September 30, 2025 • 47 mins
Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief.
When grieving, we desperately need what therapist Kristi Gaultiere calls "oxygen for the soul" – empathy. Not quick fixes or sympathetic platitudes, but the profound healing that comes through being truly seen in our pain.
In this illuminating conversation, Kristi unpacks why empathy transforms grief by allowing us to breathe through unbearable moments. Research shows that when someone responds to our vulnerability with genuine understanding, our whole body responds – energy increases, fatigue decreases, sleep improves, and our ability to concentrate returns. Without this empathetic connection, we remain isolated in our pain, unable to process our grief effectively.
Kristi walks us through her practical Four A's framework for offering empathy: Ask curious questions, Attune completely to the person, Acknowledge the unique significance of their loss, and Affirm their strength (but only after the first three steps). She clarifies crucial distinctions between healthy empathy and codependency, explaining how true empathy empowers while codependency drains both parties.
For parents navigating their own grief while supporting children, Kristi offers wisdom about self-empathy and befriending our emotions. When we judge or shame ourselves for feelings like anger or sadness, our children learn to suppress their emotions too. By modeling acceptance of our grief, we create safe spaces for our children to process theirs.
Most powerfully, Kristi reminds us that our wounds can become sources of healing for others. Through our grief journey, we develop deeper capacity for empathy – turning our pain into a gift that helps others feel less alone. Whether you're grieving, supporting someone who is, or simply want to become more empathetic, this episode offers practical wisdom and heartfelt guidance for the journey ahead.
Order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L
For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gary Shriver (00:00):
Hello and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding Executive Director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, Program
Director for Jessica's House anda Licensed Marriage and Family
Therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Comes Home is now available atall major book retailers.
(00:47):
Now let's go to the team asthey share grief resources and
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (01:01):
Hello.
I'm Brad Quillen, joined by myco-hosts Erin Nelson and
Colleen Montague.
Today, we're honored to havewith Kristi Gaultiere, a
licensed marriage and familytherapist who, along with her
husband Bill, have beencounseling and ministering to
people for over 30 years.
Erin, Colleen, let's jump rightinto this podcast.
(01:24):
Erin, you want to start us off?
Erin Nelson (01:26):
Well, Kristi, we are so glad to have you today
and we're so excited about thisnew book that you wrote with
Bill and it's called DeeplyLoved, and you and Bill have a
ministry called Soul Shepherding, and we're just so glad to have
you here on our podcast today.
Kristi Gaultiere (01:45):
Thank you so much, Erin and Colleen.
I'm thrilled to be with you andso grateful for those that are
tuning in to listen, and it's myhonor to share what I have been
so blessed to know and hashelped and been so healing for
me personally.
Erin Nelson (02:01):
I also just really resonate with the healing that
can come when you have aperson's empathetic presence in
your life, and what a differenceit makes to be really seen and
loved and be met with empathy.
And so in our listeners we haveso many people that are tuning
(02:21):
in because they're grieving, andso we'll talk a little bit
about that and how this empathycan really be healing for them,
and so we'll go ahead and getstarted.
But I just wanted to ask howhave you seen the ministry of
empathy bring comfort to thosewho may be grieving?
Kristi Gaultiere (02:42):
Well, it's a tremendous comfort because we
have studied much about empathyand even the way that our body
responds to empathy.
There's been studies one of therecent continuing education
courses that I did was onneuropsychology and it was
showing that when we arevulnerable with someone, if they
don't respond with empathy, theshame centers of our brain
(03:04):
actually light up and there areall kinds of emotional barriers
that actually will get in theway of our grief if we are not
having a safe place to processit and a safe person who will
attune to our emotions, who willlisten to us with interest and
(03:24):
who will respond with accurateand healing empathy.
But when we receive thatempathy, it is so empowering for
us and so freeing for us.
Oftentimes, just even in my ownexperience, because I too am a
person working through grief I,in the last three years I've
lost my brother, my mother andnow my brother-in-law from
(03:48):
cancer, and my brother-in-lawactually is still under
treatment, but he has stage fourpancreatic cancer and it's not
looking good.
And in my own grief, as I sharemy grief, as I'm journeying
with them, as I've beenintimately involved in every
phase of their process, fromdiagnosis through treatment and
(04:09):
after their passing, is I sharemy grief.
I notice a huge difference whensomebody rushes to give me
sympathy, maybe oh yes, I knowexactly how you feel and they
start to talk about themselvesand it just kind of shuts me
down and I feel like I need toshow up for them.
Or if somebody begins to giveme advice well, you know what
really helped me when I wentthrough that is it kind of shuts
(04:30):
me down, shuts down my emotions.
But when somebody reallyattunes to me with empathy and
says I'm really sad for you,tell me more, and they're
interested and they're tuned into my nonverbal communication,
to my emotions, and they beginto use words to mirror back to
me, using their own words, thatI know, like, oh, this person
(04:52):
understands and get it.
Oh, I think they know somethingabout grief.
Oh, you know, I'm feeling likethey really care.
I'm not feeling so alone.
Oh, this burden is feelinglighter.
Oh, I'm open.
I'm beginning to get some newinsights.
Erin Nelson (05:11):
It changes everything.
It changes everything and youcan really feel just the genuine
nature of being met with thatreflection.
And here at Jessica's House wetalk so much about reflection
and what it means to welcomesomeone wherever they are in
their grief, and we can reflectback their words and mirror kind
of their energy to just be withthem and that's really kind of
(05:36):
the heart of what we do everyday.
And so thank you so much forsharing a little bit more about
how somebody might be met withempathy.
Kristi Gaultiere (05:46):
It's so important and we kind of know
the old adage I don't care whatyou know if I don't know that
you care.
And empathy is a way of feelinglike somebody cares.
If somebody's giving me empathy, I know they care and then I'm
going to be more open to whatthey know.
And I think the way that you atJessica's House give empathy to
(06:09):
the people that you're caringfor, and even, I'm sure, the
people that tune into yourpodcast and read your book,
receive empathy from you.
It helps them to lean in toreceive more from your expertise
as well.
Erin Nelson (06:21):
Yeah, and it's just .
There's something about amovement of healing that happens
when you receive that empathy,and I think even for the person
that is giving the empathy andis present, there's just
something about the flow of thatthat can just because you know
so much of what you talk aboutin your book is that it really
(06:45):
comes from God.
So you're really in that flowof God and how he's inside of
you and how you're able to bringthat to someone.
That's right.
Kristi Gaultiere (06:57):
In 1 John 4, verse 7, we read that we love
because God first loved us andwe empathize because God first
empathizes with us.
We have a God, a Savior, inJesus Christ, who came to
empathize with us.
Hebrews 4.15 says we do nothave a high priest who's unable
(07:19):
to empathize with us, but onewho's been tempted, tested,
tried in every way we have.
He became human and understood.
He experienced the grief andloss of his father Joseph, his
earthly father, at a young age,and of his cousin, john the
Baptist, and he lived in a timewhere there was so much grief,
under Roman occupation, and hewas poor and he knew so many
(07:44):
griefs and was well acquaintedwith grief.
Even scripture tells us, and soJesus has this personal empathy
for us in our trials, in ourloss, in our pain.
He knew pain.
Erin Nelson (07:56):
Yes, he did, and he's our best model to really
watch how he lived and to embodythat.
That's right.
Colleen Montague (08:06):
Kristi, you describe empathy as oxygen for
the soul.
Can you help our listeners whoare supporting grieving children
and families understand whyempathy is so crucial during
times of loss?
Kristi Gaultiere (08:19):
Well.
Thank you, Colleen.
Research shows.
There's a lot of research onthe power of oxygen right now.
It empowers us, it increasesour energy.
It reduces our fatigue.
We sleep better when we'rewell-oxygenated.
It improves our concentrationand our performance.
It's the same way with empathy.
I can say that empathy empowersme, it increases my energy.
(08:41):
It reduces my fatigue.
I sleep better when I'vereceived empathy because I'm not
processing all my emotions andanxious dreams.
It improves my concentrationbecause I'm not distracted by
all these emotions that are, youknow, dysregulating me or that
I'm trying to use energy torepress.
My performance is betterbecause I don't feel alone.
I feel supported by empathy.
(09:01):
You know, if you grew up in asmoggy city, you kind of adapt
to it.
You don't even notice the smog.
I grew up in SouthernCalifornia.
When I married Bill and hemoved here from the country, he
couldn't breathe.
It hurt his lungs to breathebecause of the smog and I didn't
know what I was missing becauseI'd never had clear air.
But he did.
And it's kind of like that withempathy.
(09:23):
Many of us have been living inan empathy desert where we
haven't experienced it.
We don't even know what it'slike.
But then when we begin tobreathe and receive empathy.
It's like this oxygen for oursoul and it's so helpful and
empowering it makes such a hugedifference for us.
Brad Quillen (09:42):
Hey, Kristi, speaking of empathy, in your
book you guys mentioned the ideathat some people criticize
empathy as it's being too softor too easy.
You know enables people to kindof stay where they're at, but
how do you respond to that?
Like, what do you and Bill sayabout that?
Kristi Gaultiere (09:58):
Well, thank you, Brad.
That is important.
I think there is a lot ofmisconceptions about empathy.
One of the things that's a bigthing that causes people to not
appreciate or value empathy is,they think well, isn't empathy
agreement?
I don't agree with them.
How can I empathize with them?
But empathy isn't agreement.
We define empathy as seeking tounderstand someone's thoughts,
(10:21):
their emotions and theirexperience so that they know
that they're deeply loved by God.
And it's not that you're notempathizing with them, meaning
that you are affirmingeverything that they believe.
You're just listening tounderstand their perceptions,
their experience.
That and another thing, anotherreasons why people maybe have
(10:46):
concern about empathy is thatthey're afraid that it's
coddling someone.
But empathy isn't coddlingsomebody else.
It's not going to fragilizethem.
It's actually empowering andrespectful to show that you care
about this person.
It's not rescuing people, nottrue empathy.
These are mistaken ideas aboutempathy, and I mistaken ideas
about empathy and I think thatthere's been a lot of confusion
(11:07):
about that, because sometimesempathy is misused to manipulate
people or even a politicalagenda, or sometimes people will
use empathy to get someself-indulgence.
One of the things that we writeabout in Deeply Loved receiving
and reflecting, reflectingGod's Great Empathy for you is
the difference between self-pityand empathy and the difference
(11:31):
between codependency and empathy, and there are some real
differences, but I think there'ssome confusion about this that
causes people to maybe be afraidof or distrust empathy,
especially if they don't havethat understanding.
One of the things we say isthat empathy isn't just gracious
, it's also gritty.
(11:52):
So we have a chapter titled theGrit and Grace of Empathy,
because empathy really helpspeople deal with hard truths in
their lives.
It helps them to take personalresponsibility so they can act
with wisdom and with love.
We have a formula that we writeabout in the book empathy plus
truth plus responsibility equalsgrowth.
Erin Nelson (12:16):
How would you define the difference between
empathy and codependency?
What are some kind of likehallmarks of what that might
look like?
Kristi Gaultiere (12:27):
Yeah, it's such an important thing for us
to consider.
Codependency is more when we'retaking on and feeling somebody
else's problems as our own,versus empathy is putting words
to what they feel.
It's not taking it on, it's ourresponsibility.
Codependency would becontrolled by other people's
(12:47):
needs, whereas empathy isletting other people be
responsible for their life, butyou're just joining them so they
know they're not alone withwhat they're feeling.
Codependency often comes froman insecurity or a low
self-esteem, whereas empathycomes from being secure in God's
love and joining him in hisempathy for the person you're
(13:07):
with.
Codependency is matchingsomebody's mood or reacting to
it, whereas empathy involvesregulating our own emotions as
we care for other people and aswe attune to them.
When we are codependent, we'lltend to deny our own needs and
emotions, but we're In trueempathy.
We're able to accept our ownemotions and needs because we
(13:29):
have good boundaries.
So we write about boundaries inthe book because that's so
important, and we write aboutstewarding your empathy, because
you're not going to be able tobe empathetic with everybody in
the whole world all the time, sowe need to steward it, we need
to have boundaries on it.
We need to be intentional withwhere we're giving our empathy.
(13:50):
Codependency rescues people fromtheir problems and empathy
shows tender concern for theirproblems, but it doesn't rescue
them.
Codependencies can be somethingwhere we're trying to make
other people feel appreciative.
And with empathy, instead oftrying to get appreciation for
being empathetic, we areaccepting people with no strings
(14:14):
attached.
We're not expecting somethingin return.
We're not trying to get our ownname out.
In codependency, we slip intodoing too much for other people
and in healthy empathy, werespect our own needs, limits
and boundaries.
In codependency, sometimes wecan be striving to be very
heroic and in empathy, we wantto be trusting Jesus ultimately
(14:39):
as the greatest help and we'rejust joining in His.
So we write about three-wayempathy God's empathy,
self-empathy and our own empathyempathy that we give.
Erin Nelson (14:50):
Thank you.
It's so helpful to really seethe difference between the two,
because I feel like sometimesthose lines can be easily
blurred, and to see that and toreally make the difference,
really be able to identify thedifference between codependency
and empathy is just so helpful.
So thank you so much forwriting about that.
(15:11):
You also wrote about the fourA's of empathy, Kristi, and how,
when you think about the fourA's of empathy, could you share
with our listeners how thosemight really help in when
they're grieving or when they'resuffering.
Kristi Gaultiere (15:29):
Yes.
Well, the four A's of empathyare simply ask, attune,
acknowledge and affirm.
Now let me unpack those alittle bit and apply them to
grief, as you asked.
When we ask somebody, we'regoing to be asking them really
good questions, like, maybeyou're going to be asking them
(15:50):
I'm wondering how you'reprocessing this grief or this
loss that you're journeyingthrough.
Would you want to share some ofwhat you're experiencing today?
I would be honored and happy tolisten and to seek to
understand your grief journey.
So you're inviting them to openup, to let you in, and when
(16:11):
they do begin to share, you'recontinuing and you're listening
with curiosity and you'recontinuing to ask good questions
, to invite more sharing andmore curiosity, to seek to
understand.
And then the second A as you'relistening, you attune to the
other person's emotions.
(16:31):
In other words, a lot of timeswe in our society will ask
somebody a question how are you?
And as they're answering, we'rekind of looking past them to
what's going on behind them orwho else is in the room or who
else wants to talk to us, andthey're not going to open up and
trust us rightly, so they knowwe're not attuned in to them.
So, with empathy, we reallywant to attune to the person's
(16:54):
presence and we want to noticetheir nonverbals and we want to
be fully present with them toyou know, what is the emotion
that they're feeling?
What is this experience like?
And then we want to try tocheck it out with our own words,
like and then we want to try tocheck it out with our own words
(17:16):
Wow, it seems like maybethey're in the bargaining season
of a phase of grief.
So maybe we say, oh, wow, itseems like you're really
wrestling with some hardquestions and even some regrets
and wanting to try to make moresense of what's happened to you.
Maybe we're putting some wordsto what we're hearing from them
in this wrestling, in thebargaining season of grief if
(17:36):
that's what it is.
But it shows that we're attunedto what that's like for them.
And then we want to number threeacknowledge the significance,
specifically for them.
So, for instance, Erin, if Iwas listening to you share your
story and I'm empathizing withyour story I would probably
(17:57):
acknowledge the significance ofyour grief with your most recent
loss of your adult son, thatthat grief is different from the
grief when you lost yourhusband, right, and I would
acknowledge the significance ofthat grief for you uniquely.
Yes, so it's showing when I'macknowledging the significance,
(18:24):
I'm acknowledging thepersonalness of this to you and
that there's somethingsignificant of why this is
really hard for you.
You've experienced loss of twosituations where it was sudden,
it was unpredictable, it was outof your control.
That's significant for you.
There's some trauma there foryou in your grief, and so I
would want to tune in to yourunique significance in your
(18:47):
grief, around your experience.
Erin Nelson (18:49):
Yeah, and that tuning in it just feels so
honoring, just because you'renaming something, that I'm
feeling, because you're noticingsomething and it really just
helps, like my grief, feelhonored and seen and so just
that's that leaning in of thatempathy that makes such a
difference.
Kristi Gaultiere (19:10):
Yes, that's right.
Another way I might acknowledgesignificance for you, if I was
having a conversation with youabout your experience with grief
, is to say, wow, you know,grief triggers grief.
So when something triggersgrief for you, the amount of
grief it triggers is going to bebigger because you've
experienced so much grief.
(19:30):
So if it's somebody who'ssharing a small loss like I lost
a sales deal that's still.
You know, there's still I careabout.
I'm going to empathize with thegrief, but I'm going to want to
acknowledge the significance.
If somebody let's say we'retogether and somebody shares
their bum they just lost a salesdeal and somebody else shares
(19:51):
they just lost a child Well,this is a much more significant
grief, doesn't discredit thedisappointment for the person
who lost the sales deal and Iwant to understand what losses
go with that and what they'refeeling.
But I also want to be sensitiveto how it feels for the person
in the room who just lost achild.
Yes, yes, so we'reacknowledging the significance.
(20:13):
That's appropriate, because notall of our emotions and
experiences are equal in theweight or in our experience of
the grief.
And then the fourth A is we wantto affirm the strength of the
person that we're giving empathyto, and it's really important
that we keep this forth.
If we rush to this and we dothis too soon, we will shut down
(20:34):
the emotions of the person thatwe're listening to, that we're
giving empathy to.
So sometimes we will be quickto affirm somebody's strength
because we're wanting to protectourselves from the pain of
empathizing with them.
You know it costs us somethingto really enter somebody's pain
and somebody's grief, and so ifyou find yourself rushing to
(20:55):
affirm, you might tune intoyourself because what's going on
here, what am I defendingagainst?
And it's really most helpful,most loving for the person that
we're giving empathy to, if wecould hold that affirmation to
the very last to make sure thatthey really feel listened to,
they really feel understood,they really feel empathized with
.
And we might even ask them youknow, thank you for sharing, is
(21:17):
there anything more that you'dlike me to understand before?
We would then affirm.
And then at the end, to affirmis important because if somebody
allows us to empathize withthem, they've been vulnerable,
they've shared somethingpersonal, something painful, and
so it really helps us whenwe've opened our souls to that
extent and been that vulnerable,if somebody can affirm
(21:38):
something good in us and so justsomething like even affirming
their courage to share, oraffirming their persistence to
get out of bed in the morning inthe midst of this terrible
grief, or to show up toJessica's House and to get
involved in community, which isso hard when you're depressed.
Those are the kinds of thingswe're talking about, when we
(22:00):
talk about affirming a strengththat's so good.
Erin Nelson (22:03):
Thank you.
Colleen Montague (22:03):
I love what you're saying, Kristi, about how
you can't rush to the affirming.
You know and that really goesalong very well with a lot that
we talk about here of just notrushing somebody to to that you
know part of it, or you know, Iknow you can do this, like you
can do hard things.
You know that that is not superhelpful.
(22:24):
You know, if you're not doingall of the other things as well
as like the acknowledgement andreally attuning to, you know
what they're showing you andjust I love that you're saying
that.
You know you also talk aboutself-empathy in your book.
Can you share with us why it'simportant for caregivers who
could be parents, counselors orother family members to really
(22:48):
practice empathy towardsthemselves when they're also
supporting a child who'sgrieving?
Kristi Gaultiere (22:53):
That's right and deeply loved our book.
We write about three-wayempathy receiving empathy from
God, from other people, andagreeing with it.
That self-empathy.
And sadly part of my story isthat for many years when
somebody gave me empathy, Ispoiled it.
I wasn't agreeing with it.
(23:14):
Inside, I had messages ofself-rejection going on no, I'm
just too emotional, no, I'm justtoo sensitive, no, I just need
to be stronger.
So it was kind of like havingmy foot on the gas pedal, on the
brake.
At the same time, there wasthis internal resistance in my
soul when somebody was giving meempathy, kind of like well, no,
I don't want them to view me asweak or fragile or needy, and
(23:37):
so I wasn't like reallyappreciating it and opening up
to be vulnerable and I wasn'tagreeing with it.
We call self-empathy Agreeingwith God's grace.
It's not saying poor me, it'snot self-pity.
Self-pity is false sympathy andit's a it's, it's suedo, it's.
It's not healing, it's nothelpful.
(23:57):
Self-pity it's that stirring upnegative emotion or playing the
victim, having a pity party.
That's not self-empathy.
Self-empathy isn't trying to hugyourself or find answers within
yourself.
No, it's not trying to hugyourself or find answers within
yourself.
No, it's agreeing with God'slove for you and coming from him
and from ambassadors of him,other people.
So without self-empathy, wedon't appreciate the empathy
(24:19):
that God and others give us andwe have unconscious resistances
to it.
And these unconsciousresistances, they lead us to
isolation, to surfacerelationships and then they keep
us from being able to giveempathy to other people or doing
it in a really codependent way,where we're trying to passively
get some connection onlythrough caring and enmeshing
(24:40):
with other people's needs.
So we say at Soul Shepherding,you'll get help when you and I
join God in caring for you.
You and I join God in caringfor you.
That's the three way Empathyand self-empathy is the piece of
that.
So we have empathy exercises inDeeply Loved and experiences
(25:00):
and tools for you for receivingempathy from God and
self-empathy, as well as givingand receiving empathy
interpersonally.
Colleen Montague (25:11):
I love that as well and you know a lot of what
we're trying to help our kidshere and parents to recognize is
just how they're doing, youknow, to be able to recognize
these different emotions ofgrief, and so I feel like that
self-empathy that's part of thatstep of recognizing it and
acknowledging it, letting it beinstead of, like you mentioned,
(25:33):
just pushing it away or feelinglike you're not allowed or it's
not okay to feel that way, butjust really opening yourself up
to the process in that, yeah,it's a silly illustration, but
let me share a personal story.
Kristi Gaultiere (25:46):
So I was traveling where we lead soul
shepherding retreats, and ofcourse we would love anyone in
your community to come on aretreat these are soul care
retreats.
And as I was traveling I had aheavy backpack.
And the next day, when I wokeup and was getting ready to go
teach, I was like, oh man, ouch,my back, my shoulders, my neck,
(26:08):
they're sore, they're stiff.
What's going on in here?
And I tuned in withself-empathy what did I do to
myself?
How did I get myself so sore?
And I realized, oh, my backpack.
Well, what's in my backpack?
And I began to look at my waterbottle, books, my leader's
guide that I use for theteaching, my computer.
(26:31):
Oh yeah, that was heavy.
And I had some self-empathy.
Okay, Christine, you carried alot of weight yesterday.
So go gentle with yourself,don't work out today.
Give yourself a rest day.
Give yourself a rest, letyourself kind of massage those
muscles a little bit, drinkextra water today, stretch, roll
your shoulders a little bit.
I had empathy for what I hadbared and this is very much what
(26:55):
we need to do, becauseoftentimes in our workload, in
our life, in ourresponsibilities, we're carrying
a heavy backpack and we mightjust be shaming for ourselves.
Why am I so tired, or why am Iso irritable, or why can't I
focus on my work?
Well, that's not self-empathy.
Instead, we need to maybe takea minute to reflect.
What am I carrying?
(27:15):
What's going on in me?
Can I have some empathy forthat?
Wow, that's really heavy.
Yeah, that's having an impacton me, even physically.
Colleen Montague (27:24):
It's a great analogy, very good.
Erin Nelson (27:27):
Yeah, I really like that, Kristi.
And something else I reallyappreciated was a story that you
told in the book about havingyour little granddaughter over
and she was spending the nightwith you and she was crying and
really sad and you were tryingeverything and then you just
(27:53):
stopped and you looked at herand you said you miss your mommy
, and so you put that into theroom.
And what does it do?
When you align with what you'reseeing and you really speak
what is into the room and bringthat kind of empathy, how does
that change what is going on?
Kristi Gaultiere (28:09):
How does that change what is going on.
It totally changed everythingwith her because she realized,
oh, gigi understands, gigi getsit that I miss mommy and that
I'm sad about that.
I don't have to try to get Gigito understand or get more
attention or cry about it.
She just settled right down andshe just leaned into me.
(28:32):
She was able to foster greatertrust and bonding for her with
me, that I understood she missedher mommy and that was okay.
And, yeah, mommy loves her somuch.
And it's sad, Ellie, that yourmommy can't be with you right
now and I understand that andmommy's going to be really happy
to see you tomorrow.
But it's hard right now, it'shard tonight, to not have her.
(28:53):
Yeah, and as I named, that shecould receive my empathy, that
you're no longer trying todistract her or make her feel
(29:13):
better, because it was kind ofunfixable in that moment.
Erin Nelson (29:18):
There was nothing that anyone could do to bring
her mommy back, but you could bewith her in that moment.
And it makes me think so muchabout the children that we're
serving every day that just needthat kind of empathy to just
say you know you miss your mommy, you miss your daddy, your
brother or sister, whatever itmight be, and to come into that
(29:40):
moment.
And we know that we can't fixit but we know that we can be
with.
And so you're really in thisbook, deeply Loved.
You're putting words to that andwhat it means to come into a
space where you're not afraid toname it, you're not afraid to
enter that moment with a child,and it really makes a difference
(30:02):
here at Jessica's House is kindof the anger that can come in
with an experience of grief.
And you know, something thatreally struck me is that you
(30:23):
talk about anger as kind of thisidea of it's you're trying to
will like to make what is wrongright again.
And I think about our familiesthat we're serving and the
listeners today that arelistening today and how that
might show up as energy and thatanger that you know.
You feel so disoriented becauseyou know your life was right
(30:49):
and now it doesn't feel rightanymore, and so there's anger
that comes up.
What can you say about theenergy of anger and how we can
express that and how empathy canhelp when we're feeling that
way?
Kristi Gaultiere (31:02):
Yeah, it's so important because anger is a
phase of grief.
It's an appropriate one.
Gary Shriver (31:07):
You have good reason to feel angry.
Kristi Gaultiere (31:10):
So we do have a chapter on governing anger
with love and we talk about thebenefits of healthy anger and
deeply love.
You know, anger is a way wherewe are trying to solve our
problems, reverse an injustice.
It's a way that we're trying tostrengthen our boundaries to be
safe and protected.
It's a way that we're trying tostrengthen our boundaries to be
safe and protected.
(31:31):
It's a way that we might haveanger against ourself and then
feel shame and depressed angerturned inward.
It's the kind of thing whereunderstanding our anger can help
us in processing forgiveness.
It's an important part of theforgiveness process, in
processing forgiveness.
(31:51):
It's an important part of theforgiveness process.
So we have an anger assessmentand we explore the psychology of
anger and misinterpretationsaround anger and the cycle of
anger.
You know, when there is anoffense or something that's
happened to us and our responseis feeling hurt and angry, it's
normal.
It's not something to judge orto be concerned about, but to
(32:11):
understand, and then thephysical aspect of that are
stress hormones and then we mayhave some angry reactions and
then feel guilty about that andthen that sometimes can even
increase our anger.
And so to be able to understandall those parts of our anger is
really, really important as wework it through.
(32:33):
Oftentimes.
One of the things we set up foryou is an experience to work
through the forays of empathyfor your anger and as you do
that, it can be very relievingof anger.
Empathy can disarm anger.
Erin Nelson (32:52):
Yeah, really entering into there's no shame,
and even feeling some of theseemotions that maybe you've never
felt like were welcome andaccepted, and so anger is one of
those that, yeah, you're likeyou're speaking to, that people
can feel shame about.
So, thank you.
Brad Quillen (33:17):
Hey, Kristi, this last weekend I was attending a
graveside and I picked up afriend of mine and we were
headed to the graveside and wewere we're just kind of briefly
talking as we were driving outand he just said, Brad, I never
know what to say or what to dowith these things.
Gary Shriver (33:27):
And he's just so.
Brad Quillen (33:28):
I just don't even like going, you know, and I said
, well, I just said to him, Isaid, rick, you know, what I've
learned over the years is not aton of things we can do, but we
can show up and that's one ofthe things that we, we, we can
do today for our buddy.
And so I know in your book youtalk about some practical tools
and deeply loved on what aresome of those things people can
do?
Because I think a lot of peopleare like I don't, I'm not a
(33:49):
counselor, I'm not a, you know,I don't specialize in that, but
how can people just just helpand show up for folks?
Kristi Gaultiere (33:56):
Yeah, well, one of those ways is just to
recognize the power of showingup.
Research research study that wecite in Deeply Loved, shows
that 74% of people don't feelbelonging in community.
And you know, and relationshipsreally matter to us.
We need them for our health.
We were created as relationalbeings or created in the image
(34:18):
of God, who is relational, andso we wanna help people know
they're loved and cared for byshowing up, by asking how
they're feeling, and be in amirror to reflect back their
emotions and ask questions toseek to understand as you listen
.
You can shoot up little prayers, you know, lord, care for my
friend, show me how to join youin helping them and loving them
(34:41):
and other practical tools.
We provide empathy 10 empathypractices.
We provide also some reallyhelpful things like how to
connect with Jesus' emotionsthere's 39 emotions we find in
the Gospels about Jesus andthat's been so helpful to me
when I am feeling emotionallyupset.
If I can connect to a time whenJesus experienced the same pain
(35:05):
, the same suffering, the sameemotion I'm feeling, it helps me
to feel his empathy, receivehis empathy and his love for me
in that place and then ways oflearning to be able to ask other
people for empathy and findinga safe place and an empathy
friend.
That's something that isimportant that we cover how to
find an empathetic friend.
(35:25):
We also have exercises onmindfulness and breath prayers
that can help you to be able toself-regulate and to calm.
So these are just some of thedifferent tools that we have
that will help someone be ableto walk through what they're
(35:46):
feeling, what they'reexperiencing in their season of
grief, and receive thatthree-way empathy that we write
about Kristi.
Colleen Montague (35:55):
what would you say to the friend or the
supporter who's just?
They don't even know where tostart because they're so afraid
of saying the wrong thing ordoing the wrong thing?
Kristi Gaultiere (36:05):
Yeah, well, that's understandable and I
appreciate their earnestness andwanting to be helpful and to be
loving.
And you really don't have tosay much If you're afraid of
saying the wrong thing.
You could just be quiet and youcould just listen and you can
just really seek to open yourheart, to be present with the
(36:26):
person.
And that's going to go a longway to be present with the
person, and that's going to go along way.
We don't have many safe placesto be able to show up and be
emotionally honest and sharewith somebody else, and even
just the gift of giving somebodythe chance to listen to
themselves, process out loud.
That's one of the reasons whyat Soul Shepherding we have
spiritual directors that canmeet with people on Zoom at any
(36:50):
time.
You can go onsoulshepherdingorg and you can
book an appointment with aspiritual director right now and
you can have a safe space ofsomebody who will listen to you,
process out loud.
And oftentimes when I'm meetingwith my spiritual director and
I'm sharing and I'm processingout loud, I'll realize, oh, I
didn't even know, I felt that, Iwasn't even aware, I was
feeling that until I heardmyself say it.
(37:11):
And even there's times whenI'll hear myself say something
when I'm processing with myspiritual director and I'll be
able to kind of self-correct.
You know what?
Oh, you know what?
That isn't really right.
I'm kind of like off in mythinking there.
I don't even need them to sayanything because I'm just just
that gift that they're attuningwith me.
They're present with me,they're praying silently for me
helps me to be able to agreewith and receive that three-way
(37:35):
empathy.
And so don't worry if you don'tfeel like you have any
expertise or you don't know whatto say.
That's not what's actually themost helpful.
It's most helpful just to knowthat you're present, that you
care, that you're with them,that you're listening.
Colleen Montague (37:50):
Yeah, good, like you're with them, that
you're listening.
Yeah, like you said, it allgoes back to that attuning
element of A.
It's just that it doesn'talways have to be with words.
So much of it is your postureand your body language and how
you show them you really areseeking to be alongside them and
to understand.
Kristi Gaultiere (38:06):
Yeah, and also to let them know that even if
you hit a point where you hityour limit, you start to get
overwhelmed or you start to shutdown, that you can even just
say to them you know, I'm sorry,I'm recognizing that I'm
starting to, you know, get alittle overwhelmed my own
emotions, or I'm just feelingreally tired.
I just want you to know that'snot about you and I really I
(38:28):
really love you, I really carefor you.
I really want you to get thiskind of empathy and care.
I'm sorry I can't continue togive it to you right now, but
I'd like to another time.
I'd like another chance to comeback, or I'd like to refer you
to this space where I know youcan get more.
Colleen Montague (38:45):
That speaks to having good boundaries around
empathy and knowing your ownlimits.
And, yeah, very true.
Kristi Gaultiere (38:52):
Because sometimes we won't give it
because we're afraid of hittingthat point.
So we write about that and howto give empathy without getting
drained in the book.
Erin Nelson (39:02):
I really like that, Kristi, because you mentioned
earlier just like being withyourself as you're with someone
else, and you can learn to dothat, to do both of those at the
same time.
That's right.
In the book you mentioned oneof my favorite authors, Henri
Nouwen, and his idea ofbefriending emotions, and many
(39:24):
of our listeners are parents whoare grieving while raising
children who are also grieving.
And how can our listeners learnto befriend their emotions and
then also model that for theirchildren, even in the midst of
grief?
Kristi Gaultiere (39:41):
Yeah, that is so important that we're able to
accept our emotions, not shameourselves for them, not judge
ourselves for them.
Because if we're doing that forour emotions, our children are
going to pick up on that andthey're going to hold back their
own emotions and figure well,if mom's judging herself for her
emotions, she's judging me formine.
(40:01):
If it's not okay for mom to beangry, it's not okay for me to
be angry.
If it's not okay for mom to besad, it's not okay for me to be
sad.
So we need to really realizethat the kids are very kids, are
very attuned in to theirparents, and so it's crucial
that we learn to befriend ouremotions and our grief, that we
accept them.
And you know, one of the keythings that has helped me to do
(40:25):
that is to receive empathy fromsomebody else who can befriend
my emotions, and to agree withJesus, who befriends my emotions
.
And look at the way Jesusbefriended his own emotions.
He lamented himself.
He didn't gloss over pain andpretend everything was okay when
it wasn't.
He wept over the tomb of hisfriend.
(40:47):
He cried over Jerusalem.
He felt the weight of sorrow.
He didn't rush to fix it.
Grief wasn't a threat to hisfaith.
It was an expression of hislove, and he accepted help from
other people.
And so that helps me torecognize that Jesus, even being
the Son of God, didn't try todo life alone.
He received friendship andhospitality and prayer and
(41:08):
financial support.
He let people care for him, hehumbled himself and trusted.
Then I can do that.
Or if I look the way that heprocessed his emotions and
prayers and poured out his heartto his father when he was
overwhelmed, he didn't just sayhe shouldn't feel that way, he
said what he really felt.
He let his Heavenly Father intothe depths of his pain and
(41:30):
found strength there.
I can do that too.
And he didn't live withoutlimits.
Jesus set boundaries, and wehave a whole Bible study on that
in the book.
He knew his limits.
He didn't apologize for hisneed to rest.
He regularly withdrew to quietplaces away from the crowd so he
could rest and pray and be withhis father.
(41:52):
These are kinds of things I canlearn from him and I can do as
well.
Erin Nelson (41:57):
Yeah, really just practicing.
Doesn't it take practice tocontinue to look to him and how
he modeled this and justpractice.
And I know even on your soulshepherding website, there are
so many practices that we couldlearn from as well.
Brad Quillen (42:14):
Yes, Kristi, as we start to wrap up.
I know there's been a.
You've shared a lot and I'mvery thankful because I've been
writing notes over here asyou've been talking.
But if I could ask you to sumup or phrase what's what?
What would you want ourlisteners to take away about
empathy and grief?
I know it's kind of a loadedquestion in some ways, because
you've said a lot and there'sbeen a lot of good stuff in
(42:36):
there, but if you kind ofwrapped it into one phrase or
one kind of idea, what would yousay?
Kristi Gaultiere (42:42):
Well, what I would say is that I am sad for
you and the grief and the lossthat you're experiencing and the
pain you're navigating for.
And I have hope for you,because I've been through the
journey and I've received thecare and the empathy and I've
processed through the phases ofgrief and I've come out as a
wounded healer and that's goingto be the opportunity for you
(43:06):
where your pain and your lossand your grief can be redeemed
and you're going to have aspecial and greater empathy for
others' pain because you have anexperiential knowledge now of
the depth of pain and loss andgrief and of the breadth of
emotions and the complicationsof emotions and you're going to
be able to articulate better inempathy for other people who
(43:30):
need that care and that giftgoing forward.
And that's going to becomesomething that you're going to
actually be able to look backfor and find joy in as you
journey with other people and asyou see that you get to be part
of their healing story.
Erin Nelson (43:46):
Thank you so much, and where can our listeners just
find more information aboutyour work, and also the book
Deeply Loved?
And you have other works aswell, and share with us where
listeners can connect with you.
Kristi Gaultiere (44:02):
Thank you.
Well, at Soul Shepherding welove to provide resources and
care and training care andtraining and so you can find out
all about any of our otherresources, our care of spiritual
direction, our training inspiritual direction at
soulshepherdingorg.
And if you want moreinformation about Deeply Loved
the book, you can go tosoulshepherding.
org/ deeply loved book and youcan purchase the book anywhere
(44:27):
the books are sold.
If they don't have it in stock,they can order it, and it's
also available on Amazon or anymajor bookseller as well,
because it is with a majorpublisher, so you should have no
trouble finding and orderingthe book.
Colleen Montague (44:42):
That's great Kristi.
Thank you so much for thewisdom that you shared with us
today.
I have some nuggets that I'mgoing to take with me that.
I learned from you and I'm justeager to continue learning more
, and I'm just grateful for thework that you and Bill are doing
to help us all become betterhumans, not only to others in
(45:03):
our life, but to ourselves too.
So thank you Well.
Kristi Gaultiere (45:07):
You're welcome and thank you.
We're so grateful to be friendsand partners together in this
work.
Thank you so welcome and thankyou.
We're so grateful to be friendsand partners together in this
work.
Erin Nelson (45:13):
Thank you so much and thank you for being here and
we're just grateful for all youdo and it was so so nice to
have this time with you, thankyou.
Brad Quillen (45:22):
Erin and Colleen.
This is so good today and thisis such a needed conversation.
We could spend a lot more timeon this.
I know we all thought thatgoing into it, but I sure
appreciate being here with youguys today.
Erin Nelson (45:33):
Thanks, Brad.
Brad Quillen (45:38):
Erin, I know there's something you wanted to
share with our listeners today,as we wrap up this podcast.
Why don't you go ahead and takea moment.
Erin Nelson (45:41):
Just as our listeners have given us really
great feedback, I just want tosay if you could just take a
moment to rate our podcast andalso write a review.
It helps get it into the handsof those who need it most, and
so every time you review apodcast, it goes up a little bit
(46:02):
into ratings, and so ifsomebody just types in grief in
a podcast search, they can findthis podcast and, as we know
that it's been so helpful forparents who are grieving, we
want to get it into more hands.
So please rate and review.
Brad Quillen (46:19):
Thanks, Erin, and let me remind you be sure to
visit jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources andif you have any other topics or
questions you'd like us tocover on this podcast, we
welcome your email at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us for the nextepisode of When Grief Comes
Home.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (46:41):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(47:03):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(47:25):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
Hello and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding Executive Director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, Program
Director for Jessica's House anda Licensed Marriage and Family
Therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Comes Home is now available atall major book retailers.
(00:47):
Now let's go to the team asthey share grief resources and
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (01:01):
Hello.
I'm Brad Quillen, joined by myco-hosts Erin Nelson and
Colleen Montague.
Today, we're honored to havewith Kristi Gaultiere, a
licensed marriage and familytherapist who, along with her
husband Bill, have beencounseling and ministering to
people for over 30 years.
Erin, Colleen, let's jump rightinto this podcast.
(01:24):
Erin, you want to start us off?
Erin Nelson (01:26):
Well, Kristi, we are so glad to have you today
and we're so excited about thisnew book that you wrote with
Bill and it's called DeeplyLoved, and you and Bill have a
ministry called Soul Shepherding, and we're just so glad to have
you here on our podcast today.
Kristi Gaultiere (01:45):
Thank you so much, Erin and Colleen.
I'm thrilled to be with you andso grateful for those that are
tuning in to listen, and it's myhonor to share what I have been
so blessed to know and hashelped and been so healing for
me personally.
Erin Nelson (02:01):
I also just really resonate with the healing that
can come when you have aperson's empathetic presence in
your life, and what a differenceit makes to be really seen and
loved and be met with empathy.
And so in our listeners we haveso many people that are tuning
(02:21):
in because they're grieving, andso we'll talk a little bit
about that and how this empathycan really be healing for them,
and so we'll go ahead and getstarted.
But I just wanted to ask howhave you seen the ministry of
empathy bring comfort to thosewho may be grieving?
Kristi Gaultiere (02:42):
Well, it's a tremendous comfort because we
have studied much about empathyand even the way that our body
responds to empathy.
There's been studies one of therecent continuing education
courses that I did was onneuropsychology and it was
showing that when we arevulnerable with someone, if they
don't respond with empathy, theshame centers of our brain
(03:04):
actually light up and there areall kinds of emotional barriers
that actually will get in theway of our grief if we are not
having a safe place to processit and a safe person who will
attune to our emotions, who willlisten to us with interest and
(03:24):
who will respond with accurateand healing empathy.
But when we receive thatempathy, it is so empowering for
us and so freeing for us.
Oftentimes, just even in my ownexperience, because I too am a
person working through grief I,in the last three years I've
lost my brother, my mother andnow my brother-in-law from
(03:48):
cancer, and my brother-in-lawactually is still under
treatment, but he has stage fourpancreatic cancer and it's not
looking good.
And in my own grief, as I sharemy grief, as I'm journeying
with them, as I've beenintimately involved in every
phase of their process, fromdiagnosis through treatment and
(04:09):
after their passing, is I sharemy grief.
I notice a huge difference whensomebody rushes to give me
sympathy, maybe oh yes, I knowexactly how you feel and they
start to talk about themselvesand it just kind of shuts me
down and I feel like I need toshow up for them.
Or if somebody begins to giveme advice well, you know what
really helped me when I wentthrough that is it kind of shuts
(04:30):
me down, shuts down my emotions.
But when somebody reallyattunes to me with empathy and
says I'm really sad for you,tell me more, and they're
interested and they're tuned into my nonverbal communication,
to my emotions, and they beginto use words to mirror back to
me, using their own words, thatI know, like, oh, this person
(04:52):
understands and get it.
Oh, I think they know somethingabout grief.
Oh, you know, I'm feeling likethey really care.
I'm not feeling so alone.
Oh, this burden is feelinglighter.
Oh, I'm open.
I'm beginning to get some newinsights.
Erin Nelson (05:11):
It changes everything.
It changes everything and youcan really feel just the genuine
nature of being met with thatreflection.
And here at Jessica's House wetalk so much about reflection
and what it means to welcomesomeone wherever they are in
their grief, and we can reflectback their words and mirror kind
of their energy to just be withthem and that's really kind of
(05:36):
the heart of what we do everyday.
And so thank you so much forsharing a little bit more about
how somebody might be met withempathy.
Kristi Gaultiere (05:46):
It's so important and we kind of know
the old adage I don't care whatyou know if I don't know that
you care.
And empathy is a way of feelinglike somebody cares.
If somebody's giving me empathy, I know they care and then I'm
going to be more open to whatthey know.
And I think the way that you atJessica's House give empathy to
(06:09):
the people that you're caringfor, and even, I'm sure, the
people that tune into yourpodcast and read your book,
receive empathy from you.
It helps them to lean in toreceive more from your expertise
as well.
Erin Nelson (06:21):
Yeah, and it's just .
There's something about amovement of healing that happens
when you receive that empathy,and I think even for the person
that is giving the empathy andis present, there's just
something about the flow of thatthat can just because you know
so much of what you talk aboutin your book is that it really
(06:45):
comes from God.
So you're really in that flowof God and how he's inside of
you and how you're able to bringthat to someone.
That's right.
Kristi Gaultiere (06:57):
In 1 John 4, verse 7, we read that we love
because God first loved us andwe empathize because God first
empathizes with us.
We have a God, a Savior, inJesus Christ, who came to
empathize with us.
Hebrews 4.15 says we do nothave a high priest who's unable
(07:19):
to empathize with us, but onewho's been tempted, tested,
tried in every way we have.
He became human and understood.
He experienced the grief andloss of his father Joseph, his
earthly father, at a young age,and of his cousin, john the
Baptist, and he lived in a timewhere there was so much grief,
under Roman occupation, and hewas poor and he knew so many
(07:44):
griefs and was well acquaintedwith grief.
Even scripture tells us, and soJesus has this personal empathy
for us in our trials, in ourloss, in our pain.
He knew pain.
Erin Nelson (07:56):
Yes, he did, and he's our best model to really
watch how he lived and to embodythat.
That's right.
Colleen Montague (08:06):
Kristi, you describe empathy as oxygen for
the soul.
Can you help our listeners whoare supporting grieving children
and families understand whyempathy is so crucial during
times of loss?
Kristi Gaultiere (08:19):
Well.
Thank you, Colleen.
Research shows.
There's a lot of research onthe power of oxygen right now.
It empowers us, it increasesour energy.
It reduces our fatigue.
We sleep better when we'rewell-oxygenated.
It improves our concentrationand our performance.
It's the same way with empathy.
I can say that empathy empowersme, it increases my energy.
(08:41):
It reduces my fatigue.
I sleep better when I'vereceived empathy because I'm not
processing all my emotions andanxious dreams.
It improves my concentrationbecause I'm not distracted by
all these emotions that are, youknow, dysregulating me or that
I'm trying to use energy torepress.
My performance is betterbecause I don't feel alone.
I feel supported by empathy.
(09:01):
You know, if you grew up in asmoggy city, you kind of adapt
to it.
You don't even notice the smog.
I grew up in SouthernCalifornia.
When I married Bill and hemoved here from the country, he
couldn't breathe.
It hurt his lungs to breathebecause of the smog and I didn't
know what I was missing becauseI'd never had clear air.
But he did.
And it's kind of like that withempathy.
(09:23):
Many of us have been living inan empathy desert where we
haven't experienced it.
We don't even know what it'slike.
But then when we begin tobreathe and receive empathy.
It's like this oxygen for oursoul and it's so helpful and
empowering it makes such a hugedifference for us.
Brad Quillen (09:42):
Hey, Kristi, speaking of empathy, in your
book you guys mentioned the ideathat some people criticize
empathy as it's being too softor too easy.
You know enables people to kindof stay where they're at, but
how do you respond to that?
Like, what do you and Bill sayabout that?
Kristi Gaultiere (09:58):
Well, thank you, Brad.
That is important.
I think there is a lot ofmisconceptions about empathy.
One of the things that's a bigthing that causes people to not
appreciate or value empathy is,they think well, isn't empathy
agreement?
I don't agree with them.
How can I empathize with them?
But empathy isn't agreement.
We define empathy as seeking tounderstand someone's thoughts,
(10:21):
their emotions and theirexperience so that they know
that they're deeply loved by God.
And it's not that you're notempathizing with them, meaning
that you are affirmingeverything that they believe.
You're just listening tounderstand their perceptions,
their experience.
That and another thing, anotherreasons why people maybe have
(10:46):
concern about empathy is thatthey're afraid that it's
coddling someone.
But empathy isn't coddlingsomebody else.
It's not going to fragilizethem.
It's actually empowering andrespectful to show that you care
about this person.
It's not rescuing people, nottrue empathy.
These are mistaken ideas aboutempathy, and I mistaken ideas
about empathy and I think thatthere's been a lot of confusion
(11:07):
about that, because sometimesempathy is misused to manipulate
people or even a politicalagenda, or sometimes people will
use empathy to get someself-indulgence.
One of the things that we writeabout in Deeply Loved receiving
and reflecting, reflectingGod's Great Empathy for you is
the difference between self-pityand empathy and the difference
(11:31):
between codependency and empathy, and there are some real
differences, but I think there'ssome confusion about this that
causes people to maybe be afraidof or distrust empathy,
especially if they don't havethat understanding.
One of the things we say isthat empathy isn't just gracious
, it's also gritty.
(11:52):
So we have a chapter titled theGrit and Grace of Empathy,
because empathy really helpspeople deal with hard truths in
their lives.
It helps them to take personalresponsibility so they can act
with wisdom and with love.
We have a formula that we writeabout in the book empathy plus
truth plus responsibility equalsgrowth.
Erin Nelson (12:16):
How would you define the difference between
empathy and codependency?
What are some kind of likehallmarks of what that might
look like?
Kristi Gaultiere (12:27):
Yeah, it's such an important thing for us
to consider.
Codependency is more when we'retaking on and feeling somebody
else's problems as our own,versus empathy is putting words
to what they feel.
It's not taking it on, it's ourresponsibility.
Codependency would becontrolled by other people's
(12:47):
needs, whereas empathy isletting other people be
responsible for their life, butyou're just joining them so they
know they're not alone withwhat they're feeling.
Codependency often comes froman insecurity or a low
self-esteem, whereas empathycomes from being secure in God's
love and joining him in hisempathy for the person you're
(13:07):
with.
Codependency is matchingsomebody's mood or reacting to
it, whereas empathy involvesregulating our own emotions as
we care for other people and aswe attune to them.
When we are codependent, we'lltend to deny our own needs and
emotions, but we're In trueempathy.
We're able to accept our ownemotions and needs because we
(13:29):
have good boundaries.
So we write about boundaries inthe book because that's so
important, and we write aboutstewarding your empathy, because
you're not going to be able tobe empathetic with everybody in
the whole world all the time, sowe need to steward it, we need
to have boundaries on it.
We need to be intentional withwhere we're giving our empathy.
(13:50):
Codependency rescues people fromtheir problems and empathy
shows tender concern for theirproblems, but it doesn't rescue
them.
Codependencies can be somethingwhere we're trying to make
other people feel appreciative.
And with empathy, instead oftrying to get appreciation for
being empathetic, we areaccepting people with no strings
(14:14):
attached.
We're not expecting somethingin return.
We're not trying to get our ownname out.
In codependency, we slip intodoing too much for other people
and in healthy empathy, werespect our own needs, limits
and boundaries.
In codependency, sometimes wecan be striving to be very
heroic and in empathy, we wantto be trusting Jesus ultimately
(14:39):
as the greatest help and we'rejust joining in His.
So we write about three-wayempathy God's empathy,
self-empathy and our own empathyempathy that we give.
Erin Nelson (14:50):
Thank you.
It's so helpful to really seethe difference between the two,
because I feel like sometimesthose lines can be easily
blurred, and to see that and toreally make the difference,
really be able to identify thedifference between codependency
and empathy is just so helpful.
So thank you so much forwriting about that.
(15:11):
You also wrote about the fourA's of empathy, Kristi, and how,
when you think about the fourA's of empathy, could you share
with our listeners how thosemight really help in when
they're grieving or when they'resuffering.
Kristi Gaultiere (15:29):
Yes.
Well, the four A's of empathyare simply ask, attune,
acknowledge and affirm.
Now let me unpack those alittle bit and apply them to
grief, as you asked.
When we ask somebody, we'regoing to be asking them really
good questions, like, maybeyou're going to be asking them
(15:50):
I'm wondering how you'reprocessing this grief or this
loss that you're journeyingthrough.
Would you want to share some ofwhat you're experiencing today?
I would be honored and happy tolisten and to seek to
understand your grief journey.
So you're inviting them to openup, to let you in, and when
(16:11):
they do begin to share, you'recontinuing and you're listening
with curiosity and you'recontinuing to ask good questions
, to invite more sharing andmore curiosity, to seek to
understand.
And then the second A as you'relistening, you attune to the
other person's emotions.
(16:31):
In other words, a lot of timeswe in our society will ask
somebody a question how are you?
And as they're answering, we'rekind of looking past them to
what's going on behind them orwho else is in the room or who
else wants to talk to us, andthey're not going to open up and
trust us rightly, so they knowwe're not attuned in to them.
So, with empathy, we reallywant to attune to the person's
(16:54):
presence and we want to noticetheir nonverbals and we want to
be fully present with them toyou know, what is the emotion
that they're feeling?
What is this experience like?
And then we want to try tocheck it out with our own words,
like and then we want to try tocheck it out with our own words
(17:16):
Wow, it seems like maybethey're in the bargaining season
of a phase of grief.
So maybe we say, oh, wow, itseems like you're really
wrestling with some hardquestions and even some regrets
and wanting to try to make moresense of what's happened to you.
Maybe we're putting some wordsto what we're hearing from them
in this wrestling, in thebargaining season of grief if
(17:36):
that's what it is.
But it shows that we're attunedto what that's like for them.
And then we want to number threeacknowledge the significance,
specifically for them.
So, for instance, Erin, if Iwas listening to you share your
story and I'm empathizing withyour story I would probably
(17:57):
acknowledge the significance ofyour grief with your most recent
loss of your adult son, thatthat grief is different from the
grief when you lost yourhusband, right, and I would
acknowledge the significance ofthat grief for you uniquely.
Yes, so it's showing when I'macknowledging the significance,
(18:24):
I'm acknowledging thepersonalness of this to you and
that there's somethingsignificant of why this is
really hard for you.
You've experienced loss of twosituations where it was sudden,
it was unpredictable, it was outof your control.
That's significant for you.
There's some trauma there foryou in your grief, and so I
would want to tune in to yourunique significance in your
(18:47):
grief, around your experience.
Erin Nelson (18:49):
Yeah, and that tuning in it just feels so
honoring, just because you'renaming something, that I'm
feeling, because you're noticingsomething and it really just
helps, like my grief, feelhonored and seen and so just
that's that leaning in of thatempathy that makes such a
difference.
Kristi Gaultiere (19:10):
Yes, that's right.
Another way I might acknowledgesignificance for you, if I was
having a conversation with youabout your experience with grief
, is to say, wow, you know,grief triggers grief.
So when something triggersgrief for you, the amount of
grief it triggers is going to bebigger because you've
experienced so much grief.
(19:30):
So if it's somebody who'ssharing a small loss like I lost
a sales deal that's still.
You know, there's still I careabout.
I'm going to empathize with thegrief, but I'm going to want to
acknowledge the significance.
If somebody let's say we'retogether and somebody shares
their bum they just lost a salesdeal and somebody else shares
(19:51):
they just lost a child Well,this is a much more significant
grief, doesn't discredit thedisappointment for the person
who lost the sales deal and Iwant to understand what losses
go with that and what they'refeeling.
But I also want to be sensitiveto how it feels for the person
in the room who just lost achild.
Yes, yes, so we'reacknowledging the significance.
(20:13):
That's appropriate, because notall of our emotions and
experiences are equal in theweight or in our experience of
the grief.
And then the fourth A is we wantto affirm the strength of the
person that we're giving empathyto, and it's really important
that we keep this forth.
If we rush to this and we dothis too soon, we will shut down
(20:34):
the emotions of the person thatwe're listening to, that we're
giving empathy to.
So sometimes we will be quickto affirm somebody's strength
because we're wanting to protectourselves from the pain of
empathizing with them.
You know it costs us somethingto really enter somebody's pain
and somebody's grief, and so ifyou find yourself rushing to
(20:55):
affirm, you might tune intoyourself because what's going on
here, what am I defendingagainst?
And it's really most helpful,most loving for the person that
we're giving empathy to, if wecould hold that affirmation to
the very last to make sure thatthey really feel listened to,
they really feel understood,they really feel empathized with
.
And we might even ask them youknow, thank you for sharing, is
(21:17):
there anything more that you'dlike me to understand before?
We would then affirm.
And then at the end, to affirmis important because if somebody
allows us to empathize withthem, they've been vulnerable,
they've shared somethingpersonal, something painful, and
so it really helps us whenwe've opened our souls to that
extent and been that vulnerable,if somebody can affirm
(21:38):
something good in us and so justsomething like even affirming
their courage to share, oraffirming their persistence to
get out of bed in the morning inthe midst of this terrible
grief, or to show up toJessica's House and to get
involved in community, which isso hard when you're depressed.
Those are the kinds of thingswe're talking about, when we
(22:00):
talk about affirming a strengththat's so good.
Erin Nelson (22:03):
Thank you.
Colleen Montague (22:03):
I love what you're saying, Kristi, about how
you can't rush to the affirming.
You know and that really goesalong very well with a lot that
we talk about here of just notrushing somebody to to that you
know part of it, or you know, Iknow you can do this, like you
can do hard things.
You know that that is not superhelpful.
(22:24):
You know, if you're not doingall of the other things as well
as like the acknowledgement andreally attuning to, you know
what they're showing you andjust I love that you're saying
that.
You know you also talk aboutself-empathy in your book.
Can you share with us why it'simportant for caregivers who
could be parents, counselors orother family members to really
(22:48):
practice empathy towardsthemselves when they're also
supporting a child who'sgrieving?
Kristi Gaultiere (22:53):
That's right and deeply loved our book.
We write about three-wayempathy receiving empathy from
God, from other people, andagreeing with it.
That self-empathy.
And sadly part of my story isthat for many years when
somebody gave me empathy, Ispoiled it.
I wasn't agreeing with it.
(23:14):
Inside, I had messages ofself-rejection going on no, I'm
just too emotional, no, I'm justtoo sensitive, no, I just need
to be stronger.
So it was kind of like havingmy foot on the gas pedal, on the
brake.
At the same time, there wasthis internal resistance in my
soul when somebody was giving meempathy, kind of like well, no,
I don't want them to view me asweak or fragile or needy, and
(23:37):
so I wasn't like reallyappreciating it and opening up
to be vulnerable and I wasn'tagreeing with it.
We call self-empathy Agreeingwith God's grace.
It's not saying poor me, it'snot self-pity.
Self-pity is false sympathy andit's a it's, it's suedo, it's.
It's not healing, it's nothelpful.
(23:57):
Self-pity it's that stirring upnegative emotion or playing the
victim, having a pity party.
That's not self-empathy.
Self-empathy isn't trying to hugyourself or find answers within
yourself.
No, it's not trying to hugyourself or find answers within
yourself.
No, it's agreeing with God'slove for you and coming from him
and from ambassadors of him,other people.
So without self-empathy, wedon't appreciate the empathy
(24:19):
that God and others give us andwe have unconscious resistances
to it.
And these unconsciousresistances, they lead us to
isolation, to surfacerelationships and then they keep
us from being able to giveempathy to other people or doing
it in a really codependent way,where we're trying to passively
get some connection onlythrough caring and enmeshing
(24:40):
with other people's needs.
So we say at Soul Shepherding,you'll get help when you and I
join God in caring for you.
You and I join God in caringfor you.
That's the three way Empathyand self-empathy is the piece of
that.
So we have empathy exercises inDeeply Loved and experiences
(25:00):
and tools for you for receivingempathy from God and
self-empathy, as well as givingand receiving empathy
interpersonally.
Colleen Montague (25:11):
I love that as well and you know a lot of what
we're trying to help our kidshere and parents to recognize is
just how they're doing, youknow, to be able to recognize
these different emotions ofgrief, and so I feel like that
self-empathy that's part of thatstep of recognizing it and
acknowledging it, letting it beinstead of, like you mentioned,
(25:33):
just pushing it away or feelinglike you're not allowed or it's
not okay to feel that way, butjust really opening yourself up
to the process in that, yeah,it's a silly illustration, but
let me share a personal story.
Kristi Gaultiere (25:46):
So I was traveling where we lead soul
shepherding retreats, and ofcourse we would love anyone in
your community to come on aretreat these are soul care
retreats.
And as I was traveling I had aheavy backpack.
And the next day, when I wokeup and was getting ready to go
teach, I was like, oh man, ouch,my back, my shoulders, my neck,
(26:08):
they're sore, they're stiff.
What's going on in here?
And I tuned in withself-empathy what did I do to
myself?
How did I get myself so sore?
And I realized, oh, my backpack.
Well, what's in my backpack?
And I began to look at my waterbottle, books, my leader's
guide that I use for theteaching, my computer.
(26:31):
Oh yeah, that was heavy.
And I had some self-empathy.
Okay, Christine, you carried alot of weight yesterday.
So go gentle with yourself,don't work out today.
Give yourself a rest day.
Give yourself a rest, letyourself kind of massage those
muscles a little bit, drinkextra water today, stretch, roll
your shoulders a little bit.
I had empathy for what I hadbared and this is very much what
(26:55):
we need to do, becauseoftentimes in our workload, in
our life, in ourresponsibilities, we're carrying
a heavy backpack and we mightjust be shaming for ourselves.
Why am I so tired, or why am Iso irritable, or why can't I
focus on my work?
Well, that's not self-empathy.
Instead, we need to maybe takea minute to reflect.
What am I carrying?
(27:15):
What's going on in me?
Can I have some empathy forthat?
Wow, that's really heavy.
Yeah, that's having an impacton me, even physically.
Colleen Montague (27:24):
It's a great analogy, very good.
Erin Nelson (27:27):
Yeah, I really like that, Kristi.
And something else I reallyappreciated was a story that you
told in the book about havingyour little granddaughter over
and she was spending the nightwith you and she was crying and
really sad and you were tryingeverything and then you just
(27:53):
stopped and you looked at herand you said you miss your mommy
, and so you put that into theroom.
And what does it do?
When you align with what you'reseeing and you really speak
what is into the room and bringthat kind of empathy, how does
that change what is going on?
Kristi Gaultiere (28:09):
How does that change what is going on.
It totally changed everythingwith her because she realized,
oh, gigi understands, gigi getsit that I miss mommy and that
I'm sad about that.
I don't have to try to get Gigito understand or get more
attention or cry about it.
She just settled right down andshe just leaned into me.
(28:32):
She was able to foster greatertrust and bonding for her with
me, that I understood she missedher mommy and that was okay.
And, yeah, mommy loves her somuch.
And it's sad, Ellie, that yourmommy can't be with you right
now and I understand that andmommy's going to be really happy
to see you tomorrow.
But it's hard right now, it'shard tonight, to not have her.
(28:53):
Yeah, and as I named, that shecould receive my empathy, that
you're no longer trying todistract her or make her feel
(29:13):
better, because it was kind ofunfixable in that moment.
Erin Nelson (29:18):
There was nothing that anyone could do to bring
her mommy back, but you could bewith her in that moment.
And it makes me think so muchabout the children that we're
serving every day that just needthat kind of empathy to just
say you know you miss your mommy, you miss your daddy, your
brother or sister, whatever itmight be, and to come into that
(29:40):
moment.
And we know that we can't fixit but we know that we can be
with.
And so you're really in thisbook, deeply Loved.
You're putting words to that andwhat it means to come into a
space where you're not afraid toname it, you're not afraid to
enter that moment with a child,and it really makes a difference
(30:02):
here at Jessica's House is kindof the anger that can come in
with an experience of grief.
And you know, something thatreally struck me is that you
(30:23):
talk about anger as kind of thisidea of it's you're trying to
will like to make what is wrongright again.
And I think about our familiesthat we're serving and the
listeners today that arelistening today and how that
might show up as energy and thatanger that you know.
You feel so disoriented becauseyou know your life was right
(30:49):
and now it doesn't feel rightanymore, and so there's anger
that comes up.
What can you say about theenergy of anger and how we can
express that and how empathy canhelp when we're feeling that
way?
Kristi Gaultiere (31:02):
Yeah, it's so important because anger is a
phase of grief.
It's an appropriate one.
Gary Shriver (31:07):
You have good reason to feel angry.
Kristi Gaultiere (31:10):
So we do have a chapter on governing anger
with love and we talk about thebenefits of healthy anger and
deeply love.
You know, anger is a way wherewe are trying to solve our
problems, reverse an injustice.
It's a way that we're trying tostrengthen our boundaries to be
safe and protected.
It's a way that we're trying tostrengthen our boundaries to be
safe and protected.
(31:31):
It's a way that we might haveanger against ourself and then
feel shame and depressed angerturned inward.
It's the kind of thing whereunderstanding our anger can help
us in processing forgiveness.
It's an important part of theforgiveness process, in
processing forgiveness.
(31:51):
It's an important part of theforgiveness process.
So we have an anger assessmentand we explore the psychology of
anger and misinterpretationsaround anger and the cycle of
anger.
You know, when there is anoffense or something that's
happened to us and our responseis feeling hurt and angry, it's
normal.
It's not something to judge orto be concerned about, but to
(32:11):
understand, and then thephysical aspect of that are
stress hormones and then we mayhave some angry reactions and
then feel guilty about that andthen that sometimes can even
increase our anger.
And so to be able to understandall those parts of our anger is
really, really important as wework it through.
(32:33):
Oftentimes.
One of the things we set up foryou is an experience to work
through the forays of empathyfor your anger and as you do
that, it can be very relievingof anger.
Empathy can disarm anger.
Erin Nelson (32:52):
Yeah, really entering into there's no shame,
and even feeling some of theseemotions that maybe you've never
felt like were welcome andaccepted, and so anger is one of
those that, yeah, you're likeyou're speaking to, that people
can feel shame about.
So, thank you.
Brad Quillen (33:17):
Hey, Kristi, this last weekend I was attending a
graveside and I picked up afriend of mine and we were
headed to the graveside and wewere we're just kind of briefly
talking as we were driving outand he just said, Brad, I never
know what to say or what to dowith these things.
Gary Shriver (33:27):
And he's just so.
Brad Quillen (33:28):
I just don't even like going, you know, and I said
, well, I just said to him, Isaid, rick, you know, what I've
learned over the years is not aton of things we can do, but we
can show up and that's one ofthe things that we, we, we can
do today for our buddy.
And so I know in your book youtalk about some practical tools
and deeply loved on what aresome of those things people can
do?
Because I think a lot of peopleare like I don't, I'm not a
(33:49):
counselor, I'm not a, you know,I don't specialize in that, but
how can people just just helpand show up for folks?
Kristi Gaultiere (33:56):
Yeah, well, one of those ways is just to
recognize the power of showingup.
Research research study that wecite in Deeply Loved, shows
that 74% of people don't feelbelonging in community.
And you know, and relationshipsreally matter to us.
We need them for our health.
We were created as relationalbeings or created in the image
(34:18):
of God, who is relational, andso we wanna help people know
they're loved and cared for byshowing up, by asking how
they're feeling, and be in amirror to reflect back their
emotions and ask questions toseek to understand as you listen
.
You can shoot up little prayers, you know, lord, care for my
friend, show me how to join youin helping them and loving them
(34:41):
and other practical tools.
We provide empathy 10 empathypractices.
We provide also some reallyhelpful things like how to
connect with Jesus' emotionsthere's 39 emotions we find in
the Gospels about Jesus andthat's been so helpful to me
when I am feeling emotionallyupset.
If I can connect to a time whenJesus experienced the same pain
(35:05):
, the same suffering, the sameemotion I'm feeling, it helps me
to feel his empathy, receivehis empathy and his love for me
in that place and then ways oflearning to be able to ask other
people for empathy and findinga safe place and an empathy
friend.
That's something that isimportant that we cover how to
find an empathetic friend.
(35:25):
We also have exercises onmindfulness and breath prayers
that can help you to be able toself-regulate and to calm.
So these are just some of thedifferent tools that we have
that will help someone be ableto walk through what they're
(35:46):
feeling, what they'reexperiencing in their season of
grief, and receive thatthree-way empathy that we write
about Kristi.
Colleen Montague (35:55):
what would you say to the friend or the
supporter who's just?
They don't even know where tostart because they're so afraid
of saying the wrong thing ordoing the wrong thing?
Kristi Gaultiere (36:05):
Yeah, well, that's understandable and I
appreciate their earnestness andwanting to be helpful and to be
loving.
And you really don't have tosay much If you're afraid of
saying the wrong thing.
You could just be quiet and youcould just listen and you can
just really seek to open yourheart, to be present with the
(36:26):
person.
And that's going to go a longway to be present with the
person, and that's going to go along way.
We don't have many safe placesto be able to show up and be
emotionally honest and sharewith somebody else, and even
just the gift of giving somebodythe chance to listen to
themselves, process out loud.
That's one of the reasons whyat Soul Shepherding we have
spiritual directors that canmeet with people on Zoom at any
(36:50):
time.
You can go onsoulshepherdingorg and you can
book an appointment with aspiritual director right now and
you can have a safe space ofsomebody who will listen to you,
process out loud.
And oftentimes when I'm meetingwith my spiritual director and
I'm sharing and I'm processingout loud, I'll realize, oh, I
didn't even know, I felt that, Iwasn't even aware, I was
feeling that until I heardmyself say it.
(37:11):
And even there's times whenI'll hear myself say something
when I'm processing with myspiritual director and I'll be
able to kind of self-correct.
You know what?
Oh, you know what?
That isn't really right.
I'm kind of like off in mythinking there.
I don't even need them to sayanything because I'm just just
that gift that they're attuningwith me.
They're present with me,they're praying silently for me
helps me to be able to agreewith and receive that three-way
(37:35):
empathy.
And so don't worry if you don'tfeel like you have any
expertise or you don't know whatto say.
That's not what's actually themost helpful.
It's most helpful just to knowthat you're present, that you
care, that you're with them,that you're listening.
Colleen Montague (37:50):
Yeah, good, like you're with them, that
you're listening.
Yeah, like you said, it allgoes back to that attuning
element of A.
It's just that it doesn'talways have to be with words.
So much of it is your postureand your body language and how
you show them you really areseeking to be alongside them and
to understand.
Kristi Gaultiere (38:06):
Yeah, and also to let them know that even if
you hit a point where you hityour limit, you start to get
overwhelmed or you start to shutdown, that you can even just
say to them you know, I'm sorry,I'm recognizing that I'm
starting to, you know, get alittle overwhelmed my own
emotions, or I'm just feelingreally tired.
I just want you to know that'snot about you and I really I
(38:28):
really love you, I really carefor you.
I really want you to get thiskind of empathy and care.
I'm sorry I can't continue togive it to you right now, but
I'd like to another time.
I'd like another chance to comeback, or I'd like to refer you
to this space where I know youcan get more.
Colleen Montague (38:45):
That speaks to having good boundaries around
empathy and knowing your ownlimits.
And, yeah, very true.
Kristi Gaultiere (38:52):
Because sometimes we won't give it
because we're afraid of hittingthat point.
So we write about that and howto give empathy without getting
drained in the book.
Erin Nelson (39:02):
I really like that, Kristi, because you mentioned
earlier just like being withyourself as you're with someone
else, and you can learn to dothat, to do both of those at the
same time.
That's right.
In the book you mentioned oneof my favorite authors, Henri
Nouwen, and his idea ofbefriending emotions, and many
(39:24):
of our listeners are parents whoare grieving while raising
children who are also grieving.
And how can our listeners learnto befriend their emotions and
then also model that for theirchildren, even in the midst of
grief?
Kristi Gaultiere (39:41):
Yeah, that is so important that we're able to
accept our emotions, not shameourselves for them, not judge
ourselves for them.
Because if we're doing that forour emotions, our children are
going to pick up on that andthey're going to hold back their
own emotions and figure well,if mom's judging herself for her
emotions, she's judging me formine.
(40:01):
If it's not okay for mom to beangry, it's not okay for me to
be angry.
If it's not okay for mom to besad, it's not okay for me to be
sad.
So we need to really realizethat the kids are very kids, are
very attuned in to theirparents, and so it's crucial
that we learn to befriend ouremotions and our grief, that we
accept them.
And you know, one of the keythings that has helped me to do
(40:25):
that is to receive empathy fromsomebody else who can befriend
my emotions, and to agree withJesus, who befriends my emotions
.
And look at the way Jesusbefriended his own emotions.
He lamented himself.
He didn't gloss over pain andpretend everything was okay when
it wasn't.
He wept over the tomb of hisfriend.
(40:47):
He cried over Jerusalem.
He felt the weight of sorrow.
He didn't rush to fix it.
Grief wasn't a threat to hisfaith.
It was an expression of hislove, and he accepted help from
other people.
And so that helps me torecognize that Jesus, even being
the Son of God, didn't try todo life alone.
He received friendship andhospitality and prayer and
(41:08):
financial support.
He let people care for him, hehumbled himself and trusted.
Then I can do that.
Or if I look the way that heprocessed his emotions and
prayers and poured out his heartto his father when he was
overwhelmed, he didn't just sayhe shouldn't feel that way, he
said what he really felt.
He let his Heavenly Father intothe depths of his pain and
(41:30):
found strength there.
I can do that too.
And he didn't live withoutlimits.
Jesus set boundaries, and wehave a whole Bible study on that
in the book.
He knew his limits.
He didn't apologize for hisneed to rest.
He regularly withdrew to quietplaces away from the crowd so he
could rest and pray and be withhis father.
(41:52):
These are kinds of things I canlearn from him and I can do as
well.
Erin Nelson (41:57):
Yeah, really just practicing.
Doesn't it take practice tocontinue to look to him and how
he modeled this and justpractice.
And I know even on your soulshepherding website, there are
so many practices that we couldlearn from as well.
Brad Quillen (42:14):
Yes, Kristi, as we start to wrap up.
I know there's been a.
You've shared a lot and I'mvery thankful because I've been
writing notes over here asyou've been talking.
But if I could ask you to sumup or phrase what's what?
What would you want ourlisteners to take away about
empathy and grief?
I know it's kind of a loadedquestion in some ways, because
you've said a lot and there'sbeen a lot of good stuff in
(42:36):
there, but if you kind ofwrapped it into one phrase or
one kind of idea, what would yousay?
Kristi Gaultiere (42:42):
Well, what I would say is that I am sad for
you and the grief and the lossthat you're experiencing and the
pain you're navigating for.
And I have hope for you,because I've been through the
journey and I've received thecare and the empathy and I've
processed through the phases ofgrief and I've come out as a
wounded healer and that's goingto be the opportunity for you
(43:06):
where your pain and your lossand your grief can be redeemed
and you're going to have aspecial and greater empathy for
others' pain because you have anexperiential knowledge now of
the depth of pain and loss andgrief and of the breadth of
emotions and the complicationsof emotions and you're going to
be able to articulate better inempathy for other people who
(43:30):
need that care and that giftgoing forward.
And that's going to becomesomething that you're going to
actually be able to look backfor and find joy in as you
journey with other people and asyou see that you get to be part
of their healing story.
Erin Nelson (43:46):
Thank you so much, and where can our listeners just
find more information aboutyour work, and also the book
Deeply Loved?
And you have other works aswell, and share with us where
listeners can connect with you.
Kristi Gaultiere (44:02):
Thank you.
Well, at Soul Shepherding welove to provide resources and
care and training care andtraining and so you can find out
all about any of our otherresources, our care of spiritual
direction, our training inspiritual direction at
soulshepherdingorg.
And if you want moreinformation about Deeply Loved
the book, you can go tosoulshepherding.
org/ deeply loved book and youcan purchase the book anywhere
(44:27):
the books are sold.
If they don't have it in stock,they can order it, and it's
also available on Amazon or anymajor bookseller as well,
because it is with a majorpublisher, so you should have no
trouble finding and orderingthe book.
Colleen Montague (44:42):
That's great Kristi.
Thank you so much for thewisdom that you shared with us
today.
I have some nuggets that I'mgoing to take with me that.
I learned from you and I'm justeager to continue learning more
, and I'm just grateful for thework that you and Bill are doing
to help us all become betterhumans, not only to others in
(45:03):
our life, but to ourselves too.
So thank you Well.
Kristi Gaultiere (45:07):
You're welcome and thank you.
We're so grateful to be friendsand partners together in this
work.
Thank you so welcome and thankyou.
We're so grateful to be friendsand partners together in this
work.
Erin Nelson (45:13):
Thank you so much and thank you for being here and
we're just grateful for all youdo and it was so so nice to
have this time with you, thankyou.
Brad Quillen (45:22):
Erin and Colleen.
This is so good today and thisis such a needed conversation.
We could spend a lot more timeon this.
I know we all thought thatgoing into it, but I sure
appreciate being here with youguys today.
Erin Nelson (45:33):
Thanks, Brad.
Brad Quillen (45:38):
Erin, I know there's something you wanted to
share with our listeners today,as we wrap up this podcast.
Why don't you go ahead and takea moment.
Erin Nelson (45:41):
Just as our listeners have given us really
great feedback, I just want tosay if you could just take a
moment to rate our podcast andalso write a review.
It helps get it into the handsof those who need it most, and
so every time you review apodcast, it goes up a little bit
(46:02):
into ratings, and so ifsomebody just types in grief in
a podcast search, they can findthis podcast and, as we know
that it's been so helpful forparents who are grieving, we
want to get it into more hands.
So please rate and review.
Brad Quillen (46:19):
Thanks, Erin, and let me remind you be sure to
visit jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources andif you have any other topics or
questions you'd like us tocover on this podcast, we
welcome your email at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us for the nextepisode of When Grief Comes
Home.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (46:41):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(47:03):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(47:25):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
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