November 25, 2025 • 50 mins
"Send us a message! (questions, feedback, etc.)"
It's critical for ministry leaders to understand their responsibility and opportunity to help people in their churches who are sexually struggling. That was a key theme in our rich conversation with Sam Black, Director of Recovery Education at Covenant Eyes. Sam explained that empathy plus action breaks porn’s grip, and how churches can become truly safe communities for strugglers and spouses. We talked about practical tools, trauma-informed insights, and a clear path toward allyship, healing, and prevention.
Some of the themes from our conversation included...
• Early exposure + repetition + pain = a common pathway into pornography.
• Allyship and accessibility work better than traditional accountability.
• How mind-body-spirit healing helps interrupt the addiction cycle.
• What constitutes safe people in safe places with a safe process.
• How church leaders often unintentionally add harm to betrayed spouses.
• Sex (or more sex) is not the solution to porn use.
• How to find available, practical, ready-to-use tools for pastors and leaders.
• How healing it is when leaders admit mistakes & repair ruptures.
#samblack #covenanteyes #thehealingchurch #pornographyaddiction #therapy #healing #addiction #trauma #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation
Covenant Eyes website
Five Stones pastor kit (FREE from Covenant Eyes)
The Healing Church book (Amazon)
Awaken website
Roots Retreat Men's Intensive
Roots Retreat Women's Workshop
Awaken Men & Women's support meeting info (including virtual)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg (00:00):
Is that a Star Wars lunchbox on the shelf above you?
Sam (00:04):
It is a Star Wars lunchbox.
Greg (00:06):
That's awesome. That's incredible.
Sam (00:08):
Down below, I have my Darth Vader over here and then
Mandalorian helmet.
Greg (00:17):
Oh my gosh... You're like a full-on nerd.
Speaker (00:21):
Welcome to What We Really Want.
Conversations about connection.
Settle in and get ready for agreat conversation.
Let's talk about what we reallywant.
Greg (00:34):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of What
We Really Want.
Today is episode 51.
It's called Safe People, SafePlaces, Safe Process.
And our guest is Sam Black.
Sam is the director of recoveryeducation at Covenant Eyes, a
company that's been around for aquarter century, and they exist
(00:54):
to help people overcomepornography and be restored and
transformed.
Almost 2 million people haveutilized their tools and
resources in an effort to rejectpornography, realizing that
it's an unhealthy presence intheir lives and to seek to live
whole and live lives ofintegrity.
Sam has been with Covenant Eyesfor 19 of those 25 years.
(01:17):
It's been really cool for me tosee the trajectory that
Covenant Eyes has had in theirgrowth, more than just being a
tool that people put on theirphones and their computers and
their other devices todiscourage them from looking at
porn.
Covenant Eyes has become acommunity.
They have tons of resources.
They have tons of informationto help people understand not
(01:39):
only how to say no to and walkaway from pornography, but also
to realize what's underneath it,how to pursue and move toward
the healthy things in life andnot just away from the unhealthy
things.
There's so much resonancebetween how we look at the
problem of pornography and thesolutions for it and the way
that they do.
And so it was just really greatto have a conversation.
(02:00):
I've known Sam, I think atleast 10 years.
We have bumped into each otherseveral times at different
events.
It was great to get to see Samback in September when we were
at the American Association forChristian Counselors World
Conference.
And I was able to catch up withSam there and tell him how much
I'd like to have him on thepodcast, particularly to talk
(02:20):
about a book that he wrote acouple of years ago called The
Healing Church (02:23):
What Churches Get Wrong About Pornography and
How to Fix It.
This is a resource that's alittle bit off the regular
beaten path in the area ofpornography, unwanted sexual
behavior, and recovery from it.
Instead of being written forthe person who's struggling,
this is written for people wholead church and faith
(02:44):
environments where these peoplelive.
And so this is for the pastor,this is for the ministry leader,
because there's a lot of thingsthat historically the church
has gotten wrong about how weaddress porn and sexual
brokenness.
Thankfully, we can see a lotmore things trending in a
healthier direction, but there'sstill a lot that we have to
learn.
And Sam wrote this book in2023, The Healing Church, in an
(03:06):
effort to give a lot of insight,information, encouragement to
people who are in ministrypositions, because let's face
it, people who are serving inministry leadership have not
received enough training inorder to be effectively
trauma-informed and understandaddiction and understand
recovery.
All the things that the peoplein their churches are going
(03:29):
through in droves.
There are people who areworking to help fill those gaps,
and Sam's one of them.
I didn't know until we startedtalking how much of a Star Wars
fan Sam is, like me, so that wasfun.
But you'll just love his heartand you'll really hear his
desire not only for the good forpeople who are seeking to
recover, but also for the peoplewho are the helpers, who are
(03:50):
the spiritual leaders.
It's episode 51.
Our guest is Sam Black.
It's called Safe People, SafePlaces, Safe Process.
And it starts right now.
Sam Black, welcome to What WeReally Want.
Hey, Greg, it's always good totalk with you.
Sam (04:05):
We we just uh saw each other at the AECC conference in
Nashville, and I'm glad we getto continue our conversations.
Greg (04:12):
Me too.
At the time we're recordingthis, I think it's been about
four or five weeks since we saweach other in Nashville.
And gosh, I think before that,it had been maybe eight or nine
years since we'd seen each otherin person.
Was it that long?
I think it might have been theset-free summit in North
Carolina, which was back in2016.
Sam (04:33):
That was 2016.
That's right.
But then you and I and NateLarkin and others were at the
conference, the men's conferencein Alabama.
Greg (04:42):
That's right.
Yeah, the uh Ironworks men'sconference down in Andalusia.
Yeah, we've got some goodfriends down in Andalusia.
I had forgotten about that one.
And you were doing music there,right?
Yeah, yeah.
My good friend Michael Adlerput a band together and asked me
to come play keys.
So good memory, better thanmine.
Well, Sam, I'm looking forwardto talking with you about a lot
(05:02):
of things.
But before we get to anything,let me just ask you right off
the bat, what do you really wantout of our conversation?
Sam (05:08):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I love I love that you startoff the show of it that way.
And I think the two things thatI would hope for most is for
empathy and action.
And that can come in in anumber of ways.
Yeah.
But it might be that you needto have some empathy for
yourself as you're listening,you know, to understand, man, I
(05:29):
got set up for this probably ata very young age, but I need to
take some action to restorewhat's been lost.
It might be that you're aleader or a pastor in your
church, and maybe this doesn'treally has never been your
issue, and I don't reallyunderstand why someone would
struggle so intently withpornography.
(05:51):
So understanding more about itcan create empathy, but then
also lead to action that setspeople free from their bonds.
Greg (05:59):
I love that.
And I love your use of thosetwo things together because
empathy without action feelsgreat, but doesn't really help
lead us out of the stuckness.
And action without empathy canfeel like it's got all the
tenderness of a sledgehammer.
Sam (06:17):
And honestly, neither one work.
You can have all the oh man, Ithat stinks that I'm here, but
oh well, I'll I'll just tryharder.
And and that never works.
And then, hey, you just need toquit that.
Don't do that.
God's not for that doesn't helpeither.
So how can we how can wecombine the two and really make
(06:40):
meaningful change in people'slives?
Greg (06:42):
For all the people who, as you said, were set up for this,
and I was gonna ask you whatyou mean by the this, and then
you said just a life that seemslike it's been just ruled and
and and controlled bypornography.
Sam (06:54):
You know, there's a con we we've seen this over and over
again, and and some of yourlisteners who who tune in a lot
probably have got, yep, I knowthis.
And others who don't haven't,maybe this will be the first
time you've heard this.
But there is a common formulafor people who find themselves
trapped in pornography, right?
It's that early exposure, theongoing use and repetition of
(07:17):
use of pornography, and oftensome trauma and some pain.
Typically happens at a youngage, but can happen otherwise.
I was 10 years old when I firstsaw pornography.
We were talking earlier aboutthe year Star Wars came out in
1977, right?
Yeah, that was also the sameyear that I saw pornography for
the first time.
And I can remember walking outof my home in Florida, and my
(07:39):
brother, who is 10 years olderthan me, and he and his friend
were leaning against a carlooking at a magazine, but
looking at it sideways, and thatdidn't make any sense.
How can you read sideways?
And I asked, but I sure didn'tsee curiosity, right?
Totally innocent curiosity,yes, right?
Yeah, and then they turned itaround, same curiosity at work
(08:02):
that was natural in me, right?
Right.
That instead of looking away, Istepped forward.
Sure, you did.
Yeah.
Now I just told you a storyabout the first time I saw
pornography, and I can't tellyou anything else about that
day.
And that is so common in the pstories of people who find
themselves trapped today.
(08:22):
Yeah, if they think about it,they can go, I have a memory of
being exposed to pornography.
It's an imprintation, and itit's uh it's a hyper stimulus,
and what I saw was a magazine,right?
Greg (08:36):
Nothing like what they're exposed to today.
Sam (08:38):
It's so much worse today, right?
So much more impactful.
That super stimulus was justand I was never prepared for it.
I grew up in a Christian home,but also very an isolated kind
of let's not, we don't talkabout those kinds of things,
right?
So I got set up.
I got set up on a day that Inever anticipated that that's
(09:02):
the day that would change someof the trajectory in my life, a
big part of my life, right?
Greg (09:08):
Gosh, I'm just I'm still thinking about how substantial
1977 was in your life.
I mean, there were two majorthings that were life-changing,
right?
I mean, not to not to makelight uh of or to elevate
unnecessarily, but being a kidand seeing just the masterpiece
(09:30):
of new, you know, motion picturetechnology that Star Wars was,
that changed your life as a boy.
And so did seeing thatcenterfold.
That just struck me.
I mean, two very differentthings that made uh a lifelong
impression.
Sam (09:44):
Absolutely.
I also came from, though it wasa Christian home, it was a
hypocritically violent home.
And so my father grew up withabuse, his father grew up with
abuse, and the cycle hascontinued for generations.
So I really had someopportunities to understand that
(10:05):
I could have continued thatcycle.
But nonetheless, where thatabuse came in of hitting,
yelling, name-calling, thosekinds of things, things that I
should have received that Ididn't, pornography became an
escape.
And I didn't even realizethat's what I was doing.
(10:28):
I had a friend, and his dad hadpornography that was falling
out of his closet.
If you imagine your normalbasic closet with, you know,
you've got the folding doorsthat open and there's a shelf up
top, it looked a lot like awaterfall.
There were stacks ofpornography that were like
flowing over and a pile of it onthe floor.
And I could take anything Iwanted, and I did.
(10:49):
And when I felt angry andfrustrated or bullied or sad or
depressed, or I'm not worthy, orall these other things, the
pornography could create thisescape where I didn't have to
feel that.
I could numb out, I could feelelation, and that's what we
often miss in the church today.
(11:11):
That formula of early exposure,some ongoing use through
adolescence, and some using thatnot just because it feels good,
but because it provides a meansof escape from the things that
I don't want to feel.
Greg (11:26):
Well, see, you've named that so well.
Before we hit record, you weretelling me that since your book
came out that we'll talk aboutsoon, you've done about 200 of
these interviews.
And so you talk about this alot.
So it's not surprising that youwould have a very eloquent and
concise way of describing thisis what was going on.
(11:47):
The thing that strikes me isyou knew none of that when you
were 10.
You know, you didn't said Ididn't realize what I was doing,
but something in you knew thisis it, right?
There was something instinctivethat was happening, no words,
but like whatever's off,whatever feels bad, this is the
(12:11):
thing that's going to take careof that.
You know, this always and thestrategy was born.
Sam (12:17):
Yeah.
You know, children have anamazing capacity to survive.
Yeah, they do.
To to get through whateverthey're going through, whether
it's bullying or abuse orneglect, uh, maybe they come
from a really good family.
They don't they didn'texperience what I experienced,
but there's ways and things thatthey don't really know how to
(12:41):
deal with.
And man, this feels good.
And whatever I'm feeling alittle down, it I'm just running
to hear if I feel bored orfrustrated, whatever it is.
These triggers vary for people.
We all have wounds, regardlessof where we come from.
And we have to understand thosewounds, we have to think about
(13:02):
those.
Why do I do what I do when Isay I don't want to do it?
Yeah.
This is Paul speaking, right?
Greg (13:09):
And that's the Romans 7 dilemma that so many of us can
relate to.
Sam (13:13):
Right.
And so I I think if we bearinto it a little bit, we can
begin to understand more aboutwhy we do it, and then take
steps to mitigate that.
That when I feel angry orfrustrated, or do I need to
self-medicate with food orshopping or or work or exercise
(13:39):
or alcohol or drugs or somethingelse or pornography?
How can I learn to sit withthat emotion?
Maybe call up my friend Gregand say, hey man, this is what
I'm feeling today.
Yeah.
This is what I'm thinkingabout.
Greg (13:54):
Well, and what and and so many people don't do that.
A, because some of them don'teven think of that as an option
because it was never modeled, itwas never taught.
But the ones that do think ofit, there's a fear, there's a
terror, all the things thatcould go wrong if I let somebody
else in on this that keeps themfrom doing something that
(14:14):
inside they but they probablydesperately want to do.
Sam (14:18):
If you really knew me, would you really love me?
Greg (14:21):
Right.
And the assumption is probablynot- you would accept me.
Probably not.
Sam (14:24):
Yeah.
And we've often learned thatbecause you know I was a great
performer.
I was the golden child in myfamily.
There were rebels.
I had four older brothers.
There we had some rebels in ourfamily.
And the rebels are the mosthonest.
They're the ones sayingsomething is terribly wrong
here.
I'm not happy about this, andI'm kicking back.
(14:45):
Yeah.
The golden child comes on theside and says, I can maneuver
through the rules, I canmaneuver through reading the
room to understand when violenceor other things might happen.
I can navigate that well if Ipay attention.
Yeah.
I can put on a show that says,Yep, that's they're doing
(15:07):
exactly what I want them to do.
And that's what I would do.
That's I was a very goodperformer, very good people
pleaser.
And when you get anopportunity, not every, and and
we're gonna go, let me go backto that.
Let's call a friend.
Greg (15:23):
Yeah.
Sam (15:23):
Uh, not everybody needs to know everything about you.
Nope.
But somebody needs to knoweverything about you.
Greg (15:29):
Somebody needs to have all access.
Sam (15:32):
The value of that is that you actually have an opportunity
and a safe person to be fullyknown and fully loved.
Greg (15:40):
Yeah.
Sam (15:40):
To know God's full love for you.
Greg (15:42):
Yeah.
(17:13):
I love some of the languagethat has evolved in this space
in which we work over the years,because everybody almost to a
man who comes into our communitylooking for help with his
sexual compulsion or addiction,unwanted behavior, one of the
first things that he says heneeds is accountability.
And and that And doesn't evenknow what that means.
(17:35):
Well, or he knows what it'smeant to that point.
And that's why his eyes aretwitching, right?
Because his experience withaccountability has been a
dumpster fire because it's just,it's basically the sexual
behavior version of a cuss jar.
It's like if I am honest, I'mgoing to get punished.
And back in 2012, when MichaelKustik wrote Surfing for God, he
(17:56):
talked about the cop coach andcardiologist styles of
accountability.
And he and he said in that bookthat really maybe a better way
of describing it thanaccountability is accessibility.
And that's what you're talkingabout, is giving people access.
And I even love that CovenantEyes over the years has shifted,
at least my perception is y'allhave shifted, and I'm guessing
(18:17):
it was probably intentional, tousing ally terminology more than
accountability partner becausethat's really very intentional.
Yeah, because that's suggestingthat's what we really need.
We need somebody that we see asan ally, a co-laborer, a
co-traveler with us in this, andnot somebody who's standing
over us wagging a finger andjust waiting for us to screw it
(18:38):
up.
Sam (18:38):
An ally has your back.
They know your goals, they wantto see you succeed, they know
your faults, and they're thereto stand with you and thicken
thin.
Greg (18:46):
Yeah.
Well, Sam, 1977 was the yearyou were first exposed to
pornography.
2023 was the year that yourbook, The Healing Church, What
Churches Get Wrong AboutPornography, came out.
And so that's 46 years.
There's a lot of life thathappened in the span between You
(19:07):
make me sound really old.
Well, you're you and I areabout the same age.
Yeah, we're just a couple ofyears apart.
But before we go into anythingspecific from the book, what
were the next four decades likefor you navigating through
pornography and youth andadolescence and young adulthood
and the brokenness that camewith that and led you to what
you're doing now, which isworking with covenant eyes.
(19:29):
And yeah, and do that in just acouple minutes.
Sam (19:34):
Nothing like a great challenge.
Man, I've got to shorten astory and I didn't tell you I
was gonna ask you that.
No.
Pornography followed me throughhigh school to college and into
my marriage.
And I'm among the mostfortunate people you're ever
gonna meet because by this timeI've pretty much become
(19:54):
agnostic.
God's probably there.
I don't think he really caresthat much if he does at all.
Now, listen, I grew up in ahome where the Bible played on
records.
So I can navigate my waythrough the Bible very well.
Literally, I heard it on anongoing basis.
But here I am, and and andstudies show that this ongoing
(20:18):
use of pornography is has adirect relation to prayer life,
scripture reading, whetheryou'll serve in a volunteer role
in your church, and doubtsabout God and and his plan,
proven by a University ofOklahoma study.
I again am probably among themost fortunate people you're
gonna meet because my wife istaking our babies to a local
(20:40):
church.
And she comes to me one day andshe says, Hey, there's a group
that's meeting on marriage, andI think you know we could really
work on our marriage, and I'mlike, Yeah, I know we can do
that.
Would you be willing to go withme to this study?
I said, Yeah, absolutely.
And so we walk into thisclassroom and the facilitators
(21:02):
close the door and they look atthe class with a big smile and
say, This is a safe place.
Greg (21:08):
Wow.
Sam (21:09):
What is said here stays here.
And when we're really honestwith one another and care for
one another, and we're open withone another, then we can really
find healing in ourrelationships.
What?
What this isn't this isn't thechurch I grew up in.
What's going on here?
Right.
Well, it turned out that thesewere 12 steppers that were
(21:30):
facilitating the class, and theyhad gone through addiction and
they knew that the recoveryprocess isn't just for people
who have addictions, it's foreverybody.
That's right.
Like if you want to live abetter life, understand recovery
so you can really bear in, beopen, be honest, get real.
Uh recognize that you need tosubmit to God, that you need to
(21:54):
submit to one another.
Oh my goodness, there are somany beautiful lessons in the
recovery journey for everyone.
Greg (22:01):
Yeah.
Sam (22:01):
And so that was also, though, where I learned that
pornography could be addictive.
And that was a great reliefbecause that meant evolution
didn't make me this way, Goddidn't make me this way.
Wow.
And I didn't have to stay thisway.
And so with some brothers, Igot to take a walk toward
freedom.
And little by little I got ledto covenant eyes.
(22:22):
That's a whole nother story.
But man, I spent my first 18years as a journalist.
And God just says, Sam, I'vegot a plan for that.
You think you have you knowyour ways, but let me show you
what I want to do.
So God just used those talentsto create the healing church,
another book called The PornCircuit.
And just been able to createnow.
(22:44):
I serve as director of recoveryeducation at Covenant Eyes.
We've created 50 differentcourses within the Victory app,
which are all free.
And you can download theVictory app for free.
It's an amazing opportunity tolearn and grow, check in with an
ally.
The tools that's that's in thatapp is just so amazing.
Greg (23:04):
I'm glad that you mentioned your role as recovery
education director, because Ithink that there, well, there's
a criticism or just anuncertainty that I've heard
people communicate over theyears about resources like
Covenant Eyes that do filteringaccountability.
(23:25):
People, if they're taking asurface look at it, might just
kind of consider it a behaviormodification band-aid, right?
And I would, and and I wouldeven say it it definitely could
be that, as could any resource.
I mean, depending on what yourexpectation is, where your heart
is, you could use covenant eyesand say, well, this is going to
(23:46):
keep me from looking at porn.
And I'm like, I guarantee youthat it will not if you are
highly motivated to findpornography.
But I describe tools likecovenant eyes as a speed bump on
the interstate.
You know, it's like it's anopportunity.
Have you ever been driving andkind of gotten hypnotized by the
road and realized that, like,oh my gosh, I don't remember the
last five miles?
(24:07):
And it's kind of that's the thebrain space when we're getting
into our ritual, we're gettinginto our cycle and checking out.
And then I grab my phone andI'm about to go somewhere, and
then I'm like, wait a second,somebody's gonna know about this
and somebody's gonna ask meabout this.
And it gives me that moment tosay, is this what I really want
to do right now?
And it kind of like hitting aspeed bump on the interstates,
(24:30):
like it kind of shakes me backto reality.
But you're describing what youguys have been working on for
many years now that goes evendeeper than that.
25 years.
Yeah, that goes even deeperthan that, of not only as we're
looking to modify some of thisharmful behavior, but let's
learn what's been causing it inthe first place or contributing
to it in the first place.
(24:51):
Because that's how it's gonnabe more than a band-aid.
That's gonna how they're allthese parts are gonna serve each
other.
And I just really appreciatethat whenever a resource
provider is not just staying onthe surface, but helping people
get underneath the surface.
Because I think that's wherethe real healing happens.
Sam (25:08):
Yeah.
And Greg, we're very specificin how we do this.
We believe in amind-body-spirit model.
All three need healing.
Our body, literally, our brainhas been changed.
It's impacted our spirit withwhat we're thinking, with our
mind of how we've been thinkingand the lies we've been
believing.
So we need to heal all aspectsof that.
(25:29):
So we come at it from a veryChristian scripture point of
view, with understanding thatthe recovery sciences only
bolster what scripture says.
And we want to really helppeople move to a that again,
(25:50):
that deeper understanding.
Admittedly, there have been wewe've heard many reports of
people say, Man, I installedCovenant Eyes, I got an ally.
And that's I have not looked atpornography in a year.
We we get that, we get thoseemails every day.
But at the same time, it it'sdifferent for for individuals,
(26:10):
right?
So, like you said, sometimesthat craving, that desire for
relief, that addiction cyclethat is that is moved, you've
been triggered, you beginrole-playing, you begin thinking
how I'm gonna get there, actingout, then the shame comes, then
(26:33):
it all it reaffirms a beliefsystem that says, see, you can
never live up to what God hasfor you.
Yeah, and it just keeps goingaround in a circle.
Greg (26:40):
That's right.
Sam (26:40):
Well, we want to help people understand that cycle so
they can find the escape rampsoff of it.
Because if I don't do somethingabout that trigger, it is
likely that no wall I build willbe tall enough.
I may not act out on mydevices.
But listen, I've from my home,15 minutes down the road, is a
(27:04):
pornography store right off theinterstate.
Nothing's stopping me fromgoing there.
That's right.
Covenant Ice will not stop mefrom going there.
That's right.
But the commitment that I'velearned, the growth that I'm
taking through understanding,the relationship that I have
with my allies, the place,things that I've put in place
(27:26):
allow me that the boundariesthat I put in place.
I don't go to that store.
Greg (27:30):
Yeah.
And you don't go to that storebecause the boundaries you've
put in place, the resources thatyou use, the therapy you've
received, the spiritual healingthat has taken place in your
life, all those have workedtogether to help you be able to
identify and move towards whatyou really want.
Right.
Which is oh my goodness.
Which is why we call this showthat.
When people are going topornography, I mean, you said
(27:54):
very well what's happening inthe early days with the
curiosity, the early exposure.
But there are people who hadthat curiosity and that early
exposure who did not becomeaddicted.
People who had good, connected,healthy attachment, they had
less than average childhoodtrauma.
(28:14):
They were taught how toregulate their emotions and ask
to have their needs met.
And so as they came to realizethat, hey, pornography is not
giving me anything good, theywere able to walk away from it.
And it didn't have an addictivehold in their lives.
But for the people who do, it'sthat third element that you
mentioned of the trauma.
It feels like it's doing onething, but it's really doing a
(28:35):
lot of other things and it'sharming us while it helps us.
And so all of these things andthe resources that support the
direction we're going, that'sit's all part of the big
picture.
Sam (28:45):
All right, Greg, I love what we really want.
Read the scripture that helpsback that up.
Greg (28:50):
Yeah, it's in Galatians 5 when Paul says, I say, walk by
the spirit, you will not gratifythe desires of the flesh, for
the desires of the flesh areagainst the spirit, and the
desires of the spirit areagainst the flesh, for these are
opposed to each other to keepyou from doing the things you
want to do.
Sam (29:06):
To keep you from doing the things you want to do.
How many times have men andwomen said to themselves, I'm
done with this?
Yeah.
And they've promised themselvesand God and others that they'll
never go back to pornographyagain.
What they truly want is not togo back to pornography, but
(29:29):
they're fighting this war.
A war that is in the flesh.
He says there in the flesh,right?
Literally, our brains have beencompromised to desire
pornography, even when we'vesaid this is not what I want.
Greg (29:44):
Yeah.
It's huge.
And and to answer yourquestion, and I don't think it
was meant to be rhetorical.
I mean, how many times do somepeople say that in a given day?
You know, never again.
God, take this away.
I don't want to do this.
I don't want to do this.
Why can't I stop doing this?
And so to come out ofisolation, to find your people
(30:08):
who are going to be able to givewhat the the 12-steppers who
were leading that marriage groupthat you talked about way back
then offered, which was safety.
You know, there's no way we'regoing to, you know, stick our
head up out of the gopher holeand risk it getting lopped off.
But if we think that it's goingto be safe, then yeah, we're
(30:29):
we're going to maybe dip our toein the pool.
And then if that's honored,then we're going to do it again
and we're going to go a littlebit deeper.
And then by doing that, we'regoing to have the opportunity
for the chaos to settle down andfor us to not only get freedom
from that chaos of what we weredoing, but that gives us clarity
and direction to move in thearea of what we've been
(30:50):
searching for the whole time.
Sam (30:52):
Safe people with a safe place and a safe process.
They all go together.
That's right.
If I don't have a safe place,then I don't really feel that I
can open up with those safepeople, right?
Yeah.
But if it's just a bunch ofchatter, a bunch of talking
about, man, I I messed up againlast night.
Yeah.
(31:12):
And I don't have a process, asafe process leads me to
understanding why I messed uplast night.
Yeah.
And how I can take meaningfulsteps toward freedom day by day,
then I don't really getanywhere.
So we don't we need not only asafe place.
But a safe process.
Greg (31:31):
Okay.
So that's a perfect segue intowhat I wanted to ask you about
from your book.
We need safe people in the safeplaces in the midst of a safe
process.
And where else should be thesafest place on earth to ask for
and receive help on this thanour churches, you know, for
(31:53):
Christians.
I want to quote something thatyou said in your book.
You said most pastors, I'mgoing to pause after those two
words and just say this.
You very kindly said in your inthe chapter of your book where
you're talking to churchleaders, ministry leaders, that
you're not trying to throwanybody under the bus.
Okay.
But we also do want torecognize that there's very
(32:14):
often a difference betweenintent and impact in situations.
And that's what you talk a lotabout in that chapter in your
book.
And you say most pastorsreceive little preparation to
address the legitimate needs ofspouses betrayed by porn
strongholds.
Pastors often rely on personalintuition, discussions within
their spheres, and the generalmarriage books they have read.
(32:36):
And unfortunately, they havebeen misled.
And so, Sam, like I mentioned aminute ago, we would all agree
that the church should feel likeone of the safest places on
earth.
But this one thing makes manypartners of people who struggle
with sexual brokenness feelanything but safe in their own
churches.
Sam (32:57):
Yeah.
And this has happened inchurches that I've that I've
attended as well.
As I was interviewing peopleand families and counselors,
they were telling me story afterstory after story of this sort
of same thing.
Yeah.
And often it is that sex is thefix for pornography.
Yep.
And that's sort of like puttinggas on a fire.
(33:17):
It's just not, it's noteffective.
Sex isn't the problem.
He has or she been looking atpornography since probably
childhood and that has followedthem through adolescence.
Yeah.
They were watching pornographywhen they were dating.
They were watching pornographywhen they proposed.
They were watching pornographyprobably the week of their of
(33:41):
their wedding, you know, wheneverything is supposed to be
wonderful, right?
So when the the spouse saysyes, or when the spouse says no,
it doesn't make any difference.
They're probably still watchingpornography then too.
So it's not that, wow, if theyjust had another orgasm,
suddenly all this would go away.
That's right.
(34:01):
Because they might have beenaccustomed to that multiple
times a day.
Exactly.
Etc.
Greg (34:09):
At the height of my addiction, I mean, there were, I
don't know how many times thatStacy and I had had sex and I
was acting out later that day.
It's not about a deficiency ofsexual release.
It might feel like that for awhile, but once you're addicted,
you kind of get clued in on thefact that there's something
much more powerful going on.
Sam (34:30):
There is something much more powerful going on.
We need to address it.
All right.
Let's stay on, let's stay onthe track we're on for just a
few minutes.
It's one of the reasons Iinvited Dr.
Sherry Keffer to write achapter in the book.
She is probably among the mostforemost knowledgeable
understanding of the impact ofbetrayal with pornography and uh
(34:52):
unwanted sexual behaviors.
So she wrote some beautiful, abeautiful book called Intimate
Deception.
Fantastic book.
And so I invited her to reallyhelp ministry leaders understand
the impact that ongoingpornography use and other things
can have on a spouse and whysex is not the answer.
(35:13):
How does it wound themspecifically, spiritually,
mentally, physically, etc.?
There's a lot going on there.
It's worth the read in thatchapter to read her book.
Yeah.
So I just want to emphasizethat that many of them,
especially women who havediscovered their spouse's
(35:33):
ongoing, not only ongoingpornography use, not just the
discovery of it, but therepeated, oh, I slipped again,
or oh no, I'm not doinganything.
Everything is fine, only tofind out that that's not true at
all.
Many of those women can be adiagnosed with PTSD.
It's just so important.
Greg (35:50):
Over 70%, a lot of the studies show.
And then well-meaning, and andwe're going to give the benefit
of the doubt, okay?
Well-meaning ministry leaderswho they're not trauma informed,
they don't understand this isnot about sex.
Nothing was taught in seminaryabout this.
Maybe there was one electiveclass on marriage in the family,
(36:10):
which just skimmed the surface,if any, if even that.
And so they turn to 1Corinthians 7 and figure, well,
maybe more sex is the solution,maybe lack of sex.
And then you get like thestories in in this chapter in
your book where, you know, awoman's pouring her heart out to
the pastor, and the next dayhis wife and the assistant
pastor's wife come over and theybring her lingerie.
Yeah.
(36:31):
To well be sexier and thenthat'll fix it, which which
suggests that it's your fault inthe first place, because you
obviously weren't being sexualenough.
A pastor.
Sam (36:40):
And then listen, you just need to forgive him and just
move on.
Yeah, just forgive him and moveon.
Greg (36:45):
Sure.
I want to read another thingthat you said in the chapter.
You said, as male leaders inthe church, we've often allowed
our experiences of sexualdesire, rejection, and release
to cloud our judgment and ourresponsibilities, not only as
men, but followers of Christ.
And this has led to a falseequation used widely in many
churches that sex on tap is thesimple answer to many marital
(37:08):
issues, including defeatingpornography use.
And the only thing wrong withthat equation is that it's
completely wrong.
Sam (37:17):
I'm glad you put that in perspective.
Greg (37:19):
And it reminded me, Sam, of something that another Sam
said in a very important bookwhen Sam Jolman released The Sex
Talk You Never Got.
And he really helped people tosee that pornography and
masturbation, acting out, it'snot about arousal so much of the
time.
He said, when men say they needsex, I believe most often they
(37:41):
actually need emotionalregulation.
They need comfort, they needconnection to be soothed, but
they've never been taught aboutthis.
And we have a culture thatpermits men to demand sex, which
allows them to use sex thisway, but you don't have a sex
problem.
You have an emotionalregulation problem that leads to
a sex problem if misunderstood.
That's right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
(38:01):
How did we get here in thechurch?
And how do we get out of here?
How do pastors listening tothis who are like, oh crap, I've
I've given that kind of advice.
What would you say to them?
Sam (38:15):
Well, that's why I wrote the book, right?
The The Healing Church, whatchurches get wrong about
pornography and how to fix it,is not written to the struggler.
It's written to the ministryleader.
I really wanted to help pastorsand ministry leaders understand
the issue well.
Misunderstandings that are verycommon.
And then how they can takemeaningful steps to create safe
(38:36):
places with safe processes intheir communities.
How can they begin doing thiswell?
And it wasn't so much, hey,Sam's got all the answers.
I visited churches that weredoing this work well.
And how are they doing it?
What worked for them?
And how could your church beginto mimic some of the things
they do?
What works in one church isn'tnecessarily going to fit
(38:58):
perfectly in your church.
So there's multiple examples ofhow these churches have
addressed the issue, but thecommon theme is safe place, safe
process.
Greg (39:10):
So people who have been harmed by their spiritual
caregivers, people who tried toask for help and went to their
pastor and got the maybe youneed to be more sexually
available, maybe you know youshould spice it up a little bit,
who are very understandablywounded by that, re-traumatized
(39:33):
by that.
It's a form of spiritual abuse,and they are sitting in a place
of, well, I learned my lesson,I'll never do that again.
That's not the solution either.
And so, so when the people inthe place with the process who
were supposed to be safeweren't, how do people who have
(39:53):
been harmed by that findmotivation to give it another
try?
Wow.
Sam (39:58):
Yeah, that's hard, isn't it?
How hard is it to, man?
I have gone to my ministryleaders and I I was hurt more.
I think we have to understandthat one, there are really good
resources available through anorganization called APSATS: A
P-S-A-T-S.
Find them.
(40:19):
Uh Dr.
Barbara Stephens has she was arecent guest on the show.
Fantastic.
Link to some of her resourcesthere.
Again, intimate deception fromDr.
Sherry Keffer will really helpyou understand what should have
been offered that wasn't.
And that there are manyministry leaders who have begun
(40:39):
looking at this very, very welloutside their often outside
their denominations, etc.
Because in my 19 years atCovenant Eyes, visiting,
attending conferences fordenominations and ministry
leaders over and over again, theopportunities for training for
that they've received is just sominimal.
(40:59):
And only recently haveseminaries begun to address this
issue as well.
So there's some there's somereal change and movement.
We've created a resource atCovenant Eyes that's a free
resource for pastors andministry leaders called Five
Stones.
I will provide a link for youfor that.
It's a free program, it reallycreates some things.
(41:20):
So right on tap, you haveresources that can help people
in your church.
It includes training forministry leaders, but programs,
a 21-day program for men calledStrive.
It's a video program withlessons and that walk a guy
through his first 21 days ofunderstanding the issue and
(41:41):
beginning taking steps towardfreedom.
We have another one called Risefor Women who are struggling.
We have resources for couples,etc.
So in that five stones program,you as a ministry leader can
receive this free and we'll sendyou a kit that allows you to be
prepared when someone walksinto your office and says, I'm
(42:04):
struggling, pastor, and I don'tknow where to go.
And so you've got some toolsright at your fingertips.
The amount of work and and timecommitments that pastors are
under, the strain that they'reunder, the diverse things that
they need to address, man, it isoverwhelming for them.
(42:25):
Yeah.
And so we want to createresources that can equip and
help them.
That's why we created thehealing church, but churches get
wrong about pornography and howto fix it, as well as the
resources from Five Stones.
Greg (42:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I if I could just kindof step in boldly and speak to
those people who might belistening who have undergone
this kind of harm, I wouldn'twant any part of our
conversation to make it soundlike that was okay, what
happened.
Sam (42:52):
No.
Greg (42:52):
If you asked for help and you didn't get it, and not only
did you not get help, but yougot more wounding.
But I would invite you toconsider what if that wasn't
Jesus or his heart?
Because a lot of times thepeople who represent Jesus in
our lives, we forget that theyare flawed people and that they
don't represent him the way thatis true of his character.
(43:14):
And so I would just invite youto think, what would it be like
to not throw the baby out withthe bathwater, to not say that
because you got bad and abusiveand harmful advice from someone
who speaks for the Lord, to saythat that was from the Lord and
to abandon the whole thing.
Now, maybe the time will comeif you express that harm and
(43:36):
it's not listened to and itfalls on deaf ears, you may feel
like, I need to find a saferplace and a safer person because
this process has not been safe.
And and I I don't ever tellpeople right off the bat, go go
to a different church, becauseit could be that there's a real
opportunity for your leaders tolearn and grow and repent of the
harm.
But if you've really hung inthere and you found that it's
(43:58):
not changing and it's notimproving, then there's always
that option of not abandoningfaith, but going to a place
that's going to be safer.
Sam (44:06):
I cannot tell you the number of people that have said,
you know, I got a copy of thehealing church and gave it to my
pastor.
And then that pastor's saying,I didn't know this.
Greg (44:14):
Yeah.
Sam (44:15):
And so thank you for bringing us back full circle
there because it is importantnot to give up.
It's important to recognizethat people don't know what they
don't know.
Good intentions.
Thought they were doing theright thing, but that wasn't
quite the right answer.
I have you ever not had theright answer to something and
(44:35):
that you spat out anyway.
So many times.
Right?
That's gotten me so many, somuch trouble over the years.
Yeah, but we also need to behumble enough to say the way I
reacted or the thing that I saidor what I believed wasn't quite
right.
Greg (44:53):
I was wrong.
Sam (44:54):
Not quite right.
I was wrong.
Let's step into that again.
That is the rupture and repair.
That's it.
We we have not only rupture andrepair in our own lives, we
have rupture and repair in ourrelationships, we have rupture
and repair in in ministry.
Greg (45:12):
And talk about something that will make it a healing
church is having leaders who arewilling to do that.
And and the difficulty in thatis the same reason it's
difficult for parents to do itwith their kids, because we're
afraid that we're going to losetheir respect.
We're afraid they're going tothink less of us.
But isn't it almost always theopposite that happens?
Sam (45:32):
It's always the opposite that happens.
In fact, often when I've beenspeaking to parents about
talking to children of theirkids about pornography, is if
you're having conversations oryour teen and you don't know the
answer, or your child and youdon't know the answer, just say,
you know, I don't know theanswer to that, but let me find
out.
And it it's the opposite ofbeing like, well, mom and dad
(45:54):
don't have all the answers.
Greg (45:55):
Well, saying I don't.
People don't mind you saying, Idon't know, as long as you're
honest.
And then in many cases, as longas you're willing to find out.
And whether you're a parent orup, you know, in in your
workplace or in the church.
I think that people'sappreciation and being drawn to
honest, authentic leaders issomething that we often I think
(46:20):
we undervalue and we we we sellit short, but it's it's huge.
Because don't we all know thatwe've got our stuff?
You know, we've got our stuff.
Well, I really hope thatleaders who are listening will
hear the love and the kindnessand the appreciation for how
(46:40):
hard we know the work that theydo is.
And just an acknowledgementthat sometimes all of us take
something that's reallydifficult and we make it even
more difficult by trying to doit all on our own, by being
unaware of the resources thatare out there.
And so I just really appreciatethe fact that you guys and you
particularly, Sam, understoodwith clarity a lot of the things
(47:02):
that were lacking in theinformedness of those who are
leaders in ministry.
And you did something about it.
And I just would encourage asstrongly as I can, people who
are in ministry leadership, toget a copy of the Healing Church
and just read it with an openheart and open mind and to say,
wow, I'm really encouragedbecause we're doing that part
(47:23):
really well.
Or, hey, I'm challenged becausewe're not doing that part
really well.
And just let it change and honethe direction of how we lead
people and how we serve themthat way.
Sam (47:33):
Thank you.
You know, I I really did writethe book with empathy for
ministry leaders.
I had been asked to speak at aministry conference.
And at that ministryconference, you know, the uh
guys came, the leaders came outof the session and goes, I never
thought about pornography andthese issues in this way.
And and I thought, you know, Ijust scratched the surface.
(47:57):
That's all I can do in 40, 40minutes.
My goodness.
So I really wanted to create.
That's when I got on a planeand on the flight home, sketched
out the book and wrote it.
Wanted to really writesomething that had empathy for
the ministry leader that helpedthem understand the issue well
and how they could address itwell in the church.
Greg (48:17):
And I think appropriately challenges them to not ignore it
any longer.
Sam (48:21):
Pornography is undermining every ministry of the local
church, from children'sministries to teen ministries to
adult ministries to marriageministries to senior citizen
ministries.
Greg (48:32):
Yeah.
Sam (48:33):
The average age for first exposure is somewhere between
the ages of eight and ten.
Well, our children are beingexposed to this.
How are we addressing that inthe church?
Our teens are among the mostprolific users of pornography.
That's your teens and yourchurch too.
So we have to address thisbecause as you're teaching, as
you're instructing, as you'reputting together couples'
weekends and teen camps,recognize that pornography is
(48:57):
literally undermining every workthat you're trying to get done.
And it's not enough to just sayfrom the pulpit pornography's
wrong.
Greg (49:03):
Right.
Sam (49:03):
They already know pornography is
wrong. They just don't know how to stop.
Greg (49:05):
And what these resources and messages help leaders do,
one, know that this can beturned around in people's lives.
It can be turned around.
Already have found themselveslost in a wilderness.
They can be led out of it andto find freedom.
And two, this can impact thegeneration of kids coming up to
(49:29):
where for many of them it neverbecomes a stronghold in the
first place.
That's right.
Oh my gosh.
How would that be to havepeople in the age in which we
live who grow into adulthood anddon't ever get mired in
pornography or sexualbrokenness?
Sam (49:46):
And it's possible the audacity to believe that we can
begin changing culture in ourlocal community.
Greg (49:52):
May it be so.
Sam, thank you for carving outan hour to be with me today.
It's it's been a real blessingto talk to you.
Sam (49:59):
Greg, thank you so much for having me.
Look forward to having anotherconversation like this.
Greg (50:03):
Yeah, let's do it.
I'm gonna make sure that peoplehave all of the links to take
advantage of the many greatresources from Covenant Eyes,
including your book.
Thanks for joining us today.
God bless you.
Thank you so much.
Bye.
Is that a Star Wars lunchbox on the shelf above you?
Sam (00:04):
It is a Star Wars lunchbox.
Greg (00:06):
That's awesome. That's incredible.
Sam (00:08):
Down below, I have my Darth Vader over here and then
Mandalorian helmet.
Greg (00:17):
Oh my gosh... You're like a full-on nerd.
Speaker (00:21):
Welcome to What We Really Want.
Conversations about connection.
Settle in and get ready for agreat conversation.
Let's talk about what we reallywant.
Greg (00:34):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of What
We Really Want.
Today is episode 51.
It's called Safe People, SafePlaces, Safe Process.
And our guest is Sam Black.
Sam is the director of recoveryeducation at Covenant Eyes, a
company that's been around for aquarter century, and they exist
(00:54):
to help people overcomepornography and be restored and
transformed.
Almost 2 million people haveutilized their tools and
resources in an effort to rejectpornography, realizing that
it's an unhealthy presence intheir lives and to seek to live
whole and live lives ofintegrity.
Sam has been with Covenant Eyesfor 19 of those 25 years.
(01:17):
It's been really cool for me tosee the trajectory that
Covenant Eyes has had in theirgrowth, more than just being a
tool that people put on theirphones and their computers and
their other devices todiscourage them from looking at
porn.
Covenant Eyes has become acommunity.
They have tons of resources.
They have tons of informationto help people understand not
(01:39):
only how to say no to and walkaway from pornography, but also
to realize what's underneath it,how to pursue and move toward
the healthy things in life andnot just away from the unhealthy
things.
There's so much resonancebetween how we look at the
problem of pornography and thesolutions for it and the way
that they do.
And so it was just really greatto have a conversation.
(02:00):
I've known Sam, I think atleast 10 years.
We have bumped into each otherseveral times at different
events.
It was great to get to see Samback in September when we were
at the American Association forChristian Counselors World
Conference.
And I was able to catch up withSam there and tell him how much
I'd like to have him on thepodcast, particularly to talk
(02:20):
about a book that he wrote acouple of years ago called The
Healing Church (02:23):
What Churches Get Wrong About Pornography and
How to Fix It.
This is a resource that's alittle bit off the regular
beaten path in the area ofpornography, unwanted sexual
behavior, and recovery from it.
Instead of being written forthe person who's struggling,
this is written for people wholead church and faith
(02:44):
environments where these peoplelive.
And so this is for the pastor,this is for the ministry leader,
because there's a lot of thingsthat historically the church
has gotten wrong about how weaddress porn and sexual
brokenness.
Thankfully, we can see a lotmore things trending in a
healthier direction, but there'sstill a lot that we have to
learn.
And Sam wrote this book in2023, The Healing Church, in an
(03:06):
effort to give a lot of insight,information, encouragement to
people who are in ministrypositions, because let's face
it, people who are serving inministry leadership have not
received enough training inorder to be effectively
trauma-informed and understandaddiction and understand
recovery.
All the things that the peoplein their churches are going
(03:29):
through in droves.
There are people who areworking to help fill those gaps,
and Sam's one of them.
I didn't know until we startedtalking how much of a Star Wars
fan Sam is, like me, so that wasfun.
But you'll just love his heartand you'll really hear his
desire not only for the good forpeople who are seeking to
recover, but also for the peoplewho are the helpers, who are
(03:50):
the spiritual leaders.
It's episode 51.
Our guest is Sam Black.
It's called Safe People, SafePlaces, Safe Process.
And it starts right now.
Sam Black, welcome to What WeReally Want.
Hey, Greg, it's always good totalk with you.
Sam (04:05):
We we just uh saw each other at the AECC conference in
Nashville, and I'm glad we getto continue our conversations.
Greg (04:12):
Me too.
At the time we're recordingthis, I think it's been about
four or five weeks since we saweach other in Nashville.
And gosh, I think before that,it had been maybe eight or nine
years since we'd seen each otherin person.
Was it that long?
I think it might have been theset-free summit in North
Carolina, which was back in2016.
Sam (04:33):
That was 2016.
That's right.
But then you and I and NateLarkin and others were at the
conference, the men's conferencein Alabama.
Greg (04:42):
That's right.
Yeah, the uh Ironworks men'sconference down in Andalusia.
Yeah, we've got some goodfriends down in Andalusia.
I had forgotten about that one.
And you were doing music there,right?
Yeah, yeah.
My good friend Michael Adlerput a band together and asked me
to come play keys.
So good memory, better thanmine.
Well, Sam, I'm looking forwardto talking with you about a lot
(05:02):
of things.
But before we get to anything,let me just ask you right off
the bat, what do you really wantout of our conversation?
Sam (05:08):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I love I love that you startoff the show of it that way.
And I think the two things thatI would hope for most is for
empathy and action.
And that can come in in anumber of ways.
Yeah.
But it might be that you needto have some empathy for
yourself as you're listening,you know, to understand, man, I
(05:29):
got set up for this probably ata very young age, but I need to
take some action to restorewhat's been lost.
It might be that you're aleader or a pastor in your
church, and maybe this doesn'treally has never been your
issue, and I don't reallyunderstand why someone would
struggle so intently withpornography.
(05:51):
So understanding more about itcan create empathy, but then
also lead to action that setspeople free from their bonds.
Greg (05:59):
I love that.
And I love your use of thosetwo things together because
empathy without action feelsgreat, but doesn't really help
lead us out of the stuckness.
And action without empathy canfeel like it's got all the
tenderness of a sledgehammer.
Sam (06:17):
And honestly, neither one work.
You can have all the oh man, Ithat stinks that I'm here, but
oh well, I'll I'll just tryharder.
And and that never works.
And then, hey, you just need toquit that.
Don't do that.
God's not for that doesn't helpeither.
So how can we how can wecombine the two and really make
(06:40):
meaningful change in people'slives?
Greg (06:42):
For all the people who, as you said, were set up for this,
and I was gonna ask you whatyou mean by the this, and then
you said just a life that seemslike it's been just ruled and
and and controlled bypornography.
Sam (06:54):
You know, there's a con we we've seen this over and over
again, and and some of yourlisteners who who tune in a lot
probably have got, yep, I knowthis.
And others who don't haven't,maybe this will be the first
time you've heard this.
But there is a common formulafor people who find themselves
trapped in pornography, right?
It's that early exposure, theongoing use and repetition of
(07:17):
use of pornography, and oftensome trauma and some pain.
Typically happens at a youngage, but can happen otherwise.
I was 10 years old when I firstsaw pornography.
We were talking earlier aboutthe year Star Wars came out in
1977, right?
Yeah, that was also the sameyear that I saw pornography for
the first time.
And I can remember walking outof my home in Florida, and my
(07:39):
brother, who is 10 years olderthan me, and he and his friend
were leaning against a carlooking at a magazine, but
looking at it sideways, and thatdidn't make any sense.
How can you read sideways?
And I asked, but I sure didn'tsee curiosity, right?
Totally innocent curiosity,yes, right?
Yeah, and then they turned itaround, same curiosity at work
(08:02):
that was natural in me, right?
Right.
That instead of looking away, Istepped forward.
Sure, you did.
Yeah.
Now I just told you a storyabout the first time I saw
pornography, and I can't tellyou anything else about that
day.
And that is so common in the pstories of people who find
themselves trapped today.
(08:22):
Yeah, if they think about it,they can go, I have a memory of
being exposed to pornography.
It's an imprintation, and itit's uh it's a hyper stimulus,
and what I saw was a magazine,right?
Greg (08:36):
Nothing like what they're exposed to today.
Sam (08:38):
It's so much worse today, right?
So much more impactful.
That super stimulus was justand I was never prepared for it.
I grew up in a Christian home,but also very an isolated kind
of let's not, we don't talkabout those kinds of things,
right?
So I got set up.
I got set up on a day that Inever anticipated that that's
(09:02):
the day that would change someof the trajectory in my life, a
big part of my life, right?
Greg (09:08):
Gosh, I'm just I'm still thinking about how substantial
1977 was in your life.
I mean, there were two majorthings that were life-changing,
right?
I mean, not to not to makelight uh of or to elevate
unnecessarily, but being a kidand seeing just the masterpiece
(09:30):
of new, you know, motion picturetechnology that Star Wars was,
that changed your life as a boy.
And so did seeing thatcenterfold.
That just struck me.
I mean, two very differentthings that made uh a lifelong
impression.
Sam (09:44):
Absolutely.
I also came from, though it wasa Christian home, it was a
hypocritically violent home.
And so my father grew up withabuse, his father grew up with
abuse, and the cycle hascontinued for generations.
So I really had someopportunities to understand that
(10:05):
I could have continued thatcycle.
But nonetheless, where thatabuse came in of hitting,
yelling, name-calling, thosekinds of things, things that I
should have received that Ididn't, pornography became an
escape.
And I didn't even realizethat's what I was doing.
(10:28):
I had a friend, and his dad hadpornography that was falling
out of his closet.
If you imagine your normalbasic closet with, you know,
you've got the folding doorsthat open and there's a shelf up
top, it looked a lot like awaterfall.
There were stacks ofpornography that were like
flowing over and a pile of it onthe floor.
And I could take anything Iwanted, and I did.
(10:49):
And when I felt angry andfrustrated or bullied or sad or
depressed, or I'm not worthy, orall these other things, the
pornography could create thisescape where I didn't have to
feel that.
I could numb out, I could feelelation, and that's what we
often miss in the church today.
(11:11):
That formula of early exposure,some ongoing use through
adolescence, and some using thatnot just because it feels good,
but because it provides a meansof escape from the things that
I don't want to feel.
Greg (11:26):
Well, see, you've named that so well.
Before we hit record, you weretelling me that since your book
came out that we'll talk aboutsoon, you've done about 200 of
these interviews.
And so you talk about this alot.
So it's not surprising that youwould have a very eloquent and
concise way of describing thisis what was going on.
(11:47):
The thing that strikes me isyou knew none of that when you
were 10.
You know, you didn't said Ididn't realize what I was doing,
but something in you knew thisis it, right?
There was something instinctivethat was happening, no words,
but like whatever's off,whatever feels bad, this is the
(12:11):
thing that's going to take careof that.
You know, this always and thestrategy was born.
Sam (12:17):
Yeah.
You know, children have anamazing capacity to survive.
Yeah, they do.
To to get through whateverthey're going through, whether
it's bullying or abuse orneglect, uh, maybe they come
from a really good family.
They don't they didn'texperience what I experienced,
but there's ways and things thatthey don't really know how to
(12:41):
deal with.
And man, this feels good.
And whatever I'm feeling alittle down, it I'm just running
to hear if I feel bored orfrustrated, whatever it is.
These triggers vary for people.
We all have wounds, regardlessof where we come from.
And we have to understand thosewounds, we have to think about
(13:02):
those.
Why do I do what I do when Isay I don't want to do it?
Yeah.
This is Paul speaking, right?
Greg (13:09):
And that's the Romans 7 dilemma that so many of us can
relate to.
Sam (13:13):
Right.
And so I I think if we bearinto it a little bit, we can
begin to understand more aboutwhy we do it, and then take
steps to mitigate that.
That when I feel angry orfrustrated, or do I need to
self-medicate with food orshopping or or work or exercise
(13:39):
or alcohol or drugs or somethingelse or pornography?
How can I learn to sit withthat emotion?
Maybe call up my friend Gregand say, hey man, this is what
I'm feeling today.
Yeah.
This is what I'm thinkingabout.
Greg (13:54):
Well, and what and and so many people don't do that.
A, because some of them don'teven think of that as an option
because it was never modeled, itwas never taught.
But the ones that do think ofit, there's a fear, there's a
terror, all the things thatcould go wrong if I let somebody
else in on this that keeps themfrom doing something that
(14:14):
inside they but they probablydesperately want to do.
Sam (14:18):
If you really knew me, would you really love me?
Greg (14:21):
Right.
And the assumption is probablynot- you would accept me.
Probably not.
Sam (14:24):
Yeah.
And we've often learned thatbecause you know I was a great
performer.
I was the golden child in myfamily.
There were rebels.
I had four older brothers.
There we had some rebels in ourfamily.
And the rebels are the mosthonest.
They're the ones sayingsomething is terribly wrong
here.
I'm not happy about this, andI'm kicking back.
(14:45):
Yeah.
The golden child comes on theside and says, I can maneuver
through the rules, I canmaneuver through reading the
room to understand when violenceor other things might happen.
I can navigate that well if Ipay attention.
Yeah.
I can put on a show that says,Yep, that's they're doing
(15:07):
exactly what I want them to do.
And that's what I would do.
That's I was a very goodperformer, very good people
pleaser.
And when you get anopportunity, not every, and and
we're gonna go, let me go backto that.
Let's call a friend.
Greg (15:23):
Yeah.
Sam (15:23):
Uh, not everybody needs to know everything about you.
Nope.
But somebody needs to knoweverything about you.
Greg (15:29):
Somebody needs to have all access.
Sam (15:32):
The value of that is that you actually have an opportunity
and a safe person to be fullyknown and fully loved.
Greg (15:40):
Yeah.
Sam (15:40):
To know God's full love for you.
Greg (15:42):
Yeah.
(17:13):
I love some of the languagethat has evolved in this space
in which we work over the years,because everybody almost to a
man who comes into our communitylooking for help with his
sexual compulsion or addiction,unwanted behavior, one of the
first things that he says heneeds is accountability.
And and that And doesn't evenknow what that means.
(17:35):
Well, or he knows what it'smeant to that point.
And that's why his eyes aretwitching, right?
Because his experience withaccountability has been a
dumpster fire because it's just,it's basically the sexual
behavior version of a cuss jar.
It's like if I am honest, I'mgoing to get punished.
And back in 2012, when MichaelKustik wrote Surfing for God, he
(17:56):
talked about the cop coach andcardiologist styles of
accountability.
And he and he said in that bookthat really maybe a better way
of describing it thanaccountability is accessibility.
And that's what you're talkingabout, is giving people access.
And I even love that CovenantEyes over the years has shifted,
at least my perception is y'allhave shifted, and I'm guessing
(18:17):
it was probably intentional, tousing ally terminology more than
accountability partner becausethat's really very intentional.
Yeah, because that's suggestingthat's what we really need.
We need somebody that we see asan ally, a co-laborer, a
co-traveler with us in this, andnot somebody who's standing
over us wagging a finger andjust waiting for us to screw it
(18:38):
up.
Sam (18:38):
An ally has your back.
They know your goals, they wantto see you succeed, they know
your faults, and they're thereto stand with you and thicken
thin.
Greg (18:46):
Yeah.
Well, Sam, 1977 was the yearyou were first exposed to
pornography.
2023 was the year that yourbook, The Healing Church, What
Churches Get Wrong AboutPornography, came out.
And so that's 46 years.
There's a lot of life thathappened in the span between You
(19:07):
make me sound really old.
Well, you're you and I areabout the same age.
Yeah, we're just a couple ofyears apart.
But before we go into anythingspecific from the book, what
were the next four decades likefor you navigating through
pornography and youth andadolescence and young adulthood
and the brokenness that camewith that and led you to what
you're doing now, which isworking with covenant eyes.
(19:29):
And yeah, and do that in just acouple minutes.
Sam (19:34):
Nothing like a great challenge.
Man, I've got to shorten astory and I didn't tell you I
was gonna ask you that.
No.
Pornography followed me throughhigh school to college and into
my marriage.
And I'm among the mostfortunate people you're ever
gonna meet because by this timeI've pretty much become
(19:54):
agnostic.
God's probably there.
I don't think he really caresthat much if he does at all.
Now, listen, I grew up in ahome where the Bible played on
records.
So I can navigate my waythrough the Bible very well.
Literally, I heard it on anongoing basis.
But here I am, and and andstudies show that this ongoing
(20:18):
use of pornography is has adirect relation to prayer life,
scripture reading, whetheryou'll serve in a volunteer role
in your church, and doubtsabout God and and his plan,
proven by a University ofOklahoma study.
I again am probably among themost fortunate people you're
gonna meet because my wife istaking our babies to a local
(20:40):
church.
And she comes to me one day andshe says, Hey, there's a group
that's meeting on marriage, andI think you know we could really
work on our marriage, and I'mlike, Yeah, I know we can do
that.
Would you be willing to go withme to this study?
I said, Yeah, absolutely.
And so we walk into thisclassroom and the facilitators
(21:02):
close the door and they look atthe class with a big smile and
say, This is a safe place.
Greg (21:08):
Wow.
Sam (21:09):
What is said here stays here.
And when we're really honestwith one another and care for
one another, and we're open withone another, then we can really
find healing in ourrelationships.
What?
What this isn't this isn't thechurch I grew up in.
What's going on here?
Right.
Well, it turned out that thesewere 12 steppers that were
(21:30):
facilitating the class, and theyhad gone through addiction and
they knew that the recoveryprocess isn't just for people
who have addictions, it's foreverybody.
That's right.
Like if you want to live abetter life, understand recovery
so you can really bear in, beopen, be honest, get real.
Uh recognize that you need tosubmit to God, that you need to
(21:54):
submit to one another.
Oh my goodness, there are somany beautiful lessons in the
recovery journey for everyone.
Greg (22:01):
Yeah.
Sam (22:01):
And so that was also, though, where I learned that
pornography could be addictive.
And that was a great reliefbecause that meant evolution
didn't make me this way, Goddidn't make me this way.
Wow.
And I didn't have to stay thisway.
And so with some brothers, Igot to take a walk toward
freedom.
And little by little I got ledto covenant eyes.
(22:22):
That's a whole nother story.
But man, I spent my first 18years as a journalist.
And God just says, Sam, I'vegot a plan for that.
You think you have you knowyour ways, but let me show you
what I want to do.
So God just used those talentsto create the healing church,
another book called The PornCircuit.
And just been able to createnow.
(22:44):
I serve as director of recoveryeducation at Covenant Eyes.
We've created 50 differentcourses within the Victory app,
which are all free.
And you can download theVictory app for free.
It's an amazing opportunity tolearn and grow, check in with an
ally.
The tools that's that's in thatapp is just so amazing.
Greg (23:04):
I'm glad that you mentioned your role as recovery
education director, because Ithink that there, well, there's
a criticism or just anuncertainty that I've heard
people communicate over theyears about resources like
Covenant Eyes that do filteringaccountability.
(23:25):
People, if they're taking asurface look at it, might just
kind of consider it a behaviormodification band-aid, right?
And I would, and and I wouldeven say it it definitely could
be that, as could any resource.
I mean, depending on what yourexpectation is, where your heart
is, you could use covenant eyesand say, well, this is going to
(23:46):
keep me from looking at porn.
And I'm like, I guarantee youthat it will not if you are
highly motivated to findpornography.
But I describe tools likecovenant eyes as a speed bump on
the interstate.
You know, it's like it's anopportunity.
Have you ever been driving andkind of gotten hypnotized by the
road and realized that, like,oh my gosh, I don't remember the
last five miles?
(24:07):
And it's kind of that's the thebrain space when we're getting
into our ritual, we're gettinginto our cycle and checking out.
And then I grab my phone andI'm about to go somewhere, and
then I'm like, wait a second,somebody's gonna know about this
and somebody's gonna ask meabout this.
And it gives me that moment tosay, is this what I really want
to do right now?
And it kind of like hitting aspeed bump on the interstates,
(24:30):
like it kind of shakes me backto reality.
But you're describing what youguys have been working on for
many years now that goes evendeeper than that.
25 years.
Yeah, that goes even deeperthan that, of not only as we're
looking to modify some of thisharmful behavior, but let's
learn what's been causing it inthe first place or contributing
to it in the first place.
(24:51):
Because that's how it's gonnabe more than a band-aid.
That's gonna how they're allthese parts are gonna serve each
other.
And I just really appreciatethat whenever a resource
provider is not just staying onthe surface, but helping people
get underneath the surface.
Because I think that's wherethe real healing happens.
Sam (25:08):
Yeah.
And Greg, we're very specificin how we do this.
We believe in amind-body-spirit model.
All three need healing.
Our body, literally, our brainhas been changed.
It's impacted our spirit withwhat we're thinking, with our
mind of how we've been thinkingand the lies we've been
believing.
So we need to heal all aspectsof that.
(25:29):
So we come at it from a veryChristian scripture point of
view, with understanding thatthe recovery sciences only
bolster what scripture says.
And we want to really helppeople move to a that again,
(25:50):
that deeper understanding.
Admittedly, there have been wewe've heard many reports of
people say, Man, I installedCovenant Eyes, I got an ally.
And that's I have not looked atpornography in a year.
We we get that, we get thoseemails every day.
But at the same time, it it'sdifferent for for individuals,
(26:10):
right?
So, like you said, sometimesthat craving, that desire for
relief, that addiction cyclethat is that is moved, you've
been triggered, you beginrole-playing, you begin thinking
how I'm gonna get there, actingout, then the shame comes, then
(26:33):
it all it reaffirms a beliefsystem that says, see, you can
never live up to what God hasfor you.
Yeah, and it just keeps goingaround in a circle.
Greg (26:40):
That's right.
Sam (26:40):
Well, we want to help people understand that cycle so
they can find the escape rampsoff of it.
Because if I don't do somethingabout that trigger, it is
likely that no wall I build willbe tall enough.
I may not act out on mydevices.
But listen, I've from my home,15 minutes down the road, is a
(27:04):
pornography store right off theinterstate.
Nothing's stopping me fromgoing there.
That's right.
Covenant Ice will not stop mefrom going there.
That's right.
But the commitment that I'velearned, the growth that I'm
taking through understanding,the relationship that I have
with my allies, the place,things that I've put in place
(27:26):
allow me that the boundariesthat I put in place.
I don't go to that store.
Greg (27:30):
Yeah.
And you don't go to that storebecause the boundaries you've
put in place, the resources thatyou use, the therapy you've
received, the spiritual healingthat has taken place in your
life, all those have workedtogether to help you be able to
identify and move towards whatyou really want.
Right.
Which is oh my goodness.
Which is why we call this showthat.
When people are going topornography, I mean, you said
(27:54):
very well what's happening inthe early days with the
curiosity, the early exposure.
But there are people who hadthat curiosity and that early
exposure who did not becomeaddicted.
People who had good, connected,healthy attachment, they had
less than average childhoodtrauma.
(28:14):
They were taught how toregulate their emotions and ask
to have their needs met.
And so as they came to realizethat, hey, pornography is not
giving me anything good, theywere able to walk away from it.
And it didn't have an addictivehold in their lives.
But for the people who do, it'sthat third element that you
mentioned of the trauma.
It feels like it's doing onething, but it's really doing a
(28:35):
lot of other things and it'sharming us while it helps us.
And so all of these things andthe resources that support the
direction we're going, that'sit's all part of the big
picture.
Sam (28:45):
All right, Greg, I love what we really want.
Read the scripture that helpsback that up.
Greg (28:50):
Yeah, it's in Galatians 5 when Paul says, I say, walk by
the spirit, you will not gratifythe desires of the flesh, for
the desires of the flesh areagainst the spirit, and the
desires of the spirit areagainst the flesh, for these are
opposed to each other to keepyou from doing the things you
want to do.
Sam (29:06):
To keep you from doing the things you want to do.
How many times have men andwomen said to themselves, I'm
done with this?
Yeah.
And they've promised themselvesand God and others that they'll
never go back to pornographyagain.
What they truly want is not togo back to pornography, but
(29:29):
they're fighting this war.
A war that is in the flesh.
He says there in the flesh,right?
Literally, our brains have beencompromised to desire
pornography, even when we'vesaid this is not what I want.
Greg (29:44):
Yeah.
It's huge.
And and to answer yourquestion, and I don't think it
was meant to be rhetorical.
I mean, how many times do somepeople say that in a given day?
You know, never again.
God, take this away.
I don't want to do this.
I don't want to do this.
Why can't I stop doing this?
And so to come out ofisolation, to find your people
(30:08):
who are going to be able to givewhat the the 12-steppers who
were leading that marriage groupthat you talked about way back
then offered, which was safety.
You know, there's no way we'regoing to, you know, stick our
head up out of the gopher holeand risk it getting lopped off.
But if we think that it's goingto be safe, then yeah, we're
(30:29):
we're going to maybe dip our toein the pool.
And then if that's honored,then we're going to do it again
and we're going to go a littlebit deeper.
And then by doing that, we'regoing to have the opportunity
for the chaos to settle down andfor us to not only get freedom
from that chaos of what we weredoing, but that gives us clarity
and direction to move in thearea of what we've been
(30:50):
searching for the whole time.
Sam (30:52):
Safe people with a safe place and a safe process.
They all go together.
That's right.
If I don't have a safe place,then I don't really feel that I
can open up with those safepeople, right?
Yeah.
But if it's just a bunch ofchatter, a bunch of talking
about, man, I I messed up againlast night.
Yeah.
(31:12):
And I don't have a process, asafe process leads me to
understanding why I messed uplast night.
Yeah.
And how I can take meaningfulsteps toward freedom day by day,
then I don't really getanywhere.
So we don't we need not only asafe place.
But a safe process.
Greg (31:31):
Okay.
So that's a perfect segue intowhat I wanted to ask you about
from your book.
We need safe people in the safeplaces in the midst of a safe
process.
And where else should be thesafest place on earth to ask for
and receive help on this thanour churches, you know, for
(31:53):
Christians.
I want to quote something thatyou said in your book.
You said most pastors, I'mgoing to pause after those two
words and just say this.
You very kindly said in your inthe chapter of your book where
you're talking to churchleaders, ministry leaders, that
you're not trying to throwanybody under the bus.
Okay.
But we also do want torecognize that there's very
(32:14):
often a difference betweenintent and impact in situations.
And that's what you talk a lotabout in that chapter in your
book.
And you say most pastorsreceive little preparation to
address the legitimate needs ofspouses betrayed by porn
strongholds.
Pastors often rely on personalintuition, discussions within
their spheres, and the generalmarriage books they have read.
(32:36):
And unfortunately, they havebeen misled.
And so, Sam, like I mentioned aminute ago, we would all agree
that the church should feel likeone of the safest places on
earth.
But this one thing makes manypartners of people who struggle
with sexual brokenness feelanything but safe in their own
churches.
Sam (32:57):
Yeah.
And this has happened inchurches that I've that I've
attended as well.
As I was interviewing peopleand families and counselors,
they were telling me story afterstory after story of this sort
of same thing.
Yeah.
And often it is that sex is thefix for pornography.
Yep.
And that's sort of like puttinggas on a fire.
(33:17):
It's just not, it's noteffective.
Sex isn't the problem.
He has or she been looking atpornography since probably
childhood and that has followedthem through adolescence.
Yeah.
They were watching pornographywhen they were dating.
They were watching pornographywhen they proposed.
They were watching pornographyprobably the week of their of
(33:41):
their wedding, you know, wheneverything is supposed to be
wonderful, right?
So when the the spouse saysyes, or when the spouse says no,
it doesn't make any difference.
They're probably still watchingpornography then too.
So it's not that, wow, if theyjust had another orgasm,
suddenly all this would go away.
That's right.
(34:01):
Because they might have beenaccustomed to that multiple
times a day.
Exactly.
Etc.
Greg (34:09):
At the height of my addiction, I mean, there were, I
don't know how many times thatStacy and I had had sex and I
was acting out later that day.
It's not about a deficiency ofsexual release.
It might feel like that for awhile, but once you're addicted,
you kind of get clued in on thefact that there's something
much more powerful going on.
Sam (34:30):
There is something much more powerful going on.
We need to address it.
All right.
Let's stay on, let's stay onthe track we're on for just a
few minutes.
It's one of the reasons Iinvited Dr.
Sherry Keffer to write achapter in the book.
She is probably among the mostforemost knowledgeable
understanding of the impact ofbetrayal with pornography and uh
(34:52):
unwanted sexual behaviors.
So she wrote some beautiful, abeautiful book called Intimate
Deception.
Fantastic book.
And so I invited her to reallyhelp ministry leaders understand
the impact that ongoingpornography use and other things
can have on a spouse and whysex is not the answer.
(35:13):
How does it wound themspecifically, spiritually,
mentally, physically, etc.?
There's a lot going on there.
It's worth the read in thatchapter to read her book.
Yeah.
So I just want to emphasizethat that many of them,
especially women who havediscovered their spouse's
(35:33):
ongoing, not only ongoingpornography use, not just the
discovery of it, but therepeated, oh, I slipped again,
or oh no, I'm not doinganything.
Everything is fine, only tofind out that that's not true at
all.
Many of those women can be adiagnosed with PTSD.
It's just so important.
Greg (35:50):
Over 70%, a lot of the studies show.
And then well-meaning, and andwe're going to give the benefit
of the doubt, okay?
Well-meaning ministry leaderswho they're not trauma informed,
they don't understand this isnot about sex.
Nothing was taught in seminaryabout this.
Maybe there was one electiveclass on marriage in the family,
(36:10):
which just skimmed the surface,if any, if even that.
And so they turn to 1Corinthians 7 and figure, well,
maybe more sex is the solution,maybe lack of sex.
And then you get like thestories in in this chapter in
your book where, you know, awoman's pouring her heart out to
the pastor, and the next dayhis wife and the assistant
pastor's wife come over and theybring her lingerie.
Yeah.
(36:31):
To well be sexier and thenthat'll fix it, which which
suggests that it's your fault inthe first place, because you
obviously weren't being sexualenough.
A pastor.
Sam (36:40):
And then listen, you just need to forgive him and just
move on.
Yeah, just forgive him and moveon.
Greg (36:45):
Sure.
I want to read another thingthat you said in the chapter.
You said, as male leaders inthe church, we've often allowed
our experiences of sexualdesire, rejection, and release
to cloud our judgment and ourresponsibilities, not only as
men, but followers of Christ.
And this has led to a falseequation used widely in many
churches that sex on tap is thesimple answer to many marital
(37:08):
issues, including defeatingpornography use.
And the only thing wrong withthat equation is that it's
completely wrong.
Sam (37:17):
I'm glad you put that in perspective.
Greg (37:19):
And it reminded me, Sam, of something that another Sam
said in a very important bookwhen Sam Jolman released The Sex
Talk You Never Got.
And he really helped people tosee that pornography and
masturbation, acting out, it'snot about arousal so much of the
time.
He said, when men say they needsex, I believe most often they
(37:41):
actually need emotionalregulation.
They need comfort, they needconnection to be soothed, but
they've never been taught aboutthis.
And we have a culture thatpermits men to demand sex, which
allows them to use sex thisway, but you don't have a sex
problem.
You have an emotionalregulation problem that leads to
a sex problem if misunderstood.
That's right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
(38:01):
How did we get here in thechurch?
And how do we get out of here?
How do pastors listening tothis who are like, oh crap, I've
I've given that kind of advice.
What would you say to them?
Sam (38:15):
Well, that's why I wrote the book, right?
The The Healing Church, whatchurches get wrong about
pornography and how to fix it,is not written to the struggler.
It's written to the ministryleader.
I really wanted to help pastorsand ministry leaders understand
the issue well.
Misunderstandings that are verycommon.
And then how they can takemeaningful steps to create safe
(38:36):
places with safe processes intheir communities.
How can they begin doing thiswell?
And it wasn't so much, hey,Sam's got all the answers.
I visited churches that weredoing this work well.
And how are they doing it?
What worked for them?
And how could your church beginto mimic some of the things
they do?
What works in one church isn'tnecessarily going to fit
(38:58):
perfectly in your church.
So there's multiple examples ofhow these churches have
addressed the issue, but thecommon theme is safe place, safe
process.
Greg (39:10):
So people who have been harmed by their spiritual
caregivers, people who tried toask for help and went to their
pastor and got the maybe youneed to be more sexually
available, maybe you know youshould spice it up a little bit,
who are very understandablywounded by that, re-traumatized
(39:33):
by that.
It's a form of spiritual abuse,and they are sitting in a place
of, well, I learned my lesson,I'll never do that again.
That's not the solution either.
And so, so when the people inthe place with the process who
were supposed to be safeweren't, how do people who have
(39:53):
been harmed by that findmotivation to give it another
try?
Wow.
Sam (39:58):
Yeah, that's hard, isn't it?
How hard is it to, man?
I have gone to my ministryleaders and I I was hurt more.
I think we have to understandthat one, there are really good
resources available through anorganization called APSATS: A
P-S-A-T-S.
Find them.
(40:19):
Uh Dr.
Barbara Stephens has she was arecent guest on the show.
Fantastic.
Link to some of her resourcesthere.
Again, intimate deception fromDr.
Sherry Keffer will really helpyou understand what should have
been offered that wasn't.
And that there are manyministry leaders who have begun
(40:39):
looking at this very, very welloutside their often outside
their denominations, etc.
Because in my 19 years atCovenant Eyes, visiting,
attending conferences fordenominations and ministry
leaders over and over again, theopportunities for training for
that they've received is just sominimal.
(40:59):
And only recently haveseminaries begun to address this
issue as well.
So there's some there's somereal change and movement.
We've created a resource atCovenant Eyes that's a free
resource for pastors andministry leaders called Five
Stones.
I will provide a link for youfor that.
It's a free program, it reallycreates some things.
(41:20):
So right on tap, you haveresources that can help people
in your church.
It includes training forministry leaders, but programs,
a 21-day program for men calledStrive.
It's a video program withlessons and that walk a guy
through his first 21 days ofunderstanding the issue and
(41:41):
beginning taking steps towardfreedom.
We have another one called Risefor Women who are struggling.
We have resources for couples,etc.
So in that five stones program,you as a ministry leader can
receive this free and we'll sendyou a kit that allows you to be
prepared when someone walksinto your office and says, I'm
(42:04):
struggling, pastor, and I don'tknow where to go.
And so you've got some toolsright at your fingertips.
The amount of work and and timecommitments that pastors are
under, the strain that they'reunder, the diverse things that
they need to address, man, it isoverwhelming for them.
(42:25):
Yeah.
And so we want to createresources that can equip and
help them.
That's why we created thehealing church, but churches get
wrong about pornography and howto fix it, as well as the
resources from Five Stones.
Greg (42:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I if I could just kindof step in boldly and speak to
those people who might belistening who have undergone
this kind of harm, I wouldn'twant any part of our
conversation to make it soundlike that was okay, what
happened.
Sam (42:52):
No.
Greg (42:52):
If you asked for help and you didn't get it, and not only
did you not get help, but yougot more wounding.
But I would invite you toconsider what if that wasn't
Jesus or his heart?
Because a lot of times thepeople who represent Jesus in
our lives, we forget that theyare flawed people and that they
don't represent him the way thatis true of his character.
(43:14):
And so I would just invite youto think, what would it be like
to not throw the baby out withthe bathwater, to not say that
because you got bad and abusiveand harmful advice from someone
who speaks for the Lord, to saythat that was from the Lord and
to abandon the whole thing.
Now, maybe the time will comeif you express that harm and
(43:36):
it's not listened to and itfalls on deaf ears, you may feel
like, I need to find a saferplace and a safer person because
this process has not been safe.
And and I I don't ever tellpeople right off the bat, go go
to a different church, becauseit could be that there's a real
opportunity for your leaders tolearn and grow and repent of the
harm.
But if you've really hung inthere and you found that it's
(43:58):
not changing and it's notimproving, then there's always
that option of not abandoningfaith, but going to a place
that's going to be safer.
Sam (44:06):
I cannot tell you the number of people that have said,
you know, I got a copy of thehealing church and gave it to my
pastor.
And then that pastor's saying,I didn't know this.
Greg (44:14):
Yeah.
Sam (44:15):
And so thank you for bringing us back full circle
there because it is importantnot to give up.
It's important to recognizethat people don't know what they
don't know.
Good intentions.
Thought they were doing theright thing, but that wasn't
quite the right answer.
I have you ever not had theright answer to something and
(44:35):
that you spat out anyway.
So many times.
Right?
That's gotten me so many, somuch trouble over the years.
Yeah, but we also need to behumble enough to say the way I
reacted or the thing that I saidor what I believed wasn't quite
right.
Greg (44:53):
I was wrong.
Sam (44:54):
Not quite right.
I was wrong.
Let's step into that again.
That is the rupture and repair.
That's it.
We we have not only rupture andrepair in our own lives, we
have rupture and repair in ourrelationships, we have rupture
and repair in in ministry.
Greg (45:12):
And talk about something that will make it a healing
church is having leaders who arewilling to do that.
And and the difficulty in thatis the same reason it's
difficult for parents to do itwith their kids, because we're
afraid that we're going to losetheir respect.
We're afraid they're going tothink less of us.
But isn't it almost always theopposite that happens?
Sam (45:32):
It's always the opposite that happens.
In fact, often when I've beenspeaking to parents about
talking to children of theirkids about pornography, is if
you're having conversations oryour teen and you don't know the
answer, or your child and youdon't know the answer, just say,
you know, I don't know theanswer to that, but let me find
out.
And it it's the opposite ofbeing like, well, mom and dad
(45:54):
don't have all the answers.
Greg (45:55):
Well, saying I don't.
People don't mind you saying, Idon't know, as long as you're
honest.
And then in many cases, as longas you're willing to find out.
And whether you're a parent orup, you know, in in your
workplace or in the church.
I think that people'sappreciation and being drawn to
honest, authentic leaders issomething that we often I think
(46:20):
we undervalue and we we we sellit short, but it's it's huge.
Because don't we all know thatwe've got our stuff?
You know, we've got our stuff.
Well, I really hope thatleaders who are listening will
hear the love and the kindnessand the appreciation for how
(46:40):
hard we know the work that theydo is.
And just an acknowledgementthat sometimes all of us take
something that's reallydifficult and we make it even
more difficult by trying to doit all on our own, by being
unaware of the resources thatare out there.
And so I just really appreciatethe fact that you guys and you
particularly, Sam, understoodwith clarity a lot of the things
(47:02):
that were lacking in theinformedness of those who are
leaders in ministry.
And you did something about it.
And I just would encourage asstrongly as I can, people who
are in ministry leadership, toget a copy of the Healing Church
and just read it with an openheart and open mind and to say,
wow, I'm really encouragedbecause we're doing that part
(47:23):
really well.
Or, hey, I'm challenged becausewe're not doing that part
really well.
And just let it change and honethe direction of how we lead
people and how we serve themthat way.
Sam (47:33):
Thank you.
You know, I I really did writethe book with empathy for
ministry leaders.
I had been asked to speak at aministry conference.
And at that ministryconference, you know, the uh
guys came, the leaders came outof the session and goes, I never
thought about pornography andthese issues in this way.
And and I thought, you know, Ijust scratched the surface.
(47:57):
That's all I can do in 40, 40minutes.
My goodness.
So I really wanted to create.
That's when I got on a planeand on the flight home, sketched
out the book and wrote it.
Wanted to really writesomething that had empathy for
the ministry leader that helpedthem understand the issue well
and how they could address itwell in the church.
Greg (48:17):
And I think appropriately challenges them to not ignore it
any longer.
Sam (48:21):
Pornography is undermining every ministry of the local
church, from children'sministries to teen ministries to
adult ministries to marriageministries to senior citizen
ministries.
Greg (48:32):
Yeah.
Sam (48:33):
The average age for first exposure is somewhere between
the ages of eight and ten.
Well, our children are beingexposed to this.
How are we addressing that inthe church?
Our teens are among the mostprolific users of pornography.
That's your teens and yourchurch too.
So we have to address thisbecause as you're teaching, as
you're instructing, as you'reputting together couples'
weekends and teen camps,recognize that pornography is
(48:57):
literally undermining every workthat you're trying to get done.
And it's not enough to just sayfrom the pulpit pornography's
wrong.
Greg (49:03):
Right.
Sam (49:03):
They already know pornography is
wrong. They just don't know how to stop.
Greg (49:05):
And what these resources and messages help leaders do,
one, know that this can beturned around in people's lives.
It can be turned around.
Already have found themselveslost in a wilderness.
They can be led out of it andto find freedom.
And two, this can impact thegeneration of kids coming up to
(49:29):
where for many of them it neverbecomes a stronghold in the
first place.
That's right.
Oh my gosh.
How would that be to havepeople in the age in which we
live who grow into adulthood anddon't ever get mired in
pornography or sexualbrokenness?
Sam (49:46):
And it's possible the audacity to believe that we can
begin changing culture in ourlocal community.
Greg (49:52):
May it be so.
Sam, thank you for carving outan hour to be with me today.
It's it's been a real blessingto talk to you.
Sam (49:59):
Greg, thank you so much for having me.
Look forward to having anotherconversation like this.
Greg (50:03):
Yeah, let's do it.
I'm gonna make sure that peoplehave all of the links to take
advantage of the many greatresources from Covenant Eyes,
including your book.
Thanks for joining us today.
God bless you.
Thank you so much.
Bye.
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