December 3, 2024 • 54 mins
Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief.
This episode explores how to be present to the emotions of grief and allow our community to support us. As we mourn during the early days, we create space for emotional processing and expression. We discuss how to accept help and the natural tendency to push grief away, emphasizing that it’s never too late to seek healing through personal rituals or community ceremonies.
Parents will learn ways to help their children express overwhelming emotions and discover how they can be pillars of stability as they reflect and mirror their grief processes. This episode is a compassionate guide toward finding long-term support, balancing personal and family needs, and ensuring that mourning can open you to deeper connections and emotional resilience.
Please subscribe to the When Grief Comes Home podcast and leave us a review. The more stars, reviews, and downloads the show receives, the more parents and families in grief can find support.
Pre-order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L
For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a podcast
dedicated to parents livingthrough loss while supporting
their child.
Let's meet the team.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Jessica's House.
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague,program director for Jessica's
House and a licensed marriageand family therapist.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of when Grief
Comes Home.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Now, through this podcast, they'll share grief
resources and coping skills,heartfelt stories and insights
to support parents as they raisechildren who are grieving
Together.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
you'll find strength as we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Hello everyone, it's Brad fromJessica's House, and today we're
talking about allowing yourselfto express the full range of
emotions that come when you'regrieving, and even opening up to
your sorrow.
Over the years here atJessica's House, families have
taught us that they don't havethe words sometimes, or even a
way to express what they'refeeling, and a lot of times
(01:03):
they're surprised by their ownreactions to their grief.
Aaron, you and I over the yearshave talked about some of those
own feelings in your own lifeof not feeling able to explain
what's going on inside.
I know when Tyler died and yourmom died a number of months
after that, that you had adifferent feeling inside of you.
When your mom passed away andyour mom died from suicide and
(01:26):
brought up just some otheremotions and feelings that were
hard to process, you weresurprised by some of your
reactions, I believe.
Would you mind sharing a bitabout that season?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, that was such a difficult season and I don't
think I ever imagined just thefragility that I would feel, I
think the complexity of having avery traumatic loss and then
followed by another traumaticloss of a suicide, and you know,
after that happened, I thinkjust it really did deepen that
(02:00):
vulnerable feeling that I had ofjust almost like I didn't even
really know how to feel.
And I feel like, when I lookback on that, it was just like
the color, like it just kind ofleft the world in a lot of ways,
it was just I kind of, when Ilook back on that, it was just
like kind of gray and, yeah, Ifelt so untethered.
(02:24):
I felt like there was anidentity that I didn't know,
like who I was, like it wasn't a, didn't feel like a daughter,
you know, and a wife, and sothere was just so much um that I
was processing, along with, ofcourse, having my sister with me
who was 15 at the time, andthen my younger kids.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yeah, she moved in after your mom died.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
She moved in after my mom died, and I guess what I
knew at that time was that Ijust felt like I was being kind
of plunged into this very darkplace, and what I didn't know is
that's where the healing wouldbegin.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
So I hear you say the world is gray around you.
You're kind of a bobber in thewater just bouncing with no
anchor and as the winds blow orthe tides leads, it's just kind
of where you're at.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
That's exactly kind of how I felt.
I felt this very strongfragility, like I was like this
little wisp that if you justlike touch me, I would just like
crumble to the ground.
And I didn't feel like before,where I had an anchor, and I had
like the strength in my body.
You know, I just felt so like Icould just fly, like like float
(03:41):
away or like you know it.
Just I felt like anything couldpush me over.
And so, yes, and I had to bethere.
You know, I just had to just bethere and feel it and be in the
darkness, let the world be grayand let the color come back
when it came back.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
It's so true.
When you just said a fewmoments ago about you're no
longer a wife, right, becauseyou go from wife to widow, and
those titles are a big deal,I've heard people over the years
speak of that.
Even I didn't.
I didn't think of the daughterpiece, though.
I mean you're still a daughterbecause you're dad, but still
there's that my mom has died.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, that mother bought the that mother, daughter
bond and, you know, living with, you know a mom who, from a
child, you know, really livedwith mental illness and just all
the effect of that.
But we also had something sospecial, you know she was such a
(04:40):
light in the world, her senseof humor and her compassion and
her empathy, our connection thatwe had and I missed that so
much and I think all of my life.
I was 27 when she died.
I just hoped that somehow therewould be a treatment or there
(05:03):
would be something that couldhave helped her along the way
and she just um, it didn'thappen.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
She would have gotten better.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
That somehow yeah.
Yeah, that she would havelearned to live um in in a way
that just was like more thrivingand something, and so that was
always my hope, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Your mom comes up here at Jessica's house from
time to time, because wheneverthere's a bug or a spider
anywhere here in the house.
You can't, we can't squish it,we have to.
We have to slide a piece ofpaper under really fast and then
carry it outside, and so, yeah,do you mind sharing a little
bit about that?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, sherry, you know, she was just so empathetic
.
You know, and you know her lifework.
She was an RN and she worked inthe NICU with babies the
sickest babies, you know, andshe was just so good at that.
But I think her gentleness, youknow, with these tiny babies and
I think about her, and how shenever wanted to kill anything,
(06:13):
even the spiders, yeah, and I,she would just scoop it up on a
little tissue and just let itfree outside.
And so it's really funny,colleen and I, you know, we've
been working on this book and wewent to lunch at our agent's
house and when we went to thebathroom there was a spider in
the sink.
And Colleen went to thebathroom first and she left a
spider for me.
That was nice of you, yes, andso she left the spider for me.
(06:33):
And so then I went to thebathroom and I saw the spider in
the sink and I just let it godown the drain.
And so I said did you see thespider in the sink?
She said, yeah, I left her foryou.
I said when I washed my handsit went down the drain.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
I said, sorry, mom, yes, yes, and that still happens
around Jessica's house.
So, erin, I'm glad you saidsome of those things about your
mom was being the NICU nurse,because we talk about this idea
of the golden hour and grief,and so you've talked about this
and you've taught Colleen and Ia lot about this.
(07:12):
Would you share with those thatare listening what you mean by
that golden hour?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, brad.
So something that I've noticedabout in my own life, and
especially after my mom died,was, like I said, like there's
no way around the darkness, likethe only cure for grief is to
grieve.
Yeah, right, it's the only wayto.
The other side is like through,and you have to kind of be
(07:38):
there.
I think about gerald sit, whowrote a book and said he wanted
to stay in the light, but theonly way to find the light was
to go east into the darkness,and I think that that's the
golden hour, that's theopportunity.
(08:00):
The research really shows usthat babies thrive when they
have that hour with their momand dad, that connection, skin
to skin bonding, all thatattachment.
It's so important and you to bethere, you know, to be in that
(08:20):
golden hour and to have thattime where everyone does better
later in life.
Right, that's kind of what wethink about with grief, because
in grief you have a time and Ithink about it as like a bruise,
where the blood rushes in.
(08:40):
You have a time where, when youhave a wound, everybody comes
around you, you know, and whathappens is, if you're not
sitting and being there andallowing that process to happen,
where everything has changedand you're there and you're
going into a place of despairand sadness and grief and
(09:04):
mourning.
People come around you, butsometimes it's easier to kind of
like try to buck up a littlebit and like try to push those
feelings away, to chase afterthe sun, to move forward, to get
busy, to start traveling, toreally like kind of give out a
(09:28):
vibe that says I'm okay, like Idon't need, um like this help
that people are wanting to give.
It's hard to take help, it'shard to even be such in such a
vulnerable place that you needthat support.
But when we push it away,people move on and so like we
(09:48):
can never like quite get backthere again and so to allow
yourself to be there, it's likeyour golden hour in grief, where
you have this place, where it'sa natural place to be, where
people naturally want to comearound you.
You naturally because grief hasa movement downward, so you're
naturally having this movementand if you're trying to keep you
(10:10):
know you try to keep swimmingup to the surface you're pushing
away this natural reaction togrief that we all have.
It's universal that we havethis inside of us when someone
dies.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
And it's so natural and you and I have talked about
this before that because it'sfresh to those people that are
around you.
It's the only time they come toyou to help soothe, serve, be
with and walk with you in that,but it's almost like people push
that away.
Yeah, and that's the otherreason we talk about the need
for funerals, the other reasonwe talk about the need for
(10:47):
funerals, and it gives thatchance for the community to come
together to support, to learnfrom one another, to laugh with
one another, to cry with oneanother and it's such a need in
those first few days.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And to acknowledge all that has changed when
someone and you know we'respeaking to parents today that
have lost a child or a spouse orpartner, and when you have that
, the gravity of that loss, tohave that in your everyday life
where someone just drops out ofyour everyday life and that
(11:18):
person that you were just with.
You know we don't realize howmuch we regulate each other's
emotions every day and how youjust you're just having rhythms
every day with you know, justliving with someone and when
they're no longer there, theimpact that it has on us, and so
, yeah, to notice that back tothe golden hour.
(11:46):
You know, as we know, there areso many circumstances after a
baby's born that you know youmay not have had that attachment
time, your baby may have beensick, it could have been an
adoption.
There are so many reasons why aperson might have that, not have
that golden hour, but I thinkone thing that we know is
whether it's in grief or whetherit's after a birth, that golden
hour, it's never too late tovisit that.
(12:08):
And, colleen, you and I havewritten about that and we've
talked about it.
And so what would you say to alistener today who, maybe, for
whatever circumstance, maybeafter the person died, they had
a lot of child careresponsibilities, maybe they had
to go right back to work.
There are so many reasons whythey didn't get to just sit in
(12:29):
that place.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
What can you say to them today Just to echo what you
said, erin, is that it's nevertoo late.
And so, as we continue thisconversation, everything we say
still applies to you it's nevertoo late to attune yourself to
what you're needing right now,in this moment, and you can
start here right now.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, so when you're thinking about a parent who
didn't have a chance, if theyneed to revisit, just to go back
and maybe like even startingwith a ceremony, like what, what
can be done if they may havenot spent that time really
(13:13):
sitting, they just hadn't havean opportunity to be with their
grief after the person diedmaybe consider where you could
feel the closest to it, to thatgrief site or scattering site,
(13:49):
and putting yourself back inthat place in time, you could
write them something, you couldtalk out loud, but really
putting yourself in theproximity of a spot that will
invite you to your grief.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
And I think the first step could then be to just
attune to your body what's yourbody telling you?
How are you feeling inside?
Where do you feel tension?
What is your head saying?
What is your heart saying?
It's a good place to start,because our bodies never lie.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, our bodies never lie.
Yeah, our bodies never lie.
And I know sometimes ourfamilies will teach us that it's
just they feel this likepressure in their body and it's
just like they have to getsomething out.
And you know, how do you do?
You think that you can attuneto that and not try to push it
down or distract yourself fromit.
(14:46):
How can that grief, that energythat's inside of you, what are
some ways you can attune andexpress that?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
One practice we've engaged in before is placing
your hands on the spot of yourbody where you feel that tension
or anxiousness, and justholding both of your hands right
there, and that energy in yourbody needs expression and so
(15:16):
thinking about how you can movethat feeling and that energy out
of your body.
How oftentimes through movement.
We've talked about just theswaying back and forth big
movements, if you need.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
So, Colleen, I hear you saying a lot of different
things in there that people needto hear, but some might be just
going.
Give me one or two things thatare practical that I could do
today.
And I think one of the thingswe talk here at the house about
is the difference between griefand mourning.
And, Erin, I'm going to ask youjust kind of the difference
(15:53):
between those two things.
They're interchangeable wordsin our culture but we're very
specific about the differencebetween those two things.
And what is the differencebetween grief and mourning as we
talk about it here at Jessica'shouse?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, we're just so fortunate that we were able to
learn from Dr Alan Woolfelt, whoreally explains this so well,
and grief being this internalexperience of our emotions, and
so it could be confusion, itcould be jealousy.
It could be confusion, it couldbe jealousy, it could be
sadness, it could be despair, itcould be explosive emotions and
(16:30):
anger, guilt yeah, remorseremorse, shame.
There are so many feelings thatwe can feel on the inside when
we're grieving, and thenmourning is really how we heal
and that's the expression of thegrief and that is you know, we
talk about so much the crying,like you know, and just knowing
(16:54):
that what's inside has to comeoutside.
That's such a process, right,just having tears, taking the
water in our bodies, like ifwe're like 70% water or whatever
, taking it on the outside.
It's really that.
It's a transformationalexperience to take what's inside
and place it outside and that'sreally one way that we heal.
(17:16):
And I know so many people willsay to us like, oh, I just felt
so much better after I cried, soyou're really taking that from
inside to outside.
You know that could be writing.
So many of our families saylike just writing helped me so
much.
It could be talking.
It could be some people justsay just taking a walk, being
(17:46):
able to do art, music, listeningto music, playing music.
There are so many ways that wetake what's inside and place it
outside and through expression.
But what's even better is whenyou have a witness to that and
when you can share that withsomeone.
You know we talk so much aboutthat.
We don't.
We don't ever like completelyrecover from grief.
It's really much more of anintegration.
(18:08):
It's like being in tune withthe feelings of grief and then
expressing those feelings, andthat is that rhythm that we
start talking about, and thenthat is how our grief is
integrated and it becomes reallyour sacred story, because you
just said a few minutes ago thatthat person is no longer there.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
So our rhythm can't be the same and it never will be
like it was before, and so wehave to integrate into a new
rhythm in life and differentways and rhythms of each day and
the mourning process and allthose.
But I wanted to come backbecause you just talked about
crying.
There's someone I know islistening and goes.
I still haven't cried.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
What's wrong with me?
You know, we hear that.
We've heard that.
Yeah, we do hear that.
And I think you know you grieveas you live.
If you are just naturally acrier, then you know the tears
may just come easier for you andit could be that someone just
(19:11):
isn't naturally a crier andthat's not how they will grieve
as much.
And people can feel kind ofashamed and I would say, like we
hear this from like middleschoolers and high schoolers
quite a bit, where they'll feelguilty that they're not crying
like other people in theirfamily.
And so, yeah, and some peopleare more streaky.
(19:34):
It's like it kind of builds upover time and then they can
finally cry and it's whenthey're alone they can't cry
when someone else is there.
Yeah, yeah, in the shower, inthe car.
It's like that's when they canfinally cry.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
The thing that I like about grief versus mourning is
the element of control that youcan have with mourning.
Grief is that automaticresponse, it just happens, it
shows up, it just shows up.
But mourning is something youget to decide how to do, yeah,
(20:09):
and something you get to learnfor yourself regarding what
feels best for you.
And my morning looks differentthan Aaron's and Brad's and I
like that a little bit.
There's a little bit of controlamongst a season of being out
of control.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, cause I've heard so many times in the adult
groups I lead, that theemotional burst of tears or
sadness.
I walked through the store andI saw their favorite ice cream
in the store or their cologne ortheir perfume, and it was just
instant.
One mom said years ago that shedrove by a billboard that was
(20:52):
for her son's employer and justboom, on the highway she's
instantly crying Right, we don't, we don't expect those things,
but the morning we can controlin a sense or plan.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, it's something that we're learning.
It's a new version of ourself,this world without our person in
it, and so we're discovering anew part of ourself.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Along the way.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
It's a piece of that transformation.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, and sometimes I would say that, you know, we
can have control, and othertimes there's an overwhelming
kind of feeling and it's just wejust express it in the moment
and it could be just that.
You know, just we weren't evenexpecting to feel like a hot
feeling of jealousy or anger andwe're like and we're just mad
(21:39):
and it's just comes out likesuper fast and we didn't really
feel like we had the choice tolike control it or, like you
know, measure it in any way, butit's just like, it's just there
and we're there in that kind ofexperience of it as well.
And so I like what you're saying, just as like it.
(21:59):
Just like sometimes it's likewe get to choose to write and
like sometimes, as we choose todo that, that's when those kind
of emotions get to flow and it'skind of our natural way of
mourning.
Those kind of emotions get toflow and it's kind of our
natural way of mourning.
And then other times it mightbe these very automatic
responses that come out of usand we're not even expecting
that.
(22:20):
We just or like a memory orsomething happened, and we may
even be our expression might belaughter, yeah, because
something hit us.
That was really just kind offunny.
It might be a memory orsomething about the grief
process that we weren'texpecting.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
So, Erin, would you say that in time those automatic
responses that come up canbecome a little less scary,
because you can say oh, thereyou are.
There's that feeling ofjealousy.
There it is.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, I think it does soften over time and some of
what might come up that is verystrong and like that hot, those
hot emotions that come out ofyou that you weren't expecting,
as you continue to express themover and over and you're not
letting that build up happen.
I think it softens and that'skind of that feeling.
(23:13):
That kind of experience thatwe're talking about with the
integration is that we'reintegrating, we're expressing it
in the moment, we'reintegrating it, we're finding
ways to express.
Like you said, it's like we'replanning a session, we're going
to sit down with the music thathelps us to express and or
whatever that might be.
(23:34):
Then we can just continue thatrhythm.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
I've heard adults say in group and this whole idea of
life goes on and they areworking through their grief.
And it is a process that thoseFacebook memories that pop up
out of the blue bring smiles andnot tears.
And they're, it's just adifferent.
They're never coming back andwe acknowledge that and it'll
(24:01):
never be the same and weunderstand that.
But it goes from that thatoutburst of anger, that eruption
of anger, an instant flood oftears, to a soft smile or, you
know, maybe with a couple tearsattached.
But yeah, there's definitely adifference as they work through
it and process through grief.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, just how it softens over time.
So you know we've heard fromparents where they're surprised
and really taken off guard bysome of the memories that will
pop up on their phone, and howhard that is.
We don't like the phrase.
Like time heals all wounds oranything like that.
But I do think that thosereactions do soften over time.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, I can think of one gentleman that
volunteers here at Jessica'shouse and his son died nearly 20
years ago and he just said it'sdifferent, it's not as heavy as
it was but, it's still there.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You're still carrying it.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
You're still carrying it, but it's just different
yeah, yeah, and not to say heever assumes it's going to go
away.
That's never been a statementfrom him.
But it's different and it's umI don't even want to say the
word manageable, because hischild is never coming back.
But yeah, it's different.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I think about him and how he facilitates our families
who've lost a child and theycome in and maybe the loss
happened just a couple of monthsago and he really holds that
hope.
Yeah, that it is different, ithas changed.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
And he's changed.
It has changed and he's changed.
It's changed him Absolutely.
Yeah, he's changed.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Right, but for the other parents to look to him and
I think about him right now andhow he's traveling with his
wife and they're doing somereally fun kinds of activities
in retirement and they foundsome joy, but they miss their
son.
So much, absolutely they wishthat he was here, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Colleen and Aaron.
Thank you, but right now we'regoing to turn the corner and
head into our break.
But in segment two we're goingto also explore the idea of
helping your child explore andopen up to their sorrow.
As we go to break, I want tointroduce you to Gary Shriver,
our producer and engineer that'sbehind the scenes and he's
going to read a quote that willtransition us into our segment
(26:23):
two.
Thank you, brad.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
It's an honor to be here Now.
Our quote today comes to usfrom speaker, grief counselor
and author of several books ongrief care, Dr Alan Woolfelt.
His quote is titled you mustsay hello before you say goodbye
.
Love inevitably leads to grief.
You see, love and grief are twosides of the same precious coin
(26:47):
.
One does not and cannot existwithout the other.
They are the yin and the yangof our lives and from the moment
we're born, we say hello tolove in our lives by seeking it
out, by acknowledging it when itunfolds, by welcoming it and by
nurturing it.
So it will continue.
We must also say hello to lossand grief in our lives.
(27:10):
And to be sure, we don't seekit out, but when it unfolds we
must acknowledge it.
I would even say we mustwelcome our grief.
I mean, after all, the hurt wefeel is the consequence of the
love that we were privileged toexperience.
Yes, we must simultaneouslywork at and surrender to the
grief journey.
This is in itself a paradox.
(27:32):
As the griever comes to knowthis paradox, he can very slowly
discover the soothing of hissoul.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Gary, thank you for that quote and welcome to the
podcast.
Hey, we're going to shift gearsinto segment two and talk a
little bit about helping yourkids open up to their sorrow.
Colleen, do you want to share alittle bit about how we might
be able to model that for ourown kiddos in our homes?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I'd love to Brad, and to start it, I want to go back
a little bit and invite ourlistener to take a pause and
think about how was griefmodeled for you growing up?
What was that culture ofmourning in the house you were
raised in?
Because that was your firstteacher and we have a tendency
(28:19):
to lean on that in the way wenavigate life, the way we parent
our kids, and that the same istrue as how we're going to mourn
and what we're going to modelfor our kids.
Was there an open invitation togrieve in your home, in your
family of origin, or did youjust need to move on after the
(28:40):
funeral?
Was it not spoken of again?
After you've thought about it?
Now you get to decide how youwant to model mourning for your
kids.
There's choice in that for youand you can do different or you
can bring in parts of it thatyou liked that were helpful to
you, but you get to decide,moving forward, what that
(29:02):
culture looks like for yourfamily.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Yeah, there's choice even in when, like is it
appropriate and how soon?
Right.
And there's the risk avoidancepiece that we don't want to feel
, some of those feelings Like ifI don't feel them, you know,
then they don't exist, but theyare still there.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, and even just all the well-intentioned advice
or opinions that you receivefrom family or friends about
what you should or should not bedoing for your kids, or how you
should or should not be actingfor your kids, or how you should
or should not be acting aroundyour kids.
This is really your choice,though, in what feels the most
authentic and genuine, and, aswe've been saying, it's to lean
(29:43):
into that grief.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Yeah, and I.
I just want to recognize that.
You said the advice thatthere's.
You said the advice that you'regoing to be given bad advice
and shallow comments and thingsthat do not resonate or do not
help.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, I think, when families come here to Jessica's
house and you know, one of thevery first times we meet with
them, we ask them, like just byshow of hands, like how many of
you are getting a lot of advice,and so many of them are raising
their hands and it can becomeso exhausting, you know, and
(30:21):
some of the avoidance thatColleen mentioned, where people
say just stay busy, you know,and just some of those backup
messages that they might receive, as you know, and they're in a
better place, and some of thosepieces that, because there's so
much discomfort and so much ofthe advice that's given is
(30:45):
because of the person's owndiscomfort of actually sitting
in their sorrow and opening totheir sorrow.
And so when you are having, Iguess, really, and when you're
present to your grief reaction,what's so amazing about that is
that you know what you need.
(31:05):
So it's so rare for somebodyelse to know what you need.
And so even if, like, like I'llspeak for myself, having the
loss of a child and a mom when Iwas young, a husband when my
children were young, I have noidea how someone else's mourning
or what they need.
(31:25):
Only they know, becauseeverything is nuanced in grief,
like the circumstancessurrounding the death, the
support they have, therelationship they had with that
person.
It's also unique to eachindividual, even inside of a
family, and so the advice reallycan't be received because it
(31:48):
can't apply, you know.
And so it's so nice for ourfamilies to know that they are
in a room with other families,but they'll never be given
advice.
It's just all the listening andall the presence and all the
witnessing and just the beingwilling to sit in silence and
(32:08):
not fill it up.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
The parents that are listening right now.
They know their kid the bestand it's so fascinating that
people that don't know all thereality of that family love to
give advice.
But for parents to just trusttheir gut and model what their
kiddos need.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And wouldn't you guys say that so much of the time
that advice?
It comes from a reallywell-meaning place, because they
just don't want to see you inpain, and so the advice they're
giving you is an attempt to makeyou better or to help you heal
quickly, and what we're tryingto say here is that that
(32:46):
importance of the darkness needsto come before the light and
that the pain comes beforecelebration.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
And also like what you were saying, brad, is that
the parents who are listeningright now.
You know your child better thananyone else and this is a time
where your attunement reallymakes a difference.
You know if their behavior'soff, if you know when their
(33:17):
anxiety, when you're noticingsomething that they may be
developing new fears, and youalso are acquainted with what
helps them to feel better.
And that's why just thatattunement is so important,
because I, you know, we alwayshear how that mother or dad's
(33:37):
instinct can, even with thedoctor, when they're like, no, I
think there's something else.
And so much of the time thedoctor will say, hey, I listen
to parents because they reallyknow their child's body and
what's normal and what's not, sothat attunement for your child
when they're grieving reallymakes a difference.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
And there's no greater way to pick up on that
than being present with yourkiddos in the midst of the grief
.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, I think we can never discount what physical
presence can do for a child tobe there with them and to notice
and we talk a lot about evenjust touching in, even if it's
just three times a day, thoselittle touch-ins.
It could be a morning actuallyphysically touching, you know,
(34:29):
waking them up with like alittle just back rub or a little
scratch or whatever that mightbe, and so, and then touching in
, you know, at dinnertime and atbedtime and really listening to
them, being able to askopen-ended questions and really
(34:51):
just physically being there, itreally makes a difference
because you are really acontainer for your child and the
fact of your, as you aregrieving and you're mourning and
you're attuning to comealongside that and put your arms
around them and and be therefor them to help them as they
(35:25):
may feel emotions that feel outof control.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
And I'm glad you said the different times of day,
because there's some that arelistening and thinking I've got
work, so there's a chunk of theday they got school, kiddos are
out right, but there's there'sthose times in the morning and
maybe afternoon or evening, andthen the bedtime.
That are all parts of our dayand times in which we can
connect.
Colleen, I was going to ask you.
Sometimes we as adults distractourselves from going through
(35:51):
the pain, but we also see thiswith kiddos too.
Right that they might jump intoa video game because it just
gives them a chance to check out, or sports, and not that those
are bad things, but how, how canparents help kiddos walk
through a bit of that?
Speaker 3 (36:09):
That's so true, Brad.
Our brains are wired to avoidpain.
You know we don't want to sitin that space, and so we can
naturally gravitate and grabthings that will numb us from
those feelings or distract us,switch our focus.
You might notice that inyourself.
(36:30):
With too much phone time, maybeovereating, kind of just
binging shows on Netflix is ajoke, but really those can
become activities for numbing ifit's in too much.
And you're modeling that foryour kids too.
And your kids are trying toavoid pain at the same time.
(36:53):
But what's interesting aboutthem is that they have a more
natural flow with their grief.
They kind of dive in and out ofit as they feel capable, and so
we talk about they absorb theirgrief and their loss in bits
and pieces, so they'll dip intothat space, do a little bit of
(37:16):
grief work and then pop on outand go back into normal life.
But then they go back into thatspace when they're ready again.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, I think what we see kids come in and ask
questions about the death andthen go out, go back and play,
and they do model that naturalkind of organic way of grieving
so much.
We kind of have to think alittle bit more as adults of
engaging with our grief and thenretreating back and they kind
of naturally will go in and outand in and out, and so I think
(37:48):
they're one of our best teachers, right To watch what they
naturally do.
And we kind of overthink itsometimes where we're noticing
like, oh, like I have beenreally distracting myself and
I'm not engaging with my griefas much.
But you know, it's okay to giveyour brain a break, right, it's
(38:08):
okay to.
I just think about in my ownlife, after Carter died, my son
Carter, my husband Brian and Iwould lay in bed at night and
there was a period of time wherewe would watch these little
five minute videos of a comedianthat we really enjoyed, because
we felt such despair and wewere so overwhelmed with our
(38:30):
grief that we just needed a tinybit before we plunged into the
darkness of the.
You know all night long that wejust needed something just to
give our brain a break and ithelped so much and he would just
have it on his phone and saylet's just watch a little
snippet of this before we go tosleep.
And you know what?
(38:51):
We needed that because we werereally in it and so sometimes we
all need, and so I thinkthere's this like overdoing it
and then it's like so we werepresently.
We've been talking about ourthe golden hour.
We want to be present to ourgrief and really allow it to be.
But if you're just noticingthat it's too much, you know,
(39:13):
and for a long time.
I have this like little headbandI wear that has a Bluetooth
time.
I have this like littleheadband I wear that has a
Bluetooth and I'm going to justsay it's been five years That'll
be five years next month forCarter's death and I still wear
that headband every night.
And I listened to like a littletravel podcast, because when I
wake up at night I have such ahard time in the nighttime to be
(39:39):
present, with the pain of it.
It's like I can grieve duringthe day and like be present in
to all the things and but Istill can't.
And sometimes I have a goal oflike maybe I won't listen to my
little travel podcast tonight,maybe I'll just, and I just I
can't, I can't do it, and solike as much as we can be
(40:02):
present to our pain.
We also need to know where ourlimits are, and it's okay
there's no shame in that.
It's okay to find somethingthat gets you through the night.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Like we can do that through the night like we can do
that, and sometimes we justneed to be there and and we'll
talk about doing those things inour morning process.
They're okay as long as they'renot hurting you or hurting
someone else, right, yeah, andso there are those things that
what makes you able to sleep orget through a day.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
It's just an anchor outside of my own mind that
gives my brain enough of a breakthat I wake up and I'm in Rome,
wherever I am, in this travelpodcast and I started thinking
about that and it's like, okay,I can just like listen to this
very like rhythmic voice and goback to sleep and you know, it's
(40:59):
a safe way to rest when I needit.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
And for you it's like sleep, right, and I'm thinking
there's kiddos that might haveoutbursts of physical behavior,
right that it's that grief andthat mourning is manifesting
itself through physicaloutbursts or disobedience.
There's a number of things wecould say that don't miss those
(41:28):
outbursts, sometimes as justgrief finding its way out, oh
yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Behavior is our best teacher with kids right, just
seeing.
You know what are we seeing andhow has grief changed their
safety and whatever it might betheir you know worries and they
may need to kind of push upagainst that.
(41:53):
I know Colleen and I havewritten in our book about just
healthy aggression and howimportant it is that they can
learn how to let that out oftheir body in a healthy way.
In Jessica's house we have avolcano room.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Yeah, and as you were talking, I didn't think of this
until you were talking, butthat behavior and I specifically
was speaking about outbursts,but there might be a kid that
was pretty active.
That's now pretty quiet, or?
Pretty, reserved or isolatingright, so don't miss that
message too.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Right yeah, and just for our listeners, we do go
quite a bit into some of likethe, where we call it like too
hot.
You know know where you are moreon that spectrum of like the
angry outburst but, then there'sthat other part where you're
really too cold and you'reseeing a child that was once
(42:48):
very highly engaging with andwith life and they're now just
in that place of hypo which wecall, like, hypo activation
instead of hyper activation.
And we talk a lot in the bookabout how do we get to our sweet
spot.
That's kind of more in thatmiddle and we give some really
specific ways that we can getthere.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Yeah, I'm going to throw a question out for the
both of you.
That wasn't in our notes, so beready.
But I I will often hear in mygroups with parents and adults
that the idea that the way Ikind of phrase it is there's all
these big emotions that arehard for us adults to face and
whether you're a 25-year-oldwith a kiddo, or 50, you know,
(43:31):
with grandkids, or 60 orwhatever that may be, it's hard
enough for us with these bigemotions, with grief.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
But take those same big emotions and feelings and
life's out of control sincesomeone died, but it's in that
little body Like how do you helpa kiddo process such big
feelings but yet young, youthful, you know that little body idea
you know that little body ideathis is where you come in as the
(44:03):
parent and you get to be acontainer for their feelings
that are just spilling over, andso making sure, first, that
you're in a good place toreceive those you're, you're not
in a hyper activation or hypoactivation state, you're in your
own little window of tolerance,your little sweet spot, and
then just coming down to theirlevel and just being there for
that, bringing that calmness tothe moment and allowing them to
(44:27):
have their feelings and,depending on their age, doing a
little commentating about whatyou're noticing.
You know, usually, once the bigfeelings are done, they're kind
of in a spot where they canactually hear it and receive the
message.
And so, wow, you looked reallymad right there.
What was going on, what didyour body feel like?
And so in that moment, you'reteaching them to start to
(44:50):
recognize what that feeling is,what does it feel like, and then
teaching them what to do withit.
Do you want to get some ice andgo throw it outside?
On the ground Makes a reallycool cracking sound.
Do you want to throw it againstthe fence?
What if we get some of those?
You know, buy those poolnoodles at the dollar store and
go thwack the side of the houseor the fence, because anger is
(45:12):
normal and as long as you're nothurting yourself or others or
breaking property, it's okay.
Hurting yourself or others orbreaking property, it's okay.
And then the same could be trueif they're in a hypo activated
state, where they're really low.
And so that's the perk of youdoing those little check-ins a
few times a day is it keeps youin touch with how they're doing,
what you're noticing changes intheir mood or behavior and just
(45:36):
being with them, being presenthey, let's go for a walk.
It's kind of the flip side ofthose behaviors that you're
noticing, kind of the reverse,could be helpful getting them
moving, getting some energy intotheir body.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I'm just thinking, Colleen, as you said, for the
parents listening that are sooverwhelmed with their own
emotions and you mentionedfinding out like finding, you
know, your sweet spot, andsometimes we just you know, we
talk about just you mentionedearlier, Colleen just like
putting your hand, and sometimesit's just pressing your hand
(46:13):
into your heart and just tellingyourself a message that you're
safe right now.
And sometimes it's just taking areally deep breath, sometimes a
forceful exhale, just all theway out, moving your body from
side to side, going outside fora second, so as you see your
child really having a really bigoutburst, being able to take a
(46:37):
moment and even being able toexpress that to your child like
mom or dad, like we need amoment and we're going to just
take a second to find calm inour own bodies so that we can be
a container.
And I think for the parents outthere that just think, like I'm
, this is so much for me, it'sso hard to even come and be a
(46:58):
container.
These are just little thingsthat we can do and sometimes we
need help with that, we needsupport.
We might need someone to stopby and just help us and maybe we
just can't find that sweet spotin that moment, and maybe a
neighbor or friend can help usas well.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
Well, Colleen, I've heard the word container.
Can you describe what you meanby that, Because Aaron used it
too and we talk about it here.
But what do you mean by thatfor those that are listening?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
They're like container.
What do you speak of?
First, I want to share ananalogy I heard once that made a
lot of sense to me.
If you imagine yourself as aglass and imagine, you know,
with how you're doing right now,with all the things going on in
your life, that adds fullnessto your glass.
And if you're already prettyfull and something else gets
(47:50):
dumped in, it's just going tooverflow.
You're kind of at max capacity.
But if you're in a good spot andyour glass is a little bit more
empty, you can absorb more thanyou can intake more.
And so if your glass is alittle emptier and your kiddos
is at max capacity andoverflowing, you can absorb some
(48:13):
of that energy.
You're in a spot where you cansit with them and just be
present to their.
Whether it's a big outburst orit's, you know, something
looking different.
That's what that container is,that what you're conveying to
them is that your big feelingsaren't scaring me.
I can take it.
And if a kid knows that you cantake it, then it gives them a
(48:37):
little bit of confidence thatthey can too and that they're
not holding it alone.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
And that there's space to be present with them
and to hear it, to hear thosebig words and those big emotions
, that that it doesn't overflowyou, like you're saying that
those kids can kind of almostpass those on to you and that
you're going to sit and thengive them time and space to pass
those over, in a sense.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, and maybe the child in a way can think you
know what, if they don't scareyou, then maybe they won't scare
me Because, again, whetherthey're big feelings or small
feelings, feelings are there.
You know it's, it's a normalpart of being a human and so
it's about what we do with them.
I think it's also important tonote that supporting your child
(49:23):
doesn't always mean that youhave to be talking about the
grief and talking about thesadness or the feelings or the
person who died, just being withthem and playing or having fun,
having those moments that feela little bit more like that old
normal.
That is also supporting yourchild.
(49:44):
Erin has shared a great analogywith me with the teens and the
young adults in her life.
They didn't need her to bethere all the time talking about
the person or engaging, butthey needed you there as a
potted plant so to speak, just apotted plant in the corner so
that when they did need you, youwere there.
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Yeah, you weren't far .
Speaker 3 (50:08):
You weren't far away and that is the kind of stance
you took in your home later on,and so just want to encourage.
It doesn't always have to looklike grief work, it's just being
with.
Speaker 4 (50:19):
Just being in the proximity of your kids.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yeah, you know, even just you can be sitting on the
couch together, but think aboutthat difference when you're
actually right next to eachother and your feet are touching
.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
There's a difference there.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
And that's what we need, as parents, too, is for
someone to walk with us in ourgrief, right yeah, and it's a
way for us to to give some ofthose emotions and feelings that
we have.
And, aaron, I know in the firstsegment today you took we and
we mentioned more of this, butthat's what we need those people
around us when it's fresh andwhen it's just happened, to not
(50:55):
buck up and try and do all thethings or get busy, you know but
, we need those people to wherewe can lean on and rely on in
those first days, weeks andmonths.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
We need them, we need support now and always, you
know, and just knowing that wehave a vulnerability that we
didn't have before, justeverything has changed.
And so finding those peoplesome you know, I think about,
you know what you just said andI think about the people that
are really good in like kind ofthose like critical times, and
(51:28):
then you have, like your lifers,that are with you long-term,
and so find your people atdifferent stages or times
periods of your grief, and youknow, just know that you'll need
support as long as, as long asthere's time, right that you
(51:48):
have on this earth?
Yeah, because it it's just, it'sneeded, and everything has
changed, and you never imaginedyour life would be like this.
Speaker 4 (51:58):
And the people that give you those buck up messages.
You're not the people that sitin it with us.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
And sometimes they don't know.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
They don't.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
They don't know.
But find those people that willlisten.
And I always like the quotefrom Parker Palmer that just
says you know, being listened tois the closest form of feeling
loved.
And just like we need that lovein our life, we need that extra
love in our life right now,just as we heal, yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Aaron and Colleen.
Thank you for this today.
Sure, appreciate our timetogether and, for those of you
listening, be sure to get moreresources at jessicashouseorg,
and if you have any ideas fortopics or if you have questions,
feel free to reach out to us byemail at info at
jessicashouseorg.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of when
Grief Comes Home, where we'll betalking about the circumstances
(52:55):
of the death and how they mayimpact your grieving process.
Until then, we wish you well.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouseorg to download ourfree resources and be sure to
(53:24):
follow Jessica's House on socialmedia, and if you have any
questions or topics you'd likefor us to explore in future
episodes, just send us an emailto jessicashouseorg.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time, for
when Grief Comes Home.
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a podcast
dedicated to parents livingthrough loss while supporting
their child.
Let's meet the team.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Jessica's House.
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague,program director for Jessica's
House and a licensed marriageand family therapist.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of when Grief
Comes Home.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Now, through this podcast, they'll share grief
resources and coping skills,heartfelt stories and insights
to support parents as they raisechildren who are grieving
Together.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
you'll find strength as we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Hello everyone, it's Brad fromJessica's House, and today we're
talking about allowing yourselfto express the full range of
emotions that come when you'regrieving, and even opening up to
your sorrow.
Over the years here atJessica's House, families have
taught us that they don't havethe words sometimes, or even a
way to express what they'refeeling, and a lot of times
(01:03):
they're surprised by their ownreactions to their grief.
Aaron, you and I over the yearshave talked about some of those
own feelings in your own lifeof not feeling able to explain
what's going on inside.
I know when Tyler died and yourmom died a number of months
after that, that you had adifferent feeling inside of you.
When your mom passed away andyour mom died from suicide and
(01:26):
brought up just some otheremotions and feelings that were
hard to process, you weresurprised by some of your
reactions, I believe.
Would you mind sharing a bitabout that season?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, that was such a difficult season and I don't
think I ever imagined just thefragility that I would feel, I
think the complexity of having avery traumatic loss and then
followed by another traumaticloss of a suicide, and you know,
after that happened, I thinkjust it really did deepen that
(02:00):
vulnerable feeling that I had ofjust almost like I didn't even
really know how to feel.
And I feel like, when I lookback on that, it was just like
the color, like it just kind ofleft the world in a lot of ways,
it was just I kind of, when Ilook back on that, it was just
like kind of gray and, yeah, Ifelt so untethered.
(02:24):
I felt like there was anidentity that I didn't know,
like who I was, like it wasn't a, didn't feel like a daughter,
you know, and a wife, and sothere was just so much um that I
was processing, along with, ofcourse, having my sister with me
who was 15 at the time, andthen my younger kids.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yeah, she moved in after your mom died.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
She moved in after my mom died, and I guess what I
knew at that time was that Ijust felt like I was being kind
of plunged into this very darkplace, and what I didn't know is
that's where the healing wouldbegin.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
So I hear you say the world is gray around you.
You're kind of a bobber in thewater just bouncing with no
anchor and as the winds blow orthe tides leads, it's just kind
of where you're at.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
That's exactly kind of how I felt.
I felt this very strongfragility, like I was like this
little wisp that if you justlike touch me, I would just like
crumble to the ground.
And I didn't feel like before,where I had an anchor, and I had
like the strength in my body.
You know, I just felt so like Icould just fly, like like float
(03:41):
away or like you know it.
Just I felt like anything couldpush me over.
And so, yes, and I had to bethere.
You know, I just had to just bethere and feel it and be in the
darkness, let the world be grayand let the color come back
when it came back.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
It's so true.
When you just said a fewmoments ago about you're no
longer a wife, right, becauseyou go from wife to widow, and
those titles are a big deal,I've heard people over the years
speak of that.
Even I didn't.
I didn't think of the daughterpiece, though.
I mean you're still a daughterbecause you're dad, but still
there's that my mom has died.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, that mother bought the that mother, daughter
bond and, you know, living with, you know a mom who, from a
child, you know, really livedwith mental illness and just all
the effect of that.
But we also had something sospecial, you know she was such a
(04:40):
light in the world, her senseof humor and her compassion and
her empathy, our connection thatwe had and I missed that so
much and I think all of my life.
I was 27 when she died.
I just hoped that somehow therewould be a treatment or there
(05:03):
would be something that couldhave helped her along the way
and she just um, it didn'thappen.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
She would have gotten better.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
That somehow yeah.
Yeah, that she would havelearned to live um in in a way
that just was like more thrivingand something, and so that was
always my hope, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Your mom comes up here at Jessica's house from
time to time, because wheneverthere's a bug or a spider
anywhere here in the house.
You can't, we can't squish it,we have to.
We have to slide a piece ofpaper under really fast and then
carry it outside, and so, yeah,do you mind sharing a little
bit about that?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, sherry, you know, she was just so empathetic
.
You know, and you know her lifework.
She was an RN and she worked inthe NICU with babies the
sickest babies, you know, andshe was just so good at that.
But I think her gentleness, youknow, with these tiny babies and
I think about her, and how shenever wanted to kill anything,
(06:13):
even the spiders, yeah, and I,she would just scoop it up on a
little tissue and just let itfree outside.
And so it's really funny,colleen and I, you know, we've
been working on this book and wewent to lunch at our agent's
house and when we went to thebathroom there was a spider in
the sink.
And Colleen went to thebathroom first and she left a
spider for me.
That was nice of you, yes, andso she left the spider for me.
(06:33):
And so then I went to thebathroom and I saw the spider in
the sink and I just let it godown the drain.
And so I said did you see thespider in the sink?
She said, yeah, I left her foryou.
I said when I washed my handsit went down the drain.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
I said, sorry, mom, yes, yes, and that still happens
around Jessica's house.
So, erin, I'm glad you saidsome of those things about your
mom was being the NICU nurse,because we talk about this idea
of the golden hour and grief,and so you've talked about this
and you've taught Colleen and Ia lot about this.
(07:12):
Would you share with those thatare listening what you mean by
that golden hour?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, brad.
So something that I've noticedabout in my own life, and
especially after my mom died,was, like I said, like there's
no way around the darkness, likethe only cure for grief is to
grieve.
Yeah, right, it's the only wayto.
The other side is like through,and you have to kind of be
(07:38):
there.
I think about gerald sit, whowrote a book and said he wanted
to stay in the light, but theonly way to find the light was
to go east into the darkness,and I think that that's the
golden hour, that's theopportunity.
(08:00):
The research really shows usthat babies thrive when they
have that hour with their momand dad, that connection, skin
to skin bonding, all thatattachment.
It's so important and you to bethere, you know, to be in that
(08:20):
golden hour and to have thattime where everyone does better
later in life.
Right, that's kind of what wethink about with grief, because
in grief you have a time and Ithink about it as like a bruise,
where the blood rushes in.
(08:40):
You have a time where, when youhave a wound, everybody comes
around you, you know, and whathappens is, if you're not
sitting and being there andallowing that process to happen,
where everything has changedand you're there and you're
going into a place of despairand sadness and grief and
(09:04):
mourning.
People come around you, butsometimes it's easier to kind of
like try to buck up a littlebit and like try to push those
feelings away, to chase afterthe sun, to move forward, to get
busy, to start traveling, toreally like kind of give out a
(09:28):
vibe that says I'm okay, like Idon't need, um like this help
that people are wanting to give.
It's hard to take help, it'shard to even be such in such a
vulnerable place that you needthat support.
But when we push it away,people move on and so like we
(09:48):
can never like quite get backthere again and so to allow
yourself to be there, it's likeyour golden hour in grief, where
you have this place, where it'sa natural place to be, where
people naturally want to comearound you.
You naturally because grief hasa movement downward, so you're
naturally having this movementand if you're trying to keep you
(10:10):
know you try to keep swimmingup to the surface you're pushing
away this natural reaction togrief that we all have.
It's universal that we havethis inside of us when someone
dies.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
And it's so natural and you and I have talked about
this before that because it'sfresh to those people that are
around you.
It's the only time they come toyou to help soothe, serve, be
with and walk with you in that,but it's almost like people push
that away.
Yeah, and that's the otherreason we talk about the need
for funerals, the other reasonwe talk about the need for
(10:47):
funerals, and it gives thatchance for the community to come
together to support, to learnfrom one another, to laugh with
one another, to cry with oneanother and it's such a need in
those first few days.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And to acknowledge all that has changed when
someone and you know we'respeaking to parents today that
have lost a child or a spouse orpartner, and when you have that
, the gravity of that loss, tohave that in your everyday life
where someone just drops out ofyour everyday life and that
(11:18):
person that you were just with.
You know we don't realize howmuch we regulate each other's
emotions every day and how youjust you're just having rhythms
every day with you know, justliving with someone and when
they're no longer there, theimpact that it has on us, and so
, yeah, to notice that back tothe golden hour.
(11:46):
You know, as we know, there areso many circumstances after a
baby's born that you know youmay not have had that attachment
time, your baby may have beensick, it could have been an
adoption.
There are so many reasons why aperson might have that, not have
that golden hour, but I thinkone thing that we know is
whether it's in grief or whetherit's after a birth, that golden
hour, it's never too late tovisit that.
(12:08):
And, colleen, you and I havewritten about that and we've
talked about it.
And so what would you say to alistener today who, maybe, for
whatever circumstance, maybeafter the person died, they had
a lot of child careresponsibilities, maybe they had
to go right back to work.
There are so many reasons whythey didn't get to just sit in
(12:29):
that place.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
What can you say to them today Just to echo what you
said, erin, is that it's nevertoo late.
And so, as we continue thisconversation, everything we say
still applies to you it's nevertoo late to attune yourself to
what you're needing right now,in this moment, and you can
start here right now.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, so when you're thinking about a parent who
didn't have a chance, if theyneed to revisit, just to go back
and maybe like even startingwith a ceremony, like what, what
can be done if they may havenot spent that time really
(13:13):
sitting, they just hadn't havean opportunity to be with their
grief after the person diedmaybe consider where you could
feel the closest to it, to thatgrief site or scattering site,
(13:49):
and putting yourself back inthat place in time, you could
write them something, you couldtalk out loud, but really
putting yourself in theproximity of a spot that will
invite you to your grief.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
And I think the first step could then be to just
attune to your body what's yourbody telling you?
How are you feeling inside?
Where do you feel tension?
What is your head saying?
What is your heart saying?
It's a good place to start,because our bodies never lie.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, our bodies never lie.
Yeah, our bodies never lie.
And I know sometimes ourfamilies will teach us that it's
just they feel this likepressure in their body and it's
just like they have to getsomething out.
And you know, how do you do?
You think that you can attuneto that and not try to push it
down or distract yourself fromit.
(14:46):
How can that grief, that energythat's inside of you, what are
some ways you can attune andexpress that?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
One practice we've engaged in before is placing
your hands on the spot of yourbody where you feel that tension
or anxiousness, and justholding both of your hands right
there, and that energy in yourbody needs expression and so
(15:16):
thinking about how you can movethat feeling and that energy out
of your body.
How oftentimes through movement.
We've talked about just theswaying back and forth big
movements, if you need.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
So, Colleen, I hear you saying a lot of different
things in there that people needto hear, but some might be just
going.
Give me one or two things thatare practical that I could do
today.
And I think one of the thingswe talk here at the house about
is the difference between griefand mourning.
And, Erin, I'm going to ask youjust kind of the difference
(15:53):
between those two things.
They're interchangeable wordsin our culture but we're very
specific about the differencebetween those two things.
And what is the differencebetween grief and mourning as we
talk about it here at Jessica'shouse?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, we're just so fortunate that we were able to
learn from Dr Alan Woolfelt, whoreally explains this so well,
and grief being this internalexperience of our emotions, and
so it could be confusion, itcould be jealousy.
It could be confusion, it couldbe jealousy, it could be
sadness, it could be despair, itcould be explosive emotions and
(16:30):
anger, guilt yeah, remorseremorse, shame.
There are so many feelings thatwe can feel on the inside when
we're grieving, and thenmourning is really how we heal
and that's the expression of thegrief and that is you know, we
talk about so much the crying,like you know, and just knowing
(16:54):
that what's inside has to comeoutside.
That's such a process, right,just having tears, taking the
water in our bodies, like ifwe're like 70% water or whatever
, taking it on the outside.
It's really that.
It's a transformationalexperience to take what's inside
and place it outside and that'sreally one way that we heal.
(17:16):
And I know so many people willsay to us like, oh, I just felt
so much better after I cried, soyou're really taking that from
inside to outside.
You know that could be writing.
So many of our families saylike just writing helped me so
much.
It could be talking.
It could be some people justsay just taking a walk, being
(17:46):
able to do art, music, listeningto music, playing music.
There are so many ways that wetake what's inside and place it
outside and through expression.
But what's even better is whenyou have a witness to that and
when you can share that withsomeone.
You know we talk so much aboutthat.
We don't.
We don't ever like completelyrecover from grief.
It's really much more of anintegration.
(18:08):
It's like being in tune withthe feelings of grief and then
expressing those feelings, andthat is that rhythm that we
start talking about, and thenthat is how our grief is
integrated and it becomes reallyour sacred story, because you
just said a few minutes ago thatthat person is no longer there.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
So our rhythm can't be the same and it never will be
like it was before, and so wehave to integrate into a new
rhythm in life and differentways and rhythms of each day and
the mourning process and allthose.
But I wanted to come backbecause you just talked about
crying.
There's someone I know islistening and goes.
I still haven't cried.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
What's wrong with me?
You know, we hear that.
We've heard that.
Yeah, we do hear that.
And I think you know you grieveas you live.
If you are just naturally acrier, then you know the tears
may just come easier for you andit could be that someone just
(19:11):
isn't naturally a crier andthat's not how they will grieve
as much.
And people can feel kind ofashamed and I would say, like we
hear this from like middleschoolers and high schoolers
quite a bit, where they'll feelguilty that they're not crying
like other people in theirfamily.
And so, yeah, and some peopleare more streaky.
(19:34):
It's like it kind of builds upover time and then they can
finally cry and it's whenthey're alone they can't cry
when someone else is there.
Yeah, yeah, in the shower, inthe car.
It's like that's when they canfinally cry.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
The thing that I like about grief versus mourning is
the element of control that youcan have with mourning.
Grief is that automaticresponse, it just happens, it
shows up, it just shows up.
But mourning is something youget to decide how to do, yeah,
(20:09):
and something you get to learnfor yourself regarding what
feels best for you.
And my morning looks differentthan Aaron's and Brad's and I
like that a little bit.
There's a little bit of controlamongst a season of being out
of control.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, cause I've heard so many times in the adult
groups I lead, that theemotional burst of tears or
sadness.
I walked through the store andI saw their favorite ice cream
in the store or their cologne ortheir perfume, and it was just
instant.
One mom said years ago that shedrove by a billboard that was
(20:52):
for her son's employer and justboom, on the highway she's
instantly crying Right, we don't, we don't expect those things,
but the morning we can controlin a sense or plan.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, it's something that we're learning.
It's a new version of ourself,this world without our person in
it, and so we're discovering anew part of ourself.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Along the way.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
It's a piece of that transformation.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, and sometimes I would say that, you know, we
can have control, and othertimes there's an overwhelming
kind of feeling and it's just wejust express it in the moment
and it could be just that.
You know, just we weren't evenexpecting to feel like a hot
feeling of jealousy or anger andwe're like and we're just mad
(21:39):
and it's just comes out likesuper fast and we didn't really
feel like we had the choice tolike control it or, like you
know, measure it in any way, butit's just like, it's just there
and we're there in that kind ofexperience of it as well.
And so I like what you're saying, just as like it.
(21:59):
Just like sometimes it's likewe get to choose to write and
like sometimes, as we choose todo that, that's when those kind
of emotions get to flow and it'skind of our natural way of
mourning.
Those kind of emotions get toflow and it's kind of our
natural way of mourning.
And then other times it mightbe these very automatic
responses that come out of usand we're not even expecting
that.
(22:20):
We just or like a memory orsomething happened, and we may
even be our expression might belaughter, yeah, because
something hit us.
That was really just kind offunny.
It might be a memory orsomething about the grief
process that we weren'texpecting.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
So, Erin, would you say that in time those automatic
responses that come up canbecome a little less scary,
because you can say oh, thereyou are.
There's that feeling ofjealousy.
There it is.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, I think it does soften over time and some of
what might come up that is verystrong and like that hot, those
hot emotions that come out ofyou that you weren't expecting,
as you continue to express themover and over and you're not
letting that build up happen.
I think it softens and that'skind of that feeling.
(23:13):
That kind of experience thatwe're talking about with the
integration is that we'reintegrating, we're expressing it
in the moment, we'reintegrating it, we're finding
ways to express.
Like you said, it's like we'replanning a session, we're going
to sit down with the music thathelps us to express and or
whatever that might be.
(23:34):
Then we can just continue thatrhythm.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
I've heard adults say in group and this whole idea of
life goes on and they areworking through their grief.
And it is a process that thoseFacebook memories that pop up
out of the blue bring smiles andnot tears.
And they're, it's just adifferent.
They're never coming back andwe acknowledge that and it'll
(24:01):
never be the same and weunderstand that.
But it goes from that thatoutburst of anger, that eruption
of anger, an instant flood oftears, to a soft smile or, you
know, maybe with a couple tearsattached.
But yeah, there's definitely adifference as they work through
it and process through grief.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, just how it softens over time.
So you know we've heard fromparents where they're surprised
and really taken off guard bysome of the memories that will
pop up on their phone, and howhard that is.
We don't like the phrase.
Like time heals all wounds oranything like that.
But I do think that thosereactions do soften over time.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, I can think of one gentleman that
volunteers here at Jessica'shouse and his son died nearly 20
years ago and he just said it'sdifferent, it's not as heavy as
it was but, it's still there.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You're still carrying it.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
You're still carrying it, but it's just different
yeah, yeah, and not to say heever assumes it's going to go
away.
That's never been a statementfrom him.
But it's different and it's umI don't even want to say the
word manageable, because hischild is never coming back.
But yeah, it's different.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I think about him and how he facilitates our families
who've lost a child and theycome in and maybe the loss
happened just a couple of monthsago and he really holds that
hope.
Yeah, that it is different, ithas changed.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
And he's changed.
It has changed and he's changed.
It's changed him Absolutely.
Yeah, he's changed.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Right, but for the other parents to look to him and
I think about him right now andhow he's traveling with his
wife and they're doing somereally fun kinds of activities
in retirement and they foundsome joy, but they miss their
son.
So much, absolutely they wishthat he was here, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Colleen and Aaron.
Thank you, but right now we'regoing to turn the corner and
head into our break.
But in segment two we're goingto also explore the idea of
helping your child explore andopen up to their sorrow.
As we go to break, I want tointroduce you to Gary Shriver,
our producer and engineer that'sbehind the scenes and he's
going to read a quote that willtransition us into our segment
(26:23):
two.
Thank you, brad.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
It's an honor to be here Now.
Our quote today comes to usfrom speaker, grief counselor
and author of several books ongrief care, Dr Alan Woolfelt.
His quote is titled you mustsay hello before you say goodbye
.
Love inevitably leads to grief.
You see, love and grief are twosides of the same precious coin
(26:47):
.
One does not and cannot existwithout the other.
They are the yin and the yangof our lives and from the moment
we're born, we say hello tolove in our lives by seeking it
out, by acknowledging it when itunfolds, by welcoming it and by
nurturing it.
So it will continue.
We must also say hello to lossand grief in our lives.
(27:10):
And to be sure, we don't seekit out, but when it unfolds we
must acknowledge it.
I would even say we mustwelcome our grief.
I mean, after all, the hurt wefeel is the consequence of the
love that we were privileged toexperience.
Yes, we must simultaneouslywork at and surrender to the
grief journey.
This is in itself a paradox.
(27:32):
As the griever comes to knowthis paradox, he can very slowly
discover the soothing of hissoul.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Gary, thank you for that quote and welcome to the
podcast.
Hey, we're going to shift gearsinto segment two and talk a
little bit about helping yourkids open up to their sorrow.
Colleen, do you want to share alittle bit about how we might
be able to model that for ourown kiddos in our homes?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I'd love to Brad, and to start it, I want to go back
a little bit and invite ourlistener to take a pause and
think about how was griefmodeled for you growing up?
What was that culture ofmourning in the house you were
raised in?
Because that was your firstteacher and we have a tendency
(28:19):
to lean on that in the way wenavigate life, the way we parent
our kids, and that the same istrue as how we're going to mourn
and what we're going to modelfor our kids.
Was there an open invitation togrieve in your home, in your
family of origin, or did youjust need to move on after the
(28:40):
funeral?
Was it not spoken of again?
After you've thought about it?
Now you get to decide how youwant to model mourning for your
kids.
There's choice in that for youand you can do different or you
can bring in parts of it thatyou liked that were helpful to
you, but you get to decide,moving forward, what that
(29:02):
culture looks like for yourfamily.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Yeah, there's choice even in when, like is it
appropriate and how soon?
Right.
And there's the risk avoidancepiece that we don't want to feel
, some of those feelings Like ifI don't feel them, you know,
then they don't exist, but theyare still there.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, and even just all the well-intentioned advice
or opinions that you receivefrom family or friends about
what you should or should not bedoing for your kids, or how you
should or should not be actingfor your kids, or how you should
or should not be acting aroundyour kids.
This is really your choice,though, in what feels the most
authentic and genuine, and, aswe've been saying, it's to lean
(29:43):
into that grief.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Yeah, and I.
I just want to recognize that.
You said the advice thatthere's.
You said the advice that you'regoing to be given bad advice
and shallow comments and thingsthat do not resonate or do not
help.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, I think, when families come here to Jessica's
house and you know, one of thevery first times we meet with
them, we ask them, like just byshow of hands, like how many of
you are getting a lot of advice,and so many of them are raising
their hands and it can becomeso exhausting, you know, and
(30:21):
some of the avoidance thatColleen mentioned, where people
say just stay busy, you know,and just some of those backup
messages that they might receive, as you know, and they're in a
better place, and some of thosepieces that, because there's so
much discomfort and so much ofthe advice that's given is
(30:45):
because of the person's owndiscomfort of actually sitting
in their sorrow and opening totheir sorrow.
And so when you are having, Iguess, really, and when you're
present to your grief reaction,what's so amazing about that is
that you know what you need.
(31:05):
So it's so rare for somebodyelse to know what you need.
And so even if, like, like I'llspeak for myself, having the
loss of a child and a mom when Iwas young, a husband when my
children were young, I have noidea how someone else's mourning
or what they need.
(31:25):
Only they know, becauseeverything is nuanced in grief,
like the circumstancessurrounding the death, the
support they have, therelationship they had with that
person.
It's also unique to eachindividual, even inside of a
family, and so the advice reallycan't be received because it
(31:48):
can't apply, you know.
And so it's so nice for ourfamilies to know that they are
in a room with other families,but they'll never be given
advice.
It's just all the listening andall the presence and all the
witnessing and just the beingwilling to sit in silence and
(32:08):
not fill it up.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
The parents that are listening right now.
They know their kid the bestand it's so fascinating that
people that don't know all thereality of that family love to
give advice.
But for parents to just trusttheir gut and model what their
kiddos need.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And wouldn't you guys say that so much of the time
that advice?
It comes from a reallywell-meaning place, because they
just don't want to see you inpain, and so the advice they're
giving you is an attempt to makeyou better or to help you heal
quickly, and what we're tryingto say here is that that
(32:46):
importance of the darkness needsto come before the light and
that the pain comes beforecelebration.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
And also like what you were saying, brad, is that
the parents who are listeningright now.
You know your child better thananyone else and this is a time
where your attunement reallymakes a difference.
You know if their behavior'soff, if you know when their
(33:17):
anxiety, when you're noticingsomething that they may be
developing new fears, and youalso are acquainted with what
helps them to feel better.
And that's why just thatattunement is so important,
because I, you know, we alwayshear how that mother or dad's
(33:37):
instinct can, even with thedoctor, when they're like, no, I
think there's something else.
And so much of the time thedoctor will say, hey, I listen
to parents because they reallyknow their child's body and
what's normal and what's not, sothat attunement for your child
when they're grieving reallymakes a difference.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
And there's no greater way to pick up on that
than being present with yourkiddos in the midst of the grief
.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, I think we can never discount what physical
presence can do for a child tobe there with them and to notice
and we talk a lot about evenjust touching in, even if it's
just three times a day, thoselittle touch-ins.
It could be a morning actuallyphysically touching, you know,
(34:29):
waking them up with like alittle just back rub or a little
scratch or whatever that mightbe, and so, and then touching in
, you know, at dinnertime and atbedtime and really listening to
them, being able to askopen-ended questions and really
(34:51):
just physically being there, itreally makes a difference
because you are really acontainer for your child and the
fact of your, as you aregrieving and you're mourning and
you're attuning to comealongside that and put your arms
around them and and be therefor them to help them as they
(35:25):
may feel emotions that feel outof control.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
And I'm glad you said the different times of day,
because there's some that arelistening and thinking I've got
work, so there's a chunk of theday they got school, kiddos are
out right, but there's there'sthose times in the morning and
maybe afternoon or evening, andthen the bedtime.
That are all parts of our dayand times in which we can
connect.
Colleen, I was going to ask you.
Sometimes we as adults distractourselves from going through
(35:51):
the pain, but we also see thiswith kiddos too.
Right that they might jump intoa video game because it just
gives them a chance to check out, or sports, and not that those
are bad things, but how, how canparents help kiddos walk
through a bit of that?
Speaker 3 (36:09):
That's so true, Brad.
Our brains are wired to avoidpain.
You know we don't want to sitin that space, and so we can
naturally gravitate and grabthings that will numb us from
those feelings or distract us,switch our focus.
You might notice that inyourself.
(36:30):
With too much phone time, maybeovereating, kind of just
binging shows on Netflix is ajoke, but really those can
become activities for numbing ifit's in too much.
And you're modeling that foryour kids too.
And your kids are trying toavoid pain at the same time.
(36:53):
But what's interesting aboutthem is that they have a more
natural flow with their grief.
They kind of dive in and out ofit as they feel capable, and so
we talk about they absorb theirgrief and their loss in bits
and pieces, so they'll dip intothat space, do a little bit of
(37:16):
grief work and then pop on outand go back into normal life.
But then they go back into thatspace when they're ready again.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, I think what we see kids come in and ask
questions about the death andthen go out, go back and play,
and they do model that naturalkind of organic way of grieving
so much.
We kind of have to think alittle bit more as adults of
engaging with our grief and thenretreating back and they kind
of naturally will go in and outand in and out, and so I think
(37:48):
they're one of our best teachers, right To watch what they
naturally do.
And we kind of overthink itsometimes where we're noticing
like, oh, like I have beenreally distracting myself and
I'm not engaging with my griefas much.
But you know, it's okay to giveyour brain a break, right, it's
(38:08):
okay to.
I just think about in my ownlife, after Carter died, my son
Carter, my husband Brian and Iwould lay in bed at night and
there was a period of time wherewe would watch these little
five minute videos of a comedianthat we really enjoyed, because
we felt such despair and wewere so overwhelmed with our
(38:30):
grief that we just needed a tinybit before we plunged into the
darkness of the.
You know all night long that wejust needed something just to
give our brain a break and ithelped so much and he would just
have it on his phone and saylet's just watch a little
snippet of this before we go tosleep.
And you know what?
(38:51):
We needed that because we werereally in it and so sometimes we
all need, and so I thinkthere's this like overdoing it
and then it's like so we werepresently.
We've been talking about ourthe golden hour.
We want to be present to ourgrief and really allow it to be.
But if you're just noticingthat it's too much, you know,
(39:13):
and for a long time.
I have this like little headbandI wear that has a Bluetooth
time.
I have this like littleheadband I wear that has a
Bluetooth and I'm going to justsay it's been five years That'll
be five years next month forCarter's death and I still wear
that headband every night.
And I listened to like a littletravel podcast, because when I
wake up at night I have such ahard time in the nighttime to be
(39:39):
present, with the pain of it.
It's like I can grieve duringthe day and like be present in
to all the things and but Istill can't.
And sometimes I have a goal oflike maybe I won't listen to my
little travel podcast tonight,maybe I'll just, and I just I
can't, I can't do it, and solike as much as we can be
(40:02):
present to our pain.
We also need to know where ourlimits are, and it's okay
there's no shame in that.
It's okay to find somethingthat gets you through the night.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Like we can do that through the night like we can do
that, and sometimes we justneed to be there and and we'll
talk about doing those things inour morning process.
They're okay as long as they'renot hurting you or hurting
someone else, right, yeah, andso there are those things that
what makes you able to sleep orget through a day.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
It's just an anchor outside of my own mind that
gives my brain enough of a breakthat I wake up and I'm in Rome,
wherever I am, in this travelpodcast and I started thinking
about that and it's like, okay,I can just like listen to this
very like rhythmic voice and goback to sleep and you know, it's
(40:59):
a safe way to rest when I needit.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
And for you it's like sleep, right, and I'm thinking
there's kiddos that might haveoutbursts of physical behavior,
right that it's that grief andthat mourning is manifesting
itself through physicaloutbursts or disobedience.
There's a number of things wecould say that don't miss those
(41:28):
outbursts, sometimes as justgrief finding its way out, oh
yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Behavior is our best teacher with kids right, just
seeing.
You know what are we seeing andhow has grief changed their
safety and whatever it might betheir you know worries and they
may need to kind of push upagainst that.
(41:53):
I know Colleen and I havewritten in our book about just
healthy aggression and howimportant it is that they can
learn how to let that out oftheir body in a healthy way.
In Jessica's house we have avolcano room.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Yeah, and as you were talking, I didn't think of this
until you were talking, butthat behavior and I specifically
was speaking about outbursts,but there might be a kid that
was pretty active.
That's now pretty quiet, or?
Pretty, reserved or isolatingright, so don't miss that
message too.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Right yeah, and just for our listeners, we do go
quite a bit into some of likethe, where we call it like too
hot.
You know know where you are moreon that spectrum of like the
angry outburst but, then there'sthat other part where you're
really too cold and you'reseeing a child that was once
(42:48):
very highly engaging with andwith life and they're now just
in that place of hypo which wecall, like, hypo activation
instead of hyper activation.
And we talk a lot in the bookabout how do we get to our sweet
spot.
That's kind of more in thatmiddle and we give some really
specific ways that we can getthere.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Yeah, I'm going to throw a question out for the
both of you.
That wasn't in our notes, so beready.
But I I will often hear in mygroups with parents and adults
that the idea that the way Ikind of phrase it is there's all
these big emotions that arehard for us adults to face and
whether you're a 25-year-oldwith a kiddo, or 50, you know,
(43:31):
with grandkids, or 60 orwhatever that may be, it's hard
enough for us with these bigemotions, with grief.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
But take those same big emotions and feelings and
life's out of control sincesomeone died, but it's in that
little body Like how do you helpa kiddo process such big
feelings but yet young, youthful, you know that little body idea
you know that little body ideathis is where you come in as the
(44:03):
parent and you get to be acontainer for their feelings
that are just spilling over, andso making sure, first, that
you're in a good place toreceive those you're, you're not
in a hyper activation or hypoactivation state, you're in your
own little window of tolerance,your little sweet spot, and
then just coming down to theirlevel and just being there for
that, bringing that calmness tothe moment and allowing them to
(44:27):
have their feelings and,depending on their age, doing a
little commentating about whatyou're noticing.
You know, usually, once the bigfeelings are done, they're kind
of in a spot where they canactually hear it and receive the
message.
And so, wow, you looked reallymad right there.
What was going on, what didyour body feel like?
And so in that moment, you'reteaching them to start to
(44:50):
recognize what that feeling is,what does it feel like, and then
teaching them what to do withit.
Do you want to get some ice andgo throw it outside?
On the ground Makes a reallycool cracking sound.
Do you want to throw it againstthe fence?
What if we get some of those?
You know, buy those poolnoodles at the dollar store and
go thwack the side of the houseor the fence, because anger is
(45:12):
normal and as long as you're nothurting yourself or others or
breaking property, it's okay.
Hurting yourself or others orbreaking property, it's okay.
And then the same could be trueif they're in a hypo activated
state, where they're really low.
And so that's the perk of youdoing those little check-ins a
few times a day is it keeps youin touch with how they're doing,
what you're noticing changes intheir mood or behavior and just
(45:36):
being with them, being presenthey, let's go for a walk.
It's kind of the flip side ofthose behaviors that you're
noticing, kind of the reverse,could be helpful getting them
moving, getting some energy intotheir body.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I'm just thinking, Colleen, as you said, for the
parents listening that are sooverwhelmed with their own
emotions and you mentionedfinding out like finding, you
know, your sweet spot, andsometimes we just you know, we
talk about just you mentionedearlier, Colleen just like
putting your hand, and sometimesit's just pressing your hand
(46:13):
into your heart and just tellingyourself a message that you're
safe right now.
And sometimes it's just taking areally deep breath, sometimes a
forceful exhale, just all theway out, moving your body from
side to side, going outside fora second, so as you see your
child really having a really bigoutburst, being able to take a
(46:37):
moment and even being able toexpress that to your child like
mom or dad, like we need amoment and we're going to just
take a second to find calm inour own bodies so that we can be
a container.
And I think for the parents outthere that just think, like I'm
, this is so much for me, it'sso hard to even come and be a
(46:58):
container.
These are just little thingsthat we can do and sometimes we
need help with that, we needsupport.
We might need someone to stopby and just help us and maybe we
just can't find that sweet spotin that moment, and maybe a
neighbor or friend can help usas well.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
Well, Colleen, I've heard the word container.
Can you describe what you meanby that, Because Aaron used it
too and we talk about it here.
But what do you mean by thatfor those that are listening?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
They're like container.
What do you speak of?
First, I want to share ananalogy I heard once that made a
lot of sense to me.
If you imagine yourself as aglass and imagine, you know,
with how you're doing right now,with all the things going on in
your life, that adds fullnessto your glass.
And if you're already prettyfull and something else gets
(47:50):
dumped in, it's just going tooverflow.
You're kind of at max capacity.
But if you're in a good spot andyour glass is a little bit more
empty, you can absorb more thanyou can intake more.
And so if your glass is alittle emptier and your kiddos
is at max capacity andoverflowing, you can absorb some
(48:13):
of that energy.
You're in a spot where you cansit with them and just be
present to their.
Whether it's a big outburst orit's, you know, something
looking different.
That's what that container is,that what you're conveying to
them is that your big feelingsaren't scaring me.
I can take it.
And if a kid knows that you cantake it, then it gives them a
(48:37):
little bit of confidence thatthey can too and that they're
not holding it alone.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
And that there's space to be present with them
and to hear it, to hear thosebig words and those big emotions
, that that it doesn't overflowyou, like you're saying that
those kids can kind of almostpass those on to you and that
you're going to sit and thengive them time and space to pass
those over, in a sense.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, and maybe the child in a way can think you
know what, if they don't scareyou, then maybe they won't scare
me Because, again, whetherthey're big feelings or small
feelings, feelings are there.
You know it's, it's a normalpart of being a human and so
it's about what we do with them.
I think it's also important tonote that supporting your child
(49:23):
doesn't always mean that youhave to be talking about the
grief and talking about thesadness or the feelings or the
person who died, just being withthem and playing or having fun,
having those moments that feela little bit more like that old
normal.
That is also supporting yourchild.
(49:44):
Erin has shared a great analogywith me with the teens and the
young adults in her life.
They didn't need her to bethere all the time talking about
the person or engaging, butthey needed you there as a
potted plant so to speak, just apotted plant in the corner so
that when they did need you, youwere there.
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Yeah, you weren't far .
Speaker 3 (50:08):
You weren't far away and that is the kind of stance
you took in your home later on,and so just want to encourage.
It doesn't always have to looklike grief work, it's just being
with.
Speaker 4 (50:19):
Just being in the proximity of your kids.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yeah, you know, even just you can be sitting on the
couch together, but think aboutthat difference when you're
actually right next to eachother and your feet are touching
.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
There's a difference there.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
And that's what we need, as parents, too, is for
someone to walk with us in ourgrief, right yeah, and it's a
way for us to to give some ofthose emotions and feelings that
we have.
And, aaron, I know in the firstsegment today you took we and
we mentioned more of this, butthat's what we need those people
around us when it's fresh andwhen it's just happened, to not
(50:55):
buck up and try and do all thethings or get busy, you know but
, we need those people to wherewe can lean on and rely on in
those first days, weeks andmonths.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
We need them, we need support now and always, you
know, and just knowing that wehave a vulnerability that we
didn't have before, justeverything has changed.
And so finding those peoplesome you know, I think about,
you know what you just said andI think about the people that
are really good in like kind ofthose like critical times, and
(51:28):
then you have, like your lifers,that are with you long-term,
and so find your people atdifferent stages or times
periods of your grief, and youknow, just know that you'll need
support as long as, as long asthere's time, right that you
(51:48):
have on this earth?
Yeah, because it it's just, it'sneeded, and everything has
changed, and you never imaginedyour life would be like this.
Speaker 4 (51:58):
And the people that give you those buck up messages.
You're not the people that sitin it with us.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
And sometimes they don't know.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
They don't.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
They don't know.
But find those people that willlisten.
And I always like the quotefrom Parker Palmer that just
says you know, being listened tois the closest form of feeling
loved.
And just like we need that lovein our life, we need that extra
love in our life right now,just as we heal, yeah.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Aaron and Colleen.
Thank you for this today.
Sure, appreciate our timetogether and, for those of you
listening, be sure to get moreresources at jessicashouseorg,
and if you have any ideas fortopics or if you have questions,
feel free to reach out to us byemail at info at
jessicashouseorg.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of when
Grief Comes Home, where we'll betalking about the circumstances
(52:55):
of the death and how they mayimpact your grieving process.
Until then, we wish you well.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouseorg to download ourfree resources and be sure to
(53:24):
follow Jessica's House on socialmedia, and if you have any
questions or topics you'd likefor us to explore in future
episodes, just send us an emailto jessicashouseorg.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time, for
when Grief Comes Home.
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