178. Kat Likkel & John Hoberg // Writing Partners & Co-Executive Producers

Today on a very special episode of What's My Frame I'm joined by Kat Likkel and John Hoberg. Kat & John have been professional screenwriters for over 25 years. With credits ranging from MY NAME IS EARL to ELEMENTAL, DOWNWARD DOG to the medieval musical comedy GALAVANT. John and Kat's creativity and partnership is truly inspiring.

Today we chat about creative process and some of their upcoming projects including a fairytale musical series at Disney+ with Dan Fogelman producing and Kat's powerful first novel. John takes us into the writer's room on PARADISE; we laugh about the voices and influences that shape us as creatives and so much more. Now let's get to the conversation!

Full Bio:

Married writing team Kat Likkel and John Hoberg have been professional screenwriters for over 25 years. They’ve written half hours, features, dramas, and are currently in development on a stage musical with the Michael Cassel group. In addition to that, Kat and John recently set up a fairytale musical series at Disney+ with Dan Fogelman producing and music & lyrics by Alen Menken and Glenn Slater. Additionally, over the past few years, John has been serving as EP/Co-Showrunner on Hulu’s Emmy nominated hit drama series “Paradise,” and Kat has recently finished her first novel which is out to publishers. Before that they spent nearly 3 years working at Pixar writing the Academy Award nominated movie “Elemental,” and have a long list of television credits including shows like “My Name is Earl,” “black-ish” and the medieval musical comedy “Galavant” as well as cult hits like “Better off Ted” and “Downward Dog” -- the first network half hour to premiere at the Sundance Film Festival. They split time between Pasadena, and Solvang, CA where they have 6 goats... let’s just say their pandemic got weird.

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Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Hi everyone. Today on a very special episode
of What's My Frame? I'm joined by Kat Lickle and
John Hoburg. Kat and John have been
professional screenwriters for over 25 years, with credits
ranging from My Name is Earl to Elemental Downward Dog to the
medieval musical comedy Gallivant.
John and Kat's creativity and partnership is truly inspiring.

(00:23):
Today we chat about creative process and some of their
upcoming projects, including a fairy tale musical series at
Disney Plus with Dan Fogelman producing and Kat's powerful
first novel. John takes us into the writers
room of paradise. We laugh about the voices and
influences that shape us as creatives and so much more.
Now let's get to the conversation.

(00:46):
Hello John and Kat, welcome to What's my frame?
How y'all doing? We're doing good, yeah.
We like to start every episode kind of the same way with your
creative origin story, the pivotal mentors and
opportunities and the things that you really fell in love
with the business and keep you in love with the business.
So if you don't mind sharing your individual creative stories
and then we'll dive into your writing partnership and creative

(01:09):
outlets. I came out to LA in the late
80s, early 90s, basically just ayear, like a year out of high
school and decided that I would,I decided I wanted to be an
actor. And so I, that's what I kind of
came out here to try to do and realize pretty quickly that I, I

(01:35):
just sucked as an actor. It was terrible.
It was, it's like even I could tell like how bad I was and but
it's like I, I had gone to acting school and everything.
Nobody at acting school ever told me how bad I was.
But to make this short, it's like after a few auditions, I
really realized not only was I not good, I didn't like it.

(01:59):
I really didn't like going. It was, you know, in college,
it's a lot of camaraderie. But when you get out into the
business, it, it was just brutal.
And so I had to take a little time and figure out like, wow, I
left everything behind in, you know, in the Midwest to come out
here. What would, you know, what if I
wasn't going to do the thing that I thought I loved, what was

(02:21):
I going to do? And so I ended up getting a job.
This was at a pretty hot point in the AIDS crisis and my dad is
a social worker, my mom was a nurse.
And so I was like, you know what, maybe that's going to be a
track for me. And I got a job at ACE Project
LA and in the legal department. And one of the things, the most

(02:48):
important thing I did there was help out with deathbed wills.
And because, you know, so many young people dying, they, you
know, and it because gay marriage was not yet legal.
There was a big issue with that.And so I and the lawyer would go
out to people, to hospices, to bedsides and do these deathbed

(03:15):
wills. And there was at that time,
parents were really not as a general rule, but more than you
would want them to, contesting their son or daughter's legality
of the relationship. And they would try to like take
all the money or take all the whatever and just deny who their

(03:38):
kids were. And, and one way they would do
that is if there was a will, they would try to contest it,
saying that my son or my daughter was not in their right
mind when they did the will. So my job with the lawyer was to
hold our client's hand and ask multiple questions as we were,

(03:59):
you know, writing up the will and doing this just to check on
people's, were they still cogent?
So I might say to somebody who Iknew had no pets, like, have you
thought about what you're going to do with your dog?
And if they said, Oh, yeah, please put make sure Fluffy goes
to a good home, I knew that we had a problem.

(04:21):
But if they were like, are you crazy?
I don't have a dog. You're like, I can testify to
this. And so that was my job.
And I was also keeping people comfortable, talking
conversationally. And people would open up and
unburden to me other paths they wish they took in their life,

(04:44):
other things they wish they did,chances they wish they had
taken. And it really got me thinking
about me. What is it that I really wanted
to do in my life? What chance have I never taken?
And after a lot of sort of soul searching and thought about it,
I was like, I, the thing I had always wanted to do as a kid was

(05:07):
right. I mean, that would be everything
I did. I would write little stories, I
would put on little plays, like all of this stuff.
And I had, you know, I'd taken some college courses and things
like that, but I didn't really have the, I guess the courage to
pursue it. And, and I decided that, you

(05:27):
know, faced with all these people looking at their, at
their own ends, that I didn't want to be somebody who at the
end of my life was saying, boy, I wish I'd done this.
And I was like, you know what, I'm going to give it a shot.
And literally like 3 days later,before I'd even taken any
actions, a friend of mine who was an animator at Disney

(05:48):
Studios called me up. And he was like, hey, what are
you doing? And I said, well, you know, I
just quit AIDS project. I'm going to take some time off.
And he went, good. I have a writing job for you.
And it was literally, and it was, it was for a little
animated series that never endedup getting made, but that ended

(06:08):
up being the intro to my career.And I sort of felt like it was,
you know, the universe telling me I had made the right
decision. So.
I like your advice to young writers is have someone call you
and offer a job. Yeah, that's a very good story.
Yeah, not to the universe, the universal reign.
Yeah, just. Ask these things.
No, but I think it's about positioning yourself talking

(06:31):
about what it is you want to do.Let people know what you want to
do. Because if I hadn't talked to my
friend Tim about writing, he never would have called me up
and said, hey, I got a writing job for you.
This is what you should do. I, you know, I, I was explicit
to people about it. And that's something, if there's
something you really want, let people know.

(06:53):
You never know who's going to who's going to hear it.
You know and can help you along your way.
I'm such a big believer in you share your creativity, you share
your goals because you don't know the reach of your
community. Because I think with the rise of
social media and just everyone being a critic, we're so
precious with our our dreams andwe we protect them and keep them

(07:17):
very internalized. And I don't think there's any
benefit to that. It can't hurt granite, but if
there's no, there's no benefit to it.
When you started writing, did itfeel like it loved you back?
Unlike acting, did it feel more comfortable and like natural?
It did. It did.
It's like I felt like all the things that I couldn't express
on stage, I could suddenly I could express it on paper.

(07:39):
And but I had always been writing little stories and stuff
all my life, but I thought I waswriting my own little plays that
I was going to perform. So other people now perform my
plays. There you go, John.
What about for you? You know, it's funny, I don't
think if you'd asked me like even in college could did people
write television? I don't think I would have

(08:00):
crossed my mind. I remember I got out of college,
I was like a psychology major and a creative writing minor and
I had no idea what to do with myself and all my friends.
I went to school in upstate New York.
Everybody went down to New York City, half the people I knew.
So I just moved to Manhattan andjust somehow got a job working
as a like a, an assistant in a literary agency for book

(08:22):
publishing. And my job was just to read just
piles of manuscripts that were sent in.
And it was, it's called the slush pile.
And it's like anyone who wants to publish a book, they just
send it in. And so my job is I had one of
those giant cloth bags and I would fill it up every night and
read on the subway and have to go through these things.
And it, and I found out I actually have a kind of an eye

(08:43):
for a story. A couple things I pulled out my
boss liked and she's like, OK, well, you know, we'll give you,
you know, you she sold, I think two of them.
And so she started to be like, OK, you, you kind of have a
knack for that. But I didn't like the business.
And it it was, you know, it's a it's a very filled with
extremely smart people who read everything.
And I was going to these book publishing parties and I hadn't

(09:04):
read anything like literally, I had no interest in reading or
writing as far as I know. And I I was bullshitting
constantly. Like I love that book.
And I'd be like, the Internet wasn't really this was 1990.
You can get away with more. Yeah, you get away with a lot of
bullshit, but you also couldn't,like, run to the bathroom and
look up, you know, Herman Melville's novels and just sort
of be able to say something quickly.

(09:26):
But anyway, so one night during the slush pile read, one thing
that was in there was this book called Conversations with My
Agent, written by a guy named Rob Long, who had just finished
running the show. Cheers.
And he had, for some reason, he published this book in England
1st. And then they had submitted it
to us. And I picked it up and I started

(09:46):
reading and it's like I didn't stop until I was done.
I was up until like 2 in the morning and just read it
straight through. And I was like, that's what I
want to do for a living. Is this it?
It's sort of combined stuff thatI liked in book publishing,
which is like storytelling, but it, it was humor.
The guy, Rob, came in to meet with my boss and, you know, I

(10:06):
had 10 minutes to talk to him when I was in the front, you
know, at the desk and, and he was dressed like me, you know,
he was, he was younger and and he, he was like, yeah, well,
here's what you got to do. You got to write a couple spec
scripts and, you know, you know,and then you send them out.
And he kind of gave me the bare bones of what you do.
And then just very luckily, not even 3 weeks later and I was
like, OK, I'm going to find a friend and we're going to write

(10:27):
some scripts. And so I, I found a friend of
mine who wanted to do it. And then three weeks later,
these two women, Cindy Shupack and then Ellen Sandler came to
New York City and Cindy Shupak has become pretty well known.
She wrote on Sex and the City and she's an incredible director
and written features. And they were writing on Coach
that that sitcom. And they were, they had just

(10:49):
signed an overall deal with Universal and they were
interviewing people about book publishing because they were
going to write a pilot about a woman who gets a divorce as an
empty nester and and starts a literary agency in her apartment
because she doesn't know what else to do.
It was really good script. I found out later.
But so they were just interviewing anybody.
And my boss was like, I have 0 interest in talking to

(11:11):
television people. Like she just did not share my
enthusiasm. And I was like, I'll meet with
you guys if you want. And they're like, yeah, we'd
love to hear every level. And so I met with him and we
talked for probably 2 hours and I just really dug into like what
is the job? And then this is where they sort
of serendipity but also mentorship and everything comes
in because they were like send us your scripts when you're done

(11:33):
and we'll let you know if we think they're any good.
And if we do, you know, we can talk further.
And so then they went back to LAand then we, my friend and I
finished our scripts like 2 weeks later.
I literally quit my job assumingthat they were going to love my
scripts. Moved into my parents basement
in Columbus, OH waiting for themto call.
I didn't realize at the time a professional writer can take 8

(11:55):
weeks to get back to you on a script because they're so busy.
They've got piles of scripts. And so I just kind of quietly
waited in my parents basement for like this big call to come.
And finally at one point I was like, I can't wait anymore, I'm
just going to go out there. And I didn't tell them any of
this ever. I don't even think they know
this might be the first thing they that I was sitting in the
parents basement waiting for them to call me.

(12:17):
And at some point, so I started making plans to go out and visit
with my friend, even for like, Ithink we're going to go for five
days. You weren't going to call, you
were just going to go. Just to visit and knock on the
door of showbiz and be like, hey, do you guys, are you
interested? I don't know what the plan was.
There was no, there weren't a lot of books to read at the time
about like, how do you do this? So I don't know.

(12:41):
It sounds insane now that I'm saying it, but yeah.
And so Ellen ended up calling. It was like a day or two before
I was headed out there. And I think I emailed and said
I'm going to be coming out. And I think that probably Little
Fire where she's like, I'll readthe script finally.
And she's like, look, I'll be honest, I the scripts are funny.
Like the jokes are really good. She's like, the structure is
terrible, the story is bad. But she's like, luckily you can

(13:02):
learn story and you can't learn.Bunny.
And so we went out there and, and my friend and I were like,
look, if we don't get an agent in five days, I guess it wasn't
meant to be, you know, like we were that naive and stupid.
And we went out there and we spent our days like dropping
scripts off at all the agencies.And then Cindy and Ellen brought
me in and, and, you know, like we, I got to watch a coach

(13:25):
episode tape. And it reinforced like, this is
what I want to do. I'm in the audience watching the
writers gather, punch up jokes on the fly and do all that
stuff. And as we're leaving, we hadn't
had any bites. And my, my, like, writing
partner at the time, who I don'tthink really wanted to do this,
was like, oh, guess, I guess it wasn't meant to be.
And then on the way to the airport, I think I checked my

(13:46):
answering machine because that'swhat you used to have to do.
And an agent at Innovative Artists wanted to meet, was
going to be in New York City like the following week and said
that she was interested in representing us.
And so that's kind of how it came in.
And then the other stroke of luck convinced my friend, like,
let's move out there. We've got an agent, you know,
and, and we met this woman and she's like, yeah, what I need is

(14:07):
one more script, but I want it fast.
And so I moved out immediately because I was my parents were
thrilled to see me get leave thebasement.
I think they saw that was going to be the rest of my life.
And then we got out there and then I got in touch with Ellen
and Cindy again. And they were like, well, this
is our our deal just closed our overall deal and we can hire an
assistant. And they hired me as an
assistant on coach. So I got to sit in the hallway.

(14:31):
It was an old Xerox room that they literally moved the copy
machine out of for me. And there's no windows that
smells like toner. And and I sat in the hallway and
I listened to these were top of their game, classic sitcom
writers, like people who'd worked on Three's company and
stuff. And writers talk in the hallway
about problems of story problems.

(14:51):
And it was like a master class for a whole year listening to
how all these writers figured stuff out.
And, you know, And so that's kind of how I got in.
And, yeah. And I wrote a script at the end
of that with this writing partner.
And it was the, you know, the year of independent study in a
way that broke through. And we ended up getting our
first job off of that script. So a lot of fortunate things

(15:14):
happening all at once. Yeah.
I wasn't selfless and and volunteering as a social worker.
It's just we started with cat Yeah, I'm glad we started there.
I love these stories because I think it's a beautiful reminder
of there's no two identical routes to achieving where you
want to land and the the common threads are community and and

(15:38):
putting yourself out there and and continuing to show up for
yourself and you know be good people do good work.
I. I totally agree.
Five days that's insane and a good agent, not a like a not a
sketchy 1 like. We could have so easily been
taken advantage. We could have ended up drunk in
the desert. Like yeah, it it, it could have
gone really bad. But I do believe it cuz it's

(16:00):
like I talk into Rob Long. I was like this sounds I was
just naive and out in the open, but I was like, that sounds
really cool. What kind of how do I get to do
this? And then and then with Cindy and
Ellen, I really was not hiding the fact like this sounds like
the greatest job in the world. I'm really interested in it.
And I did follow up and I did follow through and I did write
that next script. And so it's a lot of being ready

(16:23):
and. Yeah, it's yeah.
And it's like, it is also about the follow up because it's like,
you know, when I was offered that, you know, weird thing with
Disney animation, it it's I was,I had a friend backing me who
could help me learn. I could, I would listen to him

(16:44):
and which is which is really important.
It's like, because as writers, we can all get very caught up
in, Oh my God, these words are just, these are, these are the
best words in the world. Nothing about them can be better
and everything always can be better.
And it can, you've got to be so open to, to hearing that and

(17:05):
taking advice and, and learning the ropes and not just expecting
to walk into a job or a writers room or an interview for a job
and expect that, that you're a, you're going to be as good as
anyone else at or everyone else.And that, that you have nothing

(17:28):
to learn. You have everything to learn
everything. And you do all your life, you do
all your career, you know, you're constantly learning and
honing skills and, and looking back and going, boy, that script
that I thought was just perfect.It's like.
Yeah, my mentor always said he'slike, know what you don't know

(17:50):
and don't fool yourself because you have to win anybody any
favors. No, that's what I, I tell young
writers a lot of times like they'll, they won't want to take
notes from people with experience.
And it's like you don't know enough yet to even know what you
don't know. Like you, you will write, write.
You got to keep writing. You got to like it on some
level. Otherwise you shouldn't be doing
it and just keep generating material.

(18:11):
And then at some point, you'll look back and be like, oh, I can
see why people saw promise versus this is low.
Yeah, also taking notes that youdon't even that you don't
believe even that you are somehow going to have to like,
how do I get myself to believe this and how do I get this to
make it work that that I always hate this term that hones your
craft. That is it's like that is you

(18:35):
learn from that and you also learn that that you know that
beautiful sentence. There's another one.
There's another one. And I think sometimes there's
beauty and like going back through old journals, I think
sometimes it's nice to see how far you've gone and then also
how much some of it's still very, very relevant or relevant
from a different point of view now.

(18:55):
And I think there's such value and, and taking in everything
that you can from the community around you, There's, there's
such ripple effects and, and positive, positive ripple
effects from that. Yeah, well, I would be willing
to bet just hearing Cat's story again and then hearing myself
talk, it's like, and and it justeven, you know, it's like, I'm
sure you have similar traits. Some of the traits of your

(19:17):
origin story are the reason you're successful.
It's that it's the quitting a job and just going in like I'm
I'm going to make it. It's going to be me or Cat just
saying like the same thing, justtaking a risk.
And I think part of it is that light bulb moment of this is
what I want to do. And I guess that's I, I didn't
have like, I'll give it two years.
I was like, this is what I'm going to do.

(19:38):
I'm going to figure it out somehow because it felt like my
soul was like, Ding, that's whatyou're doing.
So I think sometimes that's sortof the attitude you have to have
because there's so many pitfallsand barriers and speed bumps.
Well, and that's that's why I asked you Cat about how did it
if it felt like it loved you back, Because I think so often
we think that like it's not art if it doesn't hurt.

(20:01):
And I think sometimes having theability to step back and say
maybe this isn't the role for me, but this other Ave. is.
Is you can live your life going with the stream versus against
it. And it's, there's a positive to
like perspective and like, yeah,being open to a different
perspective than what you had this idea in your mind, you

(20:22):
know? Yeah.
I came to LA thinking I was going to do one thing and for
some reason I, I book a lot of paramedics.
But you know what, it pays the bills.
It's OK, you know it's true, it's okay.
I got to hear how you all met inreal life, but how did you all
start working together? Cuz you were both at Nickelodeon
in the 90s, correct? I was actually doing well thanks

(20:45):
to Kat. I got my first solo credit cuz
she had created a show called Sabrina the Animated Series.
And so I had gotten work with this other writing partner.
We had broken up and I was kind of, I've sort of figuring out
what I wanted to do, and Cat hadcreated this show with, what's
his name, Savage. Steve Savage.

(21:06):
Steve Holland. He's a great character in life,
in real life. But so I ended up getting hired.
Cat made I think $6500 total forcreating that entire show that
had like 200 episodes. Crazy.
But then Cat moved on to other stuff.
So she started writing like in before when we met, even before
that, before that show, Cat would Cat, I'm speaking for you,

(21:29):
but you'd done Rugrats and real monster, all these Nickelodeon
shows. So then I was I sort of did that
and then I got into the the Nickelodeon live action sketch
stuff for a few years and we were 100% when we got married.
Everyone's like, that's so cute.You're going to team up and
we're like, never, it'll never happen.
And we wrote separately. And then we neither of us, we
were desperate to get into primetime network half hour.

(21:52):
That's what we shared in common.That's all we wanted to do.
Yeah. OK.
And we weren't breaking in. It's like separately.
We just couldn't do it. And we ended up at one point
going to Cindy Shupak invited usto New York to do punch up on a
a show called Madigan Man that she had gotten on the air with a
Gabriel Byrne or something. It was really, and it was the
first time we were in the room. And so we went out there

(22:14):
together, sat in a room and, andit's a terrifying thing.
So you're like, are we going to argue about, you know, you
invited too many people to the wedding?
Like is, does, is shit going to come out in front of strangers?
And what we discovered is we actually really complemented
each other in the room and we had a perspective, two different
perspectives on relationship, like right in the room together.
And you could just tell everybody kept turning to us,

(22:36):
like, what do you guys think? And we're like, oh, this could
work. And we wrote a spec together and
within three months, I think we had our first job.
Yeah, won't work. So it was another like, click,
it was the right thing. Whatever 1 + 1 = 3 with us.
Yeah, yeah. It is one of those weird moments
where you just suddenly feel like I just stepped on to the

(22:56):
right path. Now, finally, I just now stepped
on to the right path. When you were doing your
separate things, were there qualities or characteristics of
the other's creativity that you admired or really liked or
enjoyed or like aligned with your sense of humor that then
helped and fostered like a better writing partnership later

(23:17):
on when that aligned or was it not even like in in your mind of
like, oh, this would be fun to fun to write with?
I'm going to wait. I don't hear cuts.
I don't think it was ever in my mind that I was going to work
with John. That's waiting for that I.
Think she's not? She's telling the truth.
Yeah, but. What Cat, do you remember this?

(23:39):
I remember we were dating. We got pretty serious pretty
quickly. I mean, I think we were engaged
within four months or something.Really were like, this is the
right thing. But about two months in, we were
both like, oh, let's we should read each other's scripts.
And we later admitted like we were both terrified.
Like, what if I was like, what if Cat's a terrible writer?
I that's going to be awful. And then Cat told me later she

(24:01):
had the exact same feeling. And thank God, they're like, oh,
no. Oh, good.
So I think we both respected like I Cat, I still quote, she
wrote a Northern exposure spec. It was so funny and so quirky
and odd. And it's the kind of stuff that
I like to write too. And I think we saw that in each
other's writing, but again, without the thought of we would
do it together more just like, OK, good.

(24:23):
I'm I'm impressed with her writing.
Yes, thank God, because it wouldhave been real rough on the
relationship you're. Like, yeah, this story would end
up completely differently. You should send that to someone
else to give you notes and positive.
Applications. Yeah.
Once you did become writing partners, how did you start
allocating responsibilities, supporting 1?

(24:46):
I mean, you already knew each other so well, but how did you
in a work partnership start supporting each other?
One thing that we discovered is you have to keep your marriage
relationship and your writing relationship very separate.
You can't bring into, you know, a discussion about what you want

(25:07):
a character to do and you know, be you know, and you burn
dinner, you know, it's, it's like, you know, whatever it was.
So we would always sit down. And then also to be good
writers, you have to be very critical of the writing and
which means you kind of have to be critical of each other when

(25:30):
you're trying to write somethingtogether.
And so you have to what we did because we would fight a lot in
the beginning and it was probably me being the aggressive
fighter. But I was being passive
aggressive, so it it was. Yeah, exactly.
I was just, I was just aggressive, aggressive.
Or you were just direct. Very direct respect that, but we

(25:57):
finally made and we would sometimes pull in things like,
you know, you you're ruining my story and you burn dinner all
right, you know it would be you would like you've left your
shoes on the floor. I can't, you know, it's like you
would bring in personal things to it sometimes, like.
And so we really made a pact that when we sat down to write

(26:21):
together, we are now business partners.
We're business partners in the business of writing, which is
completely separate from us being a married couple.
And so we would literally sit down and go, OK.
We would say it, we literally would say it.
We are now starting to write. We're going to be critical of

(26:44):
each other. We got to remember we can't take
it personally. And we would be like, OK, now we
start. And then at the end when we were
done writing, we're like, we need to remember we are, no,
we're not writing right now. We need to step off being
critical of each other. And, and we would say that it
was probably the first two yearswe.
Yeah, literally every time it was like a yeah, the habit and

(27:05):
it, I think it really helped us.Yeah.
Well, because I was going to askbecause they it it's so often
talked about that sitcom writing, the writers room is
everybody kind of coming in Monday morning and sharing
their, you know, weekend and what quirky things happened.
And I was curious how you kept healthy boundaries on that
because I think it could open you up to, you know, we've all

(27:28):
heard kind of like jokes and interviews where like, yeah, my
wife wasn't happy that I shared that in the writers room.
But like when you're both there?Oh yeah, yeah.
No, no, there was. In the room, what we realized is
like, there's, there's sort of there can't be secrets about our
lives to the other writers. And I think that's what we kind
of finally landed on because we can't be sitting there.

(27:50):
Like don't bring that up becauseotherwise that's not great for
the room energy. And so we're very much like Kat
could come in and if something blew up in my face or if she
wanted to and someone's like howwas the weekend, you know, CAD.
So I had the freedom to say whatever it was her life too,
and I freedom to stay mine. So and that was some of the

(28:11):
things people like the most is like hearing the two sides to
stuff. And we quickly learn like you
know what, it may be embarrassing in the moment, but
it gets stories on the board andyou around.
And so OK, fuck it, let's lose the ego out of this and just,
well. And be being willing to tell on
yourself, you know, I did this really the stupidest thing in

(28:33):
the world. You know, how dumb was this?
And, you know, and it's like, because those are the things
that end up making great stories, you know, nobody wants
to read be the story of the lifewhere everything was perfect,
you know? One of the other things that we
did that I don't want to forget to bring up because I think it's
helpful if people are trying to be partners.

(28:55):
It's we had this rule where it'slike you, if you're, you want
something in the script, like ifI felt very strongly about
something and cat and you're going to run into things where
cat feels equally strongly the other way.
And we had this rule that it waslike you had to, we had if, if
we were at an impasse like that,very quickly, you couldn't fight
it out for 20 minutes. After about 5 minutes, it's

(29:16):
like, OK, we gotta find a third completely different way.
And it's not partially me tryingto do my way and trying to sneak
it around or the cat doing the same thing.
And what was almost this cheat code?
Because very quickly, because that's hard and very quickly you
realize, I don't care that much.Well, let's do it your way or

(29:37):
vice versa. And it was almost like a, a
truth test. Like how much do you really care
about this? Are you really willing to go?
And then sometimes we'd be like,fine, we got to find a third
way. And that would be some of the
freshest stuff we would ever write because it wasn't what
either of us were initially wanting to do.
But it really helped us because you got to kind of trick
yourself into not into giving and taking, but also not giving

(30:01):
in if you think it's not right. Yeah, it's a tricky thing.
We love stories. Like the stuff we write is
almost like if we look back at the things we did, I feel like
My Name is Earl is where we really figured out who we were
and we spent a lot of time thereand stuff we do now.
We always like even a bad guy has their point of view on

(30:22):
things. And they, you know, it's that
classic. Well, the bad guy doesn't think
they're the bad guy. But I think part of it is
because we write together and wedid learn to be like, OK, we
both have to have these points of view expressed that that's we
put in our scripts is so we don't have a character who just
is 1 dimensional because it's soeasy to to do that.
And we're, we're, we're trained.We've trained ourselves because

(30:44):
of working together. Yeah.
Well, let's talk a little bit about that partnership with ABC
and, and the first look deal that you all had there.
And I mean, you had some, some shows that I loved.
I loved American Housewife and worked on the Neighbors.
How did that partnership grow and evolve?
And how did you challenge yourself in the the ideas and

(31:05):
the scripts that you were pitching to them?
How did we get in there? We, because we had, I guess we
were. Manifested it.
We want Yeah, exactly. Cat just said she wanted it.
A friend call. Yeah.
No, we were on Earl. That's what it kind of came from
because we were on My Name is Earl and we became important in
the room. We grew up very much, you know,

(31:25):
around. We had friends like characters
on Earl like that was. All for sure Love 1.
Across that show and you know, and so Garcia, Greg Garcia, the
creator, you know, I think he valued us enough that he, he got
us a, an overall deal at 20th. So we had, you know, a two year
deal at 20th and then we ended up getting a, a overall deal at
ABC Studios that lasted like 8 years or nine years.

(31:49):
It was a long time. And so when we got there, what
was interesting is at first whatthey want to do is they want to
make up their money. So then they assign you to
shows. And so they would assign us to
shows and then somehow we got wegot assigned early to I can't
remember which was the first sort of weird one.
And it might have been the neighbors like this sort of
there was this era where this guy Paul Lee, who we loved

(32:11):
network president, every year, he would pick up one thing that
everyone was like, Are you sure you want to pick that up?
And like the neighbors Gallivantand they were good shows.
He had good taste. And so we we came the people.
Paul Lee was like put cat and John on that.
They can help with grounding crazy things.
I don't know if that's true or not, but it became our job.

(32:33):
And so then they would do thingslike, well, we made a we're
doing a pilot with Sharon Horgan, but we need someone to
come in and help because, you know, it's like we're not.
And so we ended up working with like, you know, NIA Vardalos,
who's this friend now needed some help on a pilot.
So they assigned us. And so we kind of became these
sort of, I don't, I don't want to say script doctors, but
people that we were on the benchand they would put us into their

(32:55):
shows. But because Paul thought we
should be in these these, you know, odd shows, we got to do
insane stuff. It was crazy.
Thanks. Yeah, yeah.
Like streaming with network money, it was kind of nuts.
It truly was a different period of television for.
Oh my gosh. Yes, yeah.
But it. But, but we also got to do, you

(33:15):
know, we ended up going to New York and doing hope and Faith,
which was, you know, it was filmed in front of a studio
audience in New York. And so we got the opportunity to
go live in New York and, and, you know, work on that crazy
show. And it was a it was a ton of
fun. It was hard, but it was a ton of

(33:36):
fun. And so we just, I don't know.
And we, we are, we are also writers who I won't say that we
deliberately challenge ourselves, but if somebody,
because I hope and faith probably wouldn't if it were
shooting in LA, we might not have taken it.

(33:57):
But it's like we have, we can goto New York, we can go live in
New York for a year or two years.
And so we've kind of always divehead first into things some
somehow and, you know, like willing to take a weird chance
on something. And we love going somewhere
else, like Gallivant. We we moved to England to, you

(34:20):
know, five months, two years in a row.
We shot in Pittsburgh. We shot on a show.
We moved to San Francisco to work on the Pixar movie.
You know, it's like we we are and we don't have kids.
That that is probably painfully obvious.
Yeah. So we're ready to just live.
In a dream. Live in a dream.
But yeah, so we all, and the other thing is we're always

(34:41):
looking for stuff we haven't done and we've been blessed in
that way. We got to a certain point where
we our reputation was good enough.
We could kind of choose more. We would have a couple options
instead of one option. I want to talk a little bit
about the musicality of sitcom writing.
And you know, I think you touched on this earlier, but
like you can't teach funny. And I think some people

(35:03):
understand that musicality instinctively and and some
things can be strengthened or, or understood or learned.
Did it come naturally to you? My dad is a really funny guy.
My aunts and uncles on my, you know, my dad's brothers and
sisters were also really funny people.
Not so much on my mom's side. They were very serious.

(35:24):
My dad's side, they were funny people.
And I loved when, when the family would get together, they
were all farmers and in Washington state.
And once a year we would go and visit.
I lived in Michigan at the time.My dad had moved away from
Washington and the farming life and he was a social worker.

(35:45):
But we would go back and visit all the relatives in Washington
and all the men, typical, all the men would, you know, gather
around in the in the living room.
All the women would be in the kitchen, all the men would be in
the living room. And they would just tell funny
stories, like stories about stuff that had happened to them,

(36:06):
stupid things other people had done.
And it was always, even if something was tragic, there was
a way to make it funny. And I was the only girl who sat
in that room with them. I billion cousins and I'm the
only you know, and the price forsitting in the room was I had to

(36:27):
be funny too. If I was going to say anything,
it had to be funny. And that's, I swear those my
uncles and my dad are the reasonthat I'm a comedy writer.
It's like it was the price of itwas the price of listening in
was you better be funny also. What about you, John?

(36:48):
Yeah. And and is that what you mean?
Like what? Like, did it come naturally to
you? Like, because I think sometimes,
you know, people can be funny, but they can't write funny or
vice versa. And I'm curious if like the
musicality, if that just instinctively made sense to your
brain of how to write the structure of the jokes and and
the scripts, things like that. I think so.
I think it in college, I remember I took a playwriting

(37:10):
class and I was, you know, and everything I tried to, I wanted
to write serious stuff. Like I, I remember writing a
novella that it was so bad and, and it was cringy how serious it
was. And then I decided, you know
what, I'm just going to write this thing.
I had this idea about a bank robbery that I thought was kind
of funny that could be a play. And I wrote it.
And afterward, it's like everyone was like this.

(37:33):
I feel like I just watched a sitcom and it was, you know,
half a play with there was no structure to it.
And it was, I found it at some point maybe 15 years ago and it
really was a joke. And then the setting up of
another joke and it was all justdoing that and, and I just
remember just feeling very natural about it.
Like it's and I think it like with cat, it comes from I have a

(37:55):
family that is they tell storiesthe same thing.
You need to, you need to, you can't just say something.
It either has to be funny or emotional.
And it has a point like, and, and you just get they just, they
will go after you if it's boringor if it's not, you know, if it
falls flat. But then my mom's, my mom has AI

(38:15):
would say almost a sarcastic sense of humor, like a friendly,
like Roseanne Barr in the 80s, kind of like like cutting, but
kinder than that. But very observant, Like you
can't get away with anything. And her dad was a fighter pilot
who was like in World War 2 and Korea and Joint Chiefs of Staff.

(38:36):
And he was the funniest person Ithink I've ever met.
And so, and he, I idolized him and I, I hung out with, you
know, I would go there every summer and talk to and he really
drilled it in like it, it betterbe funny.
He would tell war stories that would have you like crying,
laughing because they were so funny.
And so I think naturally for me,it was that.

(38:56):
But I think also I just liked comedy.
And I recently, I remember in college I, I was like, I think I
want to find some way to do comedy.
I don't even know what it would be, but I, I, you know, I want
to make people laugh. And someone was like, Oh, that's
so touching. You want to make people laugh.
That's so giving. And I remember it was like, no,
no, it's not like I want to makepeople laugh.
It's like, I want to make peoplelaugh.

(39:18):
Like it was this selfish. I want to be the one that makes
them go ha ha, ha. And for a while I was like,
that's super selfish. And then I this is going to
sound corny, but at one point not too long ago, I was like,
you know what? I think when you make a joke and
someone laughs, there's a momentof connection with a person.
And I have a slightly cynical view of the universe for

(39:40):
everything we've said, it's kindof that it's like we might just
be these little satellites floating out in the middle of
space. There's no meaning or no point,
right? But when you make a joke, it's
almost like you've connected with another little satellite
floating around out there. And I think that's what I loved.
And because of that, I sort of studied sitcoms.
Like I really, even as a kid, like, why is that funny?
Like, why is MASH making me laugh so much?

(40:01):
And so. I don't know, but yeah.
So the very long answer to say II think it felt very natural,
like in the first comedy room I was in, I was like, oh, I I want
to keep doing this. I it's not that I'm nervous
about, well, my jokes hurt. It's hit.
It's more I could stay in here all day long.
Yeah I completely agree. As a an only child who was

(40:21):
homeschooled, my way of connecting was telling jokes and
making the joke first. Oh, is that true?
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Oh, yeah, I was quirky. You got to leave with jokes or
you're going to get buried underother people's.
And that was I would connect youwith people and I was like, OK,
this is this is something. It got me out of never knowing
the answer. In class.
I could make the teacher laugh and it's like, OK, you know,

(40:44):
there's a theme there. Probably because I was saying
book publishing. I didn't read anything, but I
could make jokes in those book publishing parties and they
thought I was very funny and cultured.
But really I was just hiding thefact I didn't know what I was
talking about. The personality hire is a very
real thing in a very valuable position.
I want to talk a little bit about how you outline a season
or start brainstorming because like American Housewife are

(41:05):
better with you when you have a number of serious regulars and
you have a number of different storylines that you can take and
and explore. How do you start divvying up
those storylines and episodes and a screen time and pages and
things like that? What do you think had like I I
feel like with the multi camerasand American housewife and in

(41:27):
some weird way was it was a single camera, but it was it was
and structured like a multi camera.
Yeah. So that as that as an example,
there would always be Katie was it was the A story without a
doubt. The B story was Diedrich and the
kids were probably the C story and some form of that or it's,
you know, it's the husband and wife.
And so you always go with the A story.

(41:50):
This is how we would do it. It's like the A story matters.
Like you really got to have that.
And the B story really matters too.
But those seem to come up. Those were more, more in the
moment. I thought a lot of times, like
what complements the A story andthe way we would always approach
is sort of a, you know, a character's emotional want.

(42:10):
Like we have the simplest rule of, of writing, which is it's a
character that wants something and something's in the way.
And we always remind ourselves of that.
That's all it is. And so if we wanted to come up
with an American housewife, who would, you know it?
I forget. It's been so long.
I don't remember what we wrote, but I remember.
It'd be like, OK, well, Katie wants to get invited to the
Halloween Ball, but she's being shunned.

(42:32):
And so she's going to find, she's going to throw her own
party to show she doesn't reallycare.
So now you have a want. And then now what are you going
to put in the way of that? You're going to make it.
That's the same day that, you know, Deidrick Bader's
characters got reenactment that's going to and now that's
split and so now his B story is the reenactment and then so you
just start building out. But really we always start with
what is the a story lead want and then what's in the way of

(42:56):
it? And then how do we make those
weave? And how do you up the
complications of that, that it's, you know, it's you.
I mean, because obviously you got to have a, you've got to
have the want. You've got to have the thing
that blocks the want. Then your character has to try
to surmount that obstacle. And then there's another one or,

(43:19):
you know, it's so you got to keep upping the ante in those
things. And so you can have a lot of
discussion about about how to, how to build that, how to build
that form. And then I feel like also, so I
would say multicam sitcom is in is very different from singlecam

(43:40):
in the approach in the way we'vetalked about it.
And multicam, you can have a much smaller want.
You'd still need it. I mean, if you think of Seinfeld
like, you know, Elaine would, it's like, oh, I wanted to buy
that hat, but someone bought it from me.
And now that entire episode is Iwant that hat no matter what,
even if I have to sneak into someone's house.
So it's always a deep, desperateI want, but with a single camera

(44:04):
show, you're you're because you're not just a joke delivery
device. You kind of have to have
something more real at the core of it.
And the way you break those stories, usually those are more
serialized. So like we did a show called
Downward Dog that we loved and it had a talking dog on it.
I swear to God, it wasn't bad. It was really good.

(44:26):
It was really good. It wasn't good.
And so that one we knew Allison Tolman's character like we we
talked out with the guys who created the show, like what do
we want to say about her life? And so we arced out her life.
But then we also needed to know what is the dog's arc, you know?
And we arced that out. And then we were like, we really

(44:47):
like this Lucas Neff character and we like this idiot boss.
And so we would kind of, we always had this thing.
At one point we heard someone said the pitch for.
Freaking bad. Was I'm going to take Mr. Rogers
and turn him into Scarface, likethat was kind of the pitch.
And so we approach seasons of television with, you know, we
did Gallivan. We had King Richard, who was a

(45:09):
doofusy king. And in season 2, when it was
all, it was our show, we're like, we're going to take the
doofus and make him the one kingto control the universe.
And we took, this is a captured Princess.
We're going to make a Joan of Arc.
And we would flip where they started and where they ended.
And that's kind of what we did. We made, if you look at downward
dog, he's very subtle. But it was like Allison Tolman's

(45:30):
character was offered the job tobe the boss, and that was her
arc. And So what are all the things
that go in there? Do you all have a litmus test
for each other or with each other?
When we're dialed in like this is where this is the character's
voice, this is where we're supposed to be going.
When we start, I would say when we start syncing up, like we

(45:50):
will start pitching around ideas, stories, characters,
whatever it is. And there will be a point where
we will start, yes, anding each other like, oh, I get that, I
get that. That's really funny.
And then what if like then then something like this, you start

(46:10):
building with each other rather than, you know, like, no, I
don't like that idea. No, that's, you know, whatever
it is, it's like you start building those ideas together
and you we you can also be sneaky and say that's a great
idea. And what if also this happens?
That is like a 180 from what theother person picked and it but

(46:32):
if you start it with like that is a great idea.
And what if on top of that, you know?
I remember also we were we were doing a project.
There's this director James Ponsold, who is he's he's so
smart and fun. It the show never ended up
going, but Kat and I'd written acrazy pilot that was about our
marriage and it was basically about two stringers, those

(46:53):
people who drive around filming,you know, accidents and stuff.
They would sell the and. Then sell to the news.
To the news and stuff like that it.
Was a real job in the 90s like that could make money and Kat
and I had been in on network deals for a long time and we're
like we had a friend who had a avery strict come to Jesus talk
with us in England when we were there and she's like, you guys

(47:16):
would put yourself in a cage with golden bars and you have
more to offer you need to get out of these network deals.
You're afraid and she was like, you're afraid you, you got to
have. And we really listen and we're
like, OK, let's, let's do it. And we're like, we're out.
And then we got out there and then pretty quickly with our
agent, we, I think we've sold a pilot and we're like, whoa, we
need to sell like 4 pilots to make up from what we left.

(47:37):
It was money wise, but we wrote this pilot where we were like it
was about a married couple who were working as stringers
together going around LA and then the market changed in the
90s and they suddenly lost everything.
If we were writing about our fear of like what happens?
Like if, what if we just made the biggest mistake in our life.
Anyway, long way to get to JamesConsult.

(47:58):
Love the script. We were, you know, we, we got
together. We were trying to set it up at
AMC and we needed to pitch out the season and Kat started
pitching this thing and started crying while she was pitching
out this, this moment. And I remember Ponselt was like,
there it is. And and we're like, you know, I
remember being like, I don't know, does that add up?
He's like, it doesn't matter When that happens, that's when

(48:20):
you know, that's where you have to go.
And we've held on to that thought for so long. 100% right.
So if you have a moment, you're talking about it and you feel
yourself choking up, throw everything else out and get to
that because that's all these things are as emotional
delivery. Yeah, that's where that's where
your story is, that's where it needs to be.
And it it ended up taking the whole end of the series into a

(48:45):
completely different direction. And we didn't end up selling it,
but it it got it got close and we still use it as a a sample.
Help us get the Pixar. And like, you know, there's
something good that comes out. But I'll even say we're doing
this musical now for Disney Plus.
And we, you know, we read stuff out loud once we've written it.

(49:07):
And in this one, a couple places, like we're both tearing
up as we're reading. And we're like, OK, that that
means it's working. That's how we know.
I think that we're all yeah. Now wait, is this a different
musical than the Broadway musical?
Yes, yes, crazy. And we're obsessed with we're
doing a Disney Plus musical. I I think it's fine to talk
about. It's, it is a thing.

(49:27):
It's it hasn't been announced inthe trades, but it's with Alan
Menken, who we worked with on Gallivant and Glenn Slater's
Lyricist, and Fogelman and Jess Rosenthal are producers.
It's from 20th for Disney Plus and we just did a revised script
we turned into Disney Plus today.
What inspired you to take on musicals?

(49:48):
It was the accident of being on Gallivant that got us really
excited about musicals. It was and then and being and
being getting involved in that whole process and learning about
it, it was, it felt like magic. I mean, it's a lot of hard work,
but it felt like real magic. It it takes something to a

(50:11):
different level, you know? And it was so fun and like going
to pre records, working with musicians.
It's like sometimes you would have a whole orchestra come in
to record music and you're like,I am sitting and like, this is
where, you know, like Gone with the score for Gone With the Wind

(50:33):
was recorded and I'm sitting in that studio, you know, looking
at all these musicians you know,we have.
It's like Alan Menken did our music on Gallivant.
So like meeting Alan, working with Alan, getting his
perspective on things, Our lyricist from Gallivant, you

(50:56):
know, he's taught us so much. We're working with him on the
new project. And it's just, it's, it's your,
I don't know. It is, it is crazily, it is just
sort of like you're creating this magical thing that that
expands to a different, a different level of storytelling.

(51:19):
That it's not just something youare, you know, you're hearing
the words you're feeling, the music you're getting.
It's like because music so much is a metaphor.
You can't. Someone can't burst into song
unless there's nothing else thatthey can do.
It has to be an emotional momentwhere they have to express it in
song. So that means as a writer, you
got to tee this stuff up to the point where it's like, I have to

(51:41):
sing about it. Yeah, yeah.
Which makes you have to write. It's it's a little bit harder
writing because you can't, you can't fudge a story and beat.
It has to be very honest. And and that we happen to love
that like we always try to mine.What's the honesty?
Even if it's hope and faith, like what's the honesty of that
moment? That's where the funny is.

(52:03):
And so we love that. And then music, like musicians,
approach storytelling in the world differently.
And having that thrown into the mix, I could see where some
writers would be like, no, I know what I wanted it to be, but
we kind of like obstacles in creativity because they make you
think different. Yeah, when you need to stop down
with the whole team and hash something out, it does get

(52:26):
better because no one person wins that battle.
It becomes all of you coming to a consensus space and winning it
all together, you know? And frankly, we got to work with
Alan Minken. And if Alan's like, that's not a
song, it's not a song. And we actually had this thing

(52:47):
set up. This is, again, Dan Fogelman
worked on Tangled with them and they kind of set up their
system, which is, and we did it at Gallivant, which is it's easy
to rewrite scenes. So we'll write the scripts.
And then Alan and Glenn, we would put in places where we're
like, maybe there's a song aboutthis.
And but then Alan and Glenn had the right at any moment to
either say, yes, that's a song, or it's a different song, or

(53:09):
just pick a scene and make it a song.
It it. We were allowed to do that.
And then we would adjust the script accordingly.
And it worked great. And it did force you to think
different. And I think that's why that
showed Gallivant. It's, it's a cult, cult love
show. And it's because it had to be
agile. And it feels that way, yeah.

(53:32):
I'm so excited for more musicalsfrom the two of you, be it on
stage or on screen. Very excited, very excited.
Now, you all have played in in so many sandboxes and mediums
and been successful writing partners for so long.
But then, Kat, you decided to take on a novel project, and I'm
curious, with having written in so many mediums, what was it

(53:54):
about this story that a novel was the right vehicle for it?
It was looking back on, I had kind of an unsettled childhood,
I would say. And my parents got divorced when
I was pretty young. My mom, who is a nurse, married
the doctor. She ran off with the doctor.

(54:16):
She did a stereotypical thing. Then my dad got remarried and I
started to feel sort of like very not part of any family
anymore in in a weird way. And, and I also lived out at
that point when my dad got married to my stepmom, she came

(54:36):
with a son also. And it was my life was very
changed. And around that time, my mom
asked if I would like to come live with her and her new
husband. And I was like, yes, I'll give
it a shot. And that was in Kansas and this
little town in the middle of nowhere Kansas, a town of 5000
people, you know, like 2 hours away in any direction from the

(54:58):
next nearest town. And so it was like being in the
Great Plains. But it also turned out that my
stepfather was an abusive alcoholic.
And so there was a lot of traumahappening and trying to deal
with it and trying to still go to school and put a good face on

(55:23):
things and not let people know what was going on at home.
And, and, and, and that kind of became a, a spark for this story
that I ended up writing. I don't know what how 2530 years
later about a girl who lives in in the middle of the house in

(55:48):
the middle of nowhere, Kansas. You know that her, you know,
she's in her mid 20s. She works at a coffee shop and
she when you walk into her coffee shop, she always knows
exactly what coffee you're goingto order.
And it's never, ever wrong. And it's one day this kid walks

(56:12):
into the coffee shop and orders what she absolutely knows is the
wrong coffee. And but she can't stop him and
say, no, that's the wrong coffeebecause there's drama happening
in the coffee shop. And so for the first time in her
life, she gives somebody what she absolutely knows is the
wrong coffee. And then after that, he vanishes

(56:33):
and she goes looking for him. And it's sort of leads starts
leading you into her past. Why she's this person.
It's because of abuse in the family that when you've grown up
in an abusive family, you begin to you have to be able to walk

(56:55):
in a room and say this is a safeday.
Oh, this is not a safe day. This is I better make myself
scarce today. I better be extra good or it's
like you, you, you begin to you,you get the vibe of everything
that's going on around you. And it was something that I
learned at a certain point in mychildhood.
And it's that's really what the whole book is about.

(57:18):
It's about abuse, recovering from abuse, but it's all wrapped
up in a kind of a crazy, ridiculous murder mystery.
Thank you for telling that kind of story.
The the worrying about what kindof day it was.
That's like so spot. On.
Has it been cathartic and healing writing that?

(57:43):
It was incredibly, it helped me process a lot of that stuff, I
think because I could start to see it from different people's
point of view. My mom, you know, my mom and I
became closer again later on. She passed away recently, but we

(58:04):
we had a coming together. It was incredibly cathartic for
me to write it and it really helped me process some stuff
that I was still dealing with. My stepfather was a scary guy.
And like I said, you never knew from day-to-day who he was going

(58:26):
to be. Was he going to be fun?
Was he going to be funny? Was he going to be really drunk?
Was it going to be scary? And, and you had to learn to,
and it sounds like you've had similar experiences and you
really know that it's like you've got to find a way to cope
with all of that. And one of the ways I coped with
all of that was like diving intowriting, living in imaginary

(58:49):
worlds basically, and taking myself away from that.
You had told me this really stuck out is you're like the
worst part of the in a way, one of the worst things about it was
the expectation that you were just going to keep quiet and no
one was going to talk about whathappened outside of the house.
And you were almost the cruelestpart of it is just they assumed

(59:11):
you wouldn't say anything and you said that you didn't.
And then writing the book, you were like, fuck you, it's my
story, I'm telling it versus youtelling me what I can tell.
And yeah, I took control of the story and I could tell it in my
terms and I was very, very honest.
There's like a a very difficult scene in there that was really

(59:33):
hard to write and 'cause it brought up so many things for me
too. And I literally sat this in the
same town in the house that I and so I was mentally revisiting
that house constantly. But it really it, I don't know,

(59:53):
like I said, super cathartic. It helped me put these things in
places where I can now say, yeah, that was really terrible.
But that doesn't define me. But the benefit of coming out
the other side is you honestly do come out stronger.
The heart that you have for it and the vulnerability, it makes

(01:00:16):
so much sense of being fans of your work and and resonating
with characters that you've created and written.
It makes so much sense now, liketalking to the two of you and
and seeing little like flickers of you and the characters and I,
it's just it's very enjoyable totalk to you both.
It's like we don't see that. And then people will be like,

(01:00:36):
did you write this thing? And then it will be like, yeah,
they're like, I knew it. Like they'll see it.
We won't even. We won't even know it.
Yeah, it's really funny. While Cat was working on a
novel, you were working on paradise.
When you're building a world that has elements that feel
familiar to the audience, what are the responsibilities of the
writers? And I'd love to hear, like, the
aspects that you wanted to pay special attention to, the

(01:00:59):
integrity and the technical advisors and consultants, the
people that you started having conversations with.
And I know you have, you know, personal ties to that world.
How you all started building those mini rooms into the
series? Yeah, it, it was all started
with Dan. He wrote this pilot and and then

(01:01:21):
he got, he brought in me and thewriter Scott Weiner and and Jess
Rosenthal, his producing partnerand they, they made a deal for
us to sit around. I think it was like 6 weeks or
something and just start talkingabout like, what, what is it?
And I think for Dan, he's, you know, he's such a, a powerhouse
that if, if he's wants to do it,it'll be great.

(01:01:43):
But so he's in the position of, do I want to spend the next
three years of my life on this? Do do I have I found something
that I want to spend that much time with?
And so we really started exploring it.
And very early on it was like, this isn't, this is an area
that's been done, post apocalyptic stuff has been done
before. And I remember it was like day
2. I remember thinking, you know, I

(01:02:05):
had the one thing I haven't seenis a Fogelman version of what
the end of the world could look like.
And what he does so well is it'sjust zeroing in on characters.
And, you know, it's kind of we were talking about before, what
do they want and what's in the way?
But and what, and really what hetakes it even beyond that is
what defines a person. And he really figures that out.

(01:02:28):
And I think is that's an obsession in a weird way.
Like I, we share novels a lot like, oh, well, I love this.
You want to read it? And it's interesting because it
it the stuff that he's drawn to,you know, it really is the kind
of stuff that he writes movies and TV about, which is sort of
the origin of a human being and the whole story, not just this

(01:02:50):
episodic story. So so that became like, OK,
well, here we are. We have these people down there.
So that was one part of it. It's like, look, if, if you're
going to do this, I think you, you're, you got to do it your
way. That was my point of view.
And I think I wasn't alone. I think all of us in the room,
it's like that's what it's goingto be.
That excites me. Like I, I want to see that
version. And then we started talking to

(01:03:12):
all these experts on Zoom and we, you know, it's like Ted talk
people and the people would citenon disclosures and then they
would, you know, come up in a room and it would just be the
four of us sitting in there. And it was so funny because Dan
would be like, so imagine like, you know, we're talking to a
futurist or who designed cities.And Dan's like, imagine if Elon
Musk hired us. Just picture that Elon Musk just

(01:03:33):
gave us the money, hired us and told us that we want to build an
underground city. How would you go about that?
And you can see these people arealways like, did Elon Musk just
hire you? Like what's going on here?
And we had these incredible conversations.
And through those, we started sort of the second pillar of
this show is it's kind of it's abig buy.
It's a bunch of people living underneath a mountain.

(01:03:55):
We need to make all the details as realistic as as possible.
That really mattered. So we did our research on the
sky is the technology. And even when that guy falls
through it at the end of the first season, if you stopped it
and then went to the sphere and looked at how that it was built,
that's exactly what it is. And so that was really important

(01:04:16):
is doing research and doing research both on technical
stuff, what's possible. We also talked to someone who is
an expert in sort of societal building societies in a way.
And the question was at the beginning, would they be chasing
a utopia or would they not? And he's like, and so we hired

(01:04:36):
this guy to write a paper as if we had hired him to build a city
and breakdown, what is it that we would want?
And surprisingly, he came back with, you can't have a utopia.
It will fall apart. You need to have people of
different status. And then what we did is we got
that paper and we're like, OK, and these selfish billionaires

(01:04:57):
couldn't keep from building mansions.
And so we let that greed fill inand we had our rule book, but
then we let them them mess it up.
So that's where sort of the honesty of that is, is like,
what was the repercussions of their greed going from there?
And just kind of started fillingall that in.
But ultimately I think, and I don't know if Dan even agrees,

(01:05:19):
but I, I think this is a show about trauma and loss and a
world where, you know, and I mean, in showbiz right now, I'm,
I'm, it's like everybody wants to help everybody, but you can't
help everybody. And, and these horrible
questions that happen in life ofif you could save people, you

(01:05:40):
know, they put people in these positions that are almost
impossible. With family in the military and
also good friends in Secret Service, I have to compliment
that y'all got the dark humor like spot on.
Like, I don't think unless you have people that you care about
in your life with those professions, you understand how
that they make these jokes and that is how that's just how they

(01:06:02):
connect. I'm so glad.
And yeah. And it's also, I mean, like
Fogelman, we, we knew him as a comedy writer 1st and he's, he's
one of the funniest comedy writers we've ever worked with.
And so his sense of humor is great.
And then for me, you know, it's like the, that grandpa that I
had that was so influential. I used to go, he used to take me
to Langley Air Force Base to play golf with fighter pilots.

(01:06:24):
And I was, I was like 13 or 14. And they played beer golf, which
means, and then some of these guys would come out of the F15
still in like their jumpsuits and they'd meet us at the tee
and we would basically play the beer golf was when you got to
the green, you could chug a beerto take a point off.
And maybe you've heard of this. Oh.
Yeah, I grew up in the South. Yes, I've heard of.

(01:06:46):
This. So we played, I played beer golf
with F15 Pilots as a 13 and 14 year old where I was like
chugging a beer or two there. And that was sort of my
grandpa's like, yeah, that's thegame you're either going to play
with the men or not. You know, that was his attitude.
And. But I heard how they all talked
and their grim sense of humor. That is kind of the only way
sometimes for them to. Yeah, process some stuff.

(01:07:10):
Yeah, our. Grandpas would have gotten
along. Well, he was.
He was a South Carolina, you know.
Virginia. Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, the whole family's from Virginia, by the way.
That whole side is Virginia, Yeah, back to like 1710 or
something crazy. Oh yeah, yeah, Bob was Bob was
fantastic. And it was and he also, he grew

(01:07:32):
up with his dad had passed away early and he had sisters and and
so he grew up with all women. And so it's like he loved
hanging out with like we, he andI would sit together, I mean,
John too would, and we drink thesame kind of martinis he made
when he was in the war and and tell stories.

(01:07:54):
It was the best. I'm curious on a personal level
what it was like to experience being on set for filming episode
7 with just the the grandeur of it when it had been in your head
and and your ideas for so long. Yeah.
And, and I do have to give credit to the room and, you
know, break these stories as a group.

(01:08:15):
And, you know, it's like they'rethese two writers, Stephen
Markley and Katie French, who did a lot of work on the outline
because I was still running the room and that they set me up to
win and the whole room set it all up.
So, you know, these, you know, they're all team efforts.
Television is a team effort, butthat one just hit me because of
this grandfather who was an advisor of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff. He briefed presidents.

(01:08:36):
He was in those rooms so I wouldhear how they talk.
And then what really struck me is even in the highest tension
moments in the White House, there's still these emotional
issues between people. And so that to me was extremely
important to put in the script that the speech writers upset
they're cutting a section of thespeech, even though it's the
last speech a president will ever give.

(01:08:57):
And and being. Precious both your words, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That was our shout out to to all
writers. But for me, it was extremely
emotional because it was it, youknow, that opening is that's my
grandpa. That's his uniform.
The the costume people made it his medals on his chest.
The opening shot is of his squadron from World War 2.

(01:09:19):
There's a flight jacket that's his.
And so it was to me a tribute and I needed to get it right.
And I needed to, I needed to have the military people to
speak the way they do. His last name is Kurtly.
And so we couldn't get it cleared with KIRTLEY.
But there's a, there's a generalKurtly in the thing.
And because of that, I felt liketo, from just my personal

(01:09:42):
selfish point of view, it was like, this is me honoring, you
know, the people who have done all these things.
But very personally, my grandfather.
But the experience on set was insane because John and Glenn
with the directors were they hadthis brilliant idea of like,
what we're going to do is we're going to rehearse this like a

(01:10:03):
play. And we had to let 20th know
we're not going to roll camera maybe for an hour and a half or
two hours. Nothing's wrong.
And we wanted those big scenes to play out real time.
And so we had so many extras andwe wanted their real reactions.
And so the big thing was let's run it like a play and then
we're going to film it all as a winner at least once, maybe

(01:10:24):
twice, and then we'll go in and pick it apart a little.
Because of that, everybody was experiencing the whole scene and
it was the perfect choice. So that made it feel very real.
And then now you're watching Sterling and James Marsden
deliver these lines. And I mean, everybody, you know,

(01:10:44):
every one of those actors just brought their A game.
And I feel like everybody felt alittle bit like this is you
could feel everything was clicking our set design, like
our our production designer withthe White House killed it.
And like every single person on that crew was clicking.
And I think everyone could feel like this is working.

(01:11:07):
And so you kind of, you know, there wasn't much for me to do
but just sit back and watch everybody do their great jobs
and like watching. There's the the argument that
Sterling and Mars didn't have onthe tarmac before they go into
Air Force One. That was wild because I mean,
there were planes taking off in the background.
We were shooting at in a real airport and, and it was loud.

(01:11:29):
Everyone was riveted as they didthose those takes.
And I heard James say he's like,look, I'm bringing my A game.
I'm doing this with Sterling in this scene.
And I think Sterling's attitude was pretty much the same.
Like we're going to, we're giving it everything we've got.
Everyone just kind of came in, yeah, doing the rest work.
It was. It was so special.

(01:11:50):
It was so special. I don't think that scene could
have been indoors. I think it had to be outside.
Like the energy that they had was just so incredible.
I think I've watched, I think I've watched the episode 5 times
full season, but I've watched that episode because I've like
watched it every time I've been prepping for something.
And I also just very, very much enjoyed it.
And it's just it, it's a love letter to those professions.

(01:12:18):
It was important I, I think to everyone, but like even when the
the Joint Chiefs are in a plane that is going down and isn't
going to make it to the bunker, but they're still suggesting
what they think is the best course of action.
I just remember like, of course that's what they would do.
Like there's no like save ourselves in these people.
And so that was important too. Kind of everyone had dignity.

(01:12:40):
And the other thing that I thought was really important in
that is like, yeah, Marsden had to make the horrible decision
and he's he had to decide who's going, who's not.
He's lying to people. But it was important.
Like in the conversations with Dan, it's like, let's put
Sterling in that position. I remember Dan's instinct very
early was there needs to be someone he's lying to also.

(01:13:01):
And it was like, what a genius thing to add, which is you could
easily have done a version of this where Sterling was just
trying to get the president out.And all this other, the fact
that he's lying to Marsha and doing the same thing, it just
makes it so human because there are no clean answers in any of

(01:13:22):
this. And then Marsden, like the
president is trying to do the right thing.
His entire goal in that episode,the first time he opens his
mouth like this, goes down to this stupid simple thing that
Cat and I always do. Marsden's goal is he wants to do
the right thing. And the problem is the plan.
The plan is his obstacle becausethe plan is feels wrong and he

(01:13:42):
finally breaks the plan. I mean, he's heroic at the end
when the plan is get there, don't pull that EMP.
He's he's he's doing it. And Sterling's goal is as dumb
simple as get the president and my family to Andrew's.
And then that scene we're talking about.
The reason that scene works is because he's still it's like

(01:14:02):
there's this moment where he's like, I don't know what to do
and and the president's like, you know what to do.
And it's true that character will do the right thing and he
needs to finish his goal, which is president and family, but
he's just left behind one memberof the family and that there'll
be a completely different story if that whole story was I need

(01:14:23):
to get my wife to Andrew's because then it falls apart.
But the fact it's about my family and the president to the
bunker keeps it alive. And even to the point where he's
in the plane and he's basically saying I'm protecting you.
He's saying to his wife, even though he's, he's still not
giving up on this goal to protect his wife, even though
he's watching a missile hit. So I don't know it, it, it just

(01:14:48):
all came together. But what it came down to is just
the truth of how these people would really act and staying
true to their characters and stuff.
There were such powerful, powerful moments that were
balanced by, you know, I have such a visual of the the
gentleman mopping and, and then the tie options and like
they're, they're it gave such dignity and respect to all

(01:15:14):
members that are making this machine go forward, which was
really, really beautiful. One of my favorite things that
we didn't really see until the edit is Robinson when basically
she they go down in the elevatorand she's saying like the
helicopter took fire, you know, prepare for live fire.
Like she's and then they go running off with this cat team

(01:15:37):
with the president and everybodywith the guys, you know, the
tactical people. And then she gets back in that
elevator and then takes a breathbecause we just heard people
shot up there and she's going back up.
And it it was like watching thatin the edit.
I remember we were all like, holy shit.
Like that is so emotional. And the way she played it, I

(01:15:57):
mean, it was how she played it, which is she's, she doesn't know
what she's walking into, but she's doing it like she was.
To me, that was one of the most exciting characters through the
series because we sort of set her up as one thing and then she
is a, she's like like an action hero.
It's really cool. Cat and John, I could talk to
you for hours. Thank you so much for being so

(01:16:18):
generous with your time and yourinsight and also just for
continuing to inspire and, and create these beautiful stories
and characters for us to love onand, and see ourselves.
And so thank you so much for joining us.
Well thank you, this has been a lot of fun and we really enjoy
doing this and talking about ourwork.

(01:16:40):
Hi everyone, thanks for listening and being the absolute
best part of our creative community here at What's My
Frame? If you'd like to learn more
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame?
To stay in the know for upcomingevents, I'm your host, Laurie
Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.