November 11, 2025 • 59 mins
"Send us a message! (questions, feedback, etc.)"
What if sadness isn’t the problem—what if the real drain is the energy we spend trying to avoid it? To celebrate our 50th episode, Greg & Stacey talk with therapist and author ADAM YOUNG (host of The Place We Find Ourselves podcast) for a frank, tender, and deeply practical conversation about story work, lament, and the courage to feel. Adam unpacks why facing your past can enlarge your heart, expand your capacity for joy and grief, and finally quiet the buzzing smallness that comes from numbing out.
Adam shares his own journey into therapy and the frameworks that helped his symptoms make sense. We explore the Psalms as a living handbook for honest prayer, including the lines that complain to God about God. Adam even shares a simple way to write your own psalm. No spiritual shortcuts—just truth told in the presence of love and trust.
We also dive into idolatry as a compassionate diagnosis; how story work reveals the holy desires beneath compulsions & addictions: to be seen, soothes, safe, and secure. When those desires are honored, we gain the expulsive power of a new affection and reconnect to real freedom.
We're so grateful to Adam for making our 50th episode so special. We hope you'll subscribe, share this episode with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show.
#adamyoung #adamyoungcounseling #theplacewefindourselves #makesenseofyourstory #thebigsix #storywork #therapy #healing #addiction #trauma #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation
AdamYoungCounseling.com (many resources available here!)
Awaken website
Roots Retreat Men's Intensive
Roots Retreat Women's Workshop
Awaken Men & Women's support meeting info (including virtual)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam Young (00:00):
I want to invite people to ponder that it might
be less energy depleting to lookat the past than not look at
the past.
So many of us are spending somuch energy and we're exhausted,
and we're exhausted becausewe're running from our story.
Announcer (00:20):
Welcome to What We Really Want.
Conversations about connection.
Settle in and get ready for agreat conversation.
Let's talk about what we reallywant.
Greg Oliver (00:36):
Does it just seem like yesterday that we were at
episode number one?
Stacey Oliver (00:41):
Yes.
Greg Oliver (00:41):
And here we are.
This is episode 50.
Maybe, maybe two days ago.
Stacey Oliver (00:45):
We were very nervous.
Greg Oliver (00:46):
Two days ago.
Fair enough.
Stacey Oliver (00:47):
I don't think you were.
Maybe were you?
I speak for you, but were younervous that that first episode?
Bobby West (00:53):
Absolutely.
Stacey Oliver (00:54):
Yeah, I was too.
Greg Oliver (00:55):
I was just nervous that y'all were gonna say
something stupid.
Stacey Oliver (00:57):
Oh, come on.
Bobby West (00:59):
I was nervous about how I was gonna sound.
Stacey Oliver (01:01):
Yeah.
Bobby West (01:02):
I thought I was gonna sound stupid.
Yes.
Okay.
I didn't think I was gonna sayanything stupid, but I thought I
was gonna say something.
Greg Oliver (01:05):
By show of hands, who listened and thinks that
they sound better on the podcastthan they sound in real life?
Stacey Oliver (01:10):
Only when I have a cold.
Greg Oliver (01:12):
Only when you have Okay, yeah.
Well, I don't know what I soundlike in real life, but worse.
Stacey Oliver (01:16):
I had a cold the first episode we did.
I was getting over a cold, andwhen you were editing it, I
heard myself for the first timeand I was like, oh, I kind of
like the way I sound.
Greg Oliver (01:26):
Well, will you sexy thing.
So we're at number 50, and it'sbeen crazy.
Just, I mean, I know I've beenexcited about it the whole time.
I think we've been excitedabout it the whole time, but
it's fun to hear people in ourcommunity and then people even
outside our community who knowus talking about how they
(01:46):
they've gotten excited about ittoo.
Stacey Oliver (01:48):
I think recently somebody filled out a form and
said they heard about us from apodcast.
What, but I don't know thatthey said our podcast.
That's my story.
They heard it from our podcast.
Greg Oliver (02:00):
We'll take that.
Yeah, we'll take it that way.
I mean, we've had at least twopeople who have come to our
Roots Retreat men's recoveryintensive who first heard about
it on the podcast, which ispretty cool.
Bobby West (02:11):
Uh yeah, I remember meeting a guy at our Roots
Retreat.
I'd never met him before, buthe knew me because of the
podcast and was telling me likehow much it meant to him and how
it I think I I think he evensaid it like changed his life,
or it was a starting point forhim to change his life.
I was like, holy.
Greg Oliver (02:27):
Something that was kind of uh surreal, and I don't
know if they I don't know if theyoungsters would say it's meta
or sim or whatever.
I don't know what any of thosethings mean.
But what kind of voice wasthat?
I could do my Hank Hill fromKing of the Hill.
Sounds good.
No, but but we just when we'rerecording this, the day before
this episode comes out, we havejust finished up a Roots
(02:48):
Retreat, men's intensive, and itwas crazy to me how many times
in our group discussions peoplewould say, Well, this reminded
me of that time on that episodewith so-and-so when you said
blah, blah, blah.
Oh, wow.
Like that is weird.
You know, yeah.
It's a good weird though.
Yeah.
Because what it what we hadsaid we wanted out of the show
was that it was going to helpmore people find out about
(03:09):
Awaken and the work that we do,that it was gonna help more
people get an idea of how topursue healthy connections with
themselves and other people inGod.
And and it just really soundslike that's we're getting what
we wanted.
Stacey Oliver (03:22):
So, Greg Oliver, let me ask you what we ask all
of our podcast guests.
What do you want out of ourconversation today?
Greg Oliver (03:28):
Two things.
One is I'd like for you to talknormally because you're
weirding me out.
No, I think the other thing isI just want us to have an
opportunity just to feel andexpress our gratitude for what
the Lord's doing through thisshow.
And I think what people aregonna hear in just a couple of
minutes is gonna make them verygrateful because we've got one
(03:49):
of the guests I've been the mostexcited to have on since we
started.
He's kind of been on my wantlist since before day one, and
that is Adam Young.
Really, really excited thatAdam agreed to be our guest.
And hun, you and I talked tohim about a month ago.
Yeah.
Like, man, just such a rich,rich conversation.
I can remember when my sisterBeth first told me about the
(04:11):
place we find ourselves podcast.
And I remember listening to thefirst episode and just
thinking, whoa, like this isthis is really good and this is
really important.
And it's a podcast that so manypeople in our community and in
our circles have benefited somuch from.
Bobby, what do you hear peoplesaying about the place we find
ourselves?
Bobby West (04:30):
That it's awesome.
I mean, I was the same, butonce I started listening to it,
I was in a place in my lifewhere I was dealing with a lot
of anger towards God.
And Adam Young he had he hadseveral episodes about that, and
it really helped me workthrough that.
Greg Oliver (04:51):
I love that you said that because one of the
things he very specificallytalks about in the episode, in
the interview, you're about tohear is this idea of what we see
and how we relate to God in thePsalms.
Adam had a time in his lifeafter he'd finished graduate
studies, before he went intobeing a therapist, where he had
time on his hands.
(05:12):
And so he actually went throughthe book of Psalms line by line
and categorized what everysingle line and every single
psalm was primarily talkingabout.
And he found out that 4% of thebook of Psalms is the writer
complaining to God about God.
Wow.
That's that's significantenough to show that that honesty
(05:33):
towards how we're feelingtowards God is something that's
biblical because we find itright there.
Bobby West (05:38):
So really I should be talking to God more like I
talk to my wife and my kids.
Well, you could, I think is thepoint.
Stacey Oliver (05:47):
He knows already.
Greg Oliver (05:48):
Yeah, I got a lot of problems with you.
And you're gonna hear about it.
Holy festivus.
Yeah.
But you know, in allseriousness, one of the things
that Adam says, and you'll hearhim say it, is if we are not, if
4% of how we talk to God is notcomplaint, then we are not
praying psalmically, is the wordthat he uses.
(06:08):
And that gave me something tothink about.
Stacey Oliver (06:10):
He doesn't get in quote unquote get in trouble
for talking to God like that.
Greg Oliver (06:14):
Yeah.
He has written a book calledMake Sense of Your Story.
Adam has a longtime connectionwith Dan Alender and the
Allender Center.
He is deeply trained in storywork and uh has helped many,
many people make sense of theirstories.
And we can't wait for you tohear him talk about the full
range of emotions.
This episode is called SadnessDoes Not Sink Us.
(06:38):
I'm just really, really excitedthat we have had over these 50
episodes such a great experiencewith so many wonderful people
that we deeply admire agreeingto come and share some time with
us in conversation.
At this occasion of our 50thepisode, let me just say thank
you to all of our guests.
Thank you to all of ourlisteners.
Thank you, Bobby, Stacy, forjust being a part of this
(07:00):
incredible thing that God's beendoing.
If you are listening and youhave not already followed or
subscribed to the podcast, we'dreally love for you to do that.
We would love for you to helpus by writing a positive review
and sharing about the show onall of your social media
accounts.
We love it and we want as manypeople to hear it as possible.
Well, all of this is some ofthe reflections that we've had
(07:23):
as we have been doing this workof our own recovery and healing
and becoming who we were made tobe.
And a lot of that work has beenhelped along greatly by people
like Adam Young.
So we can't wait for you tohear our conversation with him.
We hope you'll enjoy this 50thepisode of I was almost gonna
say the place we're gonna be.
I've done that before.
(07:43):
I've done it before.
This 50th episode of What WeReally Want.
It's called Sadness Does NotSink Us.
Our guest is someone that wegreatly admire and are glad as a
friend now.
And his name is Adam Young, andthe episode starts right now.
Adam Young, it is so good tohave you on What We Really Want.
I'm smiling from ear to ear.
Thanks for being our guesttoday.
Adam Young (08:04):
Greg, Stacy, it's good to be with you.
It's good to meet you.
Stacey Oliver (08:07):
You too.
Greg Oliver (08:08):
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
You're joining us from Coloradotoday?
Fort Collins, Colorado.
Nice.
I want to ask you the questionwe always start with, which is,
Adam, what do you really wantout of our conversation?
Adam Young (08:20):
I am open to exploring anything that is that
fits the categories ofvulnerable and meaningful,
substantive.
So I'm not really a superficialsmall talk guy, but I'm deeply
interested in connecting withother people.
And in my experience,vulnerability is is the way that
(08:41):
we connect with one another.
Without vulnerability, it'sdifficult to connect to another
human being.
So vulnerability, meaningfulconnection, that's what I want.
Greg Oliver (08:51):
Amen.
We're here for it.
Thank goodness.
Well, this isn't always thecase, but I would guess that
most, almost all, probably ofour listeners know who you are.
There probably aren't manypeople who listen to what we
really want who haven't alsolistened first to the place we
find ourselves podcast.
I was thinking this morning, mysister Beth was the person who
(09:13):
first told me about the place wefind ourselves.
And it it was back in 2018.
And I think at that point youprobably had about 15, maybe 20
episodes out.
And I remember sitting down,particularly with the first two
episodes, with a with a hugespiral-bound notebook and just I
(09:33):
mean, filling up like four orfive pages, the focus and the
the conciseness and the claritythat that it was bringing.
I I'm remembering episode twoon the big six, it was just huge
and put so many pieces togetherand has for thousands of people
since then.
And I know I'm talking a longtime.
I'm gonna get to you likeyou're talking a second.
(09:54):
But but Adam, honestly, I theBible says in Romans 13 that
Christians ought to give respectto those you owe respect and
honor to those you owe honor.
And I really just wanted totake a minute before we get into
what else we're gonna betalking about today and just
give you some honor, Adam.
The the way that you show andcommunicate compassion to people
(10:14):
who have been harmed, and theway that you name harm, not
glossing over it, calling itwhat it is, sometimes using
terms like wickedness, evil, theway that you've allowed your
story of harm and healing tobecome a place where other
people are invited to do thesame thing.
And we I think we both justwant to say thank you for the
gift that you have given us andso many other people.
(10:36):
And you have our deep respectand honor and gratitude.
unknown (10:39):
Yeah.
Adam Young (10:40):
Uh Greg, thank you.
Stacey, thank you.
It's so important for my heartto hear that and fills me with a
lot of joy and meaning.
Stacey Oliver (10:50):
Yeah.
Adam Young (10:51):
I I I long to bear fruit.
And what I'm hearing you say isthat my words have borne fruit
in your heart.
Stacey Oliver (10:57):
Absolutely.
I'm a missionary kid, so I grewup in West Africa, nine, age
nine to eighteen, and and thenwe were in church ministry and
have our story.
So there's been a lot of harm,and it took me a long time to
even know that that's what itwas, but also to acknowledge it
and and to know that what if Iacknowledge that, it doesn't
(11:19):
mean those people were, youknow, intentionally harming me
or knowingly harming me all thetime.
So it's had a big impact onhealing.
Because if we don't understandwhere we've come from, we stay
stuck.
Adam Young (11:33):
That's the truth.
Greg Oliver (11:34):
So, like we said, Adam, a lot of our listeners,
most probably if not all, knowwho you what you do now.
And anybody who's listened tothe place we find ourselves for
a long time or read make senseof your story already know some
of your personal story about howyou came to be where you are
today because you're very openabout that.
But would you be willing tojust take a few minutes and
(11:56):
share with our listeners so thatthey'll be sure to understand
how you came to be where you aredoing the work you do now and
just why it's so important toyou?
Adam Young (13:35):
Well, I got my master's degree in social work
in 1999.
So a long time ago.
But I did not practice.
I did not go in to practice asa therapist because when I
graduated, I I was clear abouttwo things.
Number one, I had significantsymptoms that I couldn't
(13:57):
understand or figure out how tomake go away.
And number two is I I didn'tknow how to help people.
And so I did other stuff for along time.
And then I began practicingtherapy in 2013, largely because
I was a pastor at the time, andthe most important part of
(14:18):
pastoring for me was engagingone-on-one with people's hearts
stories, what they were goingthrough.
And so I was actually doingtherapeutic work without being a
therapist, just because that'show I engage with people, is
what I care about.
Stacey Oliver (14:34):
Yeah.
Adam Young (14:34):
The reason I love being a therapist now is because
it you know, a lot of peoplesubscribe to like Netflix and
Hulu and all that stuff, andthey watch shows, especially in
the evening, and they're thoseare stories, and oftentimes
they're stories of trauma.
Well, I I just get to be inpeople's real life trauma
(14:58):
narratives.
I mean, there is nothing, Imean, Netflix has nothing on
people's real stories, and Idon't just mean their past, I
mean their present, how they'renavigating the complexities of
the harm that they'veexperienced, the glory that they
bear in their present life, intheir marriages, in with with
regard to their currentvocations.
(15:20):
So to me, you know, there'snothing, there's no profession
that's more exciting andmeaningful than therapy.
Greg Oliver (15:29):
So when you got into therapy professionally in
2013, which was what, 14 yearsafter you got your master's?
Yeah, what about it was kind ofwhat you felt like you were now
prepared for?
What about it in the early dayskind of surprised you?
What was it like starting outwhen you felt like maybe you
(15:51):
were more ready than back in 99?
Adam Young (15:54):
Well, the first thought that comes to mind is I
began to engage my own story.
I met a man named Dan Allender.
I read a book called TheWounded Heart, which is about
sexual abuse in your growing upyears.
I went out to spend a week withDan at a program called
Recovery Week.
And I began to during thattime, I began to engage my
story.
I learned that I actually havea story that my experiences as a
(16:19):
boy growing up in my family oforigin continue to affect me
today.
And so the symptoms that I wasexperiencing in my life,
especially anxiety, relationshipproblems, problems with God,
marriage problems, like all thatstuff started making sense.
And I began to have a frameworkfor engaging it that was
(16:41):
actually helpful.
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (16:43):
Well, I that's really important.
That felt important, but itcould have been easy to just
breeze by.
You began to engage with yourstory, but you had a framework
in which to do it.
Because without the framework,that's that's a terrifying thing
to do.
It can be.
And and and one of the thingsthat I told you ahead of time
(17:03):
that I was hoping to talk aboutis why why it's worth it to do
that.
Yeah.
You know, because there's somany objections.
I mean, you list fiveobjections in, I think it's
what, chapter three of your bookthat people have.
And you didn't specificallyname this, but the thing I I
mentioned in my email to you isI could see it being underneath
(17:25):
all of them, which is just aterror of like, yes, what am I
going to uncover and what's itgoing to do to me?
And wouldn't it be better offif I just didn't know?
Adam Young (17:33):
Yes, absolutely.
That's really well named.
It is scary to look inside ourhearts and feel what our bodies
feel.
That is scary, especially forpeople that have a history of
trauma.
And so it's this sense of if Igo there, I might be prostrate
(17:56):
on the floor, unable tofunction, and I actually need to
be a husband and a father andearn earn income.
And I don't know that I canbear the big sorrows, fears,
shame inside my heart.
I don't know that I can containit, and I don't know that I can
(18:17):
function in the midst of it.
So I think you naming theterror that people sometimes
feel when they think aboutlooking at the past very wise
and very common.
Greg Oliver (18:28):
Well, I don't know if this is connected at all, but
uh I just wanted to share thatsomething that I've noticed
since I got your book and I waslooking through it.
The cool thing about being alongtime subscriber to your
podcast is that there wasn't,and this is meant to be a
compliment, there wasn't a lotin the book that I hadn't heard
you say before.
(18:48):
Yeah.
You know, it's kind of aculmination and taking some of
these things and putting them ina volume.
But you know what I what Inoticed is as I look at the
table of contents and thechapter titles, most of them
start with two words, what if?
Adam Young (19:03):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (19:04):
And to me, and I I'd love to hear you talk about
this.
To me, that is relevant to whatyou've just been saying and
with the terror, because if I'mforced or coerced to do this
kind of work, I'm gonna resistautomatically, right?
Yeah, but what if there thoseare invitational words, and I'm
(19:25):
guessing that that wasintentional.
Adam Young (19:27):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I you know, I I want to invitepeople to ponder that it might
be less energy depleting to lookat the past than not look at
the past.
So Barbara Brown Taylor is atheologian and a writer, and she
(19:48):
has a great sentence in one ofher books where she says that
sadness does not sink a person.
It is the energy you spendtrying to avoid sadness that
sinks a person.
And I have found that to bevery true, not just in my life,
but in the lives of the people Iwork with.
So many of us are spending somuch energy and we're exhausted,
(20:13):
and we're exhausted becausewe're running from our story.
We don't want to look at thepast, but the past is in our
bodies, yeah, it's in our cellsand our tissues, it's there.
And if you don't look at it, itit's going to come out
sideways.
Greg Oliver (20:32):
Yes.
And also, I can push the balldown the field for a while
before that happens.
And I can keep avoiding becauseif I'm engaging with the parts
of my story that involved pain,the very engagement is going to
involve more pain.
Adam Young (20:50):
That's right.
Greg Oliver (20:50):
And who wants that?
Adam Young (20:51):
That's right, Greg.
And who wants that?
Stacey Oliver (20:54):
Well, in your addiction, you didn't, you could
have asked for help, but youdidn't know really where to go
to even think about engagingyour story.
Greg Oliver (21:02):
I didn't even get that far.
I didn't get that far.
Because when I was in churchministry and struggling with a
sexual addiction, to get helpmeant that the catastrophic
consequence that I feared wasgoing to happen.
And that blocked me from beingwilling or able to even think
about asking for help.
Stacey Oliver (21:18):
And I didn't have that, but like for me, it was
like the insecurity and the myvalue is in, I thought, you
know, being a worship pastor'swife and being very helpful and
kind and you know, ask Stacy,she'll do it.
She'll she'll she'll be on thetime.
She's dependable.
And I'm like, oh my gosh.
But I was so lonely and I wasnot really fulfilled.
(21:41):
And I didn't know really whatto do either, other than these
are idols and you need to turnfrom them.
But like, what does that evenmean?
You know, and so when thiseverything blew up with him,
well, I had that to deal with,but then that's when I really
got to be able, you know, tolook at my own past and and then
it's been it's been quite thejourney, I'll say that.
(22:03):
But it's good.
With all of this pain andtrauma, like I am more settled
and at peace, and our marriageis in a place that oh gosh, I
would never go back.
Um it's been, yeah, yeah.
Greg Oliver (22:21):
And you cuss a lot too.
Stacey Oliver (22:22):
And I cuss a lot now.
I had two in my arsenal before,and now I feel like I know all
of them.
Greg Oliver (22:31):
Yeah, now you have more, but it's it's endearing.
It's it's sweet.
Stacey Oliver (22:35):
It's precious.
Greg Oliver (22:36):
So, Adam, getting back to what we've been talking
about with the cost and thebenefit of engaging with our
story, because there's both.
There's a lot of benefit thatanybody who has followed you has
heard you talk about, butthere's also great cost.
I mean, one of the things justpersonally I've noticed since
because I was in my late 30swhen I started doing real
(22:57):
authentic, truthful, vulnerablework.
And now after discovering andnaming many ways throughout my
life in which I experiencedharm, I realized like I carry
that with me, that awarenesswith me all the time.
And that's part of the cost.
I feel a little measure ofsadness every single day.
Adam Young (23:20):
Yes.
Yes.
Greg Oliver (23:23):
And that that is something that well, I I was 38
when when things started tochange for me.
I was probably well into my 40sbefore I came to a point where
I could see that carryingsadness every day might not be a
bad thing.
And I've talked with many otherpeople who have noticed the
same thing.
And so I may be asking you torepeat, but I think I'm asking
(23:45):
you to go deeper into somethingthat we've been talking about
the last few minutes is for thatobjection of like, why is it
worth it?
Why is it worth it?
Adam Young (23:55):
Well, for Christian folks, the psalmist puts it like
this the Lord has enlarged mein my distress.
The way Paul will say that isthat we're called to rejoice
with those who rejoice and mournwith those who mourn.
Both texts are getting at thesame idea.
God is very interested inenlarging our hearts so that we
(24:20):
are just as apt to be laughingone minute as we are to be
weeping the next.
That's what it means to grow inthe image and likeness of
Christ.
It means to have a fuller heartwith more capacity for sorrow
and more capacity for joy.
The word that I'm getting at isit means to come alive.
So in you know, in John 10, 10,when Jesus says, I have come
(24:43):
for you to have abundant life,he's talking about vitality, the
the the aliveness of the humanheart.
And when we are in addictions,compulsions, when we're running
from our story, our hearts aresmaller.
Like we are a we are a fractionof the size that we could be.
Stacey Oliver (25:05):
Yep.
I think about the I it was forfreedom that I set you free.
That that like came alive to mein this recovery process
because I was like, it's I'm notjust free.
I'm free to be free and likeexperience it.
And I and I couldn't until somuch was unpacked.
Greg Oliver (25:22):
Yes.
Yeah, I've I noticed somethingwhen you talked about the
smallness a minute ago.
And I'm just thinking back towhen when I would feel like in
the darkest, and thankfully nowI'm having to think back a long
way.
Stacey Oliver (25:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg Oliver (25:36):
Because life has been different.
But just how the way I'vedescribed is when I would be
feeling the most hopeless in myaddiction because I had no one
that I was talking to, and Stacydidn't know any of it.
The the physical sensation thatI felt, I call it scooped out.
I felt small and I felthollowed out and like almost
(25:58):
like my whole being was gonnacave in.
Yep.
And now, just yesterday, therewere some situations going on
that are really difficult.
And I it's not good, it's notfun.
I don't like how it feels, butit feels very, very different
because it doesn't feel likethat smallness or that I'm, you
know, shrinking down or scoopedout.
(26:20):
There really is a differentsense of being able to still be
present, even when there's anunpleasant emotion going on.
Adam Young (26:27):
Yes.
And and what you're puttingwords to, if I'm hearing you
right, is that you have morerelational connection now, and
you are able to reach out whenyou are in need.
And when you were 35, you wereutterly alone with whatever was
going on inside of you.
Greg Oliver (26:48):
Yes, yes.
I'm thinking, hun, about twoyears ago, there was just some
stuff that we were workingthrough.
Nothing was explosive.
I didn't relapse.
There was nothing like quoteunquote bad happening, but just
there are some issues ofstuckness in our marriage.
Yeah.
And and there was a catalyticsituation that kind of brought
it to the surface, and weweren't seeing eye to eye on it.
Stacey Oliver (27:11):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (27:11):
And it was, it it brought in the work that we
subsequently did, it reallyenlightened me to the fact that
I was responding to you veryavoidantly.
And I've never seen myself asavoidant, but kind of like you
talked about how in in your yourbook talking about how with
Caroline you were different thanyou were with other females.
It was kind of like that.
Stacey Oliver (27:31):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (27:31):
And you were kind of insecure.
Very anxious.
Stacey Oliver (27:34):
Yeah, anxious.
Greg Oliver (27:35):
And in the midst of all that, before we went to an
intensive and got some help, Icalled a really good friend who
is also a therapist and just waskind of just bitching about it,
honestly.
You know, and and one of thethings he got to is how old does
that feel?
Adam Young (27:54):
Yes.
Greg Oliver (27:56):
And I had a game changer, instantly started
crying.
unknown (27:59):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (28:00):
Because what I was talking to him about, the
situation, I said it feels sixyears old, and it feels like
when do I get to have myemotions get some attention paid
to them?
Yes.
And it was, it was just it it'sfunny because it's stuff that
you know and you can point outin other people, but the
(28:21):
self-realization took a littlebit longer.
Adam Young (28:24):
Absolutely.
Greg Oliver (28:25):
But yeah, just the gift of being able to stay there
and and and name it and andalso to know that there wasn't
the threat to the relationshipto take some time to do that was
really a gift.
Adam Young (28:36):
Yeah.
And whenever we have stuckplaces, like you re you guys ran
into a stuck place.
I mean, nine times out of ten,it is because younger parts of
our hearts are being activatedor triggered is the famous word
right now.
And we aren't aware of it.
And as soon as your friendhelped you name that a part of
(29:01):
you was feeling like you feltwhen you were six, yeah, you got
really clear about what wasgoing on for you and why you
were why this was tormenting foryou, this stuckness with
Stacey.
That's right.
Greg Oliver (29:14):
Yeah, because I was in that moment, I was kind of
showing up with a six-year-old'scapacity.
Adam Young (29:20):
Of course.
Of course you were.
Stacey Oliver (29:22):
And I was matching it.
unknown (29:23):
Right.
Stacey Oliver (29:24):
Two six-year-olds probably going at it.
Greg Oliver (29:27):
Two six-year-olds in their 50s showing up and
trying to make somethingproductive happen.
Stacey Oliver (29:32):
But what a different, what a different
place we were in with all thework we had done to that point
to even be able to ask for helpand then, you know, do the
intensive that we did.
And it was scary and hard, butgosh, it was so good.
But I don't think I because Iwonder, I know what I was
struggling with was why am Istill so anxious with him?
(29:53):
Like what I've done all thiswork.
I don't understand.
I know he's not going anywhere.
But when he packs a suitcase,I'm still like coming undressed.
And then when we did ourintensive and realized some of
those parts still neededattention, you know, and there
was stuff we didn't know.
We just weren't having wordsfor.
But yeah, it was uh it wasamazing to me that we were in
(30:16):
the good place that we were in.
But it we both said it waslife-changing, like and that was
just two years ago, and it wasfor our marriage, and it we're
just in such a we still gosideways and I still cuss, but
it we can we know what's goingon, you know.
Greg Oliver (30:32):
So I have a question about some of the stuff
we've been talking about thelast several minutes with
engaging with the sadness andrealizing that like the quote
that you that you cited, not thesadness, but the energy we
spend to avoid the sadness thatsinks a person.
I would imagine, and you cantell me if this is accurate or
not, that in your practice andin your experience working with
(30:55):
a lot of different people, thatthere have been some who
identify as Christians andothers who don't.
Have you found that it trendsin either direction that that a
person's faith experience makesit easier or harder to show up
for this kind of work?
Because I think I know what youwould say, but I want to hear
you say it.
Adam Young (31:14):
Well, in my experience, folks that have
broadly speaking, and kind of anevangelical Christian
background have so many barriersto feeling their feelings.
Yes.
Because it has not been called.
Welcomed in their communitiesgrowing up.
(31:35):
Right.
They haven't, it hasn't beenmodeled.
There are no rituals forsorrow.
There's no expressions.
Anger is like this bad thing.
You're not supposed to getangry, especially if you're a
Christian woman.
Like anger is just anathema.
And this stuff is absolutehogwash.
I mean, we are emotionalbeings, and every single
(31:58):
interaction, every singleemotional expression is a
mixture of dignity anddepravity.
And a lot of people don'tunderstand that there's great
dignity in these emotionalreactions that they've been
taught need to be kind of putaway and not at least not
expressed in public.
Greg Oliver (32:18):
Dignity and godliness.
Adam Young (32:20):
And godliness.
Greg Oliver (32:22):
Yeah.
So beauty.
Why would faith leadersdiscourage that?
Adam Young (32:29):
Well, because it makes their jobs really hard.
And frankly, they haven'ttypically done their own
emotional work.
Yeah.
So they're just deeplyuncomfortable with a with a
congregant, a parishioner who'sin front of them and is sobbing
or is raging.
They haven't done their ownwork with their own sorrow and
(32:51):
anger.
And so when they're in thepresence of big sorrow or big
anger, they don't know what todo and they get dysregulated and
they result to measures ofcontrol.
Greg Oliver (33:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause it and it's still kind ofa capacity thing that's showing
up in those moments.
If they haven't engaged withthat and done their own work,
then their capacity to be in thepresence of that intensity is
very, very low.
That's right.
Well, I think about the whatyou called hogwash that to be
spiritual, it has to be tiltedjust to the side of positivity.
(33:25):
You talk about lament on yourpodcast.
You had an episode where youtalked about and then offered a
resource of how to write yourown psalm.
Yeah.
I'd love for you to talk aboutthat for people who may not have
heard about that yet.
Because if we're stuck in thatkind of evangelical space where
(33:47):
we've never heard it encouragedand maybe have heard it actively
discouraged, that we would seein that place of sorrow and
lament and even complaining.
How do the Psalms show us thatthat's such a biblical thing to
do?
Adam Young (34:00):
Oh my gosh.
So when you have when you'reunemployed, like I was in 2013,
and you have a lot of time onyour hands and you're very
interested in the Bible, youmight undertake a project which
is to read the entire book ofPsalms and categorize every not
psalm, every line of the text.
Greg Oliver (34:26):
You heard that somebody did that one time,
right?
Adam Young (34:28):
You will you will find out that the majority of
the lines of the book of Psalmsare about enemies.
They are either verses that arepraising God for harming one's
enemies or asking God to dojustice to one's enemies.
In other words, they arefocused on anger and the sense
(34:52):
of injustice.
And that is a little bitdifferent than what you often
hear, which you'll hear somepeople say most of the psalms
are psalms of lament.
And that's that's it's it's notexactly it's not exactly true.
It's really speech aboutenemies.
Now, lament is an expression ofsorrow or grief, and there's
(35:12):
lots of that in the book ofPsalms.
But what about your anger?
Where do you go with your angerif you are a Christian?
And what the Bible, in myopinion, is exhorting us to is
that you are to go to God withyour anger, which means to speak
it candidly and without editingyour words.
Greg Oliver (35:35):
That feels really important because we started out
talking about how resistantpeople are to engaging with
things that are going to springup sadness.
But I think within the church,I'm gonna make a blanket
statement, but I think it'strue.
We tend to be a lot morecomfortable with sadness than we
are with anger.
So, like maybe we're willing tocrack, you know, to pop the
(35:58):
hood on sadness, but don't lookunderneath that to, you know,
what and maybe it's the otherway around.
Maybe underneath our anger issomething deep like sadness.
But but anger is really hard tosit with.
Sadness is hard to sit withtoo, but maybe a little easier.
Adam Young (36:15):
Well, it depends on your story, but for lots of
Christian folks, they are verydisconnected from their anger.
In other words, it's not thatthey aren't angry, it's that
they've shoved it into a cornerof the basement of their heart
and they don't go there.
And whenever we do that, itleaks out.
(36:36):
It comes out sideways.
So the the biblical invitation,especially in the book of
Psalms, Book of Lamentations,uh, the book of Job, is to take
our anger, including our angerat God, and like speak it,
express it to God.
Greg Oliver (36:54):
I'm getting a picture in my head of almost
like a scale or a range ofthings that are seen as
acceptable, more or lessacceptable within Christianity.
Yeah.
You know, sadness may be themost acceptable of what we've
been talking about.
Anger a little bit less.
Anger itself is probably thebest kind of anger.
(37:17):
Anger at other people, a littleless acceptable.
Anger at God, absolutely not.
Like you don't get to be angrywith God.
Yeah.
And thinking about like I'm I'mthinking of just a hypothetical
someone who's got a child who'sdying of leukemia.
And we'll go sit with thosepeople and we will sit with them
while they're crying.
(37:37):
And we can do that, but whenthey start like lashing out in
anger at God for letting thishappen, like our skin starts to
crawl and we want to get out ofthere.
Adam Young (37:46):
Yeah.
And what's you're you're namingit really well.
The dilemma is that is somassively unbiblical that that I
don't even have any like if youread your old testament, if you
actually read it, if you readthe book of Jeremiah, if you
read the book of Job, you willsee that there are people who
(38:10):
are taking God to the mat in awrestling match of accusation.
Four percent of the verses inthe book of Psalms are
accusations against God.
And the Psalms is a big book.
Yeah, so four percent is not asmall number.
So here's here's here's a greatway to put it.
If when you pray, four out ofone hundred sentences are not
(38:36):
you accusing God of something,you're not praying psalmically.
Greg Oliver (38:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stacey Oliver (38:41):
So if you are, sorry.
No, please.
If you I haven't done this, ifyou asked somebody why would you
be opposed to this or why doyou think this isn't biblical,
when when you're looking rightat all of these verses, like
what would they say?
Adam Young (38:55):
Well, they would say that I mean, I I've heard
everything from you know, that'sthe old testament, not the new,
which fine.
You go look at the newtestament.
There's no one who judges andaccuses people more than the
apostle Paul.
So it's a bankrupt argument.
But what I think, I think formost people, it's not an
intellectual thing, Stacey.
(39:17):
It's they are afraid of theintensity of their feelings, and
they're afraid that no one intheir community would welcome
them if they were to verbalizethat kind of stuff at a
community group meeting.
That's true.
Or if they were to pray it in asmall group, that that people
(39:39):
would be like, you're notsupposed to say that stuff.
In other words, there arerelational consequences.
And that's why most people, ifthey do this at all, they do it
alone.
And that's tragic.
Tragic.
Stacey Oliver (39:51):
Yeah.
I did express some anger atsome things early on in our
process toward some others thatwere in author, you know,
spiritual authority, and it didnot go well.
Adam Young (40:02):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's that is so sadbecause the church, above all,
needs to be a place where we canbe honest and authentic with
the big feelings inside of us.
And the Bible has lots and lotsof texts that do that.
And yet Christians tend to bevery reluctant to do it.
Greg Oliver (40:26):
And I think, too, to back to the resource that you
offered on how to write yourown psalm, some of the things
that you said about that I thinkcan really help people feel
okay and safe to do thecomplaining part.
Because you talk, and I'd loveto hear you for people who maybe
don't know specifically whatI'm talking about, kind of the
(40:46):
order, the trajectory of doingthat work, because it sort of
begins and ends with the partthat more Christians are
comfortable with.
But in the stuff in the middleis the uncomfortable part.
Adam Young (40:58):
Yeah, I mean, what all I'm inviting people to do
when I say write your own psalmis to look at the book of Psalms
and kind of make it your own.
So, for example, if you were tolook at Psalm 13 and make Psalm
13 your own, yes, it starts outwith an acknowledgement that
(41:18):
you're approaching God.
Oh Lord.
Like that's an acknowledgementthat you are approaching your
creator and your God.
And shortly thereafter, itexpresses lament/slash
accusation with the words, howlong, O Lord?
Like, how much longer am Igoing to have to endure my son's
(41:41):
leukemia?
And if he's died, how muchlonger am I going to have to
like feel the agony of someonewho I gave birth to is not on
the planet and I still am?
So it's accusation, it'slament.
How long, Lord?
And then if you keep readingPsalm 13, the the the tone
(42:06):
changes to, but I trust in yourin your in your unfailing love.
Here's the dilemma.
Most of us think that that waswritten in five minutes.
But anyone who's written a songor a poem knows that it it
often is.
Greg Oliver (42:20):
Multiple sittings, yeah.
Adam Young (42:22):
Multiple sittings in years.
So why not linger with the howlong and not have a tidy bow on
the end?
You'll get to the trust in hisunfailing love when God meets
you in your lament or your rage.
But until God meets you there,it's just words that you're
(42:42):
speaking that are divorced fromwhat you're really feeling.
Greg Oliver (42:45):
Adam, do you think that if the trust that the
psalmist talks about that startsin the fifth verse of Psalm 13,
but I trust, if that ispresent, even if it's latent or
feels latent, when he's saying,Will you forget me forever?
How long will you hide yourface from me?
Must I take counsel in my soul?
(43:06):
Must I have sorrow in my heartall the day?
I think that we would maybefalsely assume that you can't
have trust in a God that you'resaying those things to.
But it seems to me that it'sthe exact opposite.
Adam Young (43:19):
It's the exact opposite.
It takes more faith and trustin God to express your candid,
honest, authentic feelings tothat God than it does to
withhold them in the name of Ishouldn't talk this way to the
Holy One.
Greg Oliver (43:34):
Yeah.
Adam Young (43:36):
So Christians need to learn from the Jews how to do
lament and how to do candidprayer.
Could you say more about that?
Well, the Old Testament is theHebrew scriptures, and on the
whole, the Jewish people are farmore comfortable with
(43:56):
expressing doubt, anger,accusation, protestations of
innocence.
They're far more comfortablewith wrestling with the Holy One
than especially evangelicaltypes.
Catholics a little bit more so.
But the evangelical, you know,that's what I grew up in.
So that's the tradition I know.
(44:18):
You just you're supposed torejoice in the Lord always.
Don't let the sun go down onyour anger.
In other words, there are theseverses in the New Testament
that are used to silence our bigfeelings.
Greg Oliver (44:31):
Well, and the Bible does say those things, but
those aren't the only thingsthat the Bible says.
Stacey Oliver (44:37):
But that you can't be doing this other at the
same time.
Greg Oliver (44:40):
Yeah, it's like the complexity is what we struggle
with so much.
Stacey Oliver (44:47):
I know in the early days of our recovery when
I was so angry, I did muchbetter job.
Honestly, I was this is theonly place I could go was
Psalms.
I didn't want to have anythingto do with the rest of the Bible
because I identified here, youknow, and I was like so mad.
Yeah.
But I did, I'm like, I I trustin my head and I know what I was
(45:08):
taught growing up as far as Ihave a foundation.
I know you're there, but I butI don't actually right now.
So I believe help my unbeliefkind of thing.
But yeah, I need I I think Iwould it would be good for me to
get back to that because Idon't do that as much anymore.
Greg Oliver (45:23):
Well, I likewise, I mean, I spent a lot of time in
my early recovery in the 30s, inthe Psalm like 30 through 39,
because those are just some ofthe the ones that were, I guess
the way I would phrase it ismeeting me where I was at that
time.
Not that all scripture isn'tinspired by God, not that all
scripture isn't good for all thethings that Paul said it's good
(45:46):
for, but that right now, thisis the scripture that's gonna
make me feel most connected toGod because it's about hurt and
it's about suffering andconfusion.
I want to ask you about a wordthat you use in the book.
Something that I've enjoyedabout our conversation is that
we're for people who arefollowers of Jesus, who believe
(46:10):
that the Bible is the word ofGod, but have experienced it
taught, maybe not a incorrectbut an incomplete way, or
hearing some things maybedifferently.
One of the things that Inoticed in the book is your use
of the word idolatry.
And early in chapter two, youquote from Isaiah 61, and you
(46:32):
say that idolatry grows in thesoil of your pain is coming out
of that scripture.
You also say we become captiveto those things that promise to
protect our hearts from beingwounded in the same way again.
And you you had just told astory about a man who, as a
young boy, was overweight, wasridiculed, and then he kind of
became addicted to exercise anddeveloped an eating disorder.
(46:55):
And so, you know, we we developthese strategies so that we
never hurt that same way again.
And the word you use todescribe them was idolatry.
And at first blush, I wouldthink that what people have been
told about idolatry in the pastmight tend to invite them to
drift towards shame, but whatyou say about it is much kinder
(47:16):
than that.
And and I'd love to hear youjust talk a little bit about
just what is this type ofidolatry that you're referring
to?
Adam Young (47:24):
Idolatry is simply looking to something other than
God for safety, protection,rescue, salvation, shalom,
goodness.
Greg Oliver (47:36):
Yeah.
Adam Young (47:37):
And anytime as a boy or a girl, your heart is
harmed, and all of usexperienced harm as boys or
girls, you naturally will beginto make kind of agreements and
vows that protect you in thefuture.
(47:57):
So, in the example I gave inthe book of this man who was,
you know, when he was a fifthgrader and they did those PE
tests where you had to do apull-up and he was overweight
and he couldn't do one.
Stacey Oliver (48:08):
Yeah.
Adam Young (48:08):
And he was mocked and he was humiliated.
And something in that fifthgrader's heart said to himself,
never again.
Of course it did.
And he went, of course it did.
And he went home and he becameobsessive about exercise and
anorexic and and deeplycommitted to controlling his
(48:29):
body's weight.
So that is absolutely idolatry.
Here's the dilemma.
Most people hear that word andthey think like they hear it as
an accusation.
What I want people tounderstand is your idolatry
grows in the soil of your pain.
That's what that's what Isaiah61 is saying.
(48:50):
The the suffering servant cameto heal the brokenhearted.
There's your pain, the brokenheart, to release the captives.
There's the idolatry.
We become captive to things.
And whether it's financialsecurity or status in the
community, or you know, aperfectly shaped body, or you
(49:11):
know, you you're the you're theone with all the friends, and
everyone looks to you foradvice, or you're in some
particular inner circle.
Look, whatever you need foryour life to be well, that is
always in story.
There's a reason that youridolatry, Stacey, differs from
(49:35):
mine.
And it's and you willunderstand that reason only by
looking at your story and mystory.
And so all of us need tounderstand our growing up years
to understand why we are captivebound to the things that we
are.
Stacey Oliver (49:53):
That's so good.
Greg Oliver (49:54):
If that idolatry is seeking safety or care or
protection from something otherthan God, like you said, and we
go back to our stories, is therealways or usually some element
of when we go to that story,God, where were you?
Adam Young (50:11):
I don't know about always, but certainly often, I
mean, certainly often.
I mean, this is what's soagonizing for many Christian
folks, is they don't want towrestle with that question.
God, where were you when I wassexually abused?
Stacey Oliver (50:29):
Yeah.
Adam Young (50:29):
How could you let that happen, God?
Yes.
Or if it's not sexual abuse,where were you when my father
was struggling with alcoholismduring that horrible season of
my life from the ages of 10 to15?
Where were you when my motherwas being contemptuously yelled
at by my alcoholic father forfour years and I was powerless
(50:51):
to do anything about it?
Greg Oliver (50:52):
Or when I was one of 12 children and I was
neglected, and so I foundcomfort in pornography or
whatever.
Adam Young (50:58):
Yes, exactly.
We don't want to contend withthe Holy One of Israel, we don't
want to engage with God aboutwhere were you?
Greg Oliver (51:13):
Yes.
Adam Young (51:19):
Like yours did, both of you, when you were 38, 39,
whenever it was, God, where areyou right now?
Yes.
Where are you right now?
Stacey Oliver (51:31):
Because what I was taught not that this would
happen.
Adam Young (51:34):
Yeah.
Stacey Oliver (51:35):
Based on what I I obeyed most of the rules.
I this isn't not what I'msupposed to get.
What in the world?
Adam Young (51:42):
That's right.
Greg Oliver (51:42):
That's right.
I feel like it's important tojust point out that when we say,
of course, you asked thatquestion, or you know, that
makes so much sense that youthought that you had to do it
yourself, or that you didn'tthink or that you thought God
had abandoned you.
To say of course, that's notstipulating that what they feel
(52:08):
is something that you believewas true, or that you even think
that that's what they at theirdeepest place believe is true.
You know, I think that I'vetalked to some Christian leaders
who have been afraid to say nowonder or of course to something
that involved sin ordestructive behavior because of
a fear that it's going to bereceived as license.
(52:28):
But right.
Wouldn't it be different if wejust if we didn't assume that
the people are doing thesedestructive things because they
really want to?
Adam Young (52:36):
Yeah, yeah.
It it's the title of yourpodcast, What We Really Want.
Yeah.
And this is this is not new.
Thomas Chalmers, Puritanwriter, talks about the
expulsive power of a newaffection.
And that's just old Englishlanguage for whenever you are
desiring something, youraffection that is not serving
(52:59):
you, there's always a deeperdesire underneath there that is
actually quite beautiful andlovely.
And so many people don'tunderstand that.
They feel so much shame aboutsome of their desires.
Sexual in other words, I don'tjust mean sexual, I mean desires
across the board.
The desire to, you know, getthe promotion, the desire to be,
(53:24):
a desire to have a biggerhouse, whatever you're whatever
you envy in other people,whatever wherever your desires
are unmet, the the the desire tohave my son healed of his
mental illness, whatever it is.
Greg Oliver (53:36):
Right.
Adam Young (53:37):
And and you're told like you should trust in God.
Stacey Oliver (53:41):
That was right in my mind, like that was right
behind there.
That's what I feel like thatwould have been said.
Adam Young (53:46):
Yeah.
And instead of going into thedesire and finding out what you
really want.
Stacey Oliver (53:55):
Yes.
Adam Young (53:56):
Yes.
And and what's so beautiful forso many of the people I work
with is that when you take theminto their desires, they have
this aha moment of like, oh mygosh, my desires are really
quite holy.
They are being expressed in anunholy way, but boy, oh boy, my
(54:16):
desire for connection,relational intimacy, my desire
for goodness in my marriage, mydesire for to be welcomed and to
belong in my community.
Like these desires are so holy.
And this is part of what itmeans to be created in the image
(54:37):
of God.
Greg Oliver (54:39):
A moment ago, Adam, you said we haven't grown up
hearing people saying it thatway or saying those things.
And as we wrap up, I I want tojust come back to gratitude
because there are a lot morepeople speaking that way now
than there used to be.
There are a lot more peoplespeaking that way now than when
(55:01):
we began our journey along thispath.
And and some of those peoplethat I think are speaking it
most succinctly, widely, youknow, ways that we just
celebrate, we heard about themfrom you.
Uh I mean, people, people whoare saying those things are
people like Jay Stringer, likeSam Jolman, like Kathy Lorzell.
(55:24):
And we've we've gotten to knowsome of those people, had some
of them on the show.
So just in the spirit of notgrowing weary and well-doing, if
if you weren't doing it, I wetrust that God would have
somebody else doing it, but wereally are grateful that people
who have come to know who AdamYoung is and have have
discovered the place we findourselves, people who have been
(55:46):
doing this work and shining alight on this neglected part of
a Christian's experience so thatit's it doesn't have to be
neglected any longer.
Just really, really thankfulfor that.
Stacey Oliver (55:56):
And so all of those people that you've
mentioned, and we just were atthe AACC conference and speakers
there, like it all, it's notall the same, but it it all is
cohesive.
That's the word.
Yeah, complimentary,complimentary, consistent.
Yeah, it just feels so goodbecause I, you know, I talk to
with what we do, I talk to womenwhose husbands have betrayed
(56:16):
them.
And it's just so cool when I'mtalking to them, and then I'll
hear things that you or otherssay, and I'm like, okay.
Um, because I feel a little bitof, oh, can I say that?
Like, did I just say that?
Is that right?
And then because I'm not atherapist, you know, and I'm not
a biblical scholar, but I it'sjust very encouraging.
So I really do appreciate allthat you do and offer to the
(56:40):
world.
So I remember just real quick,the one where you talked, I
don't know what episode or whatit was called, but I remember
this.
If you don't have very manymemories from your childhood,
yeah, like go look at pictures.
And boy, I pulled out thealbums.
Greg Oliver (56:54):
Every photo album you can find.
Stacey Oliver (56:55):
Pulled out the albums because I don't.
I remember some things, but Ijust, yeah.
So that was that was just asmall thing, but it was just one
thing that I remember.
It was really helpful.
Greg Oliver (57:06):
I know that you know this, but but I just want
to affirm that the the fruit ofthis work that you've decided to
do and the direction thatyou've decided to do it in is
connecting in so many healingways with so many people, just
even in our world and far beyondit.
unknown (57:22):
Yeah.
Adam Young (57:23):
Thank you for taking the time to say that.
My heart needs to hear it.
As I don't, I don't getfeedback a lot about the impact
of my labor.
And and it's so good for myheart to hear and to see your
faces as you're putting words towhat you're saying.
Greg Oliver (57:42):
I know what that feels like.
And I heard somebody recentlytalking about the the 10 men
with leprosy that Jesus healed,and only one of them came back
to say thank you.
It's such an easy thing to do,you know, because when you find
the healing and you'recelebrating, you're now you're
you're living the life, right?
It's like we don't want tofault people for living the
life, but just again, honorwhere it's due.
(58:03):
Yeah, just wanted to let youknow about the impact, and I'm
glad I'm glad that it ismeaningful for you.
We're gonna let people know inthe show notes if they don't
already follow the podcast, howthey can do that, how they can
get the book.
Anything else you'd like peopleto know before we finish up?
Adam Young (58:19):
Well, yeah, if you're interested in exploring
your story, the reason I wrotethe book, Make Sense of Your
Story, is to give you a guide todoing that and kind of an
invitation/slash provocation,like an I dare you in an
inviting way.
So put pick up a copy of MakeSense of Your Story.
If you want to know more aboutconferences and things that I
(58:41):
do, you can go toadamyoungcounseling.com.
Greg Oliver (58:43):
Yes, and I've gone to several of those, and I can
tell you from first handexperience it's it's worth it.
It doesn't cost a lot of money,and it's worth every penny.
Adam Young (58:52):
Thanks very much for saying that, Greg.
Stacey, it's good to be withyou.
Greg Oliver (58:55):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us.
Adam Young (58:59):
Thank you.
I want to invite people to ponder that it might
be less energy depleting to lookat the past than not look at
the past.
So many of us are spending somuch energy and we're exhausted,
and we're exhausted becausewe're running from our story.
Announcer (00:20):
Welcome to What We Really Want.
Conversations about connection.
Settle in and get ready for agreat conversation.
Let's talk about what we reallywant.
Greg Oliver (00:36):
Does it just seem like yesterday that we were at
episode number one?
Stacey Oliver (00:41):
Yes.
Greg Oliver (00:41):
And here we are.
This is episode 50.
Maybe, maybe two days ago.
Stacey Oliver (00:45):
We were very nervous.
Greg Oliver (00:46):
Two days ago.
Fair enough.
Stacey Oliver (00:47):
I don't think you were.
Maybe were you?
I speak for you, but were younervous that that first episode?
Bobby West (00:53):
Absolutely.
Stacey Oliver (00:54):
Yeah, I was too.
Greg Oliver (00:55):
I was just nervous that y'all were gonna say
something stupid.
Stacey Oliver (00:57):
Oh, come on.
Bobby West (00:59):
I was nervous about how I was gonna sound.
Stacey Oliver (01:01):
Yeah.
Bobby West (01:02):
I thought I was gonna sound stupid.
Yes.
Okay.
I didn't think I was gonna sayanything stupid, but I thought I
was gonna say something.
Greg Oliver (01:05):
By show of hands, who listened and thinks that
they sound better on the podcastthan they sound in real life?
Stacey Oliver (01:10):
Only when I have a cold.
Greg Oliver (01:12):
Only when you have Okay, yeah.
Well, I don't know what I soundlike in real life, but worse.
Stacey Oliver (01:16):
I had a cold the first episode we did.
I was getting over a cold, andwhen you were editing it, I
heard myself for the first timeand I was like, oh, I kind of
like the way I sound.
Greg Oliver (01:26):
Well, will you sexy thing.
So we're at number 50, and it'sbeen crazy.
Just, I mean, I know I've beenexcited about it the whole time.
I think we've been excitedabout it the whole time, but
it's fun to hear people in ourcommunity and then people even
outside our community who knowus talking about how they
(01:46):
they've gotten excited about ittoo.
Stacey Oliver (01:48):
I think recently somebody filled out a form and
said they heard about us from apodcast.
What, but I don't know thatthey said our podcast.
That's my story.
They heard it from our podcast.
Greg Oliver (02:00):
We'll take that.
Yeah, we'll take it that way.
I mean, we've had at least twopeople who have come to our
Roots Retreat men's recoveryintensive who first heard about
it on the podcast, which ispretty cool.
Bobby West (02:11):
Uh yeah, I remember meeting a guy at our Roots
Retreat.
I'd never met him before, buthe knew me because of the
podcast and was telling me likehow much it meant to him and how
it I think I I think he evensaid it like changed his life,
or it was a starting point forhim to change his life.
I was like, holy.
Greg Oliver (02:27):
Something that was kind of uh surreal, and I don't
know if they I don't know if theyoungsters would say it's meta
or sim or whatever.
I don't know what any of thosethings mean.
But what kind of voice wasthat?
I could do my Hank Hill fromKing of the Hill.
Sounds good.
No, but but we just when we'rerecording this, the day before
this episode comes out, we havejust finished up a Roots
(02:48):
Retreat, men's intensive, and itwas crazy to me how many times
in our group discussions peoplewould say, Well, this reminded
me of that time on that episodewith so-and-so when you said
blah, blah, blah.
Oh, wow.
Like that is weird.
You know, yeah.
It's a good weird though.
Yeah.
Because what it what we hadsaid we wanted out of the show
was that it was going to helpmore people find out about
(03:09):
Awaken and the work that we do,that it was gonna help more
people get an idea of how topursue healthy connections with
themselves and other people inGod.
And and it just really soundslike that's we're getting what
we wanted.
Stacey Oliver (03:22):
So, Greg Oliver, let me ask you what we ask all
of our podcast guests.
What do you want out of ourconversation today?
Greg Oliver (03:28):
Two things.
One is I'd like for you to talknormally because you're
weirding me out.
No, I think the other thing isI just want us to have an
opportunity just to feel andexpress our gratitude for what
the Lord's doing through thisshow.
And I think what people aregonna hear in just a couple of
minutes is gonna make them verygrateful because we've got one
(03:49):
of the guests I've been the mostexcited to have on since we
started.
He's kind of been on my wantlist since before day one, and
that is Adam Young.
Really, really excited thatAdam agreed to be our guest.
And hun, you and I talked tohim about a month ago.
Yeah.
Like, man, just such a rich,rich conversation.
I can remember when my sisterBeth first told me about the
(04:11):
place we find ourselves podcast.
And I remember listening to thefirst episode and just
thinking, whoa, like this isthis is really good and this is
really important.
And it's a podcast that so manypeople in our community and in
our circles have benefited somuch from.
Bobby, what do you hear peoplesaying about the place we find
ourselves?
Bobby West (04:30):
That it's awesome.
I mean, I was the same, butonce I started listening to it,
I was in a place in my lifewhere I was dealing with a lot
of anger towards God.
And Adam Young he had he hadseveral episodes about that, and
it really helped me workthrough that.
Greg Oliver (04:51):
I love that you said that because one of the
things he very specificallytalks about in the episode, in
the interview, you're about tohear is this idea of what we see
and how we relate to God in thePsalms.
Adam had a time in his lifeafter he'd finished graduate
studies, before he went intobeing a therapist, where he had
time on his hands.
(05:12):
And so he actually went throughthe book of Psalms line by line
and categorized what everysingle line and every single
psalm was primarily talkingabout.
And he found out that 4% of thebook of Psalms is the writer
complaining to God about God.
Wow.
That's that's significantenough to show that that honesty
(05:33):
towards how we're feelingtowards God is something that's
biblical because we find itright there.
Bobby West (05:38):
So really I should be talking to God more like I
talk to my wife and my kids.
Well, you could, I think is thepoint.
Stacey Oliver (05:47):
He knows already.
Greg Oliver (05:48):
Yeah, I got a lot of problems with you.
And you're gonna hear about it.
Holy festivus.
Yeah.
But you know, in allseriousness, one of the things
that Adam says, and you'll hearhim say it, is if we are not, if
4% of how we talk to God is notcomplaint, then we are not
praying psalmically, is the wordthat he uses.
(06:08):
And that gave me something tothink about.
Stacey Oliver (06:10):
He doesn't get in quote unquote get in trouble
for talking to God like that.
Greg Oliver (06:14):
Yeah.
He has written a book calledMake Sense of Your Story.
Adam has a longtime connectionwith Dan Alender and the
Allender Center.
He is deeply trained in storywork and uh has helped many,
many people make sense of theirstories.
And we can't wait for you tohear him talk about the full
range of emotions.
This episode is called SadnessDoes Not Sink Us.
(06:38):
I'm just really, really excitedthat we have had over these 50
episodes such a great experiencewith so many wonderful people
that we deeply admire agreeingto come and share some time with
us in conversation.
At this occasion of our 50thepisode, let me just say thank
you to all of our guests.
Thank you to all of ourlisteners.
Thank you, Bobby, Stacy, forjust being a part of this
(07:00):
incredible thing that God's beendoing.
If you are listening and youhave not already followed or
subscribed to the podcast, we'dreally love for you to do that.
We would love for you to helpus by writing a positive review
and sharing about the show onall of your social media
accounts.
We love it and we want as manypeople to hear it as possible.
Well, all of this is some ofthe reflections that we've had
(07:23):
as we have been doing this workof our own recovery and healing
and becoming who we were made tobe.
And a lot of that work has beenhelped along greatly by people
like Adam Young.
So we can't wait for you tohear our conversation with him.
We hope you'll enjoy this 50thepisode of I was almost gonna
say the place we're gonna be.
I've done that before.
(07:43):
I've done it before.
This 50th episode of What WeReally Want.
It's called Sadness Does NotSink Us.
Our guest is someone that wegreatly admire and are glad as a
friend now.
And his name is Adam Young, andthe episode starts right now.
Adam Young, it is so good tohave you on What We Really Want.
I'm smiling from ear to ear.
Thanks for being our guesttoday.
Adam Young (08:04):
Greg, Stacy, it's good to be with you.
It's good to meet you.
Stacey Oliver (08:07):
You too.
Greg Oliver (08:08):
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
You're joining us from Coloradotoday?
Fort Collins, Colorado.
Nice.
I want to ask you the questionwe always start with, which is,
Adam, what do you really wantout of our conversation?
Adam Young (08:20):
I am open to exploring anything that is that
fits the categories ofvulnerable and meaningful,
substantive.
So I'm not really a superficialsmall talk guy, but I'm deeply
interested in connecting withother people.
And in my experience,vulnerability is is the way that
(08:41):
we connect with one another.
Without vulnerability, it'sdifficult to connect to another
human being.
So vulnerability, meaningfulconnection, that's what I want.
Greg Oliver (08:51):
Amen.
We're here for it.
Thank goodness.
Well, this isn't always thecase, but I would guess that
most, almost all, probably ofour listeners know who you are.
There probably aren't manypeople who listen to what we
really want who haven't alsolistened first to the place we
find ourselves podcast.
I was thinking this morning, mysister Beth was the person who
(09:13):
first told me about the place wefind ourselves.
And it it was back in 2018.
And I think at that point youprobably had about 15, maybe 20
episodes out.
And I remember sitting down,particularly with the first two
episodes, with a with a hugespiral-bound notebook and just I
(09:33):
mean, filling up like four orfive pages, the focus and the
the conciseness and the claritythat that it was bringing.
I I'm remembering episode twoon the big six, it was just huge
and put so many pieces togetherand has for thousands of people
since then.
And I know I'm talking a longtime.
I'm gonna get to you likeyou're talking a second.
(09:54):
But but Adam, honestly, I theBible says in Romans 13 that
Christians ought to give respectto those you owe respect and
honor to those you owe honor.
And I really just wanted totake a minute before we get into
what else we're gonna betalking about today and just
give you some honor, Adam.
The the way that you show andcommunicate compassion to people
(10:14):
who have been harmed, and theway that you name harm, not
glossing over it, calling itwhat it is, sometimes using
terms like wickedness, evil, theway that you've allowed your
story of harm and healing tobecome a place where other
people are invited to do thesame thing.
And we I think we both justwant to say thank you for the
gift that you have given us andso many other people.
(10:36):
And you have our deep respectand honor and gratitude.
unknown (10:39):
Yeah.
Adam Young (10:40):
Uh Greg, thank you.
Stacey, thank you.
It's so important for my heartto hear that and fills me with a
lot of joy and meaning.
Stacey Oliver (10:50):
Yeah.
Adam Young (10:51):
I I I long to bear fruit.
And what I'm hearing you say isthat my words have borne fruit
in your heart.
Stacey Oliver (10:57):
Absolutely.
I'm a missionary kid, so I grewup in West Africa, nine, age
nine to eighteen, and and thenwe were in church ministry and
have our story.
So there's been a lot of harm,and it took me a long time to
even know that that's what itwas, but also to acknowledge it
and and to know that what if Iacknowledge that, it doesn't
(11:19):
mean those people were, youknow, intentionally harming me
or knowingly harming me all thetime.
So it's had a big impact onhealing.
Because if we don't understandwhere we've come from, we stay
stuck.
Adam Young (11:33):
That's the truth.
Greg Oliver (11:34):
So, like we said, Adam, a lot of our listeners,
most probably if not all, knowwho you what you do now.
And anybody who's listened tothe place we find ourselves for
a long time or read make senseof your story already know some
of your personal story about howyou came to be where you are
today because you're very openabout that.
But would you be willing tojust take a few minutes and
(11:56):
share with our listeners so thatthey'll be sure to understand
how you came to be where you aredoing the work you do now and
just why it's so important toyou?
Adam Young (13:35):
Well, I got my master's degree in social work
in 1999.
So a long time ago.
But I did not practice.
I did not go in to practice asa therapist because when I
graduated, I I was clear abouttwo things.
Number one, I had significantsymptoms that I couldn't
(13:57):
understand or figure out how tomake go away.
And number two is I I didn'tknow how to help people.
And so I did other stuff for along time.
And then I began practicingtherapy in 2013, largely because
I was a pastor at the time, andthe most important part of
(14:18):
pastoring for me was engagingone-on-one with people's hearts
stories, what they were goingthrough.
And so I was actually doingtherapeutic work without being a
therapist, just because that'show I engage with people, is
what I care about.
Stacey Oliver (14:34):
Yeah.
Adam Young (14:34):
The reason I love being a therapist now is because
it you know, a lot of peoplesubscribe to like Netflix and
Hulu and all that stuff, andthey watch shows, especially in
the evening, and they're thoseare stories, and oftentimes
they're stories of trauma.
Well, I I just get to be inpeople's real life trauma
(14:58):
narratives.
I mean, there is nothing, Imean, Netflix has nothing on
people's real stories, and Idon't just mean their past, I
mean their present, how they'renavigating the complexities of
the harm that they'veexperienced, the glory that they
bear in their present life, intheir marriages, in with with
regard to their currentvocations.
(15:20):
So to me, you know, there'snothing, there's no profession
that's more exciting andmeaningful than therapy.
Greg Oliver (15:29):
So when you got into therapy professionally in
2013, which was what, 14 yearsafter you got your master's?
Yeah, what about it was kind ofwhat you felt like you were now
prepared for?
What about it in the early dayskind of surprised you?
What was it like starting outwhen you felt like maybe you
(15:51):
were more ready than back in 99?
Adam Young (15:54):
Well, the first thought that comes to mind is I
began to engage my own story.
I met a man named Dan Allender.
I read a book called TheWounded Heart, which is about
sexual abuse in your growing upyears.
I went out to spend a week withDan at a program called
Recovery Week.
And I began to during thattime, I began to engage my
story.
I learned that I actually havea story that my experiences as a
(16:19):
boy growing up in my family oforigin continue to affect me
today.
And so the symptoms that I wasexperiencing in my life,
especially anxiety, relationshipproblems, problems with God,
marriage problems, like all thatstuff started making sense.
And I began to have a frameworkfor engaging it that was
(16:41):
actually helpful.
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (16:43):
Well, I that's really important.
That felt important, but itcould have been easy to just
breeze by.
You began to engage with yourstory, but you had a framework
in which to do it.
Because without the framework,that's that's a terrifying thing
to do.
It can be.
And and and one of the thingsthat I told you ahead of time
(17:03):
that I was hoping to talk aboutis why why it's worth it to do
that.
Yeah.
You know, because there's somany objections.
I mean, you list fiveobjections in, I think it's
what, chapter three of your bookthat people have.
And you didn't specificallyname this, but the thing I I
mentioned in my email to you isI could see it being underneath
(17:25):
all of them, which is just aterror of like, yes, what am I
going to uncover and what's itgoing to do to me?
And wouldn't it be better offif I just didn't know?
Adam Young (17:33):
Yes, absolutely.
That's really well named.
It is scary to look inside ourhearts and feel what our bodies
feel.
That is scary, especially forpeople that have a history of
trauma.
And so it's this sense of if Igo there, I might be prostrate
(17:56):
on the floor, unable tofunction, and I actually need to
be a husband and a father andearn earn income.
And I don't know that I canbear the big sorrows, fears,
shame inside my heart.
I don't know that I can containit, and I don't know that I can
(18:17):
function in the midst of it.
So I think you naming theterror that people sometimes
feel when they think aboutlooking at the past very wise
and very common.
Greg Oliver (18:28):
Well, I don't know if this is connected at all, but
uh I just wanted to share thatsomething that I've noticed
since I got your book and I waslooking through it.
The cool thing about being alongtime subscriber to your
podcast is that there wasn't,and this is meant to be a
compliment, there wasn't a lotin the book that I hadn't heard
you say before.
(18:48):
Yeah.
You know, it's kind of aculmination and taking some of
these things and putting them ina volume.
But you know what I what Inoticed is as I look at the
table of contents and thechapter titles, most of them
start with two words, what if?
Adam Young (19:03):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (19:04):
And to me, and I I'd love to hear you talk about
this.
To me, that is relevant to whatyou've just been saying and
with the terror, because if I'mforced or coerced to do this
kind of work, I'm gonna resistautomatically, right?
Yeah, but what if there thoseare invitational words, and I'm
(19:25):
guessing that that wasintentional.
Adam Young (19:27):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I you know, I I want to invitepeople to ponder that it might
be less energy depleting to lookat the past than not look at
the past.
So Barbara Brown Taylor is atheologian and a writer, and she
(19:48):
has a great sentence in one ofher books where she says that
sadness does not sink a person.
It is the energy you spendtrying to avoid sadness that
sinks a person.
And I have found that to bevery true, not just in my life,
but in the lives of the people Iwork with.
So many of us are spending somuch energy and we're exhausted,
(20:13):
and we're exhausted becausewe're running from our story.
We don't want to look at thepast, but the past is in our
bodies, yeah, it's in our cellsand our tissues, it's there.
And if you don't look at it, itit's going to come out
sideways.
Greg Oliver (20:32):
Yes.
And also, I can push the balldown the field for a while
before that happens.
And I can keep avoiding becauseif I'm engaging with the parts
of my story that involved pain,the very engagement is going to
involve more pain.
Adam Young (20:50):
That's right.
Greg Oliver (20:50):
And who wants that?
Adam Young (20:51):
That's right, Greg.
And who wants that?
Stacey Oliver (20:54):
Well, in your addiction, you didn't, you could
have asked for help, but youdidn't know really where to go
to even think about engagingyour story.
Greg Oliver (21:02):
I didn't even get that far.
I didn't get that far.
Because when I was in churchministry and struggling with a
sexual addiction, to get helpmeant that the catastrophic
consequence that I feared wasgoing to happen.
And that blocked me from beingwilling or able to even think
about asking for help.
Stacey Oliver (21:18):
And I didn't have that, but like for me, it was
like the insecurity and the myvalue is in, I thought, you
know, being a worship pastor'swife and being very helpful and
kind and you know, ask Stacy,she'll do it.
She'll she'll she'll be on thetime.
She's dependable.
And I'm like, oh my gosh.
But I was so lonely and I wasnot really fulfilled.
(21:41):
And I didn't know really whatto do either, other than these
are idols and you need to turnfrom them.
But like, what does that evenmean?
You know, and so when thiseverything blew up with him,
well, I had that to deal with,but then that's when I really
got to be able, you know, tolook at my own past and and then
it's been it's been quite thejourney, I'll say that.
(22:03):
But it's good.
With all of this pain andtrauma, like I am more settled
and at peace, and our marriageis in a place that oh gosh, I
would never go back.
Um it's been, yeah, yeah.
Greg Oliver (22:21):
And you cuss a lot too.
Stacey Oliver (22:22):
And I cuss a lot now.
I had two in my arsenal before,and now I feel like I know all
of them.
Greg Oliver (22:31):
Yeah, now you have more, but it's it's endearing.
It's it's sweet.
Stacey Oliver (22:35):
It's precious.
Greg Oliver (22:36):
So, Adam, getting back to what we've been talking
about with the cost and thebenefit of engaging with our
story, because there's both.
There's a lot of benefit thatanybody who has followed you has
heard you talk about, butthere's also great cost.
I mean, one of the things justpersonally I've noticed since
because I was in my late 30swhen I started doing real
(22:57):
authentic, truthful, vulnerablework.
And now after discovering andnaming many ways throughout my
life in which I experiencedharm, I realized like I carry
that with me, that awarenesswith me all the time.
And that's part of the cost.
I feel a little measure ofsadness every single day.
Adam Young (23:20):
Yes.
Yes.
Greg Oliver (23:23):
And that that is something that well, I I was 38
when when things started tochange for me.
I was probably well into my 40sbefore I came to a point where
I could see that carryingsadness every day might not be a
bad thing.
And I've talked with many otherpeople who have noticed the
same thing.
And so I may be asking you torepeat, but I think I'm asking
(23:45):
you to go deeper into somethingthat we've been talking about
the last few minutes is for thatobjection of like, why is it
worth it?
Why is it worth it?
Adam Young (23:55):
Well, for Christian folks, the psalmist puts it like
this the Lord has enlarged mein my distress.
The way Paul will say that isthat we're called to rejoice
with those who rejoice and mournwith those who mourn.
Both texts are getting at thesame idea.
God is very interested inenlarging our hearts so that we
(24:20):
are just as apt to be laughingone minute as we are to be
weeping the next.
That's what it means to grow inthe image and likeness of
Christ.
It means to have a fuller heartwith more capacity for sorrow
and more capacity for joy.
The word that I'm getting at isit means to come alive.
So in you know, in John 10, 10,when Jesus says, I have come
(24:43):
for you to have abundant life,he's talking about vitality, the
the the aliveness of the humanheart.
And when we are in addictions,compulsions, when we're running
from our story, our hearts aresmaller.
Like we are a we are a fractionof the size that we could be.
Stacey Oliver (25:05):
Yep.
I think about the I it was forfreedom that I set you free.
That that like came alive to mein this recovery process
because I was like, it's I'm notjust free.
I'm free to be free and likeexperience it.
And I and I couldn't until somuch was unpacked.
Greg Oliver (25:22):
Yes.
Yeah, I've I noticed somethingwhen you talked about the
smallness a minute ago.
And I'm just thinking back towhen when I would feel like in
the darkest, and thankfully nowI'm having to think back a long
way.
Stacey Oliver (25:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg Oliver (25:36):
Because life has been different.
But just how the way I'vedescribed is when I would be
feeling the most hopeless in myaddiction because I had no one
that I was talking to, and Stacydidn't know any of it.
The the physical sensation thatI felt, I call it scooped out.
I felt small and I felthollowed out and like almost
(25:58):
like my whole being was gonnacave in.
Yep.
And now, just yesterday, therewere some situations going on
that are really difficult.
And I it's not good, it's notfun.
I don't like how it feels, butit feels very, very different
because it doesn't feel likethat smallness or that I'm, you
know, shrinking down or scoopedout.
(26:20):
There really is a differentsense of being able to still be
present, even when there's anunpleasant emotion going on.
Adam Young (26:27):
Yes.
And and what you're puttingwords to, if I'm hearing you
right, is that you have morerelational connection now, and
you are able to reach out whenyou are in need.
And when you were 35, you wereutterly alone with whatever was
going on inside of you.
Greg Oliver (26:48):
Yes, yes.
I'm thinking, hun, about twoyears ago, there was just some
stuff that we were workingthrough.
Nothing was explosive.
I didn't relapse.
There was nothing like quoteunquote bad happening, but just
there are some issues ofstuckness in our marriage.
Yeah.
And and there was a catalyticsituation that kind of brought
it to the surface, and weweren't seeing eye to eye on it.
Stacey Oliver (27:11):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (27:11):
And it was, it it brought in the work that we
subsequently did, it reallyenlightened me to the fact that
I was responding to you veryavoidantly.
And I've never seen myself asavoidant, but kind of like you
talked about how in in your yourbook talking about how with
Caroline you were different thanyou were with other females.
It was kind of like that.
Stacey Oliver (27:31):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (27:31):
And you were kind of insecure.
Very anxious.
Stacey Oliver (27:34):
Yeah, anxious.
Greg Oliver (27:35):
And in the midst of all that, before we went to an
intensive and got some help, Icalled a really good friend who
is also a therapist and just waskind of just bitching about it,
honestly.
You know, and and one of thethings he got to is how old does
that feel?
Adam Young (27:54):
Yes.
Greg Oliver (27:56):
And I had a game changer, instantly started
crying.
unknown (27:59):
Yeah.
Greg Oliver (28:00):
Because what I was talking to him about, the
situation, I said it feels sixyears old, and it feels like
when do I get to have myemotions get some attention paid
to them?
Yes.
And it was, it was just it it'sfunny because it's stuff that
you know and you can point outin other people, but the
(28:21):
self-realization took a littlebit longer.
Adam Young (28:24):
Absolutely.
Greg Oliver (28:25):
But yeah, just the gift of being able to stay there
and and and name it and andalso to know that there wasn't
the threat to the relationshipto take some time to do that was
really a gift.
Adam Young (28:36):
Yeah.
And whenever we have stuckplaces, like you re you guys ran
into a stuck place.
I mean, nine times out of ten,it is because younger parts of
our hearts are being activatedor triggered is the famous word
right now.
And we aren't aware of it.
And as soon as your friendhelped you name that a part of
(29:01):
you was feeling like you feltwhen you were six, yeah, you got
really clear about what wasgoing on for you and why you
were why this was tormenting foryou, this stuckness with
Stacey.
That's right.
Greg Oliver (29:14):
Yeah, because I was in that moment, I was kind of
showing up with a six-year-old'scapacity.
Adam Young (29:20):
Of course.
Of course you were.
Stacey Oliver (29:22):
And I was matching it.
unknown (29:23):
Right.
Stacey Oliver (29:24):
Two six-year-olds probably going at it.
Greg Oliver (29:27):
Two six-year-olds in their 50s showing up and
trying to make somethingproductive happen.
Stacey Oliver (29:32):
But what a different, what a different
place we were in with all thework we had done to that point
to even be able to ask for helpand then, you know, do the
intensive that we did.
And it was scary and hard, butgosh, it was so good.
But I don't think I because Iwonder, I know what I was
struggling with was why am Istill so anxious with him?
(29:53):
Like what I've done all thiswork.
I don't understand.
I know he's not going anywhere.
But when he packs a suitcase,I'm still like coming undressed.
And then when we did ourintensive and realized some of
those parts still neededattention, you know, and there
was stuff we didn't know.
We just weren't having wordsfor.
But yeah, it was uh it wasamazing to me that we were in
(30:16):
the good place that we were in.
But it we both said it waslife-changing, like and that was
just two years ago, and it wasfor our marriage, and it we're
just in such a we still gosideways and I still cuss, but
it we can we know what's goingon, you know.
Greg Oliver (30:32):
So I have a question about some of the stuff
we've been talking about thelast several minutes with
engaging with the sadness andrealizing that like the quote
that you that you cited, not thesadness, but the energy we
spend to avoid the sadness thatsinks a person.
I would imagine, and you cantell me if this is accurate or
not, that in your practice andin your experience working with
(30:55):
a lot of different people, thatthere have been some who
identify as Christians andothers who don't.
Have you found that it trendsin either direction that that a
person's faith experience makesit easier or harder to show up
for this kind of work?
Because I think I know what youwould say, but I want to hear
you say it.
Adam Young (31:14):
Well, in my experience, folks that have
broadly speaking, and kind of anevangelical Christian
background have so many barriersto feeling their feelings.
Yes.
Because it has not been called.
Welcomed in their communitiesgrowing up.
(31:35):
Right.
They haven't, it hasn't beenmodeled.
There are no rituals forsorrow.
There's no expressions.
Anger is like this bad thing.
You're not supposed to getangry, especially if you're a
Christian woman.
Like anger is just anathema.
And this stuff is absolutehogwash.
I mean, we are emotionalbeings, and every single
(31:58):
interaction, every singleemotional expression is a
mixture of dignity anddepravity.
And a lot of people don'tunderstand that there's great
dignity in these emotionalreactions that they've been
taught need to be kind of putaway and not at least not
expressed in public.
Greg Oliver (32:18):
Dignity and godliness.
Adam Young (32:20):
And godliness.
Greg Oliver (32:22):
Yeah.
So beauty.
Why would faith leadersdiscourage that?
Adam Young (32:29):
Well, because it makes their jobs really hard.
And frankly, they haven'ttypically done their own
emotional work.
Yeah.
So they're just deeplyuncomfortable with a with a
congregant, a parishioner who'sin front of them and is sobbing
or is raging.
They haven't done their ownwork with their own sorrow and
(32:51):
anger.
And so when they're in thepresence of big sorrow or big
anger, they don't know what todo and they get dysregulated and
they result to measures ofcontrol.
Greg Oliver (33:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause it and it's still kind ofa capacity thing that's showing
up in those moments.
If they haven't engaged withthat and done their own work,
then their capacity to be in thepresence of that intensity is
very, very low.
That's right.
Well, I think about the whatyou called hogwash that to be
spiritual, it has to be tiltedjust to the side of positivity.
(33:25):
You talk about lament on yourpodcast.
You had an episode where youtalked about and then offered a
resource of how to write yourown psalm.
Yeah.
I'd love for you to talk aboutthat for people who may not have
heard about that yet.
Because if we're stuck in thatkind of evangelical space where
(33:47):
we've never heard it encouragedand maybe have heard it actively
discouraged, that we would seein that place of sorrow and
lament and even complaining.
How do the Psalms show us thatthat's such a biblical thing to
do?
Adam Young (34:00):
Oh my gosh.
So when you have when you'reunemployed, like I was in 2013,
and you have a lot of time onyour hands and you're very
interested in the Bible, youmight undertake a project which
is to read the entire book ofPsalms and categorize every not
psalm, every line of the text.
Greg Oliver (34:26):
You heard that somebody did that one time,
right?
Adam Young (34:28):
You will you will find out that the majority of
the lines of the book of Psalmsare about enemies.
They are either verses that arepraising God for harming one's
enemies or asking God to dojustice to one's enemies.
In other words, they arefocused on anger and the sense
(34:52):
of injustice.
And that is a little bitdifferent than what you often
hear, which you'll hear somepeople say most of the psalms
are psalms of lament.
And that's that's it's it's notexactly it's not exactly true.
It's really speech aboutenemies.
Now, lament is an expression ofsorrow or grief, and there's
(35:12):
lots of that in the book ofPsalms.
But what about your anger?
Where do you go with your angerif you are a Christian?
And what the Bible, in myopinion, is exhorting us to is
that you are to go to God withyour anger, which means to speak
it candidly and without editingyour words.
Greg Oliver (35:35):
That feels really important because we started out
talking about how resistantpeople are to engaging with
things that are going to springup sadness.
But I think within the church,I'm gonna make a blanket
statement, but I think it'strue.
We tend to be a lot morecomfortable with sadness than we
are with anger.
So, like maybe we're willing tocrack, you know, to pop the
(35:58):
hood on sadness, but don't lookunderneath that to, you know,
what and maybe it's the otherway around.
Maybe underneath our anger issomething deep like sadness.
But but anger is really hard tosit with.
Sadness is hard to sit withtoo, but maybe a little easier.
Adam Young (36:15):
Well, it depends on your story, but for lots of
Christian folks, they are verydisconnected from their anger.
In other words, it's not thatthey aren't angry, it's that
they've shoved it into a cornerof the basement of their heart
and they don't go there.
And whenever we do that, itleaks out.
(36:36):
It comes out sideways.
So the the biblical invitation,especially in the book of
Psalms, Book of Lamentations,uh, the book of Job, is to take
our anger, including our angerat God, and like speak it,
express it to God.
Greg Oliver (36:54):
I'm getting a picture in my head of almost
like a scale or a range ofthings that are seen as
acceptable, more or lessacceptable within Christianity.
Yeah.
You know, sadness may be themost acceptable of what we've
been talking about.
Anger a little bit less.
Anger itself is probably thebest kind of anger.
(37:17):
Anger at other people, a littleless acceptable.
Anger at God, absolutely not.
Like you don't get to be angrywith God.
Yeah.
And thinking about like I'm I'mthinking of just a hypothetical
someone who's got a child who'sdying of leukemia.
And we'll go sit with thosepeople and we will sit with them
while they're crying.
(37:37):
And we can do that, but whenthey start like lashing out in
anger at God for letting thishappen, like our skin starts to
crawl and we want to get out ofthere.
Adam Young (37:46):
Yeah.
And what's you're you're namingit really well.
The dilemma is that is somassively unbiblical that that I
don't even have any like if youread your old testament, if you
actually read it, if you readthe book of Jeremiah, if you
read the book of Job, you willsee that there are people who
(38:10):
are taking God to the mat in awrestling match of accusation.
Four percent of the verses inthe book of Psalms are
accusations against God.
And the Psalms is a big book.
Yeah, so four percent is not asmall number.
So here's here's here's a greatway to put it.
If when you pray, four out ofone hundred sentences are not
(38:36):
you accusing God of something,you're not praying psalmically.
Greg Oliver (38:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stacey Oliver (38:41):
So if you are, sorry.
No, please.
If you I haven't done this, ifyou asked somebody why would you
be opposed to this or why doyou think this isn't biblical,
when when you're looking rightat all of these verses, like
what would they say?
Adam Young (38:55):
Well, they would say that I mean, I I've heard
everything from you know, that'sthe old testament, not the new,
which fine.
You go look at the newtestament.
There's no one who judges andaccuses people more than the
apostle Paul.
So it's a bankrupt argument.
But what I think, I think formost people, it's not an
intellectual thing, Stacey.
(39:17):
It's they are afraid of theintensity of their feelings, and
they're afraid that no one intheir community would welcome
them if they were to verbalizethat kind of stuff at a
community group meeting.
That's true.
Or if they were to pray it in asmall group, that that people
(39:39):
would be like, you're notsupposed to say that stuff.
In other words, there arerelational consequences.
And that's why most people, ifthey do this at all, they do it
alone.
And that's tragic.
Tragic.
Stacey Oliver (39:51):
Yeah.
I did express some anger atsome things early on in our
process toward some others thatwere in author, you know,
spiritual authority, and it didnot go well.
Adam Young (40:02):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's that is so sadbecause the church, above all,
needs to be a place where we canbe honest and authentic with
the big feelings inside of us.
And the Bible has lots and lotsof texts that do that.
And yet Christians tend to bevery reluctant to do it.
Greg Oliver (40:26):
And I think, too, to back to the resource that you
offered on how to write yourown psalm, some of the things
that you said about that I thinkcan really help people feel
okay and safe to do thecomplaining part.
Because you talk, and I'd loveto hear you for people who maybe
don't know specifically whatI'm talking about, kind of the
(40:46):
order, the trajectory of doingthat work, because it sort of
begins and ends with the partthat more Christians are
comfortable with.
But in the stuff in the middleis the uncomfortable part.
Adam Young (40:58):
Yeah, I mean, what all I'm inviting people to do
when I say write your own psalmis to look at the book of Psalms
and kind of make it your own.
So, for example, if you were tolook at Psalm 13 and make Psalm
13 your own, yes, it starts outwith an acknowledgement that
(41:18):
you're approaching God.
Oh Lord.
Like that's an acknowledgementthat you are approaching your
creator and your God.
And shortly thereafter, itexpresses lament/slash
accusation with the words, howlong, O Lord?
Like, how much longer am Igoing to have to endure my son's
(41:41):
leukemia?
And if he's died, how muchlonger am I going to have to
like feel the agony of someonewho I gave birth to is not on
the planet and I still am?
So it's accusation, it'slament.
How long, Lord?
And then if you keep readingPsalm 13, the the the tone
(42:06):
changes to, but I trust in yourin your in your unfailing love.
Here's the dilemma.
Most of us think that that waswritten in five minutes.
But anyone who's written a songor a poem knows that it it
often is.
Greg Oliver (42:20):
Multiple sittings, yeah.
Adam Young (42:22):
Multiple sittings in years.
So why not linger with the howlong and not have a tidy bow on
the end?
You'll get to the trust in hisunfailing love when God meets
you in your lament or your rage.
But until God meets you there,it's just words that you're
(42:42):
speaking that are divorced fromwhat you're really feeling.
Greg Oliver (42:45):
Adam, do you think that if the trust that the
psalmist talks about that startsin the fifth verse of Psalm 13,
but I trust, if that ispresent, even if it's latent or
feels latent, when he's saying,Will you forget me forever?
How long will you hide yourface from me?
Must I take counsel in my soul?
(43:06):
Must I have sorrow in my heartall the day?
I think that we would maybefalsely assume that you can't
have trust in a God that you'resaying those things to.
But it seems to me that it'sthe exact opposite.
Adam Young (43:19):
It's the exact opposite.
It takes more faith and trustin God to express your candid,
honest, authentic feelings tothat God than it does to
withhold them in the name of Ishouldn't talk this way to the
Holy One.
Greg Oliver (43:34):
Yeah.
Adam Young (43:36):
So Christians need to learn from the Jews how to do
lament and how to do candidprayer.
Could you say more about that?
Well, the Old Testament is theHebrew scriptures, and on the
whole, the Jewish people are farmore comfortable with
(43:56):
expressing doubt, anger,accusation, protestations of
innocence.
They're far more comfortablewith wrestling with the Holy One
than especially evangelicaltypes.
Catholics a little bit more so.
But the evangelical, you know,that's what I grew up in.
So that's the tradition I know.
(44:18):
You just you're supposed torejoice in the Lord always.
Don't let the sun go down onyour anger.
In other words, there are theseverses in the New Testament
that are used to silence our bigfeelings.
Greg Oliver (44:31):
Well, and the Bible does say those things, but
those aren't the only thingsthat the Bible says.
Stacey Oliver (44:37):
But that you can't be doing this other at the
same time.
Greg Oliver (44:40):
Yeah, it's like the complexity is what we struggle
with so much.
Stacey Oliver (44:47):
I know in the early days of our recovery when
I was so angry, I did muchbetter job.
Honestly, I was this is theonly place I could go was
Psalms.
I didn't want to have anythingto do with the rest of the Bible
because I identified here, youknow, and I was like so mad.
Yeah.
But I did, I'm like, I I trustin my head and I know what I was
(45:08):
taught growing up as far as Ihave a foundation.
I know you're there, but I butI don't actually right now.
So I believe help my unbeliefkind of thing.
But yeah, I need I I think Iwould it would be good for me to
get back to that because Idon't do that as much anymore.
Greg Oliver (45:23):
Well, I likewise, I mean, I spent a lot of time in
my early recovery in the 30s, inthe Psalm like 30 through 39,
because those are just some ofthe the ones that were, I guess
the way I would phrase it ismeeting me where I was at that
time.
Not that all scripture isn'tinspired by God, not that all
scripture isn't good for all thethings that Paul said it's good
(45:46):
for, but that right now, thisis the scripture that's gonna
make me feel most connected toGod because it's about hurt and
it's about suffering andconfusion.
I want to ask you about a wordthat you use in the book.
Something that I've enjoyedabout our conversation is that
we're for people who arefollowers of Jesus, who believe
(46:10):
that the Bible is the word ofGod, but have experienced it
taught, maybe not a incorrectbut an incomplete way, or
hearing some things maybedifferently.
One of the things that Inoticed in the book is your use
of the word idolatry.
And early in chapter two, youquote from Isaiah 61, and you
(46:32):
say that idolatry grows in thesoil of your pain is coming out
of that scripture.
You also say we become captiveto those things that promise to
protect our hearts from beingwounded in the same way again.
And you you had just told astory about a man who, as a
young boy, was overweight, wasridiculed, and then he kind of
became addicted to exercise anddeveloped an eating disorder.
(46:55):
And so, you know, we we developthese strategies so that we
never hurt that same way again.
And the word you use todescribe them was idolatry.
And at first blush, I wouldthink that what people have been
told about idolatry in the pastmight tend to invite them to
drift towards shame, but whatyou say about it is much kinder
(47:16):
than that.
And and I'd love to hear youjust talk a little bit about
just what is this type ofidolatry that you're referring
to?
Adam Young (47:24):
Idolatry is simply looking to something other than
God for safety, protection,rescue, salvation, shalom,
goodness.
Greg Oliver (47:36):
Yeah.
Adam Young (47:37):
And anytime as a boy or a girl, your heart is
harmed, and all of usexperienced harm as boys or
girls, you naturally will beginto make kind of agreements and
vows that protect you in thefuture.
(47:57):
So, in the example I gave inthe book of this man who was,
you know, when he was a fifthgrader and they did those PE
tests where you had to do apull-up and he was overweight
and he couldn't do one.
Stacey Oliver (48:08):
Yeah.
Adam Young (48:08):
And he was mocked and he was humiliated.
And something in that fifthgrader's heart said to himself,
never again.
Of course it did.
And he went, of course it did.
And he went home and he becameobsessive about exercise and
anorexic and and deeplycommitted to controlling his
(48:29):
body's weight.
So that is absolutely idolatry.
Here's the dilemma.
Most people hear that word andthey think like they hear it as
an accusation.
What I want people tounderstand is your idolatry
grows in the soil of your pain.
That's what that's what Isaiah61 is saying.
(48:50):
The the suffering servant cameto heal the brokenhearted.
There's your pain, the brokenheart, to release the captives.
There's the idolatry.
We become captive to things.
And whether it's financialsecurity or status in the
community, or you know, aperfectly shaped body, or you
(49:11):
know, you you're the you're theone with all the friends, and
everyone looks to you foradvice, or you're in some
particular inner circle.
Look, whatever you need foryour life to be well, that is
always in story.
There's a reason that youridolatry, Stacey, differs from
(49:35):
mine.
And it's and you willunderstand that reason only by
looking at your story and mystory.
And so all of us need tounderstand our growing up years
to understand why we are captivebound to the things that we
are.
Stacey Oliver (49:53):
That's so good.
Greg Oliver (49:54):
If that idolatry is seeking safety or care or
protection from something otherthan God, like you said, and we
go back to our stories, is therealways or usually some element
of when we go to that story,God, where were you?
Adam Young (50:11):
I don't know about always, but certainly often, I
mean, certainly often.
I mean, this is what's soagonizing for many Christian
folks, is they don't want towrestle with that question.
God, where were you when I wassexually abused?
Stacey Oliver (50:29):
Yeah.
Adam Young (50:29):
How could you let that happen, God?
Yes.
Or if it's not sexual abuse,where were you when my father
was struggling with alcoholismduring that horrible season of
my life from the ages of 10 to15?
Where were you when my motherwas being contemptuously yelled
at by my alcoholic father forfour years and I was powerless
(50:51):
to do anything about it?
Greg Oliver (50:52):
Or when I was one of 12 children and I was
neglected, and so I foundcomfort in pornography or
whatever.
Adam Young (50:58):
Yes, exactly.
We don't want to contend withthe Holy One of Israel, we don't
want to engage with God aboutwhere were you?
Greg Oliver (51:13):
Yes.
Adam Young (51:19):
Like yours did, both of you, when you were 38, 39,
whenever it was, God, where areyou right now?
Yes.
Where are you right now?
Stacey Oliver (51:31):
Because what I was taught not that this would
happen.
Adam Young (51:34):
Yeah.
Stacey Oliver (51:35):
Based on what I I obeyed most of the rules.
I this isn't not what I'msupposed to get.
What in the world?
Adam Young (51:42):
That's right.
Greg Oliver (51:42):
That's right.
I feel like it's important tojust point out that when we say,
of course, you asked thatquestion, or you know, that
makes so much sense that youthought that you had to do it
yourself, or that you didn'tthink or that you thought God
had abandoned you.
To say of course, that's notstipulating that what they feel
(52:08):
is something that you believewas true, or that you even think
that that's what they at theirdeepest place believe is true.
You know, I think that I'vetalked to some Christian leaders
who have been afraid to say nowonder or of course to something
that involved sin ordestructive behavior because of
a fear that it's going to bereceived as license.
(52:28):
But right.
Wouldn't it be different if wejust if we didn't assume that
the people are doing thesedestructive things because they
really want to?
Adam Young (52:36):
Yeah, yeah.
It it's the title of yourpodcast, What We Really Want.
Yeah.
And this is this is not new.
Thomas Chalmers, Puritanwriter, talks about the
expulsive power of a newaffection.
And that's just old Englishlanguage for whenever you are
desiring something, youraffection that is not serving
(52:59):
you, there's always a deeperdesire underneath there that is
actually quite beautiful andlovely.
And so many people don'tunderstand that.
They feel so much shame aboutsome of their desires.
Sexual in other words, I don'tjust mean sexual, I mean desires
across the board.
The desire to, you know, getthe promotion, the desire to be,
(53:24):
a desire to have a biggerhouse, whatever you're whatever
you envy in other people,whatever wherever your desires
are unmet, the the the desire tohave my son healed of his
mental illness, whatever it is.
Greg Oliver (53:36):
Right.
Adam Young (53:37):
And and you're told like you should trust in God.
Stacey Oliver (53:41):
That was right in my mind, like that was right
behind there.
That's what I feel like thatwould have been said.
Adam Young (53:46):
Yeah.
And instead of going into thedesire and finding out what you
really want.
Stacey Oliver (53:55):
Yes.
Adam Young (53:56):
Yes.
And and what's so beautiful forso many of the people I work
with is that when you take theminto their desires, they have
this aha moment of like, oh mygosh, my desires are really
quite holy.
They are being expressed in anunholy way, but boy, oh boy, my
(54:16):
desire for connection,relational intimacy, my desire
for goodness in my marriage, mydesire for to be welcomed and to
belong in my community.
Like these desires are so holy.
And this is part of what itmeans to be created in the image
(54:37):
of God.
Greg Oliver (54:39):
A moment ago, Adam, you said we haven't grown up
hearing people saying it thatway or saying those things.
And as we wrap up, I I want tojust come back to gratitude
because there are a lot morepeople speaking that way now
than there used to be.
There are a lot more peoplespeaking that way now than when
(55:01):
we began our journey along thispath.
And and some of those peoplethat I think are speaking it
most succinctly, widely, youknow, ways that we just
celebrate, we heard about themfrom you.
Uh I mean, people, people whoare saying those things are
people like Jay Stringer, likeSam Jolman, like Kathy Lorzell.
(55:24):
And we've we've gotten to knowsome of those people, had some
of them on the show.
So just in the spirit of notgrowing weary and well-doing, if
if you weren't doing it, I wetrust that God would have
somebody else doing it, but wereally are grateful that people
who have come to know who AdamYoung is and have have
discovered the place we findourselves, people who have been
(55:46):
doing this work and shining alight on this neglected part of
a Christian's experience so thatit's it doesn't have to be
neglected any longer.
Just really, really thankfulfor that.
Stacey Oliver (55:56):
And so all of those people that you've
mentioned, and we just were atthe AACC conference and speakers
there, like it all, it's notall the same, but it it all is
cohesive.
That's the word.
Yeah, complimentary,complimentary, consistent.
Yeah, it just feels so goodbecause I, you know, I talk to
with what we do, I talk to womenwhose husbands have betrayed
(56:16):
them.
And it's just so cool when I'mtalking to them, and then I'll
hear things that you or otherssay, and I'm like, okay.
Um, because I feel a little bitof, oh, can I say that?
Like, did I just say that?
Is that right?
And then because I'm not atherapist, you know, and I'm not
a biblical scholar, but I it'sjust very encouraging.
So I really do appreciate allthat you do and offer to the
(56:40):
world.
So I remember just real quick,the one where you talked, I
don't know what episode or whatit was called, but I remember
this.
If you don't have very manymemories from your childhood,
yeah, like go look at pictures.
And boy, I pulled out thealbums.
Greg Oliver (56:54):
Every photo album you can find.
Stacey Oliver (56:55):
Pulled out the albums because I don't.
I remember some things, but Ijust, yeah.
So that was that was just asmall thing, but it was just one
thing that I remember.
It was really helpful.
Greg Oliver (57:06):
I know that you know this, but but I just want
to affirm that the the fruit ofthis work that you've decided to
do and the direction thatyou've decided to do it in is
connecting in so many healingways with so many people, just
even in our world and far beyondit.
unknown (57:22):
Yeah.
Adam Young (57:23):
Thank you for taking the time to say that.
My heart needs to hear it.
As I don't, I don't getfeedback a lot about the impact
of my labor.
And and it's so good for myheart to hear and to see your
faces as you're putting words towhat you're saying.
Greg Oliver (57:42):
I know what that feels like.
And I heard somebody recentlytalking about the the 10 men
with leprosy that Jesus healed,and only one of them came back
to say thank you.
It's such an easy thing to do,you know, because when you find
the healing and you'recelebrating, you're now you're
you're living the life, right?
It's like we don't want tofault people for living the
life, but just again, honorwhere it's due.
(58:03):
Yeah, just wanted to let youknow about the impact, and I'm
glad I'm glad that it ismeaningful for you.
We're gonna let people know inthe show notes if they don't
already follow the podcast, howthey can do that, how they can
get the book.
Anything else you'd like peopleto know before we finish up?
Adam Young (58:19):
Well, yeah, if you're interested in exploring
your story, the reason I wrotethe book, Make Sense of Your
Story, is to give you a guide todoing that and kind of an
invitation/slash provocation,like an I dare you in an
inviting way.
So put pick up a copy of MakeSense of Your Story.
If you want to know more aboutconferences and things that I
(58:41):
do, you can go toadamyoungcounseling.com.
Greg Oliver (58:43):
Yes, and I've gone to several of those, and I can
tell you from first handexperience it's it's worth it.
It doesn't cost a lot of money,and it's worth every penny.
Adam Young (58:52):
Thanks very much for saying that, Greg.
Stacey, it's good to be withyou.
Greg Oliver (58:55):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us.
Adam Young (58:59):
Thank you.
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