December 2, 2025 • 44 mins
"Send us a message! (questions, feedback, etc.)"
It's December, and just like last year, we're giving you something extra for the holidays. Each week in December we'll release a new episode for you to enjoy! Please remember to follow/subscribe to the show, write a positive review, and share us with others. ALSO, if the show means something to you, please consider a financial gift to help us continue! (Link to give below)
For the first December episode, we caught up with a friend who is both a therapist and a lover of Christmas! Thaddeus Heffner lives in Franklin TN, and has been practicing therapy there since 2009. Many of Thaddeus' clients are people who have also connected with Awaken.
In addition to helping people, Thaddeus loves Christmas and he loves his community. A few years ago he and a friend started a Christmas tradition connected to the lighting of the Franklin Christmas tree. It has grown into something the people of Franklin look forward to each year. Thaddeus has even written a children's book about the tradition.
We talk about Christmas, we talk about therapy, we talk about walking with people as they heal, grow, and begin to take agency and ownership over their own process. It's a rich conversation and we hope you'll be encouraged by it.
Merry Christmas!
#thaddeusheffner #franklinchristmastree #christmastraditions #beersandcheers #therapy #agency #trauma #healing #addiction #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation
Franklin Christmas Tree Facebook page
The First Franklin Christmas Tree book (Amazon)
Thaddeus Heffner’s therapist website
Make a donation to Awaken (Thank you!)
Awaken website
Roots Retreat Men's Intensive
Roots Retreat Women's Workshop
Awaken Men & Women's support meeting info (including virtual)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Thaddeus (00:01):
We never thought about how it might affect people in
those ways.
So it's wonderful to be part ofsomething bigger than we never
meant it to be.
Announcer (00:11):
Welcome to What We Really Want.
Conversations about connection.
Settle in and get ready for agreat conversation.
Let's talk about what we reallywant.
Greg (00:23):
Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of What We
Really Want.
Today is episode 52.
It's called Christmas Trees andTherapy.
And we're going to talk aboutthe episode more in just a
minute.
But first, I wanted to take aminute and just check in with
you on a couple of things.
We're approaching the holidays,and just like we did last year,
we are going to give you alittle gift this year by
(00:45):
releasing a new episode everyTuesday in December.
Normally we release every otherTuesday, but you can come back
each week this month and get anew episode.
And so we hope that you reallyenjoy that and that helps your
uh season be a little bitbrighter and jollier.
We would ask, please subscribeto or follow the podcast.
And then go an extra step.
(01:07):
We would love for you to writea positive review that really
helps the word get out.
And then consider sharing aboutus on social media.
When you see us post aboutepisodes when they come out,
just go ahead and share thosejust to help more people find
out about the conversations thatwe're having.
One more thing before we get totalking about our episode.
Many of you who've beenlistening for a while know that
(01:28):
what we really want is anoffering of a nonprofit that
Stacy and I started 10 years agocalled Awaken.
Awaken exists for the purposeof helping people live the lives
they were meant to live, freefrom the destruction of unwanted
or addictive sexual behaviorand the wounds of sexual
betrayal trauma.
That's our story, and that's astory that we walk with a lot of
(01:49):
people who are going throughthat in their healing and their
recovery.
And we're really excited thatthis show has been a way that a
lot of people have found outabout us and connected with us
in many ways.
We realize that at this time ofthe year, you're probably
getting inundated with requestsfrom different charities and
nonprofits, just letting youknow what the needs are.
I'm going to keep this reallybrief and just let you know that
(02:11):
Awaken is a nonprofit.
We are supported almostexclusively by the gifts of
individuals and organizations.
And if Awaken, and specificallyif what we really want, has
been impactful for you, if ithas helped you in any way, we
would just ask you to considersending us a little bit of
support before the end of theyear.
Just go to awakenrecovery.comat the top of the page, click
(02:34):
where it says donate, and wewould be so grateful for any
gift that you would considergiving us before the end of the
year.
So thanks for hearing that, andthank you for being a faithful
listener.
Now let's talk about theepisode that's coming up right
now.
This is episode 52.
Our guest is Thaddeus Hefner,and it's called Christmas Trees
in Therapy.
(02:54):
Thaddeus is a therapist inFranklin, Tennessee.
I first heard Thaddeus' namefrom other people that I knew in
recovery who lived in theNashville area who just said he
was fantastic, empathetic, justa super person to work with for
people who are in recovery fromaddictive or unwanted sexual
behavior.
That's not the only type ofclient that he has, but there
(03:15):
are a lot of people who fit thatdescription who have found and
worked with Thaddeus.
And so we wanted to have aconversation just about his work
with clients and what it lookslike when someone who comes in
stuck gets unstuck and what itwas like for him when he went
into therapy, finding outsometimes that it seemed like he
was working harder than theclient and just allowing time
(03:38):
for God and the client to workon showing up with what we call
agency or taking ownership foryour process of healing and
recovery.
So we talk about that, butbefore that comes up in the
conversation, we have kind of afun and timely uh topic that we
discussed.
There's something that Thaddeushas sort of launched as a
(03:59):
tradition in Franklin,Tennessee, and that is the
annual planting of the Christmaspine cone.
And you'll hear us talk aboutthat.
He started this with a friend,I think, gosh, I can't remember
now how many years ago, six orseven years ago.
It has grown into somethingthat people are looking forward
to each year.
He's even written a children'sbook about the Franklin
(04:20):
Christmas tree.
And so that's a lot of fun justhearing him talk about how much
he loves the holidays and howit has really allowed him to
connect more deeply with hiscommunity through this new
tradition.
So we talk about Christmastrees, we talk about therapy,
and it's just a greatconversation catching up with an
old friend.
We really hope that you enjoyit.
It's episode 52.
It's called Christmas Trees andTherapy.
(04:41):
Our guest is Thaddeus Hefner,and the conversation starts
right now.
Thaddeus Hefner, it's great tosee you.
It's been a while.
Thanks for being on What WeReally Want.
Thaddeus (04:51):
Oh, thanks for having me, Greg.
It's good to be here with youtoday.
Greg (04:54):
I'm trying to think back to how long I've known you
because I've known of you forprobably twelve or more years,
but I I think I've probablyknown you for more like six or
seven.
And I'm just I've been lookingforward to getting to catch up
and chat with you today.
So this is gonna be fun.
Thaddeus (05:11):
Thank you.
Yeah, it has been two years, Ithink, since we've last seen
each other.
So this is this is great to bewith you.
Greg (05:17):
Well, Thaddeus, as we're getting ready to start, what do
you really want out of ourconversation today?
Thaddeus (05:22):
What do I want?
I think what I want ishopefully whatever is about to
unfold, uh, hopefully it'llconnect with your audience.
And if it can help one person,even just one person, then I'd
say it's been a it's been a goodmeeting.
So that's what I would want isjust to at least help one
(05:44):
person.
That's my want for today.
Greg (05:46):
I would love to just take a few minutes here at the start
to help our listeners get toknow you a little bit, where you
came from.
Yeah, just help help ourlisteners get to know Thaddeus a
little bit.
Thaddeus (05:57):
Sure.
Thanks for asking.
I live in Tennessee, have beenin the South for about 30 plus
years now.
I'm originally a Yankee fromthe Northeast from upstate New
York, where I grew up.
Come from a really big family.
I I'll say raised in thechurch, but more appropriately,
I've in a sense always knownJesus.
(06:18):
He's been a part of my lifesince my earliest memories.
Yeah, after school, aftercollege, I made my way to
Tennessee.
I I did school in Virginia,made my my way here to Tennessee
directly after that, and workedin the business side of the
music industry for a while.
I never heard that.
Oh, it's a long time ago inanother life.
(06:38):
But uh I did that for a littlebit and did some other things
along the way, and theneventually went back to to
graduate school to work ongetting my master in marriage to
family therapy to work as atherapist.
And I've been doing that.
So this will be the end of thisyear, it'll be 17 years that
I've been uh working withclients and private practice and
(07:01):
really find a lot of joy indoing that.
Greg (07:03):
Well, I'm interested in just if you're if you want to
talk about it, what was going onin your previous professional
life being in the business intothe music industry that made you
feel like this was a pivot youwanted to take.
Thaddeus (07:16):
Well, when I left the music industry, I this has
happened twice with differentcompanies that I've worked for.
I I felt when I I knew I wasnear the end working for those
companies, and I felt aprompting in my spirit from God.
And I just knew that it wastime to move on.
First time was around 99, andthe second was 2005.
(07:38):
After 2005 is when I went backto grad school for counseling
for therapy.
But the funny thing is thatboth times I felt that prompting
in my spirit.
And I I told a friend one day,I said, I just know I'll God
will give me a road sign.
He always gives me a road sign.
That day I went in and was letgo.
They were the company was doinga downsize.
(07:59):
That actually happened bothtimes in '99.
I felt the prompting to leave,and the company did a downsize,
and a group of people, includingmyself and my office, we were
let go.
And then the second time in2005, the same thing happened.
Both of my bosses, amazingguys, they felt really bad.
And for me, I wasn't feelingbad at all because I knew it was
(08:20):
time to go and I got aseverance on top of it.
So that's what prompted me toleave the music industry and
head back to school.
And what led me more down theroad of therapy, I just felt
naturally inclined that way andhad often thought about, even
when I was younger, about uhsome some time in life being a
(08:44):
pastor, not a preacher, but morepastoral work and and you know,
therapy and pastoral work kindof kind of go hand in hand.
Sure.
Because I'm sh I'm shepherdingpeople.
Greg (08:54):
I got a story in my head about your previous professional
life that maybe there were somethings relationally where you
were already discovering thatabout yourself.
Did you notice in just evenyour work relationships that you
would notice things or had acuriosity about what was going
on in other people that kind ofmade that eventual decision make
more sense to you?
Thaddeus (10:45):
Not in the way that it sounds like you're thinking.
It was it wasn't more that Isaw into the people I worked
with, but it was more of what Ididn't see and and didn't feel
drawn to in the business side,in the business world that I
wouldn't say led me to therapybecause I was already kind of in
that vein of thinking.
(11:06):
But it perhaps the better wayof saying it is it didn't, I
didn't fit in the businessworld.
It's not so much the peoplearound me as much as I just
didn't fit because the peoplearound me were were amazing and
really great at what what theydid.
Greg (11:20):
So you said you're coming up on finishing 17 years
practicing as a therapist.
Thaddeus (11:25):
Yes.
Greg (11:26):
Have you been in the middle Tennessee the whole time
you've been doing that?
Thaddeus (11:30):
Yeah, the entire time I graduated from Tribeca
Nazareth University is where Idid my grad work in the end of
2008 and hung a shingle inJanuary of 2009.
Started seeing clients within afew months.
I didn't have a client ready togo right in January, but by
probably March I had my firstclient and have been here the
whole time.
Greg (11:50):
You and I are friends on social media, and some of the
things that I see, you've got aa lot of engagement, connection,
and endearment in yourcommunity that there in
Franklin, specifically aroundthe holidays.
Right?
Thaddeus (12:03):
You know what I'm talking about?
I do.
I didn't know you were gonnabring this up.
Is that okay?
Tell me about you and Franklinaround Christmas.
Well, since I've been a littlekid, I've Christmas has always
been my favorite time of theyear.
And I come from a big family,and so for me, it was always a
lot of fun with family and andmeals, and uh my parents were
(12:25):
wonderful, really tried to makethe holidays wonderful for us.
And so around 2007, I wasintroduced to my friend Heath.
Heath McLaur, wonderful guy,and he's an Anglican priest.
He's he's a lot of things, hewears a lot of different hats,
but a wonderful man and goodfriend.
He and his wife were wonderfulfriends.
Well, Heath and I started toget together every Wednesday
(12:48):
night at McQuery's pub and talkand get to know each other.
And one of those conversations,as the holidays were nearing,
we discovered both of usdiscovered our love of the
holidays and Christmas.
In in Franklin, in the townsquare, they'd they put up a
tree.
And so after we were done atthe pub, every Wednesday night
during the holidays, we wouldtake a walk down and admire the
(13:09):
tree.
And then as phones got smarter,I started taking pictures.
And then as phones got smarter,we started shooting video, just
silly video, right?
In front of the tree, you know,30-second video.
And then I think it was around2017, I had an idea.
I wanted to sew a legend intoFranklin.
Whether it ever takes orcatches on, who knows?
(13:32):
But it's just been fun to do.
So I I got in touch with heath.
I said, Hey, I have this idea Iwant to try.
I'm gonna go get a few items,and uh, he was on board with it.
So every November 1st, we plantwhat's called the magic pine
cone.
We plant the Franklin Christmastree.
It's very family friendly.
There's a there's a Facebookpage, and uh we video this, and
(13:54):
there's candy cane andultrawell, and there's melted
snow water from the North Polethat St.
Nicholas sends.
And so anyway, it became thisthing where we plant it and
water it, and then we come backthe next week and there's a
little sprig of a pine popped upout of the ground, and then we
water it with more uh snowwater, and then we come back a
third week and there's a about athree-foot pine, and then we
(14:15):
come back and there's this40-foot tree in the town square
near the end of November, rightbefore Thanksgiving.
And then uh on New Year's Eve,we the tree yields back another
pine cone for the followingyear.
So we harvest the pine cone andwe do other videos throughout
the whole season around thetree.
Out of that, I decided to writea book about that.
So there's now a children'sbook called The First Franklin
(14:36):
Christmas Tree, and the authoris Professor Thadamouse, who
lives in an old oak tree in themiddle of Franklin.
So Thadamouse tells the storyof the first Franklin Christmas
tree, how we we get this magictrine code every year since.
Other than that, uh Keith and Ialso have been friends with the
pub for years, the owners ofthe pub, the like family.
Greg (14:58):
Yeah.
Thaddeus (14:59):
And about this will be our ninth annual what we call
Beers and Cheers.
So if the pub allows us to comein the Saturday night before
Christmas, for two hours, welead the entire pub in Christmas
caroling.
And at some point we lower thelights, and Heath reads the the
Gospel of Luke story of thefirst Christmas.
So it's a really great time.
(15:20):
We have regulars now that comeback every year.
We're in our ninth year, and uhpeople really enjoy it.
It's a great town.
It's a wonderful town just tobe a part of the community.
Greg (15:31):
That's really it's fun to hear you describe it because
I've never heard it all at allat once.
And it's making me think aboutjust about doing something with
intentionality because you loveit.
And you know, you started outsaying basically something to
the nature of, didn't reallyknow if it was going to catch on
or anybody else was gonna care.
(15:51):
But it I love Christmas, Heathloved Christmas.
We just decided to do this andkind of just see where it goes.
It brought to mind another kindof intentional tradition that
we've actually talked about onthis show when we had Andy
Gullahorn and Gabe Scott ontalking about their high five
that's now been going 11 or 12years.
And I think it's worth pausingfor a second and just saying,
(16:13):
you know, when we hear peopledescribing these traditions that
they started, something that Ihear a lot is it's silly or it's
a little thing or whatever.
And and maybe, maybe there's alittle bit of that to it.
But Andy even wrote a song ofsaying small things matter is
really no small thing.
And there's there's a lot ofreal pleasure in doing
(16:36):
something.
And who cares if it gets big orwho cares if a lot of people
know about it?
Thaddeus (16:40):
Yeah, thanks for saying that.
You've reminded me of two otherstories tied to what we do at
Christmas and the intentionalityand what some of the fruit
that's come from it.
People have asked me when Iwrote the book, so what do you
hope happens?
You want to make a lot ofmoney.
And like it's a very specificbook for a very specific town.
It's you know, it's not gonnamake a lot of money.
(17:02):
But what I sincerely want is tobe invited to light the tree in
the town square for one year.
That's all I want from it.
And and also to sew in alegend, you know, again,
hopefully this will catch onover the years.
With the Beers and Cheersevening, I think it was two
years ago.
It might have been even three.
We did our Beers and Cheers onSaturday night.
(17:25):
And the next day, I was havingcoffee at a coffee shop in
Franklin, about three blocksaway from the pub.
It was getting close to threeo'clock, and someone had emailed
me through my business emailbecause they didn't know how
else to reach me.
They stated in the email, hey,I'm so sorry to reach out
through your business email, butwe were at Beers and Cheers
last night.
And long story short, what hadhappened was there were these
(17:48):
two couples that had started tocome each year, and they made it
their thing.
And sadly, earlier that year,one of the couples, the wife,
had died unexpectedly.
I'm not sure what what that wasall about, but it was very sad.
And as it got closer to thenight of Caroling, they had
(18:10):
decided to come anyway tocelebrate, but also in honor of
her.
So I'm sitting in this coffeeshop reading this, and and also
the night before, Heath, I callmyself the side man.
Heath is the front man.
He just he knows how to talk.
He's you know, he's a priest,he talks a lot of the time to
people, right?
So I do one-on-one.
Heath talks in front of people.
And and he had just when we dobeers and cheers, he will just
(18:33):
he'll just deliver a message oftruth, and it's really powerful
and it hits people differentways.
Well, they had in this email,they went on to say what Heath
said was exactly what theyneeded to hear, all three of
them.
Well, and and it was the truththat they needed and the love
that they needed.
And so now I'm sitting in thiscoffee shop reading this email
and I'm bawling, and and andit's almost three o'clock, and
(18:57):
that's when the pub closes onSunday.
And I knew Heath would bethere.
So I gotta get over therebefore they lock the doors.
And so I ran down the managerthere, Ashley, who's wonderful.
She was there too.
And so I'm you guys, I can'teven read this to you.
And I just hand them my phone.
I'm like, just read it.
And then by the time they weredone, the three of us are just
sitting around the table crying.
We never thought about how itmight affect people in in those
(19:22):
ways.
So it's wonderful to be part ofsomething bigger that we never
meant to be bigger.
Greg (19:26):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
That's really cool andencouraging to hear.
It's also kind of turning thepage to the topic that I
communicated with you aboutahead of time, this whole
concept of agency.
That's a word that I think aspeople in culture are becoming a
little bit more therapeuticallyinformed.
More people who know what wemean when we say agency than
(19:48):
probably five or 10 years ago.
For my purposes, as far as likedefining agency, when you're
thinking about agency or hopingor desiring to see a client show
up with self-agency, what doesthat look like?
How would you describe thattrait or that process or that
experience?
Thaddeus (20:07):
Most of the time, if not all the time, clients
typically show up with the levelof agency they had when they
were a child.
They're in this adult body,they're doing these adult things
every day, going to work,paying a mortgage, falling in
love, you know, building afamily, worshiping God, all
these things that make up ourlives.
(20:28):
And often, though, wherethey're stuck is they forget
that they grew up.
They now have power and choiceand agency that they did not
when they were 12 or 14 or 16.
Because often when we come upagainst something in our life,
whether it's shame at work or athome, or something happens
(20:50):
where we go to an unhealthyplace in our walk.
Typically, when a client willbring something up like that, a
shame moment, I'll ask, hey,let's say they were the client's
40 years old.
I'll say, Hey, did that feel 40years old or did that feel a
different age?
I don't ask, did I feel ayounger age?
I just say different because Idon't want to taint taint it
(21:11):
either either way.
Most of the time, clients willsay, Oh yeah, that felt like a
teenager or college or evenyounger than a teenager.
And usually what follows isthey make an unhealthy decision
because that's what the youngerthem would have done.
And so when I think of agency,most of the time I'm meeting
(21:33):
people that are acting in indistress or in shame or in hurt
or pain.
They're acting out of a youngeragency rather than their
present-day agency.
Now, the rest of the time,they're usually acting out of
their adult's agency.
So that's what comes to mindfor me when I think of agency
and how that shows up in myoffice.
Greg (21:54):
So the differentiation between the parts of their lives
where they're able to show upas an adult with adult-sized
agency versus how they show upin your office with a younger
type of agency.
What explains the split betweenbeing able to show up in my
adult self over here, but moreshowing up as a younger, kind of
(22:18):
a younger experience over here?
Thaddeus (22:20):
So usually it's something, and well, let me back
up.
They can come into my officeand their adult self agency,
right?
Greg (22:26):
Sure.
Thaddeus (22:27):
But they might bring it up.
Well, it took that, it tookthat to get to your office,
right?
Correct.
Right.
Yes, absolutely.
But they'll come in and they'lldescribe something that was
painful or shameful or hurtful,and then how they reacted to it.
I differentiate between reactsreacting and responding, right?
Usually the adultself-response, but our more
(22:49):
immature parts react.
So if they react, if we reactto something usually and they go
to shame, then that's usuallywhen we're going to a younger
part of ourselves.
And that's where we riskresponding or reacting actually
in from a younger place.
I encourage, first of all, Iencourage the client, hey, what
(23:12):
a great opportunity to learnsomething, right?
Well instead of going to shame,let it be your teacher.
And then if they can practicethat, then they're raising their
awareness around, oh, wait aminute, the next time they want
to, you know, eat too much ordrink too much or whatever it is
that they go to to perhapsmedicate or avoid, let that if
(23:34):
they let that be their teacher,then they can say, Oh, well,
maybe maybe I'm going to ayounger place right now.
What are some better choices asan adult that I can make?
And even to have that innerchild work or inner dialogue
too.
I tell them, hey, talk to thatyounger part of you and say,
we're an adult now.
We have power and choice andagency that you didn't, and I
(23:55):
I'm not going to let anythinghappen to you.
I'm going to take care of you.
Greg (23:59):
I I think that makes a lot of sense.
And and the whole reason whywhat you were telling about the
Christmas traditions kind of gotmy brain thinking that way is
because as I think about agency,for me, it's kind of a
developing experience.
You started out with thethought, this is fun.
I love Christmas.
How would it be fun for me andmy friend who also loves
(24:20):
Christmas to do something thatwe'll enjoy?
And then as things starthappening, well, what if this?
Okay, step toward that.
And then what if this and steptowards that?
And then you come to find outalong the way that it's not just
meaningful for the two of you,it's becoming meaningful for a
lot more people.
And then now that's going toinform what do I do with that in
the future?
(24:40):
And when you're talking aboutthe difference between
responding and reacting, I mean,that's a responsive kind of
trajectory through somethingthat may have started out
without a clear vision of if itwas going to go anywhere or
where it's going to go.
And it just reminded me that somany people at the beginning of
a therapeutic process don'thave a clear vision sometimes,
(25:01):
even of why I'm here.
It's just something's off.
There's something that's notworking the way I want it to in
my life.
And so I'm going to asksomebody for help, which is a
very adult thing to do.
But then one of the things thatyou and I emailed about was I
just was sharing like anexperience that I've had.
And I'm not a therapist, butI'm a coach and I will work with
(25:21):
coaching clients.
And I have experienced just thefeeling when I, when I see, I
because I don't know if you'reyou're like this.
Sometimes I feel like I can seea shift happening right in
front of me.
And the adult that came in, allof a sudden they're even like
their body language changes tosomething that looks a lot
younger.
And sometimes the tone of theirvoice changes and their
(25:42):
expression changes.
And when I see that happening,I'll sometimes just kind of
gently point out what I noticedand ask them if they're aware of
something, you know, did younotice something going on?
And sometimes they'll justfreeze.
They've dropped into that placewhere they don't have adult
agency or or even curiosity.
And I have had plenty of timesthat I've found myself feeling
(26:05):
stuck to and feeling veryuncomfortable just sitting in
it.
And and I told you about that,and I kind of asked you about in
the email.
One thing that you said whenyou were emailing me back is I
don't know that I feel ashelpless 17 years in as I did
five years in.
Talk about that if you would.
Like what changed, how was itlike for you in the early years
(26:28):
when you would feel like youwere in the room with someone
who was stuck or panicky orshutting down, how that affected
you and then how it's come toaffect you less and just being
able to be with them?
Thaddeus (26:39):
Yeah, 17 years in I think with anything we do, if we
stay at it long enough, we kindof find our rhythm and our
stick and um things that werevisit.
Because, you know, I while myclients are all individuals,
we're all human.
So we share a lot of the samestruggles and hurts and pains.
(27:00):
So so there's a kind of arhythm to to being a therapist
or a life coach that I think wefind.
Whereas early on, I haven'tfound that rhythm yet.
And I also I just jumped intothe deep end.
I I didn't uh I now I startedwith a group.
I I was invited into a grouppractice where we shared space,
(27:21):
and I could certainly go to someof them if I needed to get some
feedback, but otherwise it wasall me.
And it's just like okay, thereare no training wheels on this.
If I fall, I'd fall.
So a lot of it was justlearning how to hopefully be a
good therapist, learn as you go,and back then feeling like I
(27:43):
had to know what to say, puttingthat pressure on myself.
I have to know what to say.
That's why they're here, right?
As I've gotten older in what Ido, and and just learning from
other people and theconversations with other
counselors or therapists, oreven do staffing some retreats,
like not very similar to theretreats that you put on.
(28:04):
And just getting to work withother life coaches or counselors
in real time on a retreat,let's say.
I've just picked up and soakedup so much over the years that I
think has expanded mycomfortability with myself and
who's with me in the moment.
As far as being stuck, one ofmy professors, I remember
(28:27):
telling me to use whatever theperson is giving you in the
moment.
Don't feel like you have tobring some always bring
something in that they did notintroduce.
And so I've had any number ofclients get stuck in the moment.
And usually now I'm the one tosay it first.
I'll say, Hey, are you stuck?
Because it's kind of obvious.
(28:48):
And they'll say, Yeah, I feelstuck.
And I said, Yeah, I feel stuck,which tells me you're probably
stuck.
And that's okay.
Hey, why don't we just be stucktogether?
And it's kind of likeliterally, if you are stuck in a
vehicle in the mud, right?
And you're rolling back andforth, it's that rocking motion.
I'm like, hey, well, tell meabout stuck.
What's that like for you?
What's it like being stuck inhere, not knowing where to go?
(29:11):
And suddenly the vehicle'smoving again.
Greg (29:14):
Yeah.
So acknowledging the stuckness,talking about the stuckness is
how you get unstuck sometimes.
Thaddeus (29:20):
Correct.
Yeah.
Greg (29:22):
I want to go back to something you said.
There was this feeling I haveto know what to say because
that's what the client expects.
And I can really relate to thatas a coach because when I was
first starting, I put pressureon myself to A, figure out
what's going on, B, figure outwhat they need, and C figure out
(29:44):
how to get them there withinthis hour that we're in.
So, really, a whole lot of theresponsibility for this person's
path forward, I was assuming.
And how in the world did Ithink I was able or responsible
to do those things?
And so when I did someadditional training and
especially in a modality thatthat's a very curious modality,
(30:06):
and starts out with, what do youwant for yourself out of our
time?
Kind of like the question Iasked you at the beginning.
So many of my coaching clientsthat I'd already been working
with said, I thought that wasyour job to tell me.
And I I had to own some ofthat.
Like, yeah, I've I've kind oftaken that on myself, but I
don't know your insides.
Only you, you know, you and Godknow your insides.
(30:29):
And so you're the expert onyou.
And so what are you noticing?
You know, what what are younoticing that's brought you in
here today?
The the peace and the abilityto relax and be with somebody,
because I I mean, that alone fora lot of the people I'm sure
that we both see is somethingthat's fairly new, is someone
who is comfortable just beingwith.
Thaddeus (30:51):
Yeah, I I love that question.
What do you want for our timetogether today?
What I'll ask, I usually do abrief emotions check-in and then
I'll say, is there anywhere youneed to go today in particular?
Because I'll I'll usually havea couple of places I can go from
things we have been working on.
And back to your point ofassumption, there have been
(31:12):
times in the past where I lookat my list and after they do an
emotions check in, I jump rightinto the list and I've gotten
any number of times through theyears, five minutes from the end
of a session, and great workhas been done, but then the
person might say, Oh, and Ireally need to talk about This.
Yeah.
And I'll say, Oh my goodness,that's so much.
(31:33):
That's such such a big, biggerconversation than five minutes.
I'm so sorry.
I should have started byasking, what do you need right
now?
Rather than what I would marchinto again is what we were
already working on.
And so it was a furtherance ofthat.
Still, still good work.
Still good work, but I didn'ttake the time to stop years ago
(31:54):
and ask, hey, what do you reallywant for yourself for today?
And there are times wherepeople say, No, I got nothing.
What do you have?
And then we're usually afterthe races.
Greg (32:08):
But well, and then that comes back to agency, right?
Because if you ask them thatand then they say, Yeah, I've
been thinking about this, andI'm going to say this is what I
want to talk about.
And even in those times whenthey say, I got nothing in
particular, well, looking at thepast sessions, we could talk
about this or this or this.
Do any of those sound like whatyou want?
And now they're it's a multiplechoice question.
(32:30):
But they're still exercisingagency, which is still an
empowerment that you're invitingthem to take on.
Thaddeus (32:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the extreme opposite of allof that is I've learned that if
I'm working harder than theclient, I'm working too hard.
Greg (32:46):
Could you say more about that?
Thaddeus (32:48):
Yeah.
When I said, and then youpicked up on, you know, I I felt
earlier in the first fiveyears, I felt like I've got to
have the answers, or I wasputting pressure on myself.
And I would say the majority ofmy clients through the years,
they're here because they wantto do work, you know, and they
may be scared.
And so sometimes we're ordepressed, and so sometimes it's
a slow go, and that's fine.
(33:09):
But every now and then I've hada client who will sit there and
they will do nothing at all.
I I'll ask, you know, why areyou here?
You know, where do you want togo?
And years ago, I would havepushed and prodded and pulled
teeth and been really exhaustedat the end of a session like
(33:30):
that.
And that's when I realized I'mworking harder than them.
This is their work.
Why am I working so hard?
As far as what I just saidabout exhaustion, I could
literally have five clients in arow, and everyone is just doing
their work and they're involvedand engaged, and I'm energized
at the end of five clients.
And then I could have twoclients and be exhausted if both
(33:54):
of them are not doing theirwork and literally just be done
for the day.
Greg (33:57):
So well, when you talk about realizing that you're
working harder than harder thanthe client, I re I can relate to
that a lot.
I'd love to be able to say thatwhen I struggle with that more,
it was because I cared so muchabout the client that I just was
so passionate about theprogress that I was hoping to be
able to support them in.
But really, it was a whole lotmore about what I was thinking
(34:20):
and feeling about myself.
Right.
So that's a whole, I mean,that's me showing up with a
younger sense of agency andbeing reactive instead of
responsive.
And then just to be able tosay, you know what?
I'm going to trust that if aclient is dissatisfied with the
work they're doing with me, thatit's their responsibility to
tell me.
But it really, when I'm workingharder than they are, it's
(34:42):
pulling me out of even beingable to attune to them, to pay
attention to them, you know, togive them the kind of presence
that's a huge helpful part ofthis.
Thaddeus (34:52):
Yeah, I think I think what's helped me start to turn
that corner is similar to whatyou were just saying.
I I would say in the firstfive, seven years or so when I
was putting that pressure on me,that's when I was working
harder than some clients.
Most of my clients, like Isaid, were there to be engaged
and to and do work.
And it's when I started torealize, oh, this isn't really
(35:15):
on me.
I'm here to try to help themget to their goals.
I'm here to try to help themunpack and feel or whatever it
is they need to do.
I think that's when I began torealize, oh, yeah, I've been
working a lot harder than someof my clients.
So I think it they went kind ofhand in hand.
Greg (35:34):
What's it like for you when you have been working with
someone who has come in with areally, you know, low amount of
capacity for that?
And then you start to see themremaining in their full adult
selves.
They're starting to be able toverbalize intentionality and
what they want for themselvesand start to respond rather than
(35:55):
to react.
Thaddeus (35:56):
Oh, it's oh it's wonderful to see people start to
get some traction and realizeyou know, once they've stretched
a little bit, they can stretcha little bit more, stretch a
little bit more, and theycontinue to grow.
And once they get thatmomentum, it doesn't mean we
don't ever slide back a bit, butno, it's a wonderful feeling
that people really start to seebreakthroughs in their journey
(36:19):
and feel more confident in whoGod has made them to be and why
they're here and they see a wayforward in life, or maybe they
did it before.
It's really it's veryrewarding, it's very honoring,
you know, to be a part of that.
Greg (36:33):
Do they tend to see it for themselves, or is it sometimes
something you have to reflectback and point out?
Hey, are you noticing what I'mnoticing?
Thaddeus (36:41):
It's a both and it just depends on the person.
You know, I I do a lot.
So since 2012, I was trained inas a level two EMDR therapist,
which is uh for those in youraudience that don't know, it's a
it's a trauma-based therapy.
Not just for trauma, but itit's it's often used for trauma.
And so some of my clients whenI'm doing EMDR with them, EMDR
(37:06):
is such I call it a laserfocused therapy.
It just gets right in thereright to it.
And and I've seen just thingscome off of people and they're
different people and and theynotice it and they're like, I
just feel so different and Ifeel so much more confident,
right?
And then there are people whosometimes it's harder for them
(37:26):
to see because if they let's sayhave a slip or they fall back
into something, whatever theirtheir poison is, they'll say
they'll come in feeling shameand they'll say, Ah, but I
haven't I had a slip.
It's been eight months sinceI've done that.
What is wrong?
And I'll even just narrow itdown a little.
Hey, can you tell me a littlebit more about that?
About how long were you engagedin this in the slip, right?
(37:49):
Oh, it could be 20 minutes, itcould be an hour, whatever.
And I'll just and that's when Ireflect back to that.
So let's say it was eightmonths, that they were sober,
and I'll just say, so for sevenmonths, twenty-nine days,
twenty-three hours, and thirtyminutes, you've been sober and
you're focused on this little30-minute window.
Greg (38:10):
Exactly.
Thaddeus (38:11):
But you're missing how much you've grown.
Or another way I'll explainthis, I know this is audio, but
if if your audience can pictureuh almost like a a cyclone or a
tornado, right?
And if you st if if you thinkof that as your journey, rather
than just a linear line movingforward in your journey and your
(38:31):
walk, think of you're startingat the top in your journey and
you're walking circular, butthen you're going downward, like
like a funnel, right?
It's going downward.
And and sometimes guys willcome in and they'll say, I
slipped up and I'm way up here.
They think it puts them back atsquare one at the top.
And I was like, no, you're notat square one.
You're about three levels deepin your work, and you came back
(38:54):
around to whatever it is youstruggle with.
Okay, you but there's somethingto learn there.
You went to a younger part ofyourself, maybe, or it was the
addictive brain taking over, butthere's something to learn, but
you haven't lost all thatground.
Greg (39:09):
Yeah.
Thaddeus (39:09):
And so that that's I would say how sometimes I'm
reflecting it back to them,their growth.
Usually it's when they're indistress that they all growth
they think has gone out thewindow.
Greg (39:18):
And we say similar things in our community too.
And I think that's why havingan attuned therapist, but also
being a part of a supportivecommunity that listens is so
helpful because I've heard I'veheard people talking about
coming back from a slip andrecovery meeting and just
sitting in the circle saying,But you know, I yeah, I drove
(39:39):
into the ditch, but when I gotback on the road, I wasn't back
where I started.
I was back on the road rightwhere I drove off the road, you
know, and I kept going.
When people say things likethat, I hear I and I see other
people perk up and they're like,Oh, so you don't go, is this is
not like shoots and ladderswhere you like you slide, yeah,
slide all the way back to thevery beginning.
(39:59):
No, that's not that's not howit works.
Thaddeus (40:02):
Or like Monopoly, where go directly to jail, do
not pass go, do not collect$200, right?
If you we think we get put intopurgatory.
Greg (40:11):
Yeah.
Well, I love the things thatyou've given us to reflect on.
It takes me back in my mind toa quote that I've come to love,
Victor Frankel.
In between stimulus andresponse, there is a space.
And in that space is my powerto choose my response.
And in my choice is my growthand freedom.
Working with people who havehad compulsive or addictive or
(40:33):
unwanted experiences in theirlife, I mean, the trigger and
the reaction just seems likeit's there's no space in between
it at all.
It's just this happens, andbefore I know it, I'm doing
this.
And walking alongside people tohelp them be able to see, no,
there's it may not seem like alot, but there is a little bitty
bit amount of space in there.
And you get to choose what youdo next.
(40:55):
And and learning how to choosea response rather than be led
away by a reaction.
It's just so life-giving andpowerful to see people start to
believe that and then start toact on it.
Thaddeus (41:07):
Yeah, it's you just said do the next right thing.
It's Ecclesiastes when Solomon,who's called the teacher in
Ecclesiastes, that's why Ialways say, hey, don't let it be
your shame, let it be yourteacher.
There's a section where hetries different things, he
gathers riches, he builds avineyard, grows a vineyard,
(41:27):
creates his own wine,architecture, and wisdom in
academia and women.
And he's very methodical.
And he's in my judgment, he'svery scientific.
He's just and he's testing eachone.
And at the end of everything hetries, in my translation, what
he's saying is, wow, that'samazing.
Look at all this gold andsilver I've got.
(41:47):
This is awesome.
And yet it's not ultimatefulfillment.
Revere God and do the nextright thing.
And then he does it withvineyards and wine.
Oh, look what I've done.
This is amazing.
But there's nothing new underthe sun, right?
And then even with women, youknow, he had 300 wives, 700
concubines.
But he says, Oh, yeah, that'sgreat.
(42:07):
But revere God, do the nextright thing.
And we're also told that arighteous man falls seven times
and gets up again.
It doesn't say a righteous manfalls and gets up a scoundrel
and walks a little further.
Now he's righteous again.
So do the next right thing.
You we always have that choice,even if we've made five bad
choices, because the sixth onecan be the right thing.
Greg (42:29):
And even if we've made five bad choices and are
currently having to live withthe consequences of those five
bad choices, that doesn't meanthat we can't choose the next
right thing, you know, whileliving with the fallout from the
things that I did.
Well, you've given us a lot ofcool things that we've been able
to reflect on.
And I just appreciate youtaking some time, Thaddeus.
(42:51):
It's been great to catch up andto just sort of dive in and let
the conversation go where itdid.
I I think that people sittingin are going to hear a lot of
things that hopefully spur somecuriosity for their own stories.
And if they're not alreadyworking with somebody to help
them kind of navigate their waythrough that, that they'll find
that.
But thanks for giving us achance to put that out there for
(43:13):
people.
Thaddeus (43:13):
Thanks, Steve.
It's been great sitting withyou and your audience and just
thanks for having me.
For sure.
Greg (43:18):
We're we're gonna put some links to the book and some of
the Christmas stuff in Franklinfor people who are interested in
that.
Okay.
I know if anybody is one-tenthas in love with Christmas as my
wife Stacey is, then they'regonna want to check that out.
Thaddeus (43:33):
About five years ago, uh, I forget the name of the
site, but they're a travel site,and Franklin, Tennessee was
third in the world for the placeto visit for Christmas.
I think Germany.
There was a town in Germany.
Anyhow, Franklin, Tennessee.
Greg (43:48):
Well, I've been to downtown Franklin.
It makes perfect sense to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
God bless you.
Thaddeus (43:55):
You too.
We never thought about how it might affect people in
those ways.
So it's wonderful to be part ofsomething bigger than we never
meant it to be.
Announcer (00:11):
Welcome to What We Really Want.
Conversations about connection.
Settle in and get ready for agreat conversation.
Let's talk about what we reallywant.
Greg (00:23):
Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of What We
Really Want.
Today is episode 52.
It's called Christmas Trees andTherapy.
And we're going to talk aboutthe episode more in just a
minute.
But first, I wanted to take aminute and just check in with
you on a couple of things.
We're approaching the holidays,and just like we did last year,
we are going to give you alittle gift this year by
(00:45):
releasing a new episode everyTuesday in December.
Normally we release every otherTuesday, but you can come back
each week this month and get anew episode.
And so we hope that you reallyenjoy that and that helps your
uh season be a little bitbrighter and jollier.
We would ask, please subscribeto or follow the podcast.
And then go an extra step.
(01:07):
We would love for you to writea positive review that really
helps the word get out.
And then consider sharing aboutus on social media.
When you see us post aboutepisodes when they come out,
just go ahead and share thosejust to help more people find
out about the conversations thatwe're having.
One more thing before we get totalking about our episode.
Many of you who've beenlistening for a while know that
(01:28):
what we really want is anoffering of a nonprofit that
Stacy and I started 10 years agocalled Awaken.
Awaken exists for the purposeof helping people live the lives
they were meant to live, freefrom the destruction of unwanted
or addictive sexual behaviorand the wounds of sexual
betrayal trauma.
That's our story, and that's astory that we walk with a lot of
(01:49):
people who are going throughthat in their healing and their
recovery.
And we're really excited thatthis show has been a way that a
lot of people have found outabout us and connected with us
in many ways.
We realize that at this time ofthe year, you're probably
getting inundated with requestsfrom different charities and
nonprofits, just letting youknow what the needs are.
I'm going to keep this reallybrief and just let you know that
(02:11):
Awaken is a nonprofit.
We are supported almostexclusively by the gifts of
individuals and organizations.
And if Awaken, and specificallyif what we really want, has
been impactful for you, if ithas helped you in any way, we
would just ask you to considersending us a little bit of
support before the end of theyear.
Just go to awakenrecovery.comat the top of the page, click
(02:34):
where it says donate, and wewould be so grateful for any
gift that you would considergiving us before the end of the
year.
So thanks for hearing that, andthank you for being a faithful
listener.
Now let's talk about theepisode that's coming up right
now.
This is episode 52.
Our guest is Thaddeus Hefner,and it's called Christmas Trees
in Therapy.
(02:54):
Thaddeus is a therapist inFranklin, Tennessee.
I first heard Thaddeus' namefrom other people that I knew in
recovery who lived in theNashville area who just said he
was fantastic, empathetic, justa super person to work with for
people who are in recovery fromaddictive or unwanted sexual
behavior.
That's not the only type ofclient that he has, but there
(03:15):
are a lot of people who fit thatdescription who have found and
worked with Thaddeus.
And so we wanted to have aconversation just about his work
with clients and what it lookslike when someone who comes in
stuck gets unstuck and what itwas like for him when he went
into therapy, finding outsometimes that it seemed like he
was working harder than theclient and just allowing time
(03:38):
for God and the client to workon showing up with what we call
agency or taking ownership foryour process of healing and
recovery.
So we talk about that, butbefore that comes up in the
conversation, we have kind of afun and timely uh topic that we
discussed.
There's something that Thaddeushas sort of launched as a
(03:59):
tradition in Franklin,Tennessee, and that is the
annual planting of the Christmaspine cone.
And you'll hear us talk aboutthat.
He started this with a friend,I think, gosh, I can't remember
now how many years ago, six orseven years ago.
It has grown into somethingthat people are looking forward
to each year.
He's even written a children'sbook about the Franklin
(04:20):
Christmas tree.
And so that's a lot of fun justhearing him talk about how much
he loves the holidays and howit has really allowed him to
connect more deeply with hiscommunity through this new
tradition.
So we talk about Christmastrees, we talk about therapy,
and it's just a greatconversation catching up with an
old friend.
We really hope that you enjoyit.
It's episode 52.
It's called Christmas Trees andTherapy.
(04:41):
Our guest is Thaddeus Hefner,and the conversation starts
right now.
Thaddeus Hefner, it's great tosee you.
It's been a while.
Thanks for being on What WeReally Want.
Thaddeus (04:51):
Oh, thanks for having me, Greg.
It's good to be here with youtoday.
Greg (04:54):
I'm trying to think back to how long I've known you
because I've known of you forprobably twelve or more years,
but I I think I've probablyknown you for more like six or
seven.
And I'm just I've been lookingforward to getting to catch up
and chat with you today.
So this is gonna be fun.
Thaddeus (05:11):
Thank you.
Yeah, it has been two years, Ithink, since we've last seen
each other.
So this is this is great to bewith you.
Greg (05:17):
Well, Thaddeus, as we're getting ready to start, what do
you really want out of ourconversation today?
Thaddeus (05:22):
What do I want?
I think what I want ishopefully whatever is about to
unfold, uh, hopefully it'llconnect with your audience.
And if it can help one person,even just one person, then I'd
say it's been a it's been a goodmeeting.
So that's what I would want isjust to at least help one
(05:44):
person.
That's my want for today.
Greg (05:46):
I would love to just take a few minutes here at the start
to help our listeners get toknow you a little bit, where you
came from.
Yeah, just help help ourlisteners get to know Thaddeus a
little bit.
Thaddeus (05:57):
Sure.
Thanks for asking.
I live in Tennessee, have beenin the South for about 30 plus
years now.
I'm originally a Yankee fromthe Northeast from upstate New
York, where I grew up.
Come from a really big family.
I I'll say raised in thechurch, but more appropriately,
I've in a sense always knownJesus.
(06:18):
He's been a part of my lifesince my earliest memories.
Yeah, after school, aftercollege, I made my way to
Tennessee.
I I did school in Virginia,made my my way here to Tennessee
directly after that, and workedin the business side of the
music industry for a while.
I never heard that.
Oh, it's a long time ago inanother life.
(06:38):
But uh I did that for a littlebit and did some other things
along the way, and theneventually went back to to
graduate school to work ongetting my master in marriage to
family therapy to work as atherapist.
And I've been doing that.
So this will be the end of thisyear, it'll be 17 years that
I've been uh working withclients and private practice and
(07:01):
really find a lot of joy indoing that.
Greg (07:03):
Well, I'm interested in just if you're if you want to
talk about it, what was going onin your previous professional
life being in the business intothe music industry that made you
feel like this was a pivot youwanted to take.
Thaddeus (07:16):
Well, when I left the music industry, I this has
happened twice with differentcompanies that I've worked for.
I I felt when I I knew I wasnear the end working for those
companies, and I felt aprompting in my spirit from God.
And I just knew that it wastime to move on.
First time was around 99, andthe second was 2005.
(07:38):
After 2005 is when I went backto grad school for counseling
for therapy.
But the funny thing is thatboth times I felt that prompting
in my spirit.
And I I told a friend one day,I said, I just know I'll God
will give me a road sign.
He always gives me a road sign.
That day I went in and was letgo.
They were the company was doinga downsize.
(07:59):
That actually happened bothtimes in '99.
I felt the prompting to leave,and the company did a downsize,
and a group of people, includingmyself and my office, we were
let go.
And then the second time in2005, the same thing happened.
Both of my bosses, amazingguys, they felt really bad.
And for me, I wasn't feelingbad at all because I knew it was
(08:20):
time to go and I got aseverance on top of it.
So that's what prompted me toleave the music industry and
head back to school.
And what led me more down theroad of therapy, I just felt
naturally inclined that way andhad often thought about, even
when I was younger, about uhsome some time in life being a
(08:44):
pastor, not a preacher, but morepastoral work and and you know,
therapy and pastoral work kindof kind of go hand in hand.
Sure.
Because I'm sh I'm shepherdingpeople.
Greg (08:54):
I got a story in my head about your previous professional
life that maybe there were somethings relationally where you
were already discovering thatabout yourself.
Did you notice in just evenyour work relationships that you
would notice things or had acuriosity about what was going
on in other people that kind ofmade that eventual decision make
more sense to you?
Thaddeus (10:45):
Not in the way that it sounds like you're thinking.
It was it wasn't more that Isaw into the people I worked
with, but it was more of what Ididn't see and and didn't feel
drawn to in the business side,in the business world that I
wouldn't say led me to therapybecause I was already kind of in
that vein of thinking.
(11:06):
But it perhaps the better wayof saying it is it didn't, I
didn't fit in the businessworld.
It's not so much the peoplearound me as much as I just
didn't fit because the peoplearound me were were amazing and
really great at what what theydid.
Greg (11:20):
So you said you're coming up on finishing 17 years
practicing as a therapist.
Thaddeus (11:25):
Yes.
Greg (11:26):
Have you been in the middle Tennessee the whole time
you've been doing that?
Thaddeus (11:30):
Yeah, the entire time I graduated from Tribeca
Nazareth University is where Idid my grad work in the end of
2008 and hung a shingle inJanuary of 2009.
Started seeing clients within afew months.
I didn't have a client ready togo right in January, but by
probably March I had my firstclient and have been here the
whole time.
Greg (11:50):
You and I are friends on social media, and some of the
things that I see, you've got aa lot of engagement, connection,
and endearment in yourcommunity that there in
Franklin, specifically aroundthe holidays.
Right?
Thaddeus (12:03):
You know what I'm talking about?
I do.
I didn't know you were gonnabring this up.
Is that okay?
Tell me about you and Franklinaround Christmas.
Well, since I've been a littlekid, I've Christmas has always
been my favorite time of theyear.
And I come from a big family,and so for me, it was always a
lot of fun with family and andmeals, and uh my parents were
(12:25):
wonderful, really tried to makethe holidays wonderful for us.
And so around 2007, I wasintroduced to my friend Heath.
Heath McLaur, wonderful guy,and he's an Anglican priest.
He's he's a lot of things, hewears a lot of different hats,
but a wonderful man and goodfriend.
He and his wife were wonderfulfriends.
Well, Heath and I started toget together every Wednesday
(12:48):
night at McQuery's pub and talkand get to know each other.
And one of those conversations,as the holidays were nearing,
we discovered both of usdiscovered our love of the
holidays and Christmas.
In in Franklin, in the townsquare, they'd they put up a
tree.
And so after we were done atthe pub, every Wednesday night
during the holidays, we wouldtake a walk down and admire the
(13:09):
tree.
And then as phones got smarter,I started taking pictures.
And then as phones got smarter,we started shooting video, just
silly video, right?
In front of the tree, you know,30-second video.
And then I think it was around2017, I had an idea.
I wanted to sew a legend intoFranklin.
Whether it ever takes orcatches on, who knows?
(13:32):
But it's just been fun to do.
So I I got in touch with heath.
I said, Hey, I have this idea Iwant to try.
I'm gonna go get a few items,and uh, he was on board with it.
So every November 1st, we plantwhat's called the magic pine
cone.
We plant the Franklin Christmastree.
It's very family friendly.
There's a there's a Facebookpage, and uh we video this, and
(13:54):
there's candy cane andultrawell, and there's melted
snow water from the North Polethat St.
Nicholas sends.
And so anyway, it became thisthing where we plant it and
water it, and then we come backthe next week and there's a
little sprig of a pine popped upout of the ground, and then we
water it with more uh snowwater, and then we come back a
third week and there's a about athree-foot pine, and then we
(14:15):
come back and there's this40-foot tree in the town square
near the end of November, rightbefore Thanksgiving.
And then uh on New Year's Eve,we the tree yields back another
pine cone for the followingyear.
So we harvest the pine cone andwe do other videos throughout
the whole season around thetree.
Out of that, I decided to writea book about that.
So there's now a children'sbook called The First Franklin
(14:36):
Christmas Tree, and the authoris Professor Thadamouse, who
lives in an old oak tree in themiddle of Franklin.
So Thadamouse tells the storyof the first Franklin Christmas
tree, how we we get this magictrine code every year since.
Other than that, uh Keith and Ialso have been friends with the
pub for years, the owners ofthe pub, the like family.
Greg (14:58):
Yeah.
Thaddeus (14:59):
And about this will be our ninth annual what we call
Beers and Cheers.
So if the pub allows us to comein the Saturday night before
Christmas, for two hours, welead the entire pub in Christmas
caroling.
And at some point we lower thelights, and Heath reads the the
Gospel of Luke story of thefirst Christmas.
So it's a really great time.
(15:20):
We have regulars now that comeback every year.
We're in our ninth year, and uhpeople really enjoy it.
It's a great town.
It's a wonderful town just tobe a part of the community.
Greg (15:31):
That's really it's fun to hear you describe it because
I've never heard it all at allat once.
And it's making me think aboutjust about doing something with
intentionality because you loveit.
And you know, you started outsaying basically something to
the nature of, didn't reallyknow if it was going to catch on
or anybody else was gonna care.
(15:51):
But it I love Christmas, Heathloved Christmas.
We just decided to do this andkind of just see where it goes.
It brought to mind another kindof intentional tradition that
we've actually talked about onthis show when we had Andy
Gullahorn and Gabe Scott ontalking about their high five
that's now been going 11 or 12years.
And I think it's worth pausingfor a second and just saying,
(16:13):
you know, when we hear peopledescribing these traditions that
they started, something that Ihear a lot is it's silly or it's
a little thing or whatever.
And and maybe, maybe there's alittle bit of that to it.
But Andy even wrote a song ofsaying small things matter is
really no small thing.
And there's there's a lot ofreal pleasure in doing
(16:36):
something.
And who cares if it gets big orwho cares if a lot of people
know about it?
Thaddeus (16:40):
Yeah, thanks for saying that.
You've reminded me of two otherstories tied to what we do at
Christmas and the intentionalityand what some of the fruit
that's come from it.
People have asked me when Iwrote the book, so what do you
hope happens?
You want to make a lot ofmoney.
And like it's a very specificbook for a very specific town.
It's you know, it's not gonnamake a lot of money.
(17:02):
But what I sincerely want is tobe invited to light the tree in
the town square for one year.
That's all I want from it.
And and also to sew in alegend, you know, again,
hopefully this will catch onover the years.
With the Beers and Cheersevening, I think it was two
years ago.
It might have been even three.
We did our Beers and Cheers onSaturday night.
(17:25):
And the next day, I was havingcoffee at a coffee shop in
Franklin, about three blocksaway from the pub.
It was getting close to threeo'clock, and someone had emailed
me through my business emailbecause they didn't know how
else to reach me.
They stated in the email, hey,I'm so sorry to reach out
through your business email, butwe were at Beers and Cheers
last night.
And long story short, what hadhappened was there were these
(17:48):
two couples that had started tocome each year, and they made it
their thing.
And sadly, earlier that year,one of the couples, the wife,
had died unexpectedly.
I'm not sure what what that wasall about, but it was very sad.
And as it got closer to thenight of Caroling, they had
(18:10):
decided to come anyway tocelebrate, but also in honor of
her.
So I'm sitting in this coffeeshop reading this, and and also
the night before, Heath, I callmyself the side man.
Heath is the front man.
He just he knows how to talk.
He's you know, he's a priest,he talks a lot of the time to
people, right?
So I do one-on-one.
Heath talks in front of people.
And and he had just when we dobeers and cheers, he will just
(18:33):
he'll just deliver a message oftruth, and it's really powerful
and it hits people differentways.
Well, they had in this email,they went on to say what Heath
said was exactly what theyneeded to hear, all three of
them.
Well, and and it was the truththat they needed and the love
that they needed.
And so now I'm sitting in thiscoffee shop reading this email
and I'm bawling, and and andit's almost three o'clock, and
(18:57):
that's when the pub closes onSunday.
And I knew Heath would bethere.
So I gotta get over therebefore they lock the doors.
And so I ran down the managerthere, Ashley, who's wonderful.
She was there too.
And so I'm you guys, I can'teven read this to you.
And I just hand them my phone.
I'm like, just read it.
And then by the time they weredone, the three of us are just
sitting around the table crying.
We never thought about how itmight affect people in in those
(19:22):
ways.
So it's wonderful to be part ofsomething bigger that we never
meant to be bigger.
Greg (19:26):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
That's really cool andencouraging to hear.
It's also kind of turning thepage to the topic that I
communicated with you aboutahead of time, this whole
concept of agency.
That's a word that I think aspeople in culture are becoming a
little bit more therapeuticallyinformed.
More people who know what wemean when we say agency than
(19:48):
probably five or 10 years ago.
For my purposes, as far as likedefining agency, when you're
thinking about agency or hopingor desiring to see a client show
up with self-agency, what doesthat look like?
How would you describe thattrait or that process or that
experience?
Thaddeus (20:07):
Most of the time, if not all the time, clients
typically show up with the levelof agency they had when they
were a child.
They're in this adult body,they're doing these adult things
every day, going to work,paying a mortgage, falling in
love, you know, building afamily, worshiping God, all
these things that make up ourlives.
(20:28):
And often, though, wherethey're stuck is they forget
that they grew up.
They now have power and choiceand agency that they did not
when they were 12 or 14 or 16.
Because often when we come upagainst something in our life,
whether it's shame at work or athome, or something happens
(20:50):
where we go to an unhealthyplace in our walk.
Typically, when a client willbring something up like that, a
shame moment, I'll ask, hey,let's say they were the client's
40 years old.
I'll say, Hey, did that feel 40years old or did that feel a
different age?
I don't ask, did I feel ayounger age?
I just say different because Idon't want to taint taint it
(21:11):
either either way.
Most of the time, clients willsay, Oh yeah, that felt like a
teenager or college or evenyounger than a teenager.
And usually what follows isthey make an unhealthy decision
because that's what the youngerthem would have done.
And so when I think of agency,most of the time I'm meeting
(21:33):
people that are acting in indistress or in shame or in hurt
or pain.
They're acting out of a youngeragency rather than their
present-day agency.
Now, the rest of the time,they're usually acting out of
their adult's agency.
So that's what comes to mindfor me when I think of agency
and how that shows up in myoffice.
Greg (21:54):
So the differentiation between the parts of their lives
where they're able to show upas an adult with adult-sized
agency versus how they show upin your office with a younger
type of agency.
What explains the split betweenbeing able to show up in my
adult self over here, but moreshowing up as a younger, kind of
(22:18):
a younger experience over here?
Thaddeus (22:20):
So usually it's something, and well, let me back
up.
They can come into my officeand their adult self agency,
right?
Greg (22:26):
Sure.
Thaddeus (22:27):
But they might bring it up.
Well, it took that, it tookthat to get to your office,
right?
Correct.
Right.
Yes, absolutely.
But they'll come in and they'lldescribe something that was
painful or shameful or hurtful,and then how they reacted to it.
I differentiate between reactsreacting and responding, right?
Usually the adultself-response, but our more
(22:49):
immature parts react.
So if they react, if we reactto something usually and they go
to shame, then that's usuallywhen we're going to a younger
part of ourselves.
And that's where we riskresponding or reacting actually
in from a younger place.
I encourage, first of all, Iencourage the client, hey, what
(23:12):
a great opportunity to learnsomething, right?
Well instead of going to shame,let it be your teacher.
And then if they can practicethat, then they're raising their
awareness around, oh, wait aminute, the next time they want
to, you know, eat too much ordrink too much or whatever it is
that they go to to perhapsmedicate or avoid, let that if
(23:34):
they let that be their teacher,then they can say, Oh, well,
maybe maybe I'm going to ayounger place right now.
What are some better choices asan adult that I can make?
And even to have that innerchild work or inner dialogue
too.
I tell them, hey, talk to thatyounger part of you and say,
we're an adult now.
We have power and choice andagency that you didn't, and I
(23:55):
I'm not going to let anythinghappen to you.
I'm going to take care of you.
Greg (23:59):
I I think that makes a lot of sense.
And and the whole reason whywhat you were telling about the
Christmas traditions kind of gotmy brain thinking that way is
because as I think about agency,for me, it's kind of a
developing experience.
You started out with thethought, this is fun.
I love Christmas.
How would it be fun for me andmy friend who also loves
(24:20):
Christmas to do something thatwe'll enjoy?
And then as things starthappening, well, what if this?
Okay, step toward that.
And then what if this and steptowards that?
And then you come to find outalong the way that it's not just
meaningful for the two of you,it's becoming meaningful for a
lot more people.
And then now that's going toinform what do I do with that in
the future?
(24:40):
And when you're talking aboutthe difference between
responding and reacting, I mean,that's a responsive kind of
trajectory through somethingthat may have started out
without a clear vision of if itwas going to go anywhere or
where it's going to go.
And it just reminded me that somany people at the beginning of
a therapeutic process don'thave a clear vision sometimes,
(25:01):
even of why I'm here.
It's just something's off.
There's something that's notworking the way I want it to in
my life.
And so I'm going to asksomebody for help, which is a
very adult thing to do.
But then one of the things thatyou and I emailed about was I
just was sharing like anexperience that I've had.
And I'm not a therapist, butI'm a coach and I will work with
(25:21):
coaching clients.
And I have experienced just thefeeling when I, when I see, I
because I don't know if you'reyou're like this.
Sometimes I feel like I can seea shift happening right in
front of me.
And the adult that came in, allof a sudden they're even like
their body language changes tosomething that looks a lot
younger.
And sometimes the tone of theirvoice changes and their
(25:42):
expression changes.
And when I see that happening,I'll sometimes just kind of
gently point out what I noticedand ask them if they're aware of
something, you know, did younotice something going on?
And sometimes they'll justfreeze.
They've dropped into that placewhere they don't have adult
agency or or even curiosity.
And I have had plenty of timesthat I've found myself feeling
(26:05):
stuck to and feeling veryuncomfortable just sitting in
it.
And and I told you about that,and I kind of asked you about in
the email.
One thing that you said whenyou were emailing me back is I
don't know that I feel ashelpless 17 years in as I did
five years in.
Talk about that if you would.
Like what changed, how was itlike for you in the early years
(26:28):
when you would feel like youwere in the room with someone
who was stuck or panicky orshutting down, how that affected
you and then how it's come toaffect you less and just being
able to be with them?
Thaddeus (26:39):
Yeah, 17 years in I think with anything we do, if we
stay at it long enough, we kindof find our rhythm and our
stick and um things that werevisit.
Because, you know, I while myclients are all individuals,
we're all human.
So we share a lot of the samestruggles and hurts and pains.
(27:00):
So so there's a kind of arhythm to to being a therapist
or a life coach that I think wefind.
Whereas early on, I haven'tfound that rhythm yet.
And I also I just jumped intothe deep end.
I I didn't uh I now I startedwith a group.
I I was invited into a grouppractice where we shared space,
(27:21):
and I could certainly go to someof them if I needed to get some
feedback, but otherwise it wasall me.
And it's just like okay, thereare no training wheels on this.
If I fall, I'd fall.
So a lot of it was justlearning how to hopefully be a
good therapist, learn as you go,and back then feeling like I
(27:43):
had to know what to say, puttingthat pressure on myself.
I have to know what to say.
That's why they're here, right?
As I've gotten older in what Ido, and and just learning from
other people and theconversations with other
counselors or therapists, oreven do staffing some retreats,
like not very similar to theretreats that you put on.
(28:04):
And just getting to work withother life coaches or counselors
in real time on a retreat,let's say.
I've just picked up and soakedup so much over the years that I
think has expanded mycomfortability with myself and
who's with me in the moment.
As far as being stuck, one ofmy professors, I remember
(28:27):
telling me to use whatever theperson is giving you in the
moment.
Don't feel like you have tobring some always bring
something in that they did notintroduce.
And so I've had any number ofclients get stuck in the moment.
And usually now I'm the one tosay it first.
I'll say, Hey, are you stuck?
Because it's kind of obvious.
(28:48):
And they'll say, Yeah, I feelstuck.
And I said, Yeah, I feel stuck,which tells me you're probably
stuck.
And that's okay.
Hey, why don't we just be stucktogether?
And it's kind of likeliterally, if you are stuck in a
vehicle in the mud, right?
And you're rolling back andforth, it's that rocking motion.
I'm like, hey, well, tell meabout stuck.
What's that like for you?
What's it like being stuck inhere, not knowing where to go?
(29:11):
And suddenly the vehicle'smoving again.
Greg (29:14):
Yeah.
So acknowledging the stuckness,talking about the stuckness is
how you get unstuck sometimes.
Thaddeus (29:20):
Correct.
Yeah.
Greg (29:22):
I want to go back to something you said.
There was this feeling I haveto know what to say because
that's what the client expects.
And I can really relate to thatas a coach because when I was
first starting, I put pressureon myself to A, figure out
what's going on, B, figure outwhat they need, and C figure out
(29:44):
how to get them there withinthis hour that we're in.
So, really, a whole lot of theresponsibility for this person's
path forward, I was assuming.
And how in the world did Ithink I was able or responsible
to do those things?
And so when I did someadditional training and
especially in a modality thatthat's a very curious modality,
(30:06):
and starts out with, what do youwant for yourself out of our
time?
Kind of like the question Iasked you at the beginning.
So many of my coaching clientsthat I'd already been working
with said, I thought that wasyour job to tell me.
And I I had to own some ofthat.
Like, yeah, I've I've kind oftaken that on myself, but I
don't know your insides.
Only you, you know, you and Godknow your insides.
(30:29):
And so you're the expert onyou.
And so what are you noticing?
You know, what what are younoticing that's brought you in
here today?
The the peace and the abilityto relax and be with somebody,
because I I mean, that alone fora lot of the people I'm sure
that we both see is somethingthat's fairly new, is someone
who is comfortable just beingwith.
Thaddeus (30:51):
Yeah, I I love that question.
What do you want for our timetogether today?
What I'll ask, I usually do abrief emotions check-in and then
I'll say, is there anywhere youneed to go today in particular?
Because I'll I'll usually havea couple of places I can go from
things we have been working on.
And back to your point ofassumption, there have been
(31:12):
times in the past where I lookat my list and after they do an
emotions check in, I jump rightinto the list and I've gotten
any number of times through theyears, five minutes from the end
of a session, and great workhas been done, but then the
person might say, Oh, and Ireally need to talk about This.
Yeah.
And I'll say, Oh my goodness,that's so much.
(31:33):
That's such such a big, biggerconversation than five minutes.
I'm so sorry.
I should have started byasking, what do you need right
now?
Rather than what I would marchinto again is what we were
already working on.
And so it was a furtherance ofthat.
Still, still good work.
Still good work, but I didn'ttake the time to stop years ago
(31:54):
and ask, hey, what do you reallywant for yourself for today?
And there are times wherepeople say, No, I got nothing.
What do you have?
And then we're usually afterthe races.
Greg (32:08):
But well, and then that comes back to agency, right?
Because if you ask them thatand then they say, Yeah, I've
been thinking about this, andI'm going to say this is what I
want to talk about.
And even in those times whenthey say, I got nothing in
particular, well, looking at thepast sessions, we could talk
about this or this or this.
Do any of those sound like whatyou want?
And now they're it's a multiplechoice question.
(32:30):
But they're still exercisingagency, which is still an
empowerment that you're invitingthem to take on.
Thaddeus (32:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the extreme opposite of allof that is I've learned that if
I'm working harder than theclient, I'm working too hard.
Greg (32:46):
Could you say more about that?
Thaddeus (32:48):
Yeah.
When I said, and then youpicked up on, you know, I I felt
earlier in the first fiveyears, I felt like I've got to
have the answers, or I wasputting pressure on myself.
And I would say the majority ofmy clients through the years,
they're here because they wantto do work, you know, and they
may be scared.
And so sometimes we're ordepressed, and so sometimes it's
a slow go, and that's fine.
(33:09):
But every now and then I've hada client who will sit there and
they will do nothing at all.
I I'll ask, you know, why areyou here?
You know, where do you want togo?
And years ago, I would havepushed and prodded and pulled
teeth and been really exhaustedat the end of a session like
(33:30):
that.
And that's when I realized I'mworking harder than them.
This is their work.
Why am I working so hard?
As far as what I just saidabout exhaustion, I could
literally have five clients in arow, and everyone is just doing
their work and they're involvedand engaged, and I'm energized
at the end of five clients.
And then I could have twoclients and be exhausted if both
(33:54):
of them are not doing theirwork and literally just be done
for the day.
Greg (33:57):
So well, when you talk about realizing that you're
working harder than harder thanthe client, I re I can relate to
that a lot.
I'd love to be able to say thatwhen I struggle with that more,
it was because I cared so muchabout the client that I just was
so passionate about theprogress that I was hoping to be
able to support them in.
But really, it was a whole lotmore about what I was thinking
(34:20):
and feeling about myself.
Right.
So that's a whole, I mean,that's me showing up with a
younger sense of agency andbeing reactive instead of
responsive.
And then just to be able tosay, you know what?
I'm going to trust that if aclient is dissatisfied with the
work they're doing with me, thatit's their responsibility to
tell me.
But it really, when I'm workingharder than they are, it's
(34:42):
pulling me out of even beingable to attune to them, to pay
attention to them, you know, togive them the kind of presence
that's a huge helpful part ofthis.
Thaddeus (34:52):
Yeah, I think I think what's helped me start to turn
that corner is similar to whatyou were just saying.
I I would say in the firstfive, seven years or so when I
was putting that pressure on me,that's when I was working
harder than some clients.
Most of my clients, like Isaid, were there to be engaged
and to and do work.
And it's when I started torealize, oh, this isn't really
(35:15):
on me.
I'm here to try to help themget to their goals.
I'm here to try to help themunpack and feel or whatever it
is they need to do.
I think that's when I began torealize, oh, yeah, I've been
working a lot harder than someof my clients.
So I think it they went kind ofhand in hand.
Greg (35:34):
What's it like for you when you have been working with
someone who has come in with areally, you know, low amount of
capacity for that?
And then you start to see themremaining in their full adult
selves.
They're starting to be able toverbalize intentionality and
what they want for themselvesand start to respond rather than
(35:55):
to react.
Thaddeus (35:56):
Oh, it's oh it's wonderful to see people start to
get some traction and realizeyou know, once they've stretched
a little bit, they can stretcha little bit more, stretch a
little bit more, and theycontinue to grow.
And once they get thatmomentum, it doesn't mean we
don't ever slide back a bit, butno, it's a wonderful feeling
that people really start to seebreakthroughs in their journey
(36:19):
and feel more confident in whoGod has made them to be and why
they're here and they see a wayforward in life, or maybe they
did it before.
It's really it's veryrewarding, it's very honoring,
you know, to be a part of that.
Greg (36:33):
Do they tend to see it for themselves, or is it sometimes
something you have to reflectback and point out?
Hey, are you noticing what I'mnoticing?
Thaddeus (36:41):
It's a both and it just depends on the person.
You know, I I do a lot.
So since 2012, I was trained inas a level two EMDR therapist,
which is uh for those in youraudience that don't know, it's a
it's a trauma-based therapy.
Not just for trauma, but itit's it's often used for trauma.
And so some of my clients whenI'm doing EMDR with them, EMDR
(37:06):
is such I call it a laserfocused therapy.
It just gets right in thereright to it.
And and I've seen just thingscome off of people and they're
different people and and theynotice it and they're like, I
just feel so different and Ifeel so much more confident,
right?
And then there are people whosometimes it's harder for them
(37:26):
to see because if they let's sayhave a slip or they fall back
into something, whatever theirtheir poison is, they'll say
they'll come in feeling shameand they'll say, Ah, but I
haven't I had a slip.
It's been eight months sinceI've done that.
What is wrong?
And I'll even just narrow itdown a little.
Hey, can you tell me a littlebit more about that?
About how long were you engagedin this in the slip, right?
(37:49):
Oh, it could be 20 minutes, itcould be an hour, whatever.
And I'll just and that's when Ireflect back to that.
So let's say it was eightmonths, that they were sober,
and I'll just say, so for sevenmonths, twenty-nine days,
twenty-three hours, and thirtyminutes, you've been sober and
you're focused on this little30-minute window.
Greg (38:10):
Exactly.
Thaddeus (38:11):
But you're missing how much you've grown.
Or another way I'll explainthis, I know this is audio, but
if if your audience can pictureuh almost like a a cyclone or a
tornado, right?
And if you st if if you thinkof that as your journey, rather
than just a linear line movingforward in your journey and your
(38:31):
walk, think of you're startingat the top in your journey and
you're walking circular, butthen you're going downward, like
like a funnel, right?
It's going downward.
And and sometimes guys willcome in and they'll say, I
slipped up and I'm way up here.
They think it puts them back atsquare one at the top.
And I was like, no, you're notat square one.
You're about three levels deepin your work, and you came back
(38:54):
around to whatever it is youstruggle with.
Okay, you but there's somethingto learn there.
You went to a younger part ofyourself, maybe, or it was the
addictive brain taking over, butthere's something to learn, but
you haven't lost all thatground.
Greg (39:09):
Yeah.
Thaddeus (39:09):
And so that that's I would say how sometimes I'm
reflecting it back to them,their growth.
Usually it's when they're indistress that they all growth
they think has gone out thewindow.
Greg (39:18):
And we say similar things in our community too.
And I think that's why havingan attuned therapist, but also
being a part of a supportivecommunity that listens is so
helpful because I've heard I'veheard people talking about
coming back from a slip andrecovery meeting and just
sitting in the circle saying,But you know, I yeah, I drove
(39:39):
into the ditch, but when I gotback on the road, I wasn't back
where I started.
I was back on the road rightwhere I drove off the road, you
know, and I kept going.
When people say things likethat, I hear I and I see other
people perk up and they're like,Oh, so you don't go, is this is
not like shoots and ladderswhere you like you slide, yeah,
slide all the way back to thevery beginning.
(39:59):
No, that's not that's not howit works.
Thaddeus (40:02):
Or like Monopoly, where go directly to jail, do
not pass go, do not collect$200, right?
If you we think we get put intopurgatory.
Greg (40:11):
Yeah.
Well, I love the things thatyou've given us to reflect on.
It takes me back in my mind toa quote that I've come to love,
Victor Frankel.
In between stimulus andresponse, there is a space.
And in that space is my powerto choose my response.
And in my choice is my growthand freedom.
Working with people who havehad compulsive or addictive or
(40:33):
unwanted experiences in theirlife, I mean, the trigger and
the reaction just seems likeit's there's no space in between
it at all.
It's just this happens, andbefore I know it, I'm doing
this.
And walking alongside people tohelp them be able to see, no,
there's it may not seem like alot, but there is a little bitty
bit amount of space in there.
And you get to choose what youdo next.
(40:55):
And and learning how to choosea response rather than be led
away by a reaction.
It's just so life-giving andpowerful to see people start to
believe that and then start toact on it.
Thaddeus (41:07):
Yeah, it's you just said do the next right thing.
It's Ecclesiastes when Solomon,who's called the teacher in
Ecclesiastes, that's why Ialways say, hey, don't let it be
your shame, let it be yourteacher.
There's a section where hetries different things, he
gathers riches, he builds avineyard, grows a vineyard,
(41:27):
creates his own wine,architecture, and wisdom in
academia and women.
And he's very methodical.
And he's in my judgment, he'svery scientific.
He's just and he's testing eachone.
And at the end of everything hetries, in my translation, what
he's saying is, wow, that'samazing.
Look at all this gold andsilver I've got.
(41:47):
This is awesome.
And yet it's not ultimatefulfillment.
Revere God and do the nextright thing.
And then he does it withvineyards and wine.
Oh, look what I've done.
This is amazing.
But there's nothing new underthe sun, right?
And then even with women, youknow, he had 300 wives, 700
concubines.
But he says, Oh, yeah, that'sgreat.
(42:07):
But revere God, do the nextright thing.
And we're also told that arighteous man falls seven times
and gets up again.
It doesn't say a righteous manfalls and gets up a scoundrel
and walks a little further.
Now he's righteous again.
So do the next right thing.
You we always have that choice,even if we've made five bad
choices, because the sixth onecan be the right thing.
Greg (42:29):
And even if we've made five bad choices and are
currently having to live withthe consequences of those five
bad choices, that doesn't meanthat we can't choose the next
right thing, you know, whileliving with the fallout from the
things that I did.
Well, you've given us a lot ofcool things that we've been able
to reflect on.
And I just appreciate youtaking some time, Thaddeus.
(42:51):
It's been great to catch up andto just sort of dive in and let
the conversation go where itdid.
I I think that people sittingin are going to hear a lot of
things that hopefully spur somecuriosity for their own stories.
And if they're not alreadyworking with somebody to help
them kind of navigate their waythrough that, that they'll find
that.
But thanks for giving us achance to put that out there for
(43:13):
people.
Thaddeus (43:13):
Thanks, Steve.
It's been great sitting withyou and your audience and just
thanks for having me.
For sure.
Greg (43:18):
We're we're gonna put some links to the book and some of
the Christmas stuff in Franklinfor people who are interested in
that.
Okay.
I know if anybody is one-tenthas in love with Christmas as my
wife Stacey is, then they'regonna want to check that out.
Thaddeus (43:33):
About five years ago, uh, I forget the name of the
site, but they're a travel site,and Franklin, Tennessee was
third in the world for the placeto visit for Christmas.
I think Germany.
There was a town in Germany.
Anyhow, Franklin, Tennessee.
Greg (43:48):
Well, I've been to downtown Franklin.
It makes perfect sense to me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
God bless you.
Thaddeus (43:55):
You too.
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