Instead, and that makes lifebetter now.
As well as later instead of justyou can't skip steps till a big

(01:35:43):
experience and not exactlybecause you don't have exactly.
Yeah.
You don't go run a marathontomorrow, you train for it.
And so what if in approachingthese master teachers that can
be very powerful, you train forit.
You prepare for it in heart,mind, body, and soul.
Like if I went tomorrow andtried to go to the Himalayas and
go to the, to Mount Everest, Iwouldn't, I wouldn't make it no

(01:36:05):
matter how much willpower I hadbecause there are physical
limitations that requirewillpower.
Working with it.
And so the opportunity really isfor people, especially if you
don't have money, then youAbsolutely better prepare for
when you do pay more for anexperience Because you won't
need as much coaching probably,you know You could just have a

(01:36:26):
check in or a group coachingprogram versus a one to one or
maybe you can just join anonline No, you're good If you
wanted to learn meditation andyou just waited until you could
go on a big retreat in India YouBut didn't practice meditating
before then, it's going to behell.
That's going to be hell.
And it's not like they're goingto look at you and be like,

(01:36:48):
Sure, I can fix you in oneweekend.
That's not how anything is.
It's learning to sit in it.
So you don't, I think, you don'tgo to journeys to get out of
something.
We might.
I think we're getting out ofsomething.
I thought we want to, yeah, Iwent cause I wanted to know why
I wasn't healing and what wasreally happening.

(01:37:09):
And I wanted out of that illnessbadly.
But what I learned is with allthings that make a difference,
it's going in, but going in in asafe way with support and
building your muscles.
Well and this brings us back tohow we kicked off the first part
of part one, right?
Right.
People are now, they've heardthese generalizations about

(01:37:32):
psychedelics, who would do it,why would they do it.
Now everyone's hearing that it'sthis miraculous thing, and they
want to get out of sufferingfaster.
My friends, that's not how itworks.
Because it's actually, how do Ibe with what's here and stop
suffering in it.
And it's not a magic pill.
It's not a silver bullet.

(01:37:52):
Do, have I seen miracles?
Absolutely.
But as one shaman said down inthe jungle, one ayahuasca hero,
not everyone who heals fromcancer survives it.
You healing does not mean that,you know, we have this idea of
what we, where we want to be,but our attachment to it is the
problem.

(01:38:12):
And you're not probably, Goingto completely step into all of
that knowing all that unravelingin one night And even if you
could that's usually whensomeone can't function when they
come out because they said Ijust want to get through all Of
it and what that actually meantis that their whole world comes
crashing down on them.
Yeah Cole, thank you for sharingyour wisdom and your experience.

(01:38:40):
It will help a lot more peoplethan just You and I, because
these questions are real andthey're all around us.
Thank you for the work that youdo in integration.
If people want to work with youor learn more, I know we've
discussed they can go on Amazonand get your book called The
Condor Approach, correct?
And then is that the name ofyour website as well?
What's the best way to get moreof your work?

(01:39:01):
You I mean, at this point, ifyou send a courier pigeon in a
smoke signal, you're going tofind me, but absolutely the
condor approach.
Take 10 grams of mushrooms.
You'll people tell me they seeme in there all the time, so I'm
going to have to start charginglike realm.
I'm gonna have to start havinglike dimension fees because I go
into a lot of people's dreamsand like tell them how to grow
And I'm like, you know, I'minvoicing wrong.

(01:39:22):
I'm doing all this thirddimensional.
This is no wonder I'm tired I'mworking when I'm sleeping, but
no the Condor approach It's nothard to find me.
You have to literally work tonot find me.
If, yeah, I have found that ifit's correct for someone to work
to come work with us, I willcross your path three times in
the first 30 days.

(01:39:42):
You'll suddenly see it real forthe first time.
You never saw me before.
You'll suddenly have someoneelse mention it.
You'll suddenly see the condorapproach book at a friend's
house.
You didn't even know I was doingpsychedelics.
Like if you're hearing the call,you will see the signs of it,
whether it's to explore yourselfdeeper, whether it's to start
supporting others.
Like if you want to change theworld, I want to help you do it.

(01:40:03):
What the offer is depends onwhen you hit me up.
But if you, if you get thatcall, all you have to do is hit
me up because all mushrooms toldme is people are going to be
hearing the call.
You just need to tell them toanswer it.
And I'm like, what does thatmean?
Mushrooms are like, you'llfigure it out.
Like that's at this point, like,That's my existence.
Thankfully and luckily, I'veworked in fortune 100 companies

(01:40:26):
to organic marketing, to bandslike Lincoln park, to music, to
events, to all of theseskillsets between that and
Todd's medical background.
We can actually help peoplebuild a business because we've
done it.
It's not an idea.
It's something that we'veliterally done, something that
I'm passionate about in any waythat I can help someone fully

(01:40:47):
step into this vision, even ifthey're not sure what it looks
like.
together we can figure it out.
I love it.
Cole, thank you so much for yourtime.
And I just look forward to thenext time.
However that goes.
Thank you so much.

(01:41:07):
And we'll see you next time.
I told you it was going to begood.
As some takeaway notes, I wouldsay, number one, doing drugs
with friends is different thanhaving a spiritual journey.
If you're looking for atransformative journey type of

(01:41:29):
experience, it has to do withfinding a facilitator that you
trust, in a setting that is safefor you, and with proper dosage
and follow up integration.
You need to ask questions aboutwhat's going to happen.
And I love that she has freeresources to share for that.
And that she shared so much inthis episode, any of the
followup resources will be inthe show notes.
I've totally got you coveredthere.

(01:41:51):
So just click on that and offyou go.
You also need to know yourselfand what you need in a space.
If you're going to really dropsome of the defenses, drop some
of the stories and go inside.
And it's also very important toset an intention.
for the journey that you'regoing in.
There are differences infacilitators y'all.

(01:42:13):
Going to a foreign country in,going to a foreign country is in
itself not a guarantee of a goodor a bad experience.
So know your people the bestthat you can and ask the most
questions that you can.
It's the people that help createthe experience, the safety that
comes from the people.

(01:42:33):
And that's what you're lookingfor.
Number two, be mindful ofconstant transformational
journeys without follow upintegration.
You can support yourself aheadof time by setting up your
integration and setting up yoursupport afterward to integrate
those delicious morsels of soulfood that you receive.
Cole looks at it like getting inshape with a fitness trainer,

(01:42:54):
not as doing one session andthen thinking you're one and
done healthy.
And I loved that analogy.
Lastly, I loved her thoughts oncodependency.
Versus interdependency.
One is what we want to move awayfrom, from any substance, and
one is just what is.
We are all interdependent andthis is just a beautiful method

(01:43:17):
that can be used, if you sochoose, to help you delve into
your deeper mind and perhapshave a transformational
experience, but ask questions,ask questions, ask questions.
For our next episode, we aregoing to welcome you back to
Body Science and Targeted Help.
for a very important area.
I brought in one of my favoritementors, a fantastic doctor, and

(01:43:42):
just a total badass.
Her name is Dr.
Lindsay Mooma.
She's a chiropractor that ownsTriangle Chiropractic and
Rehabilitation Center in NorthCarolina.
She has so many continuingeducation credit hours because
she studies so many things thatshe literally, Could wallpaper
the walls of her office just soyou know that you're walking

(01:44:03):
down the hall of someone thathas you covered What we are
talking about is one of herspecialties, which is the pelvic
floor so pelvic floor if youthink of it is a series of
muscles that That's at the baseof your pelvis that are designed
to hold your organs in basicallythink of them like a series of
hammocks, muscle hammocks thatare kind of laid and connected

(01:44:26):
inside of each other, theyconnect to the bones, they
connect to each other, theyconnect to other tissues that
you have, those muscles are madeout of the same type of muscle
tissue that your shoulder muscleis, for example, And it can get
injured just like any othermuscle.
It can get trigger points.
It can get weak, have pain.
It can stop working well.
And when that happens, we seeproblems.

(01:44:49):
So we see problems either in theurinary system.
Uh, so many women think it istotally normal to pee your pants
a little.
Forever and ever after you havea baby.
And it's just not true.
It's a sign of dysfunction.
If your pelvic floor cannot holdthat in when you are sneezing or
laughing or jumping or liftingweights, and that affects your

(01:45:11):
hip function, your glutealfunction, it affects your low
back.
It affects everything.
And that's not just for womeneither.
Men can also struggle in thisarea.
Anybody who has had injuries.
For example, being thrown off ofsomething and twisting and
landing funny when you hit yourhip.
Martial arts can do it.
Dirt bike accidents, anythingwhere you hit your tailbone or

(01:45:32):
your pubic bone.
And I think you will befascinated to see.
What can really happen when thisis not doing well, and then what
can really happen when it isagain?
This was a massive piece in myrecovery in getting the function
of my legs back It's somethingthat I focus on now in my clinic
And I basically just drink upall the pelvic floor rehab that

(01:45:54):
I come across so I am happy toshare one of my Water sources
with you in the form of aconstant stream of knowledge and
badassery.
We'll see you next week with Dr.
Lindsay Mooma.

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