February 11, 2025 • 45 mins
Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief.
Losing your spouse or partner changes everything. In this episode, Brad, Colleen, and Erin illuminate the often-overlooked changes that come with such a profound loss.
The loss of a spouse or partner reshapes all aspects of daily life. Today we discuss the disorienting experience of adjusting after someone who lived with you side by side is no longer there. We explain how guilt is a natural companion in the grieving process and how it affects both adults and children. We explore how to acclimate with new responsibilities and routines. We offer strategies for what can help with the physicality of grief and how these feelings impact your body.
We offer insights and resources on how to support your child after the death of their parent with ideas on how to explain death to your child.
Please subscribe to the When Grief Comes Home podcast and leave us a review. The more stars, reviews, and downloads the show receives, the more parents and families in grief can find support.
Order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L
For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gary Shriver (00:00):
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
Now through this podcast, they'll share grief
resources and coping skills,heartfelt stories and insights
to support parents as they raisechildren who are grieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (00:47):
Hello, hello, it's Brad from Jessica's House.
Today, we're talking about thegrief reactions that come after
losing your spouse, the personyou shared so much history with,
made so many memories and hadcountless interaction that now
only belong to you.
You're not only grieving theloss of a partner, but you are
grieving all you've lost, whatyou never had and what you had
hoped for your future.
Colleen, Erin, good to see youguys as we get started in this
(01:10):
next episode of Losing yourSpouse or Partner.
Erin, I know we have spent alot of time talking about your
husband, Tyler, that died anumber of years ago, and there's
some things with a spouse orpartner that you just know what
they're thinking in the momentor the memories you share, the
thoughts of growing old togetherand envisioning what the future
(01:31):
and what forever looks liketogether and then that's
interrupted, and so much changeswhen that death happens.
Erin Nelson (01:45):
Yeah, when you come into that ceremony and that
sacred union and kind of makethat commitment and promise to
each other, you say those words,you know, for better or for
worse, in sickness and health,till death do us part, right?
And then the death parts you.
And what does that look like?
It's not, it's never anythingthat you imagined could be
possible in your lifetime.
(02:05):
Yeah you think it's way, way,way down the road.
Yes, yeah, you think it's way down the road and
you have fears about it, ofcourse, and worries.
But when you get that phonecall and so many of our
listeners have faced a death ofa spouse or a partner and they
(02:34):
are taking care of their kids,who are grieving alongside their
own grief, and we know that,even at Jessica's House, about
60% of the children who come tous have lost their parent, have
lost their dad, and then asignificant other amount have
lost their mom, and so, as weserve these children and
families, we know that this, allof these spouses and partners
(02:57):
that are supporting each other,they're hurting.
Brad Quillen (03:01):
Yeah, and there's some of those things that you
don't realize until the daysstart to go on, and just little
things that pop up, or thequirks that you miss about them,
or even the annoying thingsright that you miss those even
down the road.
Erin Nelson (03:16):
You miss the annoying things and I know we've
talked sometimes like there'sthings that you might miss and
others that you don't.
Brad Quillen (03:22):
Thankfully, that's not.
Erin Nelson (03:24):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Brad Quillen (03:26):
But even for your story.
I know you talk about being inthe grocery store and there this
never even dawned on you untilmonths down the road, but in the
grocery store you had one ofthose grief moments.
Erin Nelson (03:36):
Yeah, well, you know it was actually my very
first time going groceryshopping after Tyler died and I
thought it would just be thisnormal thing that I would just
grab the shopping cart and justgo through the double doors and
make my way around.
And I got to kind of the cookieand cracker aisle and realized
(03:58):
that every time I went to thegrocery store I got those silly
little animal crackers that arefrosted with the sprinkles.
Brad Quillen (04:05):
The pink and white ones, yeah.
Erin Nelson (04:05):
Yeah, and that was just his favorite, so we kept
it, we always kept it.
I always grabbed a bag andthrew it in the cart right and I
have, I pulled them off theshelf and then realized like
nobody likes these but him andjust thinking like how?
Then I was like kind ofparalyzed really to where, like
(04:26):
do I don't buy him, like put himback.
And then I all of a sudden waslike oh my gosh, like what do I
buy at the grocery store?
Because I don't think I evenrealized that so much of the
time I had him in my mind,whether that was the cookies or
some other you know recipe Iwanted to make, and so it really
(04:49):
took me off guard that it washard to even know what to put in
my grocery cart.
I was never expecting that.
Brad Quillen (04:56):
Yeah, I think I got my stories mixed up because
down the, down the road, a fewmonths later there's a fire
building reality in your lifeand after we share a little bit
about that story, we want totalk about what it is, what
grief is that torn apart ideathat Colleen's going to share
with us, but can you even justspeak to down the road a couple
months later is where I gotmixed up about the fire building
(05:19):
experience and again one ofthose things that you didn't
realize was a part of your lifethat now you're having to do and
a lot of people listening arein that place of man.
I didn't realize they did this.
I've got to learn to do thisnow and we're going to get into
that more in the episode here ina few minutes.
Erin Nelson (05:36):
Yeah, just the roles that we have.
And that was a few months afterhe died when I took the kids to
a friend's house and when wewere there and the kids were
riding horses and it was Octoberand I realized that it was
getting colder and he was alwaysthe one that built the fire and
(05:59):
so I thought about, let's justgo home and kind of get cozy.
And then I remembered, oh mygosh, he was always the one that
made that first fire of theseason.
And I think what we hear fromour families that are affected
by the death of their spouse orpartner is that they didn't even
realize that they had roles andthey could be so simple, like
(06:23):
chores or picking the kids up,um, dinners, you know the dishes
, just everyday things like.
And you know, we don't evenrealize.
We kind of have these rhythmsin life and when one person just
drops out of your world andthey're no longer there and
you're left just doing it solo,whatever that might be taking
(06:47):
the kids to school.
I remember one time I wasinvited to a friend's house and
I got a babysitter and it wasafter Tyler had died and when I
got home, I realized I needed topick the kids up out of bed and
put them in their car seats totake the babysitter home, and I
(07:12):
would have never thought aboutthat how I would always before,
when Tyler was there, he tookthe babysitter home, or I took
the babysitter home and hestayed with the kids.
I never thought about takingsleeping babies out of their
beds.
Brad Quillen (07:25):
And we hear that, from bank accounts to yard work,
to car things, to shopping, tocooking, like that, that the
spouse or partner that that theyhandled that, that piece or
that chore, like you said, thatthose are all now just dumped in
our plate and those are all nowour responsibilities.
Erin Nelson (07:42):
Yeah, and whoever's left with that, how they can
fill those roles, you know,without it being all on them,
and so that takes a lot ofcreativity and thought and we
need support through that.
Brad Quillen (07:58):
And it's hard to do that because not only are
there more responsibilities, butthere's the reality of this
idea of grief and bereavement.
And, Colleen, can you speak tojust the definition of that word
, the bereavement?
Colleen Montague (08:13):
To be bereaved is to be torn apart, and so
your spouse, that old adage thattwo become one.
You two knew each other in thedeepest of ways, in ways that
few others could understand, andwhen they're gone, you're
untethered, and it's almost likeyou have to relearn yourself a
(08:34):
little bit.
That's what I kind of thoughtof when you mentioned about what
to grocery shop for Erin.
You had to relearn yourself alittle bit and what you would
get just for yourself or for thekids, and so there's a lot of
relearning to do when that otherperson is gone now.
Brad Quillen (08:52):
Yeah, there's the reality of now you're the solo
parent.
I had one gentleman in groupsay years ago that I have to
cook now and I have to teachmyself how to cook, you know,
and his comment was I didn'trealize there was more spices
than just salt and pepper.
You know that there was waymore that goes into cooking, or
moms that needed car maintenance, things done, and where do you
(09:12):
even begin?
It's so overwhelming and allthe different tasks, you're
grieving, you're trying tofigure out what tasks are being
missed and skipped and now learnhow to do all those.
Or what's the password to thebank accounts online, the life
insurance, all of those things.
Colleen Montague (09:29):
Yeah, you know they really held the home with
you and, like you said, filled arole that you may not have even
realized at the time theenormity of it, and so that's
just one of the many reasons whygrief is so disorienting just
to not have that constant inyour home anymore.
Brad Quillen (09:51):
Yeah, it's that rhythm that Erin was speaking
about a minute ago that you gethome, one of you keeps the kids
in bed and the other one justpicks up the rhythm of taking
the babysitter home.
Erin Nelson (10:00):
Yeah, and I think too, you know, we have different
roles and we also havedifferent personalities that we
bring into the home, and so muchof the time there may be one
personality that is that bringsin the levity right or brings in
the fun, and I think aboutColleen, you kind of talk a
(10:22):
little bit about something wecall glitter and glue.
Colleen Montague (10:25):
Yeah, it's a phrase that was coined by author
Kelly Corrigan in regards toher parents and the ideas that
within a home, you know, oneparent tends to be the glue, the
person that keeps everybody,you know, put together, all the
the permission slips signed, allof the kind of housekeeping, if
(10:47):
you will, and then there's theglitter parent and that's kind
of the fun parent, the one thatis quick to bring levity into
the home or do the spontaneousfun, and we have natural leans
one versus the other.
But then, once our spouse isgone, we're missing that glue or
(11:08):
glitter and it's hard to adaptthe one that is not your natural
inclination.
It's not impossible, but it'sjust one more thing that you now
have to be mindful about.
Erin Nelson (11:20):
Yeah, there's so many things to think about.
When you've got you know, whenyou have kids and you're trying
to manage all of theiractivities and keep the house
going, and when you have had apartner in that to adjust, it's
so disorienting to not havethose rhythms in your everyday
life.
(11:40):
And I remember hearing a dadtalk about how he and his wife
were just you know, just thesimple things like watching a TV
series together, and theyalways looked forward to that at
the end of the day and he saidI don't want to watch that alone
.
It doesn't even feel right tokeep the series going and to
(12:02):
play another episode, because wewere always together in that
and so, just knowing that therewere parts of life that you were
doing together and you had somany hopes and dreams for your
future and you were planning andhoping for and you know just
things that you've been talkingabout for a long time.
Brad Quillen (12:21):
And Erin, you bring up the future and I want
to flip that coin over for asecond and ask what would you
say to someone that's listening?
That goes, I didn't have awhole lot of future plans, but I
sure have a lot of regrets.
I wished I woulda, coulda, whatif, like what do you say to
that person that's listeningtoday?
That not so much the future,but if I could go back, here's
what I would do different.
Erin Nelson (12:42):
Here's what I would do different.
Yeah, I think that's part ofgrief.
I think regret and guilt ispart of grief and I think, no
matter what, you will feel thatas part of your grief.
Even if you did a lot right andyou things were really, really
good, you'll still have that.
But we all have what a shouldacouldas and even if the person
(13:06):
were still alive and you growold together, you'd still would
have those regrets, right?
That's true.
They're expressing them and being able to just say
it out loud, tell someone whatdo you wish you would have done
(13:28):
with them, you know, and justall of those regrets, being able
to express them in some way isreally important.
Colleen Montague (13:37):
And that's grieving authentically.
There's so much to that idea ofbeing authentic in your grief
and that's one of them.
And even what you said earlier,Brad, about the things you
don't miss and the imperfectionsthat of course your spouse had
and of course you had as apartner to them in return.
And so really just bringinghonor to the wholeness of your
(14:02):
shared story with your partner,both the darkness and the light
of it.
Erin Nelson (14:06):
Yeah, and I think we disappoint people and they
disappoint us, and that's partof life, and so even some of you
know you could still be reallyupset and angry at them for what
they've done, you know whatthey had done that was never
resolved.
And I think about the marriagesthat we hear about, even here
(14:28):
at Jessica's house, and thingsare really rough and they never
had the opportunity to dowhatever it was they were
starting to think about doing.
You know, and if it was workingit out, we know we've heard a
story comes to my mind ofsomeone who was just going to
counseling for the first timeand something I appreciated was
(14:51):
she said they were kind oftaking turns, so she went to the
counselor first, then herhusband did, and it was right
before he died, and he walked inafter seeing the counselor.
He said, well, I think I knowthe problem, and then she was
like, well, what is it?
And he said it's you so, butyou know, but he was joking and
(15:12):
they were just starting toactually bring a little levity
to some of what they wereworking through and they didn't
get to finish that process andso when you know so some of that
is you know she says I'm stillin marriage counseling.
I still tell him what I'm madabout and what the things that
we never got to work through,and that's hard too.
Brad Quillen (15:36):
But I'm just so glad that we're acknowledging
this because so many people arestruggling with that.
You said something a second ago, Erin, that I don't know that
we've ever talked about, so I'mgoing to bring it up here in the
podcast and see where it goes.
But guilt and grief, I thoughtin my head when you were
speaking a minute ago, guilt isalmost a guarantee in grief,
(15:59):
kind of like tears.
But then I thought to myselfthere's some people that don't
cry, um, but I think guiltalmost is right there as common
as tears or sadness.
The more I think about it justsitting here as you said that,
and I'm curious what you guyswould say to that, because, man,
we've heard so many storiesabout guilt.
Erin Nelson (16:21):
We've heard a lot of stories about guilt.
One that stands out to me is adad who talked about how he's
learned to kind of, it's likekind of like a parking garage.
He kind of goes in and parksfor a little while and lets
himself feel that guilt and thenhe kind of drives it back out
and you can't park there forever.
So I think about that it ispart of grief and you need to
(16:46):
express it, you need to feel it,you need to feel that in your
body and just have those regretsand wish things could change
and wish you could go back andall of that.
But then there comes a timewhen I think it does get better,
a little bit softer over time,but where you don't park there
forever and that as you continueto express what you're feeling
(17:10):
and that you can integrate thosefeelings of guilt.
Brad Quillen (17:14):
So I have two questions and, Colleen, I'm
going to come to you for thesecond one, because we hear kids
talk about all the time theguilt and the death of if I
would have acted better atschool, there wouldn't have been
as much pressure at home andall these things.
But, Erin, you said somethingabout feeling it in your body.
There's some that might belistening that think what in the
world does that even mean?
Erin Nelson (17:35):
We have talked so much about these emotions of
grief as having energy and somuch of the time, and sometimes
it will show up for somebody,just like in their throat or
their stomach and their head.
They have pressure, they'll justsay I just have this pressure
(17:56):
in my head and we've talkedabout how sometimes just
expressing those emotions orcrying they'll find some relief
for a time.
But those feelings in your body, it's just part of grief, of
just the energy.
And how do we feel that andexpress it?
(18:17):
The way we feel it and findwhat we need next and that, you
know, as we are expressing it,could be really calling a friend
, it could be taking a walk, itcould be that you're just
connecting somehow or you know,just finding, you know, your
favorite snack and having a mealwith a friend or whatever that
(18:40):
might be.
But it is important that youfeel it, express it and then
find what you need next.
Brad Quillen (18:47):
Yeah, and I'm just so glad we're talking about
this because so many peoplethink, oh, I'm just feeling this
, I'm just off today.
No, it's grief.
You're feeling grief, tightnessin the chest, shortness of
breath, all these things thatI've heard for years.
But, Colleen, what about kiddosand guilt?
Because we hear that often.
Colleen Montague (19:07):
Yeah, we have, of course, the understandable
logical parts of guilt that kidswill bring to us, just the, you
know, I wish I would have spentmore time with him and less
time on my phone.
Maybe a teen might say or Iwish I would have not yelled at
him at the dinner table thatlast time.
(19:29):
And then sometimes there's someillogical pieces of guilt that
kids will hold thinking.
We had a kid once whose daddied of a heart attack and the
kid thought that he actuallycaused it because he had yelled
at his dad a couple nightsbefore.
And so he thought, by the wayhe treated his dad, that that
(19:49):
had caused his dad's heart tostop working.
And you know you can bringlogic to that.
But to Erin's point, it's stillworth going there with them and
just acknowledging you thinkyou think you caused it, you,
you feel bad for yelling at him.
Nothing that you say could makesomeone's body stop working now
(20:10):
.
So allow them to have thatfeeling and don't totally
dismiss it, but then you canbring logic to it for them.
So other ideas of guilt thatwe've seen before are kids.
Naturally we've talked aboutthis dip in and out of their
grief and there's times wherethey're going to feel excitement
again.
You know, maybe they getinvited to a birthday party and
(20:31):
they're really looking forwardto it and then all of a sudden
they realize I can't be excitedabout this, my mom just died,
and then they felt guilty forgoing for going or even just
having a normal emotion ofhappiness, because that can be
there again, we can feel momentsof joy again, and it's okay.
Brad Quillen (20:49):
Yeah, we hear that around activities a lot with
kiddos Like how can I go to thisand my dad not be there or my
mom not be there?
You know, and want to go havefun without them.
Erin Nelson (20:58):
Or they may even be getting some feedback from
their friends of you know, Ithought your mom died.
Why are you laughing or why areyou playing, or why are you at
this party today if your momdied?
And I think kids are teachingus here at Jessica's House they
just want to be normal kids,they want to just go have fun,
(21:19):
they want to go play, they wantto be outside, they want to be
treated the way they always havebeen.
And so being able to, yeah,like counter that guilt in some
ways that you can hold both youcan really miss your mom and you
can have a lot of fun and it'sokay to hold both at the same
time.
And you're not always going tofeel the intensity of your grief
(21:42):
.
You will have times oflightning.
Brad Quillen (21:46):
And for those of you listening, the moms and dads
, that you can laugh too.
Oh yeah, like people come togroup here and do groups with
the adult groups, with us, andthey laugh in group and we see
that emotion, like wait, that'sthe first time I've laughed
since they died right, and theystart to kind of get back into
that a bit.
Erin Nelson (22:02):
Yeah, and I think about that, Brad and Jessica's
House, when we first opened, wehad a teeny, tiny little house
and the parents were in groupand the kids were on, just right
there was just a door and theywere..
Brad Quillen (22:15):
.
.
.
a glass door.
.
.
Erin Nelson (22:16):
.
.
.
yeah, a glass door, and theywere on the very just the next
side of the door.
And here I think about when theparents, when I would be in a
parent group and they heard thekids laughing and just you could
see it, you could feel it onthem that just how much it meant
to them to hear their kidslaughing.
And for the for the kids samething.
When all the parents would justerupt in laughter and the kids
(22:40):
you could just see it broughtcomfort to them as well.
almost like a normal, is backin a little way.
Yeah, and just that we can dip in and out of our
grief, and also there will betimes when we feel levity, and
that's life, and you can feelguilty a little bit about that,
but just keep going and keepletting yourself authentically
grieve in that way.
Brad Quillen (23:01):
And if you're listening and you are needing
more resources and with some ofthese things, with your own life
or your kiddo's life, don'tforget that you can always look
at jessicashouse.
org under the resource tab andfind quite a few things there to
help you.
If this is resonating in anyway this far today.
Erin, can I ask you one lastquestion before we go to break
and Colleen, we talk abouthonoring the wholeness of your
(23:25):
person's story.
Erin Nelson (23:26):
Yeah, when I think about the wholeness of the
person's story is to reallyhonor them for who they were
altogether, which means not onlytheir really great part.
The great parts of them right,but also the hard parts of them
and the human parts of them.
Yes, and when we remembersomebody, it's okay to laugh at
(23:49):
their quirkiness and to also say, yeah and that other, that part
of him that was or her that wasreally difficult, that
disrupted our family at times,like, let's talk about that too,
because that is a very realpart of life that we all of us
live inside of Right, and sohonor the whole person.
(24:12):
It's so tempting sometimes tojust honor and talk about the
good parts, and we want to dothat.
But to honor the whole personis to give respect to who they
were in the not so great partsof them as well, and we have all
kinds of parts of us, right?
Brad Quillen (24:33):
That's right, because there's some that are
listening that you might nothave been together because of
some of those human parts andjust some of those hardships,
and so that this is makes itmore complex with the death and
some of those things.
Colleen Montague (24:46):
So true, it's an unfortunate reality that a
lot of relationships are verystrained.
A lot could be in separation ordivorced, and if that's part of
your story, it certainly doescomplicate things a bit for you.
But the reality is you lovedthem at one part of your life
(25:08):
and you share a family with themyour children and it's okay to
grieve their loss still.
You may even grieve the realityof what can never be.
If you held a hope forreconciliation, and now that's
(25:30):
no more.
Or if they were just a reallyhard person in your life and it
was better to be apart fromthem, but still, you can grieve
their loss.
Brad Quillen (25:37):
Yeah, we just want to acknowledge that piece of
some of the complexities thatcomes in when a spouse dies.
That's going to take us to ourbreak and when we come back
after the break we're going totalk a little bit about social
changes and just some of theways those affect us as we're
grieving.
Gary Shriver (25:54):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
Jessica's House provides freepeer support for children, teens
, young adults and theirfamilies grieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
(26:16):
Jessica's House on social media.
And if you have any questionsor topics you'd like us to
explore in a future episode,just send us an email at info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (26:30):
Welcome back from the break and I wanted to share
an illustration we heard from afamily member here at Jessica's
House not too long ago about theidea that his life with his
wife was kind of scripted ordrawn on an etch-a-sketch as
they were planning for theirfuture and their family and down
the road.
But then his wife ultimatelydied and it's as if someone came
(26:53):
up to his Etch-a-Sketch andtook it and shook it back and
forth and then handed it back tohim and how much confused and
dismantled his life felt oncethat Etch-a-Sketch was shaken
and they handed it back to himand Erin, that sounds a lot like
the adults we work with here atJessica's House.
Erin Nelson (27:11):
Yeah, I think the disorientation of having, like
he said, this Etch-A-Sketch thathe had been building his life
on and having it shaken.
And then I remember him sayingit was just like I had these a
few little squiggles here andthere.
It's like there's a lot,there's some pieces that remain,
(27:34):
but it doesn't look anythinglike it did and it wasn't
anything that he imagined as hebuilt this life.
And so just to have just thiskind of erased life, you know
where do you start, yeah, andeverything looks different,
everything, just this kind oferased life, you know where do
you start?
Brad Quillen (27:48):
Yeah, and everything looks different.
Erin Nelson (27:50):
Everything.
Brad Quillen (27:51):
From parenting to work, to friendships, to social
engagements, all those thingslook different.
Erin Nelson (28:15):
Yeah, I was thinking about just, you know,
something I think about so oftenthat looks so different, that's
rarely talked about, is eventhe difference of not having
someone to share your enjoymentof your children.
Because you know, when you arepartners in raising your kids,
so much of the time you're justkind of looking at them and they
don't have to be doing anythingspecial, they're just kind of
breathing and they're just kindof playing next to you and you
kind of share this little likearen't they cool?
You know, look what we did here, and so you know, and you lose
(28:38):
that forever.
You know you never have someonethat you can share that love,
that deep love and attachment toyour children, you lose that.
Yeah, no one can hold that withyou again.
Brad Quillen (28:55):
The three of us have kids and we understand what
it's like to look across theroom when your kid does
something and just know you'resharing that same thought.
Reacting to the what yourlittle one or old one just did.
Erin Nelson (29:08):
Exactly.
Just sharing those thoughts andlike like kind of jokingly,
like blaming each other for it,whatever it was like.
Brad Quillen (29:17):
That was all you.
Erin Nelson (29:18):
Exactly, yeah, and just those inside jokes, right?
I mean just the things that youshare as parents parenting
these kids and you have thememories that you'll never get
to share.
There are memories no one elsewill have, those early days that
you know no one else was around.
You can never say remember thattime when this child did this
(29:42):
or whatever.
There's no one to share thatwith because no one was even
there with you.
You were in the intimate kindof parts of your home and your
room and your child's room.
No one else saw that.
There's no one to talk to aboutthat.
Brad Quillen (29:54):
Erin, it's so true because there's those
relationships between husbandand wife and spouse and partners
and those things that change sodrastically.
But all of our relationshipschange, even in the world of
friendship they change, and sothat's hard to accept when
things have felt so dismantledwith those other adults around
us.
Coworkers are just people we'veknown for years, and, Colleen,
(30:17):
what do you say to that?
Those that are kind ofstruggling with just friendships
?
Colleen Montague (30:21):
You had the mutual friends between you and
your spouse that you spent timetogether, and we've heard so
often how off it feels aftertheir spouse is gone.
It's really hard for some to bewith those previous friendships
, maybe always feeling like thethird wheel or the fifth wheel.
(30:43):
You also are in relationshipswith others who are also
grieving the loss of yourpartner.
You know with your extendedfamily, somebody lost their
brother and somebody lost theirson, and so you're not grieving
alone, you're grieving withothers, and it can be uniting
and isolating all at the sametime.
Erin Nelson (31:04):
The friendships that even I had with when Tyler
was alive and we had thesecouple friends and you really
never get that back and later on, as I remarried, even we kind
of lost that window of thoseearly marriage couple friends,
and so that changes you, thatchanges forever.
(31:26):
You never go back to havingthose couple friends that you
like to do life with when thekids are young, and so it's just
a big impact.
Brad Quillen (31:35):
It changes everything.
Erin Nelson (31:36):
It does.
Brad Quillen (31:37):
And we've said that in the house that grief
changes everything.
Erin Nelson (31:40):
Yeah, and just losing someone that you're doing
life with every day it does.
It changes every aspect of yourlife, and I know when we've
heard from other parents here atJessica's House, it's they just
say you know, it's just not thesame.
And even though I may beinvited to go to the concert,
you know, with my couple offriends, but we always did that
(32:02):
together, that was somethingthat we shared and it just I
just don't even feel comfortableand I sometimes will feel like,
are they trying to work atincluding me in the conversation
?
It just feels awkward now.
It never felt like this before,and so you're finding your way
again back into your socialcircles and that's not easy.
Colleen Montague (32:24):
And it may even look like a new social
circle, we have a lot of parentshere who have connected with
each other in their groups.
In fact, one mom recently inour group said you know, ever
since my husband died, I've hadso many friendship changes that
actually now a lot of myfriendships have stemmed from a
(32:46):
connection through a loss of aspouse.
You know meeting people here atJessica's House, and so she
made a very interesting pointthat all of her friends now have
lost a spouse.
That's the commonality that shehas found to be helpful in this
stage in life.
Erin Nelson (33:03):
She kind of is doing what we talked about and
she's kind of recreating herlife in some way, of being able
to come to a place where shedoesn't feel so different
because in her everyday lifeshe's feeling so different.
But here at Jessica's House,she is finding others who really
get it.
know, there's no energyinvolved, right, you get to just
(33:29):
put it into the room, you don'thave to explain, it's just,
they just get each other andthey take really good care of
each other.
And that's something reallysweet to watch is the
friendships that are born.
And for our listeners today,I'm thinking about you know, how
do you find not that you haveto find all new friendships, but
sometimes being able to likefind new hobbies or something
(33:53):
that you enjoy, sometimes, aftera spouse dies, because our
identities are so with eachother, there's a little bit of
redefining of yourself, becauseyou kind of go back and think
like you know you said thisearlier about the grocery store,
colleen Colleen like what do Ilike?
You know, what do I like to do?
What have I always dreamed Imight try someday?
(34:16):
And so being able to redefineyourself in some ways, because
you may find some connections ifyou're taking a pottery class
or you're joining a hiking groupor doing something that you may
be never were able to do whenyour spouse was here because you
guys had different interests.
So it is a little redefiningand finding somewhere where you
(34:40):
don't feel quite so alone.
I was curious what you guyswould say to this, because when
you were speaking it made methink back to our episode on the
holidays, that when we go intothe holidays we need to give
ourselves permission to not doeverything or go to everything
or have some outs.
And it came up because, Erin,you were talking about some of
those friendships, like maybeyou're just feeling like the
(35:02):
conversation is forced or it'swork or it's just not natural
anymore, and, Colleen, you weretalking about that third and
fifth wheel piece, like we usedto do double dates with these
different couples and now I'mthe solo person.
What is it like for people togive themselves permissions to
not have to do what they used todo because so much has changed?
And how can someone plan aheadto where they're able to get out
(35:25):
of something when it feels justoff and awkward?
Colleen Montague (35:28):
Yeah, I think your keyword there, Brad, was
planning ahead, but because younever know how you're going to
be feeling in the moment, and sojust having plan A, plan B,
plan C if you will.
But you know, maybe you do wantto accept the invitation
initially, but you could alwayspreface it with, you know, right
(35:48):
now that sounds great, youknow, thank you for the invite.
You know things have been alittle chaotic lately or hard
lately, and so, um, there's a,there's a slight chance I may
need to cancel the day of, butright now count me in.
And that kind of gives you alittle bit of that safety backup
plan in case the day of you'renot feeling it and you won't
(36:11):
know until you get there.
Erin Nelson (36:12):
Yeah, and I think our energy just it changes right
and sometimes we might havemore capacity for some hard
kinds of like things that dotake a little more energy.
And if you're feeling depleted,like you said, it's okay to
just take a break and go tothose easier, and I just would
say look for the flow, likewhere do you find it's a little
(36:35):
bit easier to have thoseconversations and to kind of go
towards that?
And if you're not feeling, ifthings feel really clunky, it's
okay to take a break from that.
Brad Quillen (36:46):
One parent said to me in group one time I always
drive because then I can leave.
And I thought, hmm, so truethat first couple of years they
just said I always drive, so Ihave a way to leave.
I thought that was, that waspretty good, it wouldn't have
dawned on me unless I was inthat scenario.
Colleen Montague (37:03):
Yeah, and you won't, you won't know all the
tips and tricks for yourselfright away.
You're going to learn those intime, and so each experience can
be viewed as a learningopportunity.
You know well, that didn't feelso great, you know, what did I
need instead?
What could I do differentlynext time, or you know what that
kind of worked out well, I'mgoing to do that again in the
future.
I'm going to take my own car.
Brad Quillen (37:23):
Yeah, and, as we're talking about this, for us
as adults, social changes arereal for the kids that we're
parenting.
Erin Nelson (37:31):
Yeah, I think when we're thinking about the kids,
we're thinking about all thechanges that they are
experiencing and it could evenbe through, you know, sports or
friendships, like I know we'vehad kids here at Jessica's House
and their dad was their coachand they were really proud of
(37:53):
him.
You know, when he was part ofthe you know neighborhood, he
was kind of the neighborhood dadin some ways and you know it
was just part, like reallyinvolved, and then all of a
sudden he's not there anymore.
And so I think identity issomething it's like, who am I
now?
Like when I'm not the coach'sson anymore and I don't get to
(38:14):
just stand at the site on thesidelines with him anymore.
And you know, so I thinkthere's a change in identity and
um, and just knowing that askids just go, and there's also
like a redefining in them and Ithink like maybe they're having
a trajectory of maybe what theythought they were going to do,
(38:37):
and then they may look intoother interests that they hadn't
thought about for a while.
Maybe they always played soccer, but now they're going to try
baseball or, you know, maybethey start music or something
like that.
So I think, just as you know,as your life changes, you might
have other opportunities.
Colleen Montague (38:58):
Yeah, i t makes me think of the kid we had
in group once who always wantedto have a cat, but that wasn't,
his dad was allergic to cats,not a big fan, and that was
something that the family didlater on after the dad had died.
You know, they decided, youknow what, I guess we can have a
cat now, and so that was asomething that, of course, they
(39:18):
didn't want to have happen, buta little bit of lightness that
was they were able to bring intothe home.
Erin Nelson (39:24):
Things have changed and now we are identifying just
a different way to go forward.
Colleen Montague (39:29):
Yeah, it's almost worth buying an
Etch-a-Sketch for your familyjust as like a little example of
like hey, this is what wethought we had, and it's been
shaken.
And so now what?
Erin Nelson (39:39):
Yeah, we're going to just turn those knobs and
start rebuilding.
Colleen Montague (39:42):
Yeah, one of the things with that
Etch-a-Sketch and those changesis just the change in roles.
We talked about this earlier,about what your spouse was for
you.
You know, in life and withinthe home, and your kids have
those same impressions or ideals, and so you know who took him
(40:04):
to school every day, was it youor your spouse who did pickup,
who helped with homework, whowas really good at math?
You know who made dinner everynight or most nights, who was
the one that took care of thelawn or the laundry, you know
made sure the baseball uniformwas washed and ready to go.
And so the kids are wonderingyou know who's going to fill
(40:26):
these roles as well.
Erin Nelson (40:28):
Yeah, I was going to say, Colleen, that being able
to say, hey, dad always madedinner.
It's going to look differentnow, but let me tell you who's
who will fill that role.
So, will you be you, or will agrandparent drop off food once a
week and being able to preparethem for, yeah, I can't pick you
up from school anymore becauseI'm not out of work in time, but
(40:52):
this is who will pick you up.
And so, being able tocommunicate any kind of role
change because the person died,communicate that with your child
.
Colleen Montague (41:01):
And also learn from your child, ask them.
You know I know mom put you tobed every night.
What did she do?
What did bedtime look like?
What do you still want me to do?
How did she pack your lunch?
What did she always include?
Is there always like somethingspecial she put in there that
you want me to keep doing?
So let them teach you what wasimportant and what they still
(41:22):
want to see happening.
Erin Nelson (41:24):
Yeah, and what maybe they want to change.
Colleen Montague (41:26):
Absolutely.
So I love what you're saying,Colleen, about just hearing from
the kids.
They give us the best ideas.
Brad Quillen (41:35):
And as you're listening to this, you might've
found yourself as Colleen talkedabout, you know the person who
died was better at math than youand you find yourself being
frustrated about that.
That's okay, because I've heardin groups over the years they
were supposed to be here to dothis, or my favorite is he was
supposed to teach them to drivenot me, like I'm so scared to
teach my kid to drive, or Idon't understand algebra or all
(41:58):
these things, but there's thatfrustration of they were
supposed to be here to help medo this.
Erin Nelson (42:03):
Yeah, you never expect that they won't be there
and some things are going todrop.
That's the reality.
And that's really tough, youknow, and you're not able to
fill every role that that personfilled.
It's okay, it's like somethings will drop because the
reality is they're not hereanymore.
And that's hard and it's sad.
(42:23):
And give yourself the gracethat you need, as you live
inside of this new reality, toknow that you can't do
everything.
And that's tough, but just takeit breath by breath.
Brad Quillen (42:39):
We want to leave you parents and your kiddos with
a expressive art idea and wecall these healing practices.
And Colleen, Erin, who's goingto lead us through that?
Colleen Montague (42:50):
I can.
So one idea we wanted to sharewith you that you can do with
your kiddos or kids, if they'rea little older, is just writing
a letter to the person who died,or even just a little note to
themselves, a little like kindof journal entry.
But with these prompts we wantto give you and just see where
they take you (43:11):
"I miss the times we.
.
.
", I'll never forget.
.
.
, thank you for.
.
.
Any others, Erin?
Erin Nelson (43:25):
I like the one, just, " I wish.
.
.
," you know just getting alltheir wishes out and letting
that be and come together.
You can both answer thesequestions and just be with your
kids as you talk about this andsometimes you're kind of helping
them as the memory kind ofpreserver keeper and you know
being able to talk about thosememories and all the wishes that
you have.
Brad Quillen (43:45):
Well, Erin and Colleen, thank you for this
today.
It's so good and so rich.
For those of you listening, besure to visit us at
jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources orif you have any questions or got
a show idea, reach out to us atinfo@ jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of When
Grief Comes Home, where we'll bediscussing supporting your
(44:06):
child after the death of theirparent.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (44:12):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
(44:33):
Jessica's House on social media,and if you have any questions
or topics you'd like for us toexplore in future episodes, just
send us an email toinfo@jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time, for
When Grief Comes Home.
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
Now through this podcast, they'll share grief
resources and coping skills,heartfelt stories and insights
to support parents as they raisechildren who are grieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (00:47):
Hello, hello, it's Brad from Jessica's House.
Today, we're talking about thegrief reactions that come after
losing your spouse, the personyou shared so much history with,
made so many memories and hadcountless interaction that now
only belong to you.
You're not only grieving theloss of a partner, but you are
grieving all you've lost, whatyou never had and what you had
hoped for your future.
Colleen, Erin, good to see youguys as we get started in this
(01:10):
next episode of Losing yourSpouse or Partner.
Erin, I know we have spent alot of time talking about your
husband, Tyler, that died anumber of years ago, and there's
some things with a spouse orpartner that you just know what
they're thinking in the momentor the memories you share, the
thoughts of growing old togetherand envisioning what the future
(01:31):
and what forever looks liketogether and then that's
interrupted, and so much changeswhen that death happens.
Erin Nelson (01:45):
Yeah, when you come into that ceremony and that
sacred union and kind of makethat commitment and promise to
each other, you say those words,you know, for better or for
worse, in sickness and health,till death do us part, right?
And then the death parts you.
And what does that look like?
It's not, it's never anythingthat you imagined could be
possible in your lifetime.
(02:05):
Yeah you think it's way, way,way down the road.
Yes, yeah, you think it's way down the road and
you have fears about it, ofcourse, and worries.
But when you get that phonecall and so many of our
listeners have faced a death ofa spouse or a partner and they
(02:34):
are taking care of their kids,who are grieving alongside their
own grief, and we know that,even at Jessica's House, about
60% of the children who come tous have lost their parent, have
lost their dad, and then asignificant other amount have
lost their mom, and so, as weserve these children and
families, we know that this, allof these spouses and partners
(02:57):
that are supporting each other,they're hurting.
Brad Quillen (03:01):
Yeah, and there's some of those things that you
don't realize until the daysstart to go on, and just little
things that pop up, or thequirks that you miss about them,
or even the annoying thingsright that you miss those even
down the road.
Erin Nelson (03:16):
You miss the annoying things and I know we've
talked sometimes like there'sthings that you might miss and
others that you don't.
Brad Quillen (03:22):
Thankfully, that's not.
Erin Nelson (03:24):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Brad Quillen (03:26):
But even for your story.
I know you talk about being inthe grocery store and there this
never even dawned on you untilmonths down the road, but in the
grocery store you had one ofthose grief moments.
Erin Nelson (03:36):
Yeah, well, you know it was actually my very
first time going groceryshopping after Tyler died and I
thought it would just be thisnormal thing that I would just
grab the shopping cart and justgo through the double doors and
make my way around.
And I got to kind of the cookieand cracker aisle and realized
(03:58):
that every time I went to thegrocery store I got those silly
little animal crackers that arefrosted with the sprinkles.
Brad Quillen (04:05):
The pink and white ones, yeah.
Erin Nelson (04:05):
Yeah, and that was just his favorite, so we kept
it, we always kept it.
I always grabbed a bag andthrew it in the cart right and I
have, I pulled them off theshelf and then realized like
nobody likes these but him andjust thinking like how?
Then I was like kind ofparalyzed really to where, like
(04:26):
do I don't buy him, like put himback.
And then I all of a sudden waslike oh my gosh, like what do I
buy at the grocery store?
Because I don't think I evenrealized that so much of the
time I had him in my mind,whether that was the cookies or
some other you know recipe Iwanted to make, and so it really
(04:49):
took me off guard that it washard to even know what to put in
my grocery cart.
I was never expecting that.
Brad Quillen (04:56):
Yeah, I think I got my stories mixed up because
down the, down the road, a fewmonths later there's a fire
building reality in your lifeand after we share a little bit
about that story, we want totalk about what it is, what
grief is that torn apart ideathat Colleen's going to share
with us, but can you even justspeak to down the road a couple
months later is where I gotmixed up about the fire building
(05:19):
experience and again one ofthose things that you didn't
realize was a part of your lifethat now you're having to do and
a lot of people listening arein that place of man.
I didn't realize they did this.
I've got to learn to do thisnow and we're going to get into
that more in the episode here ina few minutes.
Erin Nelson (05:36):
Yeah, just the roles that we have.
And that was a few months afterhe died when I took the kids to
a friend's house and when wewere there and the kids were
riding horses and it was Octoberand I realized that it was
getting colder and he was alwaysthe one that built the fire and
(05:59):
so I thought about, let's justgo home and kind of get cozy.
And then I remembered, oh mygosh, he was always the one that
made that first fire of theseason.
And I think what we hear fromour families that are affected
by the death of their spouse orpartner is that they didn't even
realize that they had roles andthey could be so simple, like
(06:23):
chores or picking the kids up,um, dinners, you know the dishes
, just everyday things like.
And you know, we don't evenrealize.
We kind of have these rhythmsin life and when one person just
drops out of your world andthey're no longer there and
you're left just doing it solo,whatever that might be taking
(06:47):
the kids to school.
I remember one time I wasinvited to a friend's house and
I got a babysitter and it wasafter Tyler had died and when I
got home, I realized I needed topick the kids up out of bed and
put them in their car seats totake the babysitter home, and I
(07:12):
would have never thought aboutthat how I would always before,
when Tyler was there, he tookthe babysitter home, or I took
the babysitter home and hestayed with the kids.
I never thought about takingsleeping babies out of their
beds.
Brad Quillen (07:25):
And we hear that, from bank accounts to yard work,
to car things, to shopping, tocooking, like that, that the
spouse or partner that that theyhandled that, that piece or
that chore, like you said, thatthose are all now just dumped in
our plate and those are all nowour responsibilities.
Erin Nelson (07:42):
Yeah, and whoever's left with that, how they can
fill those roles, you know,without it being all on them,
and so that takes a lot ofcreativity and thought and we
need support through that.
Brad Quillen (07:58):
And it's hard to do that because not only are
there more responsibilities, butthere's the reality of this
idea of grief and bereavement.
And, Colleen, can you speak tojust the definition of that word
, the bereavement?
Colleen Montague (08:13):
To be bereaved is to be torn apart, and so
your spouse, that old adage thattwo become one.
You two knew each other in thedeepest of ways, in ways that
few others could understand, andwhen they're gone, you're
untethered, and it's almost likeyou have to relearn yourself a
(08:34):
little bit.
That's what I kind of thoughtof when you mentioned about what
to grocery shop for Erin.
You had to relearn yourself alittle bit and what you would
get just for yourself or for thekids, and so there's a lot of
relearning to do when that otherperson is gone now.
Brad Quillen (08:52):
Yeah, there's the reality of now you're the solo
parent.
I had one gentleman in groupsay years ago that I have to
cook now and I have to teachmyself how to cook, you know,
and his comment was I didn'trealize there was more spices
than just salt and pepper.
You know that there was waymore that goes into cooking, or
moms that needed car maintenance, things done, and where do you
(09:12):
even begin?
It's so overwhelming and allthe different tasks, you're
grieving, you're trying tofigure out what tasks are being
missed and skipped and now learnhow to do all those.
Or what's the password to thebank accounts online, the life
insurance, all of those things.
Colleen Montague (09:29):
Yeah, you know they really held the home with
you and, like you said, filled arole that you may not have even
realized at the time theenormity of it, and so that's
just one of the many reasons whygrief is so disorienting just
to not have that constant inyour home anymore.
Brad Quillen (09:51):
Yeah, it's that rhythm that Erin was speaking
about a minute ago that you gethome, one of you keeps the kids
in bed and the other one justpicks up the rhythm of taking
the babysitter home.
Erin Nelson (10:00):
Yeah, and I think too, you know, we have different
roles and we also havedifferent personalities that we
bring into the home, and so muchof the time there may be one
personality that is that bringsin the levity right or brings in
the fun, and I think aboutColleen, you kind of talk a
(10:22):
little bit about something wecall glitter and glue.
Colleen Montague (10:25):
Yeah, it's a phrase that was coined by author
Kelly Corrigan in regards toher parents and the ideas that
within a home, you know, oneparent tends to be the glue, the
person that keeps everybody,you know, put together, all the
the permission slips signed, allof the kind of housekeeping, if
(10:47):
you will, and then there's theglitter parent and that's kind
of the fun parent, the one thatis quick to bring levity into
the home or do the spontaneousfun, and we have natural leans
one versus the other.
But then, once our spouse isgone, we're missing that glue or
(11:08):
glitter and it's hard to adaptthe one that is not your natural
inclination.
It's not impossible, but it'sjust one more thing that you now
have to be mindful about.
Erin Nelson (11:20):
Yeah, there's so many things to think about.
When you've got you know, whenyou have kids and you're trying
to manage all of theiractivities and keep the house
going, and when you have had apartner in that to adjust, it's
so disorienting to not havethose rhythms in your everyday
life.
(11:40):
And I remember hearing a dadtalk about how he and his wife
were just you know, just thesimple things like watching a TV
series together, and theyalways looked forward to that at
the end of the day and he saidI don't want to watch that alone
.
It doesn't even feel right tokeep the series going and to
(12:02):
play another episode, because wewere always together in that
and so, just knowing that therewere parts of life that you were
doing together and you had somany hopes and dreams for your
future and you were planning andhoping for and you know just
things that you've been talkingabout for a long time.
Brad Quillen (12:21):
And Erin, you bring up the future and I want
to flip that coin over for asecond and ask what would you
say to someone that's listening?
That goes, I didn't have awhole lot of future plans, but I
sure have a lot of regrets.
I wished I woulda, coulda, whatif, like what do you say to
that person that's listeningtoday?
That not so much the future,but if I could go back, here's
what I would do different.
Erin Nelson (12:42):
Here's what I would do different.
Yeah, I think that's part ofgrief.
I think regret and guilt ispart of grief and I think, no
matter what, you will feel thatas part of your grief.
Even if you did a lot right andyou things were really, really
good, you'll still have that.
But we all have what a shouldacouldas and even if the person
(13:06):
were still alive and you growold together, you'd still would
have those regrets, right?
That's true.
They're expressing them and being able to just say
it out loud, tell someone whatdo you wish you would have done
(13:28):
with them, you know, and justall of those regrets, being able
to express them in some way isreally important.
Colleen Montague (13:37):
And that's grieving authentically.
There's so much to that idea ofbeing authentic in your grief
and that's one of them.
And even what you said earlier,Brad, about the things you
don't miss and the imperfectionsthat of course your spouse had
and of course you had as apartner to them in return.
And so really just bringinghonor to the wholeness of your
(14:02):
shared story with your partner,both the darkness and the light
of it.
Erin Nelson (14:06):
Yeah, and I think we disappoint people and they
disappoint us, and that's partof life, and so even some of you
know you could still be reallyupset and angry at them for what
they've done, you know whatthey had done that was never
resolved.
And I think about the marriagesthat we hear about, even here
(14:28):
at Jessica's house, and thingsare really rough and they never
had the opportunity to dowhatever it was they were
starting to think about doing.
You know, and if it was workingit out, we know we've heard a
story comes to my mind ofsomeone who was just going to
counseling for the first timeand something I appreciated was
(14:51):
she said they were kind oftaking turns, so she went to the
counselor first, then herhusband did, and it was right
before he died, and he walked inafter seeing the counselor.
He said, well, I think I knowthe problem, and then she was
like, well, what is it?
And he said it's you so, butyou know, but he was joking and
(15:12):
they were just starting toactually bring a little levity
to some of what they wereworking through and they didn't
get to finish that process andso when you know so some of that
is you know she says I'm stillin marriage counseling.
I still tell him what I'm madabout and what the things that
we never got to work through,and that's hard too.
Brad Quillen (15:36):
But I'm just so glad that we're acknowledging
this because so many people arestruggling with that.
You said something a second ago, Erin, that I don't know that
we've ever talked about, so I'mgoing to bring it up here in the
podcast and see where it goes.
But guilt and grief, I thoughtin my head when you were
speaking a minute ago, guilt isalmost a guarantee in grief,
(15:59):
kind of like tears.
But then I thought to myselfthere's some people that don't
cry, um, but I think guiltalmost is right there as common
as tears or sadness.
The more I think about it justsitting here as you said that,
and I'm curious what you guyswould say to that, because, man,
we've heard so many storiesabout guilt.
Erin Nelson (16:21):
We've heard a lot of stories about guilt.
One that stands out to me is adad who talked about how he's
learned to kind of, it's likekind of like a parking garage.
He kind of goes in and parksfor a little while and lets
himself feel that guilt and thenhe kind of drives it back out
and you can't park there forever.
So I think about that it ispart of grief and you need to
(16:46):
express it, you need to feel it,you need to feel that in your
body and just have those regretsand wish things could change
and wish you could go back andall of that.
But then there comes a timewhen I think it does get better,
a little bit softer over time,but where you don't park there
forever and that as you continueto express what you're feeling
(17:10):
and that you can integrate thosefeelings of guilt.
Brad Quillen (17:14):
So I have two questions and, Colleen, I'm
going to come to you for thesecond one, because we hear kids
talk about all the time theguilt and the death of if I
would have acted better atschool, there wouldn't have been
as much pressure at home andall these things.
But, Erin, you said somethingabout feeling it in your body.
There's some that might belistening that think what in the
world does that even mean?
Erin Nelson (17:35):
We have talked so much about these emotions of
grief as having energy and somuch of the time, and sometimes
it will show up for somebody,just like in their throat or
their stomach and their head.
They have pressure, they'll justsay I just have this pressure
(17:56):
in my head and we've talkedabout how sometimes just
expressing those emotions orcrying they'll find some relief
for a time.
But those feelings in your body, it's just part of grief, of
just the energy.
And how do we feel that andexpress it?
(18:17):
The way we feel it and findwhat we need next and that, you
know, as we are expressing it,could be really calling a friend
, it could be taking a walk, itcould be that you're just
connecting somehow or you know,just finding, you know, your
favorite snack and having a mealwith a friend or whatever that
(18:40):
might be.
But it is important that youfeel it, express it and then
find what you need next.
Brad Quillen (18:47):
Yeah, and I'm just so glad we're talking about
this because so many peoplethink, oh, I'm just feeling this
, I'm just off today.
No, it's grief.
You're feeling grief, tightnessin the chest, shortness of
breath, all these things thatI've heard for years.
But, Colleen, what about kiddosand guilt?
Because we hear that often.
Colleen Montague (19:07):
Yeah, we have, of course, the understandable
logical parts of guilt that kidswill bring to us, just the, you
know, I wish I would have spentmore time with him and less
time on my phone.
Maybe a teen might say or Iwish I would have not yelled at
him at the dinner table thatlast time.
(19:29):
And then sometimes there's someillogical pieces of guilt that
kids will hold thinking.
We had a kid once whose daddied of a heart attack and the
kid thought that he actuallycaused it because he had yelled
at his dad a couple nightsbefore.
And so he thought, by the wayhe treated his dad, that that
(19:49):
had caused his dad's heart tostop working.
And you know you can bringlogic to that.
But to Erin's point, it's stillworth going there with them and
just acknowledging you thinkyou think you caused it, you,
you feel bad for yelling at him.
Nothing that you say could makesomeone's body stop working now
(20:10):
.
So allow them to have thatfeeling and don't totally
dismiss it, but then you canbring logic to it for them.
So other ideas of guilt thatwe've seen before are kids.
Naturally we've talked aboutthis dip in and out of their
grief and there's times wherethey're going to feel excitement
again.
You know, maybe they getinvited to a birthday party and
(20:31):
they're really looking forwardto it and then all of a sudden
they realize I can't be excitedabout this, my mom just died,
and then they felt guilty forgoing for going or even just
having a normal emotion ofhappiness, because that can be
there again, we can feel momentsof joy again, and it's okay.
Brad Quillen (20:49):
Yeah, we hear that around activities a lot with
kiddos Like how can I go to thisand my dad not be there or my
mom not be there?
You know, and want to go havefun without them.
Erin Nelson (20:58):
Or they may even be getting some feedback from
their friends of you know, Ithought your mom died.
Why are you laughing or why areyou playing, or why are you at
this party today if your momdied?
And I think kids are teachingus here at Jessica's House they
just want to be normal kids,they want to just go have fun,
(21:19):
they want to go play, they wantto be outside, they want to be
treated the way they always havebeen.
And so being able to, yeah,like counter that guilt in some
ways that you can hold both youcan really miss your mom and you
can have a lot of fun and it'sokay to hold both at the same
time.
And you're not always going tofeel the intensity of your grief
(21:42):
.
You will have times oflightning.
Brad Quillen (21:46):
And for those of you listening, the moms and dads
, that you can laugh too.
Oh yeah, like people come togroup here and do groups with
the adult groups, with us, andthey laugh in group and we see
that emotion, like wait, that'sthe first time I've laughed
since they died right, and theystart to kind of get back into
that a bit.
Erin Nelson (22:02):
Yeah, and I think about that, Brad and Jessica's
House, when we first opened, wehad a teeny, tiny little house
and the parents were in groupand the kids were on, just right
there was just a door and theywere..
Brad Quillen (22:15):
.
.
.
a glass door.
.
.
Erin Nelson (22:16):
.
.
.
yeah, a glass door, and theywere on the very just the next
side of the door.
And here I think about when theparents, when I would be in a
parent group and they heard thekids laughing and just you could
see it, you could feel it onthem that just how much it meant
to them to hear their kidslaughing.
And for the for the kids samething.
When all the parents would justerupt in laughter and the kids
(22:40):
you could just see it broughtcomfort to them as well.
almost like a normal, is backin a little way.
Yeah, and just that we can dip in and out of our
grief, and also there will betimes when we feel levity, and
that's life, and you can feelguilty a little bit about that,
but just keep going and keepletting yourself authentically
grieve in that way.
Brad Quillen (23:01):
And if you're listening and you are needing
more resources and with some ofthese things, with your own life
or your kiddo's life, don'tforget that you can always look
at jessicashouse.
org under the resource tab andfind quite a few things there to
help you.
If this is resonating in anyway this far today.
Erin, can I ask you one lastquestion before we go to break
and Colleen, we talk abouthonoring the wholeness of your
(23:25):
person's story.
Erin Nelson (23:26):
Yeah, when I think about the wholeness of the
person's story is to reallyhonor them for who they were
altogether, which means not onlytheir really great part.
The great parts of them right,but also the hard parts of them
and the human parts of them.
Yes, and when we remembersomebody, it's okay to laugh at
(23:49):
their quirkiness and to also say, yeah and that other, that part
of him that was or her that wasreally difficult, that
disrupted our family at times,like, let's talk about that too,
because that is a very realpart of life that we all of us
live inside of Right, and sohonor the whole person.
(24:12):
It's so tempting sometimes tojust honor and talk about the
good parts, and we want to dothat.
But to honor the whole personis to give respect to who they
were in the not so great partsof them as well, and we have all
kinds of parts of us, right?
Brad Quillen (24:33):
That's right, because there's some that are
listening that you might nothave been together because of
some of those human parts andjust some of those hardships,
and so that this is makes itmore complex with the death and
some of those things.
Colleen Montague (24:46):
So true, it's an unfortunate reality that a
lot of relationships are verystrained.
A lot could be in separation ordivorced, and if that's part of
your story, it certainly doescomplicate things a bit for you.
But the reality is you lovedthem at one part of your life
(25:08):
and you share a family with themyour children and it's okay to
grieve their loss still.
You may even grieve the realityof what can never be.
If you held a hope forreconciliation, and now that's
(25:30):
no more.
Or if they were just a reallyhard person in your life and it
was better to be apart fromthem, but still, you can grieve
their loss.
Brad Quillen (25:37):
Yeah, we just want to acknowledge that piece of
some of the complexities thatcomes in when a spouse dies.
That's going to take us to ourbreak and when we come back
after the break we're going totalk a little bit about social
changes and just some of theways those affect us as we're
grieving.
Gary Shriver (25:54):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
Jessica's House provides freepeer support for children, teens
, young adults and theirfamilies grieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
(26:16):
Jessica's House on social media.
And if you have any questionsor topics you'd like us to
explore in a future episode,just send us an email at info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (26:30):
Welcome back from the break and I wanted to share
an illustration we heard from afamily member here at Jessica's
House not too long ago about theidea that his life with his
wife was kind of scripted ordrawn on an etch-a-sketch as
they were planning for theirfuture and their family and down
the road.
But then his wife ultimatelydied and it's as if someone came
(26:53):
up to his Etch-a-Sketch andtook it and shook it back and
forth and then handed it back tohim and how much confused and
dismantled his life felt oncethat Etch-a-Sketch was shaken
and they handed it back to himand Erin, that sounds a lot like
the adults we work with here atJessica's House.
Erin Nelson (27:11):
Yeah, I think the disorientation of having, like
he said, this Etch-A-Sketch thathe had been building his life
on and having it shaken.
And then I remember him sayingit was just like I had these a
few little squiggles here andthere.
It's like there's a lot,there's some pieces that remain,
(27:34):
but it doesn't look anythinglike it did and it wasn't
anything that he imagined as hebuilt this life.
And so just to have just thiskind of erased life, you know
where do you start, yeah, andeverything looks different,
everything, just this kind oferased life, you know where do
you start?
Brad Quillen (27:48):
Yeah, and everything looks different.
Erin Nelson (27:50):
Everything.
Brad Quillen (27:51):
From parenting to work, to friendships, to social
engagements, all those thingslook different.
Erin Nelson (28:15):
Yeah, I was thinking about just, you know,
something I think about so oftenthat looks so different, that's
rarely talked about, is eventhe difference of not having
someone to share your enjoymentof your children.
Because you know, when you arepartners in raising your kids,
so much of the time you're justkind of looking at them and they
don't have to be doing anythingspecial, they're just kind of
breathing and they're just kindof playing next to you and you
kind of share this little likearen't they cool?
You know, look what we did here, and so you know, and you lose
(28:38):
that forever.
You know you never have someonethat you can share that love,
that deep love and attachment toyour children, you lose that.
Yeah, no one can hold that withyou again.
Brad Quillen (28:55):
The three of us have kids and we understand what
it's like to look across theroom when your kid does
something and just know you'resharing that same thought.
Reacting to the what yourlittle one or old one just did.
Erin Nelson (29:08):
Exactly.
Just sharing those thoughts andlike like kind of jokingly,
like blaming each other for it,whatever it was like.
Brad Quillen (29:17):
That was all you.
Erin Nelson (29:18):
Exactly, yeah, and just those inside jokes, right?
I mean just the things that youshare as parents parenting
these kids and you have thememories that you'll never get
to share.
There are memories no one elsewill have, those early days that
you know no one else was around.
You can never say remember thattime when this child did this
(29:42):
or whatever.
There's no one to share thatwith because no one was even
there with you.
You were in the intimate kindof parts of your home and your
room and your child's room.
No one else saw that.
There's no one to talk to aboutthat.
Brad Quillen (29:54):
Erin, it's so true because there's those
relationships between husbandand wife and spouse and partners
and those things that change sodrastically.
But all of our relationshipschange, even in the world of
friendship they change, and sothat's hard to accept when
things have felt so dismantledwith those other adults around
us.
Coworkers are just people we'veknown for years, and, Colleen,
(30:17):
what do you say to that?
Those that are kind ofstruggling with just friendships
?
Colleen Montague (30:21):
You had the mutual friends between you and
your spouse that you spent timetogether, and we've heard so
often how off it feels aftertheir spouse is gone.
It's really hard for some to bewith those previous friendships
, maybe always feeling like thethird wheel or the fifth wheel.
(30:43):
You also are in relationshipswith others who are also
grieving the loss of yourpartner.
You know with your extendedfamily, somebody lost their
brother and somebody lost theirson, and so you're not grieving
alone, you're grieving withothers, and it can be uniting
and isolating all at the sametime.
Erin Nelson (31:04):
The friendships that even I had with when Tyler
was alive and we had thesecouple friends and you really
never get that back and later on, as I remarried, even we kind
of lost that window of thoseearly marriage couple friends,
and so that changes you, thatchanges forever.
(31:26):
You never go back to havingthose couple friends that you
like to do life with when thekids are young, and so it's just
a big impact.
Brad Quillen (31:35):
It changes everything.
Erin Nelson (31:36):
It does.
Brad Quillen (31:37):
And we've said that in the house that grief
changes everything.
Erin Nelson (31:40):
Yeah, and just losing someone that you're doing
life with every day it does.
It changes every aspect of yourlife, and I know when we've
heard from other parents here atJessica's House, it's they just
say you know, it's just not thesame.
And even though I may beinvited to go to the concert,
you know, with my couple offriends, but we always did that
(32:02):
together, that was somethingthat we shared and it just I
just don't even feel comfortableand I sometimes will feel like,
are they trying to work atincluding me in the conversation
?
It just feels awkward now.
It never felt like this before,and so you're finding your way
again back into your socialcircles and that's not easy.
Colleen Montague (32:24):
And it may even look like a new social
circle, we have a lot of parentshere who have connected with
each other in their groups.
In fact, one mom recently inour group said you know, ever
since my husband died, I've hadso many friendship changes that
actually now a lot of myfriendships have stemmed from a
(32:46):
connection through a loss of aspouse.
You know meeting people here atJessica's House, and so she
made a very interesting pointthat all of her friends now have
lost a spouse.
That's the commonality that shehas found to be helpful in this
stage in life.
Erin Nelson (33:03):
She kind of is doing what we talked about and
she's kind of recreating herlife in some way, of being able
to come to a place where shedoesn't feel so different
because in her everyday lifeshe's feeling so different.
But here at Jessica's House,she is finding others who really
get it.
know, there's no energyinvolved, right, you get to just
(33:29):
put it into the room, you don'thave to explain, it's just,
they just get each other andthey take really good care of
each other.
And that's something reallysweet to watch is the
friendships that are born.
And for our listeners today,I'm thinking about you know, how
do you find not that you haveto find all new friendships, but
sometimes being able to likefind new hobbies or something
(33:53):
that you enjoy, sometimes, aftera spouse dies, because our
identities are so with eachother, there's a little bit of
redefining of yourself, becauseyou kind of go back and think
like you know you said thisearlier about the grocery store,
colleen Colleen like what do Ilike?
You know, what do I like to do?
What have I always dreamed Imight try someday?
(34:16):
And so being able to redefineyourself in some ways, because
you may find some connections ifyou're taking a pottery class
or you're joining a hiking groupor doing something that you may
be never were able to do whenyour spouse was here because you
guys had different interests.
So it is a little redefiningand finding somewhere where you
(34:40):
don't feel quite so alone.
I was curious what you guyswould say to this, because when
you were speaking it made methink back to our episode on the
holidays, that when we go intothe holidays we need to give
ourselves permission to not doeverything or go to everything
or have some outs.
And it came up because, Erin,you were talking about some of
those friendships, like maybeyou're just feeling like the
(35:02):
conversation is forced or it'swork or it's just not natural
anymore, and, Colleen, you weretalking about that third and
fifth wheel piece, like we usedto do double dates with these
different couples and now I'mthe solo person.
What is it like for people togive themselves permissions to
not have to do what they used todo because so much has changed?
And how can someone plan aheadto where they're able to get out
(35:25):
of something when it feels justoff and awkward?
Colleen Montague (35:28):
Yeah, I think your keyword there, Brad, was
planning ahead, but because younever know how you're going to
be feeling in the moment, and sojust having plan A, plan B,
plan C if you will.
But you know, maybe you do wantto accept the invitation
initially, but you could alwayspreface it with, you know, right
(35:48):
now that sounds great, youknow, thank you for the invite.
You know things have been alittle chaotic lately or hard
lately, and so, um, there's a,there's a slight chance I may
need to cancel the day of, butright now count me in.
And that kind of gives you alittle bit of that safety backup
plan in case the day of you'renot feeling it and you won't
(36:11):
know until you get there.
Erin Nelson (36:12):
Yeah, and I think our energy just it changes right
and sometimes we might havemore capacity for some hard
kinds of like things that dotake a little more energy.
And if you're feeling depleted,like you said, it's okay to
just take a break and go tothose easier, and I just would
say look for the flow, likewhere do you find it's a little
(36:35):
bit easier to have thoseconversations and to kind of go
towards that?
And if you're not feeling, ifthings feel really clunky, it's
okay to take a break from that.
Brad Quillen (36:46):
One parent said to me in group one time I always
drive because then I can leave.
And I thought, hmm, so truethat first couple of years they
just said I always drive, so Ihave a way to leave.
I thought that was, that waspretty good, it wouldn't have
dawned on me unless I was inthat scenario.
Colleen Montague (37:03):
Yeah, and you won't, you won't know all the
tips and tricks for yourselfright away.
You're going to learn those intime, and so each experience can
be viewed as a learningopportunity.
You know well, that didn't feelso great, you know, what did I
need instead?
What could I do differentlynext time, or you know what that
kind of worked out well, I'mgoing to do that again in the
future.
I'm going to take my own car.
Brad Quillen (37:23):
Yeah, and, as we're talking about this, for us
as adults, social changes arereal for the kids that we're
parenting.
Erin Nelson (37:31):
Yeah, I think when we're thinking about the kids,
we're thinking about all thechanges that they are
experiencing and it could evenbe through, you know, sports or
friendships, like I know we'vehad kids here at Jessica's House
and their dad was their coachand they were really proud of
(37:53):
him.
You know, when he was part ofthe you know neighborhood, he
was kind of the neighborhood dadin some ways and you know it
was just part, like reallyinvolved, and then all of a
sudden he's not there anymore.
And so I think identity issomething it's like, who am I
now?
Like when I'm not the coach'sson anymore and I don't get to
(38:14):
just stand at the site on thesidelines with him anymore.
And you know, so I thinkthere's a change in identity and
um, and just knowing that askids just go, and there's also
like a redefining in them and Ithink like maybe they're having
a trajectory of maybe what theythought they were going to do,
(38:37):
and then they may look intoother interests that they hadn't
thought about for a while.
Maybe they always played soccer, but now they're going to try
baseball or, you know, maybethey start music or something
like that.
So I think, just as you know,as your life changes, you might
have other opportunities.
Colleen Montague (38:58):
Yeah, i t makes me think of the kid we had
in group once who always wantedto have a cat, but that wasn't,
his dad was allergic to cats,not a big fan, and that was
something that the family didlater on after the dad had died.
You know, they decided, youknow what, I guess we can have a
cat now, and so that was asomething that, of course, they
(39:18):
didn't want to have happen, buta little bit of lightness that
was they were able to bring intothe home.
Erin Nelson (39:24):
Things have changed and now we are identifying just
a different way to go forward.
Colleen Montague (39:29):
Yeah, it's almost worth buying an
Etch-a-Sketch for your familyjust as like a little example of
like hey, this is what wethought we had, and it's been
shaken.
And so now what?
Erin Nelson (39:39):
Yeah, we're going to just turn those knobs and
start rebuilding.
Colleen Montague (39:42):
Yeah, one of the things with that
Etch-a-Sketch and those changesis just the change in roles.
We talked about this earlier,about what your spouse was for
you.
You know, in life and withinthe home, and your kids have
those same impressions or ideals, and so you know who took him
(40:04):
to school every day, was it youor your spouse who did pickup,
who helped with homework, whowas really good at math?
You know who made dinner everynight or most nights, who was
the one that took care of thelawn or the laundry, you know
made sure the baseball uniformwas washed and ready to go.
And so the kids are wonderingyou know who's going to fill
(40:26):
these roles as well.
Erin Nelson (40:28):
Yeah, I was going to say, Colleen, that being able
to say, hey, dad always madedinner.
It's going to look differentnow, but let me tell you who's
who will fill that role.
So, will you be you, or will agrandparent drop off food once a
week and being able to preparethem for, yeah, I can't pick you
up from school anymore becauseI'm not out of work in time, but
(40:52):
this is who will pick you up.
And so, being able tocommunicate any kind of role
change because the person died,communicate that with your child
.
Colleen Montague (41:01):
And also learn from your child, ask them.
You know I know mom put you tobed every night.
What did she do?
What did bedtime look like?
What do you still want me to do?
How did she pack your lunch?
What did she always include?
Is there always like somethingspecial she put in there that
you want me to keep doing?
So let them teach you what wasimportant and what they still
(41:22):
want to see happening.
Erin Nelson (41:24):
Yeah, and what maybe they want to change.
Colleen Montague (41:26):
Absolutely.
So I love what you're saying,Colleen, about just hearing from
the kids.
They give us the best ideas.
Brad Quillen (41:35):
And as you're listening to this, you might've
found yourself as Colleen talkedabout, you know the person who
died was better at math than youand you find yourself being
frustrated about that.
That's okay, because I've heardin groups over the years they
were supposed to be here to dothis, or my favorite is he was
supposed to teach them to drivenot me, like I'm so scared to
teach my kid to drive, or Idon't understand algebra or all
(41:58):
these things, but there's thatfrustration of they were
supposed to be here to help medo this.
Erin Nelson (42:03):
Yeah, you never expect that they won't be there
and some things are going todrop.
That's the reality.
And that's really tough, youknow, and you're not able to
fill every role that that personfilled.
It's okay, it's like somethings will drop because the
reality is they're not hereanymore.
And that's hard and it's sad.
(42:23):
And give yourself the gracethat you need, as you live
inside of this new reality, toknow that you can't do
everything.
And that's tough, but just takeit breath by breath.
Brad Quillen (42:39):
We want to leave you parents and your kiddos with
a expressive art idea and wecall these healing practices.
And Colleen, Erin, who's goingto lead us through that?
Colleen Montague (42:50):
I can.
So one idea we wanted to sharewith you that you can do with
your kiddos or kids, if they'rea little older, is just writing
a letter to the person who died,or even just a little note to
themselves, a little like kindof journal entry.
But with these prompts we wantto give you and just see where
they take you (43:11):
"I miss the times we.
.
.
", I'll never forget.
.
.
, thank you for.
.
.
Any others, Erin?
Erin Nelson (43:25):
I like the one, just, " I wish.
.
.
," you know just getting alltheir wishes out and letting
that be and come together.
You can both answer thesequestions and just be with your
kids as you talk about this andsometimes you're kind of helping
them as the memory kind ofpreserver keeper and you know
being able to talk about thosememories and all the wishes that
you have.
Brad Quillen (43:45):
Well, Erin and Colleen, thank you for this
today.
It's so good and so rich.
For those of you listening, besure to visit us at
jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources orif you have any questions or got
a show idea, reach out to us atinfo@ jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of When
Grief Comes Home, where we'll bediscussing supporting your
(44:06):
child after the death of theirparent.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (44:12):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
(44:33):
Jessica's House on social media,and if you have any questions
or topics you'd like for us toexplore in future episodes, just
send us an email toinfo@jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time, for
When Grief Comes Home.
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