August 1, 2023 • 53 mins
Meet democracy and human rights activist Farida Nabourema from Togo, a woman who has been fighting for civil liberties and a democratic government in her homeland since her early teens. Her journey is a testament to resilience and courage, and Farida shares the realities of activism in a patriarchal society heavily influenced by the colonial era, where women's rights are frequently suppressed. Farida gives a first-hand account of the different ways she has rebelled against this oppressive system, including a 'Digital Democracy Program', a creative initiative to utilize technology in the fight for freedom. Listen as Farida explains how this platform, along with others like Bitcoin and Pegases, has helped citizens to raise funds securely.
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Marie Berry (00:04):
Welcome to what the World Will Become, a podcast
about the humans who dedicatetheir lives to building a more
free and just world.
My name is Marie Berry.
I'm a feminist researcher andwriter, and I've spent the
better part of the past 20 yearsresearching and thinking about
how women experience war and itsaftermath.
I've done research in placeslike Rwanda, Bosnia, Kenya,
(00:27):
Nepal and Colombia, and I'veinterviewed hundreds of women
whose lives have been shaped byviolence.
Along the way, I have beenrepeatedly struck by two
simultaneous truths.
The first is that violence isdevastating, leaving those who
survive it with trauma and griefthat can last for years and
even generations.
But the second is that even inthe most bleak and impossible of
(00:50):
situations, there is often agreat beauty, a way that those
who suffer from violence findlove, joy and resilience that
can creatively forge new pathsforward, paths that offer us
profound hope and possibilityfor building a more just and
free world.
On this podcast, I interviewactivists from all across the
(01:11):
world who are forging thesepaths forward in the context of
deep difficulty.
These activists offer us, andoffer me, a blueprint for how we
might build a world that isfree from violence.
The title of this podcast isinspired by abolitionist scholar
Ruth Wilson Gilmore, whoreminded us that quote.
What the world will becomealready exists in fragments and
(01:35):
pieces, experiments andpossibilities.
So please join me in thisseason of what the world will
become to hear stories fromthose whose experiments have
profoundly inspired me.
My hope is, at the end of eachepisode, and indeed the whole
season, you are inspired bythese stories and find small
ways to bring bits of their workinto your own lives.
(01:59):
Hello everyone, my guest todayis Frida Naborrema, a democracy
and human rights activist fromTogo.
Togo is a country of about 8million people in West Africa,
and it has been ruled by thesame family a father and a son
since 1967, making it thelongest running regime in Africa
.
Under current president FahriNukhna Simbe's rule, the country
(02:22):
has engaged in widespreadabuses, restrictions on freedom
of speech and rampant corruption.
Frida has spent her life tryingto counter this repression and
bring democracy to her country.
She is the executive directorof the Togholi Civil League and
her writing has been featured inplaces like the New York Times,
African arguments and Forbes,and her activism has been
(02:44):
celebrated on CNN and PR, in theGuardian, the Economist and
more.
I first met Frida in 2018 whenshe came to the second annual
IGLI Summer Institute for WomenActivists that I convene in
Colorado each summer.
When I met her, it didn't takeme long to realize that she was
a remarkable force.
She is a woman who's weatheredprofound personal difficulties
(03:08):
as a result of her activism, buteverything she has experienced
has instilled in her afierceness and a dedication to
fighting for a more free andjust world for all.
I'm happy to say that Frida hasreturned to every IGLI Summer
Institute since sharing herwisdom with activists from
across the world, and todayFrida is one of the most known
(03:30):
figures in efforts to builddemocracy in Togo and
Francophone West Africa.
As you listen to ourconversation today, I think
you'll quickly understand why,Frida, welcome so much to the
show.
I'm so deeply excited to besitting here with you today,
Farida, and what a joy to beable to have this conversation
(03:52):
with you on InternationalWomen's Day.
I think it's a delight thatneither of us had anything
scheduled for a little bit oftime this morning for me, this
afternoon for you and so it'sjust an honor to get to sit down
with you and talk about whatyou are doing to build a world
that is more free for morepeople.
So welcome to the show andthank you for being here.
Farida Nabourema (04:15):
Thank you so much, Mary, for inviting me.
I am extremely delighted to behere today, especially on a
specific day like this one.
That means a lot for women'sright and social justice across
the globe, so thank you forhaving me Absolutely.
Marie Berry (04:30):
I want to invite you to just start by introducing
yourself and letting everybodywho is listening know a little
bit about who you are and whatsort of work you've been doing.
Farida Nabourema (04:39):
I was born and raised in Togo.
I have been an activist since Iwas a teenager.
I've been fighting to bringdemocracy to my country, togo,
that has been ruled by the oldermilitary regime in Africa.
I co-founded 11 years ago asocial movement called the
former school movement, and thegoal of the movement was to push
(05:03):
Togo's youth and citizens ingeneral to demand accountability
from the military regime ofFonyasinbe and to demand change,
because all we have known sincewe were born has been the same
family in power, and thatauthoritarianism has prevented
our people from enjoying alltheir civil rights and liberties
(05:24):
.
We grew up in an environment ofviolence, where the state's
repression is extremely high,and so, since I was young, all I
have been doing is to fight forsocial justice in Togo and in
Africa as a whole, because Ifeel like the oppression of the
people of Togo are the residuesfrom a colonial system that has
(05:48):
legitimized the use of violenceagainst citizens and that has
made it okay for governments tonot want to be held accountable.
And along the line, I foundedanother organization called the
Togo Lease Civil League, and I'mthe district director of the
Togo Lease Civil League.
Today we are lucky to havepeople working in the Togo Lease
(06:11):
Civil League in three differentcontinents in the US, in Europe
, in Africa.
It's a diaspora-basedorganization funded by Togo
Lease and Exile, hoping to raiseawareness globally about the
dictatorship in Togo, but toalso support local initiatives
on the ground in Togo in termsof civic engagement, women's
(06:34):
rights and rule of law.
Marie Berry (06:36):
In general, it's fantastic and remarkable.
You know the type of workyou've been doing, the amount of
time you've been doing it for,and I know it's really
challenging and difficult work,and so I look forward to kind of
talking to you about some ofthat, and I want to perhaps just
ask you to tell us a little bitabout what it means to grow up
(06:59):
in Togo and what that looks likefor you, for your family, for
women and for Togo Lease peoplemore broadly.
Farida Nabourema (07:05):
I was born under the rule of Ea de
Manasimbe, who died in 2005 whenI was 15 years old, and his
rule is not much different fromthat of his son, but there are
some more particularitiesbecause he came from this
generation of tyrants, wherethey really promoted themselves
as semi-guards and wanted thecitizens to be in complete
(07:29):
adoration of them.
I grew up in a country wherestudents in the public school
system were obliged to trainevery single Wednesday afternoon
and weekend to dance for thepresident, to sing his name, to
praise his name, and there werecompetitions among schools in
(07:50):
terms of who would better praiseand hail the president.
And unfortunately, this was notjust limited to the students.
It was actually the case of thesmall public servants in Togo.
Teachers, police officers andmany other small servants had to
also learn to dance, wearingparty uniforms and performing
(08:13):
for the president to his glory.
And on Sundays, people would goto the headquarters of the
ruling party and the presidentwould sit like a semi-guard,
wearing always wearing blacksunglasses and admiring the
people, praising and singing himand dancing for him.
And every morning, people haveto line up from his house to the
(08:35):
presidency to clap for him whenhe's going to work and when
he's returning and whenever hetravels, people, every morning,
every single morning, and whenhe travels, people have to line
up from his the presidency tothe airport to clap for him, to
tell him goodbye and say flight.
And when he returns, peoplehave to also line up from the
airport to his house to welcomehim back to the country.
(08:58):
Apparently, he's the father ofthe nation, he's our daddy and
he traveled to bring us goodiesand bring good luck and
investment to the country.
So we live in a system wherethere was a huge personality
call and that personality callcame with very high experience,
mistakes were not too narratedand students a pedestrian can be
(09:21):
shot dead because he didn'tstop when the police asked him
to stop, because thepresidential car is going to
pass, or a student can getarrested and his family are
arrested and killed because herefused to perform for the
president, because he's notfeeling well.
So it was an atmosphere ofterror and fear and by 7 pm each
(09:41):
day, the government unleashedsoldiers from the military and
there was a special unit,soldiers units, a special force
and they were called there's anickname for them they were
called the savages.
And these guys were savages.
Yes, they were released.
They had big beards, theylooked very unkept, very scary,
(10:05):
showing all the toxicmasculinity of scary men, and
they were unleashed on thestreets every night from 7 pm to
keep people in their homes andif, by any mistake, you find
yourself in the streets and theyfind you, you may get severely
beaten or killed andunfortunately, one of my cousins
(10:27):
was their victims.
He was so severely beaten thatas a result of that, he lost his
mind.
He never recovered from it andeventually he died a couple of
years later.
And they are countless of youngTogolese people who get killed
that way, and it was anatmosphere of terror.
You can't even see the name ofthe president in your home.
(10:47):
So in that context, believe meor not, when I had them died in
2005, the people of Togo were sooverjoyed they were celebrating
.
It was like I always tellpeople millennials from my
generation who are fanatics ofHarry Potter that the only
comparable thing to Voldemort inreal life was the Adema, and I
(11:10):
was reading Harry Potter as ateenager living in Togo, and
when I realized that in thatbook people couldn't see the
name of Voldemort, automatically, I'm like we can see the name
of Eya Dema too, and the wholetime I was reading the book by
portraying Voldemort in my headas Eya Demanyasimbe, because
every single thing that wasdescribed about Voldemort
(11:31):
corresponded to Eya Dema.
But his son did a coup on theevening of his death and what we
thought were going to be an endto decades of suffering and
abuse actually became anightmare, because the following
month there was a completeattack on civilians.
According to the United Nations,over 500 people were killed in
(11:54):
the aftermath of Eya Dema'sdeath, following the elections
that his son organized andwanted to keep himself in power,
and the numbers on the groundare far more than that, and I
remember there were two studentsin my high school that also
died, didn't come back to schoollater on because they died in
the police.
Repression and the deed.
(12:14):
That reminds us that there is acontinuity of dictatorship.
It's not because Eya Dema isthere to die.
The repression and the abuseand the terror is going to end,
and his son wanted to send us avery strong message that he is
capable of being as brutal, ifnot more, than his death, and
unfortunately he has been doingthat for the past 17 years.
(12:36):
He's now the longest servingpresident in West Africa.
His father was there for 38years.
He's been there for 17 yearsand counting, and the regime has
been in power in Togo for awhole of 55 years.
Marie Berry (12:49):
Wow, it's amazing to just begin to kind of get a
glimpse, or really wrap my ownhead around, what it would be
like to be forced to applaud thepresident's car every morning,
or to dance for his glory, asyou put it, and to be terrorized
(13:13):
in the evenings by the savages,and I think you talked about
the kind of whole cult ofpersonality around the president
that then didn't change withthe arrival of his son.
I mean, this is a reallystunning and challenging example
, I think, of what it means likefor so many people who live
(13:34):
under authoritarian rule aroundthe world, and while the kind of
specific characteristics ofauthoritarian leaders does
differ to some extent, the kindof essence of the hierarchy of
those that have power and accessand the rest is so similar.
(13:54):
I mean, the whole goal of ourconversation today is to really
focus, then, on what you andother activists have done in
response to this type ofoppression.
I mean, can you tell us alittle bit about when you first
got involved as an activist?
You know you were a teenager.
What did that look like andwhat sort of risks did that
(14:15):
involve for you as a young womanbeginning to stand up to this
type of brutality?
Farida Nabourema (14:22):
If you allow me, before I answer that
question, I would like toprovide a little bit of
background, but believe me, Iwouldn't be too long.
The first question you ask isabout how did people resist or
what did they do as a result ofthis.
My activism wouldn't have beenpossible without that of my
father, because he himself hasbeen an activist for decades and
(14:43):
it was his arrest in 2003that's kicked me into politics
out of anger and frustration andfear.
But my father's activismhimself wouldn't have been
possible without that of mygrandfather.
Actually, my grandfather wasalso an activist and my
grandfather was an activistagainst colonial rule and,
interestingly, when I said atthe beginning of this podcast,
(15:06):
that go to returnism we see inTogo has its roots in the
colonial system when the Frenchwere colonizing Togo.
Togo was initially a Germancolony but then was divided
following the German in loosingwhat were one between Britain
and French and French.
Togo is what we know as Togotoday, as the British Togo land,
(15:27):
united with the Gold Coast fromGhana.
But under the French rule, itwas illegal to not stop and
salute a white person.
Whenever an African personcrosses them on the street, they
can report you for not greetingthem and you can be arrested
and flogged, severely flogged,and embarrassed publicly for
(15:50):
that.
And my grandfather was arrestedfor not greeting a white man
and he was arrested.
He was tied to a tree like ananimal.
He was flogged and he was leftthere.
And he took a public schoolteacher, a local, to see his
suffering and to plea on hisbehalf for him to get released.
(16:13):
And my grandfather, as agesture of thank you, became
very close to that teacher whointroduced him to the
independent struggle by makinghim understand that if we get
our independence, he wouldn'thave to salute any white man
anymore and he wouldn't have tobe tortured because he refused
to salute a white man.
And that whole personality cultthat Yadima has created was
(16:38):
derived from the way the localcolonial rulers were ruling
their communities.
They wanted to presentthemselves as being superior to
the Africans and the localsthere.
So this is what led my dad intoactivism, because my
grandfather spent years inprison when he eventually joined
the independence struggle.
As a result of him being inprison, one of his sons
(17:01):
contracted Rubella and he wasrejected from the hospital
because there was another lawstating that the children of
people fighting for independenceshould not be allowed in
schools and in hospitals becausethese were presented as the
benefits of colonialism.
So the saying was that if youdon't want colonialism, you
(17:22):
shouldn't enjoy any benefits ofthe colonialism.
So your children can go to thehospitals.
And my uncle died and as aresult of that and it was a very
traumatic experience for my dadbecause he was this younger one
and he saw him dying and theywere helpless and there was
nothing they could do about itand he became an activist and
(17:45):
went through the same cycle ofprison, out in and out.
And it wasn't until I was 13that I became aware of this,
because I was younger back thenand my mom was really good at
not letting us know, at hidingit, but when I was 13, it
happened in front of us.
I was a little more mature and Iwas older and this took,
something was happening, andthis is how I became involved as
(18:08):
an activist myself, and it issomething that, once you start,
you find it difficult to stop,because initially, political
meetings in Togo were banned andmy father was arrested in 2003
during a political gathering.
So they had codes amongthemselves whenever they wanted
to meet and they would meet atone of their friend's house for
their political meetings and asa kid he always used to send me
(18:32):
around to tell people we aremeeting at this person's place
for food, for dinner, andinitially I didn't understand
there was something behind it.
But right after he was releasedfrom prison I realized he got
in trouble because of thosemeetings.
So I started following himwithout him knowing.
Then, when he was done, he'llcome out of the meeting and
we'll find this wedding outsideand like, what are you doing
(18:54):
here?
It's late, like sometimes itwas over 8pm or 9pm, and in Togo
you don't get out at this timeof the day.
So he realized that preventingme from following him wasn't a
solution.
You would rather have me gowith him and ensure my safety
than forbidding me fromfollowing him, and then I'll
still find a way to sneak outand go there.
(19:15):
So that's how I startedfollowing my dad to political
meetings and through thosemeetings I learned a lot about
the different grievances peoplewere fighting against and what
was bringing them together.
And I realized that these peoplewere doing this at a great risk
, knowing very much that theycould die as a result of it, and
(19:36):
unfortunately I know many ofthem who have died following
arrest and torture in prisons,and the one case that hurts me
the most is that the youngestprisoner in that history.
She was 8 months old when shewas arrested, with her mom and
my dad.
They were all placed in thesame cell.
Her name was Olivia and I havealways hoped that she will grow
(20:00):
up and I will tell her the storyabout how it all happened, and
unfortunately she passed away acouple of years ago and she
never had to experience thatfreedom either.
So these are things that make meache a lot to know that people
were born, grew up in thatatmosphere of fear and torture
(20:21):
and abuse and they die and theylive the world like that and
they never get a chance toexperience justice and freedom.
But at the same time, it alsokeeps me going, because they
have been many times where therepression is hard.
Even though I'm not physicallyin Togo, their tasks come in
multiple ways and in multipleforms.
You feel like giving up and youget tired, but then I remember
(20:45):
my plea, my commitments and mypromise to those who have fallen
that I will keep fighting sothat one day they get justice,
and it reminds me that the veryleast I can do, because I'm
lucky to still be alive is touse whatever means and resources
that I have to raise awarenesson the abuse people are facing
in Togo and to mobilizeresources to support the
(21:08):
struggle to bring an end to thisdealership in Togo.
Marie Berry (21:11):
Wow, frida.
I just that's a lot ofheaviness right, and just thank
you for bringing baby Oliviainto the conversation.
You know what a tragedy and areminder of the stakes of this
work.
So thank you for sharing that,thank you, Mary.
(21:34):
Tell us about what the work haslooked like for you.
What is the work looked like?
I mean, you said you startedwhen you were 13.
I mean you were a kid followingyour dad around to these
meetings, and how did it growfrom there to become such a
massive part of your life?
Honestly, I feel like.
Farida Nabourema (21:53):
Now that I'm older and more experienced, I
realize that a lot of myreactions were results of trauma
and anger, a lot of anger, myinability to be able to help
people really needed help, and Iwas obsessed with the struggle
to some extent where nothingelse mattered for me in my life,
(22:16):
because I felt like there isnothing more important than
freeing toggle from that regimethat is preventing millions of
people from living a decent life.
That struggle, right from thebeginning, came with a lot of
backlashes, and the very firstbacklash came from my inner
circle, my family.
(22:37):
But I was lucky that my dad,being the stubborn activist he
is, has always been not only aninspiration but a source of
comfort for when the backlashesare so severe that he realized
people are going too far, and hewill talk to me and make me
understand that these are allpart of the struggle.
(22:59):
To some extent he normalizes it.
It has advantages anddisadvantages to normalize abuse
, but at least he helped meunderstand that I wasn't the
only activist that have facedthis type of repression, and
some have actually faced farmore than that.
It has been constantly waking upevery morning and asking
(23:20):
yourself if it is worth it andthen convincing yourself that it
is definitely worth it.
And the second you step out,the entire world reminds you
that you're wasting your time.
You're putting your life atrisk for nothing.
You're going to get killed orgo to prison.
You don't think about your mombecause she's going to suffer as
a result of this.
You're a selfish person becauseyou don't put your family first
(23:41):
, or you don't put your parentsfirst, or from the sexist
comments.
You're a woman.
You should just find a husbandand have babies.
You should just find somethingto do with your life in the
fashion industry or anythingelse that is projected as being
the only acceptable forms ofactivities women can engage
(24:03):
themselves in.
So I found myself in a situationwhere I was constantly fighting
people that were supposed to beon our side, people who were
victims of dictatorship, likemyself, but who believe that it
is because of those of us whoexpose the regime that their
lives are in danger.
(24:24):
And there is a famous sentencethat my dad keeps sharing since
I was a kid.
To me he said when he was inprison in 1979, that was way
before I was arrested my mom andher were dating.
At the time they were notmarried yet, and my mom told her
, if you don't provoke thebeehives, the bees will not bite
(24:44):
you, because she believed thathim writing against the regime
was provoking the regime and foras long as you leave them alone
you'll be fine.
But we have countless of casesof people who were actually
extremely good citizensaccording to the regime's own
book, meaning they do everythingright and they still became
(25:08):
victims of the regime.
Because when there isabsolutely no rule of law, it
doesn't matter if you're doingthe right thing, you will still
end up being on the wrong side.
It's all because the system isflawed and you can just become
an unlucky citizen and end uppaying the price for that.
So people are taught in oursystem to see activists as
(25:32):
enemies and I recall at thebeginning one of the people
referred to my mom as theactivist mom.
When people tell her are youthe mom of the activist?
She used to be so outragedbecause activism was seen as a
delinquency, as terrorism.
In fact, activists werearrested and taken from
(25:55):
neighborhood to neighborhood bythe military.
They would call people out tocome and stone them and chant
very mean words to themterrorists, criminals.
So growing up in thatenvironment the worst thing that
can happen to any of the kidsis to be an activist, and I had
to battle loved ones feelingthat way to the point where, for
(26:17):
almost a decade now, so many ofmy immediate family members I
don't have any relationship withthem, I don't even know what's
happening in their life, becausethey were so afraid of my
activism that they would rathernot even know I exist than to
have anything whatsoever to dowith me.
But today, thanks to socialmedia, things are changing.
(26:39):
I belong to one of the veryfirst generation actually the
first generation of Togulisactivists using social media for
activism and technically calledthe cyber activists and the
Togulis government owns worldcyber criminals because activism
is so good to the time andbelonging to that generation has
allowed us to demystifyactivism in so many ways, and
(27:02):
today I'm proud to see youngpeople coming to me and telling
me for real we are so inspiredby your bravery and what you're
doing, we want to work with you,we want to be an activist.
I am extremely humbled andreally honored to be along with
that generation that is actuallychanging the norms, that is
(27:23):
demystifying social engagement,civic engagement and activism
overall in Togul, and I call ita liberation from fear.
For a long time, people wereafraid that fear.
They have been overcoming itthanks to the work of tremendous
and amazing, courageousactivists for many decades.
(27:44):
Unfortunately, many of them haveleft us, but today it feels
good to see the result, becausethey live in an era where there
was no way for them to know ifpeople were listening, if people
were supporting them, if peoplewere approving what they were
doing, if their sacrifices wereworth it.
At least we can, from socialmedia comments to people
(28:05):
responding to protest calls forpeople signing petitions.
Back in the days in 2011, whenI first launched the movement,
we put out a petition.
The majority of the people wereafraid of putting their names
on the petition, even in thediaspora, because they were
afraid that if the governmentfind their names on the
petitions, them and theirfamilies will get in trouble.
But today, people signpetitions, the protest, and I am
(28:29):
lucky to belong to a generationthat is witnessing that change,
and it just makes me feel sograteful to those who have kept
the light and the flame of thestruggle alive for decades,
since 1967.
Absolutely.
Marie Berry (28:45):
I mean in all of the things that you've shared
with us so far.
I mean the importance of thatlegacy, those that came before
right.
I mean not only in terms ofinspiring and motivating the
work that you do, you know,standing on the shoulders of
your father and your grandfather, but also in understanding that
, like the battles that we'refighting today are not created
(29:06):
yesterday.
They are deeply rooted in thesesystems of colonial right, of
the kind of the violenceembedded in the colonial project
and the way in which I mean Oneof the other things you talked
about in other contexts is theway in which the patriarchal
order of Togolese society wasalso shaped during that colonial
(29:29):
period.
Farida Nabourema (29:30):
Absolutely Freeing women in Africa is
literally decolonizingpatriarchy.
Today, the unfortunate thing isthat people, whenever they hear
about feminism or women's right, the first sentence that comes
out of their mouth is it's aWestern concept especially in
(29:50):
Togo and many African countries.
You guys are importing Westernconcepts to Africa.
It doesn't apply to Africa.
But the funny thing is that themisogyny is actually what's
they imported from the West andthey don't realize that a lot of
the laws that we have todaythat are detrimental to Togolese
(30:11):
women are imported fromcolonialism.
And I'll give you a very simpleexample From my mom's tribe.
They have a system where womengets to name their children.
You take your mom's family'sname, you don't take your
father's name, and from yourname people can tell from which
community, from which villageyour mom comes from.
And what was the basis for this?
(30:32):
It came from the very simplefact that the only true parents,
biological parents you know hisroles is your mom.
And by taking your father'sname, what if you find out in 20
years that you have a differentdad?
It happens, because it happenseverywhere.
So will you have to change yourname?
And on that basis, that tribeand many other tribes in Togo
(30:58):
and in West Africa in generalinherited from their maternal
families.
You inherit from your mom'ssiblings and your maternal
grandparents and not yourpaternal ones, because their
understanding was number one.
Yeah, at least you know forsure that that family is your
family.
And number two, they wanted toensure that if the father dies,
(31:21):
your children do not be in asituation where your paternal
family takes everything from you.
At least your mom's family canprovide something.
Instead, you always know youhave a home in your mom's family
, but then on that basis, incolonial Togo and after the
independence of Togo, togoesewomen could not give their
citizenship to their children,and this was imported from the
(31:46):
French family code, the Code dela famille, which is the legal
legislations around family law,and in the French family law
women could not give theircitizenship to children.
So traditionally, if I have achild, my child is a full
citizen from my community.
He has my name and now legally,because of colonialism, I as a
(32:12):
mother cannot pass on mycitizenship or my name to my
child.
And they don't realize it whenyou tell them.
This is where the misogynist iscoming from.
So now we have laws that arerestricting women that we didn't
have in the past, or at leastfor communities that were very
patriarchal, because you havetried to meet that many
communities in Africa was alsovery misogynistic and
(32:32):
patriarchal.
There were no legal frameworksaround it.
It was more of what was said inthe community and people are
bad by it.
But there was no going to jailbecause there's a law preventing
you, as a woman, to do ABCD Incolonial Togo.
And still, 1993, togoese womenhave to fight for the right to
(32:57):
own a passport without theauthorization of a male sibling
or a male parent or spouse,because in colonial era for
women to leave the country theyneed a handwritten authorization
called Otoizasum maritalmarital, sparsal authorization
allowing you to obtain apassport and allowing you to
(33:18):
travel out of your country.
Back in the days women couldjust travel whatever they feel
like it and when they weremarried and they no longer
wanted the marriage, they justpicked your stuff and they leave
.
Now we have laws preventingwomen from doing that.
So there are a lot of residuesfrom the colonial system that
are embedded in today's laws.
But because they have beenthere for so long now people
(33:40):
come to think that those aretraditions and they'll think
that it is the liberty of womenand the freedom of women that is
a foreign concept, that theydon't want it.
But it's rather the opposite.
It is the misogynistic law themisogynistic law sorry, I'm
saying it's different that arecompletely foreign to our
(34:03):
culture.
Marie Berry (34:03):
Oh my gosh.
I mean I think we see so manyechoes of this in so many places
where we do, by looking at thedeep history, that the gender
relations of the present and thekind of real divisions between
men and women and the kind oflegal codifications of that
gender discrimination are notsomething that is always
(34:26):
existing, absolutely Right.
It's so easy to assume thatwhat exists is what will always
exist, and I think one of thethings that really motivates
this podcast is to think aboutuntangling and troubling that
idea that what the world willbecome doesn't have to look like
it always looked and in fact itcan look like some of the more
(34:48):
imaginative, creative, radicalexperiments and kind of bold
visions on the margins, ratherthan the kind of status quo
which takes these systems asinevitable and as fixed.
So what do we do about this,rita?
I mean, what are you doing?
How do you tackle thatsimultaneous struggle of
(35:10):
authoritarian dictatorship andmisogynistic, sort of deeply
patriarchal social dynamics thatobviously factor into the
emboldening of thatauthoritarian regime and
certainly of the regime's manytentacles?
The security forces, thesavages, as you put it, that
(35:31):
security force, thoseinstitutions that are charged
with defending the regime?
I mean, what is the work thenthat you're doing to really
tackle these systems of violence.
Farida Nabourema (35:41):
Interestingly, the more you navigate through
this struggle, the more realizethat everything is
interconnected into time.
Initially, when I set as anactivist, it was specifically
against authoritarian regime.
Then, down the line, I realizethat the returnism is deeply
rooted in colonialism and thecolonialism is rooted in
imperialism and capitalism, andthe misogyny are also derived
(36:06):
from this.
It's a system that you have tocompletely dismantle and it's a
very tedious and long anddifficult task.
But how do I go about it?
For me, the first one iseducation.
The more people know and themore people understand it makes
a huge difference, because,unfortunately, our educational
(36:27):
system is extremely colonized.
We haven't decolonized oureducation in Togo.
Till day, we are told in Togothat the person who abolished
slavery is this very nice Frenchguy called Victor Chouchet, and
I grew up believing it andmillions of Togolizian people
grew up believing it, andmillions of Francophone Africans
(36:49):
grew up believing that slaverywas abolished single-handedly by
a single French man.
There was never a singlereference about the struggle of
people in Haiti, in Guyana, inthe United States, of how
slavery revolted.
And the Nat Turners, theToussaint Louverture, the
Jacques Desalins?
(37:09):
We have never heard a single ofthose names.
Slavery was started by whitepeople and then, when they
realized it wasn't, neitherstopped and capitalism was
started by white people, andwhen they were not happy about
it, they stopped it.
So, literally, our educationsystem prevents us from
accessing the truth and truehistory.
Number one thing that I havebeen doing has been writing.
(37:32):
Over the past 10 years, I'vewritten more than 500 articles.
I try as much as I am able toto do that.
In the past, I used to also useother channels, such as
WhatsApp and YouTube, to givepeople facts, and I am actually
revolted each time I share thosefacts and I receive hundreds of
messages of people saying wedidn't know that, and I feel as
(37:54):
angry as they felt, because it'slike your whole life is a scam,
because it's just likeeverything I've been taught
about myself, my people, myhistory, my nation is false.
Then, explaining things in adifferent context, because
sometimes, because conversationsare not even started, people
only reflect what they were toldwas the right thing, and when
(38:19):
you provide a deep analysis anddeconstruct things for them,
they understand.
One example I give is the factthat my mom's grandmom was a
construction worker.
She used to build homes andpaint homes from scratch, and
that was her job.
And back in the days, buildinghomes was women's job.
(38:41):
Women were the one building thehomes, they were the one doing
the painting, they were the onedoing the plumbry and everything
.
And when colonialism came, theywould only recruit the men into
the construction sector.
And today, by over 95%,construction workers in Togo are
male and if you're a woman andyou want to venture into that,
they feel like what kind ofwoman are you?
You're not a good African woman.
(39:02):
But the real African women forcenturies were building their
own homes.
It wasn't until very recently,because my mom's grandma died in
1980.
So that's barely 30 years sinceshe passed away.
So we have a generation ofthose women who are still alive
today, who grew up buildinghomes, who didn't have any
segregation when it comes to thelabor sector.
(39:27):
Women could be traders, theycould be teachers, they could be
healthcare workers, they couldbe in construction, in fields
and sectors that were deemedcompletely masculine in the
Western world, because when thecolonialists came they changed
everything, and today we havemultiple campaigns promoting
women's education and I feeloutraged whenever I see those
(39:49):
campaigns portraying Africansocieties that are so
misogynistic to the point wherethey don't want to send their
daughters to school, they wantto send the boys to school and
keep the daughters at home.
But the reality is that whenthe first colonial schools were
opened, they were not takinggirls.
It started as the colonialschools refusing to enroll girls
(40:11):
in the first place.
Then, eventually, when theystarted taking the girls, there
were no jobs available for thegirls.
So the parents coming from poorcommunities felt like, if we
have enough money to send onekid to school, well, what I said
, the one kid that we know willget a job and it's the world.
So those are changes and peoplehad to adapt to situations
(40:34):
which created a gender disparitywe have in education today, but
it's portrayed as beingtypically African, typically
primitive, but it's not rootedin that.
So they're constructing theneeds through education.
In addition, organizingcommunities.
Organizing communities bycreating small groups of people,
(40:56):
young people, who come togetherand debate around those issues,
so that we live in a societywhere everybody's voice matters,
where we bring in differentideas and see ways we can
challenge the system at multiplelevels.
And we do this through art, wedo this through music, we do
this through streets, actions,community service and many
(41:17):
others.
Marie Berry (41:18):
Can you give us an example of that, how you're
organizing people through artand through straight movements
and things like that?
Farida Nabourema (41:25):
So we have a film, a documentary coming up,
but before those documentaries,one of the things we were doing
was to actually organize I don'tknow how to say the other in
English the place in communitieswhere we use fiction to tell
the real stories, becauseusually when you do it under
(41:46):
fiction you get less in troublethan when you're doing it in
real life.
You can all put it under thebanner of acting.
So we had those.
And then we had reading clubswhere we assign books for each
club in different communitiesfor young people to actually
come and read.
We have recently launched whatwe are calling a digital
(42:08):
democracy program, and I reallywanted to see this because I
believe that the internet hasplayed a huge role in helping us
organize and because dictatorsare fighting back, we as
citizens have to also take astep further and to organize
digitally.
So the digital democracyprogram has three components.
(42:28):
The first one is that wecreated a community of young
people who we are training, whohave been trained to train
others on how to use socialmedia for social justice.
So they train them on how tocreate hashtags, how to use
Facebook and Twitter and usethem in different channels, how
to create stories and how toshare those stories among the
(42:50):
communities.
Then we have another one, whichis about financial liberation,
because, in total, thegovernment have a huge control
over the financial system andthey say in French la hajjol,
you know the like?
Money is the nerve of the world.
So literally, spending moneyhas been a problem and people
are now afraid to donate and tocontribute to fundraising
(43:11):
because they don't want to getin trouble with the regime.
So now we have explored usingthe Bitcoin as an alternative
for fundraising in Togo and wecreated a special program called
EGAE, which in our languagemeans new money, and we are
training young people,especially women, about how to
trade Bitcoin asset, bitcoin asa form of payments, invest in
(43:33):
Bitcoin in many other ways,because we believe that we need
to be part of that monetaryrevolution.
But then, at the same time, wehave to have an alternative to
the government financial system,because we can trade Bitcoin
asset forms of payments anddonations with Bitcoin in all
anonymity, while preserving thedata and information of our
members.
(43:54):
And in addition to that, we haveinvested in a mobile
application, and the applicationactually uses the mesh system,
and this weekend we have theidea of having something like
this because we have witnessedinternet shutdowns in Togo in
the past, sometimes social mediashutdown.
Whenever we announce, thecitizens announce a protest, the
(44:16):
government will shut down allmeans of communication, thinking
that by doing this they willhave all the protests and create
fear and prevent communicationamong organizers.
So we are spirits using themesh system for communication
only among some activists, andnow we have developers working
for us to build a whole app onwhich we can connect thousands
(44:37):
of people without the internet.
This will reduce costs in termsof accessing a messaging system
and it will also prevent thegovernment from having any form
of control of our communicationmeans.
So if you cut the telephone andthe internet, they are fine,
they can do it.
We also have an alternative.
So the digital democracyprogram is something that we
(44:59):
hope will help us align techwith our struggle for democracy
in Togo.
Marie Berry (45:05):
That's remarkable.
I mean the internet shutdowns,of course, and the tight control
of particular sites is just anddigital surveillance, and
absolutely it's becoming thekind of calling card of all
authoritarian regimes around theworld, and I think what you're
doing here is a reallyinnovative way of trying to work
(45:25):
within that reality butcircumvent, while also
protecting the people that areinvolved in this work.
Farida Nabourema (45:34):
While the Bitcoin provides an opportunity
for governments to invest infunds, which they have been
doing in many forms, it's alsoproviding an alternative to
citizens to also raise funds,keep their money in a safe way
that the government cannotcontrol or access Exactly.
(45:54):
So it's for us to havealternatives, because there's
one thing that I preach in myteams and my community is that
when the government shoots onebullet, they kill one person at
a time, but when we shoot withthe digital space, the internet,
we touch millions of people ata time.
So we have technology on ourside to touch spaces, to enter
(46:18):
communities, to reach peoplethat we couldn't have reached in
the past, and we should be ableto use that technology to
innovate in our activism.
We have to be a step ahead ofthem.
It wasn't until 2020 and 2021that the whole world started
focusing on Pegases.
Togo was one of the very firstusers on the continent, but
(46:41):
before then we already gotdozens and dozens of TogoLiz
activists and journalists tradeon that Pegases.
So knowing and anticipating thethreats and finding solutions
to counter them and findingalternatives is the best way for
us to ensure we continue thisstruggle and we eventually win
it.
So, for me, whatever is goingto increase our chances of
(47:03):
mobilizing resources andempowering people in this
struggle is very much welcomed,as long as it's not illegal.
Even if it's illegal in Togo,it depends on the type of
legalities we could stillchallenge.
But the most important thingfor us is to keep mobilizing
resources and strengtheningpeople so that we eventually win
(47:26):
this struggle one day.
Marie Berry (47:27):
Absolutely.
You have a remarkable abilityto find those alternative
structures and to build them ifthey don't already exist, and it
seems like you've been doingthat for you.
Thank you.
Farida Nabourema (47:39):
I'm still learning too.
The good thing about socialactivism is that there is not a
single struggle that you areactually leading that people
haven't fought in the past,because the issue that we are
facing in terms of oppression,abuse, dictatorship, misogyny,
(48:00):
colonialism have existed for aslong as we could remember and
people have done amazingly wellin different contexts and some
have overcome those systems.
And back in 2016, when Idecided to dedicate my focus
entirely on this activismbecause I was living in the US
(48:20):
back then, I lived in the US foreight years before deciding to
move back, initially to Togo.
I went back to Togo at firstand didn't turn out well and had
to leave again.
My goal was to not go back tothe US, but to stay around and
to seek as much help as possiblefrom activists from other
African countries that werefighting the terrorists or that
have fought the terrorists andwere successful.
(48:42):
And I was lucky.
I had an amazing team thatreally believes in me, because
they have seen how dedicated Iwas to the struggle, and they
supported this venture in manyways by purchasing tickets for
my flat to go to other countriesto meet activists from there,
just to exchange from them andtry to find out what they were
doing new or different from usin Togo, because we felt like in
(49:05):
Togo we were just cursed,because we were like we have
been fighting this for decadesand countries have been winning
and we are still at the sameplace.
So we felt like maybe there'ssomething people are doing
different that we don't know andwe should try to approach them
to find out how they were doingit.
So in that effort, I travel allover the continent.
I started with the Gambia,because I used to protest with
(49:26):
Gambian activists in WashingtonDC every weekend and then they
succeeded.
And then Nigeria and Ghana andTanzania and Bukina Faso,
senegal, and by going through, Iused to just buy a ticket and
show up and try to find acontact there or somebody who
knows somebody there, and Iasked to speak to movement
(49:48):
leaders, activists andorganizers and I'll spend days
or weeks in those countries justto have meetings with them and
to learn from them.
It was just a knowledge sharingopportunity and whatever I
learned from them, I got theresults and I go back to my team
and I said this is what theyare doing that could be helpful
to us, and that's how we endedup creating the Togo Lease Civil
League because initially weonly had the former Go movement
(50:11):
and the former Go movementwasn't registered.
So fundraising outside of Togowas a little difficult for
countries where people want todonate to a tax exempt
organization.
So we decided to register TogoLease Civil League.
As a result of that, and evenmeeting people that introduced
me to Human Rights Foundation soI could speak at the Oslo
(50:32):
Freedom Forum, it was trueAnother activist that I met in
the Gambia that introduced me tosomebody else who introduced me
to them.
So I realized that networkingis the most powerful tool in
social justice and luckily, whenyou invited me at EGLE at the
University of Denver, I alsomade wonderful connections there
(50:54):
.
You won't believe it, butthanks to one of the
participants of EGLE, we wereable to find a good lawyer in
Israel who helped us file aclaim at the Department of
Defense in Israel to open up allthe archives about Israeli gun
sales and weapon sales to thegovernment of Togo.
It's incredible.
(51:15):
When I came to my team and Isaid we got a lawyer in Israel,
they're like for real.
I'm sure we are afraid of you.
How in the world did you get alawyer in Israel?
I said I have connections, butthese are amazing connections
that I made through otheractivists like myself, in
multiple spaces and ideas.
Some of them you just have toadd a little twist to it to suit
(51:37):
your own environment.
But don't be afraid to seek thehelp, and I have been receiving
a lot of.
There are many, countlesssuggestions and proposals and
support that we receive frompeople.
Some of them, we can fulfillall of them, but those that we
think are completely necessaryto us, we just go for it.
So what I will say is I cannotclaim that I am so smart that I
(52:03):
came up with all those ideas bymyself.
But I was lucky to be in spaceswhere people shared some
innovations and people shared.
They were generous to sharetheir network with me and
connect me with the right peoplewho helped us create those
programs and launch thosedifferent initiatives.
And I'm sure we're only gettingstarted.
Marie Berry (52:24):
Oh, frida, I love that so much and I just think it
really underscores the power ofconnection and of networks and
of the way in which we are allfacing similar systems of
oppression that uphold eachother and that it will take a
collective sort of.
It will take many, many, manysmall and middle and large scale
(52:48):
collective initiatives that arefocused on justice, that are
focused on freedom, that arefocused on eradicating some of
these oppressive systems inorder for all of us to face the
possibility of a more freefuture.
I believe that so deeply and Ithink your work really tests to
that.
Welcome to what the World Will Become, a podcast
about the humans who dedicatetheir lives to building a more
free and just world.
My name is Marie Berry.
I'm a feminist researcher andwriter, and I've spent the
better part of the past 20 yearsresearching and thinking about
how women experience war and itsaftermath.
I've done research in placeslike Rwanda, Bosnia, Kenya,
(00:27):
Nepal and Colombia, and I'veinterviewed hundreds of women
whose lives have been shaped byviolence.
Along the way, I have beenrepeatedly struck by two
simultaneous truths.
The first is that violence isdevastating, leaving those who
survive it with trauma and griefthat can last for years and
even generations.
But the second is that even inthe most bleak and impossible of
(00:50):
situations, there is often agreat beauty, a way that those
who suffer from violence findlove, joy and resilience that
can creatively forge new pathsforward, paths that offer us
profound hope and possibilityfor building a more just and
free world.
On this podcast, I interviewactivists from all across the
(01:11):
world who are forging thesepaths forward in the context of
deep difficulty.
These activists offer us, andoffer me, a blueprint for how we
might build a world that isfree from violence.
The title of this podcast isinspired by abolitionist scholar
Ruth Wilson Gilmore, whoreminded us that quote.
What the world will becomealready exists in fragments and
(01:35):
pieces, experiments andpossibilities.
So please join me in thisseason of what the world will
become to hear stories fromthose whose experiments have
profoundly inspired me.
My hope is, at the end of eachepisode, and indeed the whole
season, you are inspired bythese stories and find small
ways to bring bits of their workinto your own lives.
(01:59):
Hello everyone, my guest todayis Frida Naborrema, a democracy
and human rights activist fromTogo.
Togo is a country of about 8million people in West Africa,
and it has been ruled by thesame family a father and a son
since 1967, making it thelongest running regime in Africa
.
Under current president FahriNukhna Simbe's rule, the country
(02:22):
has engaged in widespreadabuses, restrictions on freedom
of speech and rampant corruption.
Frida has spent her life tryingto counter this repression and
bring democracy to her country.
She is the executive directorof the Togholi Civil League and
her writing has been featured inplaces like the New York Times,
African arguments and Forbes,and her activism has been
(02:44):
celebrated on CNN and PR, in theGuardian, the Economist and
more.
I first met Frida in 2018 whenshe came to the second annual
IGLI Summer Institute for WomenActivists that I convene in
Colorado each summer.
When I met her, it didn't takeme long to realize that she was
a remarkable force.
She is a woman who's weatheredprofound personal difficulties
(03:08):
as a result of her activism, buteverything she has experienced
has instilled in her afierceness and a dedication to
fighting for a more free andjust world for all.
I'm happy to say that Frida hasreturned to every IGLI Summer
Institute since sharing herwisdom with activists from
across the world, and todayFrida is one of the most known
(03:30):
figures in efforts to builddemocracy in Togo and
Francophone West Africa.
As you listen to ourconversation today, I think
you'll quickly understand why,Frida, welcome so much to the
show.
I'm so deeply excited to besitting here with you today,
Farida, and what a joy to beable to have this conversation
(03:52):
with you on InternationalWomen's Day.
I think it's a delight thatneither of us had anything
scheduled for a little bit oftime this morning for me, this
afternoon for you and so it'sjust an honor to get to sit down
with you and talk about whatyou are doing to build a world
that is more free for morepeople.
So welcome to the show andthank you for being here.
Farida Nabourema (04:15):
Thank you so much, Mary, for inviting me.
I am extremely delighted to behere today, especially on a
specific day like this one.
That means a lot for women'sright and social justice across
the globe, so thank you forhaving me Absolutely.
Marie Berry (04:30):
I want to invite you to just start by introducing
yourself and letting everybodywho is listening know a little
bit about who you are and whatsort of work you've been doing.
Farida Nabourema (04:39):
I was born and raised in Togo.
I have been an activist since Iwas a teenager.
I've been fighting to bringdemocracy to my country, togo,
that has been ruled by the oldermilitary regime in Africa.
I co-founded 11 years ago asocial movement called the
former school movement, and thegoal of the movement was to push
(05:03):
Togo's youth and citizens ingeneral to demand accountability
from the military regime ofFonyasinbe and to demand change,
because all we have known sincewe were born has been the same
family in power, and thatauthoritarianism has prevented
our people from enjoying alltheir civil rights and liberties
(05:24):
.
We grew up in an environment ofviolence, where the state's
repression is extremely high,and so, since I was young, all I
have been doing is to fight forsocial justice in Togo and in
Africa as a whole, because Ifeel like the oppression of the
people of Togo are the residuesfrom a colonial system that has
(05:48):
legitimized the use of violenceagainst citizens and that has
made it okay for governments tonot want to be held accountable.
And along the line, I foundedanother organization called the
Togo Lease Civil League, and I'mthe district director of the
Togo Lease Civil League.
Today we are lucky to havepeople working in the Togo Lease
(06:11):
Civil League in three differentcontinents in the US, in Europe
, in Africa.
It's a diaspora-basedorganization funded by Togo
Lease and Exile, hoping to raiseawareness globally about the
dictatorship in Togo, but toalso support local initiatives
on the ground in Togo in termsof civic engagement, women's
(06:34):
rights and rule of law.
Marie Berry (06:36):
In general, it's fantastic and remarkable.
You know the type of workyou've been doing, the amount of
time you've been doing it for,and I know it's really
challenging and difficult work,and so I look forward to kind of
talking to you about some ofthat, and I want to perhaps just
ask you to tell us a little bitabout what it means to grow up
(06:59):
in Togo and what that looks likefor you, for your family, for
women and for Togo Lease peoplemore broadly.
Farida Nabourema (07:05):
I was born under the rule of Ea de
Manasimbe, who died in 2005 whenI was 15 years old, and his
rule is not much different fromthat of his son, but there are
some more particularitiesbecause he came from this
generation of tyrants, wherethey really promoted themselves
as semi-guards and wanted thecitizens to be in complete
(07:29):
adoration of them.
I grew up in a country wherestudents in the public school
system were obliged to trainevery single Wednesday afternoon
and weekend to dance for thepresident, to sing his name, to
praise his name, and there werecompetitions among schools in
(07:50):
terms of who would better praiseand hail the president.
And unfortunately, this was notjust limited to the students.
It was actually the case of thesmall public servants in Togo.
Teachers, police officers andmany other small servants had to
also learn to dance, wearingparty uniforms and performing
(08:13):
for the president to his glory.
And on Sundays, people would goto the headquarters of the
ruling party and the presidentwould sit like a semi-guard,
wearing always wearing blacksunglasses and admiring the
people, praising and singing himand dancing for him.
And every morning, people haveto line up from his house to the
(08:35):
presidency to clap for him whenhe's going to work and when
he's returning and whenever hetravels, people, every morning,
every single morning, and whenhe travels, people have to line
up from his the presidency tothe airport to clap for him, to
tell him goodbye and say flight.
And when he returns, peoplehave to also line up from the
airport to his house to welcomehim back to the country.
(08:58):
Apparently, he's the father ofthe nation, he's our daddy and
he traveled to bring us goodiesand bring good luck and
investment to the country.
So we live in a system wherethere was a huge personality
call and that personality callcame with very high experience,
mistakes were not too narratedand students a pedestrian can be
(09:21):
shot dead because he didn'tstop when the police asked him
to stop, because thepresidential car is going to
pass, or a student can getarrested and his family are
arrested and killed because herefused to perform for the
president, because he's notfeeling well.
So it was an atmosphere ofterror and fear and by 7 pm each
(09:41):
day, the government unleashedsoldiers from the military and
there was a special unit,soldiers units, a special force
and they were called there's anickname for them they were
called the savages.
And these guys were savages.
Yes, they were released.
They had big beards, theylooked very unkept, very scary,
(10:05):
showing all the toxicmasculinity of scary men, and
they were unleashed on thestreets every night from 7 pm to
keep people in their homes andif, by any mistake, you find
yourself in the streets and theyfind you, you may get severely
beaten or killed andunfortunately, one of my cousins
(10:27):
was their victims.
He was so severely beaten thatas a result of that, he lost his
mind.
He never recovered from it andeventually he died a couple of
years later.
And they are countless of youngTogolese people who get killed
that way, and it was anatmosphere of terror.
You can't even see the name ofthe president in your home.
(10:47):
So in that context, believe meor not, when I had them died in
2005, the people of Togo were sooverjoyed they were celebrating
.
It was like I always tellpeople millennials from my
generation who are fanatics ofHarry Potter that the only
comparable thing to Voldemort inreal life was the Adema, and I
(11:10):
was reading Harry Potter as ateenager living in Togo, and
when I realized that in thatbook people couldn't see the
name of Voldemort, automatically, I'm like we can see the name
of Eya Dema too, and the wholetime I was reading the book by
portraying Voldemort in my headas Eya Demanyasimbe, because
every single thing that wasdescribed about Voldemort
(11:31):
corresponded to Eya Dema.
But his son did a coup on theevening of his death and what we
thought were going to be an endto decades of suffering and
abuse actually became anightmare, because the following
month there was a completeattack on civilians.
According to the United Nations,over 500 people were killed in
(11:54):
the aftermath of Eya Dema'sdeath, following the elections
that his son organized andwanted to keep himself in power,
and the numbers on the groundare far more than that, and I
remember there were two studentsin my high school that also
died, didn't come back to schoollater on because they died in
the police.
Repression and the deed.
(12:14):
That reminds us that there is acontinuity of dictatorship.
It's not because Eya Dema isthere to die.
The repression and the abuseand the terror is going to end,
and his son wanted to send us avery strong message that he is
capable of being as brutal, ifnot more, than his death, and
unfortunately he has been doingthat for the past 17 years.
(12:36):
He's now the longest servingpresident in West Africa.
His father was there for 38years.
He's been there for 17 yearsand counting, and the regime has
been in power in Togo for awhole of 55 years.
Marie Berry (12:49):
Wow, it's amazing to just begin to kind of get a
glimpse, or really wrap my ownhead around, what it would be
like to be forced to applaud thepresident's car every morning,
or to dance for his glory, asyou put it, and to be terrorized
(13:13):
in the evenings by the savages,and I think you talked about
the kind of whole cult ofpersonality around the president
that then didn't change withthe arrival of his son.
I mean, this is a reallystunning and challenging example
, I think, of what it means likefor so many people who live
(13:34):
under authoritarian rule aroundthe world, and while the kind of
specific characteristics ofauthoritarian leaders does
differ to some extent, the kindof essence of the hierarchy of
those that have power and accessand the rest is so similar.
(13:54):
I mean, the whole goal of ourconversation today is to really
focus, then, on what you andother activists have done in
response to this type ofoppression.
I mean, can you tell us alittle bit about when you first
got involved as an activist?
You know you were a teenager.
What did that look like andwhat sort of risks did that
(14:15):
involve for you as a young womanbeginning to stand up to this
type of brutality?
Farida Nabourema (14:22):
If you allow me, before I answer that
question, I would like toprovide a little bit of
background, but believe me, Iwouldn't be too long.
The first question you ask isabout how did people resist or
what did they do as a result ofthis.
My activism wouldn't have beenpossible without that of my
father, because he himself hasbeen an activist for decades and
(14:43):
it was his arrest in 2003that's kicked me into politics
out of anger and frustration andfear.
But my father's activismhimself wouldn't have been
possible without that of mygrandfather.
Actually, my grandfather wasalso an activist and my
grandfather was an activistagainst colonial rule and,
interestingly, when I said atthe beginning of this podcast,
(15:06):
that go to returnism we see inTogo has its roots in the
colonial system when the Frenchwere colonizing Togo.
Togo was initially a Germancolony but then was divided
following the German in loosingwhat were one between Britain
and French and French.
Togo is what we know as Togotoday, as the British Togo land,
(15:27):
united with the Gold Coast fromGhana.
But under the French rule, itwas illegal to not stop and
salute a white person.
Whenever an African personcrosses them on the street, they
can report you for not greetingthem and you can be arrested
and flogged, severely flogged,and embarrassed publicly for
(15:50):
that.
And my grandfather was arrestedfor not greeting a white man
and he was arrested.
He was tied to a tree like ananimal.
He was flogged and he was leftthere.
And he took a public schoolteacher, a local, to see his
suffering and to plea on hisbehalf for him to get released.
(16:13):
And my grandfather, as agesture of thank you, became
very close to that teacher whointroduced him to the
independent struggle by makinghim understand that if we get
our independence, he wouldn'thave to salute any white man
anymore and he wouldn't have tobe tortured because he refused
to salute a white man.
And that whole personality cultthat Yadima has created was
(16:38):
derived from the way the localcolonial rulers were ruling
their communities.
They wanted to presentthemselves as being superior to
the Africans and the localsthere.
So this is what led my dad intoactivism, because my
grandfather spent years inprison when he eventually joined
the independence struggle.
As a result of him being inprison, one of his sons
(17:01):
contracted Rubella and he wasrejected from the hospital
because there was another lawstating that the children of
people fighting for independenceshould not be allowed in
schools and in hospitals becausethese were presented as the
benefits of colonialism.
So the saying was that if youdon't want colonialism, you
(17:22):
shouldn't enjoy any benefits ofthe colonialism.
So your children can go to thehospitals.
And my uncle died and as aresult of that and it was a very
traumatic experience for my dadbecause he was this younger one
and he saw him dying and theywere helpless and there was
nothing they could do about itand he became an activist and
(17:45):
went through the same cycle ofprison, out in and out.
And it wasn't until I was 13that I became aware of this,
because I was younger back thenand my mom was really good at
not letting us know, at hidingit, but when I was 13, it
happened in front of us.
I was a little more mature and Iwas older and this took,
something was happening, andthis is how I became involved as
(18:08):
an activist myself, and it issomething that, once you start,
you find it difficult to stop,because initially, political
meetings in Togo were banned andmy father was arrested in 2003
during a political gathering.
So they had codes amongthemselves whenever they wanted
to meet and they would meet atone of their friend's house for
their political meetings and asa kid he always used to send me
(18:32):
around to tell people we aremeeting at this person's place
for food, for dinner, andinitially I didn't understand
there was something behind it.
But right after he was releasedfrom prison I realized he got
in trouble because of thosemeetings.
So I started following himwithout him knowing.
Then, when he was done, he'llcome out of the meeting and
we'll find this wedding outsideand like, what are you doing
(18:54):
here?
It's late, like sometimes itwas over 8pm or 9pm, and in Togo
you don't get out at this timeof the day.
So he realized that preventingme from following him wasn't a
solution.
You would rather have me gowith him and ensure my safety
than forbidding me fromfollowing him, and then I'll
still find a way to sneak outand go there.
(19:15):
So that's how I startedfollowing my dad to political
meetings and through thosemeetings I learned a lot about
the different grievances peoplewere fighting against and what
was bringing them together.
And I realized that these peoplewere doing this at a great risk
, knowing very much that theycould die as a result of it, and
(19:36):
unfortunately I know many ofthem who have died following
arrest and torture in prisons,and the one case that hurts me
the most is that the youngestprisoner in that history.
She was 8 months old when shewas arrested, with her mom and
my dad.
They were all placed in thesame cell.
Her name was Olivia and I havealways hoped that she will grow
(20:00):
up and I will tell her the storyabout how it all happened, and
unfortunately she passed away acouple of years ago and she
never had to experience thatfreedom either.
So these are things that make meache a lot to know that people
were born, grew up in thatatmosphere of fear and torture
(20:21):
and abuse and they die and theylive the world like that and
they never get a chance toexperience justice and freedom.
But at the same time, it alsokeeps me going, because they
have been many times where therepression is hard.
Even though I'm not physicallyin Togo, their tasks come in
multiple ways and in multipleforms.
You feel like giving up and youget tired, but then I remember
(20:45):
my plea, my commitments and mypromise to those who have fallen
that I will keep fighting sothat one day they get justice,
and it reminds me that the veryleast I can do, because I'm
lucky to still be alive is touse whatever means and resources
that I have to raise awarenesson the abuse people are facing
in Togo and to mobilizeresources to support the
(21:08):
struggle to bring an end to thisdealership in Togo.
Marie Berry (21:11):
Wow, frida.
I just that's a lot ofheaviness right, and just thank
you for bringing baby Oliviainto the conversation.
You know what a tragedy and areminder of the stakes of this
work.
So thank you for sharing that,thank you, Mary.
(21:34):
Tell us about what the work haslooked like for you.
What is the work looked like?
I mean, you said you startedwhen you were 13.
I mean you were a kid followingyour dad around to these
meetings, and how did it growfrom there to become such a
massive part of your life?
Honestly, I feel like.
Farida Nabourema (21:53):
Now that I'm older and more experienced, I
realize that a lot of myreactions were results of trauma
and anger, a lot of anger, myinability to be able to help
people really needed help, and Iwas obsessed with the struggle
to some extent where nothingelse mattered for me in my life,
(22:16):
because I felt like there isnothing more important than
freeing toggle from that regimethat is preventing millions of
people from living a decent life.
That struggle, right from thebeginning, came with a lot of
backlashes, and the very firstbacklash came from my inner
circle, my family.
(22:37):
But I was lucky that my dad,being the stubborn activist he
is, has always been not only aninspiration but a source of
comfort for when the backlashesare so severe that he realized
people are going too far, and hewill talk to me and make me
understand that these are allpart of the struggle.
(22:59):
To some extent he normalizes it.
It has advantages anddisadvantages to normalize abuse
, but at least he helped meunderstand that I wasn't the
only activist that have facedthis type of repression, and
some have actually faced farmore than that.
It has been constantly waking upevery morning and asking
(23:20):
yourself if it is worth it andthen convincing yourself that it
is definitely worth it.
And the second you step out,the entire world reminds you
that you're wasting your time.
You're putting your life atrisk for nothing.
You're going to get killed orgo to prison.
You don't think about your mombecause she's going to suffer as
a result of this.
You're a selfish person becauseyou don't put your family first
(23:41):
, or you don't put your parentsfirst, or from the sexist
comments.
You're a woman.
You should just find a husbandand have babies.
You should just find somethingto do with your life in the
fashion industry or anythingelse that is projected as being
the only acceptable forms ofactivities women can engage
(24:03):
themselves in.
So I found myself in a situationwhere I was constantly fighting
people that were supposed to beon our side, people who were
victims of dictatorship, likemyself, but who believe that it
is because of those of us whoexpose the regime that their
lives are in danger.
(24:24):
And there is a famous sentencethat my dad keeps sharing since
I was a kid.
To me he said when he was inprison in 1979, that was way
before I was arrested my mom andher were dating.
At the time they were notmarried yet, and my mom told her
, if you don't provoke thebeehives, the bees will not bite
(24:44):
you, because she believed thathim writing against the regime
was provoking the regime and foras long as you leave them alone
you'll be fine.
But we have countless of casesof people who were actually
extremely good citizensaccording to the regime's own
book, meaning they do everythingright and they still became
(25:08):
victims of the regime.
Because when there isabsolutely no rule of law, it
doesn't matter if you're doingthe right thing, you will still
end up being on the wrong side.
It's all because the system isflawed and you can just become
an unlucky citizen and end uppaying the price for that.
So people are taught in oursystem to see activists as
(25:32):
enemies and I recall at thebeginning one of the people
referred to my mom as theactivist mom.
When people tell her are youthe mom of the activist?
She used to be so outragedbecause activism was seen as a
delinquency, as terrorism.
In fact, activists werearrested and taken from
(25:55):
neighborhood to neighborhood bythe military.
They would call people out tocome and stone them and chant
very mean words to themterrorists, criminals.
So growing up in thatenvironment the worst thing that
can happen to any of the kidsis to be an activist, and I had
to battle loved ones feelingthat way to the point where, for
(26:17):
almost a decade now, so many ofmy immediate family members I
don't have any relationship withthem, I don't even know what's
happening in their life, becausethey were so afraid of my
activism that they would rathernot even know I exist than to
have anything whatsoever to dowith me.
But today, thanks to socialmedia, things are changing.
(26:39):
I belong to one of the veryfirst generation actually the
first generation of Togulisactivists using social media for
activism and technically calledthe cyber activists and the
Togulis government owns worldcyber criminals because activism
is so good to the time andbelonging to that generation has
allowed us to demystifyactivism in so many ways, and
(27:02):
today I'm proud to see youngpeople coming to me and telling
me for real we are so inspiredby your bravery and what you're
doing, we want to work with you,we want to be an activist.
I am extremely humbled andreally honored to be along with
that generation that is actuallychanging the norms, that is
(27:23):
demystifying social engagement,civic engagement and activism
overall in Togul, and I call ita liberation from fear.
For a long time, people wereafraid that fear.
They have been overcoming itthanks to the work of tremendous
and amazing, courageousactivists for many decades.
(27:44):
Unfortunately, many of them haveleft us, but today it feels
good to see the result, becausethey live in an era where there
was no way for them to know ifpeople were listening, if people
were supporting them, if peoplewere approving what they were
doing, if their sacrifices wereworth it.
At least we can, from socialmedia comments to people
(28:05):
responding to protest calls forpeople signing petitions.
Back in the days in 2011, whenI first launched the movement,
we put out a petition.
The majority of the people wereafraid of putting their names
on the petition, even in thediaspora, because they were
afraid that if the governmentfind their names on the
petitions, them and theirfamilies will get in trouble.
But today, people signpetitions, the protest, and I am
(28:29):
lucky to belong to a generationthat is witnessing that change,
and it just makes me feel sograteful to those who have kept
the light and the flame of thestruggle alive for decades,
since 1967.
Absolutely.
Marie Berry (28:45):
I mean in all of the things that you've shared
with us so far.
I mean the importance of thatlegacy, those that came before
right.
I mean not only in terms ofinspiring and motivating the
work that you do, you know,standing on the shoulders of
your father and your grandfather, but also in understanding that
, like the battles that we'refighting today are not created
(29:06):
yesterday.
They are deeply rooted in thesesystems of colonial right, of
the kind of the violenceembedded in the colonial project
and the way in which I mean Oneof the other things you talked
about in other contexts is theway in which the patriarchal
order of Togolese society wasalso shaped during that colonial
(29:29):
period.
Farida Nabourema (29:30):
Absolutely Freeing women in Africa is
literally decolonizingpatriarchy.
Today, the unfortunate thing isthat people, whenever they hear
about feminism or women's right, the first sentence that comes
out of their mouth is it's aWestern concept especially in
(29:50):
Togo and many African countries.
You guys are importing Westernconcepts to Africa.
It doesn't apply to Africa.
But the funny thing is that themisogyny is actually what's
they imported from the West andthey don't realize that a lot of
the laws that we have todaythat are detrimental to Togolese
(30:11):
women are imported fromcolonialism.
And I'll give you a very simpleexample From my mom's tribe.
They have a system where womengets to name their children.
You take your mom's family'sname, you don't take your
father's name, and from yourname people can tell from which
community, from which villageyour mom comes from.
And what was the basis for this?
(30:32):
It came from the very simplefact that the only true parents,
biological parents you know hisroles is your mom.
And by taking your father'sname, what if you find out in 20
years that you have a differentdad?
It happens, because it happenseverywhere.
So will you have to change yourname?
And on that basis, that tribeand many other tribes in Togo
(30:58):
and in West Africa in generalinherited from their maternal
families.
You inherit from your mom'ssiblings and your maternal
grandparents and not yourpaternal ones, because their
understanding was number one.
Yeah, at least you know forsure that that family is your
family.
And number two, they wanted toensure that if the father dies,
(31:21):
your children do not be in asituation where your paternal
family takes everything from you.
At least your mom's family canprovide something.
Instead, you always know youhave a home in your mom's family
, but then on that basis, incolonial Togo and after the
independence of Togo, togoesewomen could not give their
citizenship to their children,and this was imported from the
(31:46):
French family code, the Code dela famille, which is the legal
legislations around family law,and in the French family law
women could not give theircitizenship to children.
So traditionally, if I have achild, my child is a full
citizen from my community.
He has my name and now legally,because of colonialism, I as a
(32:12):
mother cannot pass on mycitizenship or my name to my
child.
And they don't realize it whenyou tell them.
This is where the misogynist iscoming from.
So now we have laws that arerestricting women that we didn't
have in the past, or at leastfor communities that were very
patriarchal, because you havetried to meet that many
communities in Africa was alsovery misogynistic and
(32:32):
patriarchal.
There were no legal frameworksaround it.
It was more of what was said inthe community and people are
bad by it.
But there was no going to jailbecause there's a law preventing
you, as a woman, to do ABCD Incolonial Togo.
And still, 1993, togoese womenhave to fight for the right to
(32:57):
own a passport without theauthorization of a male sibling
or a male parent or spouse,because in colonial era for
women to leave the country theyneed a handwritten authorization
called Otoizasum maritalmarital, sparsal authorization
allowing you to obtain apassport and allowing you to
(33:18):
travel out of your country.
Back in the days women couldjust travel whatever they feel
like it and when they weremarried and they no longer
wanted the marriage, they justpicked your stuff and they leave
.
Now we have laws preventingwomen from doing that.
So there are a lot of residuesfrom the colonial system that
are embedded in today's laws.
But because they have beenthere for so long now people
(33:40):
come to think that those aretraditions and they'll think
that it is the liberty of womenand the freedom of women that is
a foreign concept, that theydon't want it.
But it's rather the opposite.
It is the misogynistic law themisogynistic law sorry, I'm
saying it's different that arecompletely foreign to our
(34:03):
culture.
Marie Berry (34:03):
Oh my gosh.
I mean I think we see so manyechoes of this in so many places
where we do, by looking at thedeep history, that the gender
relations of the present and thekind of real divisions between
men and women and the kind oflegal codifications of that
gender discrimination are notsomething that is always
(34:26):
existing, absolutely Right.
It's so easy to assume thatwhat exists is what will always
exist, and I think one of thethings that really motivates
this podcast is to think aboutuntangling and troubling that
idea that what the world willbecome doesn't have to look like
it always looked and in fact itcan look like some of the more
(34:48):
imaginative, creative, radicalexperiments and kind of bold
visions on the margins, ratherthan the kind of status quo
which takes these systems asinevitable and as fixed.
So what do we do about this,rita?
I mean, what are you doing?
How do you tackle thatsimultaneous struggle of
(35:10):
authoritarian dictatorship andmisogynistic, sort of deeply
patriarchal social dynamics thatobviously factor into the
emboldening of thatauthoritarian regime and
certainly of the regime's manytentacles?
The security forces, thesavages, as you put it, that
(35:31):
security force, thoseinstitutions that are charged
with defending the regime?
I mean, what is the work thenthat you're doing to really
tackle these systems of violence.
Farida Nabourema (35:41):
Interestingly, the more you navigate through
this struggle, the more realizethat everything is
interconnected into time.
Initially, when I set as anactivist, it was specifically
against authoritarian regime.
Then, down the line, I realizethat the returnism is deeply
rooted in colonialism and thecolonialism is rooted in
imperialism and capitalism, andthe misogyny are also derived
(36:06):
from this.
It's a system that you have tocompletely dismantle and it's a
very tedious and long anddifficult task.
But how do I go about it?
For me, the first one iseducation.
The more people know and themore people understand it makes
a huge difference, because,unfortunately, our educational
(36:27):
system is extremely colonized.
We haven't decolonized oureducation in Togo.
Till day, we are told in Togothat the person who abolished
slavery is this very nice Frenchguy called Victor Chouchet, and
I grew up believing it andmillions of Togolizian people
grew up believing it, andmillions of Francophone Africans
(36:49):
grew up believing that slaverywas abolished single-handedly by
a single French man.
There was never a singlereference about the struggle of
people in Haiti, in Guyana, inthe United States, of how
slavery revolted.
And the Nat Turners, theToussaint Louverture, the
Jacques Desalins?
(37:09):
We have never heard a single ofthose names.
Slavery was started by whitepeople and then, when they
realized it wasn't, neitherstopped and capitalism was
started by white people, andwhen they were not happy about
it, they stopped it.
So, literally, our educationsystem prevents us from
accessing the truth and truehistory.
Number one thing that I havebeen doing has been writing.
(37:32):
Over the past 10 years, I'vewritten more than 500 articles.
I try as much as I am able toto do that.
In the past, I used to also useother channels, such as
WhatsApp and YouTube, to givepeople facts, and I am actually
revolted each time I share thosefacts and I receive hundreds of
messages of people saying wedidn't know that, and I feel as
(37:54):
angry as they felt, because it'slike your whole life is a scam,
because it's just likeeverything I've been taught
about myself, my people, myhistory, my nation is false.
Then, explaining things in adifferent context, because
sometimes, because conversationsare not even started, people
only reflect what they were toldwas the right thing, and when
(38:19):
you provide a deep analysis anddeconstruct things for them,
they understand.
One example I give is the factthat my mom's grandmom was a
construction worker.
She used to build homes andpaint homes from scratch, and
that was her job.
And back in the days, buildinghomes was women's job.
(38:41):
Women were the one building thehomes, they were the one doing
the painting, they were the onedoing the plumbry and everything
.
And when colonialism came, theywould only recruit the men into
the construction sector.
And today, by over 95%,construction workers in Togo are
male and if you're a woman andyou want to venture into that,
they feel like what kind ofwoman are you?
You're not a good African woman.
(39:02):
But the real African women forcenturies were building their
own homes.
It wasn't until very recently,because my mom's grandma died in
1980.
So that's barely 30 years sinceshe passed away.
So we have a generation ofthose women who are still alive
today, who grew up buildinghomes, who didn't have any
segregation when it comes to thelabor sector.
(39:27):
Women could be traders, theycould be teachers, they could be
healthcare workers, they couldbe in construction, in fields
and sectors that were deemedcompletely masculine in the
Western world, because when thecolonialists came they changed
everything, and today we havemultiple campaigns promoting
women's education and I feeloutraged whenever I see those
(39:49):
campaigns portraying Africansocieties that are so
misogynistic to the point wherethey don't want to send their
daughters to school, they wantto send the boys to school and
keep the daughters at home.
But the reality is that whenthe first colonial schools were
opened, they were not takinggirls.
It started as the colonialschools refusing to enroll girls
(40:11):
in the first place.
Then, eventually, when theystarted taking the girls, there
were no jobs available for thegirls.
So the parents coming from poorcommunities felt like, if we
have enough money to send onekid to school, well, what I said
, the one kid that we know willget a job and it's the world.
So those are changes and peoplehad to adapt to situations
(40:34):
which created a gender disparitywe have in education today, but
it's portrayed as beingtypically African, typically
primitive, but it's not rootedin that.
So they're constructing theneeds through education.
In addition, organizingcommunities.
Organizing communities bycreating small groups of people,
(40:56):
young people, who come togetherand debate around those issues,
so that we live in a societywhere everybody's voice matters,
where we bring in differentideas and see ways we can
challenge the system at multiplelevels.
And we do this through art, wedo this through music, we do
this through streets, actions,community service and many
(41:17):
others.
Marie Berry (41:18):
Can you give us an example of that, how you're
organizing people through artand through straight movements
and things like that?
Farida Nabourema (41:25):
So we have a film, a documentary coming up,
but before those documentaries,one of the things we were doing
was to actually organize I don'tknow how to say the other in
English the place in communitieswhere we use fiction to tell
the real stories, becauseusually when you do it under
(41:46):
fiction you get less in troublethan when you're doing it in
real life.
You can all put it under thebanner of acting.
So we had those.
And then we had reading clubswhere we assign books for each
club in different communitiesfor young people to actually
come and read.
We have recently launched whatwe are calling a digital
(42:08):
democracy program, and I reallywanted to see this because I
believe that the internet hasplayed a huge role in helping us
organize and because dictatorsare fighting back, we as
citizens have to also take astep further and to organize
digitally.
So the digital democracyprogram has three components.
(42:28):
The first one is that wecreated a community of young
people who we are training, whohave been trained to train
others on how to use socialmedia for social justice.
So they train them on how tocreate hashtags, how to use
Facebook and Twitter and usethem in different channels, how
to create stories and how toshare those stories among the
(42:50):
communities.
Then we have another one, whichis about financial liberation,
because, in total, thegovernment have a huge control
over the financial system andthey say in French la hajjol,
you know the like?
Money is the nerve of the world.
So literally, spending moneyhas been a problem and people
are now afraid to donate and tocontribute to fundraising
(43:11):
because they don't want to getin trouble with the regime.
So now we have explored usingthe Bitcoin as an alternative
for fundraising in Togo and wecreated a special program called
EGAE, which in our languagemeans new money, and we are
training young people,especially women, about how to
trade Bitcoin asset, bitcoin asa form of payments, invest in
(43:33):
Bitcoin in many other ways,because we believe that we need
to be part of that monetaryrevolution.
But then, at the same time, wehave to have an alternative to
the government financial system,because we can trade Bitcoin
asset forms of payments anddonations with Bitcoin in all
anonymity, while preserving thedata and information of our
members.
(43:54):
And in addition to that, we haveinvested in a mobile
application, and the applicationactually uses the mesh system,
and this weekend we have theidea of having something like
this because we have witnessedinternet shutdowns in Togo in
the past, sometimes social mediashutdown.
Whenever we announce, thecitizens announce a protest, the
(44:16):
government will shut down allmeans of communication, thinking
that by doing this they willhave all the protests and create
fear and prevent communicationamong organizers.
So we are spirits using themesh system for communication
only among some activists, andnow we have developers working
for us to build a whole app onwhich we can connect thousands
(44:37):
of people without the internet.
This will reduce costs in termsof accessing a messaging system
and it will also prevent thegovernment from having any form
of control of our communicationmeans.
So if you cut the telephone andthe internet, they are fine,
they can do it.
We also have an alternative.
So the digital democracyprogram is something that we
(44:59):
hope will help us align techwith our struggle for democracy
in Togo.
Marie Berry (45:05):
That's remarkable.
I mean the internet shutdowns,of course, and the tight control
of particular sites is just anddigital surveillance, and
absolutely it's becoming thekind of calling card of all
authoritarian regimes around theworld, and I think what you're
doing here is a reallyinnovative way of trying to work
(45:25):
within that reality butcircumvent, while also
protecting the people that areinvolved in this work.
Farida Nabourema (45:34):
While the Bitcoin provides an opportunity
for governments to invest infunds, which they have been
doing in many forms, it's alsoproviding an alternative to
citizens to also raise funds,keep their money in a safe way
that the government cannotcontrol or access Exactly.
(45:54):
So it's for us to havealternatives, because there's
one thing that I preach in myteams and my community is that
when the government shoots onebullet, they kill one person at
a time, but when we shoot withthe digital space, the internet,
we touch millions of people ata time.
So we have technology on ourside to touch spaces, to enter
(46:18):
communities, to reach peoplethat we couldn't have reached in
the past, and we should be ableto use that technology to
innovate in our activism.
We have to be a step ahead ofthem.
It wasn't until 2020 and 2021that the whole world started
focusing on Pegases.
Togo was one of the very firstusers on the continent, but
(46:41):
before then we already gotdozens and dozens of TogoLiz
activists and journalists tradeon that Pegases.
So knowing and anticipating thethreats and finding solutions
to counter them and findingalternatives is the best way for
us to ensure we continue thisstruggle and we eventually win
it.
So, for me, whatever is goingto increase our chances of
(47:03):
mobilizing resources andempowering people in this
struggle is very much welcomed,as long as it's not illegal.
Even if it's illegal in Togo,it depends on the type of
legalities we could stillchallenge.
But the most important thingfor us is to keep mobilizing
resources and strengtheningpeople so that we eventually win
(47:26):
this struggle one day.
Marie Berry (47:27):
Absolutely.
You have a remarkable abilityto find those alternative
structures and to build them ifthey don't already exist, and it
seems like you've been doingthat for you.
Thank you.
Farida Nabourema (47:39):
I'm still learning too.
The good thing about socialactivism is that there is not a
single struggle that you areactually leading that people
haven't fought in the past,because the issue that we are
facing in terms of oppression,abuse, dictatorship, misogyny,
(48:00):
colonialism have existed for aslong as we could remember and
people have done amazingly wellin different contexts and some
have overcome those systems.
And back in 2016, when Idecided to dedicate my focus
entirely on this activismbecause I was living in the US
(48:20):
back then, I lived in the US foreight years before deciding to
move back, initially to Togo.
I went back to Togo at firstand didn't turn out well and had
to leave again.
My goal was to not go back tothe US, but to stay around and
to seek as much help as possiblefrom activists from other
African countries that werefighting the terrorists or that
have fought the terrorists andwere successful.
(48:42):
And I was lucky.
I had an amazing team thatreally believes in me, because
they have seen how dedicated Iwas to the struggle, and they
supported this venture in manyways by purchasing tickets for
my flat to go to other countriesto meet activists from there,
just to exchange from them andtry to find out what they were
doing new or different from usin Togo, because we felt like in
(49:05):
Togo we were just cursed,because we were like we have
been fighting this for decadesand countries have been winning
and we are still at the sameplace.
So we felt like maybe there'ssomething people are doing
different that we don't know andwe should try to approach them
to find out how they were doingit.
So in that effort, I travel allover the continent.
I started with the Gambia,because I used to protest with
(49:26):
Gambian activists in WashingtonDC every weekend and then they
succeeded.
And then Nigeria and Ghana andTanzania and Bukina Faso,
senegal, and by going through, Iused to just buy a ticket and
show up and try to find acontact there or somebody who
knows somebody there, and Iasked to speak to movement
(49:48):
leaders, activists andorganizers and I'll spend days
or weeks in those countries justto have meetings with them and
to learn from them.
It was just a knowledge sharingopportunity and whatever I
learned from them, I got theresults and I go back to my team
and I said this is what theyare doing that could be helpful
to us, and that's how we endedup creating the Togo Lease Civil
League because initially weonly had the former Go movement
(50:11):
and the former Go movementwasn't registered.
So fundraising outside of Togowas a little difficult for
countries where people want todonate to a tax exempt
organization.
So we decided to register TogoLease Civil League.
As a result of that, and evenmeeting people that introduced
me to Human Rights Foundation soI could speak at the Oslo
(50:32):
Freedom Forum, it was trueAnother activist that I met in
the Gambia that introduced me tosomebody else who introduced me
to them.
So I realized that networkingis the most powerful tool in
social justice and luckily, whenyou invited me at EGLE at the
University of Denver, I alsomade wonderful connections there
(50:54):
.
You won't believe it, butthanks to one of the
participants of EGLE, we wereable to find a good lawyer in
Israel who helped us file aclaim at the Department of
Defense in Israel to open up allthe archives about Israeli gun
sales and weapon sales to thegovernment of Togo.
It's incredible.
(51:15):
When I came to my team and Isaid we got a lawyer in Israel,
they're like for real.
I'm sure we are afraid of you.
How in the world did you get alawyer in Israel?
I said I have connections, butthese are amazing connections
that I made through otheractivists like myself, in
multiple spaces and ideas.
Some of them you just have toadd a little twist to it to suit
(51:37):
your own environment.
But don't be afraid to seek thehelp, and I have been receiving
a lot of.
There are many, countlesssuggestions and proposals and
support that we receive frompeople.
Some of them, we can fulfillall of them, but those that we
think are completely necessaryto us, we just go for it.
So what I will say is I cannotclaim that I am so smart that I
(52:03):
came up with all those ideas bymyself.
But I was lucky to be in spaceswhere people shared some
innovations and people shared.
They were generous to sharetheir network with me and
connect me with the right peoplewho helped us create those
programs and launch thosedifferent initiatives.
And I'm sure we're only gettingstarted.
Marie Berry (52:24):
Oh, frida, I love that so much and I just think it
really underscores the power ofconnection and of networks and
of the way in which we are allfacing similar systems of
oppression that uphold eachother and that it will take a
collective sort of.
It will take many, many, manysmall and middle and large scale
(52:48):
collective initiatives that arefocused on justice, that are
focused on freedom, that arefocused on eradicating some of
these oppressive systems inorder for all of us to face the
possibility of a more freefuture.
I believe that so deeply and Ithink your work really tests to
that.
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