August 4, 2023 • 54 mins
Our special guest today is Danielle Assis, a profound journalist and campaigner hailing from Brazil - a woman whose heart beats for climate justice, women's leadership, and of course, the impactful Amazonia de Pei project. She navigates us through the tumultuous political landscape of her homeland, where the recent elections saw President Bolsonaro locking horns with former President Lula.
A pertinent theme that emerges in our conversation is the intertwining of religion and politics in Brazil, drawing chilling parallels with the rising right-wing extremism in the U.S and Brazil under President Bolsonaro. Danielle doesn't shy away from sharing her fears or hopes, shedding light on how progressive activists are countering these looming threats. Our focus then shifts to the Amazonian de Pei project, aimed at creating a safe haven for the Amazon rainforest by dedicating over 50 million hectares of public forest to indigenous folks, quilombolas, and conservation units.From discussing the complexities of Brazilian activism to its potential for ushering change, the episode is a rollercoaster ride through Danielle's activist journey. Brace yourself for an enlightening dialogue that not only offers a unique perspective into the world of Brazilian activism but also serves as a powerful testament to activism's transformative potential.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marie Berry (00:03):
Hello everyone, my guest today is Danielle Assis, a
journalist and campaigner fromBrazil who has mobilized for
climate justice, abortion rights, women's leadership and more
throughout her entire life.
She is currently dedicated tothe Amazonia de Pei project, a
campaign to designate 57 millionhectares of public land in the
(00:24):
Amazon rainforest to indigenouscommunities and conservation
units.
I spoke to Danny in mid-October2022, right after the elections
between President Bolsonaro andformer President Lula had gone
to a runoff.
At that pivotal moment inhistory, the stakes felt very
high.
Danny, like many otheractivists, had been mobilizing
(00:47):
for years against the ravages ofBolsonaro's far-right
government, and the prospects ofhim potentially winning another
term had everyone deeplyalarmed.
As you'll hear throughout ourconversation, danny's activism
is grounded in a deep connectionto others, to community, to
land and to the better future wecan build together.
As she wrote once, despite ourdifferences, we inhale, exhale
(01:12):
and feel the pain of the worldin ways far more similar than we
often imagine.
We connect, above all, throughtears, fear, exhaustion and all
the things that have no name.
I spoke to Danny in mid-October2022, right after the elections
between President Bolsonaro andformer President Lula had gone
(01:34):
to a runoff in Brazil.
At that pivotal moment inhistory.
The stakes felt very high andDanny, like many other activists
, had been mobilizing for yearsagainst the ravages of
Bolsonaro's far-right government, and the prospects of him
winning another term hadeveryone deeply alarmed.
A few weeks later, however,lula defeated Bolsonaro in the
(01:56):
runoff and Danny, like manyother activists and advocates
for democracy and human rightsacross the world, celebrated.
During our conversation, I'llnote that Danny sounds a little
bit tinny or like she's in awell due to some technical
limitations, but her wisdomshines through, so I promise it
(02:17):
will be worth it.
Danny, tell us a little bitabout you personally as an
activist and in these types ofmovements.
Like what does it meant for youand your kind of as a woman, as
an individual, as a youngactivist?
Like what has this work?
(02:39):
How has it impacted your life?
Dani Assis (02:41):
I feel like, as I said, ever since I started
getting involved in politicswhen I was 19 years old, I feel
like my whole life is shapedaround it somehow.
So my professional life, forsure like I've been working as
an activist ever since.
I've worked in politicalparties, I've worked in social
(03:02):
movements, I've worked inelectro campaigns, I've worked
in NGOs, so everything is aboutsocial impact in a way.
It's about activism in a way,and I have no intentions of
getting out of it.
I feel like I have to have thispurpose in my professional life
.
I could not work for just anycompany or anything that does
(03:25):
not have a purpose.
I think, first of all, myprofessional life is impacted by
it.
I feel like my academic life isimpacted by it, so I have a
master's.
I graduated in journalism in2018, I think yeah and then I
did my master's last year and mydissertation in my undergrad
(03:49):
was about politics.
It was about social movements,it was about the occupation
movements of the university, andmy dissertation on my master's
was about politics.
I did a master's in politicalcommunication and my
dissertation was about womenpoliticians in Brazil and how it
is to be a feminist during bothmy government.
So what I study is aboutpolitics and it's about activism
(04:12):
what I work is about politics,it's about activism.
I feel, my social life is also.
It involves a little bit aboutaround it because, as I said,
the people you meet when youwere doing your direct taxes,
like occupying your school,occupying your university- they
become your family.
(04:33):
They become people you trust somuch people you spend through
the good and the bad, thevictories and other defeats.
They become people you trustand you love and you care very
much and spend most of your timewith them, either because of
work, either because of youractivism outside of work, either
(04:54):
because you just love to bearound people who share the same
values as you.
So I feel like my whole life isshaped around politics and
sometimes it can feel a bit okay, how can I get out of it?
How can I alienate myself a bit?
I also want to go to the beachand not think about politics and
not be around people from workor people who are from the
(05:17):
movement.
Marie Berry (05:18):
Totally.
Dani Assis (05:19):
But at the same time , as I was saying before, it
hurts to get out of the bubble.
So I like my bubble.
I don't know if I want to leaveit.
I like to be around people whostart to think that it's just me
and I like to.
I like to live this fully.
I think for some people, theyhave no choice if they are
(05:39):
political or not.
I feel like some people and somecountries specifically,
everything is political, likethe price you pay for the bus is
political, the price you payfor the bread you eat is
political, the people you loveis political, the people you
(06:00):
work with they're all political.
So we are political as well andwe cannot step away from it.
We do not have this right, Ithink.
But also, yeah, trying to findsome joy in everything and try
to actually understand how youcan be political but also be
(06:21):
safe and being a good mentalhealth state.
I think you can do both.
I think we can have boundaries.
I grew up in the agri-businessculture, so basically it's
grounded in very conservativevalues and very conservative
ways of seeing politics and ofseeing life.
(06:42):
But ever since I was verylittle because I am a woman who
loves other women I learned thatI was bigger than that city and
that I wanted to see the world.
I wanted to do other things.
I wanted to be close to peoplewho I think that think more
similar like I do.
(07:03):
So I moved to Brasilia when Iwas 17 years old.
Brasilia is the capital city ofBrazil and it's two hours away
from my hometown and it's whereI first got involved with
politics and first realized thatwe can actually make an impact
and do social change andactually change all this
(07:23):
conservative values that we grewup in, that we do not have to
just conform to them.
we have ways of organizing andof acting collectively to change
things.
So I first I started studyingjournalism at the University of
Brasilia, and communication forme, always felt like a tool for
(07:43):
social change, because it's howwe can express ourselves and how
we can communicate to eachother and tell them how we're
feeling and how we want to see adifferent world.
And I started college in a verycomplicated moment, in Brazil
as well, so I started college in2015, in 2016, we had a coup in
(08:06):
the country.
The first female president everelected in the country was
impeached in a process that it'svery, very complicated to
explain, but it's legallycontested everywhere in the
country and as time goes by, wecan see that it was really not
fair at all with this woman andthe political problems escalated
(08:31):
really quickly.
So I just moved from myhometown, which is very
conservative and very difficultand politics is not happening at
all, and I got to Brasilia, thecenter of the power in Brazil,
so the capital of whereeverything happens in terms of
politics in the country.
(08:52):
It was a city built for thatpurpose.
So, it's a new city and wasplanned to be the capital and in
that very harsh politicalmoment of the country, so
everything was so new to me.
Yeah, I was like okay, I have anew life here, I can start
(09:13):
things over, I can be myselfhere, I can surround myself with
wonderful people, I can dopolitics, I can do
communications, I can do all ofthese amazing things that I
didn't know I was able to do.
But we have this politicalmoment that is very complicated
and I think it was the start ofeverything that we're seeing
right now in the country.
(09:34):
So it was 2016 and the newgovernment that just got
empowered and it willillegitimate is that a word?
Illegitimate government isstarting implementing some
austerity policies in thecountry and a lot of budget cuts
and education.
So I was studying in the publicuniversity In Brazil.
(09:55):
Public universities are verystrong.
They are the best ones in thecountry and they are free and
it's amazing.
But at the same time, there's nobudget.
So the researchers, theprofessors, the academic staff
everyone suffers a lot from thelack of money to actually do
things.
So there are amazing meetings,amazing structure, but, at the
(10:16):
same time, lack of resources todo everything that we want to do
and that we would be able to doif we had this money.
And with budget cuts andeducation that the new
government had announced, itwasn't possible to actually make
the university survive.
That's what we're facing rightnow.
Public universities in Brazilare I don't know.
(10:36):
They might be destroyed becauseof lack of money, and it
started in 2016 because of theseausterity policies.
So this unit movement from theuniversity and all over the
country started organizing totry to to make this stop, to try
to make this policy this ohsorry, how do you say that
(10:59):
Disasterity policy not passed inthe national congress.
So there were over a hundreduniversities across the country
that occupied their buildings.
So this movement occupied thebuildings of this university all
over the country, and I wasinvolved in the occupation that
happened at the University of.
Marie Berry (11:18):
Brasil.
Dani Assis (11:20):
I slept 45 days in the rectory building of the
university.
I was 19 by then and it waslike the first time I was ever
involved in those type ofpolitical tactics.
And yeah, we spent like 45 daysactually resisting in the
(11:41):
university and saying, hey, thisis our space, you're not going
to cut any budget, you're notgoing to do anything to make all
the research and all theamazing things that are being
done here, you're not going tomake it stop, because this is
our place and we want to studyand we want this place to be a
free place and a place where wecan actually learn and have
(12:03):
structure.
Marie Berry (12:05):
But in the end, tell me more about that.
I want to hear about those 45days Like what was it like?
What did you do for 45 days?
Where did you sleep?
What happened, and did peoplesurprise you at all in those
days in terms of what they endedup doing with their time or
their energy?
Dani Assis (12:23):
So basically the first day it was after a general
assembly we did at theuniversity, so there were
students from all courses,mostly undergrads, and we did
this huge assembly with morethan a thousand people
participating.
And we voted that we want tooccupy the building and that we
wouldn't be.
(12:43):
How do you say that when peoplejust stop studying?
Marie Berry (12:46):
I hope they like, if they were strike, Strikes
yeah totally.
Dani Assis (12:50):
Yeah, we would strike and we would occupy the
building because this movementwas already happening in other
universities.
So, and people always expectthe University of Brazil to be
one of the least universities todo those types of things in
Brazil, because we are in thecenter of the power.
So we are so close to theNational Congress, we are so
close to the Presidential Palace, so we are the ones that are
(13:12):
actually responsible of doingsomething, because we are in the
middle of the power of thecountry.
So everyone was expecting thisassembly to happen at the
University of Brasil, likepeople from universities in.
Rio, people from universitiesin São Paulo, people from
universities in the North.
They were like okay.
University of Brasil?
When are you doing it?
When are you doing it?
And then we did, and after thishuge assembly I think it was
(13:37):
one of the biggest of thehistory of the University
Everyone just marched to therectory building, which is like
where the administrationbuilding of the University is we
marched together and we justlike, we just like destroyed the
door and entered the buildingand yeah, and we were like more
(13:59):
than a thousand in the buildingand then we divided ourselves in
groups, like there was thesecurity group, the people that
would be in front of thebuilding to protect the
occupation and to control whoenters, who does not enter, who
can be inside, who cannot beinside.
There was the communicationgroup, which was the group, as
part of that went to thecommunication room of the
(14:23):
administration building wherethe communication of the
University happens, and westayed there.
So the communication groupoccupies the communication room
of the rectory building and wejust started like setting up our
beds.
We started calling people likepeople who are not exactly
students but like unions andother movements that were like
(14:47):
supporting the student movementsto bring food, to bring money,
to bring some mattress, to bringlike stuff so we could stay
sleeping and like painting.
Marie Berry (15:00):
Basically, at the building.
Dani Assis (15:02):
So like we started calling and other movements
started helping and bringingstuff to help the movement and I
remember like we stayed up allnight that day.
We couldn't sleep.
We were like planning how itwould be the next day.
We were planning how we wouldsleep.
We were organizing all thesectors and rooms of the rectory
(15:22):
building.
So the security group, thecommunication group, the
politics group, like people whowere articulating with the
administration how theoccupation would happen, people
that were planning the tacticsthat we would do at the National
Congress.
For instance, we had two bigprotests during the time we were
sleeping there.
During those four or five dayswe organized two big protests in
(15:45):
front of the National Congress.
So there was a groupspecifically thinking about how
this protest would happen andtake place.
There were groups that werethinking how we can bring people
from other universities and forother regions of the country to
be present in those proteststhat they as well.
So the protest would be biggerand we could have like massive
(16:08):
protests against the austeritypolicies of budgetary banks.
It was very well organized.
In the communication group wehad like different sectors, so
we had this, the people who weretaking care of the social media
of the movement.
So we, in the first day, wecreated like a logo and a visual
(16:28):
identity and a Facebook page,because at the time we used
Facebook a lot and Instagram andwe also created a radio.
So we we set up a radio like aweb radio at the meeting as well
, and we were like all the timetalking with people who were
outside and talking about howthe movement was like and how
(16:52):
the the discussions at theNational Congress about this
specific policy was being voted,and we also played some music
and we had fun and we talked alot about like because after 45
days you can involve a kind ofrelationship with all those
people that are there.
(17:13):
So also a lot of gossip, sowho's kissing who, who is living
in the other one's door, andthings like that.
So it was a very special momentfor me.
I think I feel like this iswhere I first realized that we,
even if we are livingauthoritarian moments, which was
(17:35):
the case at the time we stillcan have democracy within the
movements and we still can likecreate these safe spaces between
us.
So like it was like living aparallel reality when we were
there, because the word wasterrible and that was like no, I
(17:56):
don't know no green light forus, because we were already like
seeing that the country wasdrowning at that time, but at
the same time, we were togetherand we were building something
and we were creating a beautifulthing and we were like getting
involved with each other and wewere creating beauty,
relationships and beauty, likeamazing things.
That, at least for me, like itchanged my life.
(18:18):
It turned out I became anactivist because of that that
this is my work, this is myprofessional, my academic, my
personal life.
This is everything I am now,mostly because of those 45 days
when I was 19 years old inBrasilia.
So, yeah, I think like it,basically it's the the ground of
(18:43):
what I do right now.
Like, yeah, I came from thesocial movement and I came from
this very direct tactic and.
I came from this environmentthat, yeah, that was not
favorable for us in that moment.
That left because we couldcreate something nice from it.
Marie Berry (19:00):
I think that's really powerful.
Yeah, what was grounding yourpolitics, both in that moment,
while you were occupying thebuilding, and also what
continues to ground yourpolitics.
I mean, what is at the core ofyour work and your activism
today?
Dani Assis (19:16):
That's intense.
Yeah, what is at the core?
What?
Marie Berry (19:23):
do you?
Dani Assis (19:23):
believe in.
I feel like hope.
I feel like realizing that wehave an amazing country and that
there are many things that areworth fighting for in this
country.
Because, like most of the time,it feels like we're losers,
because most of the time we arelike, in terms of politics, we
(19:45):
cannot.
Yeah, we are losers most of thetime, but I feel like hope
grounds me.
I feel like seeing that we havesuch a rich culture, that we
have so many amazing people thatare just like the best people
in the world, like alwayssmiling, always, like working so
hard, always up to yeah, up toget out, get up and just live
(20:13):
their lives, even though it's sohard.
Marie Berry (20:15):
Yeah, for sure.
Dani Assis (20:18):
I feel like fighting for these people, fighting for
my people, I feel like my peoplegives me hope that this country
can change and that, eventhough we seem losers right now,
we actually can meet some stuff.
Marie Berry (20:32):
Oh, my gosh.
Well, tell me what's going onin Brazil right now.
I know there's obviously therewas a primary election and we're
sort of we're recording thisinterview on October 18th, so
we're between the primary andthen the subsequent election.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about what's going on, what
(20:55):
the context and what is, whatare the stakes in this current
political moment in Brazil?
Dani Assis (21:03):
Yeah, so basically after 2016, when we had the coup
, there was this far rightmovement that started brewing a
lot in the country and itreached the power democratically
in 2018.
So Bolsonaro, which is thepresident for now, he was
(21:23):
elected with more than 55million votes, which is a lot.
When you look like at thenumbers, it's a bit scary like
okay, 55 million people vote forthis guy.
It's a lot, and it shows thatit's something that has been
growing for a while, like it'snot something that just showed
(21:45):
up, it's not something thatshould surprise us.
It's something that's beingbuilt for a long time and we say
it started in 2016, but I thinkit started way, way, way before
we had this process in 2013,.
Like this massive process allaround the country that kind of
(22:06):
plants the seeds of everythingthat's going on now, like the
anti-established feeling, theanti-corruption feeling, the
feeling that things shouldchange, that they are tired of
everything that's going on,they're tired of corruption,
they are tired of I don't know alot of things going on, and the
(22:28):
solution they found was the farright and they started
organizing and they started likeactually gaining power through
institutional politics.
So it has a lot to do withreligion in Brazil.
So the evangelical religion isreally growing and it has been
(22:49):
growing a lot.
The last time we had how do yousay that it's not a poll?
well, like we, not a poll likewhen you, oh, I'm so bad at my
university, no, you're great,you're so great, like when you
(23:11):
just like start getting dataabout everyone in the country
yeah, I just know how manyCatholics how many.
Muslims yeah, so the last timewe had it it was 10 years ago
and there were eight percent ofevangelical people, and now we
(23:32):
have more than 30 percent wow,wow, so it has been growing a
lot and in a very radical view.
Like it's not.
It's not like, yeah, it's hardto talk about religion and not
be like I don't know, not have alittle bit of prejudice but,
they've been.
They've been radical and theyhave a political project for the
(23:56):
country.
So they've always said like weneed to be in the presidency, we
need to be in the nationalcongress, we need to be at power
positions so we can actuallydictate values of the society
right so Bolsonaro himself hewants to said a couple times
(24:18):
that if he could, he would makethe fight with the constitution.
For instance, he's radicallyagainst the legalization of
abortion.
He would say before the 2018election that he would rather
have a dad son than a gay sonand a lot of terrible stuff.
Yeah, and he actually did thatwhen he was in presidency the
(24:43):
last four years.
So it was just not these justdiscourse, like he would
actually implement a lot ofpolicies no that found the armed
people and that have that havebeen really egregious.
Marie Berry (24:56):
I mean, we honestly it's.
It's amazing to look at theparallels to between what Trump
and the white nationalistmovement on the far right has
meant a part of really fomentinghere in the US and what
Bolsonaro has been able to do ina similar way in Brazil and
it's you know, it's they'redifferent in a lot of ways, but
(25:18):
there's so many kind of eeriesimilarities across these
contexts and so I mean, maybeone of my questions for you is
really how have, how haveprogressive activist communities
responded to these like growingthreats from Bolsonaro, from
the far right, from this reallyreally kind of rapidly
increasing percentage ofevangelicals?
What are activists doing tocounter this and what have you
(25:42):
personally been involved with?
Dani Assis (25:44):
Yeah, so basically still talking about 2018, when
he was elected also, there was alot of progressive people that
were elected and people thatnever have been represented in
the national Congress before.
I feel I am confused right nowabout what's going on in the
(26:06):
country, so I don't know how toexplain to other people because
I'm also a bit lost.
I'm like okay, because we werehoping that this election right
now.
We were hoping that peoplewould actually change and vote
for Lula, and polls were showingthat Bolsonaro was going to
lose in the first round and wewere expecting a whole different
(26:28):
scenario from two weeks ago tonow.
Two weeks ago was the firstround of the election.
Everything just changed Likeeverything we thought we knew
about the country and everythingLike we thought we were having
the political reading abouteverything was going on.
It was everything wrong.
Like we were reading everythingwrong.
Marie Berry (26:50):
And.
Dani Assis (26:50):
I feel like it's difficult to process, like how
am I not able to understand thecountry?
Marie Berry (26:59):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (27:00):
It's like I thought it was something, but it's
something completely differentand we cannot step away from
this bubble that we created andeveryone is leaving their own
bubble.
So, like we, as progressivepeople, we are leaving this
bubble where we think thateveryone hates Bolsonaro and we
think that everyone is mad abouthow he handled the pandemic,
(27:21):
and we think that everyone wantsto legalize abortion and gay
rights and everything.
But like, if you just step out,like one centimeter away from
this bubble, it's a completelydifferent country and it's scary
, like, because then when we getto the elections and we see
(27:42):
that people are actually stillvoting for Bolsonaro and then
the polls were showing that hewould lose, but he actually like
got really close of winning andthat he could actually win in
the first round, if he's votingfor the pandemic or if he was
for a lot of stuff, it's like inwhat word am I living in?
Marie Berry (28:01):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (28:02):
And how different is this word from the word that my
neighbor is living?
Sometimes?
I don't access, I don't haveany access to that and I don't
know.
It's scary, it's scary.
Marie Berry (28:15):
That's so real and I think that resonates so much
here in the United States too,where it's just unbelievable.
You know to think that somepeople would harbor particular
views, and then you meet themand they're not that different
you know, and it's really hard,and I'm with you.
I mean, I think one of the big,one of the most challenging
(28:35):
things right now for activistsis this feeling that there's
like, you know, there's not likethe wall of opposition.
The wall of these superconservative, anti-human rights,
you know, attitudes is so thickthat being able to fully, you
(28:56):
know, dismantle it or to fullyallow it to crumble just seems
like something it's hard toimagine.
I feel this really.
Yeah, I feel this myself forsure.
Dani Assis (29:05):
And it's grounded in some stuff that we do not
understand.
Like religion, yeah right, likewhen you grow up in a religion
like the evangelical religion,it dictates a lot of how you
live.
So, like all of your values,all of your relationships with
family and with friends and work, all of I don't know, like
(29:27):
everything, that it's not thepriests.
The priest is from the HolyChurch.
How do you say?
Like the pastors?
Maybe the pastors?
Marie Berry (29:35):
yeah.
Dani Assis (29:36):
Everything that the pastors say, you just obey like
right.
It's difficult, but when thepastor is saying that we, the
progressives are, we the leftwing, that we are like Satanists
, because this is what they'redoing here, Right.
They're spreading fake newssaying that we have a
relationship with the devil,with the demon, because we want
(30:01):
to legalize abortion and becausewe want to marry people from
the same sex.
Yeah, right.
Like those people already lookat us with different eyes and
it's like impossible tocommunicate with them.
It's just impossible becauseit's about faith and it's about
where you grow and it's aboutwhat the pastor is saying.
(30:21):
It's about all the people thatare around you that think the
same way and it's impossible toaccess and it's violent to
access.
Marie Berry (30:29):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (30:31):
And I think, as queer women feminists, we will
not stop talking about abortionand sex, marriage and those
things that are like thoserights are not negotiable for us
.
Marie Berry (30:43):
Right.
Dani Assis (30:44):
And we have to negotiate them with the
religious people in order to winthis election.
And it hurts so much because ifLula, which is the candidate
that is running againstBolsonaro, has to go to the TV,
to the debate, to do some ads onTwitter or whatever, to say
that he is against abortion, Ifeel like we are already lost.
Marie Berry (31:08):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (31:09):
Because this is the left-wing candidate saying that
we will not legalize abortion inorder to win votes, and I am
advocating for this guy becausethe other side is just
completely insane, yeah right.
So it's like you feel a bitlost, because you're like okay,
so what have I been doing allthese years of activists that I
(31:31):
have not been?
I was not able to communicatewith those people, first of all.
So, and me as a communicator,as a journalist, I'm like, what
type of a communicator am?
Marie Berry (31:41):
I Because.
Dani Assis (31:42):
I cannot communicate with them, I cannot access them
, I cannot understand them.
What type of social scientistsam I?
Because I cannot?
This data it's just, it's wrong.
Marie Berry (31:54):
Right.
Dani Assis (31:55):
How can I read Brazilian society and do
something strategically tochange that, if I'm not
accessing those people, if theyare not showing up on polls, if
they are not we cannot talk, soit's difficult.
We are in a place where we'relike okay, how can I actually
change the world if I don't evenknow this world?
Marie Berry (32:18):
Yeah, that is a big , that is a big real question,
and I mean I think it's you'rein good company with that big,
real question, you know.
I think that's a lot of us aretrying to seek answers to that
how do we change the world rightif we're up against these
massive, massive challenges andsystems?
(32:39):
So, you know, one of thecampaigns that you've been
involved with recently has beenfocused on the Amazon Rainforest
, and I'm curious to know alittle bit more about that and
whether you felt like there weresome breakthroughs there or
some some kind of new models forways to do campaigns that
perhaps did make a difference,or tell us a little bit about
(33:01):
that campaign.
Dani Assis (33:02):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
So we've been talking and theorganization I'm working on,
that we want to do somethingabout the Amazon because it's
just even though there are manymovements and many serious
activists that have been workingon this issue for a long time,
(33:22):
the Amazon is just not somethingthat the Brazilian people in
general talk about.
So it's not something like yougo to a family meeting and
people who talk about theenvironment or will talk about
the Amazon or anyone will careabout that.
So people know that the Amazonis there, but it feels a little
bit distant.
So if you are in Sao Paulo,which is a city with 20 million
(33:48):
people in the south of thecountry, you know that the
Amazon exists and you study thisat school and you're like, okay
, we have this big forest in thecountry, but, first of all, the
chances you've ever steppedfoot on there is minimal.
Like you've just heard about iton books and movies and things
(34:08):
like that, but you've never beenthere.
We even have this like joke,like, okay, people go, people
from Sao Paulo most of the time,like if they can travel, if
they have the money to affordthat, they go to Europe.
They meet Europe and the US anda lot of other countries, and
they've never been to the AmazonLike you go to your own country
and it feels distant, it feelslike something that no one can
(34:34):
access.
And if it feels distant, how doyou care about that?
You will not care, like it'sjust not part of your daily life
and it's not something that youactually impact you, and we
were like we have to dosomething to make people that
are in the cities and there arenot located in the Amazon to
care about the Amazon and to seethat it actually has impacts in
(34:56):
everyday life and that itimpacts the food that we're
eating.
It impacts the price of theenergy we're paying here because
, Brazil's energy is based onhydroelectricity, so, like if we
(35:18):
are going through a moment ofdrought, for instance, this is
something that will impact ourpockets and it's something that
is totally related to theforestation and the Amazon
rainforest, because it changesthe whole rain system and the
whole region, and the Amazon isactually really present in
(35:40):
everything that we do.
And it's not something justabout the future.
Oh, we have to preserve theAmazon because of climate change
it is, but it's something thatis already impacting our lives
right now and we wanted peopleto be talking about it.
So we were like what can we do?
What type of campaign can westart doing to make this
(36:01):
actually happen, to make peopleact for the Amazon and care
about the Amazon and talk aboutthe Amazon?
So we came up with this planeto build a public demand view
called Amazonia de.
Marie Berry (36:17):
Pepe.
Dani Assis (36:19):
It's literally translated as Stending Amazon.
We want the Amazon to bestanding, not like on the ground
.
It makes sense in Portuguese,and we have this mechanism in
the Brazilian constitution thatallows the Brazilian population
to present a view in thenational Congress.
(36:40):
So it's not just aparliamentarian or the president
that has the power to presentviews to be discussed and to be
approved and to become laws inthe country.
So the population can also dothat through this public demand
view, which is called Projeto deLei de Iniciativo Popular.
So basically, what we have todo is to collect a median and a
(37:04):
half physical signatures so inpaper it's digital One and a
half million people have been inperson, like a hand, signature
Hand signature.
And presented in the nationalCongress and then it will be
discussed as a regular view.
Like it has the denormal.
(37:28):
I don't know, but it will go inthe national Congress as a
regular view and it will beapproved, it will be voted, it
will be sanctioned by thepresident afterwards and all
those things.
And we created this publicdemand view that it basically
should destinate more than 50million hectares of public
(37:49):
forests in the Amazon whichbelong to the Union.
It belongs, it's their publicpublic lands in the Amazon, but
they do not under care of anyone.
So, basically, like it's publicbut nothing happens there, so
it's very susceptible toinvasion.
(38:14):
And it's where thedeforestation rates are higher
in the forest because, like,since it is not destined to
anyone, it is not under care ofanyone, anyone can go there and
just deforest and just burn andjust start planting soy or
whatever the agribusiness wantsto do with the Amazon.
(38:36):
So, basically, you want todestiny all these 50 million
hectares to indigenous people,kilombolas and conservation
units, which are institutionshere in Brazil that take care of
the environment.
So yeah, by destinating thisamount of land, which is
(38:58):
equivalent to 57 millionfootball tanks, football fields,
Football fields yeah, Millionfootball fields.
Marie Berry (39:08):
okay, that's huge.
Dani Assis (39:09):
Yeah, it's a lot, it's huge.
We kind of guarantee by lawthat these lands are being
protected by people who know howto take care of the land,
because they've been there eversince the world is world like,
for thousands of years.
They are the best ones to takecare of the Amazon and it's
proved by the UN, by a lot ofimportant environmental
(39:34):
institutions.
Marie Berry (39:36):
Will you say that one more time?
So there's 15 million hectares.
That is part of this, and theidea is to designate it as land
that is under the protection ofand say that one more time the
groups and the entitiesIndigenous people kilombolas,
kilombolas.
Dani Assis (39:53):
I don't know if you're familiar with the term.
Marie Berry (39:55):
No.
Dani Assis (39:56):
Kilombolas are people, the African people, who
actually escaped slavery duringBrazil's colony.
So there was this resistancemovement of the slaves in Brazil
that they escaped the farmsthat they were working in the
places that they were workingand started creating communities
(40:17):
that were like far away fromthe cities.
So, yeah, to survive, and theyexist even today, like those
communities of kilombolas oflike, escaped, enslaved African
people who also, like, have thisancestral thing with the land
because they've been there for300 years, for 400 years, for a
(40:41):
long time and they've beenliving in those communities in
the forests and yeah in manydifferent places in the
countryside of Brazil.
Yeah, and we want to designateland to them as well.
Marie Berry (40:56):
Awesome, that's incredible.
Wait, so tell us then what isthe status of this and how did
you, did you, get the signatures?
Dani Assis (41:04):
Yeah.
So basically, like of course wewant to present this view and
we want this view to pass, butalso for us it's really
important the means to presentthis view.
So, like we decided to havethis campaign around the
signatures and the physicalsignatures because it kind of
(41:24):
obligates us to be on thestreets and to talk to people
and to not just like, send alink on Instagram and say, hey,
find this.
No, it's not just that, like.
You have to first of all sayall of these things that I just
told you.
So like talk about the publicland on the Amazon and the
deforestation and how the ratesof deforestation are high and
(41:47):
lands that are not protected,and how indigenous people in the
Lombolas communities are thebest people to save the forest.
So, like, everyone has thespeech on the tip of their
tongues and when they're talkingabout how you're putting these
to protect the forest and todesignate this public lands to
people who know how to protectit and who actually have been
(42:07):
fighting for the rights of theterritory ever since this
country exists, so you kind ofmake yeah, if you have to talk
about people on the streets and,like during festivals or during
a dinner, during a familydinner, to collect signatures,
you're actually startingconversations about the Amazon,
(42:29):
and this is our main goal.
Our main goal I wouldn't sayit's just the bill.
I think our main goal is tomake people talk about the
Amazon and to make this acentral debate in the country,
because it is urgent, because,yeah, it is very, very, very
urgent we need to start thisconversation.
(42:52):
So at the moment that so thereare many, many ways you can
collect a signature.
You can enter our website andjust download a paper with 10
signatures.
So you have a lot of things youneed to fill.
So you need to fill your fullname, you need to fill your
address, you need to fill yourvoter registration number
(43:13):
because you need to beregistered to vote in order to
sign a public demand billaccording to the rules of the
public demand.
So you like to download thispaper with all this information
and you can collect 10signatures in one paper.
So you can download it andcollect from your friends,
collect from your family.
(43:34):
You can go to a family dinnerand say hey, dad, hey mom, have
you heard the?
word of the Amazon referencetoday and start this
conversation in private spaces.
But there are also other waysyou can collect signatures.
You can be a volunteer at anevent, for instance.
So we were at Rocking Rio lastmonth.
Marie Berry (43:57):
Rocking.
Dani Assis (43:57):
Rio is one of the largest music festivals in the
world.
Like a lot of internationalattractions, like 10 days of
festivals.
I don't know if it's big, it'sawesome, it's real.
Like people from all over thecountry come to Rio just for
this festival and we had a teamof volunteers at the festival
collecting signatures, so likestopping people at the festival.
(44:18):
Hey, have you heard about theAmazon?
Hey, you know about the publicland in the Amazon that's not
being protected?
Hey, do you know about the rightof indigenous people to own the
land on the Amazon and thenjust start conversations with
people people that you know,people that you actually
download the paper and go talkto them, and people that you
(44:40):
don't know.
If you're a volunteer at anevent, for instance, we also
have some collection points.
So I don't know if you have avegan restaurant in your
neighborhood and you want tohave some papers there to
collect signatures of people,well, for your clients, people
who are there to eat your food,you can also have that.
(45:00):
So there are many ways that wecan collect those signatures and
we have to have those many ways, because a million and a half
to the lot and we need to bespread all over the country as
well, because okay, I could havea million and a half signatures
from Sao Paulo.
Sao Paulo itself has millions ofpeople, but no, you need to
(45:23):
have at least five differentstates, according to the rules,
and yeah, and you need to bespread all over the country,
basically.
So this is something reallynice, because we're not just
collecting signatures for peoplewho are living in the Amazon
region and we're not justcollecting signatures of people
who don't know anything that isgoing on there.
(45:44):
We're actually making amovement that's national and
that it's organized all over thecountry, which is really nice,
because then we make peopleunderstand that what happens in
the Amazon does not stay in theAmazon, that it is important
that I am in Rio right now andthat I sign something that's
(46:04):
going to save the rainforest andit's also going to save the
country and it's also going tosave the planet.
Like it escalates the importanceof doing what you're doing, and
then we have, like, yeah, somenarrative around it that it's
really nice, like, oh, you havethe power in your hands and it's
(46:30):
really nice, oh, I love it.
Yeah, I see it Cool yeah so,like literally, all you need to
do is sign.
Like the power is in your hands.
We're saying also that we arethe last generation that can
save this, the rainforest, thatcan save the Amazon.
So there is a sense of urgencyand also a sense of you can
actually do something about it,because I feel like the problem
(46:53):
with other campaigns about theenvironment, about the Amazon,
is like okay, we have thisterrible scenario, we might lose
the forest, we might have, yeah, a disaster and kind of change
as soon as possible andirreversible and very, very
disastrous.
Then we cannot do anythingabout it because, yeah, it's
(47:14):
just bigger than us.
Marie Berry (47:15):
Yeah, fatalism, where there's just so there's so
many the obstacles areinsurmountable and that leads to
this, really leads to inaction,because it paralyzes, I think,
so many people, because thechallenges we face really are so
big, exactly, but this you cando something so simple to save
(47:39):
it and to do your part, likeeveryone can be a part of it,
and it's like people want to act.
Dani Assis (47:46):
People want to, so they can actually make an impact
, but not everyone has time noteveryone, I don't know and when
you come with the plan and justsay you just have to do this,
you just have to sign this, youactually feel powerful to like
they are doing something that ismaking an impact.
And this is really nice to seethat you actually have power to
(48:09):
do stuff and to change thingsand to move forward.
Marie Berry (48:14):
I'm with you, I agree.
Dani Assis (48:16):
I actually think, like the, that Amazonia GP is
one of the most creative inthose in this sense, because I
feel like we're using amechanism, a democratic
mechanism that is projected inthe constitution, to create a
movement, and it's like we arebelieving in the institution,
(48:40):
which is something nice.
We are believing that we areable to change things through
institutional ways and usingdemocratic tools.
And, yeah, and I think this isreally nice because, like, we've
been able to actually use a lotof culture as a mobilization
(49:01):
strategy.
So last month, in September 5thyeah, september 5th it was the
Amazon day here in Brazil and weorganized eight different
festivals around the country andwe also had an open call for
actions.
So there were over 600 actionshappening all over the country
(49:26):
during the week of the Amazonday and it was amazing to see
how widespread the movement is.
And I think this is nicebecause, like, when you say, oh,
what creative tools you had inyour movements and everything, I
feel like the most creativething you can do is to let it to
lose control and let people becreative on their own.
(49:46):
Like I feel like losing controlof the movement is one of the
most beautiful things that canhappen to a movement, and I feel
like this is happening rightnow with our movement, when we
have over 600 actions beingorganized in all five regions of
the country and it goes fromyoga classes at the park with
like I don't know, 10, 15 peoplethat go to the yoga class, but
(50:10):
it has like the flag of themovement and people are
collecting signatures at theyoga class and talking about the
Amazon at the yoga class.
And you have a festival as bigas the one that we had here in
Rio, like with thousands ofpeople listening to a very
famous Brazilian singer, whichis called Géa Resededo, in a
free public event, and all ofthese thousands of people that
(50:33):
were in this festival were alsocollecting signatures.
And then you have, like schoolteachers who are mobilizing
their schools and doing likedraw contests in their schools
about the Amazon.
And then you see, like thevideos of the little kids
drawing trees and drawing cutestuff and saying, hey, you have
to save the Amazon People whoare very far away from the
(50:54):
Amazon, small kids.
They're not collectingsignatures because they cannot
sign.
You need to be 16 or over andhave them be registered to vote
in order to sign the bill.
But you're educating kidsaround the Amazon and you're
making the kids fair and sign it, and you're making the kids go
to their houses after school andsay hey dad, have you heard
(51:16):
about Amazon?
Hey dad, do you know thatthere's this big ring forest in
the North of the country that wehave to save?
And then, like you, put allthose actions together in one
week of action to for the sakeof the forest, and you see that
people can get really creativeand that there are amazing
(51:38):
things that can grow when youdecentralize things and you let
people's creativity free, likenot dictate how the movement
should happen.
Hey you should do an event likethis with a music presentation
and with a place for people tosign.
No, there's no perfect plan forthis.
(51:59):
Like you just say, hey, you cando any cultural activity or any
educational activity, anypolitical activity you want in
order to collect thosesignatures and to talk about the
Amazon.
And it just surprises me andamazes me every time how
creative people can be and howamazing things can grow.
For that, and see how themovement has grown in all
(52:23):
regions of the country, it'sreally beautiful, it's really
nice.
Marie Berry (52:26):
Oh, that's so beautiful.
I mean, I just think that'ssuch a powerful statement around
.
You know this, the beauty thatcan be found in losing control
and what can flourish and whatcan really really what can be
generated in those moments inwhich nobody's telling you what
to do.
There's not this kind ofdirective coming from the
leadership, but instead there'sa real embracing of what people
(52:51):
feel can be a joyful way of ofcreating something that can also
support.
You know the gathering ofsignatures and the education
that comes around that.
I think that's really great.
You, you, you, you.
Hello everyone, my guest today is Danielle Assis, a
journalist and campaigner fromBrazil who has mobilized for
climate justice, abortion rights, women's leadership and more
throughout her entire life.
She is currently dedicated tothe Amazonia de Pei project, a
campaign to designate 57 millionhectares of public land in the
(00:24):
Amazon rainforest to indigenouscommunities and conservation
units.
I spoke to Danny in mid-October2022, right after the elections
between President Bolsonaro andformer President Lula had gone
to a runoff.
At that pivotal moment inhistory, the stakes felt very
high.
Danny, like many otheractivists, had been mobilizing
(00:47):
for years against the ravages ofBolsonaro's far-right
government, and the prospects ofhim potentially winning another
term had everyone deeplyalarmed.
As you'll hear throughout ourconversation, danny's activism
is grounded in a deep connectionto others, to community, to
land and to the better future wecan build together.
As she wrote once, despite ourdifferences, we inhale, exhale
(01:12):
and feel the pain of the worldin ways far more similar than we
often imagine.
We connect, above all, throughtears, fear, exhaustion and all
the things that have no name.
I spoke to Danny in mid-October2022, right after the elections
between President Bolsonaro andformer President Lula had gone
(01:34):
to a runoff in Brazil.
At that pivotal moment inhistory.
The stakes felt very high andDanny, like many other activists
, had been mobilizing for yearsagainst the ravages of
Bolsonaro's far-right government, and the prospects of him
winning another term hadeveryone deeply alarmed.
A few weeks later, however,lula defeated Bolsonaro in the
(01:56):
runoff and Danny, like manyother activists and advocates
for democracy and human rightsacross the world, celebrated.
During our conversation, I'llnote that Danny sounds a little
bit tinny or like she's in awell due to some technical
limitations, but her wisdomshines through, so I promise it
(02:17):
will be worth it.
Danny, tell us a little bitabout you personally as an
activist and in these types ofmovements.
Like what does it meant for youand your kind of as a woman, as
an individual, as a youngactivist?
Like what has this work?
(02:39):
How has it impacted your life?
Dani Assis (02:41):
I feel like, as I said, ever since I started
getting involved in politicswhen I was 19 years old, I feel
like my whole life is shapedaround it somehow.
So my professional life, forsure like I've been working as
an activist ever since.
I've worked in politicalparties, I've worked in social
(03:02):
movements, I've worked inelectro campaigns, I've worked
in NGOs, so everything is aboutsocial impact in a way.
It's about activism in a way,and I have no intentions of
getting out of it.
I feel like I have to have thispurpose in my professional life
.
I could not work for just anycompany or anything that does
(03:25):
not have a purpose.
I think, first of all, myprofessional life is impacted by
it.
I feel like my academic life isimpacted by it, so I have a
master's.
I graduated in journalism in2018, I think yeah and then I
did my master's last year and mydissertation in my undergrad
(03:49):
was about politics.
It was about social movements,it was about the occupation
movements of the university, andmy dissertation on my master's
was about politics.
I did a master's in politicalcommunication and my
dissertation was about womenpoliticians in Brazil and how it
is to be a feminist during bothmy government.
So what I study is aboutpolitics and it's about activism
(04:12):
what I work is about politics,it's about activism.
I feel, my social life is also.
It involves a little bit aboutaround it because, as I said,
the people you meet when youwere doing your direct taxes,
like occupying your school,occupying your university- they
become your family.
(04:33):
They become people you trust somuch people you spend through
the good and the bad, thevictories and other defeats.
They become people you trustand you love and you care very
much and spend most of your timewith them, either because of
work, either because of youractivism outside of work, either
(04:54):
because you just love to bearound people who share the same
values as you.
So I feel like my whole life isshaped around politics and
sometimes it can feel a bit okay, how can I get out of it?
How can I alienate myself a bit?
I also want to go to the beachand not think about politics and
not be around people from workor people who are from the
(05:17):
movement.
Marie Berry (05:18):
Totally.
Dani Assis (05:19):
But at the same time , as I was saying before, it
hurts to get out of the bubble.
So I like my bubble.
I don't know if I want to leaveit.
I like to be around people whostart to think that it's just me
and I like to.
I like to live this fully.
I think for some people, theyhave no choice if they are
(05:39):
political or not.
I feel like some people and somecountries specifically,
everything is political, likethe price you pay for the bus is
political, the price you payfor the bread you eat is
political, the people you loveis political, the people you
(06:00):
work with they're all political.
So we are political as well andwe cannot step away from it.
We do not have this right, Ithink.
But also, yeah, trying to findsome joy in everything and try
to actually understand how youcan be political but also be
(06:21):
safe and being a good mentalhealth state.
I think you can do both.
I think we can have boundaries.
I grew up in the agri-businessculture, so basically it's
grounded in very conservativevalues and very conservative
ways of seeing politics and ofseeing life.
(06:42):
But ever since I was verylittle because I am a woman who
loves other women I learned thatI was bigger than that city and
that I wanted to see the world.
I wanted to do other things.
I wanted to be close to peoplewho I think that think more
similar like I do.
(07:03):
So I moved to Brasilia when Iwas 17 years old.
Brasilia is the capital city ofBrazil and it's two hours away
from my hometown and it's whereI first got involved with
politics and first realized thatwe can actually make an impact
and do social change andactually change all this
(07:23):
conservative values that we grewup in, that we do not have to
just conform to them.
we have ways of organizing andof acting collectively to change
things.
So I first I started studyingjournalism at the University of
Brasilia, and communication forme, always felt like a tool for
(07:43):
social change, because it's howwe can express ourselves and how
we can communicate to eachother and tell them how we're
feeling and how we want to see adifferent world.
And I started college in a verycomplicated moment, in Brazil
as well, so I started college in2015, in 2016, we had a coup in
(08:06):
the country.
The first female president everelected in the country was
impeached in a process that it'svery, very complicated to
explain, but it's legallycontested everywhere in the
country and as time goes by, wecan see that it was really not
fair at all with this woman andthe political problems escalated
(08:31):
really quickly.
So I just moved from myhometown, which is very
conservative and very difficultand politics is not happening at
all, and I got to Brasilia, thecenter of the power in Brazil,
so the capital of whereeverything happens in terms of
politics in the country.
(08:52):
It was a city built for thatpurpose.
So, it's a new city and wasplanned to be the capital and in
that very harsh politicalmoment of the country, so
everything was so new to me.
Yeah, I was like okay, I have anew life here, I can start
(09:13):
things over, I can be myselfhere, I can surround myself with
wonderful people, I can dopolitics, I can do
communications, I can do all ofthese amazing things that I
didn't know I was able to do.
But we have this politicalmoment that is very complicated
and I think it was the start ofeverything that we're seeing
right now in the country.
(09:34):
So it was 2016 and the newgovernment that just got
empowered and it willillegitimate is that a word?
Illegitimate government isstarting implementing some
austerity policies in thecountry and a lot of budget cuts
and education.
So I was studying in the publicuniversity In Brazil.
(09:55):
Public universities are verystrong.
They are the best ones in thecountry and they are free and
it's amazing.
But at the same time, there's nobudget.
So the researchers, theprofessors, the academic staff
everyone suffers a lot from thelack of money to actually do
things.
So there are amazing meetings,amazing structure, but, at the
(10:16):
same time, lack of resources todo everything that we want to do
and that we would be able to doif we had this money.
And with budget cuts andeducation that the new
government had announced, itwasn't possible to actually make
the university survive.
That's what we're facing rightnow.
Public universities in Brazilare I don't know.
(10:36):
They might be destroyed becauseof lack of money, and it
started in 2016 because of theseausterity policies.
So this unit movement from theuniversity and all over the
country started organizing totry to to make this stop, to try
to make this policy this ohsorry, how do you say that
(10:59):
Disasterity policy not passed inthe national congress.
So there were over a hundreduniversities across the country
that occupied their buildings.
So this movement occupied thebuildings of this university all
over the country, and I wasinvolved in the occupation that
happened at the University of.
Marie Berry (11:18):
Brasil.
Dani Assis (11:20):
I slept 45 days in the rectory building of the
university.
I was 19 by then and it waslike the first time I was ever
involved in those type ofpolitical tactics.
And yeah, we spent like 45 daysactually resisting in the
(11:41):
university and saying, hey, thisis our space, you're not going
to cut any budget, you're notgoing to do anything to make all
the research and all theamazing things that are being
done here, you're not going tomake it stop, because this is
our place and we want to studyand we want this place to be a
free place and a place where wecan actually learn and have
(12:03):
structure.
Marie Berry (12:05):
But in the end, tell me more about that.
I want to hear about those 45days Like what was it like?
What did you do for 45 days?
Where did you sleep?
What happened, and did peoplesurprise you at all in those
days in terms of what they endedup doing with their time or
their energy?
Dani Assis (12:23):
So basically the first day it was after a general
assembly we did at theuniversity, so there were
students from all courses,mostly undergrads, and we did
this huge assembly with morethan a thousand people
participating.
And we voted that we want tooccupy the building and that we
wouldn't be.
(12:43):
How do you say that when peoplejust stop studying?
Marie Berry (12:46):
I hope they like, if they were strike, Strikes
yeah totally.
Dani Assis (12:50):
Yeah, we would strike and we would occupy the
building because this movementwas already happening in other
universities.
So, and people always expectthe University of Brazil to be
one of the least universities todo those types of things in
Brazil, because we are in thecenter of the power.
So we are so close to theNational Congress, we are so
close to the Presidential Palace, so we are the ones that are
(13:12):
actually responsible of doingsomething, because we are in the
middle of the power of thecountry.
So everyone was expecting thisassembly to happen at the
University of Brasil, likepeople from universities in.
Rio, people from universitiesin São Paulo, people from
universities in the North.
They were like okay.
University of Brasil?
When are you doing it?
When are you doing it?
And then we did, and after thishuge assembly I think it was
(13:37):
one of the biggest of thehistory of the University
Everyone just marched to therectory building, which is like
where the administrationbuilding of the University is we
marched together and we justlike, we just like destroyed the
door and entered the buildingand yeah, and we were like more
(13:59):
than a thousand in the buildingand then we divided ourselves in
groups, like there was thesecurity group, the people that
would be in front of thebuilding to protect the
occupation and to control whoenters, who does not enter, who
can be inside, who cannot beinside.
There was the communicationgroup, which was the group, as
part of that went to thecommunication room of the
(14:23):
administration building wherethe communication of the
University happens, and westayed there.
So the communication groupoccupies the communication room
of the rectory building and wejust started like setting up our
beds.
We started calling people likepeople who are not exactly
students but like unions andother movements that were like
(14:47):
supporting the student movementsto bring food, to bring money,
to bring some mattress, to bringlike stuff so we could stay
sleeping and like painting.
Marie Berry (15:00):
Basically, at the building.
Dani Assis (15:02):
So like we started calling and other movements
started helping and bringingstuff to help the movement and I
remember like we stayed up allnight that day.
We couldn't sleep.
We were like planning how itwould be the next day.
We were planning how we wouldsleep.
We were organizing all thesectors and rooms of the rectory
(15:22):
building.
So the security group, thecommunication group, the
politics group, like people whowere articulating with the
administration how theoccupation would happen, people
that were planning the tacticsthat we would do at the National
Congress.
For instance, we had two bigprotests during the time we were
sleeping there.
During those four or five dayswe organized two big protests in
(15:45):
front of the National Congress.
So there was a groupspecifically thinking about how
this protest would happen andtake place.
There were groups that werethinking how we can bring people
from other universities and forother regions of the country to
be present in those proteststhat they as well.
So the protest would be biggerand we could have like massive
(16:08):
protests against the austeritypolicies of budgetary banks.
It was very well organized.
In the communication group wehad like different sectors, so
we had this, the people who weretaking care of the social media
of the movement.
So we, in the first day, wecreated like a logo and a visual
(16:28):
identity and a Facebook page,because at the time we used
Facebook a lot and Instagram andwe also created a radio.
So we we set up a radio like aweb radio at the meeting as well
, and we were like all the timetalking with people who were
outside and talking about howthe movement was like and how
(16:52):
the the discussions at theNational Congress about this
specific policy was being voted,and we also played some music
and we had fun and we talked alot about like because after 45
days you can involve a kind ofrelationship with all those
people that are there.
(17:13):
So also a lot of gossip, sowho's kissing who, who is living
in the other one's door, andthings like that.
So it was a very special momentfor me.
I think I feel like this iswhere I first realized that we,
even if we are livingauthoritarian moments, which was
(17:35):
the case at the time we stillcan have democracy within the
movements and we still can likecreate these safe spaces between
us.
So like it was like living aparallel reality when we were
there, because the word wasterrible and that was like no, I
(17:56):
don't know no green light forus, because we were already like
seeing that the country wasdrowning at that time, but at
the same time, we were togetherand we were building something
and we were creating a beautifulthing and we were like getting
involved with each other and wewere creating beauty,
relationships and beauty, likeamazing things.
That, at least for me, like itchanged my life.
(18:18):
It turned out I became anactivist because of that that
this is my work, this is myprofessional, my academic, my
personal life.
This is everything I am now,mostly because of those 45 days
when I was 19 years old inBrasilia.
So, yeah, I think like it,basically it's the the ground of
(18:43):
what I do right now.
Like, yeah, I came from thesocial movement and I came from
this very direct tactic and.
I came from this environmentthat, yeah, that was not
favorable for us in that moment.
That left because we couldcreate something nice from it.
Marie Berry (19:00):
I think that's really powerful.
Yeah, what was grounding yourpolitics, both in that moment,
while you were occupying thebuilding, and also what
continues to ground yourpolitics.
I mean, what is at the core ofyour work and your activism
today?
Dani Assis (19:16):
That's intense.
Yeah, what is at the core?
What?
Marie Berry (19:23):
do you?
Dani Assis (19:23):
believe in.
I feel like hope.
I feel like realizing that wehave an amazing country and that
there are many things that areworth fighting for in this
country.
Because, like most of the time,it feels like we're losers,
because most of the time we arelike, in terms of politics, we
(19:45):
cannot.
Yeah, we are losers most of thetime, but I feel like hope
grounds me.
I feel like seeing that we havesuch a rich culture, that we
have so many amazing people thatare just like the best people
in the world, like alwayssmiling, always, like working so
hard, always up to yeah, up toget out, get up and just live
(20:13):
their lives, even though it's sohard.
Marie Berry (20:15):
Yeah, for sure.
Dani Assis (20:18):
I feel like fighting for these people, fighting for
my people, I feel like my peoplegives me hope that this country
can change and that, eventhough we seem losers right now,
we actually can meet some stuff.
Marie Berry (20:32):
Oh, my gosh.
Well, tell me what's going onin Brazil right now.
I know there's obviously therewas a primary election and we're
sort of we're recording thisinterview on October 18th, so
we're between the primary andthen the subsequent election.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about what's going on, what
(20:55):
the context and what is, whatare the stakes in this current
political moment in Brazil?
Dani Assis (21:03):
Yeah, so basically after 2016, when we had the coup
, there was this far rightmovement that started brewing a
lot in the country and itreached the power democratically
in 2018.
So Bolsonaro, which is thepresident for now, he was
(21:23):
elected with more than 55million votes, which is a lot.
When you look like at thenumbers, it's a bit scary like
okay, 55 million people vote forthis guy.
It's a lot, and it shows thatit's something that has been
growing for a while, like it'snot something that just showed
(21:45):
up, it's not something thatshould surprise us.
It's something that's beingbuilt for a long time and we say
it started in 2016, but I thinkit started way, way, way before
we had this process in 2013,.
Like this massive process allaround the country that kind of
(22:06):
plants the seeds of everythingthat's going on now, like the
anti-established feeling, theanti-corruption feeling, the
feeling that things shouldchange, that they are tired of
everything that's going on,they're tired of corruption,
they are tired of I don't know alot of things going on, and the
(22:28):
solution they found was the farright and they started
organizing and they started likeactually gaining power through
institutional politics.
So it has a lot to do withreligion in Brazil.
So the evangelical religion isreally growing and it has been
(22:49):
growing a lot.
The last time we had how do yousay that it's not a poll?
well, like we, not a poll likewhen you, oh, I'm so bad at my
university, no, you're great,you're so great, like when you
(23:11):
just like start getting dataabout everyone in the country
yeah, I just know how manyCatholics how many.
Muslims yeah, so the last timewe had it it was 10 years ago
and there were eight percent ofevangelical people, and now we
(23:32):
have more than 30 percent wow,wow, so it has been growing a
lot and in a very radical view.
Like it's not.
It's not like, yeah, it's hardto talk about religion and not
be like I don't know, not have alittle bit of prejudice but,
they've been.
They've been radical and theyhave a political project for the
(23:56):
country.
So they've always said like weneed to be in the presidency, we
need to be in the nationalcongress, we need to be at power
positions so we can actuallydictate values of the society
right so Bolsonaro himself hewants to said a couple times
(24:18):
that if he could, he would makethe fight with the constitution.
For instance, he's radicallyagainst the legalization of
abortion.
He would say before the 2018election that he would rather
have a dad son than a gay sonand a lot of terrible stuff.
Yeah, and he actually did thatwhen he was in presidency the
(24:43):
last four years.
So it was just not these justdiscourse, like he would
actually implement a lot ofpolicies no that found the armed
people and that have that havebeen really egregious.
Marie Berry (24:56):
I mean, we honestly it's.
It's amazing to look at theparallels to between what Trump
and the white nationalistmovement on the far right has
meant a part of really fomentinghere in the US and what
Bolsonaro has been able to do ina similar way in Brazil and
it's you know, it's they'redifferent in a lot of ways, but
(25:18):
there's so many kind of eeriesimilarities across these
contexts and so I mean, maybeone of my questions for you is
really how have, how haveprogressive activist communities
responded to these like growingthreats from Bolsonaro, from
the far right, from this reallyreally kind of rapidly
increasing percentage ofevangelicals?
What are activists doing tocounter this and what have you
(25:42):
personally been involved with?
Dani Assis (25:44):
Yeah, so basically still talking about 2018, when
he was elected also, there was alot of progressive people that
were elected and people thatnever have been represented in
the national Congress before.
I feel I am confused right nowabout what's going on in the
(26:06):
country, so I don't know how toexplain to other people because
I'm also a bit lost.
I'm like okay, because we werehoping that this election right
now.
We were hoping that peoplewould actually change and vote
for Lula, and polls were showingthat Bolsonaro was going to
lose in the first round and wewere expecting a whole different
(26:28):
scenario from two weeks ago tonow.
Two weeks ago was the firstround of the election.
Everything just changed Likeeverything we thought we knew
about the country and everythingLike we thought we were having
the political reading abouteverything was going on.
It was everything wrong.
Like we were reading everythingwrong.
Marie Berry (26:50):
And.
Dani Assis (26:50):
I feel like it's difficult to process, like how
am I not able to understand thecountry?
Marie Berry (26:59):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (27:00):
It's like I thought it was something, but it's
something completely differentand we cannot step away from
this bubble that we created andeveryone is leaving their own
bubble.
So, like we, as progressivepeople, we are leaving this
bubble where we think thateveryone hates Bolsonaro and we
think that everyone is mad abouthow he handled the pandemic,
(27:21):
and we think that everyone wantsto legalize abortion and gay
rights and everything.
But like, if you just step out,like one centimeter away from
this bubble, it's a completelydifferent country and it's scary
, like, because then when we getto the elections and we see
(27:42):
that people are actually stillvoting for Bolsonaro and then
the polls were showing that hewould lose, but he actually like
got really close of winning andthat he could actually win in
the first round, if he's votingfor the pandemic or if he was
for a lot of stuff, it's like inwhat word am I living in?
Marie Berry (28:01):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (28:02):
And how different is this word from the word that my
neighbor is living?
Sometimes?
I don't access, I don't haveany access to that and I don't
know.
It's scary, it's scary.
Marie Berry (28:15):
That's so real and I think that resonates so much
here in the United States too,where it's just unbelievable.
You know to think that somepeople would harbor particular
views, and then you meet themand they're not that different
you know, and it's really hard,and I'm with you.
I mean, I think one of the big,one of the most challenging
(28:35):
things right now for activistsis this feeling that there's
like, you know, there's not likethe wall of opposition.
The wall of these superconservative, anti-human rights,
you know, attitudes is so thickthat being able to fully, you
(28:56):
know, dismantle it or to fullyallow it to crumble just seems
like something it's hard toimagine.
I feel this really.
Yeah, I feel this myself forsure.
Dani Assis (29:05):
And it's grounded in some stuff that we do not
understand.
Like religion, yeah right, likewhen you grow up in a religion
like the evangelical religion,it dictates a lot of how you
live.
So, like all of your values,all of your relationships with
family and with friends and work, all of I don't know, like
(29:27):
everything, that it's not thepriests.
The priest is from the HolyChurch.
How do you say?
Like the pastors?
Maybe the pastors?
Marie Berry (29:35):
yeah.
Dani Assis (29:36):
Everything that the pastors say, you just obey like
right.
It's difficult, but when thepastor is saying that we, the
progressives are, we the leftwing, that we are like Satanists
, because this is what they'redoing here, Right.
They're spreading fake newssaying that we have a
relationship with the devil,with the demon, because we want
(30:01):
to legalize abortion and becausewe want to marry people from
the same sex.
Yeah, right.
Like those people already lookat us with different eyes and
it's like impossible tocommunicate with them.
It's just impossible becauseit's about faith and it's about
where you grow and it's aboutwhat the pastor is saying.
(30:21):
It's about all the people thatare around you that think the
same way and it's impossible toaccess and it's violent to
access.
Marie Berry (30:29):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (30:31):
And I think, as queer women feminists, we will
not stop talking about abortionand sex, marriage and those
things that are like thoserights are not negotiable for us
.
Marie Berry (30:43):
Right.
Dani Assis (30:44):
And we have to negotiate them with the
religious people in order to winthis election.
And it hurts so much because ifLula, which is the candidate
that is running againstBolsonaro, has to go to the TV,
to the debate, to do some ads onTwitter or whatever, to say
that he is against abortion, Ifeel like we are already lost.
Marie Berry (31:08):
Yeah.
Dani Assis (31:09):
Because this is the left-wing candidate saying that
we will not legalize abortion inorder to win votes, and I am
advocating for this guy becausethe other side is just
completely insane, yeah right.
So it's like you feel a bitlost, because you're like okay,
so what have I been doing allthese years of activists that I
(31:31):
have not been?
I was not able to communicatewith those people, first of all.
So, and me as a communicator,as a journalist, I'm like, what
type of a communicator am?
Marie Berry (31:41):
I Because.
Dani Assis (31:42):
I cannot communicate with them, I cannot access them
, I cannot understand them.
What type of social scientistsam I?
Because I cannot?
This data it's just, it's wrong.
Marie Berry (31:54):
Right.
Dani Assis (31:55):
How can I read Brazilian society and do
something strategically tochange that, if I'm not
accessing those people, if theyare not showing up on polls, if
they are not we cannot talk, soit's difficult.
We are in a place where we'relike okay, how can I actually
change the world if I don't evenknow this world?
Marie Berry (32:18):
Yeah, that is a big , that is a big real question,
and I mean I think it's you'rein good company with that big,
real question, you know.
I think that's a lot of us aretrying to seek answers to that
how do we change the world rightif we're up against these
massive, massive challenges andsystems?
(32:39):
So, you know, one of thecampaigns that you've been
involved with recently has beenfocused on the Amazon Rainforest
, and I'm curious to know alittle bit more about that and
whether you felt like there weresome breakthroughs there or
some some kind of new models forways to do campaigns that
perhaps did make a difference,or tell us a little bit about
(33:01):
that campaign.
Dani Assis (33:02):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
So we've been talking and theorganization I'm working on,
that we want to do somethingabout the Amazon because it's
just even though there are manymovements and many serious
activists that have been workingon this issue for a long time,
(33:22):
the Amazon is just not somethingthat the Brazilian people in
general talk about.
So it's not something like yougo to a family meeting and
people who talk about theenvironment or will talk about
the Amazon or anyone will careabout that.
So people know that the Amazonis there, but it feels a little
bit distant.
So if you are in Sao Paulo,which is a city with 20 million
(33:48):
people in the south of thecountry, you know that the
Amazon exists and you study thisat school and you're like, okay
, we have this big forest in thecountry, but, first of all, the
chances you've ever steppedfoot on there is minimal.
Like you've just heard about iton books and movies and things
(34:08):
like that, but you've never beenthere.
We even have this like joke,like, okay, people go, people
from Sao Paulo most of the time,like if they can travel, if
they have the money to affordthat, they go to Europe.
They meet Europe and the US anda lot of other countries, and
they've never been to the AmazonLike you go to your own country
and it feels distant, it feelslike something that no one can
(34:34):
access.
And if it feels distant, how doyou care about that?
You will not care, like it'sjust not part of your daily life
and it's not something that youactually impact you, and we
were like we have to dosomething to make people that
are in the cities and there arenot located in the Amazon to
care about the Amazon and to seethat it actually has impacts in
(34:56):
everyday life and that itimpacts the food that we're
eating.
It impacts the price of theenergy we're paying here because
, Brazil's energy is based onhydroelectricity, so, like if we
(35:18):
are going through a moment ofdrought, for instance, this is
something that will impact ourpockets and it's something that
is totally related to theforestation and the Amazon
rainforest, because it changesthe whole rain system and the
whole region, and the Amazon isactually really present in
(35:40):
everything that we do.
And it's not something justabout the future.
Oh, we have to preserve theAmazon because of climate change
it is, but it's something thatis already impacting our lives
right now and we wanted peopleto be talking about it.
So we were like what can we do?
What type of campaign can westart doing to make this
(36:01):
actually happen, to make peopleact for the Amazon and care
about the Amazon and talk aboutthe Amazon?
So we came up with this planeto build a public demand view
called Amazonia de.
Marie Berry (36:17):
Pepe.
Dani Assis (36:19):
It's literally translated as Stending Amazon.
We want the Amazon to bestanding, not like on the ground
.
It makes sense in Portuguese,and we have this mechanism in
the Brazilian constitution thatallows the Brazilian population
to present a view in thenational Congress.
(36:40):
So it's not just aparliamentarian or the president
that has the power to presentviews to be discussed and to be
approved and to become laws inthe country.
So the population can also dothat through this public demand
view, which is called Projeto deLei de Iniciativo Popular.
So basically, what we have todo is to collect a median and a
(37:04):
half physical signatures so inpaper it's digital One and a
half million people have been inperson, like a hand, signature
Hand signature.
And presented in the nationalCongress and then it will be
discussed as a regular view.
Like it has the denormal.
(37:28):
I don't know, but it will go inthe national Congress as a
regular view and it will beapproved, it will be voted, it
will be sanctioned by thepresident afterwards and all
those things.
And we created this publicdemand view that it basically
should destinate more than 50million hectares of public
(37:49):
forests in the Amazon whichbelong to the Union.
It belongs, it's their publicpublic lands in the Amazon, but
they do not under care of anyone.
So, basically, like it's publicbut nothing happens there, so
it's very susceptible toinvasion.
(38:14):
And it's where thedeforestation rates are higher
in the forest because, like,since it is not destined to
anyone, it is not under care ofanyone, anyone can go there and
just deforest and just burn andjust start planting soy or
whatever the agribusiness wantsto do with the Amazon.
(38:36):
So, basically, you want todestiny all these 50 million
hectares to indigenous people,kilombolas and conservation
units, which are institutionshere in Brazil that take care of
the environment.
So yeah, by destinating thisamount of land, which is
(38:58):
equivalent to 57 millionfootball tanks, football fields,
Football fields yeah, Millionfootball fields.
Marie Berry (39:08):
okay, that's huge.
Dani Assis (39:09):
Yeah, it's a lot, it's huge.
We kind of guarantee by lawthat these lands are being
protected by people who know howto take care of the land,
because they've been there eversince the world is world like,
for thousands of years.
They are the best ones to takecare of the Amazon and it's
proved by the UN, by a lot ofimportant environmental
(39:34):
institutions.
Marie Berry (39:36):
Will you say that one more time?
So there's 15 million hectares.
That is part of this, and theidea is to designate it as land
that is under the protection ofand say that one more time the
groups and the entitiesIndigenous people kilombolas,
kilombolas.
Dani Assis (39:53):
I don't know if you're familiar with the term.
Marie Berry (39:55):
No.
Dani Assis (39:56):
Kilombolas are people, the African people, who
actually escaped slavery duringBrazil's colony.
So there was this resistancemovement of the slaves in Brazil
that they escaped the farmsthat they were working in the
places that they were workingand started creating communities
(40:17):
that were like far away fromthe cities.
So, yeah, to survive, and theyexist even today, like those
communities of kilombolas oflike, escaped, enslaved African
people who also, like, have thisancestral thing with the land
because they've been there for300 years, for 400 years, for a
(40:41):
long time and they've beenliving in those communities in
the forests and yeah in manydifferent places in the
countryside of Brazil.
Yeah, and we want to designateland to them as well.
Marie Berry (40:56):
Awesome, that's incredible.
Wait, so tell us then what isthe status of this and how did
you, did you, get the signatures?
Dani Assis (41:04):
Yeah.
So basically, like of course wewant to present this view and
we want this view to pass, butalso for us it's really
important the means to presentthis view.
So, like we decided to havethis campaign around the
signatures and the physicalsignatures because it kind of
(41:24):
obligates us to be on thestreets and to talk to people
and to not just like, send alink on Instagram and say, hey,
find this.
No, it's not just that, like.
You have to first of all sayall of these things that I just
told you.
So like talk about the publicland on the Amazon and the
deforestation and how the ratesof deforestation are high and
(41:47):
lands that are not protected,and how indigenous people in the
Lombolas communities are thebest people to save the forest.
So, like, everyone has thespeech on the tip of their
tongues and when they're talkingabout how you're putting these
to protect the forest and todesignate this public lands to
people who know how to protectit and who actually have been
(42:07):
fighting for the rights of theterritory ever since this
country exists, so you kind ofmake yeah, if you have to talk
about people on the streets and,like during festivals or during
a dinner, during a familydinner, to collect signatures,
you're actually startingconversations about the Amazon,
(42:29):
and this is our main goal.
Our main goal I wouldn't sayit's just the bill.
I think our main goal is tomake people talk about the
Amazon and to make this acentral debate in the country,
because it is urgent, because,yeah, it is very, very, very
urgent we need to start thisconversation.
(42:52):
So at the moment that so thereare many, many ways you can
collect a signature.
You can enter our website andjust download a paper with 10
signatures.
So you have a lot of things youneed to fill.
So you need to fill your fullname, you need to fill your
address, you need to fill yourvoter registration number
(43:13):
because you need to beregistered to vote in order to
sign a public demand billaccording to the rules of the
public demand.
So you like to download thispaper with all this information
and you can collect 10signatures in one paper.
So you can download it andcollect from your friends,
collect from your family.
(43:34):
You can go to a family dinnerand say hey, dad, hey mom, have
you heard the?
word of the Amazon referencetoday and start this
conversation in private spaces.
But there are also other waysyou can collect signatures.
You can be a volunteer at anevent, for instance.
So we were at Rocking Rio lastmonth.
Marie Berry (43:57):
Rocking.
Dani Assis (43:57):
Rio is one of the largest music festivals in the
world.
Like a lot of internationalattractions, like 10 days of
festivals.
I don't know if it's big, it'sawesome, it's real.
Like people from all over thecountry come to Rio just for
this festival and we had a teamof volunteers at the festival
collecting signatures, so likestopping people at the festival.
(44:18):
Hey, have you heard about theAmazon?
Hey, you know about the publicland in the Amazon that's not
being protected?
Hey, do you know about the rightof indigenous people to own the
land on the Amazon and thenjust start conversations with
people people that you know,people that you actually
download the paper and go talkto them, and people that you
(44:40):
don't know.
If you're a volunteer at anevent, for instance, we also
have some collection points.
So I don't know if you have avegan restaurant in your
neighborhood and you want tohave some papers there to
collect signatures of people,well, for your clients, people
who are there to eat your food,you can also have that.
(45:00):
So there are many ways that wecan collect those signatures and
we have to have those many ways, because a million and a half
to the lot and we need to bespread all over the country as
well, because okay, I could havea million and a half signatures
from Sao Paulo.
Sao Paulo itself has millions ofpeople, but no, you need to
(45:23):
have at least five differentstates, according to the rules,
and yeah, and you need to bespread all over the country,
basically.
So this is something reallynice, because we're not just
collecting signatures for peoplewho are living in the Amazon
region and we're not justcollecting signatures of people
who don't know anything that isgoing on there.
(45:44):
We're actually making amovement that's national and
that it's organized all over thecountry, which is really nice,
because then we make peopleunderstand that what happens in
the Amazon does not stay in theAmazon, that it is important
that I am in Rio right now andthat I sign something that's
(46:04):
going to save the rainforest andit's also going to save the
country and it's also going tosave the planet.
Like it escalates the importanceof doing what you're doing, and
then we have, like, yeah, somenarrative around it that it's
really nice, like, oh, you havethe power in your hands and it's
(46:30):
really nice, oh, I love it.
Yeah, I see it Cool yeah so,like literally, all you need to
do is sign.
Like the power is in your hands.
We're saying also that we arethe last generation that can
save this, the rainforest, thatcan save the Amazon.
So there is a sense of urgencyand also a sense of you can
actually do something about it,because I feel like the problem
(46:53):
with other campaigns about theenvironment, about the Amazon,
is like okay, we have thisterrible scenario, we might lose
the forest, we might have, yeah, a disaster and kind of change
as soon as possible andirreversible and very, very
disastrous.
Then we cannot do anythingabout it because, yeah, it's
(47:14):
just bigger than us.
Marie Berry (47:15):
Yeah, fatalism, where there's just so there's so
many the obstacles areinsurmountable and that leads to
this, really leads to inaction,because it paralyzes, I think,
so many people, because thechallenges we face really are so
big, exactly, but this you cando something so simple to save
(47:39):
it and to do your part, likeeveryone can be a part of it,
and it's like people want to act.
Dani Assis (47:46):
People want to, so they can actually make an impact
, but not everyone has time noteveryone, I don't know and when
you come with the plan and justsay you just have to do this,
you just have to sign this, youactually feel powerful to like
they are doing something that ismaking an impact.
And this is really nice to seethat you actually have power to
(48:09):
do stuff and to change thingsand to move forward.
Marie Berry (48:14):
I'm with you, I agree.
Dani Assis (48:16):
I actually think, like the, that Amazonia GP is
one of the most creative inthose in this sense, because I
feel like we're using amechanism, a democratic
mechanism that is projected inthe constitution, to create a
movement, and it's like we arebelieving in the institution,
(48:40):
which is something nice.
We are believing that we areable to change things through
institutional ways and usingdemocratic tools.
And, yeah, and I think this isreally nice because, like, we've
been able to actually use a lotof culture as a mobilization
(49:01):
strategy.
So last month, in September 5thyeah, september 5th it was the
Amazon day here in Brazil and weorganized eight different
festivals around the country andwe also had an open call for
actions.
So there were over 600 actionshappening all over the country
(49:26):
during the week of the Amazonday and it was amazing to see
how widespread the movement is.
And I think this is nicebecause, like, when you say, oh,
what creative tools you had inyour movements and everything, I
feel like the most creativething you can do is to let it to
lose control and let people becreative on their own.
(49:46):
Like I feel like losing controlof the movement is one of the
most beautiful things that canhappen to a movement, and I feel
like this is happening rightnow with our movement, when we
have over 600 actions beingorganized in all five regions of
the country and it goes fromyoga classes at the park with
like I don't know, 10, 15 peoplethat go to the yoga class, but
(50:10):
it has like the flag of themovement and people are
collecting signatures at theyoga class and talking about the
Amazon at the yoga class.
And you have a festival as bigas the one that we had here in
Rio, like with thousands ofpeople listening to a very
famous Brazilian singer, whichis called Géa Resededo, in a
free public event, and all ofthese thousands of people that
(50:33):
were in this festival were alsocollecting signatures.
And then you have, like schoolteachers who are mobilizing
their schools and doing likedraw contests in their schools
about the Amazon.
And then you see, like thevideos of the little kids
drawing trees and drawing cutestuff and saying, hey, you have
to save the Amazon People whoare very far away from the
(50:54):
Amazon, small kids.
They're not collectingsignatures because they cannot
sign.
You need to be 16 or over andhave them be registered to vote
in order to sign the bill.
But you're educating kidsaround the Amazon and you're
making the kids fair and sign it, and you're making the kids go
to their houses after school andsay hey dad, have you heard
(51:16):
about Amazon?
Hey dad, do you know thatthere's this big ring forest in
the North of the country that wehave to save?
And then, like you, put allthose actions together in one
week of action to for the sakeof the forest, and you see that
people can get really creativeand that there are amazing
(51:38):
things that can grow when youdecentralize things and you let
people's creativity free, likenot dictate how the movement
should happen.
Hey you should do an event likethis with a music presentation
and with a place for people tosign.
No, there's no perfect plan forthis.
(51:59):
Like you just say, hey, you cando any cultural activity or any
educational activity, anypolitical activity you want in
order to collect thosesignatures and to talk about the
Amazon.
And it just surprises me andamazes me every time how
creative people can be and howamazing things can grow.
For that, and see how themovement has grown in all
(52:23):
regions of the country, it'sreally beautiful, it's really
nice.
Marie Berry (52:26):
Oh, that's so beautiful.
I mean, I just think that'ssuch a powerful statement around
.
You know this, the beauty thatcan be found in losing control
and what can flourish and whatcan really really what can be
generated in those moments inwhich nobody's telling you what
to do.
There's not this kind ofdirective coming from the
leadership, but instead there'sa real embracing of what people
(52:51):
feel can be a joyful way of ofcreating something that can also
support.
You know the gathering ofsignatures and the education
that comes around that.
I think that's really great.
You, you, you, you.
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