June 23, 2025 • 50 mins
Today on What's My Frame I'm joined by Director, Michael Lehmann. Michael studied at Columbia University and the USC School of Cinema Television before directing his first feature, HEATHERS, in 1989. Today Michael shares how he joined the iconic film along with other favorite memories from set.
Notable credits include HUDSON HAWK, THE TRUTH ABOUT CATS AND DOGS, 40 DAYS AND 40 NIGHTS, THE WEST WING, BIG LOVE, TRUE BLOOD, THE BIG C, AMERICAN HORROR STORY, VERONICA MARS, SNOWFALL, and THE WOMAN IN THE HOUSE ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE GIRL IN THE WINDOW. Michael recently completed work as producing director on DEXTER: ORIGINAL SIN and shares the special attention used to honor the DEXTER Universe and fans.
Micheal clearly loves his work and respects his fellow creatives. This episode had many quotes I paused to jot down but one of my favorites "Our job is to play like we did when we were kids" A simple reminder of the gift we have as artists and to never lose the joy. Now let's get to the conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi everyone. Today on What's My Frame, I'm
joined by director Michael Lehman.
Michael studied at Columbia University and the USC School of
Cinema Television before directing his first feature,
Others in 1989. Michael shares how he joined the
iconic film along with favorite memories from past work.
Notable credits include Hudson Hawk, The Truth About Cats and
Dogs, The West Wing, Big Love, True Blood, and so many more.
(00:26):
Michael recently completed work as Producing director on Dexter
Original Sin and shares the special attention used to honor
the Dexter universe and fans. Michael clearly loves his work
and respects his fellow creatives.
This episode had many quotes I paused to jot down, but one of
my favorites was Our job is to play like we did when we were
kids. A simple reminder of the gift we
(00:47):
have as artists and to never lose that joy.
Now let's get to the conversation.
Hey Michael, welcome to What's my frame?
How are you doing? I'm great and happy to be here.
Oh thank you for making the timefor anyone who isn't familiar
with your prolific career. I've had greatest joy the last
like 2 weeks. I've been rewatching so much of
(01:09):
your work. But could you take a little back
story and your origin of creative influences mentors the
opportunities that helped craft your career?
I was one of those kids who, youknow, wanted to be a movie
director from an early age, but I also wanted to be an artist
and had a lot of visual art background.
(01:30):
So in college, I went to art school for a while but hated
that, and then studied philosophy and almost became a
serious academic but decided it wasn't the life for me.
And then I said, well, I'm goingto go work in the movies.
And I applied to film schools, and I got a job answering the
phones for Francis Coppola. And it's a long time ago.
So I work in the movie business for a bit with Francis doing
(01:54):
really interesting stuff at a very low level for production
assistant and then sort of management stuff until I finally
went to film school and then did, did the USC, you know, made
short films on this sort of thing.
And, and managed to, you know, make my way early in my career
and, and make movies, which I did for years and then
(02:16):
transitioned, started doing television because I liked being
on set and like working with actors that didn't want to spend
forever just developing things. And, and so then, yeah, you
know, I've, I've made a bunch ofmovies.
I've made a lot of television and a lot of good quality cable
stuff and streaming things. And that's where I am.
What was it about directing specifically that really sparked
(02:38):
your curiosity? In the beginning, it was a lot
of visual stuff. I mean, and I liked directors
who had, you know, strong visuals.
But, you know, I'm with the generation where, you know, the
heroes were Francis Coppola, Martin Scorsese, Stanley
Kubrick. I like those kind of films.
I've always drawn to comedy. To me, primarily comedy and
(03:02):
particularly dark comedy that was satirical, that pushed a lot
of buttons that that raised questions and that made dark
humor out of serious subjects. So that's what got me into it.
And the more I've done it, the more I've become really much
(03:24):
more focused on performance issues and just good
storytelling. I, I don't, I think it has some,
at a certain point I kind of thought, well, you can do great
shots, you can design really cool visual stuff and that
should be second nature. But working with actors is
always a process of discovery, and I really enjoyed that.
(03:45):
Having evolved from film to television and seen so many
iterations of the industry, how have you stayed flexible,
evolved your process, kept it fresh for yourself because you
have been doing it for a minute and have this beautiful resume,
but are still actively working and taking on new challenges?
(04:06):
You know, when I step onto a setin the morning, I'm immediately
delighted and happy. And, you know, it's just, it's,
it's kind of crazy, but I love the work.
I love the fact that what we do for a living is we show up
someplace. We have a whole lot of resources
at our disposal and our job is to play.
(04:27):
Our job is to play like we did when we were kids.
I get to do that every day at work.
So I don't, I don't really, I don't get tired of it.
I don't want to stop it. I don't get cynical about it.
I think there probably been times in my life when I've been
pretty cynical about it. But you know, at this point, I
like working with the people andI like the fact that we're
(04:48):
making stuff, that it's all makebelieve with a purpose.
Yeah. Do you have any favorite
collaborators that you've gottento work with a number of times?
Yeah, there are writers that I like to work with, that I've
worked with a number of times. That the guy Dan Waters, who
wrote Heather's, who is a geniusand very funny.
(05:09):
I I'm still close friends with him.
I've tried to do other things with him.
I did other things a long time ago with him.
A lot of people I went to film school with I share a lot with.
I don't necessarily do work withthem, but we're part of the
crowd still and that's many years.
I think I've finished film school 1985.
(05:29):
I guess that would be a while ago now, right?
So we're still in touch actors when I can, I work with the same
actors. It's it's hard.
It depends on availability, it depends on the roles, and it
depends on whether I'm principally involved in casting
or just advising on casting. It depends on the project.
But I recently had a chance to work with Christians later again
(05:53):
after many years of not working with them.
And that was really fun, you know, to go back to somebody I'd
worked with 35 years ago and be on set with them again.
So yeah, there are a lot of people I like to work with and
and stick with. Also crew members, directors of
photography, that sort of thing.Always try to get people I know.
(06:13):
Yeah. I I think that those are the
kind of stories that I love to hear because I think so often,
especially in the current iteration of the industry where
so much of it feels very long distance or a game of telephone,
it's so nice to be reminded of how many people are champion for
the talent that they enjoy working with and that they
respect and enjoy. Our name is being brought up in
(06:36):
rooms, so we have no idea about and we don't know where those
seeds that are being planted, when they will, when they will
sprout. But I think it's a real
positive. And in times like this, when
there's a disconnect, what is a creative challenge that you
would like to take on in the future?
I'd like to get back to doing more of that dark comedy that I
started with, that I liked. I mean, it's a creative
(06:56):
challenge that never goes away and it's an interest.
It's never gone away. It's very hard to get those
things made. It's and then if they get made,
it's really hard to keep them pure and they kind of need to be
pure or else they don't work. When joining a new project, how
do you prep and find your creative vantage point and then
also start working with your fellow film makers on that
(07:17):
project or fellow creatives? Well, if I'm starting a project
that is really launching from scratch, you know, if there's a
pilot script or a book that's being adapted or something like
that, I educate myself from the basics from the beginning as
much as I can. And I talked to the writer.
(07:38):
If I'm not developing it myself,I talked to the writer and I try
to get a real sense of what why they're doing what they're
doing, what's meaningful to themso that if I'm going to be
collaborating, I know what the playing field is.
I don't do like crazy research into character types or the
history unless it's really, really pertinent to the project.
(08:02):
But I do try to immerse myself in the world as much as
possible. And then I make sure I have
meetings and interactions with all the principal creative
people that are already involvedbefore I get there.
And that's can be just one person, like a writer or
showrunner or producer, or it can be a group that's already
(08:24):
together. If the if it's a show that are
has been up and running, I try to watch every episode they've
ever made in the show. That's tricky when you know the
Dexter. I think I did in the fifth or
sixth season, and I did not watch every episode before I
came in just to direct one. But I watched a lot of them.
(08:46):
You know, I'd seen a lot of the show.
So, you know, I try to educate myself as much as possible
because when you're directing, you want to know.
You'd want to know what everybody else knows.
You don't want them to tell you in the middle of a scene.
You know why we did this in thatepisode 4 years ago?
You know, so I, I educate myselfas well as I can and I get
(09:06):
myself into the, into the spiritof whatever the project is.
I love that I get into the spirit of the project.
What is your methodology for marking up your script and
envisioning your shots coming inbefore before day one?
I well, I used to just write on my scripts like crazy little
notes here and there. Nowadays I use scriptation.
(09:30):
There are a lot of programs, butscriptation is good because when
you get new drafts of scripts, your notes transfer over.
And starting a few years ago, I tried to go as much electronic
as possible. And I'm, it's really good
because then if I have my computer or my iPad or even my
phone, I have access to everything so stuff doesn't go
(09:51):
away. And if I have paper, I walk
around with piles of paper and Ilose it all.
So I love the fact that we can be paperless now.
So scriptation is a big part of my process.
And I take so on a television show where there's a series of
very structured meetings, you know, concept meeting, tone
(10:13):
meeting, prompt meetings, all this sort of stuff.
I use a different color writing for each meeting.
And that way when I review all my stuff as I go along, I can
see all this came up in that meeting or that meeting.
I'm pretty good with that. I make notes about character.
I make notes about references toany material that that's based
(10:35):
on. And for the actual breakdown of
shots, I sit with the script. I usually have a computer with a
reasonably large screen, and on one side, on the left, I have
the script, on the right I just have a word processing program.
And I read the script and I think, and I think, and I think,
and I start to write down shots,images, things connected to a
(11:00):
scene. And I've done this for so long
that it's pretty easy for me to break it down.
And it might be as simple as, OK, it's a dialogue scene.
I'm going to shoot a master. I'm going to, if I know the
location, I make notes about where the master is going to be
from, what kind of lenses, what kind of shots.
And then I break down the individual pieces of coverage
(11:21):
that I think I'm going to need. And I just write it out in a
list. And then that list includes not
just information about the shots, but also notes for
performance and just some kind of stupid notes like don't
forget to do this, you idiot, you know, that sort of thing.
And I do make that that list accessible to all the people who
(11:42):
need to see it on set. So they're sometimes pointing
something and going, what is this?
Well, that's for me. You don't, Don't worry about
that. You sound like a very similar
note taker to myself. I love I live for my color-coded
pens. That is that's that that keeps
me organized and it keeps it pretty.
That's that's what I'm going. I've never been that person
(12:03):
before, by the way. It was only when I got this
program that transferred the notes and I realized that if I
did that, I'd have a better ideaof where those ideas were coming
from. We talked about this before we
started recruiting, but you've also worked as an executive
producer on a number of your projects.
And I would love to hear, because the executive producer
(12:24):
roles and responsibilities varies, did you share a little
bit about your experiences and what your contributions have
been as an EP on your projects? Yeah.
So, you know, when you make a movie as the director, you are,
you're essentially the short runner.
You know, you you're the final arbitrator of most creative
decisions in the world of television and streaming.
(12:45):
That's not the case as a director.
So if I'm on as an executive producer, it means that I'm
doing my directing work, but I also have further
responsibilities, some of which are dependent on how much the
writer showrunner is willing to share or give to me.
And part of it has to do with what my relationship is with
(13:06):
that person. So there are a couple
showrunners I've worked with whowant me in the writers room.
They want me involved in everything I'm willing to get
involved in. And I'm, I'm really willing to
get involved in just about everything creatively to try to,
if, if not contribute to at least be aware of what's going
on. So I can be involved in the, in
(13:28):
the writers room. Although I, I look at my job
there as being helping them write things that are going to
be production friendly or that Ithink warning them when they
write scenes that I think would be very, very difficult to pull
off, that they're at least awareof what they're up against.
And then heavily involved in casting, which I think is
(13:51):
absolutely crucial. And once again, when I have a
really good collaborative relationship with the
showrunner, then I think that, you know, casting is really
shared by us. And I'd love to work with
showrunner writers who have a good sense of casting because
some of them are much better than others.
(14:11):
You know, I'll, if I'm not directing every episode, I will
very gently supervise the other directors who don't like to get
in their way. I don't like to be on their
sets. But I also make sure that they
understand what the history of everything is and who they need
to watch out for and how they need to, you know, how they need
(14:35):
to interact with the people thatcan be complicated and that sort
of thing. And I will look at their cuts.
And then if, if things work out well, I, I stay heavily involved
in post as much as possible, including, you know, going to
the sound mixes and all that sort of stuff to make sure
everything's right. As being an AP and seeing that
(14:58):
side of the world and working and that empowered you more so
as a director when you are just coming on as a guest director.
Yes and no. I mean because I directed movies
before I ever directed television.
I many, many years ago when I first went in and did a couple
(15:18):
of broadcast TV shows, I didn't really understand the limited
function of a director in old fashioned television.
They did not want you to be a full on director like you are
when you make a movie that they actually presented.
If you, if you went over, if youoverstepped, you know, they
wanted somebody who's going to give them the footage that they
(15:39):
needed so they could cut the show and have it the way they
wanted. And they wanted somebody who'd
be on set to deal with the actors.
Because a lot of people who wrote television then and now
don't like actors, you know, ButI mean, that's a fact, you know,
they, they, they think actors are necessary and they like what
(16:00):
actors do, but they don't like having to deal with the actors
because in their head, I've written this.
I want to see it exactly the wayI imagined it.
So. If I hear it in my head.
Hear it the way I heard it. Yeah, I I want that line read
exactly the way I So, yeah, whenI come in as a guest director
(16:22):
now, after all the years of experience doing this, I try to
make sure that the showrunner and I see it the same way.
And I ask a lot of questions andIoffer up a lot of this is how I
plan on doing it. Are you going to be good with
that? And I look at the work that's
been done by other directors andI try to figure out if there are
(16:45):
things that I think have been happening in the show that
aren't great. I'll tactfully say I think we
can improve this element. I don't like to say anything
negative about what's there. I just, you know, say I think I
can improve it. Or I think if we go in this
direction, it might be good. And that can relate to
performance. It can relate to shooting style,
all that sort of stuff. But when a showrunner tells me,
(17:09):
which they frequently do, you can do whatever you want as long
as you give me my close-ups, I think, OK, close-ups, big alarms
go off. Give me meaning.
They want me to provide them with something for them to use.
And they say my close-ups meaning that's all they care
about and they're going to use them no matter what.
(17:32):
And this is very old fashioned TV, right?
You know, talking heads. It's not necessarily wrong.
It's not necessarily bad. And it sometimes reflects the
desire that a writer has to makesure that they can see an
actor's face and their eyes and get a close up and, and hear
them say the lines exactly the way the writer conceived and
(17:54):
when they wrote them. And I, I actually respect that.
I mean, I used to not respect itso much.
I've learned that it just means that it's really important to
them, almost like watching a play.
They just want to see the actorsdo do what they wrote.
And they don't want shots that distract from that in their
mind. Never.
They don't want anything that that directors might think might
(18:16):
enhance what they've written. They just want to make sure that
if they need to, they can micromanage the material in post
production by cutting to close-ups and using close-ups.
Yeah. And, and if I happen to take a
job on a show like that, which Igenerally don't do, but if I do
and if I have a good relationship with the writer,
(18:37):
sometimes they're my friends. I just understand that I
shouldn't be wasting my time trying to do complicated
choreography because it's never going to end up in the show.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. And as you were, as you were
describing that, as you know, I I grew up and, and when I was in
school, it was always kind of told to U.S.
(19:00):
TV as a writer's medium, film asthe director's medium.
And I think one of the beautifulthings about TV and streaming
now is we have so many more filmdirectors that are directing TV
and it's a much more collaborative and community art.
Yeah, I, I tried to understand this and I realized something
that isn't really talked about very often, which is that cinema
(19:24):
was a visual art when it started.
There was no, there was no sound, you know, there was no
dialogue. So the tradition of cinema and
movie directors is one of visualstorytelling primarily.
Whereas television crew out of radio where there was no
pictures and, you know, writers wrote radio plays.
(19:46):
And a lot of those writers also came from theater, where, yes,
you can do very interesting visual staging.
But traditionally people didn't necessarily do that in the days
of radio, you know what I mean? So the people who grew up loving
television and wanting to work in television and wanting to be
the creative force in televisiontended to be writers, and they
(20:07):
were word oriented and they were.
And they were not necessarily visual.
And the people who made movies generally liked seeing things on
the big screen, and they understood that their job was to
be visual storytellers, so. This was fine for many years,
but once the production levels and expectations of audiences
(20:30):
raised way up, we're talking 30 years ago really now with the
rise of quality cable television, that sort of thing.
There was a lot of friction sometimes between writers and
directors over this, but there was also great collaboration.
When you could get a writer who was oriented from television and
serial storytelling and all those sorts of things.
(20:51):
If you could get them to understand that their work would
benefit from the visual possibilities that were
available to them in the medium as it was growing, then you
could get great collaboration. It's so obvious what you just
said, but I never really thoughtabout it of the root origin,
where it came from dictated so, so much of the the early history
(21:15):
of both. Yeah, yeah.
Wow. And nobody talks about it.
I don't know why it is obvious. Going back to your executive
producing, you worked on the original Dexter as a director
for several episodes, but then also came on as a director and
an EP for Original Sin. How did you all balance honoring
such a fan favorite that warranted bringing back a a new
(21:40):
iteration of the show, but also finding original Sins own voice
for a new audience as well? Yeah, it was a big, it was a big
challenge. I I loved the original Dexter.
I think Michael C Hall is an amazing actor and that they had
well, the all the actors, all the original actors were
fantastic and it was a show I really enjoyed doing it.
(22:02):
I I was busy on other stuff during the first seasons of
Dexter and I never reached out to them and they never reached
out to me. But even though I knew a bunch
of people involved and finally one day I I can't remember if I
just got a call or if I called them, but I was signed on to do
these episodes and and I really,really had a great time with the
(22:23):
cast. So I loved the show and I knew
it well. When Original Sin was being put
together, a production designer named Eric Weiler, who might
work with on other things, told me that they were doing the
show. And he and I were both friends
with the line producer, Robert Lewis, who was more than just
(22:44):
the line producer. He'd done, I think, every
episode of the original Dexter. And he's somebody I've worked
with a lot. And I just talked to Robert and
I said, well, if you're, if you're at a point where you're
looking for directors, please keep me in mind.
And they did. And I took a meeting with them
and figured out you, you know, got the lay of the land of what
(23:05):
they were trying to do. So it just seemed like a great
challenge. And I, I loved the people
involved whom I'd known. And there were a few people that
were principals. Clyde Phillips, who ran the
show, was somebody I'd never worked with because he was no
longer involved in the original Dexter by the time I got there.
But he had done the earlier episodes.
(23:26):
And he's really good. And he's a great writer.
He's very experienced. So, you know, the biggest
challenge was casting people to play the younger versions of
these great parts that had existed for eight seasons, you
know, on the original show. And that was that was kind of
that was the toughest thing to figure out.
(23:47):
I think we did a really good jobbecause we have a great cast and
and we knew that the fans would kill us if we didn't make good
decisions there. I mean, the Dexter fans are so
obsessive. They they know everything.
They know every detail. They really, really love the
show. And so.
Shy about telling you if you if you misstepped.
(24:08):
Oh yeah, There's a guy named Scott Reynolds who is an
executive producer on He was on the writing staff from the very
beginning, on the first Dexter series all the way through the
end. And he's one of the executive
producers on Original Sin. And Scott is an amazing person
and he's a true lover of movies and he knows everything about
(24:30):
Dexter. And he sort of protected the
history. He was so good about it.
He and he would sometimes say, we have to do it this way
because everybody, every fan whowatches this show is going to
know XY and Z and we cannot violate that.
He was, he was really, he was great to work with, but he was
(24:52):
also really helpful in protecting that, as was Clyde,
because Clyde really knew the show.
I would love to talk a little bit more about casting because
you would you'd mentioned you had a a strong voice in casting
decisions in the lists and that process.
And I think often, especially due to the disconnect now, we as
(25:13):
actors don't really know where our name is being brought up,
discussed, how it's being discussed, what is weighing that
scale one way or another in decisions about actors.
So if you wouldn't mind pulling back the curtain a little bit on
those kind of casting conversations for a show.
What I found, which is interesting, is that when I work
(25:33):
with experienced showrunner types and who have been around
doing television and cable and that sort of thing, they
actually have a really good knowledge of the actors that are
out there. Because if they were doing 26
episodes back in those days, they were seeing the work of a
(25:54):
lot of working actors, you know,and they have generally a lot of
relationships that are good. And so I, I find that to be a
positive thing. And it also really helps the
acting community because they don't have to prove who they are
each time out. And when they go in on
auditions, you know, you, I would see when I'd work with
(26:16):
them with showrunners who had a lot of experience, the actors
would come in and greet them andgo, do you Remember Me?
I was on this and that. And, and so, and, you know, I, I
had pretty good. I've been doing this so long
that I've got a lot of awarenessof at least the older actress
for sure. But then when you're casting
young people, you go to the casting director and you go who
(26:36):
you know, who do you have who's 17 years old or 16 years old or
10 years old or whatever. So, you know, you rely on the
relationships that people have and you rely on the, the, the
knowledge base that they have. But for me, I love to watch
auditions and I, I personally love to watch auditions in
person. I hate self tapes.
(26:57):
I hate video auditions of all kinds.
I know we're stuck with it. It's not going to go away, but I
like to be in a room with an actor.
It it makes a huge difference. And you know, the thing with
auditions is I rely on casting directors to bring people in.
So if there's somebody in particular that I know that I've
(27:19):
worked with and I think it wouldbe great for a role, I will say,
can you check on the availability of so and so?
You know, I do that for sure. But generally speaking, the
casting directors have a list. They, they say these are the
people that we'd like you to seeand they might have a lot of
them. And generally there's not much
(27:40):
discussion beforehand with the showrunners and all that.
We just show up for a session. But I, I, I'd like to see actors
I've worked with before, and I'dlike to see people that whose
work I know but I've never worked with.
But I also like to see people that I've never heard of and
never seen come into a room. The, the process is, for me,
(28:06):
fairly simple. I'd like the actor to come in
with what they've got prepared and I'll watch that and then I
want to give them an adjustment.This is why I like to do it in
the room, because the most important thing in casting is
actually understanding how what kind of adjustments actors are
(28:26):
willing and able to make. Because if even if an actor
comes in and nails it and it's perfect and it's exactly what I
want and I know it's exactly what I want, I will then give
them. I'll say I'm going to give you
some really bad direction, but please do your best with it and
see what happens when I take them in a completely different
direction. Because then you know that, you
(28:48):
know, it's a fluid process. Things change, things come, you
discover and you find out another actor does something
interesting that changes the course of things, but it's
really good. How does the how do the other
actors in the scene work with them?
That sort of thing or some idea comes up or we get a note from
somebody or whatever it is. So, you know, the casting
(29:10):
process is really important. If you if you've cast well and
you have good actors and they'reright for the parts, then things
go really well on set. Makes that a much smoother,
better place, more productive. Yes, you have you found in the
last five ish years guest stars and above you're able to have
those producer sessions and be in the room with the actors or
(29:33):
is even guest stars a lot of times still on tape?
Important callbacks on big roles, on guest starring roles
or principal roles are done in the room still.
I just say they have to be. And every once in a while we'll
be in a situation where we have to cast somebody and we only
have tape on them. Well, you also get situations
(29:55):
where it's offer only you know which, which is understandable
from an actor's point of view. They don't want to have to come
in an audition, but when it's offer only you, you have to
calculate. All right, well, what are what
are they likely to do and how isit and what are we getting into?
And have you worked with them before?
And do, you know, people have worked with them and all that
sort of stuff, But it's, I do everything I can to get actors
(30:23):
in the room with me just so I know exactly what we're dealing
with and so that I can also showthe actors that we're like
supportive. You know, I, I try to be really
supportive of actors. I don't want them to be
intimidated. I want them to know that they're
a big part of the creative process and that they'll be
respected. For those roles that are just on
(30:46):
tape, any advice or perspective on things that positively stand
out to you when watching selectson those smaller roles?
That's a good question. I think that a decisive approach
to the character is something you should have because it's we
can see it, you know, and I don't get this that often on
(31:10):
tapes, but if somebody is able to give two different
approaches, one take this way, another take that way, I'm not
sure every show runner, every person involved in casting feels
that way. I like to see that I go, oh,
good. You know, we have room there.
Yeah, that that's kind of it, you know, trying to get, if
(31:30):
you're doing a self tape, tryingto get somebody good to read
with you. That does make.
It it makes a difference and youknow and you can really tell.
And try to get them in the room with you.
I, I feel like it, it's, it's, it just adds another link in the
the telephone line that's unnecessary.
If you can be in the room and looking in someone's eyes, it
(31:52):
it. Makes such a difference.
Yeah, yeah. Have them in the room.
Have them standing right next tothe camera.
Yeah. So that your eye line goes into
the camera, you know, not not directly into the lens, but, you
know, so that we have a good, yeah, yeah.
But that we have a good eye lineto look at because that helps.
I heard you share in a past interview how simple direction
(32:14):
is often most effective. Could you elaborate a little bit
on that for our audience? Yeah, it it took me a long time
to learn this and I'm still sometimes lapsed into, as you
can tell, I talk a lot. But, but in dealing with actors,
I'd rather if I can say 3 words and convey something that gives
(32:36):
them the opportunity to shift their performance in the
direction of what I think will be better, that's a really good
thing. So I try not to engage in
intellectual discussions or complicated abstract things.
Those tend to be evasive. When an actor wants to talk like
that or when a director wants totalk like that, you're usually
(32:57):
avoiding, you know, it's avoidant behavior.
It's so, you know, simple words that are either motivations or
thoughts or things that can be translated into the, into
action, you know, verb kind of things, all the standard stuff
that are not negative, that are positive, but simple.
(33:20):
They help an actor maintain their performance without
feeling like they're trying to give you something super precise
exactly the way you want it. Because if you, if you task an
actor with that, chances are they're never going to give a
right authentic performance. You know, they can't.
They're, they're acting by numbers then.
(33:41):
And, and it doesn't work. And I have writers sometimes on
sets and in television and streaming stuff where the
writers are next to me going no,no, no, no, no.
They didn't say the line the wayI wanted them to.
And I go, just take it easy, youknow, and I try to find a way to
get the actor moving in the direction.
It'll probably give that writer something closer to what they
(34:02):
had in their head. But there will be an actual
expression of who the actor is and what they are.
I mean, The thing is that actorsare artists.
They're they're, they are going to bring something surprising,
something great, something that you couldn't even imagine and
breakdown. So keeping it simple gives them
(34:25):
the chance to exercise their artbetter.
Yeah, Yeah. Well, it's very clear that
you're an advocate for actors, both from the the audition
process to set. How do you like to build trust
and mutual respect with your actors?
Well, I'd like to be friendly tothem and to, and for them to
understand that, that everythingelse on the set matters less
(34:48):
than what they do. You know, because I got my head
filled with all this other stuff, you know, logistical
stuff, technical stuff, scheduling, that sort of thing.
I I really don't want the actorsto have to worry about that
stuff, but in terms of interacting with actors, I I
found I just have to be who I amand talk to them the way that I
(35:10):
am, which is a little ridiculous.
I tend to make really bad jokes and you know, I try to keep it
light. I wanted to be a friendly
collaboration. One thing I hate is when I show
up on set and I haven't met the actor at all before then.
This happens sometimes with day players who've been cast from
tape. So unless I'm absolutely crazy
(35:32):
overwhelmed, the first thing I do is come up and go, Oh my God,
I loved your audition. I'm so happy you're here.
You know, I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to talk before, but
if you have any questions, if you're concerned about anything,
just, you know, feel free to talk.
I like the actors to know that they can come at me with the
craziest stuff that they want. It doesn't matter.
(35:55):
We'll find a way to accommodate and.
As an actor, that's, that's justsuch a gift that like made my
day. Just hearing that on behalf of
other actors because positivity about our work and, and
reassurance, I think is something that has diminished a
(36:18):
lot in the last several years. And we don't get to hear those
reassurances of we like what you're doing.
Sometimes it feels like it's, you know, it's a, it's a line on
the call sheet and that's what we were filling.
And it's just, it's so the valuethat you're putting in is, is
just immeasurable and it makes such a difference.
(36:38):
Well, the, the interesting thingis, is that actors who have been
cast in a small tape layer part,you know, like a waiter, that
sort of thing, you know, or cop #3 you know, these, these sorts
of roles, you know, it's great if you're a working actor and
that's what you get. You should be happy.
You're, you know, you're going to get your benefits, you're
(36:59):
going to get some work, you're going to get on screen, all that
sort of stuff. But I try to politely also
explain the scene isn't really about all that great stuff you
want to bring to the role. You have to figure out how to
bring that great stuff in a way that looks like you brought
nothing because that's what yourjob is.
(37:21):
And so even for those roles, I, I like to try to find a way for
the accurate feel fulfilled, even though you know, the, the
role might be, you know, can I bring you your check, you know,
and. Then bathrooms.
On the hall. Just move it.
Move it along. Yeah, you're not going to win
(37:42):
the Emmy for this one, but but you, you have a job that is
tricky, you know? And you're also you're on set,
so let's find the joy. I would love to talk a little
bit about some of your early film projects.
Ethers was one of your very early projects.
How did it come to you? Did you realize at the time that
(38:05):
it was something so special thatwould evolve into, I mean, my
gosh, it has this whole other life as a probably musical.
I mean, it's just there's such alifespan that this project has
taken on in these characters andtheir voices.
I, I was very lucky, I mean honestly, because I was young
wannabe filmmaker and I had a friend named Larry Karazewski
(38:28):
who's a great writer and he's, he's written all sorts of
fantastic stuff with his partnerScott Alexander.
Larry and I went to film school together and he was high school
friends with Daniel Waters who wrote Heather's.
And I met Dan through Larry and I was told that Dan was writing
this amazing script called Heather's.
(38:50):
And Larry called me and said Danis looking for an agent to
represent him on this script. And Larry and his running
partner, Scott, had an agent, but their agent was not
interested in Dan's work. And Larry said, can you show it
to your agent? And I just was out of film
school and I had a really good agent who was good because she
(39:11):
had great taste and was very discerning.
Her name is Bobby Thompson. And so I said, yeah, OK, I, I'd
met Dan a couple of times. I was like, OK, let me read the
script. And it was 200 pages.
It was amazing. I didn't even completely get it
when I read it, but I said there's really amazingly funny
stuff in here. And I talked to Dan and I took
(39:36):
it to to my agent and she flipped for it.
So what happened was I was just helping Dan get an agent.
That was it. I wasn't supposed to be attached
to the project, but she signed him.
So I was a client of hers and sowas Dan.
And when she and she loved the script and a lot of people love
the script, but it was a tough one to make.
(39:58):
And I had a deal set up at New World Pictures and the the guy
who ran it was very savvy and very funny.
And when, when Bobby couldn't get this thing set up with at a
major studio with the big time director, I said why don't you
see if Dan wants to take it to? New World, where I am and where
a producer named Denise Denovi, who was really good, who also
(40:21):
had a deal there, said maybe we can do that.
So we took it to New World and ended up getting it made there.
So I, I lucked out because that was an, that was an
extraordinary script. And Dan and Denise and I, I
think we all saw it the same way.
(40:42):
And we were young and we'd nevermade a movie before, and we
really, really cared about that.And did we think it was special?
Yes. We we knew it was special
because the script was so good. Do.
You have any favorite memories from from set?
That was a really, really good group of people.
That was a happy set and it was a hard working set.
(41:04):
And so, you know, I've I've a lot of favorite memories working
with Winona because she was truly special.
You know, she was 16 years old and she was incredibly smart and
she was very funny and she completely got what the script
was. So she was a big cheerleader for
(41:26):
everybody every day on set and and that was good.
And Christian was amazing. Hudson Hawk, What was
collaborating with Bruce Willis like?
And I also, y'all were dancing between raindrops with the
stunts and the comedy on that one was just so, so good.
And also some of the stunts you all were able to do back then
(41:48):
without CGI, without trickery and magic.
Yeah. I would just love to hear what
that experience was like. Well, that was a complicated and
difficult experience after afterhaving done two small movies
that, you know, with, with a small group on a low budget.
(42:08):
Bruce was at the top of the world at that point.
You know, our first day of shooting for Hudson Hawk was the
Monday after the 4th of July weekend there with that Die Hard
two opened up and it had I thinkDie Hard 2 must have had one of
(42:28):
the biggest opening weekends of any movie ever.
So Joel Silver, the producer, and Bruce Willis, the star, were
riding as high as you can ride in Hollywood.
And Monday I show up, I'm directing.
First big movie I've ever done. And these guys think that they
are, you know, indestructible and that they're that they know
(42:53):
everything. And I was young and I thought I
had a lot to bring to it. So in a funny way it was, it was
a struggle because I was workingwith a couple of 1000 LB
gorillas and there there was just no way around it.
So I had to figure out how to assert myself and get what I
(43:15):
wanted on a big movie. And you know, Bruce was a very
experienced actor. He'd done Moonlighting, he'd
done the Die Hard movies. He was a big star.
He had a lot of opinions about everything.
I liked him a lot and I wanted him to be happy because he was
also a producer on the film and he was the star of this big
movie and we saw a lot of thingseye to eye.
(43:39):
But he, Bruce, was very tough ondirectors.
I think it's fair of me to say this because I've talked to many
other directors and Bruce and I talked about it during the
shoot. At one point I said to him, I
said, man, I, you know, you're so resistant to a lot of what
I'm suggesting and it's so hard to find the right way to do this
(44:00):
with you. Why are you giving me such a
hard time? And he, he told me a story about
working on it was an adaptation of a big Tom Wolf book.
It was a big budget movie that did well but was also kind of a
disaster. And he, you know, Bruce told me
that he had, he was so angry that Brian De Palma told him
exactly what to do and didn't give him any flexibility that he
(44:21):
said he vowed never to have thatkind of relationship with the
director again. Like, you're punishing me for
what another great director has done you.
And but, you know, so I, I had to figure out ways to work with
Bruce that would make him happy and that would make me happy.
And we did get there and we always got along.
(44:44):
But, you know, it was a real experience in terms of the tone
of that film. It was so hard because we wanted
to make a comedy, but it also had to be an action movie.
And we thought that audiences would be open to kind of
undercutting all the conventionsof an action movie in a comedy.
(45:08):
And you know, that movie was a big, it was a big flop when it
came out. It was hated by everybody, but
actually made money around the world.
I mean, it wasn't a flop like itdidn't.
It made its money back. It did well, but it was hated in
the press. We had a lot of mean spirited,
(45:28):
horrible reviews. The whole process of dealing
with that movie's reception whenit came out was was horrible.
And that was a good lesson to belearned by me as well, you know,
because that's what happens. But, you know, the history has
been a little kinder to it because we were also doing
(45:48):
things that were very different and that had a humor that was
more like what showed up maybe 10 years later in a lot of
films. And, and, you know, so my hats
are off to Bruce because he was able to, he actually walked that
line really well. I mean, he was a, he's a great
(46:08):
comic actor. You know, even though he's known
for action stuff, he actually has a great sense of humor and
knows how to play comedy really well.
It is heartbreaking when you arejust too early for the audience
to fully appreciate what you're crafting.
But re watching it now, the the way that in the midst of the
(46:31):
sequences, which watching that I'm like, I don't know how they
did this without, without any green, like I don't know how
this was even because that's oneof my like little fun tricks.
I like to watch things to try tofigure out how it was actually
made. And then there's just like a
little joke. It's just like a little just a
little spice on the top of it, which is so fun to watch now.
But I understand it at differenttimes.
(46:52):
It wasn't it wasn't received thesame way.
Yeah. You know, but I'm still proud of
that movie, that's for sure. And you know, Dan Waters, he the
guy who wrote Heather's, he did rewrites on a Steve D'souza
original script. And Dan's rewrites were very
funny and they were very odd. You know, the humor was very
(47:15):
odd. And we were pushing that.
We pushed it really hard. So, you know, and as you
mentioned in terms of stunts andthings like that, there were no,
there were no digital effects then.
I mean, well, I don't not know, I'm pretty sure, I'm not
positive, but that might have been the first movie where they
did wire removal where you they hung, you know, we had this
(47:38):
Davinci flying machine and it was hung from wires off of a
crane to fly. And up until that point, you
couldn't, you couldn't go in anddigitally remove the wires,
which is, you know, standard practice in a huge way.
Now, I mean, it has been forever, but I remember talking
(47:59):
to the John Knoll, who's a special effects guy at ILM.
And I said, so how are we going to do this?
And he said, well, you can hang it from a crane on wires and
we'll remove the wires. And I said I knew a fair amount
about special effects. He said, how are you?
How are you going to remove the wires?
And he said, we're going to, we're going to put each frame of
(48:20):
film into Photoshop in a high resolution digital scan.
And then we'll go in and we'll Photoshop out the wires in each
frame, you know, which is fine. I mean, but they didn't have any
computer programs to do it, you know?
And, and I said, wow, I said, are you that good at Photoshop?
And he said, yeah, I wrote the program.
(48:41):
It turns out he and his brother actually created Photoshop and
John and I had gone to film school together.
I said, what? No, you're that guy who was in
the in the animation department all the time.
I knew him in school. And I was like, you wrote
Photoshop and he goes, yeah, my brother.
And, and sure enough, I looked at the credits on the original
(49:02):
Photoshop and they invented it, you know, so you know, so there
were, there were a lot of thingsthat were being tried out for
the first time on that job, but the stunts were huge and they
were done old fashioned way. That's amazing.
We close every episode the same way.
What is one thing you wish you could go back until your younger
(49:23):
self? The the one thing I wish I could
tell my younger self is the guiding principle for what I do,
which is never go back and revise anything and never live
in regret. You don't.
You move forward, you know, you you can't move backwards and you
(49:47):
learn by your mistakes, but you don't obsess about them.
So, you know, I tell my younger self, you're not allowed to go
back and talk to your younger self.
Michael, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and
and being so generous with your time and stories and insight.
It was such a joy to talk to you.
(50:09):
Well, thank you, it was a lot offun.
Hi everyone, thanks for listening and being the absolute
best part of our creative community here at What's My
Frame? If you'd like to learn more
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame?
To stay in the know for upcomingevents, I'm your host, Laura
Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.
Hi everyone. Today on What's My Frame, I'm
joined by director Michael Lehman.
Michael studied at Columbia University and the USC School of
Cinema Television before directing his first feature,
Others in 1989. Michael shares how he joined the
iconic film along with favorite memories from past work.
Notable credits include Hudson Hawk, The Truth About Cats and
Dogs, The West Wing, Big Love, True Blood, and so many more.
(00:26):
Michael recently completed work as Producing director on Dexter
Original Sin and shares the special attention used to honor
the Dexter universe and fans. Michael clearly loves his work
and respects his fellow creatives.
This episode had many quotes I paused to jot down, but one of
my favorites was Our job is to play like we did when we were
kids. A simple reminder of the gift we
(00:47):
have as artists and to never lose that joy.
Now let's get to the conversation.
Hey Michael, welcome to What's my frame?
How are you doing? I'm great and happy to be here.
Oh thank you for making the timefor anyone who isn't familiar
with your prolific career. I've had greatest joy the last
like 2 weeks. I've been rewatching so much of
(01:09):
your work. But could you take a little back
story and your origin of creative influences mentors the
opportunities that helped craft your career?
I was one of those kids who, youknow, wanted to be a movie
director from an early age, but I also wanted to be an artist
and had a lot of visual art background.
(01:30):
So in college, I went to art school for a while but hated
that, and then studied philosophy and almost became a
serious academic but decided it wasn't the life for me.
And then I said, well, I'm goingto go work in the movies.
And I applied to film schools, and I got a job answering the
phones for Francis Coppola. And it's a long time ago.
So I work in the movie business for a bit with Francis doing
(01:54):
really interesting stuff at a very low level for production
assistant and then sort of management stuff until I finally
went to film school and then did, did the USC, you know, made
short films on this sort of thing.
And, and managed to, you know, make my way early in my career
and, and make movies, which I did for years and then
(02:16):
transitioned, started doing television because I liked being
on set and like working with actors that didn't want to spend
forever just developing things. And, and so then, yeah, you
know, I've, I've made a bunch ofmovies.
I've made a lot of television and a lot of good quality cable
stuff and streaming things. And that's where I am.
What was it about directing specifically that really sparked
(02:38):
your curiosity? In the beginning, it was a lot
of visual stuff. I mean, and I liked directors
who had, you know, strong visuals.
But, you know, I'm with the generation where, you know, the
heroes were Francis Coppola, Martin Scorsese, Stanley
Kubrick. I like those kind of films.
I've always drawn to comedy. To me, primarily comedy and
(03:02):
particularly dark comedy that was satirical, that pushed a lot
of buttons that that raised questions and that made dark
humor out of serious subjects. So that's what got me into it.
And the more I've done it, the more I've become really much
(03:24):
more focused on performance issues and just good
storytelling. I, I don't, I think it has some,
at a certain point I kind of thought, well, you can do great
shots, you can design really cool visual stuff and that
should be second nature. But working with actors is
always a process of discovery, and I really enjoyed that.
(03:45):
Having evolved from film to television and seen so many
iterations of the industry, how have you stayed flexible,
evolved your process, kept it fresh for yourself because you
have been doing it for a minute and have this beautiful resume,
but are still actively working and taking on new challenges?
(04:06):
You know, when I step onto a setin the morning, I'm immediately
delighted and happy. And, you know, it's just, it's,
it's kind of crazy, but I love the work.
I love the fact that what we do for a living is we show up
someplace. We have a whole lot of resources
at our disposal and our job is to play.
(04:27):
Our job is to play like we did when we were kids.
I get to do that every day at work.
So I don't, I don't really, I don't get tired of it.
I don't want to stop it. I don't get cynical about it.
I think there probably been times in my life when I've been
pretty cynical about it. But you know, at this point, I
like working with the people andI like the fact that we're
(04:48):
making stuff, that it's all makebelieve with a purpose.
Yeah. Do you have any favorite
collaborators that you've gottento work with a number of times?
Yeah, there are writers that I like to work with, that I've
worked with a number of times. That the guy Dan Waters, who
wrote Heather's, who is a geniusand very funny.
(05:09):
I I'm still close friends with him.
I've tried to do other things with him.
I did other things a long time ago with him.
A lot of people I went to film school with I share a lot with.
I don't necessarily do work withthem, but we're part of the
crowd still and that's many years.
I think I've finished film school 1985.
(05:29):
I guess that would be a while ago now, right?
So we're still in touch actors when I can, I work with the same
actors. It's it's hard.
It depends on availability, it depends on the roles, and it
depends on whether I'm principally involved in casting
or just advising on casting. It depends on the project.
But I recently had a chance to work with Christians later again
(05:53):
after many years of not working with them.
And that was really fun, you know, to go back to somebody I'd
worked with 35 years ago and be on set with them again.
So yeah, there are a lot of people I like to work with and
and stick with. Also crew members, directors of
photography, that sort of thing.Always try to get people I know.
(06:13):
Yeah. I I think that those are the
kind of stories that I love to hear because I think so often,
especially in the current iteration of the industry where
so much of it feels very long distance or a game of telephone,
it's so nice to be reminded of how many people are champion for
the talent that they enjoy working with and that they
respect and enjoy. Our name is being brought up in
(06:36):
rooms, so we have no idea about and we don't know where those
seeds that are being planted, when they will, when they will
sprout. But I think it's a real
positive. And in times like this, when
there's a disconnect, what is a creative challenge that you
would like to take on in the future?
I'd like to get back to doing more of that dark comedy that I
started with, that I liked. I mean, it's a creative
(06:56):
challenge that never goes away and it's an interest.
It's never gone away. It's very hard to get those
things made. It's and then if they get made,
it's really hard to keep them pure and they kind of need to be
pure or else they don't work. When joining a new project, how
do you prep and find your creative vantage point and then
also start working with your fellow film makers on that
(07:17):
project or fellow creatives? Well, if I'm starting a project
that is really launching from scratch, you know, if there's a
pilot script or a book that's being adapted or something like
that, I educate myself from the basics from the beginning as
much as I can. And I talked to the writer.
(07:38):
If I'm not developing it myself,I talked to the writer and I try
to get a real sense of what why they're doing what they're
doing, what's meaningful to themso that if I'm going to be
collaborating, I know what the playing field is.
I don't do like crazy research into character types or the
history unless it's really, really pertinent to the project.
(08:02):
But I do try to immerse myself in the world as much as
possible. And then I make sure I have
meetings and interactions with all the principal creative
people that are already involvedbefore I get there.
And that's can be just one person, like a writer or
showrunner or producer, or it can be a group that's already
(08:24):
together. If the if it's a show that are
has been up and running, I try to watch every episode they've
ever made in the show. That's tricky when you know the
Dexter. I think I did in the fifth or
sixth season, and I did not watch every episode before I
came in just to direct one. But I watched a lot of them.
(08:46):
You know, I'd seen a lot of the show.
So, you know, I try to educate myself as much as possible
because when you're directing, you want to know.
You'd want to know what everybody else knows.
You don't want them to tell you in the middle of a scene.
You know why we did this in thatepisode 4 years ago?
You know, so I, I educate myselfas well as I can and I get
(09:06):
myself into the, into the spiritof whatever the project is.
I love that I get into the spirit of the project.
What is your methodology for marking up your script and
envisioning your shots coming inbefore before day one?
I well, I used to just write on my scripts like crazy little
notes here and there. Nowadays I use scriptation.
(09:30):
There are a lot of programs, butscriptation is good because when
you get new drafts of scripts, your notes transfer over.
And starting a few years ago, I tried to go as much electronic
as possible. And I'm, it's really good
because then if I have my computer or my iPad or even my
phone, I have access to everything so stuff doesn't go
(09:51):
away. And if I have paper, I walk
around with piles of paper and Ilose it all.
So I love the fact that we can be paperless now.
So scriptation is a big part of my process.
And I take so on a television show where there's a series of
very structured meetings, you know, concept meeting, tone
(10:13):
meeting, prompt meetings, all this sort of stuff.
I use a different color writing for each meeting.
And that way when I review all my stuff as I go along, I can
see all this came up in that meeting or that meeting.
I'm pretty good with that. I make notes about character.
I make notes about references toany material that that's based
(10:35):
on. And for the actual breakdown of
shots, I sit with the script. I usually have a computer with a
reasonably large screen, and on one side, on the left, I have
the script, on the right I just have a word processing program.
And I read the script and I think, and I think, and I think,
and I start to write down shots,images, things connected to a
(11:00):
scene. And I've done this for so long
that it's pretty easy for me to break it down.
And it might be as simple as, OK, it's a dialogue scene.
I'm going to shoot a master. I'm going to, if I know the
location, I make notes about where the master is going to be
from, what kind of lenses, what kind of shots.
And then I break down the individual pieces of coverage
(11:21):
that I think I'm going to need. And I just write it out in a
list. And then that list includes not
just information about the shots, but also notes for
performance and just some kind of stupid notes like don't
forget to do this, you idiot, you know, that sort of thing.
And I do make that that list accessible to all the people who
(11:42):
need to see it on set. So they're sometimes pointing
something and going, what is this?
Well, that's for me. You don't, Don't worry about
that. You sound like a very similar
note taker to myself. I love I live for my color-coded
pens. That is that's that that keeps
me organized and it keeps it pretty.
That's that's what I'm going. I've never been that person
(12:03):
before, by the way. It was only when I got this
program that transferred the notes and I realized that if I
did that, I'd have a better ideaof where those ideas were coming
from. We talked about this before we
started recruiting, but you've also worked as an executive
producer on a number of your projects.
And I would love to hear, because the executive producer
(12:24):
roles and responsibilities varies, did you share a little
bit about your experiences and what your contributions have
been as an EP on your projects? Yeah.
So, you know, when you make a movie as the director, you are,
you're essentially the short runner.
You know, you you're the final arbitrator of most creative
decisions in the world of television and streaming.
(12:45):
That's not the case as a director.
So if I'm on as an executive producer, it means that I'm
doing my directing work, but I also have further
responsibilities, some of which are dependent on how much the
writer showrunner is willing to share or give to me.
And part of it has to do with what my relationship is with
(13:06):
that person. So there are a couple
showrunners I've worked with whowant me in the writers room.
They want me involved in everything I'm willing to get
involved in. And I'm, I'm really willing to
get involved in just about everything creatively to try to,
if, if not contribute to at least be aware of what's going
on. So I can be involved in the, in
(13:28):
the writers room. Although I, I look at my job
there as being helping them write things that are going to
be production friendly or that Ithink warning them when they
write scenes that I think would be very, very difficult to pull
off, that they're at least awareof what they're up against.
And then heavily involved in casting, which I think is
(13:51):
absolutely crucial. And once again, when I have a
really good collaborative relationship with the
showrunner, then I think that, you know, casting is really
shared by us. And I'd love to work with
showrunner writers who have a good sense of casting because
some of them are much better than others.
(14:11):
You know, I'll, if I'm not directing every episode, I will
very gently supervise the other directors who don't like to get
in their way. I don't like to be on their
sets. But I also make sure that they
understand what the history of everything is and who they need
to watch out for and how they need to, you know, how they need
(14:35):
to interact with the people thatcan be complicated and that sort
of thing. And I will look at their cuts.
And then if, if things work out well, I, I stay heavily involved
in post as much as possible, including, you know, going to
the sound mixes and all that sort of stuff to make sure
everything's right. As being an AP and seeing that
(14:58):
side of the world and working and that empowered you more so
as a director when you are just coming on as a guest director.
Yes and no. I mean because I directed movies
before I ever directed television.
I many, many years ago when I first went in and did a couple
(15:18):
of broadcast TV shows, I didn't really understand the limited
function of a director in old fashioned television.
They did not want you to be a full on director like you are
when you make a movie that they actually presented.
If you, if you went over, if youoverstepped, you know, they
wanted somebody who's going to give them the footage that they
(15:39):
needed so they could cut the show and have it the way they
wanted. And they wanted somebody who'd
be on set to deal with the actors.
Because a lot of people who wrote television then and now
don't like actors, you know, ButI mean, that's a fact, you know,
they, they, they think actors are necessary and they like what
(16:00):
actors do, but they don't like having to deal with the actors
because in their head, I've written this.
I want to see it exactly the wayI imagined it.
So. If I hear it in my head.
Hear it the way I heard it. Yeah, I I want that line read
exactly the way I So, yeah, whenI come in as a guest director
(16:22):
now, after all the years of experience doing this, I try to
make sure that the showrunner and I see it the same way.
And I ask a lot of questions andIoffer up a lot of this is how I
plan on doing it. Are you going to be good with
that? And I look at the work that's
been done by other directors andI try to figure out if there are
(16:45):
things that I think have been happening in the show that
aren't great. I'll tactfully say I think we
can improve this element. I don't like to say anything
negative about what's there. I just, you know, say I think I
can improve it. Or I think if we go in this
direction, it might be good. And that can relate to
performance. It can relate to shooting style,
all that sort of stuff. But when a showrunner tells me,
(17:09):
which they frequently do, you can do whatever you want as long
as you give me my close-ups, I think, OK, close-ups, big alarms
go off. Give me meaning.
They want me to provide them with something for them to use.
And they say my close-ups meaning that's all they care
about and they're going to use them no matter what.
(17:32):
And this is very old fashioned TV, right?
You know, talking heads. It's not necessarily wrong.
It's not necessarily bad. And it sometimes reflects the
desire that a writer has to makesure that they can see an
actor's face and their eyes and get a close up and, and hear
them say the lines exactly the way the writer conceived and
(17:54):
when they wrote them. And I, I actually respect that.
I mean, I used to not respect itso much.
I've learned that it just means that it's really important to
them, almost like watching a play.
They just want to see the actorsdo do what they wrote.
And they don't want shots that distract from that in their
mind. Never.
They don't want anything that that directors might think might
(18:16):
enhance what they've written. They just want to make sure that
if they need to, they can micromanage the material in post
production by cutting to close-ups and using close-ups.
Yeah. And, and if I happen to take a
job on a show like that, which Igenerally don't do, but if I do
and if I have a good relationship with the writer,
(18:37):
sometimes they're my friends. I just understand that I
shouldn't be wasting my time trying to do complicated
choreography because it's never going to end up in the show.
Yeah. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. And as you were, as you were
describing that, as you know, I I grew up and, and when I was in
school, it was always kind of told to U.S.
(19:00):
TV as a writer's medium, film asthe director's medium.
And I think one of the beautifulthings about TV and streaming
now is we have so many more filmdirectors that are directing TV
and it's a much more collaborative and community art.
Yeah, I, I tried to understand this and I realized something
that isn't really talked about very often, which is that cinema
(19:24):
was a visual art when it started.
There was no, there was no sound, you know, there was no
dialogue. So the tradition of cinema and
movie directors is one of visualstorytelling primarily.
Whereas television crew out of radio where there was no
pictures and, you know, writers wrote radio plays.
(19:46):
And a lot of those writers also came from theater, where, yes,
you can do very interesting visual staging.
But traditionally people didn't necessarily do that in the days
of radio, you know what I mean? So the people who grew up loving
television and wanting to work in television and wanting to be
the creative force in televisiontended to be writers, and they
(20:07):
were word oriented and they were.
And they were not necessarily visual.
And the people who made movies generally liked seeing things on
the big screen, and they understood that their job was to
be visual storytellers, so. This was fine for many years,
but once the production levels and expectations of audiences
(20:30):
raised way up, we're talking 30 years ago really now with the
rise of quality cable television, that sort of thing.
There was a lot of friction sometimes between writers and
directors over this, but there was also great collaboration.
When you could get a writer who was oriented from television and
serial storytelling and all those sorts of things.
(20:51):
If you could get them to understand that their work would
benefit from the visual possibilities that were
available to them in the medium as it was growing, then you
could get great collaboration. It's so obvious what you just
said, but I never really thoughtabout it of the root origin,
where it came from dictated so, so much of the the early history
(21:15):
of both. Yeah, yeah.
Wow. And nobody talks about it.
I don't know why it is obvious. Going back to your executive
producing, you worked on the original Dexter as a director
for several episodes, but then also came on as a director and
an EP for Original Sin. How did you all balance honoring
such a fan favorite that warranted bringing back a a new
(21:40):
iteration of the show, but also finding original Sins own voice
for a new audience as well? Yeah, it was a big, it was a big
challenge. I I loved the original Dexter.
I think Michael C Hall is an amazing actor and that they had
well, the all the actors, all the original actors were
fantastic and it was a show I really enjoyed doing it.
(22:02):
I I was busy on other stuff during the first seasons of
Dexter and I never reached out to them and they never reached
out to me. But even though I knew a bunch
of people involved and finally one day I I can't remember if I
just got a call or if I called them, but I was signed on to do
these episodes and and I really,really had a great time with the
(22:23):
cast. So I loved the show and I knew
it well. When Original Sin was being put
together, a production designer named Eric Weiler, who might
work with on other things, told me that they were doing the
show. And he and I were both friends
with the line producer, Robert Lewis, who was more than just
(22:44):
the line producer. He'd done, I think, every
episode of the original Dexter. And he's somebody I've worked
with a lot. And I just talked to Robert and
I said, well, if you're, if you're at a point where you're
looking for directors, please keep me in mind.
And they did. And I took a meeting with them
and figured out you, you know, got the lay of the land of what
(23:05):
they were trying to do. So it just seemed like a great
challenge. And I, I loved the people
involved whom I'd known. And there were a few people that
were principals. Clyde Phillips, who ran the
show, was somebody I'd never worked with because he was no
longer involved in the original Dexter by the time I got there.
But he had done the earlier episodes.
(23:26):
And he's really good. And he's a great writer.
He's very experienced. So, you know, the biggest
challenge was casting people to play the younger versions of
these great parts that had existed for eight seasons, you
know, on the original show. And that was that was kind of
that was the toughest thing to figure out.
(23:47):
I think we did a really good jobbecause we have a great cast and
and we knew that the fans would kill us if we didn't make good
decisions there. I mean, the Dexter fans are so
obsessive. They they know everything.
They know every detail. They really, really love the
show. And so.
Shy about telling you if you if you misstepped.
(24:08):
Oh yeah, There's a guy named Scott Reynolds who is an
executive producer on He was on the writing staff from the very
beginning, on the first Dexter series all the way through the
end. And he's one of the executive
producers on Original Sin. And Scott is an amazing person
and he's a true lover of movies and he knows everything about
(24:30):
Dexter. And he sort of protected the
history. He was so good about it.
He and he would sometimes say, we have to do it this way
because everybody, every fan whowatches this show is going to
know XY and Z and we cannot violate that.
He was, he was really, he was great to work with, but he was
(24:52):
also really helpful in protecting that, as was Clyde,
because Clyde really knew the show.
I would love to talk a little bit more about casting because
you would you'd mentioned you had a a strong voice in casting
decisions in the lists and that process.
And I think often, especially due to the disconnect now, we as
(25:13):
actors don't really know where our name is being brought up,
discussed, how it's being discussed, what is weighing that
scale one way or another in decisions about actors.
So if you wouldn't mind pulling back the curtain a little bit on
those kind of casting conversations for a show.
What I found, which is interesting, is that when I work
(25:33):
with experienced showrunner types and who have been around
doing television and cable and that sort of thing, they
actually have a really good knowledge of the actors that are
out there. Because if they were doing 26
episodes back in those days, they were seeing the work of a
(25:54):
lot of working actors, you know,and they have generally a lot of
relationships that are good. And so I, I find that to be a
positive thing. And it also really helps the
acting community because they don't have to prove who they are
each time out. And when they go in on
auditions, you know, you, I would see when I'd work with
(26:16):
them with showrunners who had a lot of experience, the actors
would come in and greet them andgo, do you Remember Me?
I was on this and that. And, and so, and, you know, I, I
had pretty good. I've been doing this so long
that I've got a lot of awarenessof at least the older actress
for sure. But then when you're casting
young people, you go to the casting director and you go who
(26:36):
you know, who do you have who's 17 years old or 16 years old or
10 years old or whatever. So, you know, you rely on the
relationships that people have and you rely on the, the, the
knowledge base that they have. But for me, I love to watch
auditions and I, I personally love to watch auditions in
person. I hate self tapes.
(26:57):
I hate video auditions of all kinds.
I know we're stuck with it. It's not going to go away, but I
like to be in a room with an actor.
It it makes a huge difference. And you know, the thing with
auditions is I rely on casting directors to bring people in.
So if there's somebody in particular that I know that I've
(27:19):
worked with and I think it wouldbe great for a role, I will say,
can you check on the availability of so and so?
You know, I do that for sure. But generally speaking, the
casting directors have a list. They, they say these are the
people that we'd like you to seeand they might have a lot of
them. And generally there's not much
(27:40):
discussion beforehand with the showrunners and all that.
We just show up for a session. But I, I, I'd like to see actors
I've worked with before, and I'dlike to see people that whose
work I know but I've never worked with.
But I also like to see people that I've never heard of and
never seen come into a room. The, the process is, for me,
(28:06):
fairly simple. I'd like the actor to come in
with what they've got prepared and I'll watch that and then I
want to give them an adjustment.This is why I like to do it in
the room, because the most important thing in casting is
actually understanding how what kind of adjustments actors are
(28:26):
willing and able to make. Because if even if an actor
comes in and nails it and it's perfect and it's exactly what I
want and I know it's exactly what I want, I will then give
them. I'll say I'm going to give you
some really bad direction, but please do your best with it and
see what happens when I take them in a completely different
direction. Because then you know that, you
(28:48):
know, it's a fluid process. Things change, things come, you
discover and you find out another actor does something
interesting that changes the course of things, but it's
really good. How does the how do the other
actors in the scene work with them?
That sort of thing or some idea comes up or we get a note from
somebody or whatever it is. So, you know, the casting
(29:10):
process is really important. If you if you've cast well and
you have good actors and they'reright for the parts, then things
go really well on set. Makes that a much smoother,
better place, more productive. Yes, you have you found in the
last five ish years guest stars and above you're able to have
those producer sessions and be in the room with the actors or
(29:33):
is even guest stars a lot of times still on tape?
Important callbacks on big roles, on guest starring roles
or principal roles are done in the room still.
I just say they have to be. And every once in a while we'll
be in a situation where we have to cast somebody and we only
have tape on them. Well, you also get situations
(29:55):
where it's offer only you know which, which is understandable
from an actor's point of view. They don't want to have to come
in an audition, but when it's offer only you, you have to
calculate. All right, well, what are what
are they likely to do and how isit and what are we getting into?
And have you worked with them before?
And do, you know, people have worked with them and all that
sort of stuff, But it's, I do everything I can to get actors
(30:23):
in the room with me just so I know exactly what we're dealing
with and so that I can also showthe actors that we're like
supportive. You know, I, I try to be really
supportive of actors. I don't want them to be
intimidated. I want them to know that they're
a big part of the creative process and that they'll be
respected. For those roles that are just on
(30:46):
tape, any advice or perspective on things that positively stand
out to you when watching selectson those smaller roles?
That's a good question. I think that a decisive approach
to the character is something you should have because it's we
can see it, you know, and I don't get this that often on
(31:10):
tapes, but if somebody is able to give two different
approaches, one take this way, another take that way, I'm not
sure every show runner, every person involved in casting feels
that way. I like to see that I go, oh,
good. You know, we have room there.
Yeah, that that's kind of it, you know, trying to get, if
(31:30):
you're doing a self tape, tryingto get somebody good to read
with you. That does make.
It it makes a difference and youknow and you can really tell.
And try to get them in the room with you.
I, I feel like it, it's, it's, it just adds another link in the
the telephone line that's unnecessary.
If you can be in the room and looking in someone's eyes, it
(31:52):
it. Makes such a difference.
Yeah, yeah. Have them in the room.
Have them standing right next tothe camera.
Yeah. So that your eye line goes into
the camera, you know, not not directly into the lens, but, you
know, so that we have a good, yeah, yeah.
But that we have a good eye lineto look at because that helps.
I heard you share in a past interview how simple direction
(32:14):
is often most effective. Could you elaborate a little bit
on that for our audience? Yeah, it it took me a long time
to learn this and I'm still sometimes lapsed into, as you
can tell, I talk a lot. But, but in dealing with actors,
I'd rather if I can say 3 words and convey something that gives
(32:36):
them the opportunity to shift their performance in the
direction of what I think will be better, that's a really good
thing. So I try not to engage in
intellectual discussions or complicated abstract things.
Those tend to be evasive. When an actor wants to talk like
that or when a director wants totalk like that, you're usually
(32:57):
avoiding, you know, it's avoidant behavior.
It's so, you know, simple words that are either motivations or
thoughts or things that can be translated into the, into
action, you know, verb kind of things, all the standard stuff
that are not negative, that are positive, but simple.
(33:20):
They help an actor maintain their performance without
feeling like they're trying to give you something super precise
exactly the way you want it. Because if you, if you task an
actor with that, chances are they're never going to give a
right authentic performance. You know, they can't.
They're, they're acting by numbers then.
(33:41):
And, and it doesn't work. And I have writers sometimes on
sets and in television and streaming stuff where the
writers are next to me going no,no, no, no, no.
They didn't say the line the wayI wanted them to.
And I go, just take it easy, youknow, and I try to find a way to
get the actor moving in the direction.
It'll probably give that writer something closer to what they
(34:02):
had in their head. But there will be an actual
expression of who the actor is and what they are.
I mean, The thing is that actorsare artists.
They're they're, they are going to bring something surprising,
something great, something that you couldn't even imagine and
breakdown. So keeping it simple gives them
(34:25):
the chance to exercise their artbetter.
Yeah, Yeah. Well, it's very clear that
you're an advocate for actors, both from the the audition
process to set. How do you like to build trust
and mutual respect with your actors?
Well, I'd like to be friendly tothem and to, and for them to
understand that, that everythingelse on the set matters less
(34:48):
than what they do. You know, because I got my head
filled with all this other stuff, you know, logistical
stuff, technical stuff, scheduling, that sort of thing.
I I really don't want the actorsto have to worry about that
stuff, but in terms of interacting with actors, I I
found I just have to be who I amand talk to them the way that I
(35:10):
am, which is a little ridiculous.
I tend to make really bad jokes and you know, I try to keep it
light. I wanted to be a friendly
collaboration. One thing I hate is when I show
up on set and I haven't met the actor at all before then.
This happens sometimes with day players who've been cast from
tape. So unless I'm absolutely crazy
(35:32):
overwhelmed, the first thing I do is come up and go, Oh my God,
I loved your audition. I'm so happy you're here.
You know, I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to talk before, but
if you have any questions, if you're concerned about anything,
just, you know, feel free to talk.
I like the actors to know that they can come at me with the
craziest stuff that they want. It doesn't matter.
(35:55):
We'll find a way to accommodate and.
As an actor, that's, that's justsuch a gift that like made my
day. Just hearing that on behalf of
other actors because positivity about our work and, and
reassurance, I think is something that has diminished a
(36:18):
lot in the last several years. And we don't get to hear those
reassurances of we like what you're doing.
Sometimes it feels like it's, you know, it's a, it's a line on
the call sheet and that's what we were filling.
And it's just, it's so the valuethat you're putting in is, is
just immeasurable and it makes such a difference.
(36:38):
Well, the, the interesting thingis, is that actors who have been
cast in a small tape layer part,you know, like a waiter, that
sort of thing, you know, or cop #3 you know, these, these sorts
of roles, you know, it's great if you're a working actor and
that's what you get. You should be happy.
You're, you know, you're going to get your benefits, you're
(36:59):
going to get some work, you're going to get on screen, all that
sort of stuff. But I try to politely also
explain the scene isn't really about all that great stuff you
want to bring to the role. You have to figure out how to
bring that great stuff in a way that looks like you brought
nothing because that's what yourjob is.
(37:21):
And so even for those roles, I, I like to try to find a way for
the accurate feel fulfilled, even though you know, the, the
role might be, you know, can I bring you your check, you know,
and. Then bathrooms.
On the hall. Just move it.
Move it along. Yeah, you're not going to win
(37:42):
the Emmy for this one, but but you, you have a job that is
tricky, you know? And you're also you're on set,
so let's find the joy. I would love to talk a little
bit about some of your early film projects.
Ethers was one of your very early projects.
How did it come to you? Did you realize at the time that
(38:05):
it was something so special thatwould evolve into, I mean, my
gosh, it has this whole other life as a probably musical.
I mean, it's just there's such alifespan that this project has
taken on in these characters andtheir voices.
I, I was very lucky, I mean honestly, because I was young
wannabe filmmaker and I had a friend named Larry Karazewski
(38:28):
who's a great writer and he's, he's written all sorts of
fantastic stuff with his partnerScott Alexander.
Larry and I went to film school together and he was high school
friends with Daniel Waters who wrote Heather's.
And I met Dan through Larry and I was told that Dan was writing
this amazing script called Heather's.
(38:50):
And Larry called me and said Danis looking for an agent to
represent him on this script. And Larry and his running
partner, Scott, had an agent, but their agent was not
interested in Dan's work. And Larry said, can you show it
to your agent? And I just was out of film
school and I had a really good agent who was good because she
(39:11):
had great taste and was very discerning.
Her name is Bobby Thompson. And so I said, yeah, OK, I, I'd
met Dan a couple of times. I was like, OK, let me read the
script. And it was 200 pages.
It was amazing. I didn't even completely get it
when I read it, but I said there's really amazingly funny
stuff in here. And I talked to Dan and I took
(39:36):
it to to my agent and she flipped for it.
So what happened was I was just helping Dan get an agent.
That was it. I wasn't supposed to be attached
to the project, but she signed him.
So I was a client of hers and sowas Dan.
And when she and she loved the script and a lot of people love
the script, but it was a tough one to make.
(39:58):
And I had a deal set up at New World Pictures and the the guy
who ran it was very savvy and very funny.
And when, when Bobby couldn't get this thing set up with at a
major studio with the big time director, I said why don't you
see if Dan wants to take it to? New World, where I am and where
a producer named Denise Denovi, who was really good, who also
(40:21):
had a deal there, said maybe we can do that.
So we took it to New World and ended up getting it made there.
So I, I lucked out because that was an, that was an
extraordinary script. And Dan and Denise and I, I
think we all saw it the same way.
(40:42):
And we were young and we'd nevermade a movie before, and we
really, really cared about that.And did we think it was special?
Yes. We we knew it was special
because the script was so good. Do.
You have any favorite memories from from set?
That was a really, really good group of people.
That was a happy set and it was a hard working set.
(41:04):
And so, you know, I've I've a lot of favorite memories working
with Winona because she was truly special.
You know, she was 16 years old and she was incredibly smart and
she was very funny and she completely got what the script
was. So she was a big cheerleader for
(41:26):
everybody every day on set and and that was good.
And Christian was amazing. Hudson Hawk, What was
collaborating with Bruce Willis like?
And I also, y'all were dancing between raindrops with the
stunts and the comedy on that one was just so, so good.
And also some of the stunts you all were able to do back then
(41:48):
without CGI, without trickery and magic.
Yeah. I would just love to hear what
that experience was like. Well, that was a complicated and
difficult experience after afterhaving done two small movies
that, you know, with, with a small group on a low budget.
(42:08):
Bruce was at the top of the world at that point.
You know, our first day of shooting for Hudson Hawk was the
Monday after the 4th of July weekend there with that Die Hard
two opened up and it had I thinkDie Hard 2 must have had one of
(42:28):
the biggest opening weekends of any movie ever.
So Joel Silver, the producer, and Bruce Willis, the star, were
riding as high as you can ride in Hollywood.
And Monday I show up, I'm directing.
First big movie I've ever done. And these guys think that they
are, you know, indestructible and that they're that they know
(42:53):
everything. And I was young and I thought I
had a lot to bring to it. So in a funny way it was, it was
a struggle because I was workingwith a couple of 1000 LB
gorillas and there there was just no way around it.
So I had to figure out how to assert myself and get what I
(43:15):
wanted on a big movie. And you know, Bruce was a very
experienced actor. He'd done Moonlighting, he'd
done the Die Hard movies. He was a big star.
He had a lot of opinions about everything.
I liked him a lot and I wanted him to be happy because he was
also a producer on the film and he was the star of this big
movie and we saw a lot of thingseye to eye.
(43:39):
But he, Bruce, was very tough ondirectors.
I think it's fair of me to say this because I've talked to many
other directors and Bruce and I talked about it during the
shoot. At one point I said to him, I
said, man, I, you know, you're so resistant to a lot of what
I'm suggesting and it's so hard to find the right way to do this
(44:00):
with you. Why are you giving me such a
hard time? And he, he told me a story about
working on it was an adaptation of a big Tom Wolf book.
It was a big budget movie that did well but was also kind of a
disaster. And he, you know, Bruce told me
that he had, he was so angry that Brian De Palma told him
exactly what to do and didn't give him any flexibility that he
(44:21):
said he vowed never to have thatkind of relationship with the
director again. Like, you're punishing me for
what another great director has done you.
And but, you know, so I, I had to figure out ways to work with
Bruce that would make him happy and that would make me happy.
And we did get there and we always got along.
(44:44):
But, you know, it was a real experience in terms of the tone
of that film. It was so hard because we wanted
to make a comedy, but it also had to be an action movie.
And we thought that audiences would be open to kind of
undercutting all the conventionsof an action movie in a comedy.
(45:08):
And you know, that movie was a big, it was a big flop when it
came out. It was hated by everybody, but
actually made money around the world.
I mean, it wasn't a flop like itdidn't.
It made its money back. It did well, but it was hated in
the press. We had a lot of mean spirited,
(45:28):
horrible reviews. The whole process of dealing
with that movie's reception whenit came out was was horrible.
And that was a good lesson to belearned by me as well, you know,
because that's what happens. But, you know, the history has
been a little kinder to it because we were also doing
(45:48):
things that were very different and that had a humor that was
more like what showed up maybe 10 years later in a lot of
films. And, and, you know, so my hats
are off to Bruce because he was able to, he actually walked that
line really well. I mean, he was a, he's a great
(46:08):
comic actor. You know, even though he's known
for action stuff, he actually has a great sense of humor and
knows how to play comedy really well.
It is heartbreaking when you arejust too early for the audience
to fully appreciate what you're crafting.
But re watching it now, the the way that in the midst of the
(46:31):
sequences, which watching that I'm like, I don't know how they
did this without, without any green, like I don't know how
this was even because that's oneof my like little fun tricks.
I like to watch things to try tofigure out how it was actually
made. And then there's just like a
little joke. It's just like a little just a
little spice on the top of it, which is so fun to watch now.
But I understand it at differenttimes.
(46:52):
It wasn't it wasn't received thesame way.
Yeah. You know, but I'm still proud of
that movie, that's for sure. And you know, Dan Waters, he the
guy who wrote Heather's, he did rewrites on a Steve D'souza
original script. And Dan's rewrites were very
funny and they were very odd. You know, the humor was very
(47:15):
odd. And we were pushing that.
We pushed it really hard. So, you know, and as you
mentioned in terms of stunts andthings like that, there were no,
there were no digital effects then.
I mean, well, I don't not know, I'm pretty sure, I'm not
positive, but that might have been the first movie where they
did wire removal where you they hung, you know, we had this
(47:38):
Davinci flying machine and it was hung from wires off of a
crane to fly. And up until that point, you
couldn't, you couldn't go in anddigitally remove the wires,
which is, you know, standard practice in a huge way.
Now, I mean, it has been forever, but I remember talking
(47:59):
to the John Knoll, who's a special effects guy at ILM.
And I said, so how are we going to do this?
And he said, well, you can hang it from a crane on wires and
we'll remove the wires. And I said I knew a fair amount
about special effects. He said, how are you?
How are you going to remove the wires?
And he said, we're going to, we're going to put each frame of
(48:20):
film into Photoshop in a high resolution digital scan.
And then we'll go in and we'll Photoshop out the wires in each
frame, you know, which is fine. I mean, but they didn't have any
computer programs to do it, you know?
And, and I said, wow, I said, are you that good at Photoshop?
And he said, yeah, I wrote the program.
(48:41):
It turns out he and his brother actually created Photoshop and
John and I had gone to film school together.
I said, what? No, you're that guy who was in
the in the animation department all the time.
I knew him in school. And I was like, you wrote
Photoshop and he goes, yeah, my brother.
And, and sure enough, I looked at the credits on the original
(49:02):
Photoshop and they invented it, you know, so you know, so there
were, there were a lot of thingsthat were being tried out for
the first time on that job, but the stunts were huge and they
were done old fashioned way. That's amazing.
We close every episode the same way.
What is one thing you wish you could go back until your younger
(49:23):
self? The the one thing I wish I could
tell my younger self is the guiding principle for what I do,
which is never go back and revise anything and never live
in regret. You don't.
You move forward, you know, you you can't move backwards and you
(49:47):
learn by your mistakes, but you don't obsess about them.
So, you know, I tell my younger self, you're not allowed to go
back and talk to your younger self.
Michael, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and
and being so generous with your time and stories and insight.
It was such a joy to talk to you.
(50:09):
Well, thank you, it was a lot offun.
Hi everyone, thanks for listening and being the absolute
best part of our creative community here at What's My
Frame? If you'd like to learn more
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame?
To stay in the know for upcomingevents, I'm your host, Laura
Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.
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