May 19, 2025 • 36 mins
JJ, Mattson, and Alec dive into a comprehensive exposition on the film "The Deer Hunter," a cinematic exploration that delves into the profound and harrowing effects of the Vietnam War on a group of friends from a small Pennsylvania steel town. The conversation commences with a juxtaposition of youthful appearances of renowned actors such as Robert De Niro, Christopher Walken, and Meryl Streep, highlighting the striking contrasts to their later careers. We engage in a critical analysis of the film's narrative structure, which some find convoluted, particularly in its pacing and transitions, as it oscillates between scenes of domestic life and the stark realities of war. Central to the discourse is the film's unflinching portrayal of the psychological trauma inflicted upon soldiers, emphasizing that it eschews romanticized depictions of warfare in favor of a more somber and realistic narrative. Ultimately, we conclude with personal reflections on the film's emotional weight, acknowledging its artistic merits while also expressing reservations regarding its length and editing choices, thus inviting listeners to contemplate the complexities inherent in war cinema.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And then Christopher Walken.
Never, ever seen him thatyoung before.
Never.
He has a lot.
He had a lot of hair.
He.
I mean, he's a good lookingold guy.
But I was like, okay, makes sense.
Like, I've never seen him.
I don't even know if I've seenmovies of him before.
He was like, really old.
(00:25):
Welcome to the what's Alreadypodcast where we fashion ourselves
cinematic judge and Jerry.
My name is J.J.
crowder.
I'm here with my co host Matt and.
Better red than dead Alec Burgess.
Let's get it.
We appreciate you tuning in.
Go and hit that.
Follow subscribe.
Like bell notification buttons.
Tell a friend about us.
Tell a family member about us.
(00:47):
Look, I.
I feel like I'm repeatingmyself because I am, but tell a Vietnam
War vet about us.
Or just an avid hunter about us.
That works too.
Yeah.
We're kicking off week threeof war movies.
It is week three, right?
Or am I?
We.
Yeah, three.
Yeah.
(01:07):
Yeah.
Wow.
Week three of war movies.
This week we're running into deer.
The deer Hunter, releasedFebruary 23, 1979.
It was written and directed byMichael Simoneau.
I've never gotten his name right.
And we'll say Michael Simoneau.
And it stars Robert De Niro,Christopher Walken, John Cazale,
(01:31):
John Savage, Meryl Streep,George Zunza, Chuck Asperger, Shirley
Stoller, Britannia Alda, andRichard Kuss.
It is about an in depthexamination of the ways in which
the Vietnam War impacts anddisrupts the lives of several friends
in a small steel mill town in Pennsylvania.
(01:52):
That's a very broad synopsis,but I guess it works.
Yeah.
So week three, this was my choice.
This is my.
It's my one and only choice inthis podcast, is that again this
month where I've only got one.
Thank goodness.
Yeah, you wouldn't have likedmy other pick either.
(02:13):
Yeah, this movie.
Look, this movie really kindof messed with me when I was younger.
Like, this is one of the firstwar movies.
Like I.
I remember watching.
What got me to watch thismovie is I was on a Robert De Niro
kick.
One of my favorite movies ofall time is Heat.
(02:34):
And it.
It gets me, like every time Iwatch it.
I'm like, now I want to watchall of Robert De Niro films.
So I watch Raging Bull and I watch.
So I went on this kick oflike, very old school Robert De Niro
films.
And I was like, watched allthe major ones and I was like, look,
there's this movie, Deer Hunter.
This looks weird.
And then I start watching It.
And I'm like, holy, this movieis rough.
(02:56):
Like, it is heavy and dark andthere is little to no joy to be found
in this movie.
But I find it to be amasterclass in acting and character
development and.
And just drama from start to finish.
(03:16):
And I think the part thatreally catches me is like, the fact
that it's.
It's said and I don't know,but it's said that it's one of the
most accurate depictions oflike, the impact of war, especially
the.
The Vietnam.
Vietnam War.
And like, how it really justchanged people that went.
(03:38):
And look, not to diminish orlike, everybody has their own experiences,
but I think of the wars, like,war in general is going to change.
We know that.
Like, we've seen.
We have enough proof of thatin our country from vets coming home
from all wars being justchanged and going through stuff,
(03:58):
right?
But I think, like, watchingthis movie, like, I can't even fathom,
like, it just makes me verygrateful that I won, as stupid as
this sounds, had back surgerythat kept me from going into the
military that I like.
I had planned to go to themilitary academy when I was younger.
And I mean, I had all the waygone up to be applying for one before
(04:20):
I had my first car.
My car accident that drove meto surgery, which pulled me out of
what I wanted to be able to do.
So anyway, you know, and thento not have to go to war and see
these atrocities outside oflike, in something like this.
But like, yeah, this movie's crazy.
So whenever I think of warmovies, this is one of the first
ones that I think of.
(04:41):
And it partially because ofthe acting and, you know, the cinematography,
to me is fantastic, but alsobecause it, to me, it doesn't like.
Grant, like, what am I tryingto say?
It doesn't make war seem cool.
It doesn't make being asoldier seem like a fun thing to
(05:06):
do.
Right.
Again, I think a lot of timeswar movies, not all of them, but
a lot of them will like, makeit look like this great, wonderful,
grand thing.
And while it's something thathappens and it's important and I'm
grateful for our servicepeople that have fought in wars,
for what our country is andcan be and has been.
But geez, man, like, thismovie does not give you anything
(05:30):
that makes me go, hey, I wanna.
I wanna go sign up for that.
So anyway, I just love this movie.
It is very long.
I will.
Three hours is a long movie period.
And this one, because it'scharacter driven and very dialogue
Heavy feels every bit of three hours.
But I just, I'm alwaysinfatuated by what's going on on
(05:53):
the screen with this.
So anyway, that's me, Matson.
Poo poo it.
And then I'm here.
Curious to hear about Alec.
Yeah, I mean, I don't thinkI'm a poo poo as much.
I mean I'm, I'm on brand for amovie that's really long.
I think would I like thismovie a lot more if they edited out
45 minutes and still, which Iknow it's character driven.
(06:14):
I think there's some areasthat they could have snipped a little
bit.
What I've liked maybe more.
Sure.
But what I will take away fromthis movie probably more than anything
is one.
Never seen Robert Downey Jr.
Or, sorry, Robert De Niro.
At least the movies I've seenhim in his goatee.
I just wasn't prepared for that.
I was.
And, and to be honest, Ihaven't seen many movies.
(06:35):
He was, this is the youngest,I think I'd seen him in a movie because
I've seen him in some ones.
I knew he was younger, but Iwas taken away.
I was like, I've never seenhim this young.
So one, I was like, oh, whoa.
And then Christopher Walken,never, ever seen him that young before.
Never.
He has a lot, he had a lot of hair.
He, I mean he's a good lookingold guy.
But I was like, okay, makes sense.
(06:57):
Like I've never seen him.
I don't even know if I've seenmovies of him before.
He was like really old.
That blew me away.
Never seen Meryl Streep thatyoung before as well.
I do like a double takebecause I was like, oh, that is her.
Because I was like, this can'tbe heard says it's her, but it's
her.
And so that was fun to see.
(07:17):
Some really amazing actorsthat I don't know if this movie was
their big break or they werejust still building a lot in their
career.
But I mean, for that alone, Iknew this movie is going to be good
because I mean those are someof the best actors that you can find
out.
You name all that.
There's some other really goodpeople in this movie.
The scene, the Russianroulette scene, I mean, that'll stick
(07:40):
with me.
I, I think of all the scenesin the movie, for me that was the
most riveting because therewas tension.
I mean, action.
But it also told.
I mean there's, I looked it upafter there's no confirmed thing
in history that this actually,like things like this happened from
Viet Cong.
It doesn't mean it didn'thappen, obviously, but I think they
(08:01):
took something dramatic toshow that obviously these prison
camps, they were not fun.
They were anything but closeto fun.
And I thought they picked aninteresting way to depict the tensions
of basically having to choose.
Are you gonna live?
Is your friend gonna die?
Like, how.
Like if just.
I mean, the chase sceneafterwards, trying to get in the
helicopter.
(08:22):
What happened to Steve?
Like, just.
I mean, that whole.
I don't know what that was,like 20 or 30 minutes.
I mean, that was awesome.
That was like.
I was to take like a mini movie.
I probably would go back andwatch that part.
That was really exceptional.
Just you could feel it.
And then even I'll tack on that.
(08:45):
The restroom.
That scene I was talking aboutis when they were POWs.
But then you take it to thevery end of the moon, like almost
the climax.
Getting close to it, basicallywhen he goes back to try and save
Christopher Walking'scharacter, which.
Why the.
What was his name?
Nick.
Yes.
And that was also like thebuild up, the.
The last little bit, the buildup to that.
(09:06):
And then actually when ithappened, like, man, like, my goodness.
As well.
Incredible to watch.
I wish the movie would haveended more around there.
Like it then it had kind of aslow roll to the finish for me.
And that's kind of the lastpoint for me.
This movie is so long andthere's so many.
Like, there's the.
The build up to going to warand like seeing their friendship
(09:27):
and the marriage.
The hunting.
I think I could have donewithout almost every hunting scene
because they showed, like, youcould have snipped a lot of the time
there.
And then there's the Vietnamscenes and then there's like the
post war scenes.
And I think the Vietnam andpost war scenes, I pretty much liked
(09:47):
all of it.
It was the build up.
I know why they did it, but Idon't know.
Like, I was sitting therewatching and I kept asking myself,
like, is it because I.
I'm distracted while watchingthis or do I need to, like, restart
this?
I just didn't feel like I wasinvolved as much with these characters
as I.
I wanted to be until they gotto Vietnam.
(10:09):
And I don't know why that was.
Like, I found myself at times,like, confused and like, wait, this
is a hunting trip?
Like, when are they going to war?
Like, there's all.
I think it was so dialogueheavy for me at times that I.
I got A little sidetracked,and then it got more on script.
I think I just kept thinking,like, when's.
When's the war part cominginto this?
And then I was like, oh, this is.
(10:30):
This is that.
So maybe it was just a.
An expectation on my part thatit wasn't as obvious, but it took
me out a little bit and tookme a long time to kind of to settle
into this movie.
But once I did, it's a goodmovie, but it is.
It's long.
And it's not like a.
(10:51):
It's not like a.
Like a.
It's hard to say, like, do Iwant to watch this again?
I mean, for those couple ofscenes, but, man, it's.
It's.
It's like watching AmericanSniper, which I recently rewatched
again.
I remember I was quicklyreminded why I didn't watch that
movie for a very long time,because it felt like a funeral when
I finished it again.
And this movie has verysimilar vibes.
(11:12):
It's not like you don't comeout feeling real good.
You're like, oh, so all thatto say it's long.
It's a very interesting movie.
But it took me a while to getinto it.
But once I did, there werescenes that were riveting.
Yeah.
All right, Alec, your turn.
This one's tricky because Idon't have a problem with, like,
(11:36):
length or slow burn.
Yeah.
But what really gets me iswhen transitions are jarring and
you go like, snap, snap, snap, snap.
So all of a sudden we're at awedding, and then it, like, cuss,
and we're in Vietnam.
But it's not like basictraining, going to Vietnam.
It's not on the helicopter onyour way over to Vietnam.
(11:58):
It's.
Mike's in a ditch, you know,hiding or just waking up from what
was almost a little death nap.
And so.
And that's the trick.
And then almost like you getfive minutes of, okay, he's in Vietnam
trying to figure it out, big reunion.
And then all of a suddenthey're in a prison camp.
And so the, like, thetransitions in between the sequences
(12:22):
got me to be like, how do weget here?
And now all of a sudden I'mlike, where's the draw?
Draw the line.
Give me a little bit of backstory.
Give me a little bit of thehow we got here.
Because the first, like, hourof this movie, even the 45 minute
long wedding scene, issomething that I'm okay with.
And it's.
It's building this character.
(12:43):
You know, it's a.
It's you know, kind of tellingthe story about these guys, everything
like that.
And then all of a sudden it'slike, oh, it's like they remembered,
oh, shoot, we're actuallymaking a movie here.
Tick tock, tick tock.
We're on the clock.
And, you know, throwingVietnam, throwing this.
And then, you know, it's the.
You get.
It's just a weird one for mebecause it's, it's these little spikes
(13:04):
and there's no backstory forme to even kind of figure out how
we got to this point afterstarting off the movie.
And I'm like, okay, character driven.
Slow burn.
I got this.
This is my jam.
What?
There's a rat in the cage.
And so it, it pulled me out,but not in the way that I normally
get pulled out movies.
It pulled me out to just belike, what the fuck is going on?
(13:27):
And so, I mean, if that wasthe intended goal, like, psychologically,
shit messed me up because Iwas constantly going, what?
What am I watching?
When I was actually rewindingsequences to be like, did I miss
something?
Like, did I just fall asleepfor 10 minutes and miss something?
I understand what was going on.
It's like, nope, that's justthe way it float.
And so I actually probablytook five hours to watch this movie.
(13:53):
But, I mean, I liked it, butthere was parts of it where I was
sitting there going, I.
I missed something.
Someone uploaded.
I mean, that's basicallyprobably what happened to me.
And I didn't spend the extratwo hours to fully.
Yeah.
Recalibrate myself.
I was like, wait a minute, Imissed something.
Somebody uploaded a fractionof this and they pulled out a very
(14:13):
key scene to the story.
But no, that's just the way itwas made.
So it was on the frustratingside for a little bit because I was
like, what's going on?
What's happening?
But it was good.
I mean, I liked it.
I don't think I could watch itagain for those reasons, but I enjoyed
it.
Yeah.
And there's a reason that youdon't hear about Michael Camino,
(14:34):
Cimino, whatever the hell hisname is.
Like, this isn't a guy that he.
He made this movie and it hithome really hard.
Won a ton of Oscars, includingit kicked off Meryl Streep's record
breaking run of Oscar winsbecause she.
This was her first Oscar inthe supporting role.
(14:55):
And then she won like forKramer versus Kramer the next year.
She won like five years in arow or some.
Like, she's insane.
But this was her first onethis kicked her off, and she does
a great job.
And it did.
You know, Robert De Niro wasso worried about the controversy
around this film that heactually didn't even go to the Oscars.
(15:15):
Like, he.
He was like, can I sit backstage?
And the Oscars are like, nope.
And he's like, it.
I'll stay home.
And he stayed home and watchedit from TV because he was so worried
about it.
But, yeah, like, it won a ton,and it did well.
And then he's just not.
Because his film making.
And I'm with you.
His editing.
The editing is horrendous.
(15:35):
But I.
There's like.
It's also like eight hours offilm is what, like.
And he is.
He has a hard time editinghimself because I'm with you.
Like, there's a lot of thingsthat should have been edited differently
or cut differently or, youknow, if you're gonna do it.
Like, the jump cuts were hard.
So I.
I definitely agree with that.
(15:55):
And really, I always look at it.
It's almost like three moviesin one.
Three, really three shortfilms that are all tied into one
movie.
So it's really interesting.
But there's a lot of weirdthat went on in this, like, the filming
in this movie.
Like, so when they're doingthe Russian roulette scene in the
prison camp, like, theslapping was real.
(16:19):
Like, they were getting theslapped out of them to the point
that the actors were getting pissed.
And they were like, switchads, of course, to the scene.
But De Niro wanted thatbecause he wanted it to be believable.
Yeah, De Niro asked for a lotof things.
He also.
In the one where he does it to the.
The guy.
I can.
Can't think of his name, thecharacter name, but the guy from
(16:40):
the.
The little brother for.
Or the older brother from theGod Bless America.
What's the movie now?
I'm trying to think of, too,from the Godfather, the guy with
the mustache and the greasy hair.
So when he does that one athome and, like, he.
Michael forces him into it.
Like, there was a live roundin that gun that was by Robert De
(17:03):
Niro's demand.
And the guy playing the othercharacter agreed to it.
Never fought it, but he was.
He was, like, obsessivelychecking the cartridge, like, making
sure that the.
The bullet wasn't in there allthe time, I guess.
Which I'm like, no, like.
But he wanted.
I guess for Dairo, it wasabout the real nervousness of the
(17:26):
fact that even though they setit up to never have it be the real
bullet like, it's there, andyou have.
You know what I mean?
So.
Yeah.
Apparently, cuckoo.
That's a.
Maybe put a blank in there,doesn't it?
Like, I don't know about that.
I.
I didn't know this as well,but I guess he was younger then.
He did the.
He actually did the jump outof the.
(17:47):
The helicopter as well.
And so he did a little Tom Cruise.
Yeah.
In fact, they were saying itwas something like 15 times.
He had.
They.
He and that other guy had tojump out of that because directors
are weird.
Yeah.
I mean, it makes sense.
When this dude puts in enoughof the nature scenes, I'm like, am
I watching, like, NationalGeographic or, like, am I watching
(18:08):
a movie?
And I'm like, look, dude, Iappreciate a good view, but I've
seen, like, 20 scenes of this.
Like, maybe just speed it up just.
Just a tad bit.
Like, come on now.
Yeah, that stuff got to be.
I was like, all right, dude, Iknow this movie's long.
I don't need 10 minutes ofseeing the countryside.
Like, you gotta just, like,advance it.
Yeah, yeah.
(18:29):
I mean, there's some seriousstuff that you're like, why is this
in here?
Like, I'm okay with all thescenes that have dialogue or the
ones that are showing Michaelwhere he'd prefer to be really kind
of alone and.
Yeah.
You know, doing his thing.
But I.
Yeah, the, like, random shotsof, like, nothing but driving by
the forest or empty forest shots.
It's like, what the hell arewe doing here?
(18:51):
Well, this guy, he got so.
The director got so big forhis britches.
I was texting JJ about this acouple years later.
He made, apparently one of themost colossal movie flops in history
called Heaven's Gate, where,because this movie was so successful,
he basically was handed the.
The creative licensing to doevery and anything that he deemed
(19:11):
fit.
And as we've already seen,talking about this movie, he made
some questionable decisions.
That movie, he basically,like, as I understand, overshot,
took way too.
Like, the movie is alreadyover budget, like, a couple days
in, already behind schedule,like, on the first day, and just
got worse and worse and worseand worse.
(19:32):
So I think this guy found thelightning in a bottle with this movie
one because he just hadamazing actors that saved him and
the subject matter.
But I think he.
He's clearly not that good ofa director.
Yeah, I can't.
I don't even know anythingelse that he's done.
Like, I.
And I don't.
Like.
I mean, I looked it up when Iwas getting ready for this movie
(19:54):
and look at.
But I don't remember anythingeven after looking it up.
Like, if you hadn't just toldme it was Heaven's Gate, I wouldn't
remember, like.
But, yeah, he's.
It's obviously got lucky.
Made a good movie, had somereally good actors that, like you
said, kind of carried it through.
But, yeah, like, the other onethat really happened in this was
(20:17):
so the director convincedChristopher Walken to spit in De
Niro's face in that final.
And De Niro didn't know it wascoming, which is why, like, the hesitation
and the look on his face.
And he almost walked off setbefore because of it.
And, like, I guess, like, thedirector at some point was like,
they were talking about it,and he's like, yeah, Christopher
(20:37):
Watkins got balls, dude.
I would have punched him inthe face.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, that's one of thosethings where you're like, oh, damn.
He actually spit on him anddidn't know it was coming.
That's rough.
But that seemed to me, like.
I love that as a.
As the climax of this filmwhen he goes back to get Nick.
(21:01):
And, like, Nick is just broken and.
And making all this moneydoing the, like, reliving probably
the most traumatic moment ofhis life that, like, he was forced
into by Mike to a certain degree.
Right.
Like, to help the escape plan.
And, like, just watching thatand then watching the guilt that
(21:23):
Mike has over the fact thatNick doesn't come out of this thing.
Right.
Right.
So it's.
I love that moment.
As sad and rough and difficultas it is to watch.
Like, I think that's one ofthose moments when you're just like
this.
There's no way this ends well.
And then I love.
The other thing that I love isthey don't try to, like, fix it.
(21:45):
Right.
Like, we see this moment, thenwe see the funeral, then it's, you
know, his friends, like,crying in their eggs, you know, as
he's trying to, like, makedinner or make breakfast and whatever
it is.
And then it just ends.
And I'm like, that's how amovie like this should end.
You shouldn't try to make me.
There's nothing to feel good about.
(22:06):
What happens in this film andthe fact that they don't try to bring
it back and make you leave onthis high note.
Like, you leave going, thatwas up.
That whole thing was up.
I.
I love that.
As hard as it is to watch andthat, like I said, this is like,
the third time I've everwatched this movie.
Because it's like, it puts mein a funk for the rest of the day
(22:27):
after I watch it.
Because it's hard to watch.
It's.
It's hard to, like, at leastfor me, like, sit and watch that
and then go through it andthen, like, try.
I start thinking about, like,well, how would I have handled a
situation like that?
Like, who would I have been?
Like, I probably would havebeen the dude that couldn't, you
know, do whatever and gothimself freaking thrown out in the
(22:51):
box with the rats and the wall.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's just like, man,it's just rough.
That's why I was happy Iwatched American Sniper.
Because I'll never forgetwalking out of that movie theater
was the quietest a movietheater's ever been.
And I would imagine if I couldhave seen this movie in theaters,
it would have been a verysimilar feeling.
And this movie, like, AmericanSniper, he.
(23:13):
It ends when you see that guy,and then it flashes to black and
you're like, oh, I knew he was.
I remember that movie.
I knew he was gonna die.
Like, I think I knew he wasgonna die.
I just didn't know he wasgonna die.
Right, like, there.
Yeah.
And the fact that they didn'teven show it and then you got the.
Your typical black screen.
(23:33):
I was like, damn.
Like, damn.
He really went out like that.
Like, after all that, thenthis movie, very similar vibe where
you're just like, damn.
Like, it's not really any wayyou can come back from that.
You're just trying to pick upthe pieces and live a very broken
life after that.
And his buddy Stevie, like,he's in a wheelchair for the rest
(23:56):
of his life.
Mike's wants to be alone, butclearly very messed up and not getting
the therapy he needs in the 70s.
He's just gonna limp along tothe rest of.
And anyone else that was.
You just know it's just notgoing to be good.
So I like, it's.
This movie would have beenabsolutely horrible if they tried
to find some silver lining,because then.
(24:17):
Then we would never bewatching this movie.
I do appreciate movies that do that.
But for that matter, like,we're saying, like, I don't know,
the next time I'll be watchingAmerican Sniper or the next time
I'll be watching this moviebecause just, yeah, I'm not gonna
go to war.
This movie makes me want tostay far away from it.
(24:38):
So.
So it should be committed for that.
But our listening audience,like, yeah, is it worth the watch?
Absolutely.
But maybe, like, haveSomething happy planned after.
Yeah.
If you're in a bad place,don't watch this movie.
Not a good way to not gonna.
(24:58):
Not go.
Maybe.
Maybe it's that there'ssomeone's always got it worse than
you, but.
Yeah, I mean, there are somecatharsis sometimes in situations
like that, but I don'trecommend it.
It gets rough.
It's rough.
Had either of you seen thisbefore or is this the first?
I was gonna say you knew Ididn't see this.
Yeah, I figured you hadn't.
(25:19):
I didn't know Alec, though,because with this movie, you know,
doing some cinema.
Cinema classes and stuffbefore, like, sometimes this one
makes it in those.
I.
I'd seen parts, but not all inone sitting.
Yeah, they intentionally shootthis more gritty, like in the filming
of it.
It has like.
It doesn't look as crisp.
(25:40):
I don't like a 70s movie.
Yeah, I don't think so.
I just don't think it's everbeen remastered.
Like, I don't think anybodywant is like sitting around going,
we should do a remasteredversion of the Deer Hunter.
Because I think there's also.
Back in the day, like whenthis came out, like, it was praised
as, you know, top of its fieldtype movie, won a ton of Oscars,
(26:01):
things like that.
Now I don't think it's lookedat as the same.
Like, it's still highly rated and.
But it's not like people go,this is like a masterpiece of a movie
that you should go check outbecause of the things that we're
talking about.
So I don't know that anybody'sever been like, we're gonna remaster
Deer Hunter and maybe that'llmake people feel a little less.
I think if someone could goback and re edit it.
(26:23):
Sure.
I think it could be a.
This is like a prime especially.
They'll have a little footage.
Take one of those talenting.
Take one of those talentededitors and rehash this.
I think they make the moviebetter, probably be shorter and make
more sense.
Yeah, no, I agree.
I agree.
Yeah, it needs an edit.
Like, no doubt.
Like, I think you couldreally, to be honest with you, I
(26:46):
think you could cut out mostof the first.
I agree.
Of the.
The wedding scene.
Like, look, I like a lot of itor not a lot of it.
I like some of it because youhave to have the introduction to
the characters.
But I think you could have theintroduction of the characters be
the hunting scene.
Like, you know what I mean?
Because you get the same thingor you get the very like maybe the
end of the wedding or like,chunks of a wedding and they're getting
(27:09):
drunk and they're hungoverwhen they get up to go real early
at hunting, and they're allstill dressed in their.
They have your.
You know, you get thatinteraction and the.
Know the relationship thatthese guys have and the understanding
that these three are going andthe others haven't been called and
whatnot.
So.
And then you jump right to therest of this movie.
But I.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Like, I don't.
(27:29):
I understand why they did thewedding scene, but I don't think
that other than the setup ofMike and whatever Meryl Streep's
character's name is, I cannever remember it.
But that piece there and thedynamic between Mike, Nick, and her,
like, that you miss out onwithout it.
But I think you could editaround that, too.
(27:50):
Yeah, I agree with you.
And we're getting close to theend, at least for what I wanted to
say.
But I like that this moviestuck to the realism of Mike and
I came out.
What.
What was Meryl Streep'scharacters actually?
What was her name?
Yeah, the fact that they.
Because you're always like,are they.
Are they going to get together?
Is this gonna happen?
And that.
(28:11):
Thankfully, no.
I mean, obviously, some peoplecould in the real world, but I think
in a lot of ways, like, they show.
It's just too much.
Too much distance, too much pain.
Too much has happened.
And, like, it didn't happen.
And I think it was good toshow that because, yeah, they could
have gotten together.
That would have been so cliche Hollywood.
But I don't think it wouldhave been the actual reality of what
(28:31):
really happened with people,where things are just kind of broken
beyond repair.
Yeah.
And I did a good job with thatbecause there was.
There's definitely tension,some awkwardness.
I'm like, oh.
Like, is it isn't like.
I mean, really great jobbetween the two of them?
But I think it was just moreof a reflection of what it probably
would have actually been like.
(28:53):
I like that Mike skips out onhis own homecoming party.
Like, he's like, that, dude,keep driving.
Like, I love that scene.
Like, that, to me, is like theepitome of, like, look, I don't want
this.
I just want to go home and bequiet and calm and not be restless
and.
Anyway.
All right, should we rate it?
(29:13):
Let's do it.
All right, I'll go first.
My movie.
I'm gonna give it a four.
I think where this movie fallsshort We've talked about a ton is
the length and some of thechoices that were made around extra
long scenes and shots ofnothing but scenery versus, you know,
(29:33):
people.
But where it shines, itreally, really does shine.
And I, I, again, I don't knowthat I want to give too much credit
to the director himself, perse, for that, but the actors in this
movie are outrageous.
They're very good.
It's a huge ensemble.
And then you have these twojust massive leading men.
(29:55):
And then, I mean, MerylStreep, that's all you gotta say
when you know the mostnominated Academy Award actress in
history, it's.
And for good reason.
She's amazing and she wasgreat in this.
So I think it's a.
It's a master class in, inacting and then even in dialogue
(30:16):
in a lot of places and so inwriting and things like that.
But I do think that it has itsflaws for sure, but I think it.
It knows what it is.
It sticks to what it is andit, it does it unapologetically.
And I really like the realismand the dark.
You know, they don't try to,like we said, they don't try to sugarcoat
(30:36):
what this movie is and whatit's actually about.
They.
They play it true to the boneand it's hurtful and it leaves you
not very happy walking out ofthe movie or finishing up.
But I think that makes senseand it is what should be.
So I'm gonna give it a 4.
I will probably watch thismovie again in my lifetime, but it'll
probably be a very long time.
It's been a very long timesince I had watched it.
(30:57):
But this isn't a movie that Igo, yeah, I want to sit down and
watch the Deer Hunter.
I.
It's.
No, I don't walk away feelingreal good about life when I'm done
with it.
So it's one of those that Ihave to be like, really in the mood
for.
Just some gritty, dark, andreally well acted.
But there's other places toget a lot of that without it feeling
just too rough.
(31:18):
So, yeah, Ford is for me.
All right, Alec.
All right, me.
I'm gonna give it a three anda half.
It was a rough watch for myown reasons, because the way I watch
movies and what pulls me inand pulls me out, but it was good.
And the stuff that was good,it was really good.
(31:38):
But I almost, because of beingpulled out, I almost had more enjoyment.
Not really enjoyment, but more.
I was more pulled intoactually reading about the movie
than I was in watching themovie in some cases.
Like one, a favorite story ofmine after reading about it was that
the guy who plays like theViet Cong leader in the movie is
(32:02):
just some random guy fromThailand they found who hates Americans.
Like, this dude was living hisbest life for three weeks while they
were filming the Deer Hunter.
Just slap around a couplemovie stars.
That's funny.
And so it's like little thingslike that that build around the story
that really kind of pulled mein more so than for the parts where
(32:27):
I was pulled out of the moviebecause I was like, what in the world
is going on?
But three and a half.
I definitely will not bewatching this again.
But it's not that.
It's not because it's a bad movie.
It's just that I just won'tget anything more out of it, I think,
than I already have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
All right, Matson, I'm gonnagive it a three.
(32:50):
I mean, biggest knock isAlready said it.
Not gonna beat it.
That horse.
It's just the pacing, the length.
I think JJ said it best.
Like, you re edited this movieand took out some things, especially
towards the beginning.
I think the, the middle to theend of this movie is well worth keeping,
and I just think it needs tobe at it.
I think it's phenomenalsubject matter.
Great acting.
(33:10):
Some really riveting scenes.
As I talked about with theRussian Roulette, especially with
the pow.
The end with the, the twofriends, there's just a lot in between
that is necessarily from adialogue standpoint, but you kind
of get lost in translation.
And this movie is so dialogueheavy that at times I just, I, I.
My interest waned a little bitand you got a little lost, really,
(33:33):
towards the beginning, themiddle end.
Like, I, I knew what washappening was the beginning where
I just, I didn't see a lot ofthe purpose in terms of the wedding
and like, staying up to datewith what was being said.
Just got a little fatigued.
But if with a re edit, I thinkthis movie would be great.
And it wasn't even watching itwas good.
It's just depressing.
As we talked about, I don'tknow if I'll watch this movie again,
(33:54):
but I do think I'll watch,like the POW scenes again.
That was just really phenomenal.
And I really appreciated therealism of the slaps and things.
I think it made it amazing.
So good movie.
It feels weird to say happy tohave watched it, but it was a.
It was worth watching.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think my favorite story,Alec is the one where they were dragging
(34:17):
Stevie to the pit thing.
And as they were putting himin, like, the actor has an actual
fear of rats.
And so when he was yelling,michael, there's rats in here.
He was yelling at thedirector, not Robert De Niro's character.
And it was so real that theykept it because it worked.
And he had the same name asthe director.
But yeah, like, this poorbastard got thrown in there with
(34:38):
actual rats, and he has a fearof rats.
So he was yelling at thedirector, like, get me the out of
here, dude.
It's up.
But yeah, there's just thatfinal story to elevate the mood around
the Deer Hunter.
Alex, tell everybody wherethey can find us.
Happy to.
So this is week three of WarMovies, and once again, that's the
(34:59):
only thing that matters tothis topic, is war movies.
There is no other correlation.
It is high, low, great, bad inthe middle, long, short, everything
you can imagine.
Only thing that's tiedtogether war movies.
So thank you for tuning in.
YouTube is the best place totune in so you can see our smiling
faces while we're talkingabout wartime tragedies.
(35:21):
It's wonderful.
Special thanks to our patronsRich and Charles, for pulling in.
Great selection for us.
Appreciate you guys.
If you guys want to getinvolved in the voting process, Patreon
at what's our verdict?
Reviews.
Best place to get involved soyou can vote on the content and,
you know, help give us topicsand then movies within those topics.
(35:44):
So it's a great time.
Go join us there to get moreinvolved with the podcast.
And with that, I'll kick itback to the King of Crash, the Wazir.
Of Wap A.
JJ Yeah, thanks, Alec.
Yeah, there it is.
War Movie week three, the Deer Hunter.
As always, we appreciate youtuning in.
We'll catch you on the next one.
(36:06):
Hasta la vista, baby.
Cinematica.
And then Christopher Walken.
Never, ever seen him thatyoung before.
Never.
He has a lot.
He had a lot of hair.
He.
I mean, he's a good lookingold guy.
But I was like, okay, makes sense.
Like, I've never seen him.
I don't even know if I've seenmovies of him before.
He was like, really old.
(00:25):
Welcome to the what's Alreadypodcast where we fashion ourselves
cinematic judge and Jerry.
My name is J.J.
crowder.
I'm here with my co host Matt and.
Better red than dead Alec Burgess.
Let's get it.
We appreciate you tuning in.
Go and hit that.
Follow subscribe.
Like bell notification buttons.
Tell a friend about us.
Tell a family member about us.
(00:47):
Look, I.
I feel like I'm repeatingmyself because I am, but tell a Vietnam
War vet about us.
Or just an avid hunter about us.
That works too.
Yeah.
We're kicking off week threeof war movies.
It is week three, right?
Or am I?
We.
Yeah, three.
Yeah.
(01:07):
Yeah.
Wow.
Week three of war movies.
This week we're running into deer.
The deer Hunter, releasedFebruary 23, 1979.
It was written and directed byMichael Simoneau.
I've never gotten his name right.
And we'll say Michael Simoneau.
And it stars Robert De Niro,Christopher Walken, John Cazale,
(01:31):
John Savage, Meryl Streep,George Zunza, Chuck Asperger, Shirley
Stoller, Britannia Alda, andRichard Kuss.
It is about an in depthexamination of the ways in which
the Vietnam War impacts anddisrupts the lives of several friends
in a small steel mill town in Pennsylvania.
(01:52):
That's a very broad synopsis,but I guess it works.
Yeah.
So week three, this was my choice.
This is my.
It's my one and only choice inthis podcast, is that again this
month where I've only got one.
Thank goodness.
Yeah, you wouldn't have likedmy other pick either.
(02:13):
Yeah, this movie.
Look, this movie really kindof messed with me when I was younger.
Like, this is one of the firstwar movies.
Like I.
I remember watching.
What got me to watch thismovie is I was on a Robert De Niro
kick.
One of my favorite movies ofall time is Heat.
(02:34):
And it.
It gets me, like every time Iwatch it.
I'm like, now I want to watchall of Robert De Niro films.
So I watch Raging Bull and I watch.
So I went on this kick oflike, very old school Robert De Niro
films.
And I was like, watched allthe major ones and I was like, look,
there's this movie, Deer Hunter.
This looks weird.
And then I start watching It.
And I'm like, holy, this movieis rough.
(02:56):
Like, it is heavy and dark andthere is little to no joy to be found
in this movie.
But I find it to be amasterclass in acting and character
development and.
And just drama from start to finish.
(03:16):
And I think the part thatreally catches me is like, the fact
that it's.
It's said and I don't know,but it's said that it's one of the
most accurate depictions oflike, the impact of war, especially
the.
The Vietnam.
Vietnam War.
And like, how it really justchanged people that went.
(03:38):
And look, not to diminish orlike, everybody has their own experiences,
but I think of the wars, like,war in general is going to change.
We know that.
Like, we've seen.
We have enough proof of thatin our country from vets coming home
from all wars being justchanged and going through stuff,
(03:58):
right?
But I think, like, watchingthis movie, like, I can't even fathom,
like, it just makes me verygrateful that I won, as stupid as
this sounds, had back surgerythat kept me from going into the
military that I like.
I had planned to go to themilitary academy when I was younger.
And I mean, I had all the waygone up to be applying for one before
(04:20):
I had my first car.
My car accident that drove meto surgery, which pulled me out of
what I wanted to be able to do.
So anyway, you know, and thento not have to go to war and see
these atrocities outside oflike, in something like this.
But like, yeah, this movie's crazy.
So whenever I think of warmovies, this is one of the first
ones that I think of.
(04:41):
And it partially because ofthe acting and, you know, the cinematography,
to me is fantastic, but alsobecause it, to me, it doesn't like.
Grant, like, what am I tryingto say?
It doesn't make war seem cool.
It doesn't make being asoldier seem like a fun thing to
(05:06):
do.
Right.
Again, I think a lot of timeswar movies, not all of them, but
a lot of them will like, makeit look like this great, wonderful,
grand thing.
And while it's something thathappens and it's important and I'm
grateful for our servicepeople that have fought in wars,
for what our country is andcan be and has been.
But geez, man, like, thismovie does not give you anything
(05:30):
that makes me go, hey, I wanna.
I wanna go sign up for that.
So anyway, I just love this movie.
It is very long.
I will.
Three hours is a long movie period.
And this one, because it'scharacter driven and very dialogue
Heavy feels every bit of three hours.
But I just, I'm alwaysinfatuated by what's going on on
(05:53):
the screen with this.
So anyway, that's me, Matson.
Poo poo it.
And then I'm here.
Curious to hear about Alec.
Yeah, I mean, I don't thinkI'm a poo poo as much.
I mean I'm, I'm on brand for amovie that's really long.
I think would I like thismovie a lot more if they edited out
45 minutes and still, which Iknow it's character driven.
(06:14):
I think there's some areasthat they could have snipped a little
bit.
What I've liked maybe more.
Sure.
But what I will take away fromthis movie probably more than anything
is one.
Never seen Robert Downey Jr.
Or, sorry, Robert De Niro.
At least the movies I've seenhim in his goatee.
I just wasn't prepared for that.
I was.
And, and to be honest, Ihaven't seen many movies.
(06:35):
He was, this is the youngest,I think I'd seen him in a movie because
I've seen him in some ones.
I knew he was younger, but Iwas taken away.
I was like, I've never seenhim this young.
So one, I was like, oh, whoa.
And then Christopher Walken,never, ever seen him that young before.
Never.
He has a lot, he had a lot of hair.
He, I mean he's a good lookingold guy.
But I was like, okay, makes sense.
(06:57):
Like I've never seen him.
I don't even know if I've seenmovies of him before.
He was like really old.
That blew me away.
Never seen Meryl Streep thatyoung before as well.
I do like a double takebecause I was like, oh, that is her.
Because I was like, this can'tbe heard says it's her, but it's
her.
And so that was fun to see.
(07:17):
Some really amazing actorsthat I don't know if this movie was
their big break or they werejust still building a lot in their
career.
But I mean, for that alone, Iknew this movie is going to be good
because I mean those are someof the best actors that you can find
out.
You name all that.
There's some other really goodpeople in this movie.
The scene, the Russianroulette scene, I mean, that'll stick
(07:40):
with me.
I, I think of all the scenesin the movie, for me that was the
most riveting because therewas tension.
I mean, action.
But it also told.
I mean there's, I looked it upafter there's no confirmed thing
in history that this actually,like things like this happened from
Viet Cong.
It doesn't mean it didn'thappen, obviously, but I think they
(08:01):
took something dramatic toshow that obviously these prison
camps, they were not fun.
They were anything but closeto fun.
And I thought they picked aninteresting way to depict the tensions
of basically having to choose.
Are you gonna live?
Is your friend gonna die?
Like, how.
Like if just.
I mean, the chase sceneafterwards, trying to get in the
helicopter.
(08:22):
What happened to Steve?
Like, just.
I mean, that whole.
I don't know what that was,like 20 or 30 minutes.
I mean, that was awesome.
That was like.
I was to take like a mini movie.
I probably would go back andwatch that part.
That was really exceptional.
Just you could feel it.
And then even I'll tack on that.
(08:45):
The restroom.
That scene I was talking aboutis when they were POWs.
But then you take it to thevery end of the moon, like almost
the climax.
Getting close to it, basicallywhen he goes back to try and save
Christopher Walking'scharacter, which.
Why the.
What was his name?
Nick.
Yes.
And that was also like thebuild up, the.
The last little bit, the buildup to that.
(09:06):
And then actually when ithappened, like, man, like, my goodness.
As well.
Incredible to watch.
I wish the movie would haveended more around there.
Like it then it had kind of aslow roll to the finish for me.
And that's kind of the lastpoint for me.
This movie is so long andthere's so many.
Like, there's the.
The build up to going to warand like seeing their friendship
(09:27):
and the marriage.
The hunting.
I think I could have donewithout almost every hunting scene
because they showed, like, youcould have snipped a lot of the time
there.
And then there's the Vietnamscenes and then there's like the
post war scenes.
And I think the Vietnam andpost war scenes, I pretty much liked
(09:47):
all of it.
It was the build up.
I know why they did it, but Idon't know.
Like, I was sitting therewatching and I kept asking myself,
like, is it because I.
I'm distracted while watchingthis or do I need to, like, restart
this?
I just didn't feel like I wasinvolved as much with these characters
as I.
I wanted to be until they gotto Vietnam.
(10:09):
And I don't know why that was.
Like, I found myself at times,like, confused and like, wait, this
is a hunting trip?
Like, when are they going to war?
Like, there's all.
I think it was so dialogueheavy for me at times that I.
I got A little sidetracked,and then it got more on script.
I think I just kept thinking,like, when's.
When's the war part cominginto this?
And then I was like, oh, this is.
(10:30):
This is that.
So maybe it was just a.
An expectation on my part thatit wasn't as obvious, but it took
me out a little bit and tookme a long time to kind of to settle
into this movie.
But once I did, it's a goodmovie, but it is.
It's long.
And it's not like a.
(10:51):
It's not like a.
Like a.
It's hard to say, like, do Iwant to watch this again?
I mean, for those couple ofscenes, but, man, it's.
It's.
It's like watching AmericanSniper, which I recently rewatched
again.
I remember I was quicklyreminded why I didn't watch that
movie for a very long time,because it felt like a funeral when
I finished it again.
And this movie has verysimilar vibes.
(11:12):
It's not like you don't comeout feeling real good.
You're like, oh, so all thatto say it's long.
It's a very interesting movie.
But it took me a while to getinto it.
But once I did, there werescenes that were riveting.
Yeah.
All right, Alec, your turn.
This one's tricky because Idon't have a problem with, like,
(11:36):
length or slow burn.
Yeah.
But what really gets me iswhen transitions are jarring and
you go like, snap, snap, snap, snap.
So all of a sudden we're at awedding, and then it, like, cuss,
and we're in Vietnam.
But it's not like basictraining, going to Vietnam.
It's not on the helicopter onyour way over to Vietnam.
(11:58):
It's.
Mike's in a ditch, you know,hiding or just waking up from what
was almost a little death nap.
And so.
And that's the trick.
And then almost like you getfive minutes of, okay, he's in Vietnam
trying to figure it out, big reunion.
And then all of a suddenthey're in a prison camp.
And so the, like, thetransitions in between the sequences
(12:22):
got me to be like, how do weget here?
And now all of a sudden I'mlike, where's the draw?
Draw the line.
Give me a little bit of backstory.
Give me a little bit of thehow we got here.
Because the first, like, hourof this movie, even the 45 minute
long wedding scene, issomething that I'm okay with.
And it's.
It's building this character.
(12:43):
You know, it's a.
It's you know, kind of tellingthe story about these guys, everything
like that.
And then all of a sudden it'slike, oh, it's like they remembered,
oh, shoot, we're actuallymaking a movie here.
Tick tock, tick tock.
We're on the clock.
And, you know, throwingVietnam, throwing this.
And then, you know, it's the.
You get.
It's just a weird one for mebecause it's, it's these little spikes
(13:04):
and there's no backstory forme to even kind of figure out how
we got to this point afterstarting off the movie.
And I'm like, okay, character driven.
Slow burn.
I got this.
This is my jam.
What?
There's a rat in the cage.
And so it, it pulled me out,but not in the way that I normally
get pulled out movies.
It pulled me out to just belike, what the fuck is going on?
(13:27):
And so, I mean, if that wasthe intended goal, like, psychologically,
shit messed me up because Iwas constantly going, what?
What am I watching?
When I was actually rewindingsequences to be like, did I miss
something?
Like, did I just fall asleepfor 10 minutes and miss something?
I understand what was going on.
It's like, nope, that's justthe way it float.
And so I actually probablytook five hours to watch this movie.
(13:53):
But, I mean, I liked it, butthere was parts of it where I was
sitting there going, I.
I missed something.
Someone uploaded.
I mean, that's basicallyprobably what happened to me.
And I didn't spend the extratwo hours to fully.
Yeah.
Recalibrate myself.
I was like, wait a minute, Imissed something.
Somebody uploaded a fractionof this and they pulled out a very
(14:13):
key scene to the story.
But no, that's just the way itwas made.
So it was on the frustratingside for a little bit because I was
like, what's going on?
What's happening?
But it was good.
I mean, I liked it.
I don't think I could watch itagain for those reasons, but I enjoyed
it.
Yeah.
And there's a reason that youdon't hear about Michael Camino,
(14:34):
Cimino, whatever the hell hisname is.
Like, this isn't a guy that he.
He made this movie and it hithome really hard.
Won a ton of Oscars, includingit kicked off Meryl Streep's record
breaking run of Oscar winsbecause she.
This was her first Oscar inthe supporting role.
(14:55):
And then she won like forKramer versus Kramer the next year.
She won like five years in arow or some.
Like, she's insane.
But this was her first onethis kicked her off, and she does
a great job.
And it did.
You know, Robert De Niro wasso worried about the controversy
around this film that heactually didn't even go to the Oscars.
(15:15):
Like, he.
He was like, can I sit backstage?
And the Oscars are like, nope.
And he's like, it.
I'll stay home.
And he stayed home and watchedit from TV because he was so worried
about it.
But, yeah, like, it won a ton,and it did well.
And then he's just not.
Because his film making.
And I'm with you.
His editing.
The editing is horrendous.
(15:35):
But I.
There's like.
It's also like eight hours offilm is what, like.
And he is.
He has a hard time editinghimself because I'm with you.
Like, there's a lot of thingsthat should have been edited differently
or cut differently or, youknow, if you're gonna do it.
Like, the jump cuts were hard.
So I.
I definitely agree with that.
(15:55):
And really, I always look at it.
It's almost like three moviesin one.
Three, really three shortfilms that are all tied into one
movie.
So it's really interesting.
But there's a lot of weirdthat went on in this, like, the filming
in this movie.
Like, so when they're doingthe Russian roulette scene in the
prison camp, like, theslapping was real.
(16:19):
Like, they were getting theslapped out of them to the point
that the actors were getting pissed.
And they were like, switchads, of course, to the scene.
But De Niro wanted thatbecause he wanted it to be believable.
Yeah, De Niro asked for a lotof things.
He also.
In the one where he does it to the.
The guy.
I can.
Can't think of his name, thecharacter name, but the guy from
(16:40):
the.
The little brother for.
Or the older brother from theGod Bless America.
What's the movie now?
I'm trying to think of, too,from the Godfather, the guy with
the mustache and the greasy hair.
So when he does that one athome and, like, he.
Michael forces him into it.
Like, there was a live roundin that gun that was by Robert De
(17:03):
Niro's demand.
And the guy playing the othercharacter agreed to it.
Never fought it, but he was.
He was, like, obsessivelychecking the cartridge, like, making
sure that the.
The bullet wasn't in there allthe time, I guess.
Which I'm like, no, like.
But he wanted.
I guess for Dairo, it wasabout the real nervousness of the
(17:26):
fact that even though they setit up to never have it be the real
bullet like, it's there, andyou have.
You know what I mean?
So.
Yeah.
Apparently, cuckoo.
That's a.
Maybe put a blank in there,doesn't it?
Like, I don't know about that.
I.
I didn't know this as well,but I guess he was younger then.
He did the.
He actually did the jump outof the.
(17:47):
The helicopter as well.
And so he did a little Tom Cruise.
Yeah.
In fact, they were saying itwas something like 15 times.
He had.
They.
He and that other guy had tojump out of that because directors
are weird.
Yeah.
I mean, it makes sense.
When this dude puts in enoughof the nature scenes, I'm like, am
I watching, like, NationalGeographic or, like, am I watching
(18:08):
a movie?
And I'm like, look, dude, Iappreciate a good view, but I've
seen, like, 20 scenes of this.
Like, maybe just speed it up just.
Just a tad bit.
Like, come on now.
Yeah, that stuff got to be.
I was like, all right, dude, Iknow this movie's long.
I don't need 10 minutes ofseeing the countryside.
Like, you gotta just, like,advance it.
Yeah, yeah.
(18:29):
I mean, there's some seriousstuff that you're like, why is this
in here?
Like, I'm okay with all thescenes that have dialogue or the
ones that are showing Michaelwhere he'd prefer to be really kind
of alone and.
Yeah.
You know, doing his thing.
But I.
Yeah, the, like, random shotsof, like, nothing but driving by
the forest or empty forest shots.
It's like, what the hell arewe doing here?
(18:51):
Well, this guy, he got so.
The director got so big forhis britches.
I was texting JJ about this acouple years later.
He made, apparently one of themost colossal movie flops in history
called Heaven's Gate, where,because this movie was so successful,
he basically was handed the.
The creative licensing to doevery and anything that he deemed
(19:11):
fit.
And as we've already seen,talking about this movie, he made
some questionable decisions.
That movie, he basically,like, as I understand, overshot,
took way too.
Like, the movie is alreadyover budget, like, a couple days
in, already behind schedule,like, on the first day, and just
got worse and worse and worseand worse.
(19:32):
So I think this guy found thelightning in a bottle with this movie
one because he just hadamazing actors that saved him and
the subject matter.
But I think he.
He's clearly not that good ofa director.
Yeah, I can't.
I don't even know anythingelse that he's done.
Like, I.
And I don't.
Like.
I mean, I looked it up when Iwas getting ready for this movie
(19:54):
and look at.
But I don't remember anythingeven after looking it up.
Like, if you hadn't just toldme it was Heaven's Gate, I wouldn't
remember, like.
But, yeah, he's.
It's obviously got lucky.
Made a good movie, had somereally good actors that, like you
said, kind of carried it through.
But, yeah, like, the other onethat really happened in this was
(20:17):
so the director convincedChristopher Walken to spit in De
Niro's face in that final.
And De Niro didn't know it wascoming, which is why, like, the hesitation
and the look on his face.
And he almost walked off setbefore because of it.
And, like, I guess, like, thedirector at some point was like,
they were talking about it,and he's like, yeah, Christopher
(20:37):
Watkins got balls, dude.
I would have punched him inthe face.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, that's one of thosethings where you're like, oh, damn.
He actually spit on him anddidn't know it was coming.
That's rough.
But that seemed to me, like.
I love that as a.
As the climax of this filmwhen he goes back to get Nick.
(21:01):
And, like, Nick is just broken and.
And making all this moneydoing the, like, reliving probably
the most traumatic moment ofhis life that, like, he was forced
into by Mike to a certain degree.
Right.
Like, to help the escape plan.
And, like, just watching thatand then watching the guilt that
(21:23):
Mike has over the fact thatNick doesn't come out of this thing.
Right.
Right.
So it's.
I love that moment.
As sad and rough and difficultas it is to watch.
Like, I think that's one ofthose moments when you're just like
this.
There's no way this ends well.
And then I love.
The other thing that I love isthey don't try to, like, fix it.
(21:45):
Right.
Like, we see this moment, thenwe see the funeral, then it's, you
know, his friends, like,crying in their eggs, you know, as
he's trying to, like, makedinner or make breakfast and whatever
it is.
And then it just ends.
And I'm like, that's how amovie like this should end.
You shouldn't try to make me.
There's nothing to feel good about.
(22:06):
What happens in this film andthe fact that they don't try to bring
it back and make you leave onthis high note.
Like, you leave going, thatwas up.
That whole thing was up.
I.
I love that.
As hard as it is to watch andthat, like I said, this is like,
the third time I've everwatched this movie.
Because it's like, it puts mein a funk for the rest of the day
(22:27):
after I watch it.
Because it's hard to watch.
It's.
It's hard to, like, at leastfor me, like, sit and watch that
and then go through it andthen, like, try.
I start thinking about, like,well, how would I have handled a
situation like that?
Like, who would I have been?
Like, I probably would havebeen the dude that couldn't, you
know, do whatever and gothimself freaking thrown out in the
(22:51):
box with the rats and the wall.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's just like, man,it's just rough.
That's why I was happy Iwatched American Sniper.
Because I'll never forgetwalking out of that movie theater
was the quietest a movietheater's ever been.
And I would imagine if I couldhave seen this movie in theaters,
it would have been a verysimilar feeling.
And this movie, like, AmericanSniper, he.
(23:13):
It ends when you see that guy,and then it flashes to black and
you're like, oh, I knew he was.
I remember that movie.
I knew he was gonna die.
Like, I think I knew he wasgonna die.
I just didn't know he wasgonna die.
Right, like, there.
Yeah.
And the fact that they didn'teven show it and then you got the.
Your typical black screen.
(23:33):
I was like, damn.
Like, damn.
He really went out like that.
Like, after all that, thenthis movie, very similar vibe where
you're just like, damn.
Like, it's not really any wayyou can come back from that.
You're just trying to pick upthe pieces and live a very broken
life after that.
And his buddy Stevie, like,he's in a wheelchair for the rest
(23:56):
of his life.
Mike's wants to be alone, butclearly very messed up and not getting
the therapy he needs in the 70s.
He's just gonna limp along tothe rest of.
And anyone else that was.
You just know it's just notgoing to be good.
So I like, it's.
This movie would have beenabsolutely horrible if they tried
to find some silver lining,because then.
(24:17):
Then we would never bewatching this movie.
I do appreciate movies that do that.
But for that matter, like,we're saying, like, I don't know,
the next time I'll be watchingAmerican Sniper or the next time
I'll be watching this moviebecause just, yeah, I'm not gonna
go to war.
This movie makes me want tostay far away from it.
(24:38):
So.
So it should be committed for that.
But our listening audience,like, yeah, is it worth the watch?
Absolutely.
But maybe, like, haveSomething happy planned after.
Yeah.
If you're in a bad place,don't watch this movie.
Not a good way to not gonna.
(24:58):
Not go.
Maybe.
Maybe it's that there'ssomeone's always got it worse than
you, but.
Yeah, I mean, there are somecatharsis sometimes in situations
like that, but I don'trecommend it.
It gets rough.
It's rough.
Had either of you seen thisbefore or is this the first?
I was gonna say you knew Ididn't see this.
Yeah, I figured you hadn't.
(25:19):
I didn't know Alec, though,because with this movie, you know,
doing some cinema.
Cinema classes and stuffbefore, like, sometimes this one
makes it in those.
I.
I'd seen parts, but not all inone sitting.
Yeah, they intentionally shootthis more gritty, like in the filming
of it.
It has like.
It doesn't look as crisp.
(25:40):
I don't like a 70s movie.
Yeah, I don't think so.
I just don't think it's everbeen remastered.
Like, I don't think anybodywant is like sitting around going,
we should do a remasteredversion of the Deer Hunter.
Because I think there's also.
Back in the day, like whenthis came out, like, it was praised
as, you know, top of its fieldtype movie, won a ton of Oscars,
(26:01):
things like that.
Now I don't think it's lookedat as the same.
Like, it's still highly rated and.
But it's not like people go,this is like a masterpiece of a movie
that you should go check outbecause of the things that we're
talking about.
So I don't know that anybody'sever been like, we're gonna remaster
Deer Hunter and maybe that'llmake people feel a little less.
I think if someone could goback and re edit it.
(26:23):
Sure.
I think it could be a.
This is like a prime especially.
They'll have a little footage.
Take one of those talenting.
Take one of those talentededitors and rehash this.
I think they make the moviebetter, probably be shorter and make
more sense.
Yeah, no, I agree.
I agree.
Yeah, it needs an edit.
Like, no doubt.
Like, I think you couldreally, to be honest with you, I
(26:46):
think you could cut out mostof the first.
I agree.
Of the.
The wedding scene.
Like, look, I like a lot of itor not a lot of it.
I like some of it because youhave to have the introduction to
the characters.
But I think you could have theintroduction of the characters be
the hunting scene.
Like, you know what I mean?
Because you get the same thingor you get the very like maybe the
end of the wedding or like,chunks of a wedding and they're getting
(27:09):
drunk and they're hungoverwhen they get up to go real early
at hunting, and they're allstill dressed in their.
They have your.
You know, you get thatinteraction and the.
Know the relationship thatthese guys have and the understanding
that these three are going andthe others haven't been called and
whatnot.
So.
And then you jump right to therest of this movie.
But I.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Like, I don't.
(27:29):
I understand why they did thewedding scene, but I don't think
that other than the setup ofMike and whatever Meryl Streep's
character's name is, I cannever remember it.
But that piece there and thedynamic between Mike, Nick, and her,
like, that you miss out onwithout it.
But I think you could editaround that, too.
(27:50):
Yeah, I agree with you.
And we're getting close to theend, at least for what I wanted to
say.
But I like that this moviestuck to the realism of Mike and
I came out.
What.
What was Meryl Streep'scharacters actually?
What was her name?
Yeah, the fact that they.
Because you're always like,are they.
Are they going to get together?
Is this gonna happen?
And that.
(28:11):
Thankfully, no.
I mean, obviously, some peoplecould in the real world, but I think
in a lot of ways, like, they show.
It's just too much.
Too much distance, too much pain.
Too much has happened.
And, like, it didn't happen.
And I think it was good toshow that because, yeah, they could
have gotten together.
That would have been so cliche Hollywood.
But I don't think it wouldhave been the actual reality of what
(28:31):
really happened with people,where things are just kind of broken
beyond repair.
Yeah.
And I did a good job with thatbecause there was.
There's definitely tension,some awkwardness.
I'm like, oh.
Like, is it isn't like.
I mean, really great jobbetween the two of them?
But I think it was just moreof a reflection of what it probably
would have actually been like.
(28:53):
I like that Mike skips out onhis own homecoming party.
Like, he's like, that, dude,keep driving.
Like, I love that scene.
Like, that, to me, is like theepitome of, like, look, I don't want
this.
I just want to go home and bequiet and calm and not be restless
and.
Anyway.
All right, should we rate it?
(29:13):
Let's do it.
All right, I'll go first.
My movie.
I'm gonna give it a four.
I think where this movie fallsshort We've talked about a ton is
the length and some of thechoices that were made around extra
long scenes and shots ofnothing but scenery versus, you know,
(29:33):
people.
But where it shines, itreally, really does shine.
And I, I, again, I don't knowthat I want to give too much credit
to the director himself, perse, for that, but the actors in this
movie are outrageous.
They're very good.
It's a huge ensemble.
And then you have these twojust massive leading men.
(29:55):
And then, I mean, MerylStreep, that's all you gotta say
when you know the mostnominated Academy Award actress in
history, it's.
And for good reason.
She's amazing and she wasgreat in this.
So I think it's a.
It's a master class in, inacting and then even in dialogue
(30:16):
in a lot of places and so inwriting and things like that.
But I do think that it has itsflaws for sure, but I think it.
It knows what it is.
It sticks to what it is andit, it does it unapologetically.
And I really like the realismand the dark.
You know, they don't try to,like we said, they don't try to sugarcoat
(30:36):
what this movie is and whatit's actually about.
They.
They play it true to the boneand it's hurtful and it leaves you
not very happy walking out ofthe movie or finishing up.
But I think that makes senseand it is what should be.
So I'm gonna give it a 4.
I will probably watch thismovie again in my lifetime, but it'll
probably be a very long time.
It's been a very long timesince I had watched it.
(30:57):
But this isn't a movie that Igo, yeah, I want to sit down and
watch the Deer Hunter.
I.
It's.
No, I don't walk away feelingreal good about life when I'm done
with it.
So it's one of those that Ihave to be like, really in the mood
for.
Just some gritty, dark, andreally well acted.
But there's other places toget a lot of that without it feeling
just too rough.
(31:18):
So, yeah, Ford is for me.
All right, Alec.
All right, me.
I'm gonna give it a three anda half.
It was a rough watch for myown reasons, because the way I watch
movies and what pulls me inand pulls me out, but it was good.
And the stuff that was good,it was really good.
(31:38):
But I almost, because of beingpulled out, I almost had more enjoyment.
Not really enjoyment, but more.
I was more pulled intoactually reading about the movie
than I was in watching themovie in some cases.
Like one, a favorite story ofmine after reading about it was that
the guy who plays like theViet Cong leader in the movie is
(32:02):
just some random guy fromThailand they found who hates Americans.
Like, this dude was living hisbest life for three weeks while they
were filming the Deer Hunter.
Just slap around a couplemovie stars.
That's funny.
And so it's like little thingslike that that build around the story
that really kind of pulled mein more so than for the parts where
(32:27):
I was pulled out of the moviebecause I was like, what in the world
is going on?
But three and a half.
I definitely will not bewatching this again.
But it's not that.
It's not because it's a bad movie.
It's just that I just won'tget anything more out of it, I think,
than I already have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
All right, Matson, I'm gonnagive it a three.
(32:50):
I mean, biggest knock isAlready said it.
Not gonna beat it.
That horse.
It's just the pacing, the length.
I think JJ said it best.
Like, you re edited this movieand took out some things, especially
towards the beginning.
I think the, the middle to theend of this movie is well worth keeping,
and I just think it needs tobe at it.
I think it's phenomenalsubject matter.
Great acting.
(33:10):
Some really riveting scenes.
As I talked about with theRussian Roulette, especially with
the pow.
The end with the, the twofriends, there's just a lot in between
that is necessarily from adialogue standpoint, but you kind
of get lost in translation.
And this movie is so dialogueheavy that at times I just, I, I.
My interest waned a little bitand you got a little lost, really,
(33:33):
towards the beginning, themiddle end.
Like, I, I knew what washappening was the beginning where
I just, I didn't see a lot ofthe purpose in terms of the wedding
and like, staying up to datewith what was being said.
Just got a little fatigued.
But if with a re edit, I thinkthis movie would be great.
And it wasn't even watching itwas good.
It's just depressing.
As we talked about, I don'tknow if I'll watch this movie again,
(33:54):
but I do think I'll watch,like the POW scenes again.
That was just really phenomenal.
And I really appreciated therealism of the slaps and things.
I think it made it amazing.
So good movie.
It feels weird to say happy tohave watched it, but it was a.
It was worth watching.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think my favorite story,Alec is the one where they were dragging
(34:17):
Stevie to the pit thing.
And as they were putting himin, like, the actor has an actual
fear of rats.
And so when he was yelling,michael, there's rats in here.
He was yelling at thedirector, not Robert De Niro's character.
And it was so real that theykept it because it worked.
And he had the same name asthe director.
But yeah, like, this poorbastard got thrown in there with
(34:38):
actual rats, and he has a fearof rats.
So he was yelling at thedirector, like, get me the out of
here, dude.
It's up.
But yeah, there's just thatfinal story to elevate the mood around
the Deer Hunter.
Alex, tell everybody wherethey can find us.
Happy to.
So this is week three of WarMovies, and once again, that's the
(34:59):
only thing that matters tothis topic, is war movies.
There is no other correlation.
It is high, low, great, bad inthe middle, long, short, everything
you can imagine.
Only thing that's tiedtogether war movies.
So thank you for tuning in.
YouTube is the best place totune in so you can see our smiling
faces while we're talkingabout wartime tragedies.
(35:21):
It's wonderful.
Special thanks to our patronsRich and Charles, for pulling in.
Great selection for us.
Appreciate you guys.
If you guys want to getinvolved in the voting process, Patreon
at what's our verdict?
Reviews.
Best place to get involved soyou can vote on the content and,
you know, help give us topicsand then movies within those topics.
(35:44):
So it's a great time.
Go join us there to get moreinvolved with the podcast.
And with that, I'll kick itback to the King of Crash, the Wazir.
Of Wap A.
JJ Yeah, thanks, Alec.
Yeah, there it is.
War Movie week three, the Deer Hunter.
As always, we appreciate youtuning in.
We'll catch you on the next one.
(36:06):
Hasta la vista, baby.
Cinematica.
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