December 6, 2023 • 34 mins
Ever wondered if the way we perceive ourselves dictates our behaviors and emotions? Or if the people we choose to surround ourselves with are more of a reflection on us than on them? Tune in as we dissect these intriguing concepts through the enlightening metaphor of 'The Three Chairs', introduced by Dr. Karyn Gordon on the Resetters podcast. The chairs stand symbolically, each encapsulating a different attitude and representing the spectrum of self-perception - from self-doubt to arrogance to the golden middle ground of confidence laced with humility.
We further plunge into the depths of self-perception, analyzing its impact on our behavior and emotions, all through the lens of the acclaimed TV show 'Six Feet Under'. We'll also touch upon the natural evolution of friendships and the paramount importance of being around positive influences. We share our personal experiences and reflections on the subject, aiming to provide valuable insights for our listeners. For those keen on exploring these themes further, we recommend Dr. Karen Gordon's book "The Three Chairs" and Dr. Mindy Pelz' Resetter podcast. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom, underlining the significance of self-awareness, intentional actions, and personal growth. So, ready to take the plunge into a journey of self-discovery and transformation? Buckle up!
The Resetter Podcast episode
The Three Chairs Book Link
Ted Talk with Dr Karyn Gord on the Three Chairs Concept
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
You're listening to the what Women Want Today
podcast.
If you love the idea of beingpart of a community of women who
are looking to thrive, not justsurvive, you're in the right
place.
Join hosts Terry Cullums andAmanda Keeper each week, as they
bring you topics and guests tohelp you improve your
relationships, your health andyour emotional and spiritual
(00:23):
well-being.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the what
Women Want Today podcast.
My name is Terry Cullums.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hey, there, I'm Amanda Keeper, your co-host,
welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Amanda, I'm so excited about our topic today,
but you know, something elsehappened to me this weekend that
I just have to mention beforewe get started.
Today my husband surprised meand took me to Trans-Siberian
Orchestra and it was so amazing,awesome, oh, it was like, you
know, one of those things thatyou, you like listen to
(01:04):
something every Christmas and itjust uplifts you and you feel
so good every time you listen toit and then you get to like sit
there in the audience andyou're watching them live.
And I got to tell you there wasone song where I was actually
like crying, I was so moved.
I don't know if you're a fan ornot, but, like, even Brian was
like, yeah, this was really good.
(01:25):
The light show was amazing.
It was really just such anincredible experience and
something that's been on mybucket list for a long time, so
I was really excited.
He surprised me.
He started out by saying don'tplan anything on Sunday, like
and that was, I think, his wayof saying don't plan a podcast
episode with Amanda.
(01:45):
So I was like, okay, and I waslike well, what do you want to
do?
And he goes I'll think ofsomething.
That's how he started it andhe's like I'll think of
something.
And then, as it got closer,he's like so what are we going
to wear?
And I go oh, I have no ideabecause I don't know where we're
going.
And he's like well, you might,you might want to wear a dress.
And I'm like a dress, likewhere would you be taking me
(02:06):
where I need to wear a dress.
So, anyways, I ended up havinglike 45 minutes.
The last moment he says oh, weneed to leave by 11 o'clock.
You might want to put somethings in an overnight bag, just
in case we decide to stayovernight.
I'm like what the heck?
So I'd love.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
You had a drive, though.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Oh yeah, we had to go all the way to Phoenix and we
came back the same night, so Idon't know if people can see
Charlie he's clinging on my laptoday.
But yeah, it was a long drivingbut it's so, just so worth it.
And I'm sitting there and I'mthinking about, like because it
(02:44):
was about Christmas past, theghost of Christmas past, and so
there was some narration anddifferent things.
It was a very, very neat show.
The light show was amazing, butas I'm sitting there in the
audience and one of the parts ofit like all these memories of
Christmas just like flashedthrough my head, and some of
(03:05):
them were like very justcherished memories and other
ones were a little sad, to behonest with you.
But I'm glad we're talking aboutthe three chairs today.
It's a tool that I think we'regoing to be able to give to our
audience that they can use inboth their personal, their, you
know, with their spouse, withtheir friends at work.
(03:27):
And I think what made me sointerested in bringing this
topic to our audience today washow, in the podcast that I sent
you and I'll put that link inthe show notes they talked about
how we change over time and wecan sit in different chairs and
even even currently, as she wastalking and I was learning about
(03:50):
this, I could see how times Isit in a different chair.
So I want to hear your thoughtsabout the three chairs.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, well, first let's introduce the concept so
the audience does what we'retalking about.
So Terry sent me a podcast fromthe Resetters podcast, from one
of our first videos.
Her favorite host, mindy Pells,I think, is how you pronounce
it.
Yeah, she had a guest named DrKaren Gordon, and Dr Karen
Gordon has a tech talk about whygreat leaders have amazing
(04:21):
confidence and that confidenceis the special sauce, or the
secret sauce to living thefulfilling life and having
really fulfilling relationships.
And so the chair's concept wasborn because she was trying to
help a client, a teenage client,with some self-esteem issues,
and so she started devouring theresearch and she really
discovered that people usuallysit in one of three camps, so
(04:45):
she gave it chairs.
The left chair is what she callsthe blind attitude, and this is
the chair where a lot of peoplesit when they feel like they
have imposter syndrome, likethey are very, very critical of
self, they are their own worstcritic, they're blind to their
own value and their own worth,they put themselves down a lot
(05:07):
and they're just really, reallyself-deprecating.
The right chair is what shecalls the disguised attitude,
and this is for people thatposture a lot and mask a lot,
people that come off as highlyarrogant and cocky People that
are not afraid to put otherpeople down and make other
people feel small.
(05:28):
But really what the arroganceis is a cover for the insecurity
.
What she really wants people totry to get to or to strive for
is the middle chair, which shebelieves is where confident
people sit, who don't putthemselves or others down.
They lift others up, they arehumble, they surround themselves
(05:48):
with others so that they canlearn from other people and they
assess where they put theirenergy and who they spend their
time with so that they cancontinue to grow and have
positive energy.
I thought it was fascinating.
In her TED Talk, she says that70% of people connect to either
the left or the right chair.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Wow, yeah, that doesn't leave a lot of room for
the middle, because one of thethings that she talks about is
how important it is inrelationships to first get
yourself to the middle chair andthen pick a spouse or a
friendship based on where theperson's sitting.
So are you able to explain howshe talked about in the I think
(06:35):
she talked about it in her TEDTalk too, but I know she talked
about it in the podcast wherewhy does somebody that sits in
the left chair pick the personthat sits in the right chair?
Can you talk about that alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, they're complementary relationships,
right?
A lot of times we seek out thecharacteristics and other people
that we don't have in ourselves, hoping that that might bring
us up to a level of confidence,and sometimes it works.
Sometimes it can be very tricky.
So if you have a femaleespecially, you know I have some
(07:07):
clients that are in high schooland they have their first
relationship and they're very,very insecure.
They're sitting in the leftchair.
They're attracted to men ifthey're same sex.
They're attracted to a partnerthat is really overconfident, if
you will, because they desirethose traits, and so they
partner with them.
And then sometimes, a lot oftimes, what happens is the
(07:29):
person that is arrogant or cockyor power driven.
They see and seek out theweakness of the person in the
left chair, who is very insecure, and what was once attraction
now becomes a very unhealthydynamic where there's power over
and the person in the leftchair, who's already insecure,
(07:49):
becomes even more insecure asthey give away their identity to
somebody who seemingly seemsmore powerful than them.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So I just want to wrap my brain around it.
So if I'm not confident, if I'ma person who's not confident
and I seek out a very over thetop, arrogant, overpowering kind
of male dominant person, if I'min a heterosexual relationship,
I Well, you can just saymasculine traits you can say
masculine traits Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Because females can have masculine traits as well.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That's true.
So I'm picking that personbecause they're mirroring what I
say to myself.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
They're.
They're mirroring what youdon't have.
They're mirroring what youdon't have, and so you're
attracted to their confidencebecause you don't have it but,
it's an overconfidence.
It's an overconfidence that alot of people who are arrogant
and they are driven by power,they seek weaker personality so
that they can have power overthem and continue to have power
(08:48):
over them.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Hmm, boy, this is.
You know, this is like bringingup so much and I, I like that
we, you know, like when I wassitting there in the in the
concert and I was flashing backover the memories of Christmas,
like I was seeing a differentversion of myself.
You know, in some of the, insome of the memories, and I like
(09:11):
that, we can gain confidence,we have the power within
ourselves to move to a differentchair.
I love that, but I also, whenshe was talking, I also
recognize that I probably spenta lot of my life in the left
chair.
I don't think I've ever been inthe right chair, but I have
(09:32):
moved in and out of the middlechair a lot, depending on, and
it's fascinating and I thinkthat's what.
When I was listening to thepodcast, I was like how does
this, how does this help ouraudience of midlife women?
How can this tool be helpful?
You know, as we're moving andsome of those memories and some
of the things that have beenhappening over the last couple
(09:53):
weeks, for me is and I don'tactually don't experience this
very often, but that empty nestsyndrome, because I have been
decorating for Christmas andit's such a magical and special
time for me.
I want to help create thosememories.
Excuse me, with my, you know,my new family with with Brian
(10:15):
and I's blended family.
I would love to create some moreof those memories and you know,
it's just not possible all thetime, demographically it's not
always possible, but I findmyself being nostalgic for the
days when my children were homeand I had the opportunity to
create more memories with themabout that.
(10:35):
And so, as I'm thinking aboutthis topic, I'm thinking okay,
so we've got some women that aremoving probably into the empty
nest phase You'll be there in acouple years, most likely and
you know how do we, how do weuse this tool to navigate some
of the more difficulttransitions into midlife.
(10:57):
What would you think?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Well, I think the tool is really about
self-awareness andself-assessment.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So in the chat talk she talks about.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
You know, when you listen to the characteristics
being described, which chair doyou think that you're in?
So, one of the ways that and Ilove that she said this is a
human problem age is irrelevant,because, yes, we're talking to
women in midlife, but this is a.
This is a human problem.
Okay, so we are.
We are looking at the to answeryour question, though how does
(11:29):
this impact midlife?
What are you saying to yourselfabout the transition?
Right, so that the questionbecomes how is being an empty
nester influencing yourself-talk?
How has being an influence oran empty nester contributing to
what you're saying to yourselfabout your own worth?
(11:50):
Do you have an identity outsideof the children if the children
are leaving home?
You know, one of the thingsthat Gary always talks to me
about is you know what?
At the end of the day, amanda,all of our kids are going to be
gone.
And it's you and I.
You're the ones left and wehave to have confidence in our
relationship and the stabilityof our friendship, because the
friendship is what's going tosustain us over the years.
(12:12):
It's interesting.
I was watching I'm a hugeNetflix binge watcher and I'm
watching this new one that justcame out called Six Feet Under,
and it's about this family thatowns a funeral home.
Okay, so it's hilarious.
It's if you haven't seen it andyou're looking for a new show,
six Feet Under.
But they go through all sorts ofthese transitions, right, and
(12:38):
they are, you know, trying tofigure out what their identity
is.
And they are grappling with itbecause the main character, the
father, dies in like the firstscene of the movie and or of the
series.
And now they're like looking attheir blind spots.
The whole show is aboutuncovering blind spots of what
happens when our needs aren'tmet and our confidence takes a
(13:01):
hit.
And then what kinds ofbehaviors?
What kinds of behaviors do wethen portray?
So how we think about ourselvesdrives how we feel about
ourselves, which drives ourbehavior, right?
So if one of the characters inthe show is noticing that he's
constantly pining for hisfather's affection and attention
(13:22):
and to be a priority, but henever gets it.
Then he has a less, he has alower self-esteem, which makes
him feel not worthy, becausehe's pining after somebody's
attention that he can never get.
So then what does he do for hisbehavior?
He puts up a wall and he'ssuper, super emotionally
unavailable to people, becauseif he's unemotionally available
(13:43):
to people, then people can'thurt him even more.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So, you know, as we go through life, you know the
scenario may change.
The the what we're goingthrough may change, but what
doesn't change is how we thinkabout ourselves, which leads to
how we feel about ourselves toleads to how we behave.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Right, and as I'm walking through Hobby Lobby the
other day, and I think it wasjust because there were like so
many moms and their kids inthere that day, and you know I
saw a range of differentbehaviors out of the moms and
the kids.
You know some of the moms youcould just tell, or you know the
very nurturing and, and theother moms were just so
impatient and I I just I justkind of was like take, took
(14:26):
myself back to those days and Igot, I got hit with this like
wave of sadness, like oh my gosh, I feel lost.
I feel lost today.
And then I stopped and gotcurious about like where were
these feelings coming from?
I started asking myself somequestions and you know, one of
the questions I asked myself isdo I only do what I do for other
(14:49):
people or do I do it because itbrings me joy as well?
And the answer wasoverwhelmingly yes, it brings me
a lot of joy.
And then the second thing I hadto say to myself because we are
, you know, talking to ourselvesconstantly right is I choose
joy, I am choosing joy.
I'm not going to be sad overthis holiday season.
(15:13):
I'm not going to be sad that mymom is no longer here to share
it with us.
I'm very intentionally choosingjoy today and I snapped out of
it pretty quickly.
But you know I did tell Brian.
I said you're going to have tobe patient with me at times
during this holiday seasonbecause I am choosing joy today,
(15:35):
but at any moment, you know, Icould slip back into.
I miss.
You know, I miss the.
You know I think I've told youthe story about years ago when I
had a very solid group offriends at one of the jobs I
worked at and one of the nursesmade a very, you know, very
(15:55):
wonderful experience for all ofus at Christmas time.
And we've, you know, we've haddifferent things where we've
done, like white elephant thingsand potlucks, and you know,
working from home by yourself,like you don't get those
opportunities during this timeof year to interact with other
people and I actually was in aFacebook group of, you know,
(16:17):
midlife women, men and men andwomen, perry men and men and
women, and you know they weresaying, oh well, I don't have
anybody, I don't celebrate, Idon't celebrate the holidays, I,
it's easier just to be aloneand I'm like that's not.
I just don't think that's theright mindset heading into the
holidays.
I think you know if you'retempted to to choose the sad, to
(16:40):
choose the nostalgia, to choosethe more painful, like I think
it's going to be a much harderexperience for you and you're
I'm assuming you're sitting wayover in the left chair with no
hopes of getting to the middlechair at that point.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Sure, I mean, a lot comes up for me there.
You know, sometimes it's okayto sit there.
Sometimes it's okay to sitthere in that nostalgia and let
yourself feel that nostalgia andthat pain and you know to say
it's not okay.
I wouldn't go that far.
I think that people are ontheir own journey and you know
(17:18):
for me to tell another personit's not okay to sit in that
chair for a while maybe they,you know they need to sit in
that chair.
A lot of clarity comes from that.
You know you can't have lightwithout dark, and one of the
things that I'm learning in mylife is that you know, instead
of running from the dark, whatcan I learn from the dark?
(17:38):
Why?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
is the dark here right now.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You know what is the dark teaching me right now.
So you know, I guess I'd haveto disagree a little bit on that
part.
But you don't want to stay inthe dark right.
Kind of like what you said whenyou said that to Brian.
Like you know, what I mighttoday I'm choosing joy, but it
might not be like this every day, right, but to know that, you
(18:04):
know, sometimes it does lastmultiple days.
If it lasts more than a coupleof weeks, you know, definitely
get some help.
But I think that your point iswell made For me.
As you were talking, you knowyou're feeling that nostalgia
over the kids being little andlike having people come over and
decorate and having this richcommunity of friends.
You know, on Thursday is mymom's two year death anniversary
(18:28):
and so so Christmas time for methe last two years I've learned
, is a little bit different.
And you want to talk abouttransitions right, like a
transition when you get olderand we lose people and the
holidays and the meaning ofholidays starts to change a
little bit, kind of like yousaid, with losing your mom.
(18:50):
So it's been a really tough weekfor me and I suspect that
Thursday's probably going to betough as well, because there's a
lot of there's a feeling ofinjustice because she passed
away at 62 years old and I feellike she deserved more life and
she loved Christmas, and sothat's where you know that
(19:12):
emotional intelligence comes inand actually Karen Gordon talked
about that that part of beingconfident and finding that
middle chair more often isemotional intelligence.
And so I'm starting to thinklike, okay, the darkness is
there and I can allow thedarkness to be there, but it's
not an either or it's a both,and there's going to be darkness
(19:35):
and there's going to be light.
On Thursday, on my mom's twoyear death anniversary, there's
going to be darkness because ofthe longing and the loss and the
injustice of how I feel she wastaken too soon, but there's
going to be this great lightthinking about how she
absolutely loved Christmas andyou know, one of the last
Christmases that we ever spenttogether.
(19:56):
We had all of our cousins downon the mountain and she lived in
a holler and the hills of NorthCarolina and she had her friend
come up and she gave usmassages.
And it's super rustic.
Don't think of anything fancyor like a spa, think of like a
really dirty barn and you cansmell like dog shit in the room
(20:22):
and there's like stale beer.
But there's this really comfybed and this person that knows
what they're doing and they'regiving you the best massage in
the world and you feel likeyou're in the twilight zone and
it's like it's not either orit's both, and this is crazy.
There's dark but there's lightand they can both exist at the
(20:42):
same time, and I think part ofbeing in that middle chair is
like allowing that to exist.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I love that analogy.
That was such an awesome story.
So let's talk about, like, onceyou're in the middle chair and
you let's.
You know I loved I think shekind of went down this path a
little bit with podcast is youknow?
So what if you meet your spousewhen you're really young and
I'm sure you you're going to beable to relate to this in your,
in your practice what if youcome across your spouse when
(21:12):
you're really young and you getmarried and now you know you've
moved into that middle chair andyou've spent the last several
years like, really working onyourself, working on your growth
, but your spouse hasn't changedalong with you, like, I'm sure
you experienced that.
This is so hard.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I have lots of clients and that experienced
this and usually it is just afact that when couples go to
counseling, usually it is thefemale that initiates counseling
.
If it's the same sexrelationship, the female, nine
times out of 10, will initiateand bring her husband.
Usually he does not want to comeand he, you know, begrudgingly
(21:55):
goes in and sits down andlistens and I feel like that's
like my one shot, you know, it'slike that Eminem song, like you
got one shot.
I really show my value, that Ican help, because you know
they're very resistant a lot ofthe times.
But, to answer your question, alot of women who marry young
(22:17):
they get to a point where theyhave really noticed the impact
of the hit on their self esteem,of sort of trading in their
freedom, identity for mom,identity.
And then they look around andthey realize like a lot of the
experiences that they saw othershaving was those were things
that they didn't get to have.
(22:38):
And then they start reallydoing a lot of self development,
a lot of reading and they'rethey're just growing in so many
ways and their husband doesn'teven recognize them anymore.
And their partner doesn'trecognize them anymore.
And now there's this powerdifference and it feels very
threatening to the person thatis not doing the work because
they're like what happened tothe person I married.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And all I can say is something that when I got
married, the pastor who marriedme said I can't tell you how
many times people come in andsay you know, we've just grown,
we've just changed, and itdoesn't feel like we're the same
people that we were when we gotmarried.
And he said during the sermon hesaid duh you probably shouldn't
(23:21):
, be Probably shouldn't be likewe're here to grow and to evolve
, like if you just look at thefresh baby that comes out of the
oven and like look at thenewness and the freshness and
then look at the over thelifespan.
Like even our skin changes, wehave wrinkles.
We were growing, we're evolving.
And with that comes change.
(23:43):
And so I say to the people thatare resistant to change you
know, it is a factor of wellnessand I know that most people
like to see themselves as peoplewho have the ability to grow
and change and adapt and develop, no matter what kind of
cultural background they comefrom.
And we can agree on that.
(24:03):
And so if we can agree on that,would you be open to hearing
about this?
And then usually people are so.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, and Dr Karen said, one of the things that you
can always do is work onyourself.
You can't always that's theonly thing you really have
control of is you know your ownself and hopefully the person
that you're changing intobecomes someone that's even more
attractive to your partner, andthey're like hey, I see this, I
(24:32):
want to get on board with this.
You know it's interesting.
You were talking about the showsix feet under Brian and I also
watched a TV show that has agreat impact on our marriage and
I've brought this up to youseveral times before, I know,
but it's a show called Marriedat First Sight and it's where
these couples come together.
They get matched by these youknow, quote unquote experts, and
last night's episode was prettyinteresting and one of the
(24:55):
things that you know, becausewe'll pause it during the show,
like you know, what do you thinkabout that?
And one of the things and myhusband has grown so much, just
tremendously in the time we'vebeen together, and so you know
when we are talking about thespouse that is changing.
I think it's important to notethat you do have influence over
(25:16):
your spouse, and I remembersaying that to a coaching client
and she was like, oh, I don'tthink so.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, we do,we have, we have influence over
our spouse.
But I would say that's one areaI've influenced Brian and is a
lot of curiosity about growth.
And so last night'sconversation kind of surprised
me a little bit because his takeon this particular topic that
(25:38):
we were kind of paused anddiscussing was well, if you were
, if you were meant for eachother, you wouldn't have so much
conflict.
And I said I said I thinkconflict is normal and healthy
Not that I love it, because weall know I don't but but he said
no, if you, if you are, if youare with the right person, if
(25:58):
you are matched appropriately,there shouldn't be a lot of
conflict.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (26:05):
I mean, I think there's a balance and I think it
depends on personality.
I mean, I'm married to somebodywho loves to debate when my
husband is in the room with hisdaughter.
His daughter and him are sosimilar.
And they will argue about thecolor blue, they will debate
about the color blue.
(26:25):
They'll really enjoy it.
And I'm looking at her husbandand he's looking at me and I'm
like, oh my gosh, I can't evenbelieve we just wasted 10
minutes of our lives listeningto that conversation.
I mean, truly, I'm baffled.
And you see my eyes, I ambaffled.
(26:46):
Some personalities like to kindof jar.
They like to spar.
They like to spar.
I don't, I'm not that type ofperson, and Gary knows it about
me.
So Gary expresses more of thatside of himself with other
people, because he has learnedto listen to me Like, look, I'm
less attracted to you when youdo that and I know you want me
(27:07):
to be attracted to you, right,babe?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, To me in question, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I'm not trying to heck him, shut off who he is.
I'm saying that part ofcognitive complexity and
emotional intelligence is likeOK, in this situation this is
appropriate.
In that situation, that'sappropriate.
That just means that you knowhow to move in and out and meet
people's needs and deepen theirrelationship.
When he is that way with me, Idon't feel close to him.
(27:35):
When he and Pax and Jar andthey spar like that, they feel
close to each other becausethat's like their dynamic.
So I don't usually say like, oh, there's one size fits all
answer to those types ofrelational questions.
I will say this One of thethings that they talked about on
the podcast that was theinspiration for this podcast is
(27:57):
that the woman said I think itwas Dr Karen Gordon.
She said my husband noticeswhen I spend time with people
that are healthy for me, becausewhen I'm with my girlfriends
and I come home and he's likebabe, you are just energized.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And you feel like full, you seem full of life.
And then he said he will noticethat when I come home and
somebody has really just likeknocked me down and he'll say I
think you might have a frenemy.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Are you sure?
Speaker 3 (28:25):
that that person you're allowing to have access
to your energy is not a frenemy.
So we need to.
As we get older and I think wedo a much better job of this in
our 40s and 50s is we decidethat maybe we've outgrown some
friendships.
And maybe we.
That doesn't mean it's a badthing.
I have outgrown manyfriendships.
(28:46):
Many friends have outgrown meand I look at those friendships
with great nostalgia.
I would not take back any ofthose moments with any of the
friends that are no longer apart of my life because we've
grown in different ways.
But I also probably wouldn'tchoose the same friends anymore,
like I'm different.
(29:07):
And she even talks about thebrain and the brain science and
how, after 40, like, what wefind attractive in a friend is
even different.
So it's like yeah, it's like youknow, one of my favorite
authors, Dr Sue Johnson fromHold Me Tied up, talks about
attachment and she's like youknow, instead of pathologizing
(29:29):
the changes that we experience,she says of course you are, Of
course you do, it's your way ofexperiencing the world and
interacting with the world andthat's your roadmap and that's
OK, Like that doesn't mean thatthat person's bad or you're bad.
It just means that that energydoesn't fit anymore, and that's.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
OK, I know exactly what you're saying when I think
back about friendships that feltso right and perfect at the
time.
You've outgrown them, you're adifferent person, but it doesn't
mean that you regret beingfriends with them.
And you and I talk aboutdeepening friendships a lot.
But I think we also need to bemindful of when a friendship is
(30:12):
no longer serving us because wehave grown so much and they talk
about this on the podcast alittle bit Like if you are in a
period of growth in your life,if you are doing something and
you're, let's say, let's use youfor an example You're on fire
with your career, like you'redoing leadership training and
you're a college professor andyou're doing mental health
(30:35):
counseling, if some of yourfriends aren't cheering you on
and being excited, if they'vegone silent or if they've gone
critical.
That's a friendship to evaluate, to see if it's still serving
you, versus a woman who sits inthe middle chair is going to be
your champion.
She's going to be cheering youon, she's happy for you, she's
excited, she's bragging aboutyou to your husband when you get
(30:58):
done, having a conversationabout how amazing you are.
Those are the type offriendships I think you and I
are encouraging on thesepodcasts.
Those are the types ofrelationships we want you to
seek out.
So I love this topic.
I wish we had a lot more time todig into it, but I am going to
recommend the book the ThreeChairs.
I know it has a byline, I can'tremember it.
(31:18):
I'm Dr Karen Gordon.
I'm going to put the link inthe show notes.
Also going to link Dr MindyPels's Resetter podcast.
I definitely recommend thisepisode, but she has many more
great episodes for you to listento as well.
And is there anything you'dlike to leave the audience with
today?
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Oh, just that.
I want to echo what you said,and that is, when you leave a
person's presence, if you feelbetter and more energized,
you're with the right person.
If you leave a person and youseem drained and you're second
guessing everything and goingback to your question about what
do you think about what Briansaid?
If there's so much conflict, Ireally just want to go
(32:01):
downstream and go with the flow,and when you're in the presence
of somebody who really growsyou, everything feels so easy.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And maybe that's what he meant.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
It's like man.
It is so nice to be with yourpeople.
It is so nice to just know I canjust be and it's easy and it
flows, and I want to do more ofthat and less of the other.
So have a great day everyone.
We just can't say enough howgrateful we are about your
(32:31):
feedback that you give us.
So if there's anything that youthought of today while we were
talking, go over to the Facebookgroup and tell us, maybe what
chair you're in and what seasonyou're in.
Are you in the left chair, themiddle chair, the right chair?
Maybe you're in the right chairwith certain people and in the
middle chair with other people.
Maybe at home you're in themiddle chair, but at work you're
(32:52):
in the left chair.
So there's lots of things tothink about and we encourage you
to check out those podcasts.
Have a wonderful day.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Bye everybody.
Amanda, I don't know if thisever happens to you, but I
sometimes will learn somethingreally cool on a podcast, on a
YouTube video, audiobook,whatever.
I think I'm going to rememberit and then I forget.
Does that ever happen to you?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah, I call it brain after 40 all the time.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
That's what we'll officially call it, but we've
come up with something.
Do you want to introduce it?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Sure, it's from an app called Quick Jim Quick and
it's an acronym called FAST.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, and the F stands for Facebook.
So we're inviting youofficially right now to come
over and join us on Facebook.
Get involved with the community, share your favorite episodes
with your friends on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah, the A is go ahead and take an action, so you
can't remember anything if youdon't act.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
And S is for subscribe.
Make sure you're subscribed toour YouTube channel.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
And then T is teach.
Teach what you've learned tosomebody else.
Share the love.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
All right, we hope that works for you.
Thank you for joining us.
We'll see you next week.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Bye-bye.
You're listening to the what Women Want Today
podcast.
If you love the idea of beingpart of a community of women who
are looking to thrive, not justsurvive, you're in the right
place.
Join hosts Terry Cullums andAmanda Keeper each week, as they
bring you topics and guests tohelp you improve your
relationships, your health andyour emotional and spiritual
(00:23):
well-being.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the what
Women Want Today podcast.
My name is Terry Cullums.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Hey, there, I'm Amanda Keeper, your co-host,
welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Amanda, I'm so excited about our topic today,
but you know, something elsehappened to me this weekend that
I just have to mention beforewe get started.
Today my husband surprised meand took me to Trans-Siberian
Orchestra and it was so amazing,awesome, oh, it was like, you
know, one of those things thatyou, you like listen to
(01:04):
something every Christmas and itjust uplifts you and you feel
so good every time you listen toit and then you get to like sit
there in the audience andyou're watching them live.
And I got to tell you there wasone song where I was actually
like crying, I was so moved.
I don't know if you're a fan ornot, but, like, even Brian was
like, yeah, this was really good.
(01:25):
The light show was amazing.
It was really just such anincredible experience and
something that's been on mybucket list for a long time, so
I was really excited.
He surprised me.
He started out by saying don'tplan anything on Sunday, like
and that was, I think, his wayof saying don't plan a podcast
episode with Amanda.
(01:45):
So I was like, okay, and I waslike well, what do you want to
do?
And he goes I'll think ofsomething.
That's how he started it andhe's like I'll think of
something.
And then, as it got closer,he's like so what are we going
to wear?
And I go oh, I have no ideabecause I don't know where we're
going.
And he's like well, you might,you might want to wear a dress.
And I'm like a dress, likewhere would you be taking me
(02:06):
where I need to wear a dress.
So, anyways, I ended up havinglike 45 minutes.
The last moment he says oh, weneed to leave by 11 o'clock.
You might want to put somethings in an overnight bag, just
in case we decide to stayovernight.
I'm like what the heck?
So I'd love.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
You had a drive, though.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Oh yeah, we had to go all the way to Phoenix and we
came back the same night, so Idon't know if people can see
Charlie he's clinging on my laptoday.
But yeah, it was a long drivingbut it's so, just so worth it.
And I'm sitting there and I'mthinking about, like because it
(02:44):
was about Christmas past, theghost of Christmas past, and so
there was some narration anddifferent things.
It was a very, very neat show.
The light show was amazing, butas I'm sitting there in the
audience and one of the parts ofit like all these memories of
Christmas just like flashedthrough my head, and some of
(03:05):
them were like very justcherished memories and other
ones were a little sad, to behonest with you.
But I'm glad we're talking aboutthe three chairs today.
It's a tool that I think we'regoing to be able to give to our
audience that they can use inboth their personal, their, you
know, with their spouse, withtheir friends at work.
(03:27):
And I think what made me sointerested in bringing this
topic to our audience today washow, in the podcast that I sent
you and I'll put that link inthe show notes they talked about
how we change over time and wecan sit in different chairs and
even even currently, as she wastalking and I was learning about
(03:50):
this, I could see how times Isit in a different chair.
So I want to hear your thoughtsabout the three chairs.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, well, first let's introduce the concept so
the audience does what we'retalking about.
So Terry sent me a podcast fromthe Resetters podcast, from one
of our first videos.
Her favorite host, mindy Pells,I think, is how you pronounce
it.
Yeah, she had a guest named DrKaren Gordon, and Dr Karen
Gordon has a tech talk about whygreat leaders have amazing
(04:21):
confidence and that confidenceis the special sauce, or the
secret sauce to living thefulfilling life and having
really fulfilling relationships.
And so the chair's concept wasborn because she was trying to
help a client, a teenage client,with some self-esteem issues,
and so she started devouring theresearch and she really
discovered that people usuallysit in one of three camps, so
(04:45):
she gave it chairs.
The left chair is what she callsthe blind attitude, and this is
the chair where a lot of peoplesit when they feel like they
have imposter syndrome, likethey are very, very critical of
self, they are their own worstcritic, they're blind to their
own value and their own worth,they put themselves down a lot
(05:07):
and they're just really, reallyself-deprecating.
The right chair is what shecalls the disguised attitude,
and this is for people thatposture a lot and mask a lot,
people that come off as highlyarrogant and cocky People that
are not afraid to put otherpeople down and make other
people feel small.
(05:28):
But really what the arroganceis is a cover for the insecurity
.
What she really wants people totry to get to or to strive for
is the middle chair, which shebelieves is where confident
people sit, who don't putthemselves or others down.
They lift others up, they arehumble, they surround themselves
(05:48):
with others so that they canlearn from other people and they
assess where they put theirenergy and who they spend their
time with so that they cancontinue to grow and have
positive energy.
I thought it was fascinating.
In her TED Talk, she says that70% of people connect to either
the left or the right chair.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Wow, yeah, that doesn't leave a lot of room for
the middle, because one of thethings that she talks about is
how important it is inrelationships to first get
yourself to the middle chair andthen pick a spouse or a
friendship based on where theperson's sitting.
So are you able to explain howshe talked about in the I think
(06:35):
she talked about it in her TEDTalk too, but I know she talked
about it in the podcast wherewhy does somebody that sits in
the left chair pick the personthat sits in the right chair?
Can you talk about that alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, they're complementary relationships,
right?
A lot of times we seek out thecharacteristics and other people
that we don't have in ourselves, hoping that that might bring
us up to a level of confidence,and sometimes it works.
Sometimes it can be very tricky.
So if you have a femaleespecially, you know I have some
(07:07):
clients that are in high schooland they have their first
relationship and they're very,very insecure.
They're sitting in the leftchair.
They're attracted to men ifthey're same sex.
They're attracted to a partnerthat is really overconfident, if
you will, because they desirethose traits, and so they
partner with them.
And then sometimes, a lot oftimes, what happens is the
(07:29):
person that is arrogant or cockyor power driven.
They see and seek out theweakness of the person in the
left chair, who is very insecure, and what was once attraction
now becomes a very unhealthydynamic where there's power over
and the person in the leftchair, who's already insecure,
(07:49):
becomes even more insecure asthey give away their identity to
somebody who seemingly seemsmore powerful than them.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So I just want to wrap my brain around it.
So if I'm not confident, if I'ma person who's not confident
and I seek out a very over thetop, arrogant, overpowering kind
of male dominant person, if I'min a heterosexual relationship,
I Well, you can just saymasculine traits you can say
masculine traits Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Because females can have masculine traits as well.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That's true.
So I'm picking that personbecause they're mirroring what I
say to myself.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
They're.
They're mirroring what youdon't have.
They're mirroring what youdon't have, and so you're
attracted to their confidencebecause you don't have it but,
it's an overconfidence.
It's an overconfidence that alot of people who are arrogant
and they are driven by power,they seek weaker personality so
that they can have power overthem and continue to have power
(08:48):
over them.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Hmm, boy, this is.
You know, this is like bringingup so much and I, I like that
we, you know, like when I wassitting there in the in the
concert and I was flashing backover the memories of Christmas,
like I was seeing a differentversion of myself.
You know, in some of the, insome of the memories, and I like
(09:11):
that, we can gain confidence,we have the power within
ourselves to move to a differentchair.
I love that, but I also, whenshe was talking, I also
recognize that I probably spenta lot of my life in the left
chair.
I don't think I've ever been inthe right chair, but I have
(09:32):
moved in and out of the middlechair a lot, depending on, and
it's fascinating and I thinkthat's what.
When I was listening to thepodcast, I was like how does
this, how does this help ouraudience of midlife women?
How can this tool be helpful?
You know, as we're moving andsome of those memories and some
of the things that have beenhappening over the last couple
(09:53):
weeks, for me is and I don'tactually don't experience this
very often, but that empty nestsyndrome, because I have been
decorating for Christmas andit's such a magical and special
time for me.
I want to help create thosememories.
Excuse me, with my, you know,my new family with with Brian
(10:15):
and I's blended family.
I would love to create some moreof those memories and you know,
it's just not possible all thetime, demographically it's not
always possible, but I findmyself being nostalgic for the
days when my children were homeand I had the opportunity to
create more memories with themabout that.
(10:35):
And so, as I'm thinking aboutthis topic, I'm thinking okay,
so we've got some women that aremoving probably into the empty
nest phase You'll be there in acouple years, most likely and
you know how do we, how do weuse this tool to navigate some
of the more difficulttransitions into midlife.
(10:57):
What would you think?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Well, I think the tool is really about
self-awareness andself-assessment.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So in the chat talk she talks about.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
You know, when you listen to the characteristics
being described, which chair doyou think that you're in?
So, one of the ways that and Ilove that she said this is a
human problem age is irrelevant,because, yes, we're talking to
women in midlife, but this is a.
This is a human problem.
Okay, so we are.
We are looking at the to answeryour question, though how does
(11:29):
this impact midlife?
What are you saying to yourselfabout the transition?
Right, so that the questionbecomes how is being an empty
nester influencing yourself-talk?
How has being an influence oran empty nester contributing to
what you're saying to yourselfabout your own worth?
(11:50):
Do you have an identity outsideof the children if the children
are leaving home?
You know, one of the thingsthat Gary always talks to me
about is you know what?
At the end of the day, amanda,all of our kids are going to be
gone.
And it's you and I.
You're the ones left and wehave to have confidence in our
relationship and the stabilityof our friendship, because the
friendship is what's going tosustain us over the years.
(12:12):
It's interesting.
I was watching I'm a hugeNetflix binge watcher and I'm
watching this new one that justcame out called Six Feet Under,
and it's about this family thatowns a funeral home.
Okay, so it's hilarious.
It's if you haven't seen it andyou're looking for a new show,
six Feet Under.
But they go through all sorts ofthese transitions, right, and
(12:38):
they are, you know, trying tofigure out what their identity
is.
And they are grappling with itbecause the main character, the
father, dies in like the firstscene of the movie and or of the
series.
And now they're like looking attheir blind spots.
The whole show is aboutuncovering blind spots of what
happens when our needs aren'tmet and our confidence takes a
(13:01):
hit.
And then what kinds ofbehaviors?
What kinds of behaviors do wethen portray?
So how we think about ourselvesdrives how we feel about
ourselves, which drives ourbehavior, right?
So if one of the characters inthe show is noticing that he's
constantly pining for hisfather's affection and attention
(13:22):
and to be a priority, but henever gets it.
Then he has a less, he has alower self-esteem, which makes
him feel not worthy, becausehe's pining after somebody's
attention that he can never get.
So then what does he do for hisbehavior?
He puts up a wall and he'ssuper, super emotionally
unavailable to people, becauseif he's unemotionally available
(13:43):
to people, then people can'thurt him even more.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So, you know, as we go through life, you know the
scenario may change.
The the what we're goingthrough may change, but what
doesn't change is how we thinkabout ourselves, which leads to
how we feel about ourselves toleads to how we behave.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Right, and as I'm walking through Hobby Lobby the
other day, and I think it wasjust because there were like so
many moms and their kids inthere that day, and you know I
saw a range of differentbehaviors out of the moms and
the kids.
You know some of the moms youcould just tell, or you know the
very nurturing and, and theother moms were just so
impatient and I I just I justkind of was like take, took
(14:26):
myself back to those days and Igot, I got hit with this like
wave of sadness, like oh my gosh, I feel lost.
I feel lost today.
And then I stopped and gotcurious about like where were
these feelings coming from?
I started asking myself somequestions and you know, one of
the questions I asked myself isdo I only do what I do for other
(14:49):
people or do I do it because itbrings me joy as well?
And the answer wasoverwhelmingly yes, it brings me
a lot of joy.
And then the second thing I hadto say to myself because we are
, you know, talking to ourselvesconstantly right is I choose
joy, I am choosing joy.
I'm not going to be sad overthis holiday season.
(15:13):
I'm not going to be sad that mymom is no longer here to share
it with us.
I'm very intentionally choosingjoy today and I snapped out of
it pretty quickly.
But you know I did tell Brian.
I said you're going to have tobe patient with me at times
during this holiday seasonbecause I am choosing joy today,
(15:35):
but at any moment, you know, Icould slip back into.
I miss.
You know, I miss the.
You know I think I've told youthe story about years ago when I
had a very solid group offriends at one of the jobs I
worked at and one of the nursesmade a very, you know, very
(15:55):
wonderful experience for all ofus at Christmas time.
And we've, you know, we've haddifferent things where we've
done, like white elephant thingsand potlucks, and you know,
working from home by yourself,like you don't get those
opportunities during this timeof year to interact with other
people and I actually was in aFacebook group of, you know,
(16:17):
midlife women, men and men andwomen, perry men and men and
women, and you know they weresaying, oh well, I don't have
anybody, I don't celebrate, Idon't celebrate the holidays, I,
it's easier just to be aloneand I'm like that's not.
I just don't think that's theright mindset heading into the
holidays.
I think you know if you'retempted to to choose the sad, to
(16:40):
choose the nostalgia, to choosethe more painful, like I think
it's going to be a much harderexperience for you and you're
I'm assuming you're sitting wayover in the left chair with no
hopes of getting to the middlechair at that point.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Sure, I mean, a lot comes up for me there.
You know, sometimes it's okayto sit there.
Sometimes it's okay to sitthere in that nostalgia and let
yourself feel that nostalgia andthat pain and you know to say
it's not okay.
I wouldn't go that far.
I think that people are ontheir own journey and you know
(17:18):
for me to tell another personit's not okay to sit in that
chair for a while maybe they,you know they need to sit in
that chair.
A lot of clarity comes from that.
You know you can't have lightwithout dark, and one of the
things that I'm learning in mylife is that you know, instead
of running from the dark, whatcan I learn from the dark?
(17:38):
Why?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
is the dark here right now.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You know what is the dark teaching me right now.
So you know, I guess I'd haveto disagree a little bit on that
part.
But you don't want to stay inthe dark right.
Kind of like what you said whenyou said that to Brian.
Like you know, what I mighttoday I'm choosing joy, but it
might not be like this every day, right, but to know that, you
(18:04):
know, sometimes it does lastmultiple days.
If it lasts more than a coupleof weeks, you know, definitely
get some help.
But I think that your point iswell made For me.
As you were talking, you knowyou're feeling that nostalgia
over the kids being little andlike having people come over and
decorate and having this richcommunity of friends.
You know, on Thursday is mymom's two year death anniversary
(18:28):
and so so Christmas time for methe last two years I've learned
, is a little bit different.
And you want to talk abouttransitions right, like a
transition when you get olderand we lose people and the
holidays and the meaning ofholidays starts to change a
little bit, kind of like yousaid, with losing your mom.
(18:50):
So it's been a really tough weekfor me and I suspect that
Thursday's probably going to betough as well, because there's a
lot of there's a feeling ofinjustice because she passed
away at 62 years old and I feellike she deserved more life and
she loved Christmas, and sothat's where you know that
(19:12):
emotional intelligence comes inand actually Karen Gordon talked
about that that part of beingconfident and finding that
middle chair more often isemotional intelligence.
And so I'm starting to thinklike, okay, the darkness is
there and I can allow thedarkness to be there, but it's
not an either or it's a both,and there's going to be darkness
(19:35):
and there's going to be light.
On Thursday, on my mom's twoyear death anniversary, there's
going to be darkness because ofthe longing and the loss and the
injustice of how I feel she wastaken too soon, but there's
going to be this great lightthinking about how she
absolutely loved Christmas andyou know, one of the last
Christmases that we ever spenttogether.
(19:56):
We had all of our cousins downon the mountain and she lived in
a holler and the hills of NorthCarolina and she had her friend
come up and she gave usmassages.
And it's super rustic.
Don't think of anything fancyor like a spa, think of like a
really dirty barn and you cansmell like dog shit in the room
(20:22):
and there's like stale beer.
But there's this really comfybed and this person that knows
what they're doing and they'regiving you the best massage in
the world and you feel likeyou're in the twilight zone and
it's like it's not either orit's both, and this is crazy.
There's dark but there's lightand they can both exist at the
(20:42):
same time, and I think part ofbeing in that middle chair is
like allowing that to exist.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I love that analogy.
That was such an awesome story.
So let's talk about, like, onceyou're in the middle chair and
you let's.
You know I loved I think shekind of went down this path a
little bit with podcast is youknow?
So what if you meet your spousewhen you're really young and
I'm sure you you're going to beable to relate to this in your,
in your practice what if youcome across your spouse when
(21:12):
you're really young and you getmarried and now you know you've
moved into that middle chair andyou've spent the last several
years like, really working onyourself, working on your growth
, but your spouse hasn't changedalong with you, like, I'm sure
you experienced that.
This is so hard.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
I have lots of clients and that experienced
this and usually it is just afact that when couples go to
counseling, usually it is thefemale that initiates counseling
.
If it's the same sexrelationship, the female, nine
times out of 10, will initiateand bring her husband.
Usually he does not want to comeand he, you know, begrudgingly
(21:55):
goes in and sits down andlistens and I feel like that's
like my one shot, you know, it'slike that Eminem song, like you
got one shot.
I really show my value, that Ican help, because you know
they're very resistant a lot ofthe times.
But, to answer your question, alot of women who marry young
(22:17):
they get to a point where theyhave really noticed the impact
of the hit on their self esteem,of sort of trading in their
freedom, identity for mom,identity.
And then they look around andthey realize like a lot of the
experiences that they saw othershaving was those were things
that they didn't get to have.
(22:38):
And then they start reallydoing a lot of self development,
a lot of reading and they'rethey're just growing in so many
ways and their husband doesn'teven recognize them anymore.
And their partner doesn'trecognize them anymore.
And now there's this powerdifference and it feels very
threatening to the person thatis not doing the work because
they're like what happened tothe person I married.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And all I can say is something that when I got
married, the pastor who marriedme said I can't tell you how
many times people come in andsay you know, we've just grown,
we've just changed, and itdoesn't feel like we're the same
people that we were when we gotmarried.
And he said during the sermon hesaid duh you probably shouldn't
(23:21):
, be Probably shouldn't be likewe're here to grow and to evolve
, like if you just look at thefresh baby that comes out of the
oven and like look at thenewness and the freshness and
then look at the over thelifespan.
Like even our skin changes, wehave wrinkles.
We were growing, we're evolving.
And with that comes change.
(23:43):
And so I say to the people thatare resistant to change you
know, it is a factor of wellnessand I know that most people
like to see themselves as peoplewho have the ability to grow
and change and adapt and develop, no matter what kind of
cultural background they comefrom.
And we can agree on that.
(24:03):
And so if we can agree on that,would you be open to hearing
about this?
And then usually people are so.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, and Dr Karen said, one of the things that you
can always do is work onyourself.
You can't always that's theonly thing you really have
control of is you know your ownself and hopefully the person
that you're changing intobecomes someone that's even more
attractive to your partner, andthey're like hey, I see this, I
(24:32):
want to get on board with this.
You know it's interesting.
You were talking about the showsix feet under Brian and I also
watched a TV show that has agreat impact on our marriage and
I've brought this up to youseveral times before, I know,
but it's a show called Marriedat First Sight and it's where
these couples come together.
They get matched by these youknow, quote unquote experts, and
last night's episode was prettyinteresting and one of the
(24:55):
things that you know, becausewe'll pause it during the show,
like you know, what do you thinkabout that?
And one of the things and myhusband has grown so much, just
tremendously in the time we'vebeen together, and so you know
when we are talking about thespouse that is changing.
I think it's important to notethat you do have influence over
(25:16):
your spouse, and I remembersaying that to a coaching client
and she was like, oh, I don'tthink so.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, we do,we have, we have influence over
our spouse.
But I would say that's one areaI've influenced Brian and is a
lot of curiosity about growth.
And so last night'sconversation kind of surprised
me a little bit because his takeon this particular topic that
(25:38):
we were kind of paused anddiscussing was well, if you were
, if you were meant for eachother, you wouldn't have so much
conflict.
And I said I said I thinkconflict is normal and healthy
Not that I love it, because weall know I don't but but he said
no, if you, if you are, if youare with the right person, if
(25:58):
you are matched appropriately,there shouldn't be a lot of
conflict.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (26:05):
I mean, I think there's a balance and I think it
depends on personality.
I mean, I'm married to somebodywho loves to debate when my
husband is in the room with hisdaughter.
His daughter and him are sosimilar.
And they will argue about thecolor blue, they will debate
about the color blue.
(26:25):
They'll really enjoy it.
And I'm looking at her husbandand he's looking at me and I'm
like, oh my gosh, I can't evenbelieve we just wasted 10
minutes of our lives listeningto that conversation.
I mean, truly, I'm baffled.
And you see my eyes, I ambaffled.
(26:46):
Some personalities like to kindof jar.
They like to spar.
They like to spar.
I don't, I'm not that type ofperson, and Gary knows it about
me.
So Gary expresses more of thatside of himself with other
people, because he has learnedto listen to me Like, look, I'm
less attracted to you when youdo that and I know you want me
(27:07):
to be attracted to you, right,babe?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, To me in question, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I'm not trying to heck him, shut off who he is.
I'm saying that part ofcognitive complexity and
emotional intelligence is likeOK, in this situation this is
appropriate.
In that situation, that'sappropriate.
That just means that you knowhow to move in and out and meet
people's needs and deepen theirrelationship.
When he is that way with me, Idon't feel close to him.
(27:35):
When he and Pax and Jar andthey spar like that, they feel
close to each other becausethat's like their dynamic.
So I don't usually say like, oh, there's one size fits all
answer to those types ofrelational questions.
I will say this One of thethings that they talked about on
the podcast that was theinspiration for this podcast is
(27:57):
that the woman said I think itwas Dr Karen Gordon.
She said my husband noticeswhen I spend time with people
that are healthy for me, becausewhen I'm with my girlfriends
and I come home and he's likebabe, you are just energized.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And you feel like full, you seem full of life.
And then he said he will noticethat when I come home and
somebody has really just likeknocked me down and he'll say I
think you might have a frenemy.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Are you sure?
Speaker 3 (28:25):
that that person you're allowing to have access
to your energy is not a frenemy.
So we need to.
As we get older and I think wedo a much better job of this in
our 40s and 50s is we decidethat maybe we've outgrown some
friendships.
And maybe we.
That doesn't mean it's a badthing.
I have outgrown manyfriendships.
(28:46):
Many friends have outgrown meand I look at those friendships
with great nostalgia.
I would not take back any ofthose moments with any of the
friends that are no longer apart of my life because we've
grown in different ways.
But I also probably wouldn'tchoose the same friends anymore,
like I'm different.
(29:07):
And she even talks about thebrain and the brain science and
how, after 40, like, what wefind attractive in a friend is
even different.
So it's like yeah, it's like youknow, one of my favorite
authors, Dr Sue Johnson fromHold Me Tied up, talks about
attachment and she's like youknow, instead of pathologizing
(29:29):
the changes that we experience,she says of course you are, Of
course you do, it's your way ofexperiencing the world and
interacting with the world andthat's your roadmap and that's
OK, Like that doesn't mean thatthat person's bad or you're bad.
It just means that that energydoesn't fit anymore, and that's.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
OK, I know exactly what you're saying when I think
back about friendships that feltso right and perfect at the
time.
You've outgrown them, you're adifferent person, but it doesn't
mean that you regret beingfriends with them.
And you and I talk aboutdeepening friendships a lot.
But I think we also need to bemindful of when a friendship is
(30:12):
no longer serving us because wehave grown so much and they talk
about this on the podcast alittle bit Like if you are in a
period of growth in your life,if you are doing something and
you're, let's say, let's use youfor an example You're on fire
with your career, like you'redoing leadership training and
you're a college professor andyou're doing mental health
(30:35):
counseling, if some of yourfriends aren't cheering you on
and being excited, if they'vegone silent or if they've gone
critical.
That's a friendship to evaluate, to see if it's still serving
you, versus a woman who sits inthe middle chair is going to be
your champion.
She's going to be cheering youon, she's happy for you, she's
excited, she's bragging aboutyou to your husband when you get
(30:58):
done, having a conversationabout how amazing you are.
Those are the type offriendships I think you and I
are encouraging on thesepodcasts.
Those are the types ofrelationships we want you to
seek out.
So I love this topic.
I wish we had a lot more time todig into it, but I am going to
recommend the book the ThreeChairs.
I know it has a byline, I can'tremember it.
(31:18):
I'm Dr Karen Gordon.
I'm going to put the link inthe show notes.
Also going to link Dr MindyPels's Resetter podcast.
I definitely recommend thisepisode, but she has many more
great episodes for you to listento as well.
And is there anything you'dlike to leave the audience with
today?
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Oh, just that.
I want to echo what you said,and that is, when you leave a
person's presence, if you feelbetter and more energized,
you're with the right person.
If you leave a person and youseem drained and you're second
guessing everything and goingback to your question about what
do you think about what Briansaid?
If there's so much conflict, Ireally just want to go
(32:01):
downstream and go with the flow,and when you're in the presence
of somebody who really growsyou, everything feels so easy.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And maybe that's what he meant.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
It's like man.
It is so nice to be with yourpeople.
It is so nice to just know I canjust be and it's easy and it
flows, and I want to do more ofthat and less of the other.
So have a great day everyone.
We just can't say enough howgrateful we are about your
(32:31):
feedback that you give us.
So if there's anything that youthought of today while we were
talking, go over to the Facebookgroup and tell us, maybe what
chair you're in and what seasonyou're in.
Are you in the left chair, themiddle chair, the right chair?
Maybe you're in the right chairwith certain people and in the
middle chair with other people.
Maybe at home you're in themiddle chair, but at work you're
(32:52):
in the left chair.
So there's lots of things tothink about and we encourage you
to check out those podcasts.
Have a wonderful day.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Bye everybody.
Amanda, I don't know if thisever happens to you, but I
sometimes will learn somethingreally cool on a podcast, on a
YouTube video, audiobook,whatever.
I think I'm going to rememberit and then I forget.
Does that ever happen to you?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah, I call it brain after 40 all the time.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
That's what we'll officially call it, but we've
come up with something.
Do you want to introduce it?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Sure, it's from an app called Quick Jim Quick and
it's an acronym called FAST.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, and the F stands for Facebook.
So we're inviting youofficially right now to come
over and join us on Facebook.
Get involved with the community, share your favorite episodes
with your friends on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah, the A is go ahead and take an action, so you
can't remember anything if youdon't act.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
And S is for subscribe.
Make sure you're subscribed toour YouTube channel.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
And then T is teach.
Teach what you've learned tosomebody else.
Share the love.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
All right, we hope that works for you.
Thank you for joining us.
We'll see you next week.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Bye-bye.
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