May 6, 2025 • 38 mins
Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief.
In this episode, Brad, Erin, and Colleen explore how tangible reminders, personal stories, and ongoing emotional bonds play essential roles in both adult and child grief processes. By embracing the fullness of relationships and fostering open conversations about grief, families can find meaningful ways to keep memories alive.
Please subscribe to the When Grief Comes Home podcast and leave us a review. The more stars, reviews, and downloads the show receives, the more parents and families in grief can find support.
Order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L
For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gary Shriver (00:00):
Hello and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Now let's go to the team, asthey share grief resources and
(00:48):
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Hello, hello, it's Brad fromJessica's House.
Today we're talking abouthonoring your connection to your
loved one as you grieve.
There are a number of ways thatwe do this.
(01:09):
One of the greatest ways thatwe share is through stories, and
we connect with our loved onesover that.
But there's also physical waysin which we remember them and
sometimes we call those linkingobjects.
Erin, I know there's a numberof personal items that you hold
on to that are linking objectsfor Carter.
Would you mind sharing a few ofthose with us?
Erin Nelson (01:29):
Yeah Brad, you know something that I think about
when I think about Carter andhow I feel connected to him.
One way is just how somethingthat's just kind of shown up for
us in a lot of different placesis a white butterfly.
And you know, it seems to methat a white butterfly will just
(01:51):
come at the exact same time asI really really need it, and so
that's been especiallymeaningful.
Brian and I can think of somany times where we're taking a
walk, even in another city thatwe're visiting, and we'll just
see a white butterfly and wejust feel like, oh, there he is,
you know.
And it's also interesting thatat the same time, I wish it
(02:12):
wasn't a white butterfly, I wishthat it was him, you know, and
sometimes I wish, like that, Ididn't just have to be satisfied
with a white butterfly.
That, you know, that connectioncan kind of make me mad,
sometimes too, in a weird way.
But you know, I was talking toa mom a couple of years ago and
(02:33):
we were talking about our sonsand her son had died as well,
and she was telling me a storyabout how, when she was sitting
by her son's grave one day,there was a really big white owl
that came to sit next to her ina tree that was right next to
his grave and she just said howprofound it was to have that
(02:53):
white owl just come and landthere.
And she looked at me and shesaid, well, how does Carter show
up for you?
And I said, oh, he shows up asa white butterfly.
And she said, you know, maybeyou should ask if he could come
as something a little bigger,like a white owl.
And I thought, you know what,maybe that's a good idea.
Colleen and I were together, wewere at a training out of state
(03:16):
and we were coming home fromthe airport and I was kind of
thinking, I like just wondering,like how would I want Carter to
show up for me in a bigger way?
And when we got to her houseand I was dropping her off,
there was this little baby foxthat was just sitting there
looking at us.
And we kind of laughed becauseI told her the story.
And so now I also look for afox and kind of keep that we
(03:40):
have a fox around Jessica'sHouse and one of our kids has
named him Jesse and it's thecutest thing.
And so I just think about thefox around Jessica's House
someday and he wreaks a littlehavoc, which is just so
Carter-like.
Brad Quillen (03:54):
Very appropriate right.
Erin Nelson (03:55):
Very appropriate.
So, yeah, you know, I thinkwe're always looking for ways to
connect with our loved one,right and just.
I think about listeners todayand sometimes we're just so
desperate for that, just someway that they might be able to
show up for us.
And so there's a body ofresearch by Klass and Silverman
that talks about continuingbonds, and it's a very important
(04:18):
part of our healing, and soit's kind of this idea that when
we have a bond with somebody,that it kind of grows over time
and that even if they die, itcontinues to grow and you can
continue to have a bond withthat person who died and how
important that is for yourhealing.
And there's a lot of researchbehind it and the way you heal
(04:42):
is related to how you feelconnected with them.
And so we just want tointroduce that today and just
talk to our listeners a littlebit about what that might mean
for them as they look for theirperson and what might be
meaningful and how they connectwith them.
Brad Quillen (04:59):
And sometimes, when you're going about your day
or you Bryan are are out andyou see a white butterfly, there
might be a smile that comes,but there might be tears too,
because it's a reminder ofwhat's happened and I think some
people get caught off guard.
I hear that from time to time,that when they're reminded they
get caught off guard.
That that other emotion comesfrom from seeing that that
linking object too.
Erin Nelson (05:19):
Definitely yeah, and sometimes it's just such a
comfort and somehow you know youfeel like they're just showing
up in some way and you may evenkind of feel them a little bit
in that.
And just knowing.
Sometimes you just think like,were they real?
You know, because they're nothere anymore and you have these
memories, but they feel likethey're just not anything that
(05:43):
you can really be tangiblyholding on to.
But when you have something inyour hand maybe it's one of
their belongings, or you seesomething that's real in your
environment, it helps you tohave something tangible, because
memories don't feel that waysometimes, and so I think that's
a really sweet way to just knowthat they were real in
(06:04):
something real is in front ofyou.
Brad Quillen (06:05):
Yeah, that tangible.
Colleen Montague (06:07):
What tangible things do you have of Carter's?
Erin Nelson (06:11):
Well, right now I have his phone kind of sitting
next to me, or just when I getready in the morning I have this
little like just his phone issitting on the counter there and
I just always kind of you know,I was always with him and so he
has a little sticker on it andone of the bands that he liked,
and so I like to just keep itnext to me and, as I've
(06:35):
mentioned before, he was amusician, so on his phone there
are a lot of songs that he sangand just different things like
that.
So I just I like to keep thatnext to me.
I have his clothes still likein his closet that he's seeing,
and just different things likethat.
So I just I like to keep thatnext to me.
I have his clothes still likein his closet and I'll go and
just put on.
He loved flannels and so I'llgo put a shirt on or just like
go look at it, and so I we havethose items and I'm really
(06:58):
grateful for that.
Colleen Montague (07:00):
I appreciate what you said about just that
strong desire.
You're just seeking thatconnection that isn't there in
the way that it used to be, andso how objects can help with
that?
Erin Nelson (07:14):
Definitely, and I think, if I think about that
Klass, Silverman, the kind ofresearch that they did,
something they kind of talkabout how relationships evolve
and mature.
I think one part of his deathand my grief that I've noticed
(07:35):
lately it's been five years isthat I think there was a long
time, right especially rightafter his car accident, that
when I would think of himsometimes I would remember kind
of what happened.
That when I would think of himsometimes I would remember kind
of what happened and it would behard for me not to kind of go
into those images in some ways.
And now I'm finding it a loteasier to just kind of imagine
(07:56):
him next to me and I've just hadthose experiences and I wonder
about that and I wonder aboutkind of how our relationship has
evolved and matured and if it'sa little bit easier now to just
kind of imagine him with me,tell me more about what that
means to imagine him with you.
Yeah, so I think about justrecently I was on an airplane
(08:21):
which I don't love flying, andif it gets a little turbulent, I
was just like, well, who wouldI want next to me right now?
You know, someone that wouldkeep me safe.
And I thought about how Carterwas such a jokester and like if
he was next to me, what would hebe doing, you know?
And he'd probably be sayinglike, oh mom, did you hear that
sound?
That means we're going down, orsomething like that.
(08:43):
And so I was just thinkingabout him and how he just had
such a strong presence and hewas really one of those kids
that just had a lot of courageand he just kind of embodied
stability and he was just asolid kind of presence that he
was just not really afraid ofmuch in the world.
(09:04):
And I'm kind of more the scaredone.
So I was thinking about how,what would he be doing?
Just probably snickering at mea little bit and just kind of
being with me.
But I was imagining him therewith me.
So I just think he would justbe laughing at me, you know in
some ways, and but I just wasimagining that and I'm glad that
(09:25):
I have the ability to kind ofbring him up in that.
Colleen Montague (09:26):
A nd you know, speaking of bringing him up, I
never had the pleasure to meetCarter.
I met you after he had died,and what I am grateful for is
that you have helped me get toknow him through how much you're
willing to talk about him.
You know, and when I askquestions and the stories that
(09:48):
you share, I feel like as thoughI did know him, and so thank
you, and I think that's anotherway that you're honoring your
relationship with him andkeeping that part of him alive
in his memory and who he was
Erin Nelson (10:02):
Well thank you for listening, and I just appreciate
being able to talk about himand I think about our families
and how they also do that and aspart of their healing as they
come here to Jessica's House isto share those memories, and I
think of all the people thatwe've had the honor to know,
because their loved ones areteaching us about them and
(10:26):
keeping their memory alive andtelling their story, and I'm
just so grateful for that.
Colleen Montague (10:32):
We've had kids here at Jessica's house who
wear their you know sibling whodied.
They come wearing their shoesor their shirt and that is a
linking object for them and away for them to introduce their
sibling or their parent to usmaybe, and you know the kind of
band that the brother liked andthe shirt that their sister's
(10:53):
now wearing.
Erin Nelson (10:54):
It's such a gift we get to learn about their
person's favorite color and whatthey love to do and all of that
, and I know other and parentswill even share just dreams that
they've had of the person whodied.
And sometimes they'll say youknow, sometimes it didn't feel
like a dream, it felt like theywere right next to me.
(11:14):
And so I think some of thoseways that we're connecting
whether we're dreaming aboutthem or maybe it's a dream we
wish we could have it's reallyjust keeping that connection
alive.
It's a forever connection, youknow, when we have someone that
we love.
Colleen Montague (11:32):
If that relationship is there, whether
the person is alive or not, youwill always have had that
relationship with them and, likeyou're saying, it even evolves
in time.
But and with that, grief is notsomething that you go through,
it's something that becomes partof you.
So there is no closure orletting go of your relationship
(11:53):
with them.
Erin Nelson (11:53):
Yeah, exactly, and sometimes, like you know, we've
heard from parents that thereare parts of their relationship
that are unfinished.
Maybe some really hard parts oflife that weren't resolved.
I had one mom say to me thattheir marriage is the best it's
ever been because she's beenable to work through some things
(12:17):
that maybe weren't they weren'table to do in life.
You know, but it's, you know,she continues to work through
some of those hard parts and youknow, it's just that
relationship continues.
Yeah, you carry them with you,Absolutely.
Brad Quillen (12:34):
I'm glad you guys have mentioned that the
relationship goes forever,because Dr Alan Wolfelt has a
great quote that I learned many,many years ago from him that
says though death may have endeda life, it doesn't end the
relationship, and that's I'vealways added onto it.
That's always going to be yourmom, it's always gonna be your
brother, your uncle, grandparent, right?
Forever.
And so that's there's noclosure in that.
(12:55):
It's no giving up on thatrelationship or letting it go,
that it's now no longer.
Erin Nelson (13:02):
Right, and I think what Dr Wolfelt does so well is
to really come into a new placeof thinking about that
relationship, that death ends alife, not a relationship.
To say that you know there's noclosure in loss.
It's something that weintegrate over time.
And I think there was a way ofthinking to say, like, after a
(13:24):
year you have closure, you needto have closure.
Maybe it's at the funeralthat's your closure.
And what this research issaying with Klass and Silverman
is that we do have thatrelationship and it's okay to
open yourself up to a new way ofrelating with this person that
was so important to you.
And so we're not saying that,oh, we have to let go of them.
(13:46):
Over time I think that ourrelationship will change with
them.
But you know, you don't have toforce yourself to have closure
or force yourself to let go,just letting the grief process
do what it does.
It's a natural process of loss.
Brad Quillen (14:02):
I hear in group often where family members of
someone that's in group willmention like have you moved on
yet?
Are you ready to date again?
You know how much longer?
So it's a constant that we hearyeah.
Erin Nelson (14:16):
Definitely.
Yeah, there's an expectationand yeah, the moving on piece.
That's just so tough.
Brad Quillen (14:23):
The relationship changes.
Erin Nelson (14:25):
The relationship changes, but I think it makes
people they are more comfortable.
If you're doing like inquotation marks better yeah.
Colleen Montague (14:34):
And if you are seeking closure, I think you're
going to be striving orsearching for something that you
can't actually find or feelright, and so it's not even
something you can achieve.
You can't get closure, it'sgoing to be there forever, and
so acknowledging that, I think,is a first step.
Erin Nelson (14:53):
Yeah, and I think, acknowledging that in some ways
it's sometimes you can evenfacilitate that a little bit,
even with questions, like youknow, I'll never forget or thank
you for, or, you know, like Iwish, like some of those parts
of a relationship, especiallywhen someone dies suddenly maybe
(15:14):
you didn't get a chance to talkto them to just say thank you
for, and some of those pieces ofbeing able to facilitate those
unfinished parts of yourrelationship.
Colleen Montague (15:26):
What about, though, like you know, like the
apology that you never got todeliver or that you never
received and that you can't, now.
You're saying to embrace, thatlean into the wondering and the
wishing, and then do you justhave to let that be enough?
Do you just keep going back tothat because you're never going
to get that apology or reallytruly be able to give it?
Erin Nelson (15:50):
I think, wishing that you could get the apology
right?
And just you know, knowing thatmaybe you don't have it.
I remember doing an activitywith our kids where we had them
write a letter from the personwho died to themselves, you know
, and then they wrote a letterback and so some of those pieces
that maybe they wish they couldhave heard, that would be in
(16:11):
line with that person'scharacter of what they would
have said to them.
So being able to facilitatesome communication after the
person died is is can be reallyhelpful.
Colleen Montague (16:23):
And it's okay to acknowledge what you needed,
even if you can't get that, butjust to be aware and acknowledge
that you needed something.
Erin Nelson (16:31):
Yeah, you needed something.
And even, just you know, we'veheard kids say, like you know,
that they are looking, maybe, toadvice that their dad would
give them, and even though he'snot there, they're wondering,
like, if my dad was here, youknow, I wonder if he would say
this to me.
(16:51):
And so sometimes they can evenfeel a little momentum of what
their dad normally said or didand that what they would say to
them at this time, like you know, and you could even, as a
parent, say, you know, whatwould your dad or what would
your mom say?
What do you think they wouldsay to you in this moment?
Brad Quillen (17:09):
Process that out with a parent or with someone
that knew them well.
Erin Nelson (17:13):
Yes.
Brad Quillen (17:15):
I have a question that just struck me when we were
talking about closing, movingon, letting go, is closing the
door on that relationship,almost saying like they were
never a part of my life.
Like how, how can you do that?
Like how can you just say, oh,that that's closed in my life?
Colleen Montague (17:32):
And to add to that, Brad, I wonder in my mind,
I'm wondering if we want, andwe're seeking, closure from the
pain of it, and that's reallywhat we want.
Brad Quillen (17:41):
We want that gone.
Colleen Montague (17:42):
We want that gone, not them.
Not them, but I hear whatyou're saying.
Erin Nelson (17:46):
Well, it reminds me of that.
We can't even do that in life,right?
Brad Quillen (17:51):
Correct.
Erin Nelson (17:52):
Like you know, once we have a relationship with
somebody, they were part of ourlife in some way, even if it was
a short time, in some way, evenif it was a short time, and
that a lot of thoserelationships that they have
have an impact on us goingforward
Brad Quillen (18:07):
Absolutely.
All the relationships we havehave an impact on us.
Colleen Montague (18:17):
Which is why you don't, you can't know
exactly what your dad would sayto you in this moment, you won't
get that direct advice from him, but because he had an impact
on your life and helped form youto be who you are, you could
have an idea of what he wouldhave said.
Erin Nelson (18:28):
Yeah, because you knew him so well, yeah, yeah,
and that you're missing thatpresence in your life and just
being able to acknowledge that.
Of course it's not the same,but we want to just give
permission that you can continueto just keep that alive, of
their influence, that they hadin your life.
Brad Quillen (18:48):
And sometimes those connections come when we
sit with those linking objects.
Erin Nelson (18:52):
Yeah,
Brad Quillen (18:52):
Holding on to those things, wearing the
flannel right?
Flannel right.
Yeah, Hanging on to somethinglike something they gave to you.
Dr Wolfelt talks about havinghis dad's watch right and just
anything that we might have thatcan link us to that person.
(19:14):
I've had adults talk about, when their adult
children have died, wherethey'll sit in their kid's car
right and just sit in it as ifthey're with them in the car,
you know just those thosemoments.
Erin Nelson (19:26):
Definitely.
I mean, I felt so much comfortin just being in Carter's bed,
you know, and just laying thereand just knowing he laid in
there the night before, whateverit was, and it was just like
you want to touch what theytouched.
I still have his fingerprintsin the garage and on our you
know little banister and I justit.
(19:46):
It feels so good to know thathe was real and that I can touch
what he touched.
Brad Quillen (19:52):
Yeah, it's been so good and we're going to take a
break and come back and talk alittle bit about some of those
items that people leave behindafter they die and how do we
process through those things.
Gary Shriver (20:02):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(20:24):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(20:47):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (20:54):
Welcome back from the break.
We're going to go ahead andcontinue talking about
relationships and the reality ofhow complicated they are, even
after someone dies.
Erin, Colleen, we were talkingoff the air a minute ago about
how complicated relationshipsare and the reality that there
might be things we don't miss.
Erin Nelson (21:12):
Yeah, when we talk at Jessica's House, there's a
little question that we have onone of the games that we play
that says I mean, what do younot miss about the person who
died?
And I think when we're talkingabout remembering the person who
died and staying connected tothe person who died, we want to
make sure that we're stayingconnected to the whole person
(21:33):
right.
All the complexities of whatmakes a human a human, right,
this unfinished part of yourrelationship and anything that
they may have even been workingthrough in their lives and
between the two of you and inyour family.
And so giving that honestattention to the fullness and
(21:54):
complexity of your relationshipjust really helps you find that
most authentic way to grieveright and your most authentic
way to relate to them and tokeep that connection alive.
Brad Quillen (22:05):
I know there's differences even with my kiddos
that, and all of us that areparents that some kids get to us
a little quicker, some it's alittle easier, but we all have
different relationships withthat person who died too.
Erin Nelson (22:16):
Yeah, and I think it really speaks to the
complexity of being human, andthat they are irreplaceable.
No one will be in the world andhave all of the experiences
they have and be just like them.
So they are irreplaceable.
And so, as we honor them and aswe stay connected to them, we
know that they're the onlyperson that could ever fill that
(22:38):
role in your life.
Brad Quillen (22:40):
And in that first segment we were talking about
boy, I would love to have dad ormom's advice on this and we
would love to have some of thosequirks back that made them who
they are.
But there is a reality of Idon't miss this part.
I mean we're all works inprogress, we're all working on
things in our lives and havestruggles, but there's some
things that it's okay to say.
(23:01):
I don't miss that about mom.
I don't miss that about dad ormy brother.
Erin Nelson (23:11):
Right, or if, as a parent, about your spouse who
died, or maybe if your childdied and you know there may be
some really hard parts of them,even as they got older that you
were working on even justparenting, and so to give honor
to all of it working on evenjust parenting, and so to give
honor to all of it.
Colleen Montague (23:27):
And with our kids especially, they don't know
that it's okay to have thoselittle, maybe annoyances or
aspects that they don't miss.
I think that with kids, if theyfeel that way, shame is quick
to follow.
Well, how could I actually thinkthat they're gone, I should
only have respect for thatperson.
But if we as a parent can showthem that it's okay to have
those natural feelings, thosenatural parts of being in a
relationship, that it wasn'tperfect and saying like, yeah,
(23:50):
remember how hard it was.
And so, as a parent, I thinkit's okay to model that for your
kids.
You don't have to go into nittygritty, but it's okay to say
things that you don't miss attimes and give them permission
to express the same or just openup the conversation for them to
share something that was maybehard about their relationship.
(24:11):
So as a parent, you can open upthat dialogue or just allow for
the space of it.
You know, maybe with a child, iftheir sibling was sick for a
long time and spent a lot oftime in the hospital we've heard
from other families how hardthat can be for the other
siblings and so maybe you askyour child.
You know, wow, how was that foryou?
(24:31):
I know it was really hard tospend your birthday in the
hospital.
I bet you don't miss that.
I know you would take yoursister back.
I know you'd love to have herhere, but I know I don't miss
spending that much time in thehospital.
That was really hard.
And so just opening it up forthose feelings to be okay, to
lessen any shame that they mightthink about.
(24:52):
You know, maybe they do feel alittle relief of not having to
be in the hospital so much withtheir sister now, but they would
still want her back.
Brad Quillen (25:01):
In regards to that open dialogue and conversation,
Erin and Colleen, I think I'veseen with kids over the years
being here at the house thatnervous energy inside of kiddos
to ask a question about mom ordad or their brother or sister,
because they're worried it'sgoing to upset mom or dad.
And so as much as we try andconvey that as parents like it's
(25:22):
okay to ask, it seems like ifwe show any emotion that just
reinforces like I don't want todo that because I don't want mom
to cry or I don't want dad tocry but we also need to model
that emotion and that naturalprocess and we miss them too.
It's just so good for kids toknow that there's that open door
all the time for them to askquestions.
Erin Nelson (25:41):
Yeah, I think there is just that opening and the
openness to invite any question.
I know something that Colleenand I have even talked about is
sometimes kids want to saysomething like you know, the
unfinished parts of life wherethey could say I really wish I
(26:05):
wouldn't have said this.
I wish I wouldn't have done that.
Maybe if I would have done thisthis wouldn't have happened.
And how they can blamethemselves and have some guilt
and how jumping in with it's notyour fault, just really quickly
(26:25):
shutting that conversation down, can make a child less likely
to come in, go to their parentwith some of the guilt that they
might be feeling.
Brad Quillen (26:33):
That next time.
Erin Nelson (26:35):
Right.
So, as hard as it is, and thiskind of goes along with the idea
that it's so hard to see yourchild in pain, to reflect back
to them like you kind of feelguilty.
Right now it sounds like you'rekind of feeling guilty.
And to just let them expressthat and to continue to remind a
(27:01):
child that there's nothing youcould do or see that would cause
someone to die, to cause theirbody to stop working right.
Knowing that it's not theirfault, but to invite all the
questions that they might haveand anytime they want to bring
that up.
And you mentioned the tears andI think just that idea of when
you do feel like crying and youmay be hesitant to cry in front
(27:22):
of your child, but letting thoseemotions out when they come up
you know you can take theguesswork out of it.
If you feel like crying and it'sjust coming up for you, just
letting that out, even if yourchild's there, it's okay to do
that and to model that for yourchild, to not let any lag time
(27:43):
go into the feeling what yourbody is needing to do.
Because we've talked beforeabout how crying, just the act
of crying, is your body's way ofjust regulating itself and
coming back to that kind of calmstate that you need to cope
with your loss.
So it's really taking care ofitself, right.
So suppressing it in any waywill cause more harm to your
(28:08):
grief process.
So just letting that be andcrying in front of your child so
that they have permission tolet their body to regulate
itself because our body is aresource that knows what it
needs.
So part of that feeling ofcrying is just your body's way
of just coming back to findingrelief, and so it's so important
to not suppress that.
Brad Quillen (28:29):
Not to get too clinical, but what I hear you
saying is validate, don'tcorrect, and what I mean by that
is validate, don't correct, andwhat I mean by that is validate
the feelings of the guilt, likeyou said.
So you're feeling guilty, youfeel guilty that you said that
or misbehaved, or whatever thething might be, rather than, oh,
you're not at fault, right that, that correction.
Erin Nelson (28:47):
Yeah, Just allowing them to express some of those
hard, difficult emotions becausewe talk about how guilt and
shame it's really part of thegrief process lots of kids feel
it a lot of adults feel it too,right and it's just part of that
grief process and there's noway to get around that.
It's just allowing that to.
(29:08):
I don't know it just like italmost has to just run its
course.
I think of these emotions askind of coming up and like
needing to burn out in some way.
It's like they're there and youhave to let them come into its
own form and it will diminishover time.
But if you try to suppress it,then it can't do that work of
diminishing and to follow onthat.
Colleen Montague (29:28):
Aaron, you had also mentioned that after you
let that process happen and thatmay happen over and over again
you can then, once it's happened, follow up with a little bit of
logic of there isn't anythingthat you said or did that caused
their body to stop working.
So bringing logic to it, butnot correcting or diminishing
(29:50):
the guilt or the questions thatthey're having.
Bringing that up in dialogueand going there wondering with
you know, let them wonder aboutit and reflect that back to them
, but then finishing up theconversations with that logic
piece that will help over timefor them to wrap their mind
around Because I think with kidssometimes they can be very
(30:10):
illogical, the cause and effectthat they think in their minds,
and so that's one way to kind ofkeep that on course.
Brad Quillen (30:18):
So there's some that are listening today that
have kiddos that don't havememories, because we've been
talking about those kiddos thathad a relationship, but there
might be some that they werereally young when dad died, or
brother or sister were reallyyoung.
How do we help them makeconnections to those that have
died, maybe through photos oreven showing them where they
(30:39):
grew up, in their childhood home, like their school, their
elementary school?
How do we help them connect tosome of those pieces that will
tell the story of who's died?
Colleen Montague (30:47):
I like what you started with Brad is just
sharing through stories.
You know they don't have thosememories themselves so you can
share them with them.
You know memories that you haveof the person or memories you
have of your person and yourchild together through photos.
Or we even had a family once,have all the different family
members and friends write abunch of letters to the son to
(31:11):
have and it was memories of hisdad and so just to have a box
full of memories.
They aren't his, but over timethey become his.
I think we've learned thisespecially with our families who
have lost a child throughmiscarriage or stillbirth and
the other siblings really don'thave memories of you know their
sibling, but you could ask youknow about memories they may
(31:33):
have of their mom pregnant, youknow, or when they found out
they were going to have abrother or sister, or memories
around the birth perhaps.
And then I love just back towhat Erin always says just
making space for that, wonderingand wishing.
You know, what do you?
What do you think they wouldhave been like?
What were you, what were youhoping them to be as a little
(31:54):
sister for you?
Erin Nelson (31:55):
Yeah, I know in one of our groups that have it's a
group for stillbirth andpregnancy loss and sometimes we
just say, like what do you thinkyour sibling would do with you
right now if you were to playwith them?
Like what do you wish you coulddo with them?
What do you wish that you?
What would they think aboutDisneyland and you know wherever
(32:18):
it is they're going?
And sometimes if they're notthere, we can just make up for
it in imagination.
Brad Quillen (32:25):
I think it's so neat when you go to a memorial
service or a funeral and theyask people to write stories,
because then it shares so manyother eyeballs and stories of
how they knew that person andsome laughter moments, but sweet
and tender moments too, that weas family or spouses or kids
never knew some of the thingsthe person who died did and some
of the things that happenedaround that.
Colleen Montague (32:47):
Or even through photos you know, asking
friends or family to send youany pictures they may have of
your spouse or your child thatmaybe you haven't seen or that
your children haven't seen.
That's another way.
Just as those stories, thosephotos are a way of helping them
to imagine or picture a memoryof that person, what they may
(33:07):
have been doing at that moment.
Brad Quillen (33:09):
Okay, so we've been in groups for years and
years between the three of usdecades if we add it all up.
What are some of those waysthat you've heard other people
talk about staying connected tothat person who's died, and some
of them in the beginning youmight have been like that's a
bit of a stretch, but afterdoing this work long enough, it
all starts to make sense.
But what are some of those thatyou guys have heard in groups?
Erin Nelson (33:30):
I think about, just like ladybugs and dragonflies
and one of my very favorites wassomeone who had an ice crystal
in their window that looked likethe person who died and when
she compared it with her husbandyou could really see it and I
just think like honoring any waythat somebody feels connected,
(33:53):
just like yes, you know, andjust honoring that connection,
but in so many ways, with nature, with flowers.
I know something that means alot to me are heart rocks and
any kind of heart in nature,leaves and all of that.
Colleen Montague (34:19):
Let them wonder, let them, whatever it is
that they're connecting with,be there for it, rather than
trying to impose logic, you know.
Let that sign be meaningful tothem Like, yes, rainbows come
after the rain, but that is asign from somebody for someone,
and let that be what it is.
Erin Nelson (34:33):
Yeah, exactly, and I'm just thinking about how just
a special sunrise.
We have friends whose daughterloved pink, and anytime we have
a sunrise that has an extra bitof pink in it, I'll send them a
photo.
And so it's just Christmasmorning this year, it was so
pink on Christmas morning and Ijust thought, oh, it just
(34:57):
reminded me of their daughter somuch and so, and it could be
even wind that kind of comes outof nowhere.
Maybe some lightning, ashooting star, a sunset.
Brad Quillen (35:08):
One family once said that when they see leaves
falling from a tree, just as itfloats, that reminds them of
their son, because he would justkind of float through life.
And so I, after that group, Ican remember looking at leaves a
little differently just astheir son would float through
life.
And my mom has often said thatany time that the phone rings at
her house just one time maybeit's a telemarketer or something
(35:31):
went wrong or something thatit's her mom just let her know
that she's there.
And this has been something fornearly 30 years in our family
that we've talked about thatgrandma will just call and hang
up and so but that's somethingthat's been very true over the
years in our family.
Colleen Montague (35:45):
Yeah, even just like numbers.
I heard so much about the powerof numbers for people and
whether they're sequentialnumbers.
We've heard of angel numberswith 333, 444, 111, or 134
represents I love you.
Maybe even seeing theirbirthdates or anniversaries,
special dates, in number form onthe clock.
(36:07):
Those can be very anchoring forsome and definitely feel like a
sign.
Erin Nelson (36:13):
Flickering lights.
After Carter died we had a doorthat opened kind of with the
wind and we all, like looked ateach other like Carter, there
you are, and yeah, or even asmell
Brad Quillen (36:27):
Yeah, colognes, I've heard a lot.
Erin Nelson (36:29):
Right, yeah, where you're just like, oh, I just
smelled that and then maybe youwant to follow that scent in
some way.
Brad Quillen (36:35):
One family mentioned that every time it
rains it reminds us that thesadness, but then that the sun
comes back out that there'slaughter in the stories and the
joy of who they were, and so Ithought that was always pretty
clever.
Erin Nelson (36:48):
I really, really just appreciate all the ways
that you can connect with yourloved one, and it really matters
.
Brad Quillen (36:56):
Because that relationship continues.
Thank you so much, Erin andColleen, for being with me today
.
For those of you listening, besure to visit jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources andif you have any other topics or
questions you'd like us tocover on this podcast, we
welcome your email at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of When
(37:18):
Grief Comes Home.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (37:22):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's centralValley.
Since 2012, we provide freepeer support for children, teens
, young adults and theirfamilies grieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(37:44):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(38:06):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info at
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
Hello and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Now let's go to the team, asthey share grief resources and
(00:48):
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Hello, hello, it's Brad fromJessica's House.
Today we're talking abouthonoring your connection to your
loved one as you grieve.
There are a number of ways thatwe do this.
(01:09):
One of the greatest ways thatwe share is through stories, and
we connect with our loved onesover that.
But there's also physical waysin which we remember them and
sometimes we call those linkingobjects.
Erin, I know there's a numberof personal items that you hold
on to that are linking objectsfor Carter.
Would you mind sharing a few ofthose with us?
Erin Nelson (01:29):
Yeah Brad, you know something that I think about
when I think about Carter andhow I feel connected to him.
One way is just how somethingthat's just kind of shown up for
us in a lot of different placesis a white butterfly.
And you know, it seems to methat a white butterfly will just
(01:51):
come at the exact same time asI really really need it, and so
that's been especiallymeaningful.
Brian and I can think of somany times where we're taking a
walk, even in another city thatwe're visiting, and we'll just
see a white butterfly and wejust feel like, oh, there he is,
you know.
And it's also interesting thatat the same time, I wish it
(02:12):
wasn't a white butterfly, I wishthat it was him, you know, and
sometimes I wish, like that, Ididn't just have to be satisfied
with a white butterfly.
That, you know, that connectioncan kind of make me mad,
sometimes too, in a weird way.
But you know, I was talking toa mom a couple of years ago and
(02:33):
we were talking about our sonsand her son had died as well,
and she was telling me a storyabout how, when she was sitting
by her son's grave one day,there was a really big white owl
that came to sit next to her ina tree that was right next to
his grave and she just said howprofound it was to have that
(02:53):
white owl just come and landthere.
And she looked at me and shesaid, well, how does Carter show
up for you?
And I said, oh, he shows up asa white butterfly.
And she said, you know, maybeyou should ask if he could come
as something a little bigger,like a white owl.
And I thought, you know what,maybe that's a good idea.
Colleen and I were together, wewere at a training out of state
(03:16):
and we were coming home fromthe airport and I was kind of
thinking, I like just wondering,like how would I want Carter to
show up for me in a bigger way?
And when we got to her houseand I was dropping her off,
there was this little baby foxthat was just sitting there
looking at us.
And we kind of laughed becauseI told her the story.
And so now I also look for afox and kind of keep that we
(03:40):
have a fox around Jessica'sHouse and one of our kids has
named him Jesse and it's thecutest thing.
And so I just think about thefox around Jessica's House
someday and he wreaks a littlehavoc, which is just so
Carter-like.
Brad Quillen (03:54):
Very appropriate right.
Erin Nelson (03:55):
Very appropriate.
So, yeah, you know, I thinkwe're always looking for ways to
connect with our loved one,right and just.
I think about listeners todayand sometimes we're just so
desperate for that, just someway that they might be able to
show up for us.
And so there's a body ofresearch by Klass and Silverman
that talks about continuingbonds, and it's a very important
(04:18):
part of our healing, and soit's kind of this idea that when
we have a bond with somebody,that it kind of grows over time
and that even if they die, itcontinues to grow and you can
continue to have a bond withthat person who died and how
important that is for yourhealing.
And there's a lot of researchbehind it and the way you heal
(04:42):
is related to how you feelconnected with them.
And so we just want tointroduce that today and just
talk to our listeners a littlebit about what that might mean
for them as they look for theirperson and what might be
meaningful and how they connectwith them.
Brad Quillen (04:59):
And sometimes, when you're going about your day
or you Bryan are are out andyou see a white butterfly, there
might be a smile that comes,but there might be tears too,
because it's a reminder ofwhat's happened and I think some
people get caught off guard.
I hear that from time to time,that when they're reminded they
get caught off guard.
That that other emotion comesfrom from seeing that that
linking object too.
Erin Nelson (05:19):
Definitely yeah, and sometimes it's just such a
comfort and somehow you know youfeel like they're just showing
up in some way and you may evenkind of feel them a little bit
in that.
And just knowing.
Sometimes you just think like,were they real?
You know, because they're nothere anymore and you have these
memories, but they feel likethey're just not anything that
(05:43):
you can really be tangiblyholding on to.
But when you have something inyour hand maybe it's one of
their belongings, or you seesomething that's real in your
environment, it helps you tohave something tangible, because
memories don't feel that waysometimes, and so I think that's
a really sweet way to just knowthat they were real in
(06:04):
something real is in front ofyou.
Brad Quillen (06:05):
Yeah, that tangible.
Colleen Montague (06:07):
What tangible things do you have of Carter's?
Erin Nelson (06:11):
Well, right now I have his phone kind of sitting
next to me, or just when I getready in the morning I have this
little like just his phone issitting on the counter there and
I just always kind of you know,I was always with him and so he
has a little sticker on it andone of the bands that he liked,
and so I like to just keep itnext to me and, as I've
(06:35):
mentioned before, he was amusician, so on his phone there
are a lot of songs that he sangand just different things like
that.
So I just I like to keep thatnext to me.
I have his clothes still likein his closet that he's seeing,
and just different things likethat.
So I just I like to keep thatnext to me.
I have his clothes still likein his closet and I'll go and
just put on.
He loved flannels and so I'llgo put a shirt on or just like
go look at it, and so I we havethose items and I'm really
(06:58):
grateful for that.
Colleen Montague (07:00):
I appreciate what you said about just that
strong desire.
You're just seeking thatconnection that isn't there in
the way that it used to be, andso how objects can help with
that?
Erin Nelson (07:14):
Definitely, and I think, if I think about that
Klass, Silverman, the kind ofresearch that they did,
something they kind of talkabout how relationships evolve
and mature.
I think one part of his deathand my grief that I've noticed
(07:35):
lately it's been five years isthat I think there was a long
time, right especially rightafter his car accident, that
when I would think of himsometimes I would remember kind
of what happened.
That when I would think of himsometimes I would remember kind
of what happened and it would behard for me not to kind of go
into those images in some ways.
And now I'm finding it a loteasier to just kind of imagine
(07:56):
him next to me and I've just hadthose experiences and I wonder
about that and I wonder aboutkind of how our relationship has
evolved and matured and if it'sa little bit easier now to just
kind of imagine him with me,tell me more about what that
means to imagine him with you.
Yeah, so I think about justrecently I was on an airplane
(08:21):
which I don't love flying, andif it gets a little turbulent, I
was just like, well, who wouldI want next to me right now?
You know, someone that wouldkeep me safe.
And I thought about how Carterwas such a jokester and like if
he was next to me, what would hebe doing, you know?
And he'd probably be sayinglike, oh mom, did you hear that
sound?
That means we're going down, orsomething like that.
(08:43):
And so I was just thinkingabout him and how he just had
such a strong presence and hewas really one of those kids
that just had a lot of courageand he just kind of embodied
stability and he was just asolid kind of presence that he
was just not really afraid ofmuch in the world.
(09:04):
And I'm kind of more the scaredone.
So I was thinking about how,what would he be doing?
Just probably snickering at mea little bit and just kind of
being with me.
But I was imagining him therewith me.
So I just think he would justbe laughing at me, you know in
some ways, and but I just wasimagining that and I'm glad that
(09:25):
I have the ability to kind ofbring him up in that.
Colleen Montague (09:26):
A nd you know, speaking of bringing him up, I
never had the pleasure to meetCarter.
I met you after he had died,and what I am grateful for is
that you have helped me get toknow him through how much you're
willing to talk about him.
You know, and when I askquestions and the stories that
(09:48):
you share, I feel like as thoughI did know him, and so thank
you, and I think that's anotherway that you're honoring your
relationship with him andkeeping that part of him alive
in his memory and who he was
Erin Nelson (10:02):
Well thank you for listening, and I just appreciate
being able to talk about himand I think about our families
and how they also do that and aspart of their healing as they
come here to Jessica's House isto share those memories, and I
think of all the people thatwe've had the honor to know,
because their loved ones areteaching us about them and
(10:26):
keeping their memory alive andtelling their story, and I'm
just so grateful for that.
Colleen Montague (10:32):
We've had kids here at Jessica's house who
wear their you know sibling whodied.
They come wearing their shoesor their shirt and that is a
linking object for them and away for them to introduce their
sibling or their parent to usmaybe, and you know the kind of
band that the brother liked andthe shirt that their sister's
(10:53):
now wearing.
Erin Nelson (10:54):
It's such a gift we get to learn about their
person's favorite color and whatthey love to do and all of that
, and I know other and parentswill even share just dreams that
they've had of the person whodied.
And sometimes they'll say youknow, sometimes it didn't feel
like a dream, it felt like theywere right next to me.
(11:14):
And so I think some of thoseways that we're connecting
whether we're dreaming aboutthem or maybe it's a dream we
wish we could have it's reallyjust keeping that connection
alive.
It's a forever connection, youknow, when we have someone that
we love.
Colleen Montague (11:32):
If that relationship is there, whether
the person is alive or not, youwill always have had that
relationship with them and, likeyou're saying, it even evolves
in time.
But and with that, grief is notsomething that you go through,
it's something that becomes partof you.
So there is no closure orletting go of your relationship
(11:53):
with them.
Erin Nelson (11:53):
Yeah, exactly, and sometimes, like you know, we've
heard from parents that thereare parts of their relationship
that are unfinished.
Maybe some really hard parts oflife that weren't resolved.
I had one mom say to me thattheir marriage is the best it's
ever been because she's beenable to work through some things
(12:17):
that maybe weren't they weren'table to do in life.
You know, but it's, you know,she continues to work through
some of those hard parts and youknow, it's just that
relationship continues.
Yeah, you carry them with you,Absolutely.
Brad Quillen (12:34):
I'm glad you guys have mentioned that the
relationship goes forever,because Dr Alan Wolfelt has a
great quote that I learned many,many years ago from him that
says though death may have endeda life, it doesn't end the
relationship, and that's I'vealways added onto it.
That's always going to be yourmom, it's always gonna be your
brother, your uncle, grandparent, right?
Forever.
And so that's there's noclosure in that.
(12:55):
It's no giving up on thatrelationship or letting it go,
that it's now no longer.
Erin Nelson (13:02):
Right, and I think what Dr Wolfelt does so well is
to really come into a new placeof thinking about that
relationship, that death ends alife, not a relationship.
To say that you know there's noclosure in loss.
It's something that weintegrate over time.
And I think there was a way ofthinking to say, like, after a
(13:24):
year you have closure, you needto have closure.
Maybe it's at the funeralthat's your closure.
And what this research issaying with Klass and Silverman
is that we do have thatrelationship and it's okay to
open yourself up to a new way ofrelating with this person that
was so important to you.
And so we're not saying that,oh, we have to let go of them.
(13:46):
Over time I think that ourrelationship will change with
them.
But you know, you don't have toforce yourself to have closure
or force yourself to let go,just letting the grief process
do what it does.
It's a natural process of loss.
Brad Quillen (14:02):
I hear in group often where family members of
someone that's in group willmention like have you moved on
yet?
Are you ready to date again?
You know how much longer?
So it's a constant that we hearyeah.
Erin Nelson (14:16):
Definitely.
Yeah, there's an expectationand yeah, the moving on piece.
That's just so tough.
Brad Quillen (14:23):
The relationship changes.
Erin Nelson (14:25):
The relationship changes, but I think it makes
people they are more comfortable.
If you're doing like inquotation marks better yeah.
Colleen Montague (14:34):
And if you are seeking closure, I think you're
going to be striving orsearching for something that you
can't actually find or feelright, and so it's not even
something you can achieve.
You can't get closure, it'sgoing to be there forever, and
so acknowledging that, I think,is a first step.
Erin Nelson (14:53):
Yeah, and I think, acknowledging that in some ways
it's sometimes you can evenfacilitate that a little bit,
even with questions, like youknow, I'll never forget or thank
you for, or, you know, like Iwish, like some of those parts
of a relationship, especiallywhen someone dies suddenly maybe
(15:14):
you didn't get a chance to talkto them to just say thank you
for, and some of those pieces ofbeing able to facilitate those
unfinished parts of yourrelationship.
Colleen Montague (15:26):
What about, though, like you know, like the
apology that you never got todeliver or that you never
received and that you can't, now.
You're saying to embrace, thatlean into the wondering and the
wishing, and then do you justhave to let that be enough?
Do you just keep going back tothat because you're never going
to get that apology or reallytruly be able to give it?
Erin Nelson (15:50):
I think, wishing that you could get the apology
right?
And just you know, knowing thatmaybe you don't have it.
I remember doing an activitywith our kids where we had them
write a letter from the personwho died to themselves, you know
, and then they wrote a letterback and so some of those pieces
that maybe they wish they couldhave heard, that would be in
(16:11):
line with that person'scharacter of what they would
have said to them.
So being able to facilitatesome communication after the
person died is is can be reallyhelpful.
Colleen Montague (16:23):
And it's okay to acknowledge what you needed,
even if you can't get that, butjust to be aware and acknowledge
that you needed something.
Erin Nelson (16:31):
Yeah, you needed something.
And even, just you know, we'veheard kids say, like you know,
that they are looking, maybe, toadvice that their dad would
give them, and even though he'snot there, they're wondering,
like, if my dad was here, youknow, I wonder if he would say
this to me.
(16:51):
And so sometimes they can evenfeel a little momentum of what
their dad normally said or didand that what they would say to
them at this time, like you know, and you could even, as a
parent, say, you know, whatwould your dad or what would
your mom say?
What do you think they wouldsay to you in this moment?
Brad Quillen (17:09):
Process that out with a parent or with someone
that knew them well.
Erin Nelson (17:13):
Yes.
Brad Quillen (17:15):
I have a question that just struck me when we were
talking about closing, movingon, letting go, is closing the
door on that relationship,almost saying like they were
never a part of my life.
Like how, how can you do that?
Like how can you just say, oh,that that's closed in my life?
Colleen Montague (17:32):
And to add to that, Brad, I wonder in my mind,
I'm wondering if we want, andwe're seeking, closure from the
pain of it, and that's reallywhat we want.
Brad Quillen (17:41):
We want that gone.
Colleen Montague (17:42):
We want that gone, not them.
Not them, but I hear whatyou're saying.
Erin Nelson (17:46):
Well, it reminds me of that.
We can't even do that in life,right?
Brad Quillen (17:51):
Correct.
Erin Nelson (17:52):
Like you know, once we have a relationship with
somebody, they were part of ourlife in some way, even if it was
a short time, in some way, evenif it was a short time, and
that a lot of thoserelationships that they have
have an impact on us goingforward
Brad Quillen (18:07):
Absolutely.
All the relationships we havehave an impact on us.
Colleen Montague (18:17):
Which is why you don't, you can't know
exactly what your dad would sayto you in this moment, you won't
get that direct advice from him, but because he had an impact
on your life and helped form youto be who you are, you could
have an idea of what he wouldhave said.
Erin Nelson (18:28):
Yeah, because you knew him so well, yeah, yeah,
and that you're missing thatpresence in your life and just
being able to acknowledge that.
Of course it's not the same,but we want to just give
permission that you can continueto just keep that alive, of
their influence, that they hadin your life.
Brad Quillen (18:48):
And sometimes those connections come when we
sit with those linking objects.
Erin Nelson (18:52):
Yeah,
Brad Quillen (18:52):
Holding on to those things, wearing the
flannel right?
Flannel right.
Yeah, Hanging on to somethinglike something they gave to you.
Dr Wolfelt talks about havinghis dad's watch right and just
anything that we might have thatcan link us to that person.
(19:14):
I've had adults talk about, when their adult
children have died, wherethey'll sit in their kid's car
right and just sit in it as ifthey're with them in the car,
you know just those thosemoments.
Erin Nelson (19:26):
Definitely.
I mean, I felt so much comfortin just being in Carter's bed,
you know, and just laying thereand just knowing he laid in
there the night before, whateverit was, and it was just like
you want to touch what theytouched.
I still have his fingerprintsin the garage and on our you
know little banister and I justit.
(19:46):
It feels so good to know thathe was real and that I can touch
what he touched.
Brad Quillen (19:52):
Yeah, it's been so good and we're going to take a
break and come back and talk alittle bit about some of those
items that people leave behindafter they die and how do we
process through those things.
Gary Shriver (20:02):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(20:24):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(20:47):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (20:54):
Welcome back from the break.
We're going to go ahead andcontinue talking about
relationships and the reality ofhow complicated they are, even
after someone dies.
Erin, Colleen, we were talkingoff the air a minute ago about
how complicated relationshipsare and the reality that there
might be things we don't miss.
Erin Nelson (21:12):
Yeah, when we talk at Jessica's House, there's a
little question that we have onone of the games that we play
that says I mean, what do younot miss about the person who
died?
And I think when we're talkingabout remembering the person who
died and staying connected tothe person who died, we want to
make sure that we're stayingconnected to the whole person
(21:33):
right.
All the complexities of whatmakes a human a human, right,
this unfinished part of yourrelationship and anything that
they may have even been workingthrough in their lives and
between the two of you and inyour family.
And so giving that honestattention to the fullness and
(21:54):
complexity of your relationshipjust really helps you find that
most authentic way to grieveright and your most authentic
way to relate to them and tokeep that connection alive.
Brad Quillen (22:05):
I know there's differences even with my kiddos
that, and all of us that areparents that some kids get to us
a little quicker, some it's alittle easier, but we all have
different relationships withthat person who died too.
Erin Nelson (22:16):
Yeah, and I think it really speaks to the
complexity of being human, andthat they are irreplaceable.
No one will be in the world andhave all of the experiences
they have and be just like them.
So they are irreplaceable.
And so, as we honor them and aswe stay connected to them, we
know that they're the onlyperson that could ever fill that
(22:38):
role in your life.
Brad Quillen (22:40):
And in that first segment we were talking about
boy, I would love to have dad ormom's advice on this and we
would love to have some of thosequirks back that made them who
they are.
But there is a reality of Idon't miss this part.
I mean we're all works inprogress, we're all working on
things in our lives and havestruggles, but there's some
things that it's okay to say.
(23:01):
I don't miss that about mom.
I don't miss that about dad ormy brother.
Erin Nelson (23:11):
Right, or if, as a parent, about your spouse who
died, or maybe if your childdied and you know there may be
some really hard parts of them,even as they got older that you
were working on even justparenting, and so to give honor
to all of it working on evenjust parenting, and so to give
honor to all of it.
Colleen Montague (23:27):
And with our kids especially, they don't know
that it's okay to have thoselittle, maybe annoyances or
aspects that they don't miss.
I think that with kids, if theyfeel that way, shame is quick
to follow.
Well, how could I actually thinkthat they're gone, I should
only have respect for thatperson.
But if we as a parent can showthem that it's okay to have
those natural feelings, thosenatural parts of being in a
relationship, that it wasn'tperfect and saying like, yeah,
(23:50):
remember how hard it was.
And so, as a parent, I thinkit's okay to model that for your
kids.
You don't have to go into nittygritty, but it's okay to say
things that you don't miss attimes and give them permission
to express the same or just openup the conversation for them to
share something that was maybehard about their relationship.
(24:11):
So as a parent, you can open upthat dialogue or just allow for
the space of it.
You know, maybe with a child, iftheir sibling was sick for a
long time and spent a lot oftime in the hospital we've heard
from other families how hardthat can be for the other
siblings and so maybe you askyour child.
You know, wow, how was that foryou?
(24:31):
I know it was really hard tospend your birthday in the
hospital.
I bet you don't miss that.
I know you would take yoursister back.
I know you'd love to have herhere, but I know I don't miss
spending that much time in thehospital.
That was really hard.
And so just opening it up forthose feelings to be okay, to
lessen any shame that they mightthink about.
(24:52):
You know, maybe they do feel alittle relief of not having to
be in the hospital so much withtheir sister now, but they would
still want her back.
Brad Quillen (25:01):
In regards to that open dialogue and conversation,
Erin and Colleen, I think I'veseen with kids over the years
being here at the house thatnervous energy inside of kiddos
to ask a question about mom ordad or their brother or sister,
because they're worried it'sgoing to upset mom or dad.
And so as much as we try andconvey that as parents like it's
(25:22):
okay to ask, it seems like ifwe show any emotion that just
reinforces like I don't want todo that because I don't want mom
to cry or I don't want dad tocry but we also need to model
that emotion and that naturalprocess and we miss them too.
It's just so good for kids toknow that there's that open door
all the time for them to askquestions.
Erin Nelson (25:41):
Yeah, I think there is just that opening and the
openness to invite any question.
I know something that Colleenand I have even talked about is
sometimes kids want to saysomething like you know, the
unfinished parts of life wherethey could say I really wish I
(26:05):
wouldn't have said this.
I wish I wouldn't have done that.
Maybe if I would have done thisthis wouldn't have happened.
And how they can blamethemselves and have some guilt
and how jumping in with it's notyour fault, just really quickly
(26:25):
shutting that conversation down, can make a child less likely
to come in, go to their parentwith some of the guilt that they
might be feeling.
Brad Quillen (26:33):
That next time.
Erin Nelson (26:35):
Right.
So, as hard as it is, and thiskind of goes along with the idea
that it's so hard to see yourchild in pain, to reflect back
to them like you kind of feelguilty.
Right now it sounds like you'rekind of feeling guilty.
And to just let them expressthat and to continue to remind a
(27:01):
child that there's nothing youcould do or see that would cause
someone to die, to cause theirbody to stop working right.
Knowing that it's not theirfault, but to invite all the
questions that they might haveand anytime they want to bring
that up.
And you mentioned the tears andI think just that idea of when
you do feel like crying and youmay be hesitant to cry in front
(27:22):
of your child, but letting thoseemotions out when they come up
you know you can take theguesswork out of it.
If you feel like crying and it'sjust coming up for you, just
letting that out, even if yourchild's there, it's okay to do
that and to model that for yourchild, to not let any lag time
(27:43):
go into the feeling what yourbody is needing to do.
Because we've talked beforeabout how crying, just the act
of crying, is your body's way ofjust regulating itself and
coming back to that kind of calmstate that you need to cope
with your loss.
So it's really taking care ofitself, right.
So suppressing it in any waywill cause more harm to your
(28:08):
grief process.
So just letting that be andcrying in front of your child so
that they have permission tolet their body to regulate
itself because our body is aresource that knows what it
needs.
So part of that feeling ofcrying is just your body's way
of just coming back to findingrelief, and so it's so important
to not suppress that.
Brad Quillen (28:29):
Not to get too clinical, but what I hear you
saying is validate, don'tcorrect, and what I mean by that
is validate, don't correct, andwhat I mean by that is validate
the feelings of the guilt, likeyou said.
So you're feeling guilty, youfeel guilty that you said that
or misbehaved, or whatever thething might be, rather than, oh,
you're not at fault, right that, that correction.
Erin Nelson (28:47):
Yeah, Just allowing them to express some of those
hard, difficult emotions becausewe talk about how guilt and
shame it's really part of thegrief process lots of kids feel
it a lot of adults feel it too,right and it's just part of that
grief process and there's noway to get around that.
It's just allowing that to.
(29:08):
I don't know it just like italmost has to just run its
course.
I think of these emotions askind of coming up and like
needing to burn out in some way.
It's like they're there and youhave to let them come into its
own form and it will diminishover time.
But if you try to suppress it,then it can't do that work of
diminishing and to follow onthat.
Colleen Montague (29:28):
Aaron, you had also mentioned that after you
let that process happen and thatmay happen over and over again
you can then, once it's happened, follow up with a little bit of
logic of there isn't anythingthat you said or did that caused
their body to stop working.
So bringing logic to it, butnot correcting or diminishing
(29:50):
the guilt or the questions thatthey're having.
Bringing that up in dialogueand going there wondering with
you know, let them wonder aboutit and reflect that back to them
, but then finishing up theconversations with that logic
piece that will help over timefor them to wrap their mind
around Because I think with kidssometimes they can be very
(30:10):
illogical, the cause and effectthat they think in their minds,
and so that's one way to kind ofkeep that on course.
Brad Quillen (30:18):
So there's some that are listening today that
have kiddos that don't havememories, because we've been
talking about those kiddos thathad a relationship, but there
might be some that they werereally young when dad died, or
brother or sister were reallyyoung.
How do we help them makeconnections to those that have
died, maybe through photos oreven showing them where they
(30:39):
grew up, in their childhood home, like their school, their
elementary school?
How do we help them connect tosome of those pieces that will
tell the story of who's died?
Colleen Montague (30:47):
I like what you started with Brad is just
sharing through stories.
You know they don't have thosememories themselves so you can
share them with them.
You know memories that you haveof the person or memories you
have of your person and yourchild together through photos.
Or we even had a family once,have all the different family
members and friends write abunch of letters to the son to
(31:11):
have and it was memories of hisdad and so just to have a box
full of memories.
They aren't his, but over timethey become his.
I think we've learned thisespecially with our families who
have lost a child throughmiscarriage or stillbirth and
the other siblings really don'thave memories of you know their
sibling, but you could ask youknow about memories they may
(31:33):
have of their mom pregnant, youknow, or when they found out
they were going to have abrother or sister, or memories
around the birth perhaps.
And then I love just back towhat Erin always says just
making space for that, wonderingand wishing.
You know, what do you?
What do you think they wouldhave been like?
What were you, what were youhoping them to be as a little
(31:54):
sister for you?
Erin Nelson (31:55):
Yeah, I know in one of our groups that have it's a
group for stillbirth andpregnancy loss and sometimes we
just say, like what do you thinkyour sibling would do with you
right now if you were to playwith them?
Like what do you wish you coulddo with them?
What do you wish that you?
What would they think aboutDisneyland and you know wherever
(32:18):
it is they're going?
And sometimes if they're notthere, we can just make up for
it in imagination.
Brad Quillen (32:25):
I think it's so neat when you go to a memorial
service or a funeral and theyask people to write stories,
because then it shares so manyother eyeballs and stories of
how they knew that person andsome laughter moments, but sweet
and tender moments too, that weas family or spouses or kids
never knew some of the thingsthe person who died did and some
of the things that happenedaround that.
Colleen Montague (32:47):
Or even through photos you know, asking
friends or family to send youany pictures they may have of
your spouse or your child thatmaybe you haven't seen or that
your children haven't seen.
That's another way.
Just as those stories, thosephotos are a way of helping them
to imagine or picture a memoryof that person, what they may
(33:07):
have been doing at that moment.
Brad Quillen (33:09):
Okay, so we've been in groups for years and
years between the three of usdecades if we add it all up.
What are some of those waysthat you've heard other people
talk about staying connected tothat person who's died, and some
of them in the beginning youmight have been like that's a
bit of a stretch, but afterdoing this work long enough, it
all starts to make sense.
But what are some of those thatyou guys have heard in groups?
Erin Nelson (33:30):
I think about, just like ladybugs and dragonflies
and one of my very favorites wassomeone who had an ice crystal
in their window that looked likethe person who died and when
she compared it with her husbandyou could really see it and I
just think like honoring any waythat somebody feels connected,
(33:53):
just like yes, you know, andjust honoring that connection,
but in so many ways, with nature, with flowers.
I know something that means alot to me are heart rocks and
any kind of heart in nature,leaves and all of that.
Colleen Montague (34:19):
Let them wonder, let them, whatever it is
that they're connecting with,be there for it, rather than
trying to impose logic, you know.
Let that sign be meaningful tothem Like, yes, rainbows come
after the rain, but that is asign from somebody for someone,
and let that be what it is.
Erin Nelson (34:33):
Yeah, exactly, and I'm just thinking about how just
a special sunrise.
We have friends whose daughterloved pink, and anytime we have
a sunrise that has an extra bitof pink in it, I'll send them a
photo.
And so it's just Christmasmorning this year, it was so
pink on Christmas morning and Ijust thought, oh, it just
(34:57):
reminded me of their daughter somuch and so, and it could be
even wind that kind of comes outof nowhere.
Maybe some lightning, ashooting star, a sunset.
Brad Quillen (35:08):
One family once said that when they see leaves
falling from a tree, just as itfloats, that reminds them of
their son, because he would justkind of float through life.
And so I, after that group, Ican remember looking at leaves a
little differently just astheir son would float through
life.
And my mom has often said thatany time that the phone rings at
her house just one time maybeit's a telemarketer or something
(35:31):
went wrong or something thatit's her mom just let her know
that she's there.
And this has been something fornearly 30 years in our family
that we've talked about thatgrandma will just call and hang
up and so but that's somethingthat's been very true over the
years in our family.
Colleen Montague (35:45):
Yeah, even just like numbers.
I heard so much about the powerof numbers for people and
whether they're sequentialnumbers.
We've heard of angel numberswith 333, 444, 111, or 134
represents I love you.
Maybe even seeing theirbirthdates or anniversaries,
special dates, in number form onthe clock.
(36:07):
Those can be very anchoring forsome and definitely feel like a
sign.
Erin Nelson (36:13):
Flickering lights.
After Carter died we had a doorthat opened kind of with the
wind and we all, like looked ateach other like Carter, there
you are, and yeah, or even asmell
Brad Quillen (36:27):
Yeah, colognes, I've heard a lot.
Erin Nelson (36:29):
Right, yeah, where you're just like, oh, I just
smelled that and then maybe youwant to follow that scent in
some way.
Brad Quillen (36:35):
One family mentioned that every time it
rains it reminds us that thesadness, but then that the sun
comes back out that there'slaughter in the stories and the
joy of who they were, and so Ithought that was always pretty
clever.
Erin Nelson (36:48):
I really, really just appreciate all the ways
that you can connect with yourloved one, and it really matters
.
Brad Quillen (36:56):
Because that relationship continues.
Thank you so much, Erin andColleen, for being with me today
.
For those of you listening, besure to visit jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources andif you have any other topics or
questions you'd like us tocover on this podcast, we
welcome your email at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of When
(37:18):
Grief Comes Home.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (37:22):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's centralValley.
Since 2012, we provide freepeer support for children, teens
, young adults and theirfamilies grieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(37:44):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(38:06):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info at
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.