November 24, 2025 • 45 mins
Today on What's My Frame I'm joined by Britton Payne. Britton is an entertainment attorney, recently of Warner Bros. Animation and Nickelodeon. On the side, Brit regularly presents at comic cons and elsewhere about autism and pop culture, including "Authentically Creating Autistic Characters," "Autism in Comic Books," and "After 50 Years, Why do Spidey Super Stories Comics Still Matter to Autistic Kids and Everybody Else?."
This year, Brit started The Autism Scene, a nonprofit advocating for the inclusion of explicitly autistic characters in kids pop culture. This winter, The Autism Scene is running the AuSPEC AWARDS, a kids animated series spec script competition, which requires a series regular meaningfully interacting with an explicitly autistic character. Brit and his wife Alice are active community members of The Frostig School in Pasadena, which is dedicated to helping children, teens and young adults with learning differences live and learn to their full potential.
Brit@TheAutismScene.org
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hi everyone. Today on What's My Frame, I'm
Jamie Britton Payne. Britt takes us through his
career from entertainment attorney to this year starting
the Autism Scene, a nonprofit advocating for the inclusion of
explicitly autistic characters in kids pop culture.
Britt shares his powerful work moving the needle for
authentically creating autistic characters and shares how you
can get involved in this Winnersall Spec awards animated script
(00:25):
competition putting autistic characters in the spotlight.
Now let's get to the conversation.
Hey Brett, welcome to What's My Frame?
How you doing? I'm doing great.
It's so nice to see you. Would you mind just starting us
off with your creative back story, your business creative
back story and your journey intothe industry?
(00:46):
And then we'll start diving intosome project specific stuff.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I went to law school
late in life. I was a director in New York
City doing all kinds of writing and theater and sketch comedy
stuff and went to law school late and practiced law in New
York City for I think it was about 8 or 9 years about that.
And then wanted to move. Started, had started a family.
(01:09):
So I wanted to, you know, live somewhere else and ended up
getting a job at Warner BrothersAnimation as an attorney.
It was my first job in showbiz and then after that I worked in
Nickelodeon for about 60 years. And during that time, actually
just before moving to LA to workfor Warner Brothers, my son got
diagnosed with autism. At about about 18 months is when
(01:31):
they first found that there was something that we needed to look
into. And we got the formal diagnosis
maybe a year or two later. And so that has sort of been
formed my career a little bit. And, you know, getting into in
showbiz and that and as working as somebody, as somebody working
in the industry. I also found that there were
(01:51):
things that I wanted to do, you know, with, with my Rolodex.
And given that my son was autistic and I could see sort of
how the world was that he was going to be entering.
And even the one that he was already in at his elementary
school was, was working that that there are ways that I
thought maybe I could try and motivate people to influence
(02:11):
that. But the better so he could, he
could be his best self and be ina world that that understands
him a little bit better. So as part of being in showbiz,
just as a lawyer, I'm also trying to push for more
explicitly autistic characters in kids pop culture so that kids
can have another way of learningabout their peers who are
(02:32):
autistic and, and better understanding and having better
empathy and, and modeling the kind of behavior that we we hope
to see from the world as it it interacts with our autistic
friends and family and strangersin the world around us.
Yeah, now I, I think so often when someone is personally or,
(02:54):
or a loved one is personally affected by something and their,
their trajectory in life is different.
People go one of two ways. They either go in and they
hunker down and, and focus on their core unit, or they try to
have this ripple effect and theytry to work outwardly and, and
help as many people as possible.And I'm curious, what was that
(03:15):
motivator? What was it within you that made
you want to change the narrative?
It's a really interesting question.
It's something that parents of special needs kids think about a
lot earlier than their parents think about.
When you get a diagnosis like that for your kid, you
(03:35):
immediately start thinking abouttheir launch into the world.
How can I best prepare my son inthis case, I can best prepare my
child and launch into the world because it was going to, we knew
at that point it was going to take a lot of work and it was
going to be a different path. And it wasn't something that
maybe we could take for granted the way we do with our daughter.
(03:56):
You know, that that, oh, she's progressing without these
particular kinds of obstacles. And we, we were, we would notice
that we were starting to think about things.
My wife and I were starting to think about things at an
extraordinarily young age that other parents don't think about
until the kid is 17 or the kid is 22 or the kid is 25.
(04:18):
You know, we had to think about it right away.
And especially because you don'tknow that your child's going to
be able to live independently depending on what their
circumstances. So that means that very early
on, you're thinking about the world that you have to launch
them into. And I think I think that's a
somewhat common for parents of special needs kids and parents
(04:38):
of autistic kids is thinking about like, OK, well, I'm not
going to be able to be here forever.
And, and hopefully they're goingto have a long and happy and
healthy life, but how can I bestprepare them for that?
And so the hunker down that you're describing is what you do
with your own kid. But then this out we're looking
thinking is if you have, we all can impact the world.
And sometimes you can impact in a small way and you're in just
(05:00):
your, in your community and sometimes you have access to
something, it sends a broader message and, and impacts the
broader world. And the fact that I'm, you know,
sitting here in Hollywood and, and have access to these kinds
of things means that like, well,all right, I, I have this social
capital of some sort. You know, I know people who are
involved in this process in the creative way and can make things
(05:20):
happen that that reach millions and millions of people.
What can I do, you know, to nudge things in a direction that
I think would be helpful for my son and people like him?
Could you explain the three different types of
representation and how we as an audience take in that
representation? Yeah, some of this comes from
the Geena Davis study. It was a really interesting
(05:41):
study of representation in pop culture and specifically in kids
pop culture. It was a presentation that I got
to see at Nickelodeon. It was tremendous.
And among the things they talkedabout were the the nature of
representation, the different kinds of representation, whether
it's a gender or race or disability in the case that I'm
interested in. And the 333 forms of
(06:03):
representation, at least that I've sort of been able to
whittle it down to is 1 is codedrepresentation.
Then there's explicit representation without obstacle
and explicit representation withobstacle.
The coded representation is like, you know what's going on
here, but the word is just not put to it though.
For example, Big Bang Theory, you know, you can watch that
(06:25):
show. I'm sure those, some of those
guys are almost certainly autistic, but my understanding
is they never use the word and it it is just coded.
And then there's explicit representation with obstacle
without obstacle. Excuse me.
So that's like an example of that is like in a, in a kids
cartoon show with anthropomorphic dogs that go out
and, you know, put out fires and, and, and rescue, you know,
(06:48):
kittens from trees and stuff. They might have one character
who's like a dog with wheels in the back, just like in the real
world, the way the dog sometimes, you know, have wheels
as they lose their, the, the useof the back legs and this dog
with wheels can do everything that all the other dogs can do.
It can run upstairs and, and it can hop in and out of cars and
stuff like that and have no, no problem, no obstacle.
And it's, it's sort of an idealistic, you know, anything
(07:11):
you can do, I can do and an ethos that's nice for a kid to
see to say like, Oh yeah, I, I shouldn't let this stop me from
doing the things that I want to do.
I, I can do anything those otherkids can do.
And but it doesn't show the obstacles that disabled people
and that people with autism or in any affinity group, the
obstacles that, that they might encounter.
(07:32):
And so that's gets you to the third category is, is
representation with obstacle. So that's just the idea that
like, oh, in that same scenario,if the dogs helped the dog with
wheels climb the stairs and thenjust continued on their
adventure, that would then actually show the obstacle.
That's representative of the real experience of people in
(07:53):
certain affinity groups and of autistic kids in the real world.
They, they sometimes do need help or they need accommodation
or empathy and that that is partof their journey, that their
journey in life is different than people who are not parts of
those groups or do not have those particular disabilities.
And so those three different kinds of representation, I don't
have a particular judgement about any of them being good or
(08:15):
bad or better, but I do think it's important to have all of
them and have them in abundance so that you can and experience
that's appropriate to the content that lets storytellers
tell the stories they want to tell, but that also shows the
world as we know it. And, and just considering what
(08:37):
kind of representation that you are creating, if you're a
writer, I think will help you, you know, better understand what
you're making and, and how you might make some choices as you
make it. In those early formative years
of starting your work to move the needle for authentic
representation, autistic characters, how did you start
those conversations and finding collaborators and sharing your
(09:02):
heart and and your passion for this and then finding those to
go along on this journey with you.
I started by listening. I had this notion that I want to
here I was in this big entity that makes culture for kids.
How can I help steer it a littlebit?
How can I help influence it justa little bit?
(09:22):
I didn't know. So you, you start with a thesis,
you test it and then if it doesn't work, you come up with
another thesis based on the things that you've learned.
I had this idea that maybe, maybe if I could just get to the
top of that the mountain, if I could get to the big wig and get
them to write an e-mail and sendit out to the company and say,
Hey, we're going to start havingautistic characters in our
shows. Let's go, you know, and here's
(09:44):
the metric one, one year per show.
And so I started like I drafted the e-mail.
I started nosing around. I tried to, you know, the, the
people I had direct relationships with.
I, I then would sort of talk to their bosses and then to their
bosses, you know, casually and socially, like at A, at a
cocktail party or at A, at A, atan event that we had on, on the
lot and test the idea. And they all were interested in
(10:07):
the idea. But that doesn't mean that it
works. And then I got some pretty good
advice from, from somebody who knows these sorts of things.
And he said, you know, it's a, it's a great idea.
This won't work. And the reason it wouldn't work
is because writers are going to be the ones generating these
ideas. And writers are a, a particular
breed of person, particularly writers who've gone on to become
(10:28):
successful in Hollywood. They, they, it's a, it's crazy,
you know, and they can't be toldwhat to do.
So, so how do you motivate people who can't be told what to
do to do something? And that was when I was kicking
around. OK, well, then there's just the
soft sort of notion of talking about it to the right people,
(10:49):
getting it in somebody's head that like, oh, this could, this
could be a thing you could try. And even then, like, as much as
it's my 'cause everybody has a, 'cause everybody has something
that they care about. Everybody has their own
interest, but to just expect that someone would do it, to try
and be a good person is also kind of asking a little much
that's saying, will you take on my cause?
(11:12):
And, and, and, but everybody hastheir own cause.
So it was going to have to be something a little bit more than
that. And what I leaned on was
storytelling of the experiences of autistic people and the way
they might function in, in my case, fiction.
So it's thinking about the it's dangling the red meat.
(11:32):
It's saying like, oh, you know, you could have a a detective.
This is actually based on a podcast that I heard where a
woman who had written, who writes pulpy kind of detective
fiction, had written a characterwho was autistic and had been
the only person with the information of the wife who
turned up dead. And the husband is the main
suspect. And the hardscrabble detective
(11:53):
needs to get the information outof this non speaking autistic
person and starts by doing theirstandard routine of like being a
tough guy and trying to squeeze the information into somebody
that didn't work because this person did not respond to that.
And so then this detective now has to say, like what?
Gee whiz, maybe I got to do something different.
And the detective has empathy and decides to only has to solve
(12:14):
this problem of how do I get howdo I communicate with this
person? And then in fact learns and
comes to where the person is andfigures out how that person
communicates, gets the information and moves on.
So now this detective has just had like an interesting new
puzzle to solve in the context of a whole book full of puzzles
to get to the murder mystery solution.
(12:35):
And that kind of red meat, you know, for a writer might be
catnip, hopefully where they say, Oh, I, I don't write
mysteries, I write comedies. But boy, wouldn't it be
interesting to see somebody trying to interact with somebody
who's different than them and watch them, you know, model
empathy and get towards an understanding and an
accommodation so that they can achieve their comedic goals as
(12:56):
opposed to a, you know, a a mystery goal.
So that ended up being somethingthat was more impactful was
putting those stories out there to to just talk about the
stories of the things that are different between autistic kids
and their typical kids or specific experiences that your
autistic kid had that you could share that were funny or scary
(13:17):
or, you know, meaningful or sweet.
That then could be fodder for a writer who is sitting staring at
a blank page and looking for ideas.
And that that ended up being more I think effective than any
kind of top down strategy or just broad awareness.
It was targeted. It was sort of soft
(13:37):
communication like that. And that was that was sort of a
learning experience and how to figure out how to do that kind
of a thing. Just for my personal experience
and most, most times when you'retrying to to change or start
something, you have to come at it from multiple angles.
And I know one now to to help change the narrative is the
(13:57):
audience calling for representation and authenticity
and and holding studios and networks to a higher level.
And you've had the opportunity to speak at Comic Con and
Wondercon. What has been the response and
feedback from the audience The. Feedback has been terrific most
of the time with those things. I'm preaching to the choir,
(14:17):
right? If you see a big sign that says
autism in comic books and you are autistic or you have an
autistic person in your family, you are more inclined to be
drawn to that. Especially because at comic cons
right now, there's not a whole lot of Fair that addresses that
particular topic. They're they're so popular, so
many people want to do panels atUNS that it, it is hard to even
(14:39):
get one accepted. So I'm pleased that I get to,
you know, raise my voice in in opening doors and sort of bring
bringing entertainment in a panel to people who are looking
for that kind of thing. But most of the people in the
room are already on board. So it, it is really using, I try
to use those opportunities to, you know, go through my material
(14:59):
and, and show them the places where autistic people appear in
comic books so that they can know where to look and see
themselves. But also to encourage the people
in the room to leave the room and tell their stories to other
people and to talk about it in in forums and in families and in
in the non autistic groups that they're a part of.
(15:20):
That they can raise their voicesand maybe know how to articulate
these ideas so that that can impact people who aren't
thinking about autism. Because that's the people who
really need to change. How do you start those
conversations and and start connecting with those writers on
a personal level, be it for TV, film or in comics?
Yeah, I have a lot of writers now who become friends of mine
just by, to, to being out here and, and the position that I'm
(15:43):
in. And because I'm kind of noisy
about autism and in a way that makes it feel approachable, like
I'm not afraid to say the word and I'm not trying to embarrass
anybody. And I'm generally a positive
person. The people call me and they'll
say, oh, you know, I'm thinking about doing blah, blah, blah
with an autistic character. And I will, you know, help talk
to them and, and inform them, give them a little vocabulary
and stuff like that. But really what they need to do
(16:04):
is talk to somebody autistic. And there are there are autism
consultants out there, Eva Rigelhopt and is, is one of the
great ones. And Carrie Magro is another that
will help you figure this out, will help you as a writer
understand better how to authentically create an autistic
character. So I've done a panel
(16:24):
authentically creating autistic characters where I bring on
board people who have done it not not only the the aesthetic
part of the creative part of it,but also the management part of
it. Like what does it take to write
something and then talk to an executive who is a little bit
nervous about saying that we're autism or is concerned about
what will be the publics reaction to the creation of
(16:45):
autistic character in this particular context?
And autism consultants can help you navigate all that as well.
But they're out there. It's it's not an uncommon thing
to do an authenticity pass on a script.
If you've got a character in thescript who is not from a group
that is represented by the executives and by the the meter
writing staff or the writer themselves.
And so they might bring somebodyin to say, like, oh, this
(17:06):
character is from the Deep Southor this character is of a
particular race or religion or this character's autistic.
How does this fly? And then the autism consultant,
if you get an experienced one, they know how to help you solve
your problems if you have any, rather than rather than just
point them out and say this is aproblem, They'll say this is a
problem, but here's a good solution for it.
Or this is a tweak that will make it, you know, more
(17:28):
authentic or less old timey. You know, that's a concern a lot
of times with autism is that a character be created based on
like an old timey pop culture only experience.
And of course you know that as awriter that there's no better
experience than the source. Fortunately, there are plenty of
autistic people who are out there and public about it.
(17:49):
So you could either public or inyour family that you can find
who you can talk to and you can see, you know, what's what's the
experience of interacting with an autistic person and how can I
best represent that in my script?
Autism and entertainment and storylines has grown in recent
years with The Good Doctor and Atypical to just name a couple.
What have the ripple effects andpositive change been from those
(18:11):
shows in the conversations you're having?
Most people seem to be on board with the idea that the autistic
community is underrepresented inpop culture.
And figuring out ways to correctthat is, is something that is
appealing to the people who makethose kinds of decisions.
But they also need to make money.
You know, they're they're not inthis business to lose money and,
and just be a do gooder until they get kicked out and drain
(18:32):
their wallet. You know, they're trying to turn
something into a success. And so there are shows that
feature autistic, the charactersthat just like any other show,
you know, some survive and some don't.
I think the good Doctor is a is a interesting example because it
is it was very successful, ran for seven seasons.
I think 7 was the number and it probably could have gone for
(18:52):
more. It succeeded, you know, I think
it was on ABCI think it was a 10:00 show.
And it was well received by the audience because that's how, you
know, it sold ads and they kept coming back with more seasons.
So the idea that a show with a an autistic character at the
center can do well, it can only help the specific
(19:13):
representation. When Freddie Highmore was cast
10 years ago, that was a little bit before the authenticity and
casting movement really took hold.
I think if they were doing that show today, they would need to
find an autistic actor to play the role.
And that would be a little more challenging, right?
Because it's it's so hard to find somebody who's got the
right version of charisma and talent to lead a show like that,
(19:34):
to be the face of a show. It's really, it's really hard to
find that person. And if you are limiting the pool
of people that you can look at, it's going to be a little
harder. But then the good news is other
shows that show autism, like Love on the Spectrum shows a
great deal of charisma that district people can have.
And it's not necessarily just Danny Bowman.
(19:55):
It's it's that it doesn't that that charisma can come from all
different kinds of places. And that an interest in watching
somebody on TV can come from alldifferent kinds of places.
So if you combine Love in the Spectrum, which is a successful
show, and The Good Doctor, whichwas a successful show, it feels
like a tenderizes the earth a little bit and say, like, OK,
this is a little bit less scary than it would have seen before
(20:16):
those two shows. There's this sort of truism
about Hollywood, like the, the, the, the rush to be first, to be
second. You know, that when somebody
figured out if something works, then there's this rush to like,
Oh my gosh, let me get on that train.
Let me see if I can figure out how I can turn this into a
success as well. And I, I like to think that
those two shows and shows like them are vanguards to show that
(20:40):
this can work and that it is worth putting a shows and with
with artistic characters in the lead in particular into the
machine because some of them aregoing to work just like any
other kind of show, you know, might work.
I'm primarily focused on kids content because I feel like
that's where the model, the early modeling can really be
(21:02):
helpful. I think that if you're going to
watch the Good Doctor as an adult, you're probably already
primed to think kindly and apathetically about autistic
people. And I think that there are
plenty of people who do not havethat natural impulse, but that
they could be taught it at at a younger age.
So I, I hope to see this stick representation in kids pop
(21:24):
culture in everything and literally everything.
I think that it should be in theanimated shows.
It should be in the little kid animated shows, but it should
also be in video games and pop culture.
It should be in sports and any, any kind of culture that kids
consume, you know, video games, that it will have artistic
characters in it. And I think because of the
authenticity movement that has happened in the last, I don't
(21:47):
know, 5 or 10 years, that those characters will inherently be
better represented because the people who are putting the money
into it recognize the downside of not making the characters
antic of not hiring an autism consultant is a risk.
And so adding those characters, hiring those consultants and
putting out lots and lots of products in the hope that some
(22:08):
of it is good and some of it won't be good.
And it will what out says goodwill evolve as good
representations will evolve. So that there really is a such a
flood of it that it is not unusual or it's not worth having
a press release that you've got an autistic character in your
project. Yeah, for writers listening,
what would your advice be for writing and researching these
(22:28):
characters? I think that I think that
writers should be thinking aboutthe authentic experience of an
autistic person, but also their obstacles and how their
obstacles are sometimes a problem and sometimes a help.
There are many ways that it can be a help.
You know, it's it's easy to imagine that like, oh, this
character is getting a kids on an adventure and one of them's
(22:51):
autistic and one of them's kind of slowing them down because
that character keeps looking at all of the things that don't
really matter. You know, they, they, they're
the way their autism presents isthey have a hard time separating
the signal from the noise. Everything is signal.
If you imagine driving trees arenoise.
You're not paying attention to the trees because they're not in
the street. If you have a difficulty, if
your autism presents as having adifficulty separating signal
(23:12):
from noise, you are considering every single tree as a signal.
And that means that later in, inwhatever that kids adventure is,
this kid who has a hard time separating signal from the
noise. It was an obstacle earlier.
It slowed you down. And of course, you know, in
storytelling, we all need obstacles.
So that's that's actually useful.
And then when you get to, you know, the end when they're
saying like, well, then we know,we know that the person who, you
(23:34):
know, stole the linguine is was wearing yellow shoes.
And it was a kid who was autistic who couldn't separate
the signal from the noise, but remembered every little detail,
including The Who was wearing the yellow shoes that all the
other kids weren't paying attention to because it wasn't
important at the time. So you've got these ways that a
kid's, a character's autism can be both an obstacle and a help.
(23:57):
And it's the kind of thing that you need in storytelling anyway,
The So consider the idea of including an autistic person,
but then really go out and spendtime with an autistic person.
Because if you start with this thesis, like, oh, I think this
can work for my story. And here's the story point that
I think it can serve. Then if you go and meet the
autistic person, you probably will, you know, tweak your
(24:19):
notion, but it might work just fine.
And you will probably also learnmore things.
You'll learn more about the way this particular person
communicates, the way this person moves through the world,
the things that they have to think about that are different
than the things you have to think about, the things that the
people around them are, are getting, are doing and being
involved with. You'll open yourself up to a
(24:40):
kind of a world that will probably be fun to explore
because as a writer you'd probably like learning new
things and and putting new twists on familiar stories.
If you include autistic character into your romance or
into your sci-fi or into your adventure, you are potentially
feeding yourself something new and interesting that will make
(25:02):
your show better and coincidentally will probably be
good for the viewing public and their the way they grow up.
And ultimately for kids like my son and how they move through a
world that will care a little bit more about them because of
something you as a writer decided to put out there in the
world. Now, while strides are being
made in TV, not as much in comics sometimes, where often
autism is portrayed as a superpower.
(25:24):
What are those conversations in that space like, and why has it
been slower to evolve in your opinion?
Yeah, it's kind of a it's a it'sa mix of things.
In the history of comic books, which has been around for about
80 years, Stan Lee used to brag about how they were.
He had, you know, that Marvel had thousands of characters.
But even with that and all the characters there are DC Comics
and all the independent publishers, only about 30 to 40
(25:48):
in the history of comics have been explicitly autistic and
that the trajectories is evolving so that they're
starting to be more. But it's still just like
anywhere else. It's underrepresented in pop
culture. It's underrepresented in comics.
What has been good about comics is that manga and slice of life
storytelling that's become very popular with young girls right
now as a sort of as a big readerof graphic novels and comic
(26:12):
books, is that they're telling more slice of life stories and a
lot of those slice of life stories are involving autistic.
Not a lot there. There are more of those kinds of
stories than what we think of astraditionally superheroes
stories having autistic characters.
There have been a handful throughout the years.
There are somewhere they one iteration of the character is
noted as having been autistic and then gets kind of forgotten
(26:35):
and subsequent iterations of thecharacter.
If you think about all the different Superman's in the
movies that you know, Superman continually gets you, you think
about Christopher Reeve and George Reeves and and then
Brandon Rath and, and now our current guy and, and all the
other people who've played Superman in between.
It's because Superman gets reinvented for each new audience
that if you're not a comic book reader, that happens in the
(26:56):
comic books as well. And so the Superman of the 1950s
is in different kinds of storiesthan the Superman of the 1980s,
and it's in different kinds of stories than Superman now.
So as all of those iterations ofthe character evolve, there are
always opportunities to introduce new types of
characters. And I'm hoping that maybe in the
next generation we will see, or the current generation of
(27:19):
writers and the next generation of characters that they create,
that we will see more representation of autistic
characters. It's starting to happen.
If they're there, hopefully in the comic book community, they
are getting a little bit less concerned about using the word
autism. But just like any other medium,
storytelling can be pretty condensed and pretty efficient,
(27:43):
so that unless a character's autism is is central to the
story, it may not get mentioned as simply a superfluous.
But then that leaves out the opportunity to make a character
explicitly autistic. I do happen to know that there
are there are a couple coming down the Pike that I don't.
I can't imagine it has anything to do with me, but that it's
(28:05):
nice to see that there are more autistic characters coming and
more prominent autistic characters coming.
In your career, how have you seen the betrayal of authentic
characters involved and how can we as listeners help move that
needle forward? I mean, the the first movie
portrayal of autism, funny enough, was in 1970 in an Elvis
(28:25):
movie called called Change of Habit, where Mary Tyler Moore
was a nun who decided that she needed to go do her good works
in the inner city. And so she took off her habit
and put on street clothes with acouple of other nuns and they
went to a clinic. And the doctor in the clinic was
Elvis. And so it's a really silly
movie, but one of the first patients that Elvis sees in the
(28:49):
little girl who they thought might be deaf.
And the parents were perplexed. And Mary Tyler Moore says, oh, I
think maybe she's autistic. And that was the first time it
was mentioned, pop culture. And it wasn't.
It wasn't a terrible representation of autism, of all
things. Until there's a scene later in
the movie when this little autistic girl who's has a hard
time, you know, making that context and communicating and
(29:11):
picking up social cues and is actually not speaking.
As I recall, he's sitting on herstoop outside her house and
Elvis recognizes her as his patient from a long time ago.
And from a couple of doors down,he gives her a wink.
And then she uncharacteristically smiled and
and it kind of breaks her. So like Elvis's magic wink kind
(29:32):
of momentarily and then the terrible expression that cures
her autism. So that's considered a bad
representation. And you know, you think about
Rain Man Rain Man was, if you look back on it, at least on
Dustin Hoppins performance, thisis a perfectly fine
representation of autism. But it was the only one that was
out there in public that big fordecades.
(29:53):
And so a generation of people just think of autism as this one
thing. And it's the one thing is they
are socially awkward and they have superpowers.
And you'll find then that that becomes a trope.
Now, fortunately, that trope hasbeen sort of identified and
called out not only by the autism community, but by people
who don't want to tell repetitive, boring stories.
And it has been mitigated in recent years so that not all
(30:15):
autistic characters are expectedto have a superpower.
But it is still unusual or not uncommon for parents of autistic
kids to get asked, oh, what's their superpower?
And it's usually coming from a nice place.
And people are often being sweetand often don't really have a
sense of what autism is. Or the only thing they know is
what they see on TV. And it's the only thing they see
on TV is that, you know, autism means you can be a, a physicist,
(30:39):
you know, better than anybody else.
And so you're on Big Bang Theorythat is starting to to melt a
little bit. And that there's a more robust
understanding of, you know, autism, whether it's a person
who needs a little bit of help, who needs the substantial
support or who needs very substantial support, whether or
not somebody is speaking or whether or not somebody is able
to avoid self harm or whether somebody's able to move through
(31:00):
the world and, and not feel completely overwhelmed.
People are starting to understand that they're
different ways that autism expresses itself.
And you know, you meet one autistic person, you've met one
autistic person. So hopefully you know, as as it
gets more into the pop culture, people have a better
understanding of that and will not need to lean on the tropes
as much as they might have in the past.
(31:21):
You touched on this about authentic casting and and if the
good Doctor was being cast now for actors who want to play
these characters with their reallife experience, what advice or
resources would you point out? And we'll link whatever we can
in the show notes. So there there are several
casting directors who I personally know who focus on
(31:41):
that kind of representation. Melissa Berger Brennan is one of
them. Danielle Pretzfelder Demchick is
very prominent in actively trying to help disabled actors
with disabilities to get roles and to help with authentic
casting. And then there are organizations
like Spectrum Labs and Autism and Entertainment that
(32:03):
specifically focus on helping autistic young adults get into
showbiz, basically. And and so there are databases
out there and the people who care about it.
One of the the many reasons thatI wanted to have you join me on
the show and for a conversation was to talk about the autism
scene. And can you go into a little bit
more detail of what you all are working on and and what we'll be
(32:24):
launching here in a couple of weeks?
Absolutely. Well, the Autism Scene is a
nonprofit that we started earlier this year.
It's specifically designed to advocate for the inclusion of
more autistic, explicitly artistic characters in kids pop
culture. It's a lot of what we've been
talking about so far today. And one of the big initiatives
that we're doing is this winter we are holding something called
(32:45):
the Auspec Awards Competition. And the Auspec Awards
Competition is a spec script competition for kids animated
shows. So the idea is as a writer,
we're we're trying to get as many writers, especially
professional writers to submit as possible just an 11 minute
script. So it's not a huge obligation,
(33:07):
but you pick a show that's essentially an animated show
directed at kids that it currently exists that you can
write a spec script for. And the only rule is you have to
include an explicitly autistic character meaningfully
interacting with a series regular.
So that way the script will sortof show kids, buddy, you know,
(33:27):
that they're watching on TV, interacting meaningfully with an
explicitly autistic character. And the competition's going to
open on December 1st, going to be open for about two months.
And then at the end of January, January 31st, we're going to
close it. The submissions information is
all going to be on the autismscene.org is for the
Auspec Awards. the AU is sort offor autism and spec is for spec
(33:49):
script. And the goal is to get as many
people to get as many scripts circulating in Hollywood that
have well written artistic characters who fit comfortably
into a show as it exists. Not like a very special episode
of Rugrats, like a regular episode of Rugrats.
It just happens to have a character who's autistic in it.
And otherwise, it's just as funny as Rugrats always is, or
(34:09):
it's just as spooky as scooby-doo always is.
And in April to next year, you know, we will have figured out
who the various winners are. There can be a lot of different
categories of winter, you know, funniest script, best autistic
new character, best script for young kids, best use of an AAC
device which is for a non speaking autistic person.
(34:30):
They might have a device that lets them communicate with
people like an iPad that's specially designed for their
use. And then the grand prize will be
a $5000 grand prize. And each of the category winners
will get a meeting with somebodywho could meaningfully hire
them. They're going to, it's going to
be people who are managers at places like Verve and and Gersh
(34:53):
and Gotham Group. They're going to be also some of
the prizes are going to be showrunners.
So people who are currently running shows or who are the
people who hire writers for shows like Monster High or the
Avatar cartoon or Hello Kitty orLego Friends, There are lots of
different kinds of animated shows that are out there that
(35:15):
where you could find work or youcould up your work game and meet
somebody who you've wanted to meet for a while.
And you can maybe meet them justby entering this competition and
putting in a script that's good enough that that goes on the
way. And then we'll have, you know,
the awards ceremony where we maybe do a reading, a stage
reading of some of the the winning scripts with experienced
(35:36):
animation talent Who names that you would recognize people who
I've worked with through my career at Nickelodeon, Warner
Brothers Animation gotten to know a little bit and people who
just kind of want to get together and rub elbows with
people who do the stuff that they do.
Managers and executives are always looking for new writers,
but they don't want to have to go through the slush pile.
That's what this competition is going to do.
(35:57):
We're going to figure out how toprovide a service for executives
by connecting talented writers with executives and showrunners
who are looking to hire people. And in the process, I've sort of
managed to sneak in a couple autistic characters to hopefully
normalize it among the executives and make it more
popular fodder for writers so that there can be more autistic
(36:18):
kids in more artistic charactersin kids pop culture going
forward. So that's the hope.
That's the the Auspec Awards. And I encourage anybody who's a
writer out there to look into it.
It's a $25 fees, which is short,much smaller than most of the
script competition fees. It's mostly going to be just
used to, you know, put some money in the pot or the prize
(36:38):
winner and to pay the readers and to cover expenses.
But it's to also show that it can succeed and that maybe it's
worth doing again next year and finding a way to, you know, in
my particular case, activate my Rolodex so that I can get people
from here to there where they want to take, where they want to
go with their career, where theywant to go with their projects
in a way that also helps people who need a little bit of help in
(37:01):
in the autistic, in the autism community.
Have you started to see the change you hoped in pop culture
and and how he is embraced whether it be at school or or
just at the grocery store? Yeah, I mean, there's there's
definitely a movement right now what what they'll call
inclusion. To see it in pop culture is also
(37:25):
really nice. My son is keyed into it.
He has seen most of the presentations.
His sister, my my daughter is onthe panel sometimes where she
talks about the young adult comic book stuff that she has
run interviews with one of the writers, which was really fun.
She spoke at Wundercon and ComicCon this year on the panels,
which was really great. She was in costume both times,
(37:47):
Lex Luthor most recently, which he was really proud of.
And our son is relatively aware of it.
But the, the nice thing about it, I think is that he because
of the way we communicate about autism around the house and
this, these kinds of projects and being noisy about it.
And him seeing the word autism on the flyer, which he's very
(38:07):
interested in and, and, and the in the PowerPoint deck, which
he's very interested in, it normalizes the notion of autism
for him. I think that hopefully he can
grow up and as he gets a better understanding of what autism is
and, and how his autism expresses itself and how it
differentiates him from neotypical people and what that
means. And that that it won't feel to
(38:29):
him like something out of the ordinary, that it is just
another part of life. You know, sometimes people need
a little help getting something from the high shelf, and
sometimes people need a little help scooting their seat back so
they can fit in the car. And sometimes people need a
little help communicating. And that's just part of life,
not just for him, but for everybody.
And so he, I think, is getting the sense of himself as just
(38:54):
another flavor of life rather than something that is outside
of ordinary life. As we wind down, I would love to
hear any memorable characters orstorylines and and
representations of autism that were really meaningful to you.
What a fun question. Yeah, there were a lot that were
(39:16):
great. I I researched the history of
the representation of explicitlyartistic characters in comics
and there was one that that really stood out to me when I
found it. It was a, you know, Archie
comics like Archie and Veronica and Betty.
These these sort of so, so as itturns out, that intellectual
property is and a lot of different kinds of treatments.
You know, there's there's the comic books that you're thinking
(39:38):
of and maybe the cartoon show from a long time ago.
But then there's also been Riverdale, which was like kind
of a spooky tween show. And they've taken those
characters and tried to, you know, use them just like any
other intellectual property to see what kind of what kind of
medium is it going to? What kind of genre is it going
to work in? And there's a version by Carol
Brown Ahmed in the Archie universe where the Archie kids
(39:59):
are in their young 20s. So it's sort of like friends,
you know, that kind of ethos. And it's, it's a, it's a web
comic called Big Ethel Energy. And Veronica is sort of like a
Paris Hilton character, right, where she's, she's rich and she
only dates models and race car drivers and, and, and, and
rappers and what not. And, and she is, is a name
(40:19):
dropper and she's really rich and she's, you know, keeps
getting her heart broken and being unsatisfied.
So she throws her hands up near one day and says, fine, I'm
going to not, I'm not going to do any of that anymore.
I'm going to have a real life. I'm going to go get a job and
I'm just going to, you know, meet normal people and, and
forget about all that other, youknow, the, the glitz and glamour
stuff. And so she does, she starts a
party planning company and they need to hire an environmental
(40:42):
guy to, you know, make sure theydo put in the tent in the right
place or whatever. And of course he shows up and
he's Mr. Pretty boy and, and, and, and so she's gets all lit
up about him and she starts like, you know, bobbing her, put
her hand on her hair and, and, and dropping names and, and
using all of her, her charms that have worked on, you know,
models and rappers and rock stars and stuff.
(41:02):
And it doesn't work on this guy.He's not interested and yet he
really likes her. And she knows that he likes her
but is not taken by any of that artificial stuff.
And so she is perplexed by this because no one has ever liked
her for who she is. They only seem to be drawn to,
you know, all of the, the, the, the makeup and the, and the, and
the flirtations and stuff like that.
So she is suddenly feels really uncomfortable and this guy
(41:25):
really likes her. But it turns out, you know, he
doesn't know how to act with herat all and doesn't want to blow
it. So he asked his friend for
advice and and his friend puts him in kind of a seer in a
situation. And it turns out, of course,
that this guy is autistic. And that's the reason he is not
really picking up on her social cues and doesn't know how to
respond in kind. So he gets help from his friend
(41:46):
who says like, oh, yeah, we're Veronica's going to be at the
diner. And he's like, oh, OK, that's
nice. I've already eaten.
I'll see you guys later. And he says no, no, no, Veronica
is gonna be at the diner. He's like yeah, yeah, I know you
told me I'm not hungry so I'm gonna go.
So Veronica is gonna be that youshould go so that you can be
with Veronica. You don't have to eat now I get
(42:06):
thank you. Okay, got it.
And he is the friend is feeding him blind and Veronica finds
out, of course and is bummed outlike why is this guy?
Why can't he do so they have a confrontation?
Why can't you talk for yourself?Why do you have to have so and
so tell you what to say? And he's and he is so frustrated
and he says fine. And you know, I'm, I'm autistic
and I don't know what people arethinking and I have a hard time
(42:27):
with social cues. And now that you know, you know,
you could just forget about it and you don't have to see me
anymore. And I understand, you know.
And she says, well, wait a minute, you don't know what
other people are thinking. How do you know I don't like
you? And that's the beginning of
their romance. And I just thought that that was
so cute and fun. And I talked to the writer about
it, Carol Brown Ahmed. And she said that what she had
(42:47):
done was she kind of plotted outthe course that she wanted to
take Veronica on, where she would try and meet a normal guy.
What would it be like for Veronica to date a normal guy?
And so she created this character in her mind.
And over the course of creating this character and thinking
about it, she got her own adult diagnosis of autism, which is
actually fairly common, especially among women who
aren't diagnosed with autism as well and who tend to mask better
(43:09):
because they have to mask in society anyway.
Then she says, well, let me justmake this character explicitly
autistic and see where that goes.
And it opened up a whole different kind of character and
a whole different kind of relationship in a tried and
true, very predictable type of genre in this, you know, sort of
bubbly, frothy romance like. And she managed to find a new
way to tell a fun story that happened to include an
(43:32):
explicitly artistic character. So I thought that was a really
fun way of knowing that every genre and every medium in every
art form can bear the, the, the,the addition of explicitly
artistic characters and still remain true to the form and not
feel like a very special episode.
You know, it was a, it was a normal fun episode of big Ethel
energy, a normal storyline that just happened to have an
(43:53):
autistic character who fits verynicely into the story.
And I thought that that was, that was really cool.
It's it's a super cute story, but it's also fun that it
worked. It has been a joy to hear about
your personal connection to yourwork and and all that you are
are doing and the ripple effectsand the movement that is
happening. Last question we ask everyone on
(44:16):
the podcast is what is one thingyou wish you'd go back and tell
your younger self? That everything's going to be
OK. Whatever it is, it's going to be
OK. I spend a lot of time worrying
about things and striving for things that ultimately weren't
that important. And if I had just relaxed a
little bit and understood that, you know, things are going to be
OK, things are going to work outjust enough that maybe not
(44:38):
exactly the way that you'd imagine, but you'll find your
way. I think that's something that
that I would have, I, I don't know that it would have even
changed all that much, but it would have eased my mind a
little bit. And I, I think that's what I
would have said. Also, Laura, I want, you know,
you've said such kind words to me.
I want to say some to you. I really enjoy listening to your
podcast and how thoughtful you are and the places that you go
(44:59):
with, with people who are especially working in showbiz.
It's nice to, to see people talkthoughtfully about their work
and the kinds of things they're trying to do with it and not
just the promotional voices thatwe often hear from our showbiz
friends. So it's, it's really nice to
that you're doing this with yourpodcast and, and getting to know
(45:20):
people and the kinds of motivations they have and the
work that they want to do and how they feel.
It's, it's, it's a really fun podcast.
I'm glad I got to be a part of it.
Oh, thank you so much, Brett. It was a joy to chat with you.
Thank you so much for joining. What's my frame today?
Hi, everyone. Thanks for listening and being
the absolute best part of our creative community here at
What's My Frame? If you'd like to learn more
(45:41):
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame?
To stay in the know for upcomingevents, I'm your host, Laura
Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.
Hi everyone. Today on What's My Frame, I'm
Jamie Britton Payne. Britt takes us through his
career from entertainment attorney to this year starting
the Autism Scene, a nonprofit advocating for the inclusion of
explicitly autistic characters in kids pop culture.
Britt shares his powerful work moving the needle for
authentically creating autistic characters and shares how you
can get involved in this Winnersall Spec awards animated script
(00:25):
competition putting autistic characters in the spotlight.
Now let's get to the conversation.
Hey Brett, welcome to What's My Frame?
How you doing? I'm doing great.
It's so nice to see you. Would you mind just starting us
off with your creative back story, your business creative
back story and your journey intothe industry?
(00:46):
And then we'll start diving intosome project specific stuff.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I went to law school
late in life. I was a director in New York
City doing all kinds of writing and theater and sketch comedy
stuff and went to law school late and practiced law in New
York City for I think it was about 8 or 9 years about that.
And then wanted to move. Started, had started a family.
(01:09):
So I wanted to, you know, live somewhere else and ended up
getting a job at Warner BrothersAnimation as an attorney.
It was my first job in showbiz and then after that I worked in
Nickelodeon for about 60 years. And during that time, actually
just before moving to LA to workfor Warner Brothers, my son got
diagnosed with autism. At about about 18 months is when
(01:31):
they first found that there was something that we needed to look
into. And we got the formal diagnosis
maybe a year or two later. And so that has sort of been
formed my career a little bit. And, you know, getting into in
showbiz and that and as working as somebody, as somebody working
in the industry. I also found that there were
(01:51):
things that I wanted to do, you know, with, with my Rolodex.
And given that my son was autistic and I could see sort of
how the world was that he was going to be entering.
And even the one that he was already in at his elementary
school was, was working that that there are ways that I
thought maybe I could try and motivate people to influence
(02:11):
that. But the better so he could, he
could be his best self and be ina world that that understands
him a little bit better. So as part of being in showbiz,
just as a lawyer, I'm also trying to push for more
explicitly autistic characters in kids pop culture so that kids
can have another way of learningabout their peers who are
(02:32):
autistic and, and better understanding and having better
empathy and, and modeling the kind of behavior that we we hope
to see from the world as it it interacts with our autistic
friends and family and strangersin the world around us.
Yeah, now I, I think so often when someone is personally or,
(02:54):
or a loved one is personally affected by something and their,
their trajectory in life is different.
People go one of two ways. They either go in and they
hunker down and, and focus on their core unit, or they try to
have this ripple effect and theytry to work outwardly and, and
help as many people as possible.And I'm curious, what was that
(03:15):
motivator? What was it within you that made
you want to change the narrative?
It's a really interesting question.
It's something that parents of special needs kids think about a
lot earlier than their parents think about.
When you get a diagnosis like that for your kid, you
(03:35):
immediately start thinking abouttheir launch into the world.
How can I best prepare my son inthis case, I can best prepare my
child and launch into the world because it was going to, we knew
at that point it was going to take a lot of work and it was
going to be a different path. And it wasn't something that
maybe we could take for granted the way we do with our daughter.
(03:56):
You know, that that, oh, she's progressing without these
particular kinds of obstacles. And we, we were, we would notice
that we were starting to think about things.
My wife and I were starting to think about things at an
extraordinarily young age that other parents don't think about
until the kid is 17 or the kid is 22 or the kid is 25.
(04:18):
You know, we had to think about it right away.
And especially because you don'tknow that your child's going to
be able to live independently depending on what their
circumstances. So that means that very early
on, you're thinking about the world that you have to launch
them into. And I think I think that's a
somewhat common for parents of special needs kids and parents
(04:38):
of autistic kids is thinking about like, OK, well, I'm not
going to be able to be here forever.
And, and hopefully they're goingto have a long and happy and
healthy life, but how can I bestprepare them for that?
And so the hunker down that you're describing is what you do
with your own kid. But then this out we're looking
thinking is if you have, we all can impact the world.
And sometimes you can impact in a small way and you're in just
(05:00):
your, in your community and sometimes you have access to
something, it sends a broader message and, and impacts the
broader world. And the fact that I'm, you know,
sitting here in Hollywood and, and have access to these kinds
of things means that like, well,all right, I, I have this social
capital of some sort. You know, I know people who are
involved in this process in the creative way and can make things
(05:20):
happen that that reach millions and millions of people.
What can I do, you know, to nudge things in a direction that
I think would be helpful for my son and people like him?
Could you explain the three different types of
representation and how we as an audience take in that
representation? Yeah, some of this comes from
the Geena Davis study. It was a really interesting
(05:41):
study of representation in pop culture and specifically in kids
pop culture. It was a presentation that I got
to see at Nickelodeon. It was tremendous.
And among the things they talkedabout were the the nature of
representation, the different kinds of representation, whether
it's a gender or race or disability in the case that I'm
interested in. And the 333 forms of
(06:03):
representation, at least that I've sort of been able to
whittle it down to is 1 is codedrepresentation.
Then there's explicit representation without obstacle
and explicit representation withobstacle.
The coded representation is like, you know what's going on
here, but the word is just not put to it though.
For example, Big Bang Theory, you know, you can watch that
(06:25):
show. I'm sure those, some of those
guys are almost certainly autistic, but my understanding
is they never use the word and it it is just coded.
And then there's explicit representation with obstacle
without obstacle. Excuse me.
So that's like an example of that is like in a, in a kids
cartoon show with anthropomorphic dogs that go out
and, you know, put out fires and, and, and rescue, you know,
(06:48):
kittens from trees and stuff. They might have one character
who's like a dog with wheels in the back, just like in the real
world, the way the dog sometimes, you know, have wheels
as they lose their, the, the useof the back legs and this dog
with wheels can do everything that all the other dogs can do.
It can run upstairs and, and it can hop in and out of cars and
stuff like that and have no, no problem, no obstacle.
And it's, it's sort of an idealistic, you know, anything
(07:11):
you can do, I can do and an ethos that's nice for a kid to
see to say like, Oh yeah, I, I shouldn't let this stop me from
doing the things that I want to do.
I, I can do anything those otherkids can do.
And but it doesn't show the obstacles that disabled people
and that people with autism or in any affinity group, the
obstacles that, that they might encounter.
(07:32):
And so that's gets you to the third category is, is
representation with obstacle. So that's just the idea that
like, oh, in that same scenario,if the dogs helped the dog with
wheels climb the stairs and thenjust continued on their
adventure, that would then actually show the obstacle.
That's representative of the real experience of people in
(07:53):
certain affinity groups and of autistic kids in the real world.
They, they sometimes do need help or they need accommodation
or empathy and that that is partof their journey, that their
journey in life is different than people who are not parts of
those groups or do not have those particular disabilities.
And so those three different kinds of representation, I don't
have a particular judgement about any of them being good or
(08:15):
bad or better, but I do think it's important to have all of
them and have them in abundance so that you can and experience
that's appropriate to the content that lets storytellers
tell the stories they want to tell, but that also shows the
world as we know it. And, and just considering what
(08:37):
kind of representation that you are creating, if you're a
writer, I think will help you, you know, better understand what
you're making and, and how you might make some choices as you
make it. In those early formative years
of starting your work to move the needle for authentic
representation, autistic characters, how did you start
those conversations and finding collaborators and sharing your
(09:02):
heart and and your passion for this and then finding those to
go along on this journey with you.
I started by listening. I had this notion that I want to
here I was in this big entity that makes culture for kids.
How can I help steer it a littlebit?
How can I help influence it justa little bit?
(09:22):
I didn't know. So you, you start with a thesis,
you test it and then if it doesn't work, you come up with
another thesis based on the things that you've learned.
I had this idea that maybe, maybe if I could just get to the
top of that the mountain, if I could get to the big wig and get
them to write an e-mail and sendit out to the company and say,
Hey, we're going to start havingautistic characters in our
shows. Let's go, you know, and here's
(09:44):
the metric one, one year per show.
And so I started like I drafted the e-mail.
I started nosing around. I tried to, you know, the, the
people I had direct relationships with.
I, I then would sort of talk to their bosses and then to their
bosses, you know, casually and socially, like at A, at a
cocktail party or at A, at A, atan event that we had on, on the
lot and test the idea. And they all were interested in
(10:07):
the idea. But that doesn't mean that it
works. And then I got some pretty good
advice from, from somebody who knows these sorts of things.
And he said, you know, it's a, it's a great idea.
This won't work. And the reason it wouldn't work
is because writers are going to be the ones generating these
ideas. And writers are a, a particular
breed of person, particularly writers who've gone on to become
(10:28):
successful in Hollywood. They, they, it's a, it's crazy,
you know, and they can't be toldwhat to do.
So, so how do you motivate people who can't be told what to
do to do something? And that was when I was kicking
around. OK, well, then there's just the
soft sort of notion of talking about it to the right people,
(10:49):
getting it in somebody's head that like, oh, this could, this
could be a thing you could try. And even then, like, as much as
it's my 'cause everybody has a, 'cause everybody has something
that they care about. Everybody has their own
interest, but to just expect that someone would do it, to try
and be a good person is also kind of asking a little much
that's saying, will you take on my cause?
(11:12):
And, and, and, but everybody hastheir own cause.
So it was going to have to be something a little bit more than
that. And what I leaned on was
storytelling of the experiences of autistic people and the way
they might function in, in my case, fiction.
So it's thinking about the it's dangling the red meat.
(11:32):
It's saying like, oh, you know, you could have a a detective.
This is actually based on a podcast that I heard where a
woman who had written, who writes pulpy kind of detective
fiction, had written a characterwho was autistic and had been
the only person with the information of the wife who
turned up dead. And the husband is the main
suspect. And the hardscrabble detective
(11:53):
needs to get the information outof this non speaking autistic
person and starts by doing theirstandard routine of like being a
tough guy and trying to squeeze the information into somebody
that didn't work because this person did not respond to that.
And so then this detective now has to say, like what?
Gee whiz, maybe I got to do something different.
And the detective has empathy and decides to only has to solve
(12:14):
this problem of how do I get howdo I communicate with this
person? And then in fact learns and
comes to where the person is andfigures out how that person
communicates, gets the information and moves on.
So now this detective has just had like an interesting new
puzzle to solve in the context of a whole book full of puzzles
to get to the murder mystery solution.
(12:35):
And that kind of red meat, you know, for a writer might be
catnip, hopefully where they say, Oh, I, I don't write
mysteries, I write comedies. But boy, wouldn't it be
interesting to see somebody trying to interact with somebody
who's different than them and watch them, you know, model
empathy and get towards an understanding and an
accommodation so that they can achieve their comedic goals as
(12:56):
opposed to a, you know, a a mystery goal.
So that ended up being somethingthat was more impactful was
putting those stories out there to to just talk about the
stories of the things that are different between autistic kids
and their typical kids or specific experiences that your
autistic kid had that you could share that were funny or scary
(13:17):
or, you know, meaningful or sweet.
That then could be fodder for a writer who is sitting staring at
a blank page and looking for ideas.
And that that ended up being more I think effective than any
kind of top down strategy or just broad awareness.
It was targeted. It was sort of soft
(13:37):
communication like that. And that was that was sort of a
learning experience and how to figure out how to do that kind
of a thing. Just for my personal experience
and most, most times when you'retrying to to change or start
something, you have to come at it from multiple angles.
And I know one now to to help change the narrative is the
(13:57):
audience calling for representation and authenticity
and and holding studios and networks to a higher level.
And you've had the opportunity to speak at Comic Con and
Wondercon. What has been the response and
feedback from the audience The. Feedback has been terrific most
of the time with those things. I'm preaching to the choir,
(14:17):
right? If you see a big sign that says
autism in comic books and you are autistic or you have an
autistic person in your family, you are more inclined to be
drawn to that. Especially because at comic cons
right now, there's not a whole lot of Fair that addresses that
particular topic. They're they're so popular, so
many people want to do panels atUNS that it, it is hard to even
(14:39):
get one accepted. So I'm pleased that I get to,
you know, raise my voice in in opening doors and sort of bring
bringing entertainment in a panel to people who are looking
for that kind of thing. But most of the people in the
room are already on board. So it, it is really using, I try
to use those opportunities to, you know, go through my material
(14:59):
and, and show them the places where autistic people appear in
comic books so that they can know where to look and see
themselves. But also to encourage the people
in the room to leave the room and tell their stories to other
people and to talk about it in in forums and in families and in
in the non autistic groups that they're a part of.
(15:20):
That they can raise their voicesand maybe know how to articulate
these ideas so that that can impact people who aren't
thinking about autism. Because that's the people who
really need to change. How do you start those
conversations and and start connecting with those writers on
a personal level, be it for TV, film or in comics?
Yeah, I have a lot of writers now who become friends of mine
just by, to, to being out here and, and the position that I'm
(15:43):
in. And because I'm kind of noisy
about autism and in a way that makes it feel approachable, like
I'm not afraid to say the word and I'm not trying to embarrass
anybody. And I'm generally a positive
person. The people call me and they'll
say, oh, you know, I'm thinking about doing blah, blah, blah
with an autistic character. And I will, you know, help talk
to them and, and inform them, give them a little vocabulary
and stuff like that. But really what they need to do
(16:04):
is talk to somebody autistic. And there are there are autism
consultants out there, Eva Rigelhopt and is, is one of the
great ones. And Carrie Magro is another that
will help you figure this out, will help you as a writer
understand better how to authentically create an autistic
character. So I've done a panel
(16:24):
authentically creating autistic characters where I bring on
board people who have done it not not only the the aesthetic
part of the creative part of it,but also the management part of
it. Like what does it take to write
something and then talk to an executive who is a little bit
nervous about saying that we're autism or is concerned about
what will be the publics reaction to the creation of
(16:45):
autistic character in this particular context?
And autism consultants can help you navigate all that as well.
But they're out there. It's it's not an uncommon thing
to do an authenticity pass on a script.
If you've got a character in thescript who is not from a group
that is represented by the executives and by the the meter
writing staff or the writer themselves.
And so they might bring somebodyin to say, like, oh, this
(17:06):
character is from the Deep Southor this character is of a
particular race or religion or this character's autistic.
How does this fly? And then the autism consultant,
if you get an experienced one, they know how to help you solve
your problems if you have any, rather than rather than just
point them out and say this is aproblem, They'll say this is a
problem, but here's a good solution for it.
Or this is a tweak that will make it, you know, more
(17:28):
authentic or less old timey. You know, that's a concern a lot
of times with autism is that a character be created based on
like an old timey pop culture only experience.
And of course you know that as awriter that there's no better
experience than the source. Fortunately, there are plenty of
autistic people who are out there and public about it.
(17:49):
So you could either public or inyour family that you can find
who you can talk to and you can see, you know, what's what's the
experience of interacting with an autistic person and how can I
best represent that in my script?
Autism and entertainment and storylines has grown in recent
years with The Good Doctor and Atypical to just name a couple.
What have the ripple effects andpositive change been from those
(18:11):
shows in the conversations you're having?
Most people seem to be on board with the idea that the autistic
community is underrepresented inpop culture.
And figuring out ways to correctthat is, is something that is
appealing to the people who makethose kinds of decisions.
But they also need to make money.
You know, they're they're not inthis business to lose money and,
and just be a do gooder until they get kicked out and drain
(18:32):
their wallet. You know, they're trying to turn
something into a success. And so there are shows that
feature autistic, the charactersthat just like any other show,
you know, some survive and some don't.
I think the good Doctor is a is a interesting example because it
is it was very successful, ran for seven seasons.
I think 7 was the number and it probably could have gone for
(18:52):
more. It succeeded, you know, I think
it was on ABCI think it was a 10:00 show.
And it was well received by the audience because that's how, you
know, it sold ads and they kept coming back with more seasons.
So the idea that a show with a an autistic character at the
center can do well, it can only help the specific
(19:13):
representation. When Freddie Highmore was cast
10 years ago, that was a little bit before the authenticity and
casting movement really took hold.
I think if they were doing that show today, they would need to
find an autistic actor to play the role.
And that would be a little more challenging, right?
Because it's it's so hard to find somebody who's got the
right version of charisma and talent to lead a show like that,
(19:34):
to be the face of a show. It's really, it's really hard to
find that person. And if you are limiting the pool
of people that you can look at, it's going to be a little
harder. But then the good news is other
shows that show autism, like Love on the Spectrum shows a
great deal of charisma that district people can have.
And it's not necessarily just Danny Bowman.
(19:55):
It's it's that it doesn't that that charisma can come from all
different kinds of places. And that an interest in watching
somebody on TV can come from alldifferent kinds of places.
So if you combine Love in the Spectrum, which is a successful
show, and The Good Doctor, whichwas a successful show, it feels
like a tenderizes the earth a little bit and say, like, OK,
this is a little bit less scary than it would have seen before
(20:16):
those two shows. There's this sort of truism
about Hollywood, like the, the, the, the rush to be first, to be
second. You know, that when somebody
figured out if something works, then there's this rush to like,
Oh my gosh, let me get on that train.
Let me see if I can figure out how I can turn this into a
success as well. And I, I like to think that
those two shows and shows like them are vanguards to show that
(20:40):
this can work and that it is worth putting a shows and with
with artistic characters in the lead in particular into the
machine because some of them aregoing to work just like any
other kind of show, you know, might work.
I'm primarily focused on kids content because I feel like
that's where the model, the early modeling can really be
(21:02):
helpful. I think that if you're going to
watch the Good Doctor as an adult, you're probably already
primed to think kindly and apathetically about autistic
people. And I think that there are
plenty of people who do not havethat natural impulse, but that
they could be taught it at at a younger age.
So I, I hope to see this stick representation in kids pop
(21:24):
culture in everything and literally everything.
I think that it should be in theanimated shows.
It should be in the little kid animated shows, but it should
also be in video games and pop culture.
It should be in sports and any, any kind of culture that kids
consume, you know, video games, that it will have artistic
characters in it. And I think because of the
authenticity movement that has happened in the last, I don't
(21:47):
know, 5 or 10 years, that those characters will inherently be
better represented because the people who are putting the money
into it recognize the downside of not making the characters
antic of not hiring an autism consultant is a risk.
And so adding those characters, hiring those consultants and
putting out lots and lots of products in the hope that some
(22:08):
of it is good and some of it won't be good.
And it will what out says goodwill evolve as good
representations will evolve. So that there really is a such a
flood of it that it is not unusual or it's not worth having
a press release that you've got an autistic character in your
project. Yeah, for writers listening,
what would your advice be for writing and researching these
(22:28):
characters? I think that I think that
writers should be thinking aboutthe authentic experience of an
autistic person, but also their obstacles and how their
obstacles are sometimes a problem and sometimes a help.
There are many ways that it can be a help.
You know, it's it's easy to imagine that like, oh, this
character is getting a kids on an adventure and one of them's
(22:51):
autistic and one of them's kind of slowing them down because
that character keeps looking at all of the things that don't
really matter. You know, they, they, they're
the way their autism presents isthey have a hard time separating
the signal from the noise. Everything is signal.
If you imagine driving trees arenoise.
You're not paying attention to the trees because they're not in
the street. If you have a difficulty, if
your autism presents as having adifficulty separating signal
(23:12):
from noise, you are considering every single tree as a signal.
And that means that later in, inwhatever that kids adventure is,
this kid who has a hard time separating signal from the
noise. It was an obstacle earlier.
It slowed you down. And of course, you know, in
storytelling, we all need obstacles.
So that's that's actually useful.
And then when you get to, you know, the end when they're
saying like, well, then we know,we know that the person who, you
(23:34):
know, stole the linguine is was wearing yellow shoes.
And it was a kid who was autistic who couldn't separate
the signal from the noise, but remembered every little detail,
including The Who was wearing the yellow shoes that all the
other kids weren't paying attention to because it wasn't
important at the time. So you've got these ways that a
kid's, a character's autism can be both an obstacle and a help.
(23:57):
And it's the kind of thing that you need in storytelling anyway,
The So consider the idea of including an autistic person,
but then really go out and spendtime with an autistic person.
Because if you start with this thesis, like, oh, I think this
can work for my story. And here's the story point that
I think it can serve. Then if you go and meet the
autistic person, you probably will, you know, tweak your
(24:19):
notion, but it might work just fine.
And you will probably also learnmore things.
You'll learn more about the way this particular person
communicates, the way this person moves through the world,
the things that they have to think about that are different
than the things you have to think about, the things that the
people around them are, are getting, are doing and being
involved with. You'll open yourself up to a
(24:40):
kind of a world that will probably be fun to explore
because as a writer you'd probably like learning new
things and and putting new twists on familiar stories.
If you include autistic character into your romance or
into your sci-fi or into your adventure, you are potentially
feeding yourself something new and interesting that will make
(25:02):
your show better and coincidentally will probably be
good for the viewing public and their the way they grow up.
And ultimately for kids like my son and how they move through a
world that will care a little bit more about them because of
something you as a writer decided to put out there in the
world. Now, while strides are being
made in TV, not as much in comics sometimes, where often
autism is portrayed as a superpower.
(25:24):
What are those conversations in that space like, and why has it
been slower to evolve in your opinion?
Yeah, it's kind of a it's a it'sa mix of things.
In the history of comic books, which has been around for about
80 years, Stan Lee used to brag about how they were.
He had, you know, that Marvel had thousands of characters.
But even with that and all the characters there are DC Comics
and all the independent publishers, only about 30 to 40
(25:48):
in the history of comics have been explicitly autistic and
that the trajectories is evolving so that they're
starting to be more. But it's still just like
anywhere else. It's underrepresented in pop
culture. It's underrepresented in comics.
What has been good about comics is that manga and slice of life
storytelling that's become very popular with young girls right
now as a sort of as a big readerof graphic novels and comic
(26:12):
books, is that they're telling more slice of life stories and a
lot of those slice of life stories are involving autistic.
Not a lot there. There are more of those kinds of
stories than what we think of astraditionally superheroes
stories having autistic characters.
There have been a handful throughout the years.
There are somewhere they one iteration of the character is
noted as having been autistic and then gets kind of forgotten
(26:35):
and subsequent iterations of thecharacter.
If you think about all the different Superman's in the
movies that you know, Superman continually gets you, you think
about Christopher Reeve and George Reeves and and then
Brandon Rath and, and now our current guy and, and all the
other people who've played Superman in between.
It's because Superman gets reinvented for each new audience
that if you're not a comic book reader, that happens in the
(26:56):
comic books as well. And so the Superman of the 1950s
is in different kinds of storiesthan the Superman of the 1980s,
and it's in different kinds of stories than Superman now.
So as all of those iterations ofthe character evolve, there are
always opportunities to introduce new types of
characters. And I'm hoping that maybe in the
next generation we will see, or the current generation of
(27:19):
writers and the next generation of characters that they create,
that we will see more representation of autistic
characters. It's starting to happen.
If they're there, hopefully in the comic book community, they
are getting a little bit less concerned about using the word
autism. But just like any other medium,
storytelling can be pretty condensed and pretty efficient,
(27:43):
so that unless a character's autism is is central to the
story, it may not get mentioned as simply a superfluous.
But then that leaves out the opportunity to make a character
explicitly autistic. I do happen to know that there
are there are a couple coming down the Pike that I don't.
I can't imagine it has anything to do with me, but that it's
(28:05):
nice to see that there are more autistic characters coming and
more prominent autistic characters coming.
In your career, how have you seen the betrayal of authentic
characters involved and how can we as listeners help move that
needle forward? I mean, the the first movie
portrayal of autism, funny enough, was in 1970 in an Elvis
(28:25):
movie called called Change of Habit, where Mary Tyler Moore
was a nun who decided that she needed to go do her good works
in the inner city. And so she took off her habit
and put on street clothes with acouple of other nuns and they
went to a clinic. And the doctor in the clinic was
Elvis. And so it's a really silly
movie, but one of the first patients that Elvis sees in the
(28:49):
little girl who they thought might be deaf.
And the parents were perplexed. And Mary Tyler Moore says, oh, I
think maybe she's autistic. And that was the first time it
was mentioned, pop culture. And it wasn't.
It wasn't a terrible representation of autism, of all
things. Until there's a scene later in
the movie when this little autistic girl who's has a hard
time, you know, making that context and communicating and
(29:11):
picking up social cues and is actually not speaking.
As I recall, he's sitting on herstoop outside her house and
Elvis recognizes her as his patient from a long time ago.
And from a couple of doors down,he gives her a wink.
And then she uncharacteristically smiled and
and it kind of breaks her. So like Elvis's magic wink kind
(29:32):
of momentarily and then the terrible expression that cures
her autism. So that's considered a bad
representation. And you know, you think about
Rain Man Rain Man was, if you look back on it, at least on
Dustin Hoppins performance, thisis a perfectly fine
representation of autism. But it was the only one that was
out there in public that big fordecades.
(29:53):
And so a generation of people just think of autism as this one
thing. And it's the one thing is they
are socially awkward and they have superpowers.
And you'll find then that that becomes a trope.
Now, fortunately, that trope hasbeen sort of identified and
called out not only by the autism community, but by people
who don't want to tell repetitive, boring stories.
And it has been mitigated in recent years so that not all
(30:15):
autistic characters are expectedto have a superpower.
But it is still unusual or not uncommon for parents of autistic
kids to get asked, oh, what's their superpower?
And it's usually coming from a nice place.
And people are often being sweetand often don't really have a
sense of what autism is. Or the only thing they know is
what they see on TV. And it's the only thing they see
on TV is that, you know, autism means you can be a, a physicist,
(30:39):
you know, better than anybody else.
And so you're on Big Bang Theorythat is starting to to melt a
little bit. And that there's a more robust
understanding of, you know, autism, whether it's a person
who needs a little bit of help, who needs the substantial
support or who needs very substantial support, whether or
not somebody is speaking or whether or not somebody is able
to avoid self harm or whether somebody's able to move through
(31:00):
the world and, and not feel completely overwhelmed.
People are starting to understand that they're
different ways that autism expresses itself.
And you know, you meet one autistic person, you've met one
autistic person. So hopefully you know, as as it
gets more into the pop culture, people have a better
understanding of that and will not need to lean on the tropes
as much as they might have in the past.
(31:21):
You touched on this about authentic casting and and if the
good Doctor was being cast now for actors who want to play
these characters with their reallife experience, what advice or
resources would you point out? And we'll link whatever we can
in the show notes. So there there are several
casting directors who I personally know who focus on
(31:41):
that kind of representation. Melissa Berger Brennan is one of
them. Danielle Pretzfelder Demchick is
very prominent in actively trying to help disabled actors
with disabilities to get roles and to help with authentic
casting. And then there are organizations
like Spectrum Labs and Autism and Entertainment that
(32:03):
specifically focus on helping autistic young adults get into
showbiz, basically. And and so there are databases
out there and the people who care about it.
One of the the many reasons thatI wanted to have you join me on
the show and for a conversation was to talk about the autism
scene. And can you go into a little bit
more detail of what you all are working on and and what we'll be
(32:24):
launching here in a couple of weeks?
Absolutely. Well, the Autism Scene is a
nonprofit that we started earlier this year.
It's specifically designed to advocate for the inclusion of
more autistic, explicitly artistic characters in kids pop
culture. It's a lot of what we've been
talking about so far today. And one of the big initiatives
that we're doing is this winter we are holding something called
(32:45):
the Auspec Awards Competition. And the Auspec Awards
Competition is a spec script competition for kids animated
shows. So the idea is as a writer,
we're we're trying to get as many writers, especially
professional writers to submit as possible just an 11 minute
script. So it's not a huge obligation,
(33:07):
but you pick a show that's essentially an animated show
directed at kids that it currently exists that you can
write a spec script for. And the only rule is you have to
include an explicitly autistic character meaningfully
interacting with a series regular.
So that way the script will sortof show kids, buddy, you know,
(33:27):
that they're watching on TV, interacting meaningfully with an
explicitly autistic character. And the competition's going to
open on December 1st, going to be open for about two months.
And then at the end of January, January 31st, we're going to
close it. The submissions information is
all going to be on the autismscene.org is for the
Auspec Awards. the AU is sort offor autism and spec is for spec
(33:49):
script. And the goal is to get as many
people to get as many scripts circulating in Hollywood that
have well written artistic characters who fit comfortably
into a show as it exists. Not like a very special episode
of Rugrats, like a regular episode of Rugrats.
It just happens to have a character who's autistic in it.
And otherwise, it's just as funny as Rugrats always is, or
(34:09):
it's just as spooky as scooby-doo always is.
And in April to next year, you know, we will have figured out
who the various winners are. There can be a lot of different
categories of winter, you know, funniest script, best autistic
new character, best script for young kids, best use of an AAC
device which is for a non speaking autistic person.
(34:30):
They might have a device that lets them communicate with
people like an iPad that's specially designed for their
use. And then the grand prize will be
a $5000 grand prize. And each of the category winners
will get a meeting with somebodywho could meaningfully hire
them. They're going to, it's going to
be people who are managers at places like Verve and and Gersh
(34:53):
and Gotham Group. They're going to be also some of
the prizes are going to be showrunners.
So people who are currently running shows or who are the
people who hire writers for shows like Monster High or the
Avatar cartoon or Hello Kitty orLego Friends, There are lots of
different kinds of animated shows that are out there that
(35:15):
where you could find work or youcould up your work game and meet
somebody who you've wanted to meet for a while.
And you can maybe meet them justby entering this competition and
putting in a script that's good enough that that goes on the
way. And then we'll have, you know,
the awards ceremony where we maybe do a reading, a stage
reading of some of the the winning scripts with experienced
(35:36):
animation talent Who names that you would recognize people who
I've worked with through my career at Nickelodeon, Warner
Brothers Animation gotten to know a little bit and people who
just kind of want to get together and rub elbows with
people who do the stuff that they do.
Managers and executives are always looking for new writers,
but they don't want to have to go through the slush pile.
That's what this competition is going to do.
(35:57):
We're going to figure out how toprovide a service for executives
by connecting talented writers with executives and showrunners
who are looking to hire people. And in the process, I've sort of
managed to sneak in a couple autistic characters to hopefully
normalize it among the executives and make it more
popular fodder for writers so that there can be more autistic
(36:18):
kids in more artistic charactersin kids pop culture going
forward. So that's the hope.
That's the the Auspec Awards. And I encourage anybody who's a
writer out there to look into it.
It's a $25 fees, which is short,much smaller than most of the
script competition fees. It's mostly going to be just
used to, you know, put some money in the pot or the prize
(36:38):
winner and to pay the readers and to cover expenses.
But it's to also show that it can succeed and that maybe it's
worth doing again next year and finding a way to, you know, in
my particular case, activate my Rolodex so that I can get people
from here to there where they want to take, where they want to
go with their career, where theywant to go with their projects
in a way that also helps people who need a little bit of help in
(37:01):
in the autistic, in the autism community.
Have you started to see the change you hoped in pop culture
and and how he is embraced whether it be at school or or
just at the grocery store? Yeah, I mean, there's there's
definitely a movement right now what what they'll call
inclusion. To see it in pop culture is also
(37:25):
really nice. My son is keyed into it.
He has seen most of the presentations.
His sister, my my daughter is onthe panel sometimes where she
talks about the young adult comic book stuff that she has
run interviews with one of the writers, which was really fun.
She spoke at Wundercon and ComicCon this year on the panels,
which was really great. She was in costume both times,
(37:47):
Lex Luthor most recently, which he was really proud of.
And our son is relatively aware of it.
But the, the nice thing about it, I think is that he because
of the way we communicate about autism around the house and
this, these kinds of projects and being noisy about it.
And him seeing the word autism on the flyer, which he's very
(38:07):
interested in and, and, and the in the PowerPoint deck, which
he's very interested in, it normalizes the notion of autism
for him. I think that hopefully he can
grow up and as he gets a better understanding of what autism is
and, and how his autism expresses itself and how it
differentiates him from neotypical people and what that
means. And that that it won't feel to
(38:29):
him like something out of the ordinary, that it is just
another part of life. You know, sometimes people need
a little help getting something from the high shelf, and
sometimes people need a little help scooting their seat back so
they can fit in the car. And sometimes people need a
little help communicating. And that's just part of life,
not just for him, but for everybody.
And so he, I think, is getting the sense of himself as just
(38:54):
another flavor of life rather than something that is outside
of ordinary life. As we wind down, I would love to
hear any memorable characters orstorylines and and
representations of autism that were really meaningful to you.
What a fun question. Yeah, there were a lot that were
(39:16):
great. I I researched the history of
the representation of explicitlyartistic characters in comics
and there was one that that really stood out to me when I
found it. It was a, you know, Archie
comics like Archie and Veronica and Betty.
These these sort of so, so as itturns out, that intellectual
property is and a lot of different kinds of treatments.
You know, there's there's the comic books that you're thinking
(39:38):
of and maybe the cartoon show from a long time ago.
But then there's also been Riverdale, which was like kind
of a spooky tween show. And they've taken those
characters and tried to, you know, use them just like any
other intellectual property to see what kind of what kind of
medium is it going to? What kind of genre is it going
to work in? And there's a version by Carol
Brown Ahmed in the Archie universe where the Archie kids
(39:59):
are in their young 20s. So it's sort of like friends,
you know, that kind of ethos. And it's, it's a, it's a web
comic called Big Ethel Energy. And Veronica is sort of like a
Paris Hilton character, right, where she's, she's rich and she
only dates models and race car drivers and, and, and, and
rappers and what not. And, and she is, is a name
(40:19):
dropper and she's really rich and she's, you know, keeps
getting her heart broken and being unsatisfied.
So she throws her hands up near one day and says, fine, I'm
going to not, I'm not going to do any of that anymore.
I'm going to have a real life. I'm going to go get a job and
I'm just going to, you know, meet normal people and, and
forget about all that other, youknow, the, the glitz and glamour
stuff. And so she does, she starts a
party planning company and they need to hire an environmental
(40:42):
guy to, you know, make sure theydo put in the tent in the right
place or whatever. And of course he shows up and
he's Mr. Pretty boy and, and, and, and so she's gets all lit
up about him and she starts like, you know, bobbing her, put
her hand on her hair and, and, and dropping names and, and
using all of her, her charms that have worked on, you know,
models and rappers and rock stars and stuff.
(41:02):
And it doesn't work on this guy.He's not interested and yet he
really likes her. And she knows that he likes her
but is not taken by any of that artificial stuff.
And so she is perplexed by this because no one has ever liked
her for who she is. They only seem to be drawn to,
you know, all of the, the, the, the makeup and the, and the, and
the flirtations and stuff like that.
So she is suddenly feels really uncomfortable and this guy
(41:25):
really likes her. But it turns out, you know, he
doesn't know how to act with herat all and doesn't want to blow
it. So he asked his friend for
advice and and his friend puts him in kind of a seer in a
situation. And it turns out, of course,
that this guy is autistic. And that's the reason he is not
really picking up on her social cues and doesn't know how to
respond in kind. So he gets help from his friend
(41:46):
who says like, oh, yeah, we're Veronica's going to be at the
diner. And he's like, oh, OK, that's
nice. I've already eaten.
I'll see you guys later. And he says no, no, no, Veronica
is gonna be at the diner. He's like yeah, yeah, I know you
told me I'm not hungry so I'm gonna go.
So Veronica is gonna be that youshould go so that you can be
with Veronica. You don't have to eat now I get
(42:06):
thank you. Okay, got it.
And he is the friend is feeding him blind and Veronica finds
out, of course and is bummed outlike why is this guy?
Why can't he do so they have a confrontation?
Why can't you talk for yourself?Why do you have to have so and
so tell you what to say? And he's and he is so frustrated
and he says fine. And you know, I'm, I'm autistic
and I don't know what people arethinking and I have a hard time
(42:27):
with social cues. And now that you know, you know,
you could just forget about it and you don't have to see me
anymore. And I understand, you know.
And she says, well, wait a minute, you don't know what
other people are thinking. How do you know I don't like
you? And that's the beginning of
their romance. And I just thought that that was
so cute and fun. And I talked to the writer about
it, Carol Brown Ahmed. And she said that what she had
(42:47):
done was she kind of plotted outthe course that she wanted to
take Veronica on, where she would try and meet a normal guy.
What would it be like for Veronica to date a normal guy?
And so she created this character in her mind.
And over the course of creating this character and thinking
about it, she got her own adult diagnosis of autism, which is
actually fairly common, especially among women who
aren't diagnosed with autism as well and who tend to mask better
(43:09):
because they have to mask in society anyway.
Then she says, well, let me justmake this character explicitly
autistic and see where that goes.
And it opened up a whole different kind of character and
a whole different kind of relationship in a tried and
true, very predictable type of genre in this, you know, sort of
bubbly, frothy romance like. And she managed to find a new
way to tell a fun story that happened to include an
(43:32):
explicitly artistic character. So I thought that was a really
fun way of knowing that every genre and every medium in every
art form can bear the, the, the,the addition of explicitly
artistic characters and still remain true to the form and not
feel like a very special episode.
You know, it was a, it was a normal fun episode of big Ethel
energy, a normal storyline that just happened to have an
(43:53):
autistic character who fits verynicely into the story.
And I thought that that was, that was really cool.
It's it's a super cute story, but it's also fun that it
worked. It has been a joy to hear about
your personal connection to yourwork and and all that you are
are doing and the ripple effectsand the movement that is
happening. Last question we ask everyone on
(44:16):
the podcast is what is one thingyou wish you'd go back and tell
your younger self? That everything's going to be
OK. Whatever it is, it's going to be
OK. I spend a lot of time worrying
about things and striving for things that ultimately weren't
that important. And if I had just relaxed a
little bit and understood that, you know, things are going to be
OK, things are going to work outjust enough that maybe not
(44:38):
exactly the way that you'd imagine, but you'll find your
way. I think that's something that
that I would have, I, I don't know that it would have even
changed all that much, but it would have eased my mind a
little bit. And I, I think that's what I
would have said. Also, Laura, I want, you know,
you've said such kind words to me.
I want to say some to you. I really enjoy listening to your
podcast and how thoughtful you are and the places that you go
(44:59):
with, with people who are especially working in showbiz.
It's nice to, to see people talkthoughtfully about their work
and the kinds of things they're trying to do with it and not
just the promotional voices thatwe often hear from our showbiz
friends. So it's, it's really nice to
that you're doing this with yourpodcast and, and getting to know
(45:20):
people and the kinds of motivations they have and the
work that they want to do and how they feel.
It's, it's, it's a really fun podcast.
I'm glad I got to be a part of it.
Oh, thank you so much, Brett. It was a joy to chat with you.
Thank you so much for joining. What's my frame today?
Hi, everyone. Thanks for listening and being
the absolute best part of our creative community here at
What's My Frame? If you'd like to learn more
(45:41):
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame?
To stay in the know for upcomingevents, I'm your host, Laura
Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.
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