January 14, 2025 • 48 mins
Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief.
I this episode we explore emotions with complex deaths—guilt, shame, and emotional isolation. These feelings are often magnified when the loss is stigmatized, such as in cases of suicide. We find ways of creating safe spaces for expression and discuss open communication within families. This conversation encourages listeners to honor the magnitude of their loss and acknowledges the conflicting emotions, including relief, that survivors might experience.
We provide practical coping strategies for those affected by grief with trauma, how to find support and find those you can have honest conversations about death by suicide and mental health. Special attention is also given to families affected by homicide and the complex emotions tied to ongoing court procedures.
For parents, we offer guidance on helping children with grief, advocating for honest communication, and the sharing of information. Join us as we help create a safe environment where both adults and children can express their feelings and find ways to heal.
If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out for support. You can call the National LifeLine at 988 or text HELLO to 741741.
American Foundation for Suicide Prevention: www.afsp.org
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For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gary Shriver (00:00):
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at.
Colleen Montague (00:13):
Jessica's House.
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague,program director for Jessica's
House and a licensed marriageand family therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of when
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
Now through this podcast, they'll share grief
resources and coping skills,heartfelt stories and insights
to support parents as they raisechildren who are grieving
Together.
Brad Quillen (00:42):
you'll find strength as we learn to live
with loss and find ways to heal.
Well, hello, hello everybody.
It is Brad from Jessica's House, and today we're going to be
talking about the circumstancesaround the death.
The grieving process carriesmany complex emotions and these
can be intensified and magnifiedbased on how a person dies,
especially when it involves adeath from a homicide, a suicide
(01:04):
or an overdose.
Well, hey, aaron, I know somethat are listening.
As soon as they hear that intro, their palms start to sweat.
They might have a pit in theirstomach.
The nerves have come outbecause the reality of how some
people die brings up layers ofcomplexities.
And even in your own storythat's a piece of your story
(01:24):
with your mom and how she died,and you and I were talking a
little bit ago that some peoplemight need to pause and take a
break from this episode, becausethey know what it's about.
But come back to it.
And there were days in your lifewhere you need to take a pause
and then come back because ofhow your mom died, and I'll let
you share a bit about that.
Erin Nelson (01:41):
Yeah, so um with my story and how Tyler died in an
accident and then a few monthslater my mom, who lived with
bipolar disorder, did her thirdattempt at suicide, um, with an
overdose, and she did that inJanuary.
(02:01):
Tyler died in June.
In January she overdosed andthen she was in a coma for three
months and died in March.
And so with her living with hermental illness and just how she
went up and down a lot and evenother attempts at suicide and
(02:26):
even other attempts at suicide,she always was able to come
through it and get better for alittle while and stabilize, I
should say really for a littlewhile.
And so when she died, I wasjust really surprised that it
happened and there was so muchfragility because we're coming
off of, you know, just ninemonths or so after Tyler died.
(02:49):
So the complexity and some ofour listeners may have this in
their own story of more than onedeath at a time, and so all of
that just really matters.
And we talk about death and wetalk about trauma with a loss
and when you have a death thatreally overwhelms your capacity
(03:11):
to find what you need to feelsafe.
That is something that we'rekind of introducing, that trauma
, feeling of like feeling justoverwhelmed by feeling unsafe
and powerless, and so much ofwhat happened at that time for
(03:31):
me.
Brad Quillen (03:32):
I had a lot of reactions that were trauma
related and so I think I neededa lot of extra care and that
added a lot of layers ofcomplexity in my grief, and
there's complexities, because itcould have been a car crash, it
could be homicide, it could bean illness, that, as you said,
(03:53):
that there's a death, that therelationship was fractured and
then the accident happens right,and so there's all those
complexities that come into it.
But sometimes with the homicide, suicide, overdose, those are
just more natural with some ofthe complexities that come into
it.
And I just kind of dawned on methat, knowing your story and
we've talked about this beforebut you have the suicide piece,
(04:16):
but it's from overdose and soit's kind of like a magnifier.
Erin Nelson (04:19):
Yeah, definitely, and I think the complexity in
the relationship and I know wehear this at Jessica's house,
there were so many complex partsof relationships before the
person died and sometimes you'regrieving what you wish could
have happened stabilize and shewould find just some type of
healing and something that couldhelp her through this better.
(04:50):
And you know it was really.
It was hard to accept and Ithink that especially with the
child relationship with a mom,there's also a part of rejection
that you can feel like was Inot enough to keep you here?
And you know, as we went on andwe got to learn about um a
(05:12):
suicide, and how you know,people want to be out of pain.
They don't want to leave theirloved ones but they do want to
be out of pain.
And so as I learned more aboutkind of um, just suicidality,
and some of just the researchthat's gone in to suicide, and
learning more about grieversafter a suicide, I started to
(05:36):
understand it a little bit more.
I don't know if it makes iteasier, but it helps to
integrate the loss in ahealthier way.
Brad Quillen (05:47):
Yeah, and I know you've talked about this before,
cause, colleen, I'm going to wewant to talk about the
isolation component.
But even between the way Tylerdied with a plane crash, you
know, and then a number ofmonths later your mom dies from
suicide, people treated youdifferent in the grocery store
around town.
You know at work all thesedifferent things right, and so
can you speak to that for asecond in your own life?
(06:08):
Because we want to address thisissue of isolation.
Grief feels isolating enough,and then sometimes, in the
circumstances of how the persondies, it's felt even more by
people.
Erin Nelson (06:20):
I'm surprised, I think, at the shame you can feel
, no matter how someone dies,Correct, Because there's
something that you just thinkmaybe if this person died
there's something I did to causeit, or there's just some shame,
like this thing happened to me.
But I do believe that withTyler's accident because it was,
(06:43):
you know, the plane crashed anda clear blue sky and you know
it was an accident and so butwith the suicide and when you
talk about like in the grocerystore and seeing people, I think
there's just, especiallybecause this was so many years
ago, that there there wasn't anunderstanding.
I think now, like with somecelebrity deaths and some more
(07:06):
understanding about mentalhealth, and I think that we're
making some progress andunderstanding a little bit more
about suicide and mental illness, but with you know, at that
time I don't think people knewwhat to do, and so with Tyler's
accident it was just like oh,we're here to support you, but
(07:27):
with my mom's suicide, I don'tthink people had the words or
knew how to just surround us thesame way they did with Tyler's
death, and so I definitely felta lot of shame and I don't think
I could talk as openly about mymom's death as I did with
(07:49):
Tyler's.
Brad Quillen (07:51):
Yeah, and you spent a couple of minutes here
talking about shame, but I'mgoing to throw the word guilt in
there because I think in someof these scenarios that guilt's
a very close cousin to the shamefeeling with the how someone
died of I didn't see why, didn'tI?
I wish I wouldn't have saidlike there's all these other
(08:12):
things, and sometimes it's therelationships fractured and
there's boundaries drawn withgood reason, but after the death
it's there's a guilt of I drewa boundary, or I needed to keep
safety in the home, or I had toget myself to a healthy place
and move away from that, andthat plays into it as well.
Erin Nelson (08:34):
Absolutely.
I think when we're talkingabout these complex deaths,
there is always guilt.
I think it is part of the griefprocess, but you can feel more
guilt and even some shame.
So yeah, I think with thesecomplex deaths there's so much
that you wanted to do to changethe circumstance and you just
(08:56):
have no control over that, andthat's kind of where that trauma
piece comes in.
Brad Quillen (09:01):
Mama, peace comes in, and we've been talking
about shame and guilt, but Iknow isolation is in the middle
of all that as well and, colleen, we spoke a little bit ago
about just some of thoseisolating feelings that people
have in the midst of how someonedies and the complexities that
are around a death.
Can you share a little bitabout what we were talking about
earlier with that?
Colleen Montague (09:21):
We've shared before how kids especially think
they're the only ones that haveexperienced the loss or the
death of somebody in their life.
And when it is by suicide orhomicide or overdose, those are
tend to be stigmatized types oflosses and what we have heard
(09:42):
from our families over the yearsis, instead of the support
leaning in, they've felt supportkind of leaning out, and for so
many different reasons.
You know it can be that theydon't know how to support you.
They may have their ownopinions or judgments,
unfortunately, about thecircumstances.
(10:02):
They may assume that you're notas shaken up, Maybe you're not
as surprised that the persondied.
Maybe they assume you thoughtit was coming depending on the
lifestyle that that your lovedone had.
And I think it's important tosay that we must always honor
(10:24):
the magnitude of the loss, nomatter the way that it happened.
Brad Quillen (10:29):
And in those seasons and what you're speaking
of, there's some dual emotions,like there's moments of highs
and there's moments of lows.
It's hard to celebrate becauseof what's happening.
Can you speak to just kind ofthe conflicting emotions even?
Colleen Montague (10:46):
Yes, even that emotion of relief.
You know, if your personstruggled with mental illness or
with addiction and you werealways worried about them and
now you know where they are.
Now you know that they're nolonger in that pain, you may
(11:08):
feel some relief for them, butthen you might feel awful for
feeling relief.
But it's just a naturalresponse.
Everybody's relationship withtheir person is so unique,
there's so much complexity anduniqueness.
I'll just say it again itdoesn't mirror anybody else's
(11:28):
loss Exactly.
Erin Nelson (11:31):
Yeah, I was just thinking about when you said you
know, it's different foreverybody, just even inside of a
family, and I know that withfamilies here at Jessica's house
, just when we're talking aboutlike openly talk, you know,
seeing how the person died, eachperson may feel differently
about how to communicate that.
(11:53):
You know, communicate how theperson died.
And so just knowing that weheard when dad said you know, I
feel like there's a lot ofdenial in our family about, you
know, how the person died.
There's a lot of denial in ourfamily about how the person died
and so some of the people don'twant to actually say it or
accept it.
They want to say it wassomething else and just being
(12:18):
able to honor each person's way.
And I know at Jessica's houseeven sometimes it's just hard to
say it and so we want to alwayshonor the parents who come in
and what they're seeing todayabout how the person died.
And as they learn to feel safe,they learn that they're
embraced for who they are, howthe person died, that we're
(12:41):
countering the stigma If it is astigmatized loss, so much of
the time they start to feelsafer and they can talk more
openly and that's such animportant part of healing.
Brad Quillen (12:52):
I'm so glad you said that because when I sit in
groups with homicide, suicideand overdose, when they find
that comfort and thattrustability around the circle
that others are walking through,that are in that same season
that they're in, there's achance for them to start asking
the rest of the group, but evenfor giving themselves permission
to ask the why and the what ifquestions.
(13:15):
What do you say to those peoplethat are in the middle of the
whys and the what ifs?
Erin Nelson (13:21):
I would say you just have to be there because
there's so much mystery.
You know we say aroundJessica's house that mysteries
are meant to be pondered and notexplained.
And it's really pondering.
That's part of the griefprocess.
It's being able to sit in thewhy and what ifs and know that
(13:42):
you may never have the answers.
But it's okay to ask all thequestions.
You can say it a million times,just keep asking and you need
someone to sit right next to youand ask those questions.
You're asking why, maybe to God.
You're wondering why you?
Why did this happen?
Why couldn't they get better?
(14:02):
Why was there no healing?
And there's just so much aroundthat and just it's not how you
imagined your life would be.
Colleen Montague (14:12):
And to your earlier point, erin, if you were
in a family that has thedifferences of how we're going
to talk about it or not talkabout it and you don't have a
peer support group near you andyou don't have a peer support
group near you, find thosepeople in your life that you can
be real with.
Do you have a friend, do youhave a coworker or another
(14:32):
family member who is willing togo into that space with you to
just talk really openly aboutthe death and ask those
wondering questions?
Erin Nelson (14:46):
those wondering questions.
Yeah, and I I'm just thinkingalong those lines that sometimes
even some religious communitiesmay not feel comfortable
talking about it, or maybe Iknow there's this thought, um,
even from I think it's gettingbetter in faith communities, but
just that, maybe if the persondied of suicide that they don't
go to heaven.
And I'll never forget a parentfrom Jessica's house who said
(15:13):
you know, if my son showed up toThanksgiving a day early, you
know what would I say?
You know, and you know Iwouldn't close the door in their
face.
I would just say welcome in,you know.
And and so just to know thatnot every community embraces the
truth about mental health andhas a good, broad understanding
(15:36):
of why suicide can happen, andand so just being able to find
some well-researched communitiesthat really understand about a
little bit more about mentalillness and how it affects you,
and so that you can feel thatsupport and that you don't feel
that stigma and shame.
Brad Quillen (15:58):
And we've talked about this before, and I just
want to reiterate that there arepeople that, in the midst of
this, you think are going to bethere for you and aren't.
And then there's people thatare going to show up that you
never would have expected, andso you've got to find those
people and those communities andthose places that you can go
and have some of those hardconversations and be able to say
(16:18):
I wonder what, how could they?
And that, that, that, thatright, right and so.
But I, if, if you're feeling,as you listen to this, that I
thought so and so was going tobe there with me through this, a
family member or a close friendor someone, and they're not,
that's somewhat normal and wehear that often.
Erin Nelson (16:36):
Yes, it's.
It's hard to find those who youcan just speak so freely and
just be yourself and be whereyou are in the process, and but
you know, just keep seeking them.
Brad Quillen (16:49):
And you don't know who they are until you're
there.
Erin Nelson (16:51):
Right, and they may change too.
Brad Quillen (16:53):
Very true, hey, erin and Colleen, speaking of
some of those those topics, Iknow with homicide there's a
number of things that are arehard with that and suicide and
overdose.
But I just want to take aminute to those that are living
the reality of a homicide, deathand just some of those pieces
that come into play with thecourt procedures.
(17:15):
And families have said to ushere that our case is cold and
all those things.
Just some of those otheremotions that come in and DAs
and police and those things.
Those are hard topics.
You need a place to be able totalk about that with someone
else that's walked through itand that's a great piece of
Jessica's house.
Those families get to do thathere.
But if someone's wrestling withthat, what would you say to
(17:37):
them?
Erin Nelson (17:37):
in some of those instances, yeah, I think you
know, when we're facilitatinggroups with families affected by
homicide, I think one emotionthat I think comes up so much is
rage, you know, just at theperpetrator and what it's stolen
(17:58):
from their family, just theenergy, the investigations and
ongoing trials and what it isstealing from your family and
your you, and how you'reconstantly having to revisit
what happened and even withprobation that comes up or you
(18:20):
know any, any court proceedings,and so there's so much, there,
there's so much, and so there'sso much, there, there's so much.
You know, many times there aregraphic details and it feels so
(18:40):
acute because it was done tosomeone you knew so well of that
.
And finding safety in your body, as you have images and we've
talked about this before of justreally finding safety and
finding what you need to thatnext moment of just feeling that
safety.
Brad Quillen (18:59):
And there's if you're listening and you've had
a death by homicide, there's areality of going to.
If you go to court, you'regoing to learn things that you
never knew and see things inpreliminary hearings and then
the actual case that, as youspeak to, that's what happened
and and you have to decide ifyou want to hear that if you're
(19:21):
able to hear that and see that.
Erin Nelson (19:23):
Yeah, and I think again, just like with suicide we
talked about each family member, you know, doing it differently
and giving, just honoring eachperson's way of doing it,
knowing that one person mightwant to go to the court, another
person may not, and just accept, you know, accepting each
other's way of grieving and alsoeach person's way of going
(19:47):
forward.
And I think with the fragilityof grief you may feel
differently all the time.
And what we talk about atJessica's house is something
called co-regulation and itreally is about finding safety
when you're with another personthat can support you.
So realizing that when you'regoing through a complex loss
(20:11):
like homicide, you need extrasupport and being surrounded by
your friends and your familythat can physically be with you
can really help you to facereally hard court hearings,
conversations and some of whatyou may face.
(20:34):
So you may need a broader grouparound you and really seeking
those layers of support.
Brad Quillen (20:43):
And sometimes it's a family member going to
the court proceeding torepresent you or the family and
then be able to kind of comeback and share what happened.
Colleen Montague (20:53):
I like that.
Aaron, I think if you are goingto take part in those court
proceedings, it's important tolayer yourself with support
before, during and after.
And so having those peoplearound you that help you feel
more regulated, a little bitmore supported and secure.
And then what can you do before, during and after for yourself?
(21:14):
Taking walks, if there's abreak, going outside, getting
some fresh air, a little walkaround the block that is so
simple but really helpful tokind of re-regulate your nervous
system.
That is so simple but reallyhelpful to kind of re-regulate
your nervous system.
Doing jumping jacks as silly asthat might sound, it's a really
good release of energy out ofyour body Because when you're in
a courtroom you're having totap it all down right, contain
(21:37):
it all, but it needs to getexpressed at some point.
And then what are you going todo after, having that plan of
what can help you just to kindof unwind for the day?
Do you need to journal?
Do you need to do some activity, physical activity?
Do you need to connect and talkwith somebody?
Do you just need to sit downand watch a favorite show on the
(21:59):
TV that night?
Erin Nelson (22:01):
Yeah, something we've talked about something
really simple.
But at Jessica's house we justtalk about how you can't worry
and catch a ball and I know, atthe end of the day, lately in
our family we've just been likehaving like little pickleball
paddles and we've just beenvolleying back and forth.
But anything that you can do toget all of your concentration
(22:23):
on something at the end of theday can really help your brain
get into a different space andmove around.
And I love your ideas.
And you know we can't feel safeuntil we feel safe on the
sensory level, and so you knowit may be that you just pack
your favorite drink with you andyou have.
(22:43):
You know we've talked aboutweighted blankets that sometimes
people want to put over theirshoulders, and feeling safe on a
sensory level when you're goingthrough a traumatic loss is so
important.
There was that spice andsomething that got me into the
(23:05):
moment where I could actuallynot think about all the things
that were going on.
But I got to just have thislittle crunchy snack and it
really helped and, as silly asthat sounds, really finding what
you need on a sensory level.
To come back to your body, it'simportant to note as well.
Colleen Montague (23:26):
The court process takes a really long time
years years even, and you maynot be able to really fully
grieve during that time.
And we've talked about thatgolden hour and that need to be
in your grief.
But this is naturally going todelay it in a sense, because
(23:47):
there's so many other factors atplay, and so just know that you
may have to do a little catchup grieving after this.
There may not be opportunity toreally fully grieve in the ways
that you need to while you'realso being tied to all the court
proceedings, and that's if youhave that.
(24:08):
Maybe it's a cold case, maybeyou don't have answers, and
that's a whole nother level tothis as well.
It's hard to grieve when wedon't have the answers we want.
Brad Quillen (24:18):
There's a frustration that comes with some
of those cold cases that I'veheard over the years of.
You know, are they doing enough?
Why aren't they assigning a newdetective to all these things?
And then there's praise fordetectives and the authorities
and those things, and so it does.
It's like you're held untilsome of those things are solved.
And there's also the processand the court proceedings and
(24:40):
all those things.
But there's a reality of inthese deaths that it was at the
hands of someone else, couldhave been the homicide or the
cell of some sort of narcotic ordrug.
And so, aaron, how do we dealwith that rage?
Not only that we're feeling,but we have like another rage
(25:01):
for this person, and it'ssometimes as we were talking
about an unidentified person,because it's a cold case or we
don't know who the dealer was.
They could be walking amongstus in the town.
Erin Nelson (25:12):
Yeah, I know what we've talked about before is
really expressing the way youfeel it and so, as you're
feeling the energy of rage inyour body, finding ways to
express that, and people havetalked to us about just going on
a long run.
They've talked about kids.
Have you know, here atJessica's house we have a
(25:34):
volcano room and kids arehitting the walls and just
yelling and we've heard frompeople that just say I just have
to go scream in my car andgetting that, that rage, out of
your body.
I know music is something thatpeople have talked to us about,
where they need to listen to acertain kind of music that
(25:57):
really matches their rage andthen they can play that kind of
music, and so that is a verystrong feeling and so being able
to, as you feel it, you know,keep expressing it and just keep
going with that and findingoutlets to do that, and that
(26:18):
could be, I know martial artshas been mentioned.
Some people say yoga reallyhelps them and and just even we
have someone who talked aboutkickboxing, and so there are
just so many ways that you canget this.
Big muscles are rage or, youknow, usually a stored kind of
in those big muscles and sobeing able to use those.
(26:41):
And I think one part that wewill hear our families talk
about is sometimes they're in afaith community where they'll
jump to seeing things like ohyeah, you really need to forgive
and how we just want to caution, like premature forgiveness,
(27:01):
you know, and anything again youknow that can cause that shame
and to you know to really bewhere you are.
It's an organic process ofgoing through that and so
anytime we're prematurelyforgiving, it can just be more
(27:23):
about this kind of either, orthinking of like either it's
mercy or it's vengeance, right,and so kind of staying with the
and you know, and so what doesthat look like for you to be
wherever you are in your angertowards that person?
Brad Quillen (27:40):
Aaron, I'm glad you mentioned the rage piece
because we see that in kids hereat Jessica's house and we're
going to take a break here injust a moment but when we come
back we want to talk about someof those same feelings that kids
are feeling around some of thecomplexities of how the person
died.
Gary Shriver (27:54):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
Jessica's House provides freepeer support for children, teens
, young adults and theirfamilies grieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouseorg to download ourfree resources and be sure to
(28:16):
follow Jessica's House on socialmedia.
And if you have any questionsor topics you'd like us to
explore in a future episode,just send us an email at info at
jessicashouseorg.
Brad Quillen (28:30):
Well, welcome back from the break as we move
into talking about kiddos.
One of the things that I'vesaid over the years in parent
groups is that kids have allthese big emotions and we adults
as well have those big emotionsin our bodies as parents.
But the difference is the sizeand body.
The kiddos have these littlebodies that are trying to hold
(28:50):
all these big feelings, thesebig emotions.
But we as parents kind of havea little bit more understanding
some life under our feet, haveexperienced some different
scenarios, and so it's hard forthese little ones to be able to
express, tell you how they feel,use the right words that match
or mirror those emotions.
So what would you say toparents that are in the
(29:12):
complexities of how someone diedthat has little kids?
Colleen Montague (29:16):
Just as we talked about in the first part
about the feelings you may haveof shame and rage and fear.
Your kiddos have those as well,and you make such a good point,
brad.
They have these little bodiesand lack of life experience and
the inability to bring logic toit like we can as adults, and so
they really need your help, andthat starts with the
(29:39):
conversations that you're havingwith them and the words you're
using, how you explain about thedeath.
I know there's a temptation toprotect our children from the
truth when the truth feelsreally big and scary, but what
we've shared before is, whenkids don't know the answers,
they're going to try and fill inthe puzzle pieces themselves,
(30:01):
and filling in those gaps maynot be with the right
information, and so, as hard asit is, it's good to start those
conversations with them andshare how their person died.
If it was by suicide, explainingthat they made their own body
stop working and that it reallyis a mental illness, a sickness
(30:24):
in their brain that they wereliving with, which caused them
to harm their body in that way.
Or if it was by homicide whichcaused them to harm their body
in that way.
Or if it was by homicide,sharing that somebody else made
their body stop working.
And kids will ask follow-upquestions as they're ready.
So you won't have to have thewhole conversation that first
time likely.
(30:44):
But you will have revisits ofquestions over and over again as
they're trying to make sense ofit and, if they know, they can
come to you with thosewonderings, with those wishes.
Just like we encouraged you tofind somebody in your life,
that's what you get to be foryour kids as well in this season
.
Erin Nelson (31:03):
Yeah, and I was just thinking we've talked
before about sometimes a childwill ask questions and you
really don't even know theanswer to those questions and so
being able to just say I don'tknow, but I wish I knew.
And when I do, if I do learnmore about what happened or
whatever the question is, then Iwill share it with you and I
(31:25):
like what you're saying, colleen.
It's just they can come backand they can keep asking
questions and you can continuethat dialogue and they may even
have those questions, like we'veheard it at Jessica's house.
I think it was my fault somehow.
If I just wouldn't have donethis or said this, then this
(31:45):
person wouldn't have died.
And just to say there's nothingyou can do or not do to keep
someone alive and there'snothing that you did that could
cause somebody's body to stopworking.
But to be with them in thosequestions, to not just shut the
conversation down, but like it'snot your fault, just like
(32:08):
really quickly, but being ableto be present with them, them to
ask them just more about like,what else can you tell me about
that question that you're asking?
What else is it?
And just deepen that and letthem get it all out and just
continue that dialogue with them, because sometimes if they
don't feel comfortable voicingsome of that shame and guilt
(32:30):
that is just part of the griefprocess.
They may not come to you and Ithink for parents being that
person that they can come towith whatever they're thinking
about you being that safe personjust goes such a long way in
the family healing.
They're going to ask thequestions and there are going to
(32:51):
be people that answer thequestion that you don't want to
answer the question, and sokiddos need to hear that from
their parent yeah, from thattrusted parent and so much of
the time you know parent, youknow neighbors or cousins
relative piece yeah, that theymay know more than the child,
(33:14):
and so they don't want you don'twant them to hear it from the
neighbor, the cousin or thefriend who may have overheard
their parents talking, so beingable to tell them as much as you
can about what you know, aboutthe circumstances surrounding
the death.
Brad Quillen (33:30):
And we've learned from kids that this idea of
dosing.
And so parents, I'm just goingto tell you, we usually have way
more questions in our head thatwe think the kiddos are going
to ask than what they really do,and that speaks to this idea of
dosing.
Do you want to talk a bit aboutthe idea of dosing?
And kids come when they needthat answer.
Erin Nelson (33:52):
Yeah, and so dosing it's a funny word.
But when we think of dosing andkids come when they need that
answer and so dosing it's afunny word.
But when we think about dosingwe're kind of talking about like
when a doctor prescribesmedication and you know, they
never say like take this wholebottle and call me in the
morning, right, they're sayingjust take one every day and then
you know, over time this willhelp you get better and it'll
help fight this infection,whatever it is.
(34:13):
And that's kind of how weexperience our grief.
We could never absorb theenormity of the loss, we could
never absorb the finality of theloss all at one time when it
first happens and it's the samefor kids but they're actually
better at that than we are ofjust naturally dosing themselves
(34:35):
.
So you will notice as a parentthat the child might have a
question, but then they want togo play with their friends or
they want to go outside, ormaybe they want to watch a show,
and it's almost like they'renot really thinking about it
anymore at that time.
You don't think they are.
But then they come back andit's just that bits and pieces
kind of grieving that they'redoing, just it's that titration,
(34:59):
like they're encountering theirgrief, and then they're kind of
going back and so engaging andretreating and they're kind of
showing us the way.
In that.
Brad Quillen (35:10):
When your husband died, or your son at that time,
cody was three and he had a lotof conversations with you in
the sandbox and just that safeplace but playing, but also
having some of thoseconversations.
Sometimes that happens evenwith the kiddos here at
Jessica's house.
When they're talking to otherkids, they're playing amongst
each other.
Erin Nelson (35:30):
Definitely, and we see that I've been in the sand
room that we have here, we havetwo sand kind of boxes, but they
have, we have all thesedifferent figurines and um that
they can play out theirexperience.
Sometimes they recreate thefuneral and they're moving
pieces and we can kind of noticewe talk about um kind of sports
casting where we're just we'renot trying to analyze what
(35:52):
they're doing of sports casting,where we're just we're not
trying to analyze what they'redoing with their play, but we're
just noticing like they'removing a person from the right
to the left or they're puttingup a fence or they're getting an
animal and they're placing itin there and so just allowing
them to play it out.
To ask questions, you can justbe curious.
Brad Quillen (36:10):
And I think there's that openness here at
Jessica's house, where that'sit's what you do.
When you come here, you talkabout the person who's died and
the loved one, and but I alsohear in my parent groups that
there's sometimes with differentgenerations, we didn't speak
about it, the death happened andwe don't speak about it anymore
.
But we want parents to modelthat open environment and that
(36:33):
open conversation.
Colleen Montague (36:34):
Absolutely and by always being ready to talk
or ready to listen.
That's you modeling openness,right there, just always being
there for it and, like Aaronsaid, never shutting it down.
And so when they come to youwith those questions or when
they show you how they're reallydoing on the inside maybe with
big behaviors such as that rageor the worry, the fear, what we
(36:59):
talked about earlier fits heretoo, about how to take care of
their bodies and express thatout of their body.
And so get some ice, you know,from the freezer and go outside
with your kid and throw itagainst the ground or chuck it
against the fence.
Get that movement in your body,hear that thwacking and that
breaking of the ice.
(37:20):
You can get a pool noodlerelatively inexpensively and let
them hit the wall.
It's a really satisfying swag.
That's what it sounds like hereat Jessica's house when the
kids are hitting the inside ofthe volcano room with their pool
noodles.
But that's something your kidcan do as well.
The jumping jacks, the walking,running in place, little things
(37:43):
like that that you could dowith them also shows them how
that feels in their body, how ithelps get that energy out, and
teaches them things that theycan do when they need.
Brad Quillen (37:54):
And with those emotions.
There's an emotion that kidsoften feel, no matter how the
person died, and that's guilt.
And we hear that quite often ingroup and with kiddos here at
the house.
And can you speak to just thatfeeling that kiddos face with
guilt?
And we earlier we talked aboutshame and fear and rage, but
guilt's a part of it, Erin.
Erin Nelson (38:14):
I was just thinking about a child at Jessica's
house whose dad was the personwho committed the homicide and
he said you know, when peopletalk about my dad's like bad
choices, it makes me wonder ifI'm bad too.
(38:35):
And so sometimes just beingconnected to you know the person
that caused the homicide, andor you know somebody I know when
we're talking about our hopeafter over accidental overdose
group and so some of those, justthose feelings of shame, and I
(38:56):
think what we're hoping for isbeing able to connect kids with
others who have a similar story.
So really reaching out to maybesomething that you might have
in your community that canconnect kids together and where
they know they're not the onlyone with a similar you know,
with what happened and beinghonest even with the school
(39:33):
administrators of however theperson died, even if it was
complex with suicide or homicide, and just to say you know what,
it's okay, we like to talkopenly about it in our family
and it's okay for and you know,you can prep your child for
questions that people might askthem.
Brad Quillen (39:54):
Well, that's what I was going to ask you about
was it hurts us when we hearthose things, that kids get
asked questions that arecondescending, just as you were
sharing about that little boy.
That am I going to be bad to ormake bad decisions?
That we have to prepare ourkids that there are some that
don't know what they're talkingabout and have heard things that
(40:14):
aren't true about how theperson died.
That then get placed on ourkiddos and so we, as parents,
have to prepare our kids to hearsome of those things.
Erin Nelson (40:23):
Yeah, being able to say like you know, some people
are very curious about howsomeone died and they may ask
you questions and you get todecide what questions, if any,
you want to answer and to givethem that and prepare them in
that way.
Colleen Montague (40:39):
Yeah, having a script can help us all feel a
little bit more prepared forthose conversations, because we
don't always know when thoseconversations are happening.
But having that prepared scriptso that you know how you're
going to answer and you mighthave a couple different ways to
answer If you feel like talkingabout it, you have one script,
(41:00):
and if that is not a safe person, you don't want to talk to them
about it, you have anotheranswer.
Yeah, my daddy died, and thenyou could just leave it at that.
Brad Quillen (41:08):
And those of you that are listening, new parents,
that you're wondering.
Well, what do I tell them?
You are more than welcome toreach out to Jessica's House and
for us to give you ideas aboutthat, and on our website there's
a number of resources aboutthat of how do you explain a
death, of a homicide or asuicide to kiddos.
But some of those script ideasyou can always reach out to us
(41:29):
at info at Jessica's House dotorg for more resources as well
If you ever have questions abouthow to do that.
So, Colleen, I wanted to askyou.
There's an activity that we useat Jessica's house that talks
about the iceberg and the natureand the reality of too much
pressure on the top of theiceberg can flip it over right,
but there's some other pressuresthat kiddos sometimes feel with
(41:49):
a homicide or suicide death,and would you talk a little bit
about that?
But then we also want to endwith sharing about the iceberg
activity that parents can dowith their kiddos at home.
Colleen Montague (41:58):
Yeah, so after a death by homicide, it would
be so understandable if yourchild was worried about more
violence happening to yourfamily or to themselves.
They may also have feelings ofjust anger towards the person
who brought harm to their lovedone and they may want to harm
them back, and those can bereally scary thoughts to hear as
(42:22):
a parent, if your child'sexpressing those to you.
But those are how they'refeeling.
That's the worries they'reholding inside of them and so,
coming alongside them and Aaronand I have talked about you
can't stop a feeling or youcan't take it from them.
A feeling is theirs, so you canbe there with them in it and
(42:42):
ask them those questions to helpthem understand it better.
But then you can also bringlogic to it at the end, and so
instead of just saying no, thatwill never happen to our family
again, you're safe, you're finebeing there for their questions,
but then you can finish it upwith.
What happened to your dad waspretty rare and I'm doing
(43:03):
everything I can to keep you andthe rest of our family safe and
just reminding them that youmay have to say that a number of
times over the course of theirlifetime as they're curious
about that or worried, and sothat kind of brings us into our
final part of this episode is ofan activity you can do with
your child.
We've talked a lot abouttalking with your kids, but the
(43:26):
reality is sometimes kids don'thave words, and so engaging in
an activity together might be abetter flow.
And so, thinking about aniceberg, if you can get a piece
of paper out and draw an iceberg, only a little bit of it is
visible above the surface of thewater, but there's much more
going on underneath the surfaceof the water.
(43:48):
So break your iceberg intothree parts.
You're going to have the partthat is exposed above the
surface and then you'll have twodifferent parts segmented below
the water.
And the idea behind thisactivity is we show the world
only so much of how we'reactually doing, and we are
choosing that, you know.
(44:08):
Are we putting a happy face on?
Are we positive?
Maybe we are having a hard dayand we do show the world that
we're having a rough moment, butthere's always so much more
going on underneath the surface.
And so talking to your kidsabout that, you know, we get a
choice in what we show others aswell as what we hold inside,
(44:29):
and so the idea is that wechoose what we show the world,
but there's a lot of pressurethat comes from the outside
world onto us, and if we're nottaking care of ourselves on the
outside and the inside, thenwe're at risk of flipping In
nature.
There's actually a video onlinewhere there were two men ice
(44:50):
spelunking on an iceberg and itactually was just enough added
pressure to cause the iceberg toflip, and so it broke off and
it flipped over, and when such abig piece of ice hits the water
, it causes a tidal wave, and Ijust feel like that's such a
(45:11):
perfect example of us as humansand kids.
When we flip, a tidal waveensues, and those are those
behaviors that may befrustrating for others.
Those are those behaviors inour kids that might be hard or
big you know fits or rage ortantrums, maybe older kids
(45:32):
yelling stuff at us, you knowslamming doors but those are
little tidal waves happeningwhen there's been too much
pressure on the outside.
So the idea is, how can we tendto what's underneath along with
the parts of us that areshowing up to the world?
So could we bring some of thosethings from the underneath,
from the below the surface, tothe surface, which could look
(45:54):
like not holding it alone,reaching out with somebody else
and asking them to hold italongside us.
Brad Quillen (45:59):
Thank you so much , Erin and Colleen, for this
today, because this is a hardtopic, but it's a topic we've
got to talk about in the worldof grief.
Those of you listening.
If you need more resources,you're always able to find those
at jessicashouseorg, and if youhave any questions or even
ideas for another show topic,reach out to us at info at
(46:20):
jessicashouseorg.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of when
Grief Comes Home, when we'll bediscussing the death of your
partner and the social changesthat follow.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (46:33):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouseorg to download ourfree resources and be sure to
(46:54):
follow Jessica's House on socialmedia, and if you have any
questions or topics you'd likefor us to explore in future
episodes, just send us an emailto jessicashouseorg.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time, for
when Grief Comes Home.
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at.
Colleen Montague (00:13):
Jessica's House.
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague,program director for Jessica's
House and a licensed marriageand family therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of when
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
Now through this podcast, they'll share grief
resources and coping skills,heartfelt stories and insights
to support parents as they raisechildren who are grieving
Together.
Brad Quillen (00:42):
you'll find strength as we learn to live
with loss and find ways to heal.
Well, hello, hello everybody.
It is Brad from Jessica's House, and today we're going to be
talking about the circumstancesaround the death.
The grieving process carriesmany complex emotions and these
can be intensified and magnifiedbased on how a person dies,
especially when it involves adeath from a homicide, a suicide
(01:04):
or an overdose.
Well, hey, aaron, I know somethat are listening.
As soon as they hear that intro, their palms start to sweat.
They might have a pit in theirstomach.
The nerves have come outbecause the reality of how some
people die brings up layers ofcomplexities.
And even in your own storythat's a piece of your story
(01:24):
with your mom and how she died,and you and I were talking a
little bit ago that some peoplemight need to pause and take a
break from this episode, becausethey know what it's about.
But come back to it.
And there were days in your lifewhere you need to take a pause
and then come back because ofhow your mom died, and I'll let
you share a bit about that.
Erin Nelson (01:41):
Yeah, so um with my story and how Tyler died in an
accident and then a few monthslater my mom, who lived with
bipolar disorder, did her thirdattempt at suicide, um, with an
overdose, and she did that inJanuary.
(02:01):
Tyler died in June.
In January she overdosed andthen she was in a coma for three
months and died in March.
And so with her living with hermental illness and just how she
went up and down a lot and evenother attempts at suicide and
(02:26):
even other attempts at suicide,she always was able to come
through it and get better for alittle while and stabilize, I
should say really for a littlewhile.
And so when she died, I wasjust really surprised that it
happened and there was so muchfragility because we're coming
off of, you know, just ninemonths or so after Tyler died.
(02:49):
So the complexity and some ofour listeners may have this in
their own story of more than onedeath at a time, and so all of
that just really matters.
And we talk about death and wetalk about trauma with a loss
and when you have a death thatreally overwhelms your capacity
(03:11):
to find what you need to feelsafe.
That is something that we'rekind of introducing, that trauma
, feeling of like feeling justoverwhelmed by feeling unsafe
and powerless, and so much ofwhat happened at that time for
(03:31):
me.
Brad Quillen (03:32):
I had a lot of reactions that were trauma
related and so I think I neededa lot of extra care and that
added a lot of layers ofcomplexity in my grief, and
there's complexities, because itcould have been a car crash, it
could be homicide, it could bean illness, that, as you said,
(03:53):
that there's a death, that therelationship was fractured and
then the accident happens right,and so there's all those
complexities that come into it.
But sometimes with the homicide, suicide, overdose, those are
just more natural with some ofthe complexities that come into
it.
And I just kind of dawned on methat, knowing your story and
we've talked about this beforebut you have the suicide piece,
(04:16):
but it's from overdose and soit's kind of like a magnifier.
Erin Nelson (04:19):
Yeah, definitely, and I think the complexity in
the relationship and I know wehear this at Jessica's house,
there were so many complex partsof relationships before the
person died and sometimes you'regrieving what you wish could
have happened stabilize and shewould find just some type of
healing and something that couldhelp her through this better.
(04:50):
And you know it was really.
It was hard to accept and Ithink that especially with the
child relationship with a mom,there's also a part of rejection
that you can feel like was Inot enough to keep you here?
And you know, as we went on andwe got to learn about um a
(05:12):
suicide, and how you know,people want to be out of pain.
They don't want to leave theirloved ones but they do want to
be out of pain.
And so as I learned more aboutkind of um, just suicidality,
and some of just the researchthat's gone in to suicide, and
learning more about grieversafter a suicide, I started to
(05:36):
understand it a little bit more.
I don't know if it makes iteasier, but it helps to
integrate the loss in ahealthier way.
Brad Quillen (05:47):
Yeah, and I know you've talked about this before,
cause, colleen, I'm going to wewant to talk about the
isolation component.
But even between the way Tylerdied with a plane crash, you
know, and then a number ofmonths later your mom dies from
suicide, people treated youdifferent in the grocery store
around town.
You know at work all thesedifferent things right, and so
can you speak to that for asecond in your own life?
(06:08):
Because we want to address thisissue of isolation.
Grief feels isolating enough,and then sometimes, in the
circumstances of how the persondies, it's felt even more by
people.
Erin Nelson (06:20):
I'm surprised, I think, at the shame you can feel
, no matter how someone dies,Correct, Because there's
something that you just thinkmaybe if this person died
there's something I did to causeit, or there's just some shame,
like this thing happened to me.
But I do believe that withTyler's accident because it was,
(06:43):
you know, the plane crashed anda clear blue sky and you know
it was an accident and so butwith the suicide and when you
talk about like in the grocerystore and seeing people, I think
there's just, especiallybecause this was so many years
ago, that there there wasn't anunderstanding.
I think now, like with somecelebrity deaths and some more
(07:06):
understanding about mentalhealth, and I think that we're
making some progress andunderstanding a little bit more
about suicide and mental illness, but with you know, at that
time I don't think people knewwhat to do, and so with Tyler's
accident it was just like oh,we're here to support you, but
(07:27):
with my mom's suicide, I don'tthink people had the words or
knew how to just surround us thesame way they did with Tyler's
death, and so I definitely felta lot of shame and I don't think
I could talk as openly about mymom's death as I did with
(07:49):
Tyler's.
Brad Quillen (07:51):
Yeah, and you spent a couple of minutes here
talking about shame, but I'mgoing to throw the word guilt in
there because I think in someof these scenarios that guilt's
a very close cousin to the shamefeeling with the how someone
died of I didn't see why, didn'tI?
I wish I wouldn't have saidlike there's all these other
(08:12):
things, and sometimes it's therelationships fractured and
there's boundaries drawn withgood reason, but after the death
it's there's a guilt of I drewa boundary, or I needed to keep
safety in the home, or I had toget myself to a healthy place
and move away from that, andthat plays into it as well.
Erin Nelson (08:34):
Absolutely.
I think when we're talkingabout these complex deaths,
there is always guilt.
I think it is part of the griefprocess, but you can feel more
guilt and even some shame.
So yeah, I think with thesecomplex deaths there's so much
that you wanted to do to changethe circumstance and you just
(08:56):
have no control over that, andthat's kind of where that trauma
piece comes in.
Brad Quillen (09:01):
Mama, peace comes in, and we've been talking
about shame and guilt, but Iknow isolation is in the middle
of all that as well and, colleen, we spoke a little bit ago
about just some of thoseisolating feelings that people
have in the midst of how someonedies and the complexities that
are around a death.
Can you share a little bitabout what we were talking about
earlier with that?
Colleen Montague (09:21):
We've shared before how kids especially think
they're the only ones that haveexperienced the loss or the
death of somebody in their life.
And when it is by suicide orhomicide or overdose, those are
tend to be stigmatized types oflosses and what we have heard
(09:42):
from our families over the yearsis, instead of the support
leaning in, they've felt supportkind of leaning out, and for so
many different reasons.
You know it can be that theydon't know how to support you.
They may have their ownopinions or judgments,
unfortunately, about thecircumstances.
(10:02):
They may assume that you're notas shaken up, Maybe you're not
as surprised that the persondied.
Maybe they assume you thoughtit was coming depending on the
lifestyle that that your lovedone had.
And I think it's important tosay that we must always honor
(10:24):
the magnitude of the loss, nomatter the way that it happened.
Brad Quillen (10:29):
And in those seasons and what you're speaking
of, there's some dual emotions,like there's moments of highs
and there's moments of lows.
It's hard to celebrate becauseof what's happening.
Can you speak to just kind ofthe conflicting emotions even?
Colleen Montague (10:46):
Yes, even that emotion of relief.
You know, if your personstruggled with mental illness or
with addiction and you werealways worried about them and
now you know where they are.
Now you know that they're nolonger in that pain, you may
(11:08):
feel some relief for them, butthen you might feel awful for
feeling relief.
But it's just a naturalresponse.
Everybody's relationship withtheir person is so unique,
there's so much complexity anduniqueness.
I'll just say it again itdoesn't mirror anybody else's
(11:28):
loss Exactly.
Erin Nelson (11:31):
Yeah, I was just thinking about when you said you
know, it's different foreverybody, just even inside of a
family, and I know that withfamilies here at Jessica's house
, just when we're talking aboutlike openly talk, you know,
seeing how the person died, eachperson may feel differently
about how to communicate that.
(11:53):
You know, communicate how theperson died.
And so just knowing that weheard when dad said you know, I
feel like there's a lot ofdenial in our family about, you
know, how the person died.
There's a lot of denial in ourfamily about how the person died
and so some of the people don'twant to actually say it or
accept it.
They want to say it wassomething else and just being
(12:18):
able to honor each person's way.
And I know at Jessica's houseeven sometimes it's just hard to
say it and so we want to alwayshonor the parents who come in
and what they're seeing todayabout how the person died.
And as they learn to feel safe,they learn that they're
embraced for who they are, howthe person died, that we're
(12:41):
countering the stigma If it is astigmatized loss, so much of
the time they start to feelsafer and they can talk more
openly and that's such animportant part of healing.
Brad Quillen (12:52):
I'm so glad you said that because when I sit in
groups with homicide, suicideand overdose, when they find
that comfort and thattrustability around the circle
that others are walking through,that are in that same season
that they're in, there's achance for them to start asking
the rest of the group, but evenfor giving themselves permission
to ask the why and the what ifquestions.
(13:15):
What do you say to those peoplethat are in the middle of the
whys and the what ifs?
Erin Nelson (13:21):
I would say you just have to be there because
there's so much mystery.
You know we say aroundJessica's house that mysteries
are meant to be pondered and notexplained.
And it's really pondering.
That's part of the griefprocess.
It's being able to sit in thewhy and what ifs and know that
(13:42):
you may never have the answers.
But it's okay to ask all thequestions.
You can say it a million times,just keep asking and you need
someone to sit right next to youand ask those questions.
You're asking why, maybe to God.
You're wondering why you?
Why did this happen?
Why couldn't they get better?
(14:02):
Why was there no healing?
And there's just so much aroundthat and just it's not how you
imagined your life would be.
Colleen Montague (14:12):
And to your earlier point, erin, if you were
in a family that has thedifferences of how we're going
to talk about it or not talkabout it and you don't have a
peer support group near you andyou don't have a peer support
group near you, find thosepeople in your life that you can
be real with.
Do you have a friend, do youhave a coworker or another
(14:32):
family member who is willing togo into that space with you to
just talk really openly aboutthe death and ask those
wondering questions?
Erin Nelson (14:46):
those wondering questions.
Yeah, and I I'm just thinkingalong those lines that sometimes
even some religious communitiesmay not feel comfortable
talking about it, or maybe Iknow there's this thought, um,
even from I think it's gettingbetter in faith communities, but
just that, maybe if the persondied of suicide that they don't
go to heaven.
And I'll never forget a parentfrom Jessica's house who said
(15:13):
you know, if my son showed up toThanksgiving a day early, you
know what would I say?
You know, and you know Iwouldn't close the door in their
face.
I would just say welcome in,you know.
And and so just to know thatnot every community embraces the
truth about mental health andhas a good, broad understanding
(15:36):
of why suicide can happen, andand so just being able to find
some well-researched communitiesthat really understand about a
little bit more about mentalillness and how it affects you,
and so that you can feel thatsupport and that you don't feel
that stigma and shame.
Brad Quillen (15:58):
And we've talked about this before, and I just
want to reiterate that there arepeople that, in the midst of
this, you think are going to bethere for you and aren't.
And then there's people thatare going to show up that you
never would have expected, andso you've got to find those
people and those communities andthose places that you can go
and have some of those hardconversations and be able to say
(16:18):
I wonder what, how could they?
And that, that, that, thatright, right and so.
But I, if, if you're feeling,as you listen to this, that I
thought so and so was going tobe there with me through this, a
family member or a close friendor someone, and they're not,
that's somewhat normal and wehear that often.
Erin Nelson (16:36):
Yes, it's.
It's hard to find those who youcan just speak so freely and
just be yourself and be whereyou are in the process, and but
you know, just keep seeking them.
Brad Quillen (16:49):
And you don't know who they are until you're
there.
Erin Nelson (16:51):
Right, and they may change too.
Brad Quillen (16:53):
Very true, hey, erin and Colleen, speaking of
some of those those topics, Iknow with homicide there's a
number of things that are arehard with that and suicide and
overdose.
But I just want to take aminute to those that are living
the reality of a homicide, deathand just some of those pieces
that come into play with thecourt procedures.
(17:15):
And families have said to ushere that our case is cold and
all those things.
Just some of those otheremotions that come in and DAs
and police and those things.
Those are hard topics.
You need a place to be able totalk about that with someone
else that's walked through itand that's a great piece of
Jessica's house.
Those families get to do thathere.
But if someone's wrestling withthat, what would you say to
(17:37):
them?
Erin Nelson (17:37):
in some of those instances, yeah, I think you
know, when we're facilitatinggroups with families affected by
homicide, I think one emotionthat I think comes up so much is
rage, you know, just at theperpetrator and what it's stolen
(17:58):
from their family, just theenergy, the investigations and
ongoing trials and what it isstealing from your family and
your you, and how you'reconstantly having to revisit
what happened and even withprobation that comes up or you
(18:20):
know any, any court proceedings,and so there's so much, there,
there's so much, and so there'sso much, there, there's so much.
You know, many times there aregraphic details and it feels so
(18:40):
acute because it was done tosomeone you knew so well of that
.
And finding safety in your body, as you have images and we've
talked about this before of justreally finding safety and
finding what you need to thatnext moment of just feeling that
safety.
Brad Quillen (18:59):
And there's if you're listening and you've had
a death by homicide, there's areality of going to.
If you go to court, you'regoing to learn things that you
never knew and see things inpreliminary hearings and then
the actual case that, as youspeak to, that's what happened
and and you have to decide ifyou want to hear that if you're
(19:21):
able to hear that and see that.
Erin Nelson (19:23):
Yeah, and I think again, just like with suicide we
talked about each family member, you know, doing it differently
and giving, just honoring eachperson's way of doing it,
knowing that one person mightwant to go to the court, another
person may not, and just accept, you know, accepting each
other's way of grieving and alsoeach person's way of going
(19:47):
forward.
And I think with the fragilityof grief you may feel
differently all the time.
And what we talk about atJessica's house is something
called co-regulation and itreally is about finding safety
when you're with another personthat can support you.
So realizing that when you'regoing through a complex loss
(20:11):
like homicide, you need extrasupport and being surrounded by
your friends and your familythat can physically be with you
can really help you to facereally hard court hearings,
conversations and some of whatyou may face.
(20:34):
So you may need a broader grouparound you and really seeking
those layers of support.
Brad Quillen (20:43):
And sometimes it's a family member going to
the court proceeding torepresent you or the family and
then be able to kind of comeback and share what happened.
Colleen Montague (20:53):
I like that.
Aaron, I think if you are goingto take part in those court
proceedings, it's important tolayer yourself with support
before, during and after.
And so having those peoplearound you that help you feel
more regulated, a little bitmore supported and secure.
And then what can you do before, during and after for yourself?
(21:14):
Taking walks, if there's abreak, going outside, getting
some fresh air, a little walkaround the block that is so
simple but really helpful tokind of re-regulate your nervous
system.
That is so simple but reallyhelpful to kind of re-regulate
your nervous system.
Doing jumping jacks as silly asthat might sound, it's a really
good release of energy out ofyour body Because when you're in
a courtroom you're having totap it all down right, contain
(21:37):
it all, but it needs to getexpressed at some point.
And then what are you going todo after, having that plan of
what can help you just to kindof unwind for the day?
Do you need to journal?
Do you need to do some activity, physical activity?
Do you need to connect and talkwith somebody?
Do you just need to sit downand watch a favorite show on the
(21:59):
TV that night?
Erin Nelson (22:01):
Yeah, something we've talked about something
really simple.
But at Jessica's house we justtalk about how you can't worry
and catch a ball and I know, atthe end of the day, lately in
our family we've just been likehaving like little pickleball
paddles and we've just beenvolleying back and forth.
But anything that you can do toget all of your concentration
(22:23):
on something at the end of theday can really help your brain
get into a different space andmove around.
And I love your ideas.
And you know we can't feel safeuntil we feel safe on the
sensory level, and so you knowit may be that you just pack
your favorite drink with you andyou have.
(22:43):
You know we've talked aboutweighted blankets that sometimes
people want to put over theirshoulders, and feeling safe on a
sensory level when you're goingthrough a traumatic loss is so
important.
There was that spice andsomething that got me into the
(23:05):
moment where I could actuallynot think about all the things
that were going on.
But I got to just have thislittle crunchy snack and it
really helped and, as silly asthat sounds, really finding what
you need on a sensory level.
To come back to your body, it'simportant to note as well.
Colleen Montague (23:26):
The court process takes a really long time
years years even, and you maynot be able to really fully
grieve during that time.
And we've talked about thatgolden hour and that need to be
in your grief.
But this is naturally going todelay it in a sense, because
(23:47):
there's so many other factors atplay, and so just know that you
may have to do a little catchup grieving after this.
There may not be opportunity toreally fully grieve in the ways
that you need to while you'realso being tied to all the court
proceedings, and that's if youhave that.
(24:08):
Maybe it's a cold case, maybeyou don't have answers, and
that's a whole nother level tothis as well.
It's hard to grieve when wedon't have the answers we want.
Brad Quillen (24:18):
There's a frustration that comes with some
of those cold cases that I'veheard over the years of.
You know, are they doing enough?
Why aren't they assigning a newdetective to all these things?
And then there's praise fordetectives and the authorities
and those things, and so it does.
It's like you're held untilsome of those things are solved.
And there's also the processand the court proceedings and
(24:40):
all those things.
But there's a reality of inthese deaths that it was at the
hands of someone else, couldhave been the homicide or the
cell of some sort of narcotic ordrug.
And so, aaron, how do we dealwith that rage?
Not only that we're feeling,but we have like another rage
(25:01):
for this person, and it'ssometimes as we were talking
about an unidentified person,because it's a cold case or we
don't know who the dealer was.
They could be walking amongstus in the town.
Erin Nelson (25:12):
Yeah, I know what we've talked about before is
really expressing the way youfeel it and so, as you're
feeling the energy of rage inyour body, finding ways to
express that, and people havetalked to us about just going on
a long run.
They've talked about kids.
Have you know, here atJessica's house we have a
(25:34):
volcano room and kids arehitting the walls and just
yelling and we've heard frompeople that just say I just have
to go scream in my car andgetting that, that rage, out of
your body.
I know music is something thatpeople have talked to us about,
where they need to listen to acertain kind of music that
(25:57):
really matches their rage andthen they can play that kind of
music, and so that is a verystrong feeling and so being able
to, as you feel it, you know,keep expressing it and just keep
going with that and findingoutlets to do that, and that
(26:18):
could be, I know martial artshas been mentioned.
Some people say yoga reallyhelps them and and just even we
have someone who talked aboutkickboxing, and so there are
just so many ways that you canget this.
Big muscles are rage or, youknow, usually a stored kind of
in those big muscles and sobeing able to use those.
(26:41):
And I think one part that wewill hear our families talk
about is sometimes they're in afaith community where they'll
jump to seeing things like ohyeah, you really need to forgive
and how we just want to caution, like premature forgiveness,
(27:01):
you know, and anything again youknow that can cause that shame
and to you know to really bewhere you are.
It's an organic process ofgoing through that and so
anytime we're prematurelyforgiving, it can just be more
(27:23):
about this kind of either, orthinking of like either it's
mercy or it's vengeance, right,and so kind of staying with the
and you know, and so what doesthat look like for you to be
wherever you are in your angertowards that person?
Brad Quillen (27:40):
Aaron, I'm glad you mentioned the rage piece
because we see that in kids hereat Jessica's house and we're
going to take a break here injust a moment but when we come
back we want to talk about someof those same feelings that kids
are feeling around some of thecomplexities of how the person
died.
Gary Shriver (27:54):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
Jessica's House provides freepeer support for children, teens
, young adults and theirfamilies grieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouseorg to download ourfree resources and be sure to
(28:16):
follow Jessica's House on socialmedia.
And if you have any questionsor topics you'd like us to
explore in a future episode,just send us an email at info at
jessicashouseorg.
Brad Quillen (28:30):
Well, welcome back from the break as we move
into talking about kiddos.
One of the things that I'vesaid over the years in parent
groups is that kids have allthese big emotions and we adults
as well have those big emotionsin our bodies as parents.
But the difference is the sizeand body.
The kiddos have these littlebodies that are trying to hold
(28:50):
all these big feelings, thesebig emotions.
But we as parents kind of havea little bit more understanding
some life under our feet, haveexperienced some different
scenarios, and so it's hard forthese little ones to be able to
express, tell you how they feel,use the right words that match
or mirror those emotions.
So what would you say toparents that are in the
(29:12):
complexities of how someone diedthat has little kids?
Colleen Montague (29:16):
Just as we talked about in the first part
about the feelings you may haveof shame and rage and fear.
Your kiddos have those as well,and you make such a good point,
brad.
They have these little bodiesand lack of life experience and
the inability to bring logic toit like we can as adults, and so
they really need your help, andthat starts with the
(29:39):
conversations that you're havingwith them and the words you're
using, how you explain about thedeath.
I know there's a temptation toprotect our children from the
truth when the truth feelsreally big and scary, but what
we've shared before is, whenkids don't know the answers,
they're going to try and fill inthe puzzle pieces themselves,
(30:01):
and filling in those gaps maynot be with the right
information, and so, as hard asit is, it's good to start those
conversations with them andshare how their person died.
If it was by suicide, explainingthat they made their own body
stop working and that it reallyis a mental illness, a sickness
(30:24):
in their brain that they wereliving with, which caused them
to harm their body in that way.
Or if it was by homicide whichcaused them to harm their body
in that way.
Or if it was by homicide,sharing that somebody else made
their body stop working.
And kids will ask follow-upquestions as they're ready.
So you won't have to have thewhole conversation that first
time likely.
(30:44):
But you will have revisits ofquestions over and over again as
they're trying to make sense ofit and, if they know, they can
come to you with thosewonderings, with those wishes.
Just like we encouraged you tofind somebody in your life,
that's what you get to be foryour kids as well in this season
.
Erin Nelson (31:03):
Yeah, and I was just thinking we've talked
before about sometimes a childwill ask questions and you
really don't even know theanswer to those questions and so
being able to just say I don'tknow, but I wish I knew.
And when I do, if I do learnmore about what happened or
whatever the question is, then Iwill share it with you and I
(31:25):
like what you're saying, colleen.
It's just they can come backand they can keep asking
questions and you can continuethat dialogue and they may even
have those questions, like we'veheard it at Jessica's house.
I think it was my fault somehow.
If I just wouldn't have donethis or said this, then this
(31:45):
person wouldn't have died.
And just to say there's nothingyou can do or not do to keep
someone alive and there'snothing that you did that could
cause somebody's body to stopworking.
But to be with them in thosequestions, to not just shut the
conversation down, but like it'snot your fault, just like
(32:08):
really quickly, but being ableto be present with them, them to
ask them just more about like,what else can you tell me about
that question that you're asking?
What else is it?
And just deepen that and letthem get it all out and just
continue that dialogue with them, because sometimes if they
don't feel comfortable voicingsome of that shame and guilt
(32:30):
that is just part of the griefprocess.
They may not come to you and Ithink for parents being that
person that they can come towith whatever they're thinking
about you being that safe personjust goes such a long way in
the family healing.
They're going to ask thequestions and there are going to
(32:51):
be people that answer thequestion that you don't want to
answer the question, and sokiddos need to hear that from
their parent yeah, from thattrusted parent and so much of
the time you know parent, youknow neighbors or cousins
relative piece yeah, that theymay know more than the child,
(33:14):
and so they don't want you don'twant them to hear it from the
neighbor, the cousin or thefriend who may have overheard
their parents talking, so beingable to tell them as much as you
can about what you know, aboutthe circumstances surrounding
the death.
Brad Quillen (33:30):
And we've learned from kids that this idea of
dosing.
And so parents, I'm just goingto tell you, we usually have way
more questions in our head thatwe think the kiddos are going
to ask than what they really do,and that speaks to this idea of
dosing.
Do you want to talk a bit aboutthe idea of dosing?
And kids come when they needthat answer.
Erin Nelson (33:52):
Yeah, and so dosing it's a funny word.
But when we think of dosing andkids come when they need that
answer and so dosing it's afunny word.
But when we think about dosingwe're kind of talking about like
when a doctor prescribesmedication and you know, they
never say like take this wholebottle and call me in the
morning, right, they're sayingjust take one every day and then
you know, over time this willhelp you get better and it'll
help fight this infection,whatever it is.
(34:13):
And that's kind of how weexperience our grief.
We could never absorb theenormity of the loss, we could
never absorb the finality of theloss all at one time when it
first happens and it's the samefor kids but they're actually
better at that than we are ofjust naturally dosing themselves
(34:35):
.
So you will notice as a parentthat the child might have a
question, but then they want togo play with their friends or
they want to go outside, ormaybe they want to watch a show,
and it's almost like they'renot really thinking about it
anymore at that time.
You don't think they are.
But then they come back andit's just that bits and pieces
kind of grieving that they'redoing, just it's that titration,
(34:59):
like they're encountering theirgrief, and then they're kind of
going back and so engaging andretreating and they're kind of
showing us the way.
In that.
Brad Quillen (35:10):
When your husband died, or your son at that time,
cody was three and he had a lotof conversations with you in
the sandbox and just that safeplace but playing, but also
having some of thoseconversations.
Sometimes that happens evenwith the kiddos here at
Jessica's house.
When they're talking to otherkids, they're playing amongst
each other.
Erin Nelson (35:30):
Definitely, and we see that I've been in the sand
room that we have here, we havetwo sand kind of boxes, but they
have, we have all thesedifferent figurines and um that
they can play out theirexperience.
Sometimes they recreate thefuneral and they're moving
pieces and we can kind of noticewe talk about um kind of sports
casting where we're just we'renot trying to analyze what
(35:52):
they're doing of sports casting,where we're just we're not
trying to analyze what they'redoing with their play, but we're
just noticing like they'removing a person from the right
to the left or they're puttingup a fence or they're getting an
animal and they're placing itin there and so just allowing
them to play it out.
To ask questions, you can justbe curious.
Brad Quillen (36:10):
And I think there's that openness here at
Jessica's house, where that'sit's what you do.
When you come here, you talkabout the person who's died and
the loved one, and but I alsohear in my parent groups that
there's sometimes with differentgenerations, we didn't speak
about it, the death happened andwe don't speak about it anymore
.
But we want parents to modelthat open environment and that
(36:33):
open conversation.
Colleen Montague (36:34):
Absolutely and by always being ready to talk
or ready to listen.
That's you modeling openness,right there, just always being
there for it and, like Aaronsaid, never shutting it down.
And so when they come to youwith those questions or when
they show you how they're reallydoing on the inside maybe with
big behaviors such as that rageor the worry, the fear, what we
(36:59):
talked about earlier fits heretoo, about how to take care of
their bodies and express thatout of their body.
And so get some ice, you know,from the freezer and go outside
with your kid and throw itagainst the ground or chuck it
against the fence.
Get that movement in your body,hear that thwacking and that
breaking of the ice.
(37:20):
You can get a pool noodlerelatively inexpensively and let
them hit the wall.
It's a really satisfying swag.
That's what it sounds like hereat Jessica's house when the
kids are hitting the inside ofthe volcano room with their pool
noodles.
But that's something your kidcan do as well.
The jumping jacks, the walking,running in place, little things
(37:43):
like that that you could dowith them also shows them how
that feels in their body, how ithelps get that energy out, and
teaches them things that theycan do when they need.
Brad Quillen (37:54):
And with those emotions.
There's an emotion that kidsoften feel, no matter how the
person died, and that's guilt.
And we hear that quite often ingroup and with kiddos here at
the house.
And can you speak to just thatfeeling that kiddos face with
guilt?
And we earlier we talked aboutshame and fear and rage, but
guilt's a part of it, Erin.
Erin Nelson (38:14):
I was just thinking about a child at Jessica's
house whose dad was the personwho committed the homicide and
he said you know, when peopletalk about my dad's like bad
choices, it makes me wonder ifI'm bad too.
(38:35):
And so sometimes just beingconnected to you know the person
that caused the homicide, andor you know somebody I know when
we're talking about our hopeafter over accidental overdose
group and so some of those, justthose feelings of shame, and I
(38:56):
think what we're hoping for isbeing able to connect kids with
others who have a similar story.
So really reaching out to maybesomething that you might have
in your community that canconnect kids together and where
they know they're not the onlyone with a similar you know,
with what happened and beinghonest even with the school
(39:33):
administrators of however theperson died, even if it was
complex with suicide or homicide, and just to say you know what,
it's okay, we like to talkopenly about it in our family
and it's okay for and you know,you can prep your child for
questions that people might askthem.
Brad Quillen (39:54):
Well, that's what I was going to ask you about
was it hurts us when we hearthose things, that kids get
asked questions that arecondescending, just as you were
sharing about that little boy.
That am I going to be bad to ormake bad decisions?
That we have to prepare ourkids that there are some that
don't know what they're talkingabout and have heard things that
(40:14):
aren't true about how theperson died.
That then get placed on ourkiddos and so we, as parents,
have to prepare our kids to hearsome of those things.
Erin Nelson (40:23):
Yeah, being able to say like you know, some people
are very curious about howsomeone died and they may ask
you questions and you get todecide what questions, if any,
you want to answer and to givethem that and prepare them in
that way.
Colleen Montague (40:39):
Yeah, having a script can help us all feel a
little bit more prepared forthose conversations, because we
don't always know when thoseconversations are happening.
But having that prepared scriptso that you know how you're
going to answer and you mighthave a couple different ways to
answer If you feel like talkingabout it, you have one script,
(41:00):
and if that is not a safe person, you don't want to talk to them
about it, you have anotheranswer.
Yeah, my daddy died, and thenyou could just leave it at that.
Brad Quillen (41:08):
And those of you that are listening, new parents,
that you're wondering.
Well, what do I tell them?
You are more than welcome toreach out to Jessica's House and
for us to give you ideas aboutthat, and on our website there's
a number of resources aboutthat of how do you explain a
death, of a homicide or asuicide to kiddos.
But some of those script ideasyou can always reach out to us
(41:29):
at info at Jessica's House dotorg for more resources as well
If you ever have questions abouthow to do that.
So, Colleen, I wanted to askyou.
There's an activity that we useat Jessica's house that talks
about the iceberg and the natureand the reality of too much
pressure on the top of theiceberg can flip it over right,
but there's some other pressuresthat kiddos sometimes feel with
(41:49):
a homicide or suicide death,and would you talk a little bit
about that?
But then we also want to endwith sharing about the iceberg
activity that parents can dowith their kiddos at home.
Colleen Montague (41:58):
Yeah, so after a death by homicide, it would
be so understandable if yourchild was worried about more
violence happening to yourfamily or to themselves.
They may also have feelings ofjust anger towards the person
who brought harm to their lovedone and they may want to harm
them back, and those can bereally scary thoughts to hear as
(42:22):
a parent, if your child'sexpressing those to you.
But those are how they'refeeling.
That's the worries they'reholding inside of them and so,
coming alongside them and Aaronand I have talked about you
can't stop a feeling or youcan't take it from them.
A feeling is theirs, so you canbe there with them in it and
(42:42):
ask them those questions to helpthem understand it better.
But then you can also bringlogic to it at the end, and so
instead of just saying no, thatwill never happen to our family
again, you're safe, you're finebeing there for their questions,
but then you can finish it upwith.
What happened to your dad waspretty rare and I'm doing
(43:03):
everything I can to keep you andthe rest of our family safe and
just reminding them that youmay have to say that a number of
times over the course of theirlifetime as they're curious
about that or worried, and sothat kind of brings us into our
final part of this episode is ofan activity you can do with
your child.
We've talked a lot abouttalking with your kids, but the
(43:26):
reality is sometimes kids don'thave words, and so engaging in
an activity together might be abetter flow.
And so, thinking about aniceberg, if you can get a piece
of paper out and draw an iceberg, only a little bit of it is
visible above the surface of thewater, but there's much more
going on underneath the surfaceof the water.
(43:48):
So break your iceberg intothree parts.
You're going to have the partthat is exposed above the
surface and then you'll have twodifferent parts segmented below
the water.
And the idea behind thisactivity is we show the world
only so much of how we'reactually doing, and we are
choosing that, you know.
(44:08):
Are we putting a happy face on?
Are we positive?
Maybe we are having a hard dayand we do show the world that
we're having a rough moment, butthere's always so much more
going on underneath the surface.
And so talking to your kidsabout that, you know, we get a
choice in what we show others aswell as what we hold inside,
(44:29):
and so the idea is that wechoose what we show the world,
but there's a lot of pressurethat comes from the outside
world onto us, and if we're nottaking care of ourselves on the
outside and the inside, thenwe're at risk of flipping In
nature.
There's actually a video onlinewhere there were two men ice
(44:50):
spelunking on an iceberg and itactually was just enough added
pressure to cause the iceberg toflip, and so it broke off and
it flipped over, and when such abig piece of ice hits the water
, it causes a tidal wave, and Ijust feel like that's such a
(45:11):
perfect example of us as humansand kids.
When we flip, a tidal waveensues, and those are those
behaviors that may befrustrating for others.
Those are those behaviors inour kids that might be hard or
big you know fits or rage ortantrums, maybe older kids
(45:32):
yelling stuff at us, you knowslamming doors but those are
little tidal waves happeningwhen there's been too much
pressure on the outside.
So the idea is, how can we tendto what's underneath along with
the parts of us that areshowing up to the world?
So could we bring some of thosethings from the underneath,
from the below the surface, tothe surface, which could look
(45:54):
like not holding it alone,reaching out with somebody else
and asking them to hold italongside us.
Brad Quillen (45:59):
Thank you so much , Erin and Colleen, for this
today, because this is a hardtopic, but it's a topic we've
got to talk about in the worldof grief.
Those of you listening.
If you need more resources,you're always able to find those
at jessicashouseorg, and if youhave any questions or even
ideas for another show topic,reach out to us at info at
(46:20):
jessicashouseorg.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of when
Grief Comes Home, when we'll bediscussing the death of your
partner and the social changesthat follow.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (46:33):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
If you need grief-relatedsupport, please visit
jessicashouseorg to download ourfree resources and be sure to
(46:54):
follow Jessica's House on socialmedia, and if you have any
questions or topics you'd likefor us to explore in future
episodes, just send us an emailto jessicashouseorg.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time, for
when Grief Comes Home.
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