November 15, 2023 • 37 mins
Let's start by defining these two types of stories.
Redemption sequences are described as narratives that transition from negative emotion toward positive emotion, while contamination sequences are narratives that transition from positive emotion toward negative emotion.
Imagine how your life might change if you could harness the power of your personal narrative to influence your mental health and overall well-being. In this thought-provoking discussion, we draw on the compelling research of Jonathan Adler to explore the transformative potential of turning pain into purpose. We uncover the fascinating contrast of redemption versus contamination narratives, and how one's life story can significantly shape their reality.
Life is composed of alternate realities and the paths we choose to follow. One such journey took a woman from the precipice of military boot camp to the unexpected discovery of motherhood. Her narrative, stretching over a decade, helps us to understand the weight of our decisions, and how they can redefine our personal stories. Moreover, we venture into the realm of cultural narratives, investigating their major role in shaping our identities, and how therapy can help reconcile the expectations born from these narratives with our personal experiences.
Finally, we navigate the concept of agency, considering how it can guide us toward making the right choices in life. We reflect on the impact of leadership changes within a company, and how these can cause a drastic shift in the work environment. The allure of 'golden handcuffs' is another facet we explore and how this can create a barrier to leaving a job, even when it might be the best course of action. We close by acknowledging that our hardships can be woven into redemption narratives and that we can choose which parts of our stories to emphasize. So, join us for an enlightening conversation that may inspire you to see your own story in a different light.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
You're listening to the what Women Want Today
podcast.
If you love the idea of beingpart of a community of women or
looking to thrive, not justsurvive, you're in the right
place.
Join hosts Terry Cullums andAmanda Keeper each week, as they
bring you topics and guests tohelp you improve your
relationships, your health andyour emotional and spiritual
(00:23):
well-being.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I'm your host, cull host, amanda Keeper, it's not
bad at all.
Actually, this week is supposedto be 60 degrees and sunny for
the next three days.
So, yeah, I was outside thismorning and I'm like, oh, my
(01:02):
walk is going to be so nice.
Yesterday my walk was beautiful.
I went to Clim Arboretum, it'slike, and the flowers were so
beautiful bright, yellow andgreens and I was just loving the
whole fall vibes of living inthe Midwest.
I'm not going to lie, I wasjust and I'm so sorry I'm making
you jealous right now, Terry,because I know you love fall in
(01:23):
the Midwest yeah, but I was justlike I don't know, I felt so
grateful to be living in theMidwest yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh, that's good Not to one-up you, but I went hiking
this morning at that place I'vebeen telling you about that
same Pedro house and we saw twodeer, two deer cows, two deer
cows.
That was pretty cool.
So, yeah, I we do get somecolor change down here in
Southern Arizona, so I did see alot of it when I was in Kansas
(01:55):
City a couple of weekends ago.
So, yes, I do love the Midwest,I love the color change.
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
My sister-in-law was like I just, you know, my
husband just went and got someapples from the apple orchard
and her son just had some dentalwork and he can't eat and I'm
like you should have gotten himthe apple slushy girl.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh, the apple slushy.
That must be a new thing.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
They have apple slushies.
Now it's all the.
It's all the fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So yeah, whenever I'm out somewhere and they have,
like you know, pumpkin whitechocolate frappuccino or
something like you know, thatsounds good in theory, but I
will not want something thatsweet in my coffee.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I love it.
Well, I'm excited for ourpodcast today because this is a
topic that I know Tiri and I weboth feel very strongly about.
We talk about it a lot, and thetopic that we're going to jump
into today is about the storieswe tell ourselves and how the
stories we tell ourselvesimpacts our mental health or our
(02:57):
mental well-being.
So Tiri and I are alwaysthinking of new topics and a lot
of times we get topics from alltheir podcasts and we use that
as yeah, we use that asinspiration for our own podcast.
So today, what inspired us is apodcast from it's called the
Hidden Brain.
It's one of my new favoritesand this podcast is all about
(03:22):
stories of redemption or storiesof contamination, and
specifically, the interviewer isinterviewing in a researcher
named Jonathan Adler and hetalks about his research,
specifically from a study calledLiving Into the Story Agency
(03:42):
and Coherence and NarrativeIdentity Development and Mental
Health Encyclotherapy.
And you know, tiri, we havelooked at Brene Brown's work,
we've looked at John Maxwell'swork and people use different
words to talk about the sameconcept, but I really loved how
they jumped into stories ofcontamination versus redemption
(04:05):
and how we make meaning of whathappens to us in our lives, and
so the premise here is thetheoretical premise is that
things are going to happen to us, bad things are going to happen
to us, and the people that farebetter in life are people that
can tell the story in a waywhere they come out on top as
(04:27):
victorious and turning theirpain into purpose, or the
universe was playing out forthem, not against them, and they
can integrate what happened tothem into their identity in a
way that is positive and that isgoing to serve them in the
future.
(04:48):
And so I know I asked you totake a listen to that podcast.
What was it like for you firstof all listening?
And then did things pop up inyour mind from your own life
experiences where you're like,yeah, I've done that.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Absolutely so.
First of all, audience and myfriend Amanda, I love you so
much but I hate that podcast.
I think it's so funny that youand I are like so on the same
page about, like you said, life.
And then you sent me thatpodcast a few weeks ago when we
were going to talk aboutsavoring and I was like we're
(05:23):
don't really like this podcast,love the content, I don't love,
I don't love the podcast.
So when you sent me the secondone, I was like holy crap, we're
gonna listen.
So but I will say I will say inall fairness, like the first
time I listened to it through Ithought, well, how is this
different from reframing?
Like that's what I hopped in myhead.
(05:43):
How is this different fromreframing, which is something I
try to do a lot, you know try totake a negative and reframe it
and try to look at like how thepositive you know can come out
of that.
But the second time, when Iknew that we were going to
actually talk about this and Iwanted to be able to apply it to
my own life and to how we mightbring value to our audience
(06:04):
with this topic, it is a veryinteresting, it's a very
interesting study.
And then you know, like theuniverse always does, as soon as
you have something that you'rethinking about, you're kind of,
you start to attract all thesestories into your life and, like
everyday conversations become.
(06:25):
Well, was that a redemptivestory or was that a
contamination story?
So I've had many like over thepast few days to both think
about my own life as either oneof those or different parts of
my life, as either one of thoseand also just different things
that people have said to me.
So I have, I have something Iwant to ask you about.
(06:47):
So so this morning and this is aconference, me, my husband, has
the most morbid conversationssometimes, but one of the
conversations, if you're scared,one of the conversations we got
in the past, and one that Ibrought up to my friend Jen this
morning when we were out on ourvery beautiful walk, was would
you rather have your mind gofirst or your body go first?
(07:11):
Like, would you rather have allof your faculties know
everything you know going around?
You know that's going around onaround you and not have your
body to like, follow suit withyour mind, or would you rather
have your mind to sort of go butyour body be okay.
(07:31):
Have you ever thought aboutthis before?
I'm like throwing this at you.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I think that the way that we experience.
I feel like I know what youranswer is going to be and I
think we're going to havedifferent answers, but I think I
would rather have my mind andhave to have how other people
help me get my body around,because through our minds and
through our awareness we're ableto perceive what stimuli is
(07:58):
around us.
And I would hate to like losemoments with my grandkids and my
husband and my students, and Isavor those moments and just I
would not want to lose that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I'm going to be surprised then that that's
exactly what I say.
I say I need my mind, I need tobe able to, because I do get so
stimulated by learning newthings and talking to people
thinking about this.
This weekend we had Brian'scousin and her husband visiting
us and you know like it's veryenjoyable for me, like it's just
(08:34):
as enjoyable for me to sit athome, have very stimulating
conversation, just throwsomething on the grill, bring
out the wine or whatever, as itis to go out to eat somewhere,
because I feel like almost likestaying home, you can get more
intimate and you can haveconversation that you might not
have if you're out in a publicplace.
So I need that kind ofstimulation in order to feel
(08:57):
good about the world around me.
But Jen, she had the opposite.
She's like, hey, if I don'tknow, I don't know If my mind's
gone, like I just I have no ideamy mind's gone, so it's all
good.
But the interesting part aboutthat conversation is you could
(09:20):
almost frame either one of thoseas a redemption story or a
contamination story.
So I'm wondering for you haveyou, over the last few days
since we've been talking aboutthis topic, have you come across
any situations where you couldsee how it could end up being an
either or or?
Do you think they're alwaysusually fall in one box or
(09:40):
another?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I think life happens and there are objective facts
and it's the meaning that wemake about those objective facts
that influences the quality ofour lives.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, it's great.
So I'd say, and I'd probablysay in most situations, that
it's a cumulative effect, but inall of situations, I think that
, yeah, we're always thinking,and I think that's what's so
beautiful about the humancondition is I don't know that
there's any other being outthere.
(10:20):
That's what separates humansfrom every other species, is
that we are meaning makingcreatures and we think about
ourselves and we think aboutexistential questions like
meaning and purpose, and it's asource of suffering, but it also
can be a source of great joy.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, I wrote down a couple of things when I was
trying to dig in a little deeperto our content today.
One of them is that stories arehow we make sense of our lives,
right?
So in that particular podcastthat we both listened to, he
talked about how it depends onwhere you end the chapter, right
(11:00):
?
Yeah, which I thought was likesuper fascinating.
So I, like I tried to think ofa story in my own life where you
know, if you just move thechapter a little bit, the ending
of the chapter a little bit,how it makes a different story.
And so I came up with oneexample yeah, so I'm getting my
hair done the other day and I'veonly gone to my stylist
probably this particular styleis probably I don't know three
(11:21):
or four times.
So we're still at that pointwhere we're asking each other a
lot of questions, you know,making small talk and all that,
and she's thinking about havinganother baby and she said you
know, how did you Find out youwere having twins?
Like, were you totally shockedor was this like something that
ran in your family?
And you were, you were kind oflike Wondering if it might
(11:42):
happen to you, and I said, oh no, you know, when I got pregnant
with my twins.
You know we didn't find outuntil much later that my grandma
had twin brothers that werestill born.
They didn't talk about thatkind of stuff back then you know
so, so I'm telling her thestory.
So I said, um, it's kind of a,it's kind of an interesting
story.
I said, um, I was actuallyGoing to go into the military.
(12:05):
I was gonna go in and oh Gosh,I've lost the word where you go
in and you don't.
You're not full-time, you'rejust sort of like reserves,
thank you.
I was gonna go into reservesbecause I I was not happy in my
marriage.
I had already had one child whowas going to be turning three
and I knew that I was not gonnastay in my marriage.
(12:27):
And I I'm kind of a planner.
I thought I can't just leaveand not have a way to support my
daughter.
Like I'm not gonna leave andnot have a good life for her,
and I'd already kind of beendown that path when she was Long
story, but anyway, I think tothe point.
So I was gonna have a plan.
So I enrolled in the in thereserves, and the place that you
(12:49):
leave from to go to bootcampit's called a mep center and
that mep center, where we lived,was like three hours away.
Now my husband was already inthe military, he's in the Navy
and so, leading up to me goingto bootcamp, I was a mess.
I was a hot mess.
I was gonna be leading myalmost three-year-old daughter
(13:10):
for six weeks to go off tobootcamp and I kept telling
myself it's for the greater good.
It's for the greater good Likethis has a purpose to it.
And the very day that I wasgoing to leave from the mep
center, they routinely run apregnancy test on All women, and
I was pregnant and so I couldnot go into the military.
At the party is this you know,this was August 26, on her third
(13:35):
birthday.
In April, I had gone to mydoctor because I was having a
lot of problems with my cycle.
He put me on the pill and soSomewhere between going to the
doctor at the end of April inAugust 26.
I managed to get pregnant onthe pill.
So I know, crazy, right.
And then I, I, you know I.
(13:55):
So August 26.
I realized, okay, my plan is iscrap, I can't, I can't do this
right, so I'm just got to figureout another way.
So couple months pass and I goin from my ultrasound, like all
women do, and they asked myhusband to leave the room and
they said you know, they movethe little scanner on one side
(14:16):
of your belly and I like, do yousee this?
And I was like, yeah, no, oh,just for some context, I am like
19 years old at this point,about ready to have my third
child.
So I'm still, you know, I'mstill a young girl.
So do you see this on the rightside of my belly?
I'm like, yes, they roll itover to the other side and they
(14:37):
say, do you see this?
And I'm very confused at thispoint and I say, yes, I go, what
is it?
And they're like, well, this isbaby a and this is baby B.
And I was like, uh, what?
Oh, you're having twins.
So not only was I not going tobe able to leave and go into the
(14:58):
military, I was about to becomea mother of three children.
And so if I, if I ended thechapter right there, don't you
think that's, that's acontamination story?
Because that's a story thatturned out Positive, that turned
into a negative, right?
Because now I'm, you know, likethe character in the story
(15:19):
could be hopeless, she couldfeel like she had no hope for
her future, right?
But if you?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
will A mirage.
You just said you're gettingready to get a divorce.
So right, I'm feeling prettyhope.
Now I'm like, oh my gosh, nowI'm trapped.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, and perhaps no solution to this problem, no way
to support myself.
Now I have three kids.
How am I ever gonna get out ofthis?
So, yeah, if you end thechapter there, that's a
contamination story.
If you pass forward the story,I don't know.
I don't even know how manyyears, I'll say 11.
Let's say 11 years total.
Now I'm the owner of aninsurance agency.
(15:57):
I can support myself, I have agreat job.
I have, you know, I have bookclub friends, like I have this
amazing life and you know I'm.
I'm in a whole differentsituation.
So I really liked that part ofthe podcast where he talked
about like, just move the chap,the ending of the chapter a
little bit and you might turn acontamination story into a
(16:18):
redemption story.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, absolutely, it's called punctuation.
It's like where do you wait,right?
And so I?
You know, I so many stories andso many examples are playing
out in my mind right now.
I can tell you that Oftentimeswhen I'm working with clients In
my office for counseling, a lotof people come into counseling
(16:44):
because they are stuck in acontamination story.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Oh yeah, I can miss him.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yes.
So, for example, one personthat I worked with in the past
had these really great dreams ofbecoming a lawyer and he went
through all of the prep work tobecome a lawyer.
He went through all kinds ofschooling, sleepless nights,
(17:10):
didn't get to go out and partylike the rest of his buddies did
.
He was so immersed and obsessedwith his identity of being like
an overachiever, and he wassuper proud.
Everybody had, you know, coinedhim as, like the golden child
in his school.
He was the valedictorian of hisclass, and then he didn't pass
(17:31):
the bar exam.
Imagine, right, right, like.
Imagine how disorienting thatis when your whole identity and
years and years of sacrifice andyou get to this point in your
story that what you thought wasgoing to come true doesn't come
(17:51):
true, right, right.
And so we worked for a longtime, actually in therapy on
identity integration and havingto get to a point where he
realized that I have to let theidentity of becoming a lawyer
die before I can let anythingelse new come in, and that is a
(18:13):
whole grief process.
I mean, you talk about this,talk about the stages of grief,
like denial, like there's no waythat this is possible.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Anger, you know, all different kinds of depression
that were in there for monthsand months.
So then we get to a point in thetherapeutic process where we
start talking about differentavenues and what he could do
after that and he startedtalking about how, when he was
in law school like there was acertain case that he had or not
law school.
When he was in undergrad, he hadworked on a case where he was
(18:47):
trying to help a nonprofitorganization because he had had
a physical illness when he wasyounger and he ended up going
back and connecting with theorganization that worked in the
nonprofit to help him for hisphysical illness and he ended up
being like a project managerand helping people who were
(19:09):
facing like really scarydiagnoses, helping them and
their families get through thathorrible, horrible time, and
like becoming an advocate ofresources and all sorts of
grants and programs that peopledon't understand to help save
lives and then save families'mental wellness.
And there's absolutely likenothing he could ever imagine
(19:33):
himself doing now, Like he's inhis bliss, he's in his joy and
had that door not closed for him, he would have never had the
opportunity to walk throughanother door.
Yeah, Because they've beenlooking for it.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, that's amazing, and I'm thinking about another
thing that they said in thepodcast.
They don't know if I truly hadtime to process enough to wrap
my brain fully around it, but Istarted to process it a little
bit.
And that is the factor of howcultural narratives play into
(20:08):
the stories we tell, and theonly one that I could like
really, you know, kind of liketry to try to place myself in
the story was so the culturalnarrative in America is probably
one of you grow up as a woman.
You grow up.
You either seek furthereducation or you don't.
(20:30):
You get married by a certainage.
You have children by a certainage.
So that's the culturalnarrative, right?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
So if you're a woman, it's also a generational
narrative because it's changednow.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
True, very true.
But if you end up in asituation where you can't have
babies, yes, so then like youcould almost tell yourself that
you failed because culturallythat's what's sort of the normal
thing to do, and so you can getkind of caught up in that
cultural narrative and yourstory can become of one of I'm
(21:06):
not valuable, I did somethingwrong, you know I'm.
There's something wrong with mebecause I can't do this thing
that I'm supposed to quote,unquote, supposed to do.
Can you think of any otherexamples of like cultural
narratives that come into factorin the stories that we tell
(21:27):
ourselves?
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, I mean it goes back to career, because I have
other clients that are fromother cultures, and in a lot of
other cultures specifically, I'mthinking of like Indian culture
, sri Lankan culture, likeyou're either a doctor or you're
a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yes, that's what Jay Shetty talks about.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, like you're a lawyer and so if you don't
become one of those things, likeyou have a contamination story
that not only are you putting onyourself, but you're whole and
three it's projecting onto youas well.
Yeah, absolutely, and you haveto negotiate and integrate the
fact that you're going to be adisappointment to your elders
(22:08):
and your whole vision that youhad for yourself is going to be
thrown off course.
And now you're totallydisoriented in searching for an
identity and feel like a failureat the same time.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the other things that Iwrote down was people who
believe their lives aremeaningful tend to tell stories
defined by growth, communion andagency.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yes, I love the word agency.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I do too.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Agency means I wrote this, I worked on this with a
client and I wrote this down.
The universe isn't happening toyou, the universe is happening
for you and people that, andpeople that feel like they have
agency.
They are more likely to godownstream and to let life
unfold and then sort of seewhere they can pivot and twist
(23:01):
and turn to make the next rightchoice for them, and not go
upstream, which is decide thatsomebody else is the sort of
author of their story andthey're just like a character in
the play and they haveinfluence over the outcome of
the story.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Absolutely.
Yep Love that.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah.
So, like I do a lot, I keepthinking about career counseling
, like a lot of times, peoplewill come in and there's new
leadership and I'm sure you cantotally relate to this, terry.
Then there's new leadership ina company and people have
enjoyed these like glory yearswhere they had this brilliant
leadership and everybody, theculture was so like fulfilling
(23:43):
and it was healthy and peoplehad psychological safety and
people were appreciated andacknowledged.
And then you have newleadership come in and all of
those things that you enjoyed aspart of your reality are now
changed.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
In many ways, it is very real.
Your day-to-day life andenvironment has been
contaminated.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I've actually experienced it the other way as
well, where life was verystressful when I very first
became an operations manager forthe theme insurance company
that I owned my agency through.
When I very first became anoperations manager, the woman
that I was in charge I kind ofgive her credit for a lot of my
stomach issues and the beginningof my sleep issues because you
(24:34):
felt like you walked oneggshells around her all the
time.
You never knew when she wasgoing to go off about something
and your life was not your own.
I would travel to Madison,wisconsin, from Arizona, at
least once a month andoftentimes, because it was so
close to where I grew up andwhere you live and my daughters
and other friends and family, Iwould make plans to see people
(24:57):
while I was there.
It was kind of a perk of the job.
I mean, I had trouble a lot,but I also had some perks and I
would never know if she wouldsay we're working till 10
o'clock tonight, be at theoffice from 7 or 8 o'clock in
the morning till 10 o'clock atnight, because she would not
allow for any kind of work-lifebalance or agency to make your
(25:19):
own work schedule and yeah, soI've had the opposite to be true
as well, and then a new leadercome in and you're I mean, it
was like a fairy tale suddenly,because you had this leader who
really understood how tomotivate people and how to make
a different type of culture inthe workplace.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So it's interesting that you use that example
because those are very objectivefacts and I don't want people
to think that we are just likeoh well, stay in that
environment where you end upwith ulcers and your boss wants
you to work 10 hours a day andjust think positive.
This isn't about like, this isnot think positive and be
(26:00):
Pollyanna, this is okay.
Something's happened in thestory that's punctuated.
The story your agency is.
Are you telling yourself Ican't leave this job, I'm never
going to make this amount ofmoney.
I have to have this amount ofmoney.
I'll totally lose my identity,I'll never be happy.
Are you pigeon-wieldingyourself into like I have to
stay in this particular job, oris this a story of redemption?
(26:25):
I took my authorship back and Iwas like I have a choice whether
or not I'm going to work here,and I decided I'm not going to
work here.
That's just one example.
And I ended up for this companyand I ended up more fulfilled
than I ever thought I was.
But agency is when you knowyour own value and make meaning
and purpose because like, okay,the objective fact is this woman
(26:49):
is not a kind boss and not anemotionally intelligent boss,
and those are the objectivefacts Now.
What I do with that informationand how I make meaning and what
my next move is speaks to if Ifeel like I have agency in my
own life.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Now, that's easier said than done.
It's not easy just to leave.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
But it will, especially if you you know you
have what they call the goldenhandcuffs.
You know, like my husband isthree and a half years away from
retirement, if he suddenly gotnew leadership and at his
company, the chances of himleaving or us moving again are
small and much smaller.
So I'm glad you brought I'mglad you brought that point up.
(27:36):
And also it's interesting thatwhen we do tell a story it's not
all fact.
There are objective things inthe story, right, and we can
choose as we look back on ourlife.
So you know, not as recent pastbut like look back a little
farther in our life, we canchoose what parts of the story
(27:59):
we want to emphasize so that wecan either create the
contamination story or theredemption story, right.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yes, yeah, yeah, you know, actually I think of you in
a lot of these differentsituations.
Like you have really faced alot of hardship over the last I
don't know, I want to say likeeight or nine years, right.
Like you have, you've basicallyhad to recreate, redefine your
(28:28):
home, what you even call homeMany times, and it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
No.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
You know you went from like this magnificent house
that you built together and gotmarried at, to moving out into
a piece of property or a pieceof land that you put up, a
makeshift barn that became youknow something that didn't have
windows, that you had to make doright.
I remember as you were goingthrough that moving process you
were selling a bunch of yourclothes you're getting rid of
(28:55):
like the vast majority of yourmaterial belongings.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I did.
I think I got rid of like 75%because a lot of my clothes were
, you know, business,professional clothes and I
didn't see a need for them wherewe were calling.
So you know, and a lot ofdecorative things, because my
mindset was who knows if they'regoing to work in the next place
I live, so I'm not going todrag these things all over the
(29:19):
place with me.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
So yeah, I think that's a really special to you.
Like you carefully choose yourthings, you're an aesthetically
like, very aware person, so Iknow that there was attachment
to those things as well.
And that's the thing aboutcontamination and redemption
stories is like there are realattachments that come with those
choices of making meaning.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, and so.
So that's great, because that'sthat that makes me think of
this.
So this is a little bit of areframe, but it's also a story
that we tell ourselves to islike so if you were to put me
and Brian in this story and askus to tell it, his story would
be well, we can always get morethings.
We will always make more money.
(30:04):
Well, we can always just getnew things.
Where my story comes from, alot of things that have happened
in the past and that feeling oflack, like well, what if we
don't have enough to get newthings?
What if this is the last time Ihave this beautiful, you know,
whatever vase or whatever it was?
So even putting people in thesame story but asking them to
(30:28):
tell it is can be very, you know, redemptive versus
contamination as well.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Right, I absolutely love that.
You just said that, becausewhen you, when you counsel
someone and you ask them to telltheir story, usually their
story is actually not even thecurrent story, it's the
childhood story.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Oh, I just heard that from somebody else recently too
.
Like your marriage, yourmarriage can be a lot about.
Like just things from yourchildhood just placed into the.
You know the current storyright.
Yeah, so go back to your storyso my story was grew up yeah,
grew up with lack and notknowing if you're going to have
(31:11):
things and kind of hoardingthings because you didn't know
if you were ever going to getthem again.
Like I wasn't the kid who gottheir Halloween candy or their
Easter basket and ate it allreally fast.
I was like no, I got to staythis because I don't know when
I'm going to get this again.
So you know, as as much as Ifeel like I've grown and I have
some of that still sticks withme, you know, and so you know
(31:34):
what you said is I'm I'm verychoosy about what I select from
my home.
Part of it is the aesthetic andpart of it is am I willing to
spend the money on that, youknow.
So, yeah, there's always alittle bit more of the story.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, and in those feelings that come up in the
situations in our adult life,the feeling of like, when that
boss came in and she like wasyou know, you're here 10 hours
and that's it, and I don't careif you've eaten today or what
you had planned for the weekendor any other plans, like it's,
it's my priority and you'regoing to follow mine.
(32:10):
Did that feel like anythingfrom your childhood?
I know you probably didn'tthink about it, but did it feel
like any other relationship fromyour childhood that you can
connect it to?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I mean, you're right, I probably didn't put two and
two together at the time.
But yes, I've always just kindof like, didn't speak up for
myself and didn't ask for thatboundary, you know, and so I
didn't feel like it was evenpossible to ask for what I
needed, and that's that's arepetitive theme, you know from
my childhood Not to just tosilence yourself and and stay
(32:40):
out of trouble.
So just don't ask for what youneed or what you want.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Right, Right, so it's so much that we could dig so
deep into it.
I really loved all the researchthat they cited.
If the listeners are interestedin listening to this podcast or
checking out the transcript,what I really love is that they
also look at how people who havereally bad problems with
alcohol, how they tell the storyof taking their last drink.
(33:07):
Yeah, Some of the research thatthey cited.
They actually looked at peoplethat were alcoholics and how
they told the story of theirlast drink as either
contamination or redemption.
They also looked at chronicallystressed adults who had
children with special needs andhow they told the story of, you
(33:28):
know, basically losing theirlife to take care of their
special needs child or is itsomething that empowered them?
One person that they cited itwas really interesting.
One person that they cited itsaid for one person her special
needs child taught her a lotabout who she was as a person,
how she was open, how she wasnot open to people and things
(33:50):
and how she felt like havingthis challenging parenting
experience really helped reshapewho she was as a person, what
it meant for her to not only bea parent but also a human in
relation to other human beingsthat she loved dearly, and what
happened was through that herempathy for other people, and
what used to be an awareness ofand a focus on self, really
(34:11):
started becoming focus on othersas just a way of being in the
world, and she was very proud ofthat.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
So I guess what's the message for the listeners today
?
What would we say as a resultof this?
Be aware of the stories thatyou're telling yourself and
where you put the intuitionwhere you're putting the
punctuation and be aware thatwhere you punctuate your story
impacts your mental health andwell-being.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Absolutely yeah.
We started talking about doingsomething together years ago and
we said there is power in yourstory, and that was in like 2018
.
And you know we're at that endof 2023.
And it's just as relevant todayas it was in 2018.
And we first started talkingabout it.
You know our story could havebeen, our story could have ended
(35:03):
.
You know the full book couldhave ended.
You know we're.
We grew up in a trailer park,we grew up in abusive homes, we
grew up with some level ofneglect, but the power of our
story is that that wasn't theend of our story.
Our story continues andcontinues and I love to say this
, like you're the author yeah,you get to write the next line,
(35:27):
you get to write the nextchapter and you get to write the
ending of your book.
Don't let somebody else holdthe pen.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Absolutely.
I love that quote.
Don't let somebody else holdthe pen of your story.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Well, I'm going to encourage listeners, even though
I said I don't like the podcast, I'm going to encourage them to
go listen to episode.
I'll make sure to include it intoday's show notes.
I think this is a reallyimportant topic.
Probably to reflect on a littlebit is you know where have you
ended the chapters in your story?
And if you just moved thechapter ending just a little bit
(36:03):
differently in a different spot, you know, can you reframe that
story and turn it into aredemption story versus a
contamination story?
That's my challenge for thelisteners today.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Absolutely, and please go to our Facebook page
and other ways of connecting onInstagram, and if you have a
story of redemption that you'dlike to share with us, we'd love
to hear it.
Have a great day.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Have a great day.
Amanda, I don't know if thisever happens to you, but I
sometimes will learn somethingreally cool on a podcast, on a
YouTube video audiobook,whatever, I think I'm going to
remember it and then I forget.
Does that ever happen to you?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, I call it brain after 40 all the time.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Well, that's what we'll officially call it.
When we come up with something,do you want to introduce it?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Sure, it's from an app called Quick Jim Quick, and
it's an acronym called fast.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, and the F stands for Facebook.
So we're inviting youofficially right now to come
over and join us on Facebook.
Get involved with the community, share your favorite episodes
with your friends on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yeah, the A is go ahead and take an action, so you
can't remember anything if youdon't act.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And F is for subscribe.
Make sure you're subscribed toour YouTube channel.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And then T is teach.
Teach what you've learned tosomebody else.
Share the love.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
All right, we hope that works for you.
Thank you for joining us.
We'll see you next week, so bye.
You're listening to the what Women Want Today
podcast.
If you love the idea of beingpart of a community of women or
looking to thrive, not justsurvive, you're in the right
place.
Join hosts Terry Cullums andAmanda Keeper each week, as they
bring you topics and guests tohelp you improve your
relationships, your health andyour emotional and spiritual
(00:23):
well-being.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I'm your host, cull host, amanda Keeper, it's not
bad at all.
Actually, this week is supposedto be 60 degrees and sunny for
the next three days.
So, yeah, I was outside thismorning and I'm like, oh, my
(01:02):
walk is going to be so nice.
Yesterday my walk was beautiful.
I went to Clim Arboretum, it'slike, and the flowers were so
beautiful bright, yellow andgreens and I was just loving the
whole fall vibes of living inthe Midwest.
I'm not going to lie, I wasjust and I'm so sorry I'm making
you jealous right now, Terry,because I know you love fall in
(01:23):
the Midwest yeah, but I was justlike I don't know, I felt so
grateful to be living in theMidwest yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh, that's good Not to one-up you, but I went hiking
this morning at that place I'vebeen telling you about that
same Pedro house and we saw twodeer, two deer cows, two deer
cows.
That was pretty cool.
So, yeah, I we do get somecolor change down here in
Southern Arizona, so I did see alot of it when I was in Kansas
(01:55):
City a couple of weekends ago.
So, yes, I do love the Midwest,I love the color change.
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
My sister-in-law was like I just, you know, my
husband just went and got someapples from the apple orchard
and her son just had some dentalwork and he can't eat and I'm
like you should have gotten himthe apple slushy girl.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh, the apple slushy.
That must be a new thing.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
They have apple slushies.
Now it's all the.
It's all the fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So yeah, whenever I'm out somewhere and they have,
like you know, pumpkin whitechocolate frappuccino or
something like you know, thatsounds good in theory, but I
will not want something thatsweet in my coffee.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I love it.
Well, I'm excited for ourpodcast today because this is a
topic that I know Tiri and I weboth feel very strongly about.
We talk about it a lot, and thetopic that we're going to jump
into today is about the storieswe tell ourselves and how the
stories we tell ourselvesimpacts our mental health or our
(02:57):
mental well-being.
So Tiri and I are alwaysthinking of new topics and a lot
of times we get topics from alltheir podcasts and we use that
as yeah, we use that asinspiration for our own podcast.
So today, what inspired us is apodcast from it's called the
Hidden Brain.
It's one of my new favoritesand this podcast is all about
(03:22):
stories of redemption or storiesof contamination, and
specifically, the interviewer isinterviewing in a researcher
named Jonathan Adler and hetalks about his research,
specifically from a study calledLiving Into the Story Agency
(03:42):
and Coherence and NarrativeIdentity Development and Mental
Health Encyclotherapy.
And you know, tiri, we havelooked at Brene Brown's work,
we've looked at John Maxwell'swork and people use different
words to talk about the sameconcept, but I really loved how
they jumped into stories ofcontamination versus redemption
(04:05):
and how we make meaning of whathappens to us in our lives, and
so the premise here is thetheoretical premise is that
things are going to happen to us, bad things are going to happen
to us, and the people that farebetter in life are people that
can tell the story in a waywhere they come out on top as
(04:27):
victorious and turning theirpain into purpose, or the
universe was playing out forthem, not against them, and they
can integrate what happened tothem into their identity in a
way that is positive and that isgoing to serve them in the
future.
(04:48):
And so I know I asked you totake a listen to that podcast.
What was it like for you firstof all listening?
And then did things pop up inyour mind from your own life
experiences where you're like,yeah, I've done that.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Absolutely so.
First of all, audience and myfriend Amanda, I love you so
much but I hate that podcast.
I think it's so funny that youand I are like so on the same
page about, like you said, life.
And then you sent me thatpodcast a few weeks ago when we
were going to talk aboutsavoring and I was like we're
(05:23):
don't really like this podcast,love the content, I don't love,
I don't love the podcast.
So when you sent me the secondone, I was like holy crap, we're
gonna listen.
So but I will say I will say inall fairness, like the first
time I listened to it through Ithought, well, how is this
different from reframing?
Like that's what I hopped in myhead.
(05:43):
How is this different fromreframing, which is something I
try to do a lot, you know try totake a negative and reframe it
and try to look at like how thepositive you know can come out
of that.
But the second time, when Iknew that we were going to
actually talk about this and Iwanted to be able to apply it to
my own life and to how we mightbring value to our audience
(06:04):
with this topic, it is a veryinteresting, it's a very
interesting study.
And then you know, like theuniverse always does, as soon as
you have something that you'rethinking about, you're kind of,
you start to attract all thesestories into your life and, like
everyday conversations become.
(06:25):
Well, was that a redemptivestory or was that a
contamination story?
So I've had many like over thepast few days to both think
about my own life as either oneof those or different parts of
my life, as either one of thoseand also just different things
that people have said to me.
So I have, I have something Iwant to ask you about.
(06:47):
So so this morning and this is aconference, me, my husband, has
the most morbid conversationssometimes, but one of the
conversations, if you're scared,one of the conversations we got
in the past, and one that Ibrought up to my friend Jen this
morning when we were out on ourvery beautiful walk, was would
you rather have your mind gofirst or your body go first?
(07:11):
Like, would you rather have allof your faculties know
everything you know going around?
You know that's going around onaround you and not have your
body to like, follow suit withyour mind, or would you rather
have your mind to sort of go butyour body be okay.
(07:31):
Have you ever thought aboutthis before?
I'm like throwing this at you.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I think that the way that we experience.
I feel like I know what youranswer is going to be and I
think we're going to havedifferent answers, but I think I
would rather have my mind andhave to have how other people
help me get my body around,because through our minds and
through our awareness we're ableto perceive what stimuli is
(07:58):
around us.
And I would hate to like losemoments with my grandkids and my
husband and my students, and Isavor those moments and just I
would not want to lose that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I'm going to be surprised then that that's
exactly what I say.
I say I need my mind, I need tobe able to, because I do get so
stimulated by learning newthings and talking to people
thinking about this.
This weekend we had Brian'scousin and her husband visiting
us and you know like it's veryenjoyable for me, like it's just
(08:34):
as enjoyable for me to sit athome, have very stimulating
conversation, just throwsomething on the grill, bring
out the wine or whatever, as itis to go out to eat somewhere,
because I feel like almost likestaying home, you can get more
intimate and you can haveconversation that you might not
have if you're out in a publicplace.
So I need that kind ofstimulation in order to feel
(08:57):
good about the world around me.
But Jen, she had the opposite.
She's like, hey, if I don'tknow, I don't know If my mind's
gone, like I just I have no ideamy mind's gone, so it's all
good.
But the interesting part aboutthat conversation is you could
(09:20):
almost frame either one of thoseas a redemption story or a
contamination story.
So I'm wondering for you haveyou, over the last few days
since we've been talking aboutthis topic, have you come across
any situations where you couldsee how it could end up being an
either or or?
Do you think they're alwaysusually fall in one box or
(09:40):
another?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I think life happens and there are objective facts
and it's the meaning that wemake about those objective facts
that influences the quality ofour lives.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, it's great.
So I'd say, and I'd probablysay in most situations, that
it's a cumulative effect, but inall of situations, I think that
, yeah, we're always thinking,and I think that's what's so
beautiful about the humancondition is I don't know that
there's any other being outthere.
(10:20):
That's what separates humansfrom every other species, is
that we are meaning makingcreatures and we think about
ourselves and we think aboutexistential questions like
meaning and purpose, and it's asource of suffering, but it also
can be a source of great joy.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, I wrote down a couple of things when I was
trying to dig in a little deeperto our content today.
One of them is that stories arehow we make sense of our lives,
right?
So in that particular podcastthat we both listened to, he
talked about how it depends onwhere you end the chapter, right
(11:00):
?
Yeah, which I thought was likesuper fascinating.
So I, like I tried to think ofa story in my own life where you
know, if you just move thechapter a little bit, the ending
of the chapter a little bit,how it makes a different story.
And so I came up with oneexample yeah, so I'm getting my
hair done the other day and I'veonly gone to my stylist
probably this particular styleis probably I don't know three
(11:21):
or four times.
So we're still at that pointwhere we're asking each other a
lot of questions, you know,making small talk and all that,
and she's thinking about havinganother baby and she said you
know, how did you Find out youwere having twins?
Like, were you totally shockedor was this like something that
ran in your family?
And you were, you were kind oflike Wondering if it might
(11:42):
happen to you, and I said, oh no, you know, when I got pregnant
with my twins.
You know we didn't find outuntil much later that my grandma
had twin brothers that werestill born.
They didn't talk about thatkind of stuff back then you know
so, so I'm telling her thestory.
So I said, um, it's kind of a,it's kind of an interesting
story.
I said, um, I was actuallyGoing to go into the military.
(12:05):
I was gonna go in and oh Gosh,I've lost the word where you go
in and you don't.
You're not full-time, you'rejust sort of like reserves,
thank you.
I was gonna go into reservesbecause I I was not happy in my
marriage.
I had already had one child whowas going to be turning three
and I knew that I was not gonnastay in my marriage.
(12:27):
And I I'm kind of a planner.
I thought I can't just leaveand not have a way to support my
daughter.
Like I'm not gonna leave andnot have a good life for her,
and I'd already kind of beendown that path when she was Long
story, but anyway, I think tothe point.
So I was gonna have a plan.
So I enrolled in the in thereserves, and the place that you
(12:49):
leave from to go to bootcampit's called a mep center and
that mep center, where we lived,was like three hours away.
Now my husband was already inthe military, he's in the Navy
and so, leading up to me goingto bootcamp, I was a mess.
I was a hot mess.
I was gonna be leading myalmost three-year-old daughter
(13:10):
for six weeks to go off tobootcamp and I kept telling
myself it's for the greater good.
It's for the greater good Likethis has a purpose to it.
And the very day that I wasgoing to leave from the mep
center, they routinely run apregnancy test on All women, and
I was pregnant and so I couldnot go into the military.
At the party is this you know,this was August 26, on her third
(13:35):
birthday.
In April, I had gone to mydoctor because I was having a
lot of problems with my cycle.
He put me on the pill and soSomewhere between going to the
doctor at the end of April inAugust 26.
I managed to get pregnant onthe pill.
So I know, crazy, right.
And then I, I, you know I.
(13:55):
So August 26.
I realized, okay, my plan is iscrap, I can't, I can't do this
right, so I'm just got to figureout another way.
So couple months pass and I goin from my ultrasound, like all
women do, and they asked myhusband to leave the room and
they said you know, they movethe little scanner on one side
(14:16):
of your belly and I like, do yousee this?
And I was like, yeah, no, oh,just for some context, I am like
19 years old at this point,about ready to have my third
child.
So I'm still, you know, I'mstill a young girl.
So do you see this on the rightside of my belly?
I'm like, yes, they roll itover to the other side and they
(14:37):
say, do you see this?
And I'm very confused at thispoint and I say, yes, I go, what
is it?
And they're like, well, this isbaby a and this is baby B.
And I was like, uh, what?
Oh, you're having twins.
So not only was I not going tobe able to leave and go into the
(14:58):
military, I was about to becomea mother of three children.
And so if I, if I ended thechapter right there, don't you
think that's, that's acontamination story?
Because that's a story thatturned out Positive, that turned
into a negative, right?
Because now I'm, you know, likethe character in the story
(15:19):
could be hopeless, she couldfeel like she had no hope for
her future, right?
But if you?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
will A mirage.
You just said you're gettingready to get a divorce.
So right, I'm feeling prettyhope.
Now I'm like, oh my gosh, nowI'm trapped.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, and perhaps no solution to this problem, no way
to support myself.
Now I have three kids.
How am I ever gonna get out ofthis?
So, yeah, if you end thechapter there, that's a
contamination story.
If you pass forward the story,I don't know.
I don't even know how manyyears, I'll say 11.
Let's say 11 years total.
Now I'm the owner of aninsurance agency.
(15:57):
I can support myself, I have agreat job.
I have, you know, I have bookclub friends, like I have this
amazing life and you know I'm.
I'm in a whole differentsituation.
So I really liked that part ofthe podcast where he talked
about like, just move the chap,the ending of the chapter a
little bit and you might turn acontamination story into a
(16:18):
redemption story.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, absolutely, it's called punctuation.
It's like where do you wait,right?
And so I?
You know, I so many stories andso many examples are playing
out in my mind right now.
I can tell you that Oftentimeswhen I'm working with clients In
my office for counseling, a lotof people come into counseling
(16:44):
because they are stuck in acontamination story.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Oh yeah, I can miss him.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yes.
So, for example, one personthat I worked with in the past
had these really great dreams ofbecoming a lawyer and he went
through all of the prep work tobecome a lawyer.
He went through all kinds ofschooling, sleepless nights,
(17:10):
didn't get to go out and partylike the rest of his buddies did
.
He was so immersed and obsessedwith his identity of being like
an overachiever, and he wassuper proud.
Everybody had, you know, coinedhim as, like the golden child
in his school.
He was the valedictorian of hisclass, and then he didn't pass
(17:31):
the bar exam.
Imagine, right, right, like.
Imagine how disorienting thatis when your whole identity and
years and years of sacrifice andyou get to this point in your
story that what you thought wasgoing to come true doesn't come
(17:51):
true, right, right.
And so we worked for a longtime, actually in therapy on
identity integration and havingto get to a point where he
realized that I have to let theidentity of becoming a lawyer
die before I can let anythingelse new come in, and that is a
(18:13):
whole grief process.
I mean, you talk about this,talk about the stages of grief,
like denial, like there's no waythat this is possible.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Anger, you know, all different kinds of depression
that were in there for monthsand months.
So then we get to a point in thetherapeutic process where we
start talking about differentavenues and what he could do
after that and he startedtalking about how, when he was
in law school like there was acertain case that he had or not
law school.
When he was in undergrad, he hadworked on a case where he was
(18:47):
trying to help a nonprofitorganization because he had had
a physical illness when he wasyounger and he ended up going
back and connecting with theorganization that worked in the
nonprofit to help him for hisphysical illness and he ended up
being like a project managerand helping people who were
(19:09):
facing like really scarydiagnoses, helping them and
their families get through thathorrible, horrible time, and
like becoming an advocate ofresources and all sorts of
grants and programs that peopledon't understand to help save
lives and then save families'mental wellness.
And there's absolutely likenothing he could ever imagine
(19:33):
himself doing now, Like he's inhis bliss, he's in his joy and
had that door not closed for him, he would have never had the
opportunity to walk throughanother door.
Yeah, Because they've beenlooking for it.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, that's amazing, and I'm thinking about another
thing that they said in thepodcast.
They don't know if I truly hadtime to process enough to wrap
my brain fully around it, but Istarted to process it a little
bit.
And that is the factor of howcultural narratives play into
(20:08):
the stories we tell, and theonly one that I could like
really, you know, kind of liketry to try to place myself in
the story was so the culturalnarrative in America is probably
one of you grow up as a woman.
You grow up.
You either seek furthereducation or you don't.
(20:30):
You get married by a certainage.
You have children by a certainage.
So that's the culturalnarrative, right?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
So if you're a woman, it's also a generational
narrative because it's changednow.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
True, very true.
But if you end up in asituation where you can't have
babies, yes, so then like youcould almost tell yourself that
you failed because culturallythat's what's sort of the normal
thing to do, and so you can getkind of caught up in that
cultural narrative and yourstory can become of one of I'm
(21:06):
not valuable, I did somethingwrong, you know I'm.
There's something wrong with mebecause I can't do this thing
that I'm supposed to quote,unquote, supposed to do.
Can you think of any otherexamples of like cultural
narratives that come into factorin the stories that we tell
(21:27):
ourselves?
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, I mean it goes back to career, because I have
other clients that are fromother cultures, and in a lot of
other cultures specifically, I'mthinking of like Indian culture
, sri Lankan culture, likeyou're either a doctor or you're
a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yes, that's what Jay Shetty talks about.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, like you're a lawyer and so if you don't
become one of those things, likeyou have a contamination story
that not only are you putting onyourself, but you're whole and
three it's projecting onto youas well.
Yeah, absolutely, and you haveto negotiate and integrate the
fact that you're going to be adisappointment to your elders
(22:08):
and your whole vision that youhad for yourself is going to be
thrown off course.
And now you're totallydisoriented in searching for an
identity and feel like a failureat the same time.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the other things that Iwrote down was people who
believe their lives aremeaningful tend to tell stories
defined by growth, communion andagency.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yes, I love the word agency.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I do too.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Agency means I wrote this, I worked on this with a
client and I wrote this down.
The universe isn't happening toyou, the universe is happening
for you and people that, andpeople that feel like they have
agency.
They are more likely to godownstream and to let life
unfold and then sort of seewhere they can pivot and twist
(23:01):
and turn to make the next rightchoice for them, and not go
upstream, which is decide thatsomebody else is the sort of
author of their story andthey're just like a character in
the play and they haveinfluence over the outcome of
the story.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Absolutely.
Yep Love that.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah.
So, like I do a lot, I keepthinking about career counseling
, like a lot of times, peoplewill come in and there's new
leadership and I'm sure you cantotally relate to this, terry.
Then there's new leadership ina company and people have
enjoyed these like glory yearswhere they had this brilliant
leadership and everybody, theculture was so like fulfilling
(23:43):
and it was healthy and peoplehad psychological safety and
people were appreciated andacknowledged.
And then you have newleadership come in and all of
those things that you enjoyed aspart of your reality are now
changed.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
In many ways, it is very real.
Your day-to-day life andenvironment has been
contaminated.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I've actually experienced it the other way as
well, where life was verystressful when I very first
became an operations manager forthe theme insurance company
that I owned my agency through.
When I very first became anoperations manager, the woman
that I was in charge I kind ofgive her credit for a lot of my
stomach issues and the beginningof my sleep issues because you
(24:34):
felt like you walked oneggshells around her all the
time.
You never knew when she wasgoing to go off about something
and your life was not your own.
I would travel to Madison,wisconsin, from Arizona, at
least once a month andoftentimes, because it was so
close to where I grew up andwhere you live and my daughters
and other friends and family, Iwould make plans to see people
(24:57):
while I was there.
It was kind of a perk of the job.
I mean, I had trouble a lot,but I also had some perks and I
would never know if she wouldsay we're working till 10
o'clock tonight, be at theoffice from 7 or 8 o'clock in
the morning till 10 o'clock atnight, because she would not
allow for any kind of work-lifebalance or agency to make your
(25:19):
own work schedule and yeah, soI've had the opposite to be true
as well, and then a new leadercome in and you're I mean, it
was like a fairy tale suddenly,because you had this leader who
really understood how tomotivate people and how to make
a different type of culture inthe workplace.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So it's interesting that you use that example
because those are very objectivefacts and I don't want people
to think that we are just likeoh well, stay in that
environment where you end upwith ulcers and your boss wants
you to work 10 hours a day andjust think positive.
This isn't about like, this isnot think positive and be
(26:00):
Pollyanna, this is okay.
Something's happened in thestory that's punctuated.
The story your agency is.
Are you telling yourself Ican't leave this job, I'm never
going to make this amount ofmoney.
I have to have this amount ofmoney.
I'll totally lose my identity,I'll never be happy.
Are you pigeon-wieldingyourself into like I have to
stay in this particular job, oris this a story of redemption?
(26:25):
I took my authorship back and Iwas like I have a choice whether
or not I'm going to work here,and I decided I'm not going to
work here.
That's just one example.
And I ended up for this companyand I ended up more fulfilled
than I ever thought I was.
But agency is when you knowyour own value and make meaning
and purpose because like, okay,the objective fact is this woman
(26:49):
is not a kind boss and not anemotionally intelligent boss,
and those are the objectivefacts Now.
What I do with that informationand how I make meaning and what
my next move is speaks to if Ifeel like I have agency in my
own life.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Now, that's easier said than done.
It's not easy just to leave.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
But it will, especially if you you know you
have what they call the goldenhandcuffs.
You know, like my husband isthree and a half years away from
retirement, if he suddenly gotnew leadership and at his
company, the chances of himleaving or us moving again are
small and much smaller.
So I'm glad you brought I'mglad you brought that point up.
(27:36):
And also it's interesting thatwhen we do tell a story it's not
all fact.
There are objective things inthe story, right, and we can
choose as we look back on ourlife.
So you know, not as recent pastbut like look back a little
farther in our life, we canchoose what parts of the story
(27:59):
we want to emphasize so that wecan either create the
contamination story or theredemption story, right.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yes, yeah, yeah, you know, actually I think of you in
a lot of these differentsituations.
Like you have really faced alot of hardship over the last I
don't know, I want to say likeeight or nine years, right.
Like you have, you've basicallyhad to recreate, redefine your
(28:28):
home, what you even call homeMany times, and it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
No.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
You know you went from like this magnificent house
that you built together and gotmarried at, to moving out into
a piece of property or a pieceof land that you put up, a
makeshift barn that became youknow something that didn't have
windows, that you had to make doright.
I remember as you were goingthrough that moving process you
were selling a bunch of yourclothes you're getting rid of
(28:55):
like the vast majority of yourmaterial belongings.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I did.
I think I got rid of like 75%because a lot of my clothes were
, you know, business,professional clothes and I
didn't see a need for them wherewe were calling.
So you know, and a lot ofdecorative things, because my
mindset was who knows if they'regoing to work in the next place
I live, so I'm not going todrag these things all over the
(29:19):
place with me.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
So yeah, I think that's a really special to you.
Like you carefully choose yourthings, you're an aesthetically
like, very aware person, so Iknow that there was attachment
to those things as well.
And that's the thing aboutcontamination and redemption
stories is like there are realattachments that come with those
choices of making meaning.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, and so.
So that's great, because that'sthat that makes me think of
this.
So this is a little bit of areframe, but it's also a story
that we tell ourselves to islike so if you were to put me
and Brian in this story and askus to tell it, his story would
be well, we can always get morethings.
We will always make more money.
(30:04):
Well, we can always just getnew things.
Where my story comes from, alot of things that have happened
in the past and that feeling oflack, like well, what if we
don't have enough to get newthings?
What if this is the last time Ihave this beautiful, you know,
whatever vase or whatever it was?
So even putting people in thesame story but asking them to
(30:28):
tell it is can be very, you know, redemptive versus
contamination as well.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Right, I absolutely love that.
You just said that, becausewhen you, when you counsel
someone and you ask them to telltheir story, usually their
story is actually not even thecurrent story, it's the
childhood story.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Oh, I just heard that from somebody else recently too
.
Like your marriage, yourmarriage can be a lot about.
Like just things from yourchildhood just placed into the.
You know the current storyright.
Yeah, so go back to your storyso my story was grew up yeah,
grew up with lack and notknowing if you're going to have
(31:11):
things and kind of hoardingthings because you didn't know
if you were ever going to getthem again.
Like I wasn't the kid who gottheir Halloween candy or their
Easter basket and ate it allreally fast.
I was like no, I got to staythis because I don't know when
I'm going to get this again.
So you know, as as much as Ifeel like I've grown and I have
some of that still sticks withme, you know, and so you know
(31:34):
what you said is I'm I'm verychoosy about what I select from
my home.
Part of it is the aesthetic andpart of it is am I willing to
spend the money on that, youknow.
So, yeah, there's always alittle bit more of the story.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Yeah, and in those feelings that come up in the
situations in our adult life,the feeling of like, when that
boss came in and she like wasyou know, you're here 10 hours
and that's it, and I don't careif you've eaten today or what
you had planned for the weekendor any other plans, like it's,
it's my priority and you'regoing to follow mine.
(32:10):
Did that feel like anythingfrom your childhood?
I know you probably didn'tthink about it, but did it feel
like any other relationship fromyour childhood that you can
connect it to?
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I mean, you're right, I probably didn't put two and
two together at the time.
But yes, I've always just kindof like, didn't speak up for
myself and didn't ask for thatboundary, you know, and so I
didn't feel like it was evenpossible to ask for what I
needed, and that's that's arepetitive theme, you know from
my childhood Not to just tosilence yourself and and stay
(32:40):
out of trouble.
So just don't ask for what youneed or what you want.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Right, Right, so it's so much that we could dig so
deep into it.
I really loved all the researchthat they cited.
If the listeners are interestedin listening to this podcast or
checking out the transcript,what I really love is that they
also look at how people who havereally bad problems with
alcohol, how they tell the storyof taking their last drink.
(33:07):
Yeah, Some of the research thatthey cited.
They actually looked at peoplethat were alcoholics and how
they told the story of theirlast drink as either
contamination or redemption.
They also looked at chronicallystressed adults who had
children with special needs andhow they told the story of, you
(33:28):
know, basically losing theirlife to take care of their
special needs child or is itsomething that empowered them?
One person that they cited itwas really interesting.
One person that they cited itsaid for one person her special
needs child taught her a lotabout who she was as a person,
how she was open, how she wasnot open to people and things
(33:50):
and how she felt like havingthis challenging parenting
experience really helped reshapewho she was as a person, what
it meant for her to not only bea parent but also a human in
relation to other human beingsthat she loved dearly, and what
happened was through that herempathy for other people, and
what used to be an awareness ofand a focus on self, really
(34:11):
started becoming focus on othersas just a way of being in the
world, and she was very proud ofthat.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
So I guess what's the message for the listeners today
?
What would we say as a resultof this?
Be aware of the stories thatyou're telling yourself and
where you put the intuitionwhere you're putting the
punctuation and be aware thatwhere you punctuate your story
impacts your mental health andwell-being.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Absolutely yeah.
We started talking about doingsomething together years ago and
we said there is power in yourstory, and that was in like 2018
.
And you know we're at that endof 2023.
And it's just as relevant todayas it was in 2018.
And we first started talkingabout it.
You know our story could havebeen, our story could have ended
(35:03):
.
You know the full book couldhave ended.
You know we're.
We grew up in a trailer park,we grew up in abusive homes, we
grew up with some level ofneglect, but the power of our
story is that that wasn't theend of our story.
Our story continues andcontinues and I love to say this
, like you're the author yeah,you get to write the next line,
(35:27):
you get to write the nextchapter and you get to write the
ending of your book.
Don't let somebody else holdthe pen.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Absolutely.
I love that quote.
Don't let somebody else holdthe pen of your story.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Well, I'm going to encourage listeners, even though
I said I don't like the podcast, I'm going to encourage them to
go listen to episode.
I'll make sure to include it intoday's show notes.
I think this is a reallyimportant topic.
Probably to reflect on a littlebit is you know where have you
ended the chapters in your story?
And if you just moved thechapter ending just a little bit
(36:03):
differently in a different spot, you know, can you reframe that
story and turn it into aredemption story versus a
contamination story?
That's my challenge for thelisteners today.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Absolutely, and please go to our Facebook page
and other ways of connecting onInstagram, and if you have a
story of redemption that you'dlike to share with us, we'd love
to hear it.
Have a great day.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Have a great day.
Amanda, I don't know if thisever happens to you, but I
sometimes will learn somethingreally cool on a podcast, on a
YouTube video audiobook,whatever, I think I'm going to
remember it and then I forget.
Does that ever happen to you?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, I call it brain after 40 all the time.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Well, that's what we'll officially call it.
When we come up with something,do you want to introduce it?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Sure, it's from an app called Quick Jim Quick, and
it's an acronym called fast.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, and the F stands for Facebook.
So we're inviting youofficially right now to come
over and join us on Facebook.
Get involved with the community, share your favorite episodes
with your friends on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yeah, the A is go ahead and take an action, so you
can't remember anything if youdon't act.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And F is for subscribe.
Make sure you're subscribed toour YouTube channel.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And then T is teach.
Teach what you've learned tosomebody else.
Share the love.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
All right, we hope that works for you.
Thank you for joining us.
We'll see you next week, so bye.
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