August 16, 2023 • 65 mins
Join us in a captivating discussion with Venezuelan activist and political scientist Isabella Picón, as we delve into her journey – from learning to read newspapers with her grandmother to standing up against dictatorship. Have you ever wondered what it takes to foster resilience in the face of autocratic rule? Isa shares her experiences with civil resistance campaigns, the foundations of Labo Ciudadano, and her evolving understanding of how traditional politics have limitations in the rebuilding of a country wrecked by decades of oppressive rule.
Our conversation takes enlightening turns as we dissect the group’s evolution from a tactical group focused on protests to a civil society-oriented organization. Ever thought about the significance of 'embodiment' in activism? We talk about it, and how something as simple as yoga can bolster discipline and body consciousness in nonviolent protests. Furthermore, we touch upon the evolution of Labo's focus towards human rights and environmental issues, and the increasing acceptance of queer rights and feminism within the movement. We also highlight the importance of traditional songs in protests, the ongoing threats that loom over Venezuelans, and the complex endeavor of creating a democratic community in an authoritarian landscape.
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Episode Transcript
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Marie Berry (00:03):
Music playing.
Welcome to what the World WillBecome a podcast about the
humans who dedicate their livesto building a more free and just
world.
My name is Marie Berry.
(00:24):
I'm a feminist researcher andwriter, and I've spent the
better part of the past 20 yearsresearching and thinking about
how women experience war and itsaftermath.
I've done research in placeslike Rwanda, Bosnia, Kenya,
Nepal and Colombia, and I'veinterviewed hundreds of women
whose lives have been shaped byviolence.
Along the way, I have beenrepeatedly struck by two
(00:46):
simultaneous truths the first isthat violence is devastating,
leaving those who survive itwith trauma and grief that can
last for years and evengenerations.
But the second is that, even inthe most bleak and impossible
of situations, there is often agreat beauty, a way that those
who suffer from violence findlove, joy and resilience that
(01:08):
can creatively forge new pathsforward, paths that offer us
profound hope and possibilityfor building a more just and
free world.
Music playing.
My guest today is Issa BellaPiccone, a Venezuelan activist
and political scientist based inCaracas, Venezuela, Issa was a
(01:29):
central participant in the 2017and 2019 civil resistance
campaigns against thedictatorship of Nicolás Maduro.
During this period, sheco-founded Labo Ciudadano, a
laboratory for social innovationthat co-designs experiences of
nonviolent collective action.
She also claims to connect andagitate diverse groups of people
(01:52):
in order to occupy civic spacein alternative ways, Sometimes
through art and singing,sometimes through cultural
actions or workshops, or throughconversations around human
rights and non-hegemonicpolitics.
I've been lucky to know Issasince 2018, when she attended
the Second Iglis SummerInstitute.
Over the years, we've been ableto collaborate on many
(02:14):
different ways, including toconvene activists from different
movements across Latin Americaand the world, and across all of
this, I've realized that one ofIssa's superpowers is that she
is a brilliant nerd.
She loves to read, study andask questions about why things
worked or didn't, whatalternative strategies might be
possible and how, ultimately, wecan work in different
(02:35):
modalities to ensure that hercountry, Venezuela, becomes a
place that all can thrive inagain.
Well, Issa, why don't you startus off by just introducing
yourself?
Isa (02:50):
Yeah, I'm a Venezuelan activist and researcher, now
based in Caracas, but I havelived in and started in Italy,
in the United States, and morerecently I did a Masters in
Political Communication inLondon.
I guess a few years ago I usedto be more of an activist and
now I'm a little bit more of aresearcher, my research being
(03:12):
very informed by my experiencein activism and civil society
organization and in politicaland electoral campaigns here in
Venezuela, and I'm very muchpassionate about the
intersection betweeninstitutional and social
movement politics, and I'vealways been involved in global
(03:32):
and multicultural systems andcommunities.
So I'm very much about activism, multicultural and depolarizing
forms of activism.
Marie Berry (03:44):
I love that and I know that you've been doing this
work for a while now and I'mcurious if you could tell us a
little bit about what drew youin and what kind of convinced
you that this work both the workthat you've done as an activist
, but also the work that you'renow doing really as an applied
researcher what catalyzed thatcommitment and those interests
(04:07):
for you?
Isa (04:08):
Well, first I have to mention my grandma.
My grandma taught me how toread the newspaper, and she's
one of those people that she wasa feminist but didn't say that
she was a feminist.
And she was very sociallyconscious but didn't say much.
It just wasn't the way that shetreated people that were more
(04:32):
fortunate than she was.
So I grew up with that exampleand then adolescence came, and
with adolescence was when Chavezrose to power, when we saw
Chavismo as a social movementand as a political force, sort
of coming to the country, andhow that shifted, how politics
(04:54):
was practiced in Venezuela,first with political
polarization and then democraticbacksliding.
But I was away for most of thetime of the Chavez period
because I was starting abroad.
And then it came back and Istarted working in the electoral
campaigns and I worked in themunicipal government.
So I was an activist.
(05:16):
I was more of a consultant, aperson that wanted to be
involved in politics, and thenpeople very close to me started
getting arrested for doingpolitics and it became very
personal, like this thing aboutpolitics becoming personal isn't
something that necessarilyhappens naturally.
(05:37):
It happens when it affects yourlife and even though I was
interested in politics, it wasmore of an intellectual exercise
sometimes than I have to dosomething now.
So that was in 2016, and in 2017, the protest came Like there
(05:58):
was a huge movement, veryspontaneous, that started
happening in a position to whatwas becoming an autocracy
because yeah, it was, esmerudoofficially became an autocracy
in 2016, and I was starting torealize that elections alone
(06:20):
were not going to get us out ofthe mess we were in.
Elections and institutionalpolitics alone were not going to
rebuild.
We're not going to give upproposal as strong as what
Chavez proposed in his time in1998.
And I started, and then, whenthe protest came, I completely
(06:42):
like immersed myself in it andwe found it something like
something called the CivicLaboratories, and the Civic
Laboratory during the protestwas about bringing people
together to learn aboutnonviolence, to innovate, to do
tactical innovation, because werealized that people were
(07:03):
protesting all the time in thesame way, sort of being more
objects than subjects, you know,being objects, that sort of
clash with the police, ratherthan people that were saying,
okay, I am for this, I wanthuman rights, I want democracy
and I am practicing those rightsin this way.
So we found that that, and thenmy father got arrested, and
(07:26):
because my father got arrested.
I got involved with the humanrights movement because they
were the ones sort of like youknow, like me denouncing my
dad's arrest was much morelegitimate to denounce it on the
human rights under the umbrellaof the human rights movement
(07:47):
than under the umbrella of thepolitical organizations that
were seeking to legitimatelytopple the regime.
I was way more, in a way, moresecure in my plight if I did it
under a human rights discourse.
So that year of 2017, I startedactually understanding what
(08:09):
nonviolence was and what humanrights were, are, and this is
what changed my life.
Marie Berry (08:17):
This is like in 2016, when Venezuela became
officially an authoritarianregime, I was looking for a
solution that was beyondinstitutional politics, and in
2017, I found it, which washuman rights and nonviolence,
and I found sort of my people todo it with yeah, and you've
(08:43):
created, you've painted such animportant distinction between
what's possible within theconfines of the current
political environment andpolitical institutions, through
elections and so forth, and then, in those moments when it's
simply not possible to achievethe change that is so urgent and
so essential for people's livesthrough those processes, it
(09:05):
requires imagination and itrequires these more alternative
and creative strategies forthinking about social
transformation and human rights,as you said.
Can you tell us just a littlebit about?
You mentioned that peoplearound you started getting
arrested, right.
What was it like?
Who were these people?
What were they doing?
What was it like to live in anenvironment especially after
(09:30):
Maduro came to power and thissome of the allure of the
Shavista and rain became thisdeeply authoritarian structure
of governance?
What was it like to live inCaracas as you were living?
whenever you were there duringthat time.
Isa (09:50):
So in 2016, the oil prices went down like in late 2014,
2015.
So you would start seeing likebig lines for food and inflation
started becoming hyperinflation.
So you could see a big socialdeterioration in the country and
(10:13):
the opposition started doing aninitiative called the Recall
Referendum, which is do a bigelection to decide whether we
want the president to continueor not.
And my boss I worked in themunicipal government and my boss
he belonged to a politicalparty.
I was not in a political partybut he did.
(10:33):
And one of those weekends theywere doing a big signature drive
and he went on his car fromCaracas to a very, to a city
that was six hours from Caracas,and he got arrested and he got
released about four months later.
(10:53):
But yeah, that was my, I hadbeen working for him for three
years and it was him and he wasanother friend of mine that also
worked with me in themunicipality and yeah, and then
they eventually they kind ofcancelled like the government
cancelled the drive for thereferendum initiative and I was
(11:16):
like there was no institutionalway of of making a change.
And eventually that's what likethe protest sort of start and
the position of the oppositionthat there was no other way but
to do a protest and to seek achange.
(11:38):
That was not throughnegotiation but through, like
you know, sort of like a rupturein the regime and to the
decision of the opposition.
To seek a rupture in the regimethrough protest came as a
result of 2016 and how theirrepression increases in 2016.
(11:59):
But yeah, it was a combinationof like social of heave all and
social and economic unrest, withjust the institutional windows
and doors completely closing.
Marie Berry (12:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, that makes a tonof sense.
So as you became more and moreinvolved in this opposition
movement, which became reallyrooted in the streets and in
protests, you know what weresome of the successes or some of
the kind of specific moments oryou felt like the movement was
(12:36):
making a difference, wasactually having success.
Isa (12:40):
So when the protest started , the repression is very high
from the beginning and I startedfeeling unsafe and we started
doing this thing that we calllaboratorio, the civic lab.
And then I started like seeingpeople coming to my house and
like brainstorming ideas of whatto do and one day we decided
(13:03):
that we wanted to make a bannermade of currency, of bills,
because we wanted to protest thedevaluation of the currency and
hyperinflation.
So we were like you know, thisprotest is not only about
political rights, it's alsoabout the social unrest that
people are living Like.
(13:24):
So there was a protest goingtowards the center of the city
and we decided to do the proteston the other side of the city
and like sort of in alliancewith the community and with
cultural groups that weresinging and that were making
music, and we made over like aweek.
We collected bills and we madea 20 meter banner and those 20
(13:52):
meters was only $1.
So $1 was a 20 meter banner andwe did that that day and the
repression on the actual Marchwas super.
That was terrible that day, butthe news that day was not only
(14:13):
about the repression but aboutthese crazy people that had done
the banner.
You know, in a popular area,you know, like.
So this was for me like an a hamoment.
It was like wow, if youactually are, if you when you
are actually creative and whenyou work with the community, et
cetera, this is a way ofchanneling.
(14:36):
You know what you want, whichis we don't want hyperinflation,
we want the currency thatdemonstrates what work is.
You know that you can do workand receive something that is
actually of value, that you canbuy something with it, not like
nothing, you know.
So, yeah, we started doing that.
(14:59):
That was a big win, and I thinkthe big win in general of that
experience is the civil societyneeding itself in a context of
so much violence and so muchviolent discourse, because I
mean, at the same time that youare doing nonviolence.
The discourse is you should notexist, and the other one says
(15:22):
you should not exist either, andnonviolence is not, you know,
in a vacuum, it's just it'salways kind of going through.
You know it's like a serpentthat's trying to like sneak
itself in in like some creases,and so that community, made of
(15:47):
activists people that actuallywere not activists, that were
becoming activists is stillthere.
You know many people have leftthe country.
Many people are doing somethingelse, but many are still doing
human rights, are still doingactivism, and they still have
that memory of 2017, when civilsociety rose and said you know,
(16:12):
we can do things our way, we canorganize ourselves autonomously
.
And yeah, so I think it's abefore and after moment in
Venezuela and democratic history2017.
Because it was not only aboutprotesting.
It was about protesting in anorganized and nonviolent way.
Marie Berry (16:32):
And it was about building an alternative right To
the current political realityand to the absolutely kind of
objectively horrible andimpoverished conditions in which
the vast majority ofVenezuelans were living at the
time.
I think that's incrediblypowerful.
(16:52):
I'm wondering if you can tellus about some of the specific
things that you did during thatperiod of time with LABO that
you know were about kind ofthese creative solutions and
ways of building thesealternative infrastructures or
alternatives to the kind ofcurrent political reality and
status quo, especially thinkingabout concrete examples that
(17:14):
might actually inspire activistsor people that are living
through regimes that are notthat dissimilar in many ways
from the Maduro regime in otherparts of the world.
Isa (17:23):
Yeah, I can say that there's something we learned.
I mean, we were LABO was verytactical in 2017.
We were more like, okay, let'sdo this in another way, et
cetera.
But we were not about thestrategy in general or
construction alternative systems.
We were babies.
It is, after we lose, weactually, you know, we didn't
(17:48):
win.
We, 2017 in the end.
The repression, you know,absolutely was terrible and we,
the opposition, didn't playtheir cards right, our cards
right, and we lost theopportunity and LABO.
But LABO became something else.
That was not only about protestbut about, you know, knitting
(18:10):
civil society together, etcetera, and by but, I can say
that in 2017, we did a fewthings.
First, this ritual of meetingwith each other every week,
doing this open meetings, wherepeople would go to the meetings
and learn about nonviolence andthen brainstorm about different
(18:31):
things that we could do, andthat's so.
This ritual of like every weekinviting, doing this open
meetings of people that theycould either be part of an
organization or not that wantedto learn about nonviolence and
what I wanted to innovate.
So we, we sort of learned howto do that and basically, it
(18:57):
meant that it needed some kindof moderation.
It needed, you know, an openspace and a safe space where
people would end up meeting ingroups, in specific groups, to
follow certain idea, because itwas a volunteer basis.
So, okay, I like this idea andeveryone that likes this idea
goes together and they developit and whatever happens with
(19:20):
that idea, great.
So it's just, you like, alloweach initiative to gain, to
develop and each person to sortof to contribute in any way they
want.
So that's something that workedwhile the protest movement was
(19:42):
happening and I would recommend,I think that's a really good
way of coming up with, you know,like tactical innovation when
movements are taking place.
But when the movement hadalready like died a little and
we were sort of all back in ourhomes, a small group of us kept
(20:03):
meeting and we did yoga, like.
We did yoga like twice a weekand it was a very good way of
like regenerating ourselves andof gaining a lot of body
consciousness, I think, andbecause I think non-violence
requires a lot of consciousconscious of the body itself
(20:25):
because you know, if you'resaying that, okay, we should not
be violent, but you have to beconscious of your own body and
there are so many things in aprotest that tell you that you
know you should throw a stone orwhatever.
Not that I reject completelywhen people do that, but when
you are asking people to have acertain kind of discipline, it's
(20:47):
good to do something like yogain a group.
Marie Berry (20:50):
Yeah, tell me a little more about that, Issa.
Like in what ways did you findthat the work that you were
doing required a commitment toembodiment, Like a sense of your
body, right?
I just I know you know on ourconversations a little bit about
like the way in which singingand things like that came out of
protest, and I'm curious if youcould just talk a little more
about how the body mattered, andespecially for those of you in
(21:14):
Labo who were not straight rightor who were engaged, you know,
who were maybe experiencingmultiple and kind of layered
forms of marginalization, notonly from the state but from the
broader society.
Isa (21:26):
Yeah, so after Labo we started meeting and someone came
in the group that was a yogateacher and she started talking
a lot about the importance ofthe body and non-violence and we
, and a lot of us, were verytraumatized from what had
happened, from things that thatyou know, violence that had
(21:49):
occurred during the protest, orjust the trauma of being you
know, of the human rightsviolations that were happening
to others, etc.
So we started doing yoga twicea week and this was important
because first it like as a groupwe kind of bonded more, but
personally, in my process oflike coming out and realizing
(22:13):
that I that I was not straight,or like accepting that I think
doing yoga was really importantI cannot say exactly why, but
like having those two or threehours a week, sort of and and
like in contact with my bodybecause I've been usually more
(22:34):
about my mind that about my bodythat was really important for
me.
And and then then being likethe movement as a body and like
or like us becoming moretogether with the human rights,
with human rights activists,because I feel what I realize is
that in the human rightsmovement there are more queers,
(22:57):
or at least there are morequeers than there are more open
queers or that are like out ofthe closet, as you would say,
here in Venezuela.
I think there are a lot of gaypeople in Venezuela, but maybe
they're not completely out, butmore of them in the human rights
movement are out.
So the human rights movement isusually and I think human
(23:20):
rights movements in general aremore queer and I think the
acceptance that I found thereand the, the diversity that I
found there, as Laval becamemore ingrained with the human
rights community, I was like,well, these are, these are
definitely my people and theseare people that had been seen
(23:41):
the intersection betweenauthoritarianism and feminism
and gay rights, queer rights.
These people have been seenthat since the 90s, since the
80s, because that's what humanrights is about.
So for me personally, like doingyoga at the same time as
(24:03):
getting to know the human rightsmovement and the activists
there was very, completelyeye-opening.
Because before I guess the wayI saw politics and the way I saw
Venezuelan politics was like,okay, we're going through a
democratic transition and weneed to achieve the democratic
transition, and others perhapssaw it as okay, you know, the
(24:23):
way we're doing protests isbeing violent and this is
detrimental, strategicallydetrimental towards the movement
.
So we need to do tacticalinnovation and based which.
Each of us activists saw itwith our own little like in a
little square and then westarted saying, oh no, it's like
this is not only about tacticalinnovation, this is not only a
(24:45):
democratic transition.
This is about human rights,this is about queer rights, this
is about feminism, this isabout the, the environment, etc.
And and yeah, you know the like2018 was about sort of looking
inside Laos and the crowd, butrights is about queer rights is
about feminism.
Marie Berry (25:05):
This is about you were saying that it's not only
about democratic transition,it's not only about tactical
innovation.
Isa (25:12):
Yeah, how do you say?
Well, like when, like the, the,the things that the, that the
horses have blinders.
The blinders, like each of ushave had different blinders.
I was about the democratictransition.
Angel was about the tacticalinnovation.
The other one was about, youknow, the role of the housewives
(25:35):
in the protest movement.
So like finding a way that thehousewives could, but each of us
had their own blinders, our ownlittle focus, and then, in 2018
, we sort of started realizingthe different layers that united
all of that.
What were those?
Marie Berry (25:51):
layers.
Isa (25:52):
Well, those layers were, I mean this thing about, I mean
what?
What human rights gives you,which is different layers, which
is the you know, theenvironment, like queer rights,
human rights, like democracy ingeneral, and how.
It's not only about, you know,we're not only fighting
authoritarianism.
(26:12):
We need, we also need, likesome, some kind of democratic
structures that are internal.
So we started realizing thatthat within our movement there
were also very, you know,authoritarian tendencies,
initiatives, etc.
So how could we, you know,manage that internally and how
could we change that internally?
And, yeah, each of us have hadour own blinders and by like
(26:36):
understanding what the layerswere of what we wanted to do, we
kind of realized that I would abit more like the purpose and
the long-term purpose of whatLaos wanted to do.
And this allowed us to makealliances with like emergent
movements that a lot of themhave come from the left, like
(26:58):
feminist movements that usuallythat used to be shavistas but
sort of are now against Maduroand they're kind of politically
against everything but for humanwomen's rights in general.
And we, we, we, we have formedimportant alliances with them as
(27:19):
well with with other, withenvironmental organizations, etc
.
So this, this allows us to havelike a more transversal view of
what politics is about, and notonly you know.
Marie Berry (27:34):
We want a democratic transition, yes, but
this democracy needs to havethis, I mean what you're
speaking about, is so importantand I think is something that
characterizes so many movementstoday, which is that oftentimes
we come to the movements withour own particular interests or
focuses.
Right, we are interested inwomen's advancement, we're
(27:55):
interested in queer rights,we're interested in the
environment.
We are, we are invested in, youknow, thinking, thinking about
how to advance racial justice.
Right, and we see these causes,at least in the day-to-day
operations of of our movements,sometimes as distinct, but the
reality, of course, is thatthey're deeply linked and and
they share a root in the samestructures that are causing
(28:17):
gender discrimination and racialdiscrimination and queer
discrimination and thedestruction of the environment.
At the same time, right, and Ithink just having this
recognition that that thatmovements are strongest when we
can really see the deepinterdependence and
interconnection of everybody's,of the root, the roots of
(28:40):
everybody's respective struggles, I think what you, what you
just articulated there is is, isincredibly powerful and
important in thinking about how,actually, in the praxis of
organizing, it's so essential toagain remove the blinders, to
think about where the sharedsynergy is, because it's in that
shared work that movements gaintheir power.
Isa (29:01):
And the the challenging thing is that it takes time to
learn that each movement hastheir own learning experience
and each activist has their ownlearning experience and the
process by each by which theystart removing the blinders, and
it requires and and politicssometimes is more you know once
(29:24):
things quickly andunderstandably, obviously,
because we, we need really wereally need these changes
urgently.
So there's a balance betweenyou know the the learning
process of movements and what wecan actually achieve right now.
I guess.
Marie Berry (29:42):
Can you tell us a little bit more about some of
the specific activities orinnovations or work that you did
with Labo, some of the some ofthe innovations or the work that
you're most kind of proud of orthat you found to be effective?
Isa (29:55):
So in after we sort of became more of a community in
2018, when the, when the newmovement or or sort of like a
new wave or a new prototype camein January 2019, we were way
more integrated and way moreclear about our role in that, so
(30:15):
that internal work sort of paysoff.
And we, when when Guaidó callsto the streets to say you know,
we, we are the National Assembly, the 2018 election was a fraud,
we are now the, we are gonnaorganize interim government, and
we were not necessarily verypro Guaidó, but we were pro
(30:37):
democracies for sure.
So we started doing this chancekind of in support of the
movement but critical of thealliance with Trump.
So it said one of them was nosomos Putin, we are not Putin.
No somos Trump, we are notTrump.
We are united against theoppressor.
Somos el pueblo unido contra elopresor.
(31:00):
No somos Putin, no somos Trump.
Somos el pueblo unido contra elopresor.
So those kinds of chans and manyof them were taken more like
from leftist Argentinian, likemore peronist, even songs and
kind of, you know, like thetradition that comes from the
(31:25):
Southern Cone that, throughworkers' movements, has traveled
to Venezuela and those workermovements are now in the
opposition and we learn itthrough them.
So we just changed the lyricsBecause we have in Lavo people
that are in theater and thatknow how to do music I'm not one
of them, for sure, but Ichanted them.
(31:47):
So those kinds of depolarizingchans that we explore because we
need new contents, we needthings that are new, that are
not just about depolarizingMaduro.
So that was important.
And then this dialogueinitially is that we called
(32:08):
víraz despolarizadas depolarizedbeers and through those
initiatives we brought peopletogether from that were
basically former chavistas oreven current chavistas, and we
talked about issues that werecontroversial.
Sort of, for example, dialoguelike so there was a proposal in
(32:33):
2019 to do a negotiation withthe regime to do, like they
called it, the acuerdo eléctrico, the agreement for the
electricity.
So they were going to someone,was going to a big bank, was
going to give a loan to do somechanges in terms of electricity
(32:54):
so that there is moreelectricity, and both parts were
completely against it.
But this is what we call like apartial agreement.
So part of the civil societywas like we should achieve this
partial agreement so that forthe possibility of eventually
like a more integral agreementfor Venezuelan democracy.
(33:16):
And this was not achieved, butwe brought these two parts
together to talk about it.
So, and this, the same was withOver beer.
Yeah, over beer, over beer.
So it was like kind of tryingto have a relaxed atmosphere to
talk about issues.
Marie Berry (33:36):
I love that, and I think it also just reaffirms the
need for human dialogue andconnection in these exceedingly
polarized contexts.
Isa (33:47):
Right, yeah, and you cannot ignore that it is a polarized
context.
But if you don't build certainrelationships and these people
at least don't know each otherface by face and in a little bit
more of a disstanderenvironment, then it's
absolutely impossible.
And this was an internalopposition Like this were all
(34:09):
people that were from theopposition.
It was not like we werebringing Shavista, an opposition
together.
This were people that in theopposition, that some of them
agree with a negotiatedagreement and others are still
saying we need to depose Maduro.
Marie Berry (34:25):
So trying to bridge those create, yeah, again, to
find additional sort of ways ofunderstanding where each
approach or each perspective wascoming from.
Isa (34:36):
I think that's really important, yeah and it's not
about convincing the other.
Like this, dialogue efforts arenot about convincing the other.
It's about knowing where theother one is coming from Right.
Marie Berry (34:48):
Can you expand on that a little bit more?
Why is that important to knowwhere the other one's coming
from?
Isa (34:53):
Okay, so this is like basic theory is like you have
positions and you have needs Ithink it's something what
positions and needs and you needto know the need of the other,
but, like in an institutional,formal dialogue, no one is going
to tell you what their actualneed is Like.
(35:15):
Okay, so I now I want a partialagreement with, I want the
opposition to pursue a partialagreement with the Maduro's
government, and I'm talking tosomeone that does not want a
partial agreement.
They want just a regime change.
So that's that's the positioneach of us say in the media, in
(35:38):
front of the media, on Twitter,but our positions come from a
specific need that maybe youknow, I don't know it comes to
even psychology.
You know, you know your, your,your your origins as an activist
, or like some lesson you'relearning in 2017 that maybe it's
(36:00):
impossible to do a regimechange.
But maybe it is possible to doa regime change, but just
through another strategy, Idon't know.
But the point is that if you,you need to put down to get the
dialogue is certain needs to endup about needs and about
understanding those needs, andthat dialogue is not going to
(36:20):
happen, usually from people thatare in the elite because they
cannot afford to talk abouttheir needs.
It's going to happen in more,maybe in medium, like medium
rank activists and and and thegrassroots, and not everyone can
have that dialogue either.
It's about temperament, it'sabout the moment in your life
(36:41):
you're at, etc.
And you need to understand thatsome people cannot do that.
Not everyone has the same rolein a movement, but the point is
the point is that creating,creating and managing those
spaces where people sort of canknow, get to know each other and
talk a little bit more abouttheir needs than about their
(37:03):
official positions regarding aconflict that I think is a role
in a democracy and in anymovement.
Marie Berry (37:12):
Actually, what that reminded me of is this is this,
this remarkable interview thatthat Krista Tippett did with
Francis Kisling, which, who wasthe director of Catholics for
Choice for many years, about the, about the kind of flawed logic
in some ways, around the needto find common ground when, when
you're building up kind ofstrength in a movement, and it
(37:34):
really it was always a really itwas a powerful shift for me
when I, when I, when Iunderstood what, what Francis
Kisling was saying, which isthat you don't actually need to
find common ground, what youneed to do is have deep
understanding and empathy ofwhere the other side is coming
from, and that that is actuallygoing to strengthen your work,
(37:55):
more than trying to say you know, you and I agree on this one
thing, but we disagree on somany other things, and I think
what you had just articulatedabout that this kind of the
importance of creating space toreally allow for people that are
on the same side, right of thebroader movement, but who may
find a fissures that then canactually sort of unravel their,
(38:18):
their solidarity and momentumbecause they disagree on certain
things, this, this, this theimportance of building space for
them to really talk throughthose fissures in a way that
centers on again their needs, asyou put it, and their
experiences.
To me that bodes, that that hasa powerful sort of it holds
(38:39):
promise, I think, for thinkingabout ways to heal or to at
least kind of strengthen aparticular movement, despite all
of the kind of many differencesthat that movement actors and
activists inevitably have witheach other, which too often can
(38:59):
lead to the kind of dissolutionor kind of fracturing of the
movement itself.
So thanks for sharing that.
Isa (39:06):
Yeah, about understanding a little bit the role of that
each person has in the movement.
Obviously you need tounderstand what the boundaries
are.
You know, like there are somethings that are unacceptable,
but if too many things arecompletely unacceptable, then
then everyone is doing the samething and so you need in a
movement you need some kind ofdivision of labor and that
(39:29):
division of labor can be dividedupon.
You know the interests andneeds and you just serve.
The fact that a person doesn'tdo things exactly the way you
want to do them Doesn't meanthat that thing is not
completely, you know,unnecessary.
And we have talked in Laos a lotabout aesthetics and how, when
(39:50):
we talk about art, when we talkabout art, like okay, marie, you
like blue, maybe I don't likeblue, this is just a visual
question, this is the way it is,it's not that important.
And like talking aboutaesthetics Can actually help
build the path towards like thiskind of dialogue, because Sort
(40:12):
of everyone respects when they,when we disagree about
aesthetics, you know it's likeokay, fine, you know, but
Talking, but when, when, whenyou make it about something
Substantial, then suddenlydisagreement is completely.
You know, you know I'm terrible, you know it's, it's
(40:33):
unacceptable.
Marie Berry (40:34):
Well, I bet that goes both ways too, because it's
not just about the things likeyou and I can disagree about the
merits of the Color blue, butyou and I can also find a deep,
you know, love and appreciationof beauty in something that
perhaps is that you know kind ofevokes awe in both of us, and
and that is a all another kindof grounding place for for
(40:55):
building and cultivatingsolidarity and connection.
Isa (40:58):
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
So this is why you know cultureand aesthetics is actually
really important.
Like people completely dismissit, but but it's actually a way
of, you know, bringing peopletogether.
I want to.
Marie Berry (41:12):
I want to invite you to share a little bit about
something that I know about,which is about the way in which
some of the people you workedwith in in these protests used
kind of traditional Venezuelansongs as part of the actually
part of the, the kind of, again,the protest itself.
Can you just describe a littlebit about how that came about
and how you observed orparticipated or saw that
(41:33):
happening?
Isa (41:35):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so in again.
In 2017, different groupsOrganically organized around
what they wanted to see in theprotest that they were not
necessarily seeing.
So what you saw in the protestwas a mass of people just
clashing against the policeforces and mostly a lot of young
(41:56):
people Doing the heavy work,you know.
But eventually you would seemore Middle-aged elderly people
doing their own thing and if,young people doing our own thing
too.
So one of these groups wasPiloneras and the cantos de
pilón.
The I don't know the Pilonchance are traditional, a
(42:19):
traditional Venezuelan musicthat that woman sing when they
are, when they're doing laundry,usually like together in the in
the I don't know in the townwhere they work, when there is
water.
So it says I don't know, Ireally don't know how to sing.
(42:41):
I'm sorry, but it has a certaincadence that is always the same
.
And so a woman that is very youknow, she's a, she's a singer,
you know, kind of broughttogether other women that wanted
to write lyrics and to sing etc.
And, yeah, they started sort ofdoing their own you know, you
(43:04):
know tactical innovation andthey kind of started coming to
logo because and they, you know,they they kind of merge with
other forms of creative protestat the protests, the protest
amazing yeah so this would givea different image, a different
sound, and then the protestbecomes A sensorial experience
(43:27):
that is not only about the clashand about the violence.
It's also about what you see,about what you listen, about,
what you feel.
There, the protest and politicsis a body experience that you
can make as Pleasurable as youthink is possible.
But guess, what we have beentaught is that politics is
(43:47):
Completely unpleasurable, right?
Marie Berry (43:50):
I think that's such a beautiful way to put it,
though, that that that protestcan be a Sensorial you said, an
embodied experience, right, andthat that also, I think, reminds
us of our deep sort of sharedhumanity, right, that the kind
of the invitation to engage insomething pleasurable, the
invitation to engage insomething even joyful or playful
, can remind us, too, of thestakes of what we're fighting
(44:13):
for.
So I want to ask you to, I wantto shift gears a little bit,
which is you know, you mentioneda few minutes ago that you
didn't win, right, that the, theprotests weren't ultimately
successful in ousting Maduro andI.
You know, of course, there'sbeen, I know, many different
(44:34):
challenges along the way, andI'm curious, and I'm interested
in if you can tell us a bitabout the, the ongoing situation
and the threats that arecurrently sort of facing
Venezuelans today.
Isa (44:46):
Well, first disclaimer, I came back two weeks ago.
I've been doing my master's, soI'm I'm not, I'm not in any
present danger myself.
The I would say there are threebig threats.
One is authoritarianism.
I mean, there was an election,there was a regional election
(45:09):
Last December.
It kind of improved a littlebit in terms of, like, electoral
guarantees, but electoralguarantees are not human rights.
Human rights are still violated.
There are still 364 politicalprisoners, 149 of them are
workers, you know, from nationalenterprises or industries that
(45:29):
have been imprisoned fororganizing to ask for better
working conditions, and thisfrom a government that calls
itself leftist and revolutionary.
So then, and and, and I wouldsay, authoritarianism comes also
from within the opposition, theinability of the opposition to
(45:50):
actually do politics, openlyDisabled, set from actually
practicing democracy internally,and this is something that we
need to solve, no matter whetherwe change, there is a regime
change or not.
We need to resolve the problemof representation within the
opposition because, if not,there is no Movement governance
(46:14):
and there's not gonna be a newMovement strategy to you know,
to actually achieve or orreignite the fight for democracy
.
Marie Berry (46:25):
When you say within the opposition, do you mean
within the kind of the protestmovement or do you mean within
the guaido as supporters and andand kind of like parallel
Administration that has emerged.
Isa (46:36):
Yeah, there's, I mean within All the political parties
, whether they are with withguaido or not, are not.
I would not say that they areDemocratically, you know they
are.
They have big democraticpractices.
I, this is, yeah, I, I thinkthat's.
I mean and and the.
(46:58):
The challenge is that how do youpractice democracy in In an
authoritarian environment?
How do you practice in generaldemocracy in an authoritarian
environment?
How do you do a primary and andyou know, we know, democracy is
not only about elections, aboutyou know, I want a primary but
even, how do you enable you knowdeliberative spaces in In an
(47:23):
environment where, if they seethat you're doing those kinds of
meetings, they are going totarget you?
So this is the challenge is toto sort of you.
You need to practice sort ofthe electoral politics that they
are allowing you so that youare also allowed to do some kind
(47:45):
of dissident Politics actuallydissident politics, because
electoral politics right nowdoesn't have a dissident nature
but you need to be able to dothe dissidents too.
So that is the huge challengewe have right now and in order
to do that, the opposition needsto reorganize itself and if the
(48:06):
opposition is comprised ofpolitical parties and is
comprised also of big civilsociety organizations, the human
rights movement, you knowformer Shavistas, you know
there's.
It's very, very diverse.
It's huge.
It's huge.
It's, you know, about 80% ofthe country.
(48:26):
I would say, but, and also inthe I mean this, the again with
the authoritarianism in 2020,but she led.
Michelle Vachelette, the UNHuman Rights Commissioner, said
in her 2020 report, said thatthere were 2000 extrajudicial
killings in Venezuela only in2020.
(48:47):
2000 extrajudicial killings.
This means, like a police,police commandos Going into
popular areas and targetingpeople in order to do some kind
of social clings Because theythink this are delinquents,
which is obviously I don't careif they're delinquents, you
cannot do that.
And also in 2019, this startedbecause people from those areas
(49:13):
were protesting too.
So, like snitchers and you knowkind of, they got informants
that told when and who wasprotesting and then they killed
them.
So the cost of protesting inVenezuela and protesting in a
popular area is Very, very high.
(49:35):
Like you, you get killed.
And also there's like socialcontrol through food, etc.
So that's a big problem.
The I say, I'd say that's a hugechallenge, that that this only
solved in two ways.
First, like through an internalDemocratic process in the
(49:56):
opposition that involves, Idon't think, only primaries,
although some people talk aboutprimaries, but about, like,
deliberation and and communitybuilding and deliberation within
the opposition.
And Second, solidarity likesolidarity networks, so that
people are no longer sodependent on government, on
(50:19):
government food and ongovernment aid that that they
give an exchange for political,for political control.
The other, the other problem,the other Horrible thing we're
facing is economic inequality.
Like there has been adollarization, the fact of
dollarization, and aneconomically realization that
(50:40):
that has made things a littlebit better for for a small part
of the population and but thethe complex humanitarian
emergency continues, and so sothe challenges to, To keep sort
of you cannot blame people fortaking advantage and and and
(51:01):
like Applauding in a way thatthings are a little bit better,
but you need to also denouncethat this is not the kind of
development that we want.
We don't want a developmentthat is, you know, an, an
economically realization that isvery akin to that of Russia in
the 90s.
Marie Berry (51:20):
You know that is very much mafia controls and and
Just very, very Uniquely thinkso few people understand this
the actual scale of, of thehuman suffering in Venezuela
today.
I mean, we know that since2014,.
You know, after, after Madurocame to power, six million
(51:42):
Venezuelans have left thecountry.
That's, that's 20 percent ofthe country's population.
This isn't a countryexperiencing armed conflict like
we're seeing right now inUkraine, or in Syria or or in
Yemen, right, it's a countrythat you know, ostensibly is
actually Not experiencing armedconflict, but rather a massive,
catastrophic economic crisiswhere you have in 8000 percent
(52:05):
increase in the number ofVenezuelans seeking refugee
status worldwide just in thelast eight years.
I mean, I think that's thescale of that is, is, is, is, is
really humbling.
So I think you know, you make,you make the right point that
that's that, that that is justsuch a huge kind of Massive
threat facing so many people inVenezuela today.
Isa (52:25):
And people keep leaving because they're complex
humanitarian emergency.
Still, it's still happening.
So they're still going by footto Colombia, to Chile, to Peru.
You know, and and even you knowyou.
You have seen their stories ofVenezuelans crossing To Mexico
(52:45):
by a foot, by it, in you know,and passing the Rio Grande.
So if, if the situation wasbetter, this would not be
happening right.
Marie Berry (52:56):
Are there any other threats that you see facing
kind of Venezuela today?
Isa (53:00):
Yeah, the, the, the damage to the Amazon rainforest.
They, they, they built or theycreated a zone called the
Orinoco mining arc.
So there's illegal mining goingon, control, like enabled by
the Venezuelan government andand controlled through through
(53:20):
mafia syndicates that are doingillegal mining, gold mining,
mostly in the in the Orinocobasin, and this is, this is
doing a big.
The government needs it becauseit's it's where they're getting
their money, like allproduction in Venezuela has is
falling down or has been fallingdown the past few years.
(53:43):
And this is and this aren'tlike para fiscal, this is a para
fiscal activity that thegovernment is not in the books
of the government.
They just get that money andit's on the black, you know, and
that's how they, theydistributed to that to get to,
to actually to maintain power.
Marie Berry (54:03):
Yeah, in in this context where, where you know
this, this profoundly brave andenergetic opposition emerged in
2017 and in which there was somuch Momentum and and at
different points in time, in2017, 2019.
We saw just the the massive,you know, engagement of so many
Venezuelans in in movements todemand Democracy and better,
(54:28):
better futures.
I'm wondering how you and otheractivists have kept going right
in the space it, in the face ofthese threats and these kind of
very, very, both real, materialthreats to people's daily lives
and ability to buy food orability to, you know, pay rent,
but also the kind of existentialthreat of of a regime that
(54:48):
impures it appears deeplyentrenched and allied with other
authoritarian regimes aroundthe world, what, what has kept
you kind of able to keep going,you and other activists?
Isa (54:59):
Mm-hmm.
Well, I think the first thingis actually becoming an activist
.
I was not an activist before2017 and as an activist, I felt
more Relevant in my life here.
I felt more protected becauseyou know you are.
You can't be a target, but thecost of them doing something to
(55:20):
you are high if you have aCommunity, that that kind of
tests your work and aninternational community to an
international network.
So building community isindispensable.
If you don't build community,if you're just on your computer,
you know, recording humanrights violations, well, first,
(55:41):
you're not gonna, probably notgonna.
Nothing's gonna happen to youbecause you're doing nothing
public.
But but if you need to buildcommunity, second, I think in
2017 and in 2019, we didn'tachieve the, the objective of
regime change, and this has.
(56:02):
What a lot of people have doneis that, while we cannot, or
there isn't the moment right nowto actually go, you know, to
form a protest movement again,there's probably something that
might happen, hopefully, or thatthere's gonna be a negotiation
that A movement needs to supportin the streets.
(56:23):
That, my the scenario that Iwant is that there is an
integral negotiation, that youknow the whole, that you know
the movement goes to the streetand says we need this and we
pressure the regime to actuallyagree to that.
But a lot of activists havebeen fighting for LGBT causes,
(56:48):
environmental causes Yesterdaywas a march for International
Women's Day.
So I think the movement hasevolved a little bit, in the
sense that we're no longer onlyan opposition movement, we have
started to embrace progressivecauses, and this we had sold
also to a generational changethe you know, we are in our 30s
(57:12):
now.
I mean the people that protest,I guess the, I guess the
Venezuelan movement started withpeople that are now in their
60s, in their 70s, and they are.
They're doing politics,probably as usual, but the, the
people that are in the streetright now and have all have
(57:33):
values that are not only aboutregime change.
They're also about, you know,what is the Venezuela that we
want?
And we are.
We have realized that we needto start, that we need to start
fighting and implementing thosevisions before the, before the,
(57:53):
the, before the democratictransition takes place.
So that's been happening andthat makes me very optimistic
and I think that makes activistsalso resilience.
It builds resilience in thecommunities because it keeps
people in the street maybe asmall amount of people, and they
are saying that this is.
But but the core perhaps issort of mobilized by these
(58:17):
values.
Marie Berry (58:19):
What.
So what are those values?
I mean you, you, you mentionedhuman rights and LGBTQI rights
and and and environmental rightsand things like that.
But if you had to think aboutwhat it would look like if you
were to succeed in your work,like if you were to imagine that
you succeeded in this, in thisfight, what, what is the?
What does the world look likefor you?
And what, what, what valuesground you know that, that
(58:42):
future or that vision of thefuture?
Isa (58:45):
I would like.
I would like a Venezuela wherewhere democracy is really not
only about elections but abouthuman rights and about the
liberation and the ability to totalk to each other, that's, and
where civil society is relevantand important and social
(59:07):
movements are dynamic and civilsociety is dynamic.
Venezuelan democracy from the48, from 58 until 98 was good
enough, but completely electoralit like it was very much, you
know, by the, by the standardsof what democracy was, I guess
in in, in the, when it startedin the 50s.
(59:29):
But we didn't renew Venezuelandemocracy and this is the big
fight.
The big fight of the 90s wasthat and we're still fighting
that.
So that's that's.
That's the country where I wantto do politics.
It's a country where wherepolitics is not only for
political parties but for people, for, you know, for normal
(59:54):
people in the street.
That's that's the Venezuelathat I want and I'm being I mean
being myself, being bisexual,like I want a country where I
can get married, where you knowwhere I'm if I'm walking with my
girlfriend holding hands, noone is going to be, like you
know, saying something rude orwhere that is accepted, you know
(01:00:18):
.
And I want a Venezuela where oilwell, probably oil is no longer
going to be our the main thing,but where, where tourism and
sustainable tourism is, like the, the source of our growth and
the center of the of the serviceindustry.
We have so much to show, wehave so much to.
(01:00:39):
You know, it's an.
It's an amazing country interms of, and that's a way I
think to, to, to become anenvironmentalist yourself.
I think like connecting thetourism industry to caring for
the environment and the and theclimate that applied for,
(01:00:59):
against climate change, and Ithink that's that's a good
connection that we can make.
Marie Berry (01:01:06):
I think that's that's a very hopeful vision.
Would you, can you share somesuggestions, Issa, of any ways
that people listening to thispodcast can learn more or get
involved or support the workthat you're doing?
Some concrete suggestions yes.
Isa (01:01:20):
Yeah, there's a very, a few very trustful organizations to
donate.
One of them is Action forSolidarity.
They they work in HIV issueshere in Venezuela and they
distribute medicines in general,not only for HIV but but in
general.
They're probably the bestestablished humanitarian
(01:01:44):
organization here in Venezuela.
So ActionForSolidarityorg, thenJaquera, is a platform to
donate to specific individualsand social initiatives, and it's
an innovative way to channelhumanitarian aid directly to
individuals, so not to anorganization, but so they they.
They connect with communities,they make them a profile of like
(01:02:07):
it's like, it's like a GoFundMe, but they have their own
GoFundMe for Venezuelans thatthat are, that they vet, et
cetera.
And the third thing I would sayis to get informed.
Many English sources are verymuch polarized between the left
and the right, being either Iapologize apologetic of Maduro's
(01:02:28):
human rights violations orcompletely aligned with the
traditional US policy.
And so I would get onheartsonvenezuelacom.
It's a solidarity campaign andalso an information source, and
there you can find articles inEnglish that inform about
Venezuela from a human rightsand democracy perspective, and
(01:02:49):
they have a lot of things aboutthe indigenous movements,
environmental movement inVenezuela, feminist movement, et
cetera.
So heartsonvenezuelacom,wonderful.
Marie Berry (01:03:03):
ESA.
It's just such a joy to have achance to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
And I wish you nothing but butluck, as you have returned to
Caracas after several years away, and I look forward to hearing
more about your work in thecoming years, months and years.
Thank, you.
Isa (01:03:18):
Thank you, marie, and thank you for the work you do and the
community that you keep alive.
Music playing.
Welcome to what the World WillBecome a podcast about the
humans who dedicate their livesto building a more free and just
world.
My name is Marie Berry.
(00:24):
I'm a feminist researcher andwriter, and I've spent the
better part of the past 20 yearsresearching and thinking about
how women experience war and itsaftermath.
I've done research in placeslike Rwanda, Bosnia, Kenya,
Nepal and Colombia, and I'veinterviewed hundreds of women
whose lives have been shaped byviolence.
Along the way, I have beenrepeatedly struck by two
(00:46):
simultaneous truths the first isthat violence is devastating,
leaving those who survive itwith trauma and grief that can
last for years and evengenerations.
But the second is that, even inthe most bleak and impossible
of situations, there is often agreat beauty, a way that those
who suffer from violence findlove, joy and resilience that
(01:08):
can creatively forge new pathsforward, paths that offer us
profound hope and possibilityfor building a more just and
free world.
Music playing.
My guest today is Issa BellaPiccone, a Venezuelan activist
and political scientist based inCaracas, Venezuela, Issa was a
(01:29):
central participant in the 2017and 2019 civil resistance
campaigns against thedictatorship of Nicolás Maduro.
During this period, sheco-founded Labo Ciudadano, a
laboratory for social innovationthat co-designs experiences of
nonviolent collective action.
She also claims to connect andagitate diverse groups of people
(01:52):
in order to occupy civic spacein alternative ways, Sometimes
through art and singing,sometimes through cultural
actions or workshops, or throughconversations around human
rights and non-hegemonicpolitics.
I've been lucky to know Issasince 2018, when she attended
the Second Iglis SummerInstitute.
Over the years, we've been ableto collaborate on many
(02:14):
different ways, including toconvene activists from different
movements across Latin Americaand the world, and across all of
this, I've realized that one ofIssa's superpowers is that she
is a brilliant nerd.
She loves to read, study andask questions about why things
worked or didn't, whatalternative strategies might be
possible and how, ultimately, wecan work in different
(02:35):
modalities to ensure that hercountry, Venezuela, becomes a
place that all can thrive inagain.
Well, Issa, why don't you startus off by just introducing
yourself?
Isa (02:50):
Yeah, I'm a Venezuelan activist and researcher, now
based in Caracas, but I havelived in and started in Italy,
in the United States, and morerecently I did a Masters in
Political Communication inLondon.
I guess a few years ago I usedto be more of an activist and
now I'm a little bit more of aresearcher, my research being
(03:12):
very informed by my experiencein activism and civil society
organization and in politicaland electoral campaigns here in
Venezuela, and I'm very muchpassionate about the
intersection betweeninstitutional and social
movement politics, and I'vealways been involved in global
(03:32):
and multicultural systems andcommunities.
So I'm very much about activism, multicultural and depolarizing
forms of activism.
Marie Berry (03:44):
I love that and I know that you've been doing this
work for a while now and I'mcurious if you could tell us a
little bit about what drew youin and what kind of convinced
you that this work both the workthat you've done as an activist
, but also the work that you'renow doing really as an applied
researcher what catalyzed thatcommitment and those interests
(04:07):
for you?
Isa (04:08):
Well, first I have to mention my grandma.
My grandma taught me how toread the newspaper, and she's
one of those people that she wasa feminist but didn't say that
she was a feminist.
And she was very sociallyconscious but didn't say much.
It just wasn't the way that shetreated people that were more
(04:32):
fortunate than she was.
So I grew up with that exampleand then adolescence came, and
with adolescence was when Chavezrose to power, when we saw
Chavismo as a social movementand as a political force, sort
of coming to the country, andhow that shifted, how politics
(04:54):
was practiced in Venezuela,first with political
polarization and then democraticbacksliding.
But I was away for most of thetime of the Chavez period
because I was starting abroad.
And then it came back and Istarted working in the electoral
campaigns and I worked in themunicipal government.
So I was an activist.
(05:16):
I was more of a consultant, aperson that wanted to be
involved in politics, and thenpeople very close to me started
getting arrested for doingpolitics and it became very
personal, like this thing aboutpolitics becoming personal isn't
something that necessarilyhappens naturally.
(05:37):
It happens when it affects yourlife and even though I was
interested in politics, it wasmore of an intellectual exercise
sometimes than I have to dosomething now.
So that was in 2016, and in 2017, the protest came Like there
(05:58):
was a huge movement, veryspontaneous, that started
happening in a position to whatwas becoming an autocracy
because yeah, it was, esmerudoofficially became an autocracy
in 2016, and I was starting torealize that elections alone
(06:20):
were not going to get us out ofthe mess we were in.
Elections and institutionalpolitics alone were not going to
rebuild.
We're not going to give upproposal as strong as what
Chavez proposed in his time in1998.
And I started, and then, whenthe protest came, I completely
(06:42):
like immersed myself in it andwe found it something like
something called the CivicLaboratories, and the Civic
Laboratory during the protestwas about bringing people
together to learn aboutnonviolence, to innovate, to do
tactical innovation, because werealized that people were
(07:03):
protesting all the time in thesame way, sort of being more
objects than subjects, you know,being objects, that sort of
clash with the police, ratherthan people that were saying,
okay, I am for this, I wanthuman rights, I want democracy
and I am practicing those rightsin this way.
So we found that that, and thenmy father got arrested, and
(07:26):
because my father got arrested.
I got involved with the humanrights movement because they
were the ones sort of like youknow, like me denouncing my
dad's arrest was much morelegitimate to denounce it on the
human rights under the umbrellaof the human rights movement
(07:47):
than under the umbrella of thepolitical organizations that
were seeking to legitimatelytopple the regime.
I was way more, in a way, moresecure in my plight if I did it
under a human rights discourse.
So that year of 2017, I startedactually understanding what
(08:09):
nonviolence was and what humanrights were, are, and this is
what changed my life.
Marie Berry (08:17):
This is like in 2016, when Venezuela became
officially an authoritarianregime, I was looking for a
solution that was beyondinstitutional politics, and in
2017, I found it, which washuman rights and nonviolence,
and I found sort of my people todo it with yeah, and you've
(08:43):
created, you've painted such animportant distinction between
what's possible within theconfines of the current
political environment andpolitical institutions, through
elections and so forth, and then, in those moments when it's
simply not possible to achievethe change that is so urgent and
so essential for people's livesthrough those processes, it
(09:05):
requires imagination and itrequires these more alternative
and creative strategies forthinking about social
transformation and human rights,as you said.
Can you tell us just a littlebit about?
You mentioned that peoplearound you started getting
arrested, right.
What was it like?
Who were these people?
What were they doing?
What was it like to live in anenvironment especially after
(09:30):
Maduro came to power and thissome of the allure of the
Shavista and rain became thisdeeply authoritarian structure
of governance?
What was it like to live inCaracas as you were living?
whenever you were there duringthat time.
Isa (09:50):
So in 2016, the oil prices went down like in late 2014,
2015.
So you would start seeing likebig lines for food and inflation
started becoming hyperinflation.
So you could see a big socialdeterioration in the country and
(10:13):
the opposition started doing aninitiative called the Recall
Referendum, which is do a bigelection to decide whether we
want the president to continueor not.
And my boss I worked in themunicipal government and my boss
he belonged to a politicalparty.
I was not in a political partybut he did.
(10:33):
And one of those weekends theywere doing a big signature drive
and he went on his car fromCaracas to a very, to a city
that was six hours from Caracas,and he got arrested and he got
released about four months later.
(10:53):
But yeah, that was my, I hadbeen working for him for three
years and it was him and he wasanother friend of mine that also
worked with me in themunicipality and yeah, and then
they eventually they kind ofcancelled like the government
cancelled the drive for thereferendum initiative and I was
(11:16):
like there was no institutionalway of of making a change.
And eventually that's what likethe protest sort of start and
the position of the oppositionthat there was no other way but
to do a protest and to seek achange.
(11:38):
That was not throughnegotiation but through, like
you know, sort of like a rupturein the regime and to the
decision of the opposition.
To seek a rupture in the regimethrough protest came as a
result of 2016 and how theirrepression increases in 2016.
(11:59):
But yeah, it was a combinationof like social of heave all and
social and economic unrest, withjust the institutional windows
and doors completely closing.
Marie Berry (12:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, that makes a tonof sense.
So as you became more and moreinvolved in this opposition
movement, which became reallyrooted in the streets and in
protests, you know what weresome of the successes or some of
the kind of specific moments oryou felt like the movement was
(12:36):
making a difference, wasactually having success.
Isa (12:40):
So when the protest started , the repression is very high
from the beginning and I startedfeeling unsafe and we started
doing this thing that we calllaboratorio, the civic lab.
And then I started like seeingpeople coming to my house and
like brainstorming ideas of whatto do and one day we decided
(13:03):
that we wanted to make a bannermade of currency, of bills,
because we wanted to protest thedevaluation of the currency and
hyperinflation.
So we were like you know, thisprotest is not only about
political rights, it's alsoabout the social unrest that
people are living Like.
(13:24):
So there was a protest goingtowards the center of the city
and we decided to do the proteston the other side of the city
and like sort of in alliancewith the community and with
cultural groups that weresinging and that were making
music, and we made over like aweek.
We collected bills and we madea 20 meter banner and those 20
(13:52):
meters was only $1.
So $1 was a 20 meter banner andwe did that that day and the
repression on the actual Marchwas super.
That was terrible that day, butthe news that day was not only
(14:13):
about the repression but aboutthese crazy people that had done
the banner.
You know, in a popular area,you know, like.
So this was for me like an a hamoment.
It was like wow, if youactually are, if you when you
are actually creative and whenyou work with the community, et
cetera, this is a way ofchanneling.
(14:36):
You know what you want, whichis we don't want hyperinflation,
we want the currency thatdemonstrates what work is.
You know that you can do workand receive something that is
actually of value, that you canbuy something with it, not like
nothing, you know.
So, yeah, we started doing that.
(14:59):
That was a big win, and I thinkthe big win in general of that
experience is the civil societyneeding itself in a context of
so much violence and so muchviolent discourse, because I
mean, at the same time that youare doing nonviolence.
The discourse is you should notexist, and the other one says
(15:22):
you should not exist either, andnonviolence is not, you know,
in a vacuum, it's just it'salways kind of going through.
You know it's like a serpentthat's trying to like sneak
itself in in like some creases,and so that community, made of
(15:47):
activists people that actuallywere not activists, that were
becoming activists is stillthere.
You know many people have leftthe country.
Many people are doing somethingelse, but many are still doing
human rights, are still doingactivism, and they still have
that memory of 2017, when civilsociety rose and said you know,
(16:12):
we can do things our way, we canorganize ourselves autonomously
.
And yeah, so I think it's abefore and after moment in
Venezuela and democratic history2017.
Because it was not only aboutprotesting.
It was about protesting in anorganized and nonviolent way.
Marie Berry (16:32):
And it was about building an alternative right To
the current political realityand to the absolutely kind of
objectively horrible andimpoverished conditions in which
the vast majority ofVenezuelans were living at the
time.
I think that's incrediblypowerful.
(16:52):
I'm wondering if you can tellus about some of the specific
things that you did during thatperiod of time with LABO that
you know were about kind ofthese creative solutions and
ways of building thesealternative infrastructures or
alternatives to the kind ofcurrent political reality and
status quo, especially thinkingabout concrete examples that
(17:14):
might actually inspire activistsor people that are living
through regimes that are notthat dissimilar in many ways
from the Maduro regime in otherparts of the world.
Isa (17:23):
Yeah, I can say that there's something we learned.
I mean, we were LABO was verytactical in 2017.
We were more like, okay, let'sdo this in another way, et
cetera.
But we were not about thestrategy in general or
construction alternative systems.
We were babies.
It is, after we lose, weactually, you know, we didn't
(17:48):
win.
We, 2017 in the end.
The repression, you know,absolutely was terrible and we,
the opposition, didn't playtheir cards right, our cards
right, and we lost theopportunity and LABO.
But LABO became something else.
That was not only about protestbut about, you know, knitting
(18:10):
civil society together, etcetera, and by but, I can say
that in 2017, we did a fewthings.
First, this ritual of meetingwith each other every week,
doing this open meetings, wherepeople would go to the meetings
and learn about nonviolence andthen brainstorm about different
(18:31):
things that we could do, andthat's so.
This ritual of like every weekinviting, doing this open
meetings of people that theycould either be part of an
organization or not that wantedto learn about nonviolence and
what I wanted to innovate.
So we, we sort of learned howto do that and basically, it
(18:57):
meant that it needed some kindof moderation.
It needed, you know, an openspace and a safe space where
people would end up meeting ingroups, in specific groups, to
follow certain idea, because itwas a volunteer basis.
So, okay, I like this idea andeveryone that likes this idea
goes together and they developit and whatever happens with
(19:20):
that idea, great.
So it's just, you like, alloweach initiative to gain, to
develop and each person to sortof to contribute in any way they
want.
So that's something that workedwhile the protest movement was
(19:42):
happening and I would recommend,I think that's a really good
way of coming up with, you know,like tactical innovation when
movements are taking place.
But when the movement hadalready like died a little and
we were sort of all back in ourhomes, a small group of us kept
(20:03):
meeting and we did yoga, like.
We did yoga like twice a weekand it was a very good way of
like regenerating ourselves andof gaining a lot of body
consciousness, I think, andbecause I think non-violence
requires a lot of consciousconscious of the body itself
(20:25):
because you know, if you'resaying that, okay, we should not
be violent, but you have to beconscious of your own body and
there are so many things in aprotest that tell you that you
know you should throw a stone orwhatever.
Not that I reject completelywhen people do that, but when
you are asking people to have acertain kind of discipline, it's
(20:47):
good to do something like yogain a group.
Marie Berry (20:50):
Yeah, tell me a little more about that, Issa.
Like in what ways did you findthat the work that you were
doing required a commitment toembodiment, Like a sense of your
body, right?
I just I know you know on ourconversations a little bit about
like the way in which singingand things like that came out of
protest, and I'm curious if youcould just talk a little more
about how the body mattered, andespecially for those of you in
(21:14):
Labo who were not straight rightor who were engaged, you know,
who were maybe experiencingmultiple and kind of layered
forms of marginalization, notonly from the state but from the
broader society.
Isa (21:26):
Yeah, so after Labo we started meeting and someone came
in the group that was a yogateacher and she started talking
a lot about the importance ofthe body and non-violence and we
, and a lot of us, were verytraumatized from what had
happened, from things that thatyou know, violence that had
(21:49):
occurred during the protest, orjust the trauma of being you
know, of the human rightsviolations that were happening
to others, etc.
So we started doing yoga twicea week and this was important
because first it like as a groupwe kind of bonded more, but
personally, in my process oflike coming out and realizing
(22:13):
that I that I was not straight,or like accepting that I think
doing yoga was really importantI cannot say exactly why, but
like having those two or threehours a week, sort of and and
like in contact with my bodybecause I've been usually more
(22:34):
about my mind that about my bodythat was really important for
me.
And and then then being likethe movement as a body and like
or like us becoming moretogether with the human rights,
with human rights activists,because I feel what I realize is
that in the human rightsmovement there are more queers,
(22:57):
or at least there are morequeers than there are more open
queers or that are like out ofthe closet, as you would say,
here in Venezuela.
I think there are a lot of gaypeople in Venezuela, but maybe
they're not completely out, butmore of them in the human rights
movement are out.
So the human rights movement isusually and I think human
(23:20):
rights movements in general aremore queer and I think the
acceptance that I found thereand the, the diversity that I
found there, as Laval becamemore ingrained with the human
rights community, I was like,well, these are, these are
definitely my people and theseare people that had been seen
(23:41):
the intersection betweenauthoritarianism and feminism
and gay rights, queer rights.
These people have been seenthat since the 90s, since the
80s, because that's what humanrights is about.
So for me personally, like doingyoga at the same time as
(24:03):
getting to know the human rightsmovement and the activists
there was very, completelyeye-opening.
Because before I guess the wayI saw politics and the way I saw
Venezuelan politics was like,okay, we're going through a
democratic transition and weneed to achieve the democratic
transition, and others perhapssaw it as okay, you know, the
(24:23):
way we're doing protests isbeing violent and this is
detrimental, strategicallydetrimental towards the movement
.
So we need to do tacticalinnovation and based which.
Each of us activists saw itwith our own little like in a
little square and then westarted saying, oh no, it's like
this is not only about tacticalinnovation, this is not only a
(24:45):
democratic transition.
This is about human rights,this is about queer rights, this
is about feminism, this isabout the, the environment, etc.
And and yeah, you know the like2018 was about sort of looking
inside Laos and the crowd, butrights is about queer rights is
about feminism.
Marie Berry (25:05):
This is about you were saying that it's not only
about democratic transition,it's not only about tactical
innovation.
Isa (25:12):
Yeah, how do you say?
Well, like when, like the, the,the things that the, that the
horses have blinders.
The blinders, like each of ushave had different blinders.
I was about the democratictransition.
Angel was about the tacticalinnovation.
The other one was about, youknow, the role of the housewives
(25:35):
in the protest movement.
So like finding a way that thehousewives could, but each of us
had their own blinders, our ownlittle focus, and then, in 2018
, we sort of started realizingthe different layers that united
all of that.
What were those?
Marie Berry (25:51):
layers.
Isa (25:52):
Well, those layers were, I mean this thing about, I mean
what?
What human rights gives you,which is different layers, which
is the you know, theenvironment, like queer rights,
human rights, like democracy ingeneral, and how.
It's not only about, you know,we're not only fighting
authoritarianism.
(26:12):
We need, we also need, likesome, some kind of democratic
structures that are internal.
So we started realizing thatthat within our movement there
were also very, you know,authoritarian tendencies,
initiatives, etc.
So how could we, you know,manage that internally and how
could we change that internally?
And, yeah, each of us have hadour own blinders and by like
(26:36):
understanding what the layerswere of what we wanted to do, we
kind of realized that I would abit more like the purpose and
the long-term purpose of whatLaos wanted to do.
And this allowed us to makealliances with like emergent
movements that a lot of themhave come from the left, like
(26:58):
feminist movements that usuallythat used to be shavistas but
sort of are now against Maduroand they're kind of politically
against everything but for humanwomen's rights in general.
And we, we, we, we have formedimportant alliances with them as
(27:19):
well with with other, withenvironmental organizations, etc
.
So this, this allows us to havelike a more transversal view of
what politics is about, and notonly you know.
Marie Berry (27:34):
We want a democratic transition, yes, but
this democracy needs to havethis, I mean what you're
speaking about, is so importantand I think is something that
characterizes so many movementstoday, which is that oftentimes
we come to the movements withour own particular interests or
focuses.
Right, we are interested inwomen's advancement, we're
(27:55):
interested in queer rights,we're interested in the
environment.
We are, we are invested in, youknow, thinking, thinking about
how to advance racial justice.
Right, and we see these causes,at least in the day-to-day
operations of of our movements,sometimes as distinct, but the
reality, of course, is thatthey're deeply linked and and
they share a root in the samestructures that are causing
(28:17):
gender discrimination and racialdiscrimination and queer
discrimination and thedestruction of the environment.
At the same time, right, and Ithink just having this
recognition that that thatmovements are strongest when we
can really see the deepinterdependence and
interconnection of everybody's,of the root, the roots of
(28:40):
everybody's respective struggles, I think what you, what you
just articulated there is is, isincredibly powerful and
important in thinking about how,actually, in the praxis of
organizing, it's so essential toagain remove the blinders, to
think about where the sharedsynergy is, because it's in that
shared work that movements gaintheir power.
Isa (29:01):
And the the challenging thing is that it takes time to
learn that each movement hastheir own learning experience
and each activist has their ownlearning experience and the
process by each by which theystart removing the blinders, and
it requires and and politicssometimes is more you know once
(29:24):
things quickly andunderstandably, obviously,
because we, we need really wereally need these changes
urgently.
So there's a balance betweenyou know the the learning
process of movements and what wecan actually achieve right now.
I guess.
Marie Berry (29:42):
Can you tell us a little bit more about some of
the specific activities orinnovations or work that you did
with Labo, some of the some ofthe innovations or the work that
you're most kind of proud of orthat you found to be effective?
Isa (29:55):
So in after we sort of became more of a community in
2018, when the, when the newmovement or or sort of like a
new wave or a new prototype camein January 2019, we were way
more integrated and way moreclear about our role in that, so
(30:15):
that internal work sort of paysoff.
And we, when when Guaidó callsto the streets to say you know,
we, we are the National Assembly, the 2018 election was a fraud,
we are now the, we are gonnaorganize interim government, and
we were not necessarily verypro Guaidó, but we were pro
(30:37):
democracies for sure.
So we started doing this chancekind of in support of the
movement but critical of thealliance with Trump.
So it said one of them was nosomos Putin, we are not Putin.
No somos Trump, we are notTrump.
We are united against theoppressor.
Somos el pueblo unido contra elopresor.
(31:00):
No somos Putin, no somos Trump.
Somos el pueblo unido contra elopresor.
So those kinds of chans and manyof them were taken more like
from leftist Argentinian, likemore peronist, even songs and
kind of, you know, like thetradition that comes from the
(31:25):
Southern Cone that, throughworkers' movements, has traveled
to Venezuela and those workermovements are now in the
opposition and we learn itthrough them.
So we just changed the lyricsBecause we have in Lavo people
that are in theater and thatknow how to do music I'm not one
of them, for sure, but Ichanted them.
(31:47):
So those kinds of depolarizingchans that we explore because we
need new contents, we needthings that are new, that are
not just about depolarizingMaduro.
So that was important.
And then this dialogueinitially is that we called
(32:08):
víraz despolarizadas depolarizedbeers and through those
initiatives we brought peopletogether from that were
basically former chavistas oreven current chavistas, and we
talked about issues that werecontroversial.
Sort of, for example, dialoguelike so there was a proposal in
(32:33):
2019 to do a negotiation withthe regime to do, like they
called it, the acuerdo eléctrico, the agreement for the
electricity.
So they were going to someone,was going to a big bank, was
going to give a loan to do somechanges in terms of electricity
(32:54):
so that there is moreelectricity, and both parts were
completely against it.
But this is what we call like apartial agreement.
So part of the civil societywas like we should achieve this
partial agreement so that forthe possibility of eventually
like a more integral agreementfor Venezuelan democracy.
(33:16):
And this was not achieved, butwe brought these two parts
together to talk about it.
So, and this, the same was withOver beer.
Yeah, over beer, over beer.
So it was like kind of tryingto have a relaxed atmosphere to
talk about issues.
Marie Berry (33:36):
I love that, and I think it also just reaffirms the
need for human dialogue andconnection in these exceedingly
polarized contexts.
Isa (33:47):
Right, yeah, and you cannot ignore that it is a polarized
context.
But if you don't build certainrelationships and these people
at least don't know each otherface by face and in a little bit
more of a disstanderenvironment, then it's
absolutely impossible.
And this was an internalopposition Like this were all
(34:09):
people that were from theopposition.
It was not like we werebringing Shavista, an opposition
together.
This were people that in theopposition, that some of them
agree with a negotiatedagreement and others are still
saying we need to depose Maduro.
Marie Berry (34:25):
So trying to bridge those create, yeah, again, to
find additional sort of ways ofunderstanding where each
approach or each perspective wascoming from.
Isa (34:36):
I think that's really important, yeah and it's not
about convincing the other.
Like this, dialogue efforts arenot about convincing the other.
It's about knowing where theother one is coming from Right.
Marie Berry (34:48):
Can you expand on that a little bit more?
Why is that important to knowwhere the other one's coming
from?
Isa (34:53):
Okay, so this is like basic theory is like you have
positions and you have needs Ithink it's something what
positions and needs and you needto know the need of the other,
but, like in an institutional,formal dialogue, no one is going
to tell you what their actualneed is Like.
(35:15):
Okay, so I now I want a partialagreement with, I want the
opposition to pursue a partialagreement with the Maduro's
government, and I'm talking tosomeone that does not want a
partial agreement.
They want just a regime change.
So that's that's the positioneach of us say in the media, in
(35:38):
front of the media, on Twitter,but our positions come from a
specific need that maybe youknow, I don't know it comes to
even psychology.
You know, you know your, your,your your origins as an activist
, or like some lesson you'relearning in 2017 that maybe it's
(36:00):
impossible to do a regimechange.
But maybe it is possible to doa regime change, but just
through another strategy, Idon't know.
But the point is that if you,you need to put down to get the
dialogue is certain needs to endup about needs and about
understanding those needs, andthat dialogue is not going to
(36:20):
happen, usually from people thatare in the elite because they
cannot afford to talk abouttheir needs.
It's going to happen in more,maybe in medium, like medium
rank activists and and and thegrassroots, and not everyone can
have that dialogue either.
It's about temperament, it'sabout the moment in your life
(36:41):
you're at, etc.
And you need to understand thatsome people cannot do that.
Not everyone has the same rolein a movement, but the point is
the point is that creating,creating and managing those
spaces where people sort of canknow, get to know each other and
talk a little bit more abouttheir needs than about their
(37:03):
official positions regarding aconflict that I think is a role
in a democracy and in anymovement.
Marie Berry (37:12):
Actually, what that reminded me of is this is this,
this remarkable interview thatthat Krista Tippett did with
Francis Kisling, which, who wasthe director of Catholics for
Choice for many years, about the, about the kind of flawed logic
in some ways, around the needto find common ground when, when
you're building up kind ofstrength in a movement, and it
(37:34):
really it was always a really itwas a powerful shift for me
when I, when I, when Iunderstood what, what Francis
Kisling was saying, which isthat you don't actually need to
find common ground, what youneed to do is have deep
understanding and empathy ofwhere the other side is coming
from, and that that is actuallygoing to strengthen your work,
(37:55):
more than trying to say you know, you and I agree on this one
thing, but we disagree on somany other things, and I think
what you had just articulatedabout that this kind of the
importance of creating space toreally allow for people that are
on the same side, right of thebroader movement, but who may
find a fissures that then canactually sort of unravel their,
(38:18):
their solidarity and momentumbecause they disagree on certain
things, this, this, this theimportance of building space for
them to really talk throughthose fissures in a way that
centers on again their needs, asyou put it, and their
experiences.
To me that bodes, that that hasa powerful sort of it holds
(38:39):
promise, I think, for thinkingabout ways to heal or to at
least kind of strengthen aparticular movement, despite all
of the kind of many differencesthat that movement actors and
activists inevitably have witheach other, which too often can
(38:59):
lead to the kind of dissolutionor kind of fracturing of the
movement itself.
So thanks for sharing that.
Isa (39:06):
Yeah, about understanding a little bit the role of that
each person has in the movement.
Obviously you need tounderstand what the boundaries
are.
You know, like there are somethings that are unacceptable,
but if too many things arecompletely unacceptable, then
then everyone is doing the samething and so you need in a
movement you need some kind ofdivision of labor and that
(39:29):
division of labor can be dividedupon.
You know the interests andneeds and you just serve.
The fact that a person doesn'tdo things exactly the way you
want to do them Doesn't meanthat that thing is not
completely, you know,unnecessary.
And we have talked in Laos a lotabout aesthetics and how, when
(39:50):
we talk about art, when we talkabout art, like okay, marie, you
like blue, maybe I don't likeblue, this is just a visual
question, this is the way it is,it's not that important.
And like talking aboutaesthetics Can actually help
build the path towards like thiskind of dialogue, because Sort
(40:12):
of everyone respects when they,when we disagree about
aesthetics, you know it's likeokay, fine, you know, but
Talking, but when, when, whenyou make it about something
Substantial, then suddenlydisagreement is completely.
You know, you know I'm terrible, you know it's, it's
(40:33):
unacceptable.
Marie Berry (40:34):
Well, I bet that goes both ways too, because it's
not just about the things likeyou and I can disagree about the
merits of the Color blue, butyou and I can also find a deep,
you know, love and appreciationof beauty in something that
perhaps is that you know kind ofevokes awe in both of us, and
and that is a all another kindof grounding place for for
(40:55):
building and cultivatingsolidarity and connection.
Isa (40:58):
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
So this is why you know cultureand aesthetics is actually
really important.
Like people completely dismissit, but but it's actually a way
of, you know, bringing peopletogether.
I want to.
Marie Berry (41:12):
I want to invite you to share a little bit about
something that I know about,which is about the way in which
some of the people you workedwith in in these protests used
kind of traditional Venezuelansongs as part of the actually
part of the, the kind of, again,the protest itself.
Can you just describe a littlebit about how that came about
and how you observed orparticipated or saw that
(41:33):
happening?
Isa (41:35):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so in again.
In 2017, different groupsOrganically organized around
what they wanted to see in theprotest that they were not
necessarily seeing.
So what you saw in the protestwas a mass of people just
clashing against the policeforces and mostly a lot of young
(41:56):
people Doing the heavy work,you know.
But eventually you would seemore Middle-aged elderly people
doing their own thing and if,young people doing our own thing
too.
So one of these groups wasPiloneras and the cantos de
pilón.
The I don't know the Pilonchance are traditional, a
(42:19):
traditional Venezuelan musicthat that woman sing when they
are, when they're doing laundry,usually like together in the in
the I don't know in the townwhere they work, when there is
water.
So it says I don't know, Ireally don't know how to sing.
(42:41):
I'm sorry, but it has a certaincadence that is always the same
.
And so a woman that is very youknow, she's a, she's a singer,
you know, kind of broughttogether other women that wanted
to write lyrics and to sing etc.
And, yeah, they started sort ofdoing their own you know, you
(43:04):
know tactical innovation andthey kind of started coming to
logo because and they, you know,they they kind of merge with
other forms of creative protestat the protests, the protest
amazing yeah so this would givea different image, a different
sound, and then the protestbecomes A sensorial experience
(43:27):
that is not only about the clashand about the violence.
It's also about what you see,about what you listen, about,
what you feel.
There, the protest and politicsis a body experience that you
can make as Pleasurable as youthink is possible.
But guess, what we have beentaught is that politics is
(43:47):
Completely unpleasurable, right?
Marie Berry (43:50):
I think that's such a beautiful way to put it,
though, that that that protestcan be a Sensorial you said, an
embodied experience, right, andthat that also, I think, reminds
us of our deep sort of sharedhumanity, right, that the kind
of the invitation to engage insomething pleasurable, the
invitation to engage insomething even joyful or playful
, can remind us, too, of thestakes of what we're fighting
(44:13):
for.
So I want to ask you to, I wantto shift gears a little bit,
which is you know, you mentioneda few minutes ago that you
didn't win, right, that the, theprotests weren't ultimately
successful in ousting Maduro andI.
You know, of course, there'sbeen, I know, many different
(44:34):
challenges along the way, andI'm curious, and I'm interested
in if you can tell us a bitabout the, the ongoing situation
and the threats that arecurrently sort of facing
Venezuelans today.
Isa (44:46):
Well, first disclaimer, I came back two weeks ago.
I've been doing my master's, soI'm I'm not, I'm not in any
present danger myself.
The I would say there are threebig threats.
One is authoritarianism.
I mean, there was an election,there was a regional election
(45:09):
Last December.
It kind of improved a littlebit in terms of, like, electoral
guarantees, but electoralguarantees are not human rights.
Human rights are still violated.
There are still 364 politicalprisoners, 149 of them are
workers, you know, from nationalenterprises or industries that
(45:29):
have been imprisoned fororganizing to ask for better
working conditions, and thisfrom a government that calls
itself leftist and revolutionary.
So then, and and, and I wouldsay, authoritarianism comes also
from within the opposition, theinability of the opposition to
(45:50):
actually do politics, openlyDisabled, set from actually
practicing democracy internally,and this is something that we
need to solve, no matter whetherwe change, there is a regime
change or not.
We need to resolve the problemof representation within the
opposition because, if not,there is no Movement governance
(46:14):
and there's not gonna be a newMovement strategy to you know,
to actually achieve or orreignite the fight for democracy
.
Marie Berry (46:25):
When you say within the opposition, do you mean
within the kind of the protestmovement or do you mean within
the guaido as supporters and andand kind of like parallel
Administration that has emerged.
Isa (46:36):
Yeah, there's, I mean within All the political parties
, whether they are with withguaido or not, are not.
I would not say that they areDemocratically, you know they
are.
They have big democraticpractices.
I, this is, yeah, I, I thinkthat's.
I mean and and the.
(46:58):
The challenge is that how do youpractice democracy in In an
authoritarian environment?
How do you practice in generaldemocracy in an authoritarian
environment?
How do you do a primary and andyou know, we know, democracy is
not only about elections, aboutyou know, I want a primary but
even, how do you enable you knowdeliberative spaces in In an
(47:23):
environment where, if they seethat you're doing those kinds of
meetings, they are going totarget you?
So this is the challenge is toto sort of you.
You need to practice sort ofthe electoral politics that they
are allowing you so that youare also allowed to do some kind
(47:45):
of dissident Politics actuallydissident politics, because
electoral politics right nowdoesn't have a dissident nature
but you need to be able to dothe dissidents too.
So that is the huge challengewe have right now and in order
to do that, the opposition needsto reorganize itself and if the
(48:06):
opposition is comprised ofpolitical parties and is
comprised also of big civilsociety organizations, the human
rights movement, you knowformer Shavistas, you know
there's.
It's very, very diverse.
It's huge.
It's huge.
It's, you know, about 80% ofthe country.
(48:26):
I would say, but, and also inthe I mean this, the again with
the authoritarianism in 2020,but she led.
Michelle Vachelette, the UNHuman Rights Commissioner, said
in her 2020 report, said thatthere were 2000 extrajudicial
killings in Venezuela only in2020.
(48:47):
2000 extrajudicial killings.
This means, like a police,police commandos Going into
popular areas and targetingpeople in order to do some kind
of social clings Because theythink this are delinquents,
which is obviously I don't careif they're delinquents, you
cannot do that.
And also in 2019, this startedbecause people from those areas
(49:13):
were protesting too.
So, like snitchers and you knowkind of, they got informants
that told when and who wasprotesting and then they killed
them.
So the cost of protesting inVenezuela and protesting in a
popular area is Very, very high.
(49:35):
Like you, you get killed.
And also there's like socialcontrol through food, etc.
So that's a big problem.
The I say, I'd say that's a hugechallenge, that that this only
solved in two ways.
First, like through an internalDemocratic process in the
(49:56):
opposition that involves, Idon't think, only primaries,
although some people talk aboutprimaries, but about, like,
deliberation and and communitybuilding and deliberation within
the opposition.
And Second, solidarity likesolidarity networks, so that
people are no longer sodependent on government, on
(50:19):
government food and ongovernment aid that that they
give an exchange for political,for political control.
The other, the other problem,the other Horrible thing we're
facing is economic inequality.
Like there has been adollarization, the fact of
dollarization, and aneconomically realization that
(50:40):
that has made things a littlebit better for for a small part
of the population and but thethe complex humanitarian
emergency continues, and so sothe challenges to, To keep sort
of you cannot blame people fortaking advantage and and and
(51:01):
like Applauding in a way thatthings are a little bit better,
but you need to also denouncethat this is not the kind of
development that we want.
We don't want a developmentthat is, you know, an, an
economically realization that isvery akin to that of Russia in
the 90s.
Marie Berry (51:20):
You know that is very much mafia controls and and
Just very, very Uniquely thinkso few people understand this
the actual scale of, of thehuman suffering in Venezuela
today.
I mean, we know that since2014,.
You know, after, after Madurocame to power, six million
(51:42):
Venezuelans have left thecountry.
That's, that's 20 percent ofthe country's population.
This isn't a countryexperiencing armed conflict like
we're seeing right now inUkraine, or in Syria or or in
Yemen, right, it's a countrythat you know, ostensibly is
actually Not experiencing armedconflict, but rather a massive,
catastrophic economic crisiswhere you have in 8000 percent
(52:05):
increase in the number ofVenezuelans seeking refugee
status worldwide just in thelast eight years.
I mean, I think that's thescale of that is, is, is, is, is
really humbling.
So I think you know, you make,you make the right point that
that's that, that that is justsuch a huge kind of Massive
threat facing so many people inVenezuela today.
Isa (52:25):
And people keep leaving because they're complex
humanitarian emergency.
Still, it's still happening.
So they're still going by footto Colombia, to Chile, to Peru.
You know, and and even you knowyou.
You have seen their stories ofVenezuelans crossing To Mexico
(52:45):
by a foot, by it, in you know,and passing the Rio Grande.
So if, if the situation wasbetter, this would not be
happening right.
Marie Berry (52:56):
Are there any other threats that you see facing
kind of Venezuela today?
Isa (53:00):
Yeah, the, the, the damage to the Amazon rainforest.
They, they, they built or theycreated a zone called the
Orinoco mining arc.
So there's illegal mining goingon, control, like enabled by
the Venezuelan government andand controlled through through
(53:20):
mafia syndicates that are doingillegal mining, gold mining,
mostly in the in the Orinocobasin, and this is, this is
doing a big.
The government needs it becauseit's it's where they're getting
their money, like allproduction in Venezuela has is
falling down or has been fallingdown the past few years.
(53:43):
And this is and this aren'tlike para fiscal, this is a para
fiscal activity that thegovernment is not in the books
of the government.
They just get that money andit's on the black, you know, and
that's how they, theydistributed to that to get to,
to actually to maintain power.
Marie Berry (54:03):
Yeah, in in this context where, where you know
this, this profoundly brave andenergetic opposition emerged in
2017 and in which there was somuch Momentum and and at
different points in time, in2017, 2019.
We saw just the the massive,you know, engagement of so many
Venezuelans in in movements todemand Democracy and better,
(54:28):
better futures.
I'm wondering how you and otheractivists have kept going right
in the space it, in the face ofthese threats and these kind of
very, very, both real, materialthreats to people's daily lives
and ability to buy food orability to, you know, pay rent,
but also the kind of existentialthreat of of a regime that
(54:48):
impures it appears deeplyentrenched and allied with other
authoritarian regimes aroundthe world, what, what has kept
you kind of able to keep going,you and other activists?
Isa (54:59):
Mm-hmm.
Well, I think the first thingis actually becoming an activist
.
I was not an activist before2017 and as an activist, I felt
more Relevant in my life here.
I felt more protected becauseyou know you are.
You can't be a target, but thecost of them doing something to
(55:20):
you are high if you have aCommunity, that that kind of
tests your work and aninternational community to an
international network.
So building community isindispensable.
If you don't build community,if you're just on your computer,
you know, recording humanrights violations, well, first,
(55:41):
you're not gonna, probably notgonna.
Nothing's gonna happen to youbecause you're doing nothing
public.
But but if you need to buildcommunity, second, I think in
2017 and in 2019, we didn'tachieve the, the objective of
regime change, and this has.
(56:02):
What a lot of people have doneis that, while we cannot, or
there isn't the moment right nowto actually go, you know, to
form a protest movement again,there's probably something that
might happen, hopefully, or thatthere's gonna be a negotiation
that A movement needs to supportin the streets.
(56:23):
That, my the scenario that Iwant is that there is an
integral negotiation, that youknow the whole, that you know
the movement goes to the streetand says we need this and we
pressure the regime to actuallyagree to that.
But a lot of activists havebeen fighting for LGBT causes,
(56:48):
environmental causes Yesterdaywas a march for International
Women's Day.
So I think the movement hasevolved a little bit, in the
sense that we're no longer onlyan opposition movement, we have
started to embrace progressivecauses, and this we had sold
also to a generational changethe you know, we are in our 30s
(57:12):
now.
I mean the people that protest,I guess the, I guess the
Venezuelan movement started withpeople that are now in their
60s, in their 70s, and they are.
They're doing politics,probably as usual, but the, the
people that are in the streetright now and have all have
(57:33):
values that are not only aboutregime change.
They're also about, you know,what is the Venezuela that we
want?
And we are.
We have realized that we needto start, that we need to start
fighting and implementing thosevisions before the, before the,
(57:53):
the, before the democratictransition takes place.
So that's been happening andthat makes me very optimistic
and I think that makes activistsalso resilience.
It builds resilience in thecommunities because it keeps
people in the street maybe asmall amount of people, and they
are saying that this is.
But but the core perhaps issort of mobilized by these
(58:17):
values.
Marie Berry (58:19):
What.
So what are those values?
I mean you, you, you mentionedhuman rights and LGBTQI rights
and and and environmental rightsand things like that.
But if you had to think aboutwhat it would look like if you
were to succeed in your work,like if you were to imagine that
you succeeded in this, in thisfight, what, what is the?
What does the world look likefor you?
And what, what, what valuesground you know that, that
(58:42):
future or that vision of thefuture?
Isa (58:45):
I would like.
I would like a Venezuela wherewhere democracy is really not
only about elections but abouthuman rights and about the
liberation and the ability to totalk to each other, that's, and
where civil society is relevantand important and social
(59:07):
movements are dynamic and civilsociety is dynamic.
Venezuelan democracy from the48, from 58 until 98 was good
enough, but completely electoralit like it was very much, you
know, by the, by the standardsof what democracy was, I guess
in in, in the, when it startedin the 50s.
(59:29):
But we didn't renew Venezuelandemocracy and this is the big
fight.
The big fight of the 90s wasthat and we're still fighting
that.
So that's that's.
That's the country where I wantto do politics.
It's a country where wherepolitics is not only for
political parties but for people, for, you know, for normal
(59:54):
people in the street.
That's that's the Venezuelathat I want and I'm being I mean
being myself, being bisexual,like I want a country where I
can get married, where you knowwhere I'm if I'm walking with my
girlfriend holding hands, noone is going to be, like you
know, saying something rude orwhere that is accepted, you know
(01:00:18):
.
And I want a Venezuela where oilwell, probably oil is no longer
going to be our the main thing,but where, where tourism and
sustainable tourism is, like the, the source of our growth and
the center of the of the serviceindustry.
We have so much to show, wehave so much to.
(01:00:39):
You know, it's an.
It's an amazing country interms of, and that's a way I
think to, to, to become anenvironmentalist yourself.
I think like connecting thetourism industry to caring for
the environment and the and theclimate that applied for,
(01:00:59):
against climate change, and Ithink that's that's a good
connection that we can make.
Marie Berry (01:01:06):
I think that's that's a very hopeful vision.
Would you, can you share somesuggestions, Issa, of any ways
that people listening to thispodcast can learn more or get
involved or support the workthat you're doing?
Some concrete suggestions yes.
Isa (01:01:20):
Yeah, there's a very, a few very trustful organizations to
donate.
One of them is Action forSolidarity.
They they work in HIV issueshere in Venezuela and they
distribute medicines in general,not only for HIV but but in
general.
They're probably the bestestablished humanitarian
(01:01:44):
organization here in Venezuela.
So ActionForSolidarityorg, thenJaquera, is a platform to
donate to specific individualsand social initiatives, and it's
an innovative way to channelhumanitarian aid directly to
individuals, so not to anorganization, but so they they.
They connect with communities,they make them a profile of like
(01:02:07):
it's like, it's like a GoFundMe, but they have their own
GoFundMe for Venezuelans thatthat are, that they vet, et
cetera.
And the third thing I would sayis to get informed.
Many English sources are verymuch polarized between the left
and the right, being either Iapologize apologetic of Maduro's
(01:02:28):
human rights violations orcompletely aligned with the
traditional US policy.
And so I would get onheartsonvenezuelacom.
It's a solidarity campaign andalso an information source, and
there you can find articles inEnglish that inform about
Venezuela from a human rightsand democracy perspective, and
(01:02:49):
they have a lot of things aboutthe indigenous movements,
environmental movement inVenezuela, feminist movement, et
cetera.
So heartsonvenezuelacom,wonderful.
Marie Berry (01:03:03):
ESA.
It's just such a joy to have achance to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
And I wish you nothing but butluck, as you have returned to
Caracas after several years away, and I look forward to hearing
more about your work in thecoming years, months and years.
Thank, you.
Isa (01:03:18):
Thank you, marie, and thank you for the work you do and the
community that you keep alive.
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