April 22, 2025 • 42 mins
Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief.
In this episode, Brad, Colleen, and Erin discuss the unique challenges families face when grieving the loss of a loved one from an accidental overdose. Families navigate the stigma associated with this type of death, as well as the complex emotions of shame, guilt, relief, and rage.
We share how families often experience years of anticipatory grief while living with someone battling addiction, setting boundaries with love, only to question those decisions after death.
Children also have their own regrets and fears, wondering if they could have prevented the death. It's vital to share the honest truth with them because it creates a foundation for trust and healing.
Please subscribe to the When Grief Comes Home podcast and leave us a review. The more stars, reviews, and downloads the show receives, the more parents and families in grief can find support.
Order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L
For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gary Shriver (00:00):
Hello and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Now let's go to the team, asthey share grief resources and
(00:48):
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (01:01):
Well, hello, hello , it's Brad from Jessica's House
.
Today we'll be talking aboutthe complexities of grief after
an accidental overdose.
The grieving process carriesmany complexities and these can
be intensified depending on thenature of the death, especially
in the case such as overdose.
Here at Jessica's House anumber of years ago, Colleen and
(01:24):
Erin we all know that westarted a group specifically for
this topic of accidentaloverdose.
It was about three years ago.
We saw just that need and wecontinued to hear the need from
families that they needed aplace to just be able to be
together because of how theperson died.
And, Colleen, when you firstcame on staff, you started in
(01:45):
that group on accidentaloverdose.
Could you just kind of walk usthrough some of the things
you've learned over your yearsof sitting with families that
have had someone who's died froman accidental overdose?
Colleen Montague (01:57):
I want to start first by saying there are
so many different ways to termthis type of loss, and we let
families teach us, you know howthey feel about it.
We take a really compassionatestance here at Jessica's House
about the person who lived withthe illness of addiction and
(02:19):
that really it's an illness andit was so much out of their
control in a lot of ways butultimately resulted in choices
that led to their death.
And it's so complex for thesefamilies that are left holding
so much frustration, regrets,guilts, really big emotions
(02:41):
about it.
And so I want to kind of startback, maybe towards the
beginning, with the reality thatthe relationship with their
person who died could have beenhard for a long time before they
even died.
It could have been years thattheir person struggled with the
illness of addiction, andthere's so much complexity there
before they're even now holdingthis grief.
(03:04):
We have parents in our programthat ended up having to get
divorced from their partnerbecause of what the illness of
addiction brought into the home.
We also have families that havetold us you know there was a
lot of anticipatory grief foryears because they were always
worried about getting that phonecall to confirm that their
(03:27):
person had died, and so I justwant to really put that out
there just how much anticipatorygrief these families were
holding, this fear that theirworst fear could happen, and so
grief began long before theperson actually died.
Brad Quillen (03:45):
Colleen, you're talking about just so many of
the complexities and theemotions, guilt, confusion, the
whys, and these are just hugeemotions.
But one of the things that I'velearned sitting in groups with
how the person died and wherethere's kind of those struggles
of those with homicide, suicideand overdose, and especially
with overdose, is looking backat some of the boundaries we put
(04:08):
in because we had to and thensecond guessing ourselves and
you've heard that a lot ingroups.
Colleen Montague (04:16):
Yeah, you really were living in two
different places.
You lived in the place whenthey were alive and struggling
with addiction, and you may havehad to put down some boundaries
with love because you caredabout them, because you didn't
want them to harm themselves.
You wanted them to get better.
You wanted to help.
But there can be a fine linebetween helping and enabling.
(04:36):
You know, and as a parent or asa sibling or as a friend, you
may have put down someboundaries.
And now here you are, on theother end.
You know this person has diednow and you're left holding the
complex emotions that come withthat, and maybe now you feel
even guilty about it, or maybeyou do feel confident that that
(04:57):
was what you needed to do, eventhough it was so hard.
Brad Quillen (05:01):
Yeah, what could I have done differently?
And, like you said, as you'regoing through it, there's no one
size fits all in these.
It's so different for everyfamily.
Every relationship's different,every addiction is different
and the depths of it and theemotions that go with it and the
things that sometimes lead toaddiction.
Like all, there's just so manydifferent pieces, so it's not
(05:23):
like what worked for one familyworks for another.
Families and parents, we dohave to put boundaries in and
protect our homes and as thosethings come about.
Colleen Montague (05:32):
And, like you said, Brad, with how everybody
looks at this differently, evenjust the terminology changes
from family to family, and sothe terminology that we have
learned here is the person mayhave died by overdose, they may
have died by accidental overdose, they may have died by
poisoning, especially withfentanyl being such a such a
(05:56):
huge issue in our culture rightnow.
I even had a mom once that feltlike her.
Her son died by suicide becauseshe felt that he knew what he
was doing to his body and he didit anyways, and she was so
frustrated with that, and so wewant to just let them teach us
how they term this death, whatthey feel it was.
Brad Quillen (06:18):
And Erin, you've spent decades sitting with
families and some of the deathsthat you've sat with families
have been with this piece ofoverdose.
Erin Nelson (06:26):
Yeah, and as Colleen is talking about this,
thinking about this terminology,and you know, I think what I
hear from families so much isthey have a fierce need and
desire to really protect thereputation of the person who
died, because how they dieddidn't really define their
essence of who they were.
(06:47):
And when I think about that, Ithink about, you know, just
being able to understand alittle bit more about how a
brain is affected by the illnessof addiction.
And so I remember one sisterthat talked about her brother
who died, who said, you knowthat her brother was so warm and
(07:09):
he was sensitive and he was anartist and there were so many
parts of him that were soamazing.
And when she would talk to herfriends and people would ask her
, like how did your brother die?
If she said overdose, she feltlike they just dismissed him.
They just like dismissed hisamazingness and that somehow his
(07:31):
death wasn't as important assomeone else who died from like
an illness or like an accidentor something like that.
So there's that fierce kind ofneed to say like, wait a minute,
like this was my brother andthey meant so much to me and I
wish you could have seen them.
You know when I grew up withthem and how much fun we had and
(07:51):
all of those kinds of pieces ofwho they are, and until they
were looking for ways to be outof pain or looking for ways to
escape this, the hard parts oflife, and so that's that's what
we hear a lot.
Brad Quillen (08:07):
It's that fear of judgment.
Erin Nelson (08:09):
It is.
It is.
You can feel so isolated whenyou are suffering the loss of
something.
You know, a stigmatized loss.
You know, and I know we seethat.
You know when we're talkingabout complications and you know
whether that's suicide orhomicide or this overdose piece
it's.
You know you could feel so muchshame around how someone died.
Brad Quillen (08:32):
It's so interesting you say that because
I can't tell you how manypeople I've heard that from, or
the examples of people that arelistening right now that they
walk through the grocery storeand they just feel like they're
looked at differently by peoplethat know them because of how
the person died, right and again, I've spent a lot of my time
with homicide and suicide.
But even with that overdosepiece, that as soon as someone
(08:52):
says, well, how there's a pit intheir stomach because there's
that stigma around how they died.
Erin Nelson (08:58):
Definitely and to Colleen's point, also about
beforehand, there may have beenrelationships that were impacted
because of the story that thisparent was living in, because
(09:24):
maybe it was just it had been, astruggle for a really long
time, and so sometimes it's likethey may not feel quite that
support that they would normallyhave from other people would,
because they have been, youknow, living in a situation
where maybe their child wasstealing from them, or maybe
they were in jail at times, ormaybe they were on the streets
and all of those pieces, and sowith that you want to say you
know, but they were so much morethan that, you know, and we
(09:45):
tried everything.
And we just heard from a parentwho said we threw every
resource we had for the verybest rehabs, for everything that
we could do, and still theillness was too much, you know,
and there was nothing we coulddo.
And one mom said like I wishthat they had an illness, that I
could just take them to thedoctor.
Brad Quillen (10:05):
Right and get two pills and be better in the
morning.
Erin Nelson (10:08):
Have a diagnosis, a scan, an operation, something,
yeah, but this involved a choicethat needed to be made by the
person with the illness, andthat's the hardest part
sometimes is like how they haveto join in their healing, and
sometimes they don't have thecapacity to do so.
Colleen Montague (10:27):
Erin, I really appreciate how you are honoring
the person who struggled withaddiction and for the reason of
why people use, you know so muchof the time it's to cover up or
numb out from pain or just thehardness of life that they're
carrying in their body, and so Iappreciate that you're honoring
(10:47):
that, that we remember the why,for why some people use and
struggle with addiction.
Erin Nelson (10:54):
Yeah, and I think what we've heard, you know, from
people that even survive anoverdose, that they say like
they wanted to be out of painsomehow and that you know, it
really did occupy so many oftheir thoughts of when they
could have it again.
And so then they just say, youknow, I really don't want to die
, I just want to have an escapeand so being able to really have
(11:20):
compassion on that and howtheir brain is working in that
way, and we don't understand itall and I think, but just
knowing that they want to getbetter, you know they want to
get better.
Brad Quillen (11:35):
They don't want to feel the pain.
Erin Nelson (11:37):
Yeah, they don't want to feel the pain.
Brad Quillen (11:39):
And there's pain and grief and what we'd say here
at Jessica's House is you haveto walk through it and we know
some of you that are listeningare walking through grief and if
you're listening to thispodcast, you might have had
someone who's died from anaccidental overdose and you're
in the early stages or you'restuck somewhere in it.
And we just want you to knowthat there are resources and you
(12:00):
can always reach out toJessica's House at jessicashouse
.
org and you'll find our contactinformation on there, but also
through this podcast and alsothrough the book when grief
comes home, because so many ofthose folks that come to group
feel so isolated because of howthe person died but when they
come to a place like Jessica'shouse, they find others that are
walking a similar path and thatrelief that there's hope,
(12:22):
because the person across fromme in this group has maybe six
months down the road or twoyears down the road and calling.
We've watched that for years inthe adult groups that we lead,
that people get to borrow hopefrom someone that's across the
room from them.
Colleen Montague (12:35):
Absolutely, just that they know they're not
the only one walking through it.
We've said that so many times.
Just how powerful that is.
I want to add to the words yousaid, brad, about relief and how
that's one of those complicatedemotions that families are also
holding is, Erin, you talkedabout how their loved one was in
pain, so they might feel alittle relief when that person
(12:59):
is gone, not because they didnot want them in this world with
them, but because they know nowwhere they are.
You know they're not on thestreets or suffering with the
illness of addiction.
They know they're not in painanymore in that way and there's
relief, but then also shame byfeeling that.
Erin Nelson (13:18):
Yeah, I talked to someone recently who said for
the first time, I don't wonderwhere they are.
Brad Quillen (13:24):
Yeah.
Erin Nelson (13:25):
And I feel like you know I at least I know they're
safe.
And yesterday someone said tome you know they're for the
first time they're resting andit was just because they had
kind of a frantic like need toyou know use and it was like
they weren't ever really at restand so they just felt like they
(13:47):
were resting and that itbrought them comfort.
So we've learned so much fromthe complexity of that of
wishing they were here, wishingthey would have found a solution
and wishing that they had beenable to overcome this illness of
addiction and then at the sametime grateful, like just having
(14:08):
that gratitude, that they'resafe.
Brad Quillen (14:10):
It's almost a peace.
Colleen Montague (14:13):
Coupled with pain.
It's such a dichotomy, right?
Brad Quillen (14:20):
Yes, yeah, that relief is a double meaning word
that comes with a side of guilt,shame.
Oh my gosh, how can I feelrelief if they're not here
anymore, right, but there's,there's that peace.
Erin Nelson (14:27):
Yeah, and I think another emotion that we hear
around Jessica's House is justintense rage yeah.
Yeah, rage that at the dealer.
You know, especially if, when,especially as we're seeing this
fentanyl poisoning and how it'sgetting into our area and the
crime of it, right and evengoing into, kind of we have some
(14:51):
crossover there, right, evenwith our homicide group it's
like you know who gave them thisand how did they get this and
why, especially when the withthe poisoning it's you know the
source of it and really beingoutraged that it's even here
that they have access to it andalso just really, really mad at
(15:14):
the person who they just wantedthem so badly to be able to walk
away and, you know, find othersolutions and it never happened.
Brad Quillen (15:26):
To get better.
Erin Nelson (15:27):
Mm-hmm.
Colleen Montague (15:28):
I've even heard from families about family
members being mad at each other.
Maybe the in-laws are mad atthe spouse of well, they were
living with you.
Like, why didn't you dosomething?
Why didn't you tell us about it?
Brad Quillen (15:43):
Colleen, I've heard that numerous times.
And then what happens sometimesin those pieces when there's
the blame of why didn't you domore?
You saw it, you were livingwith it.
Then there's kids that getinvolved with in-laws and the
two sides of the family, andthen there's even more pain.
Erin Nelson (16:01):
And I think you know, just like with, as
everybody grieves differently,everybody in a family will view
support differently.
How do you support someone whois living with the illness of
addiction?
Everyone has a different ideaabout what that looks like, and
so, as if a person does die ofthe illness of addiction, then
(16:24):
you're kind of left with feelingthat I wish I would have done
more.
I wish you would have done more, I wish you didn't do that, I
wish I didn't do this, and sothere's a lot of those feelings
that are unresolved.
So being able to come togetherand really process that, and
there's definitely a lot oflooking back.
There's a lot of looking back.
Yeah, because, like we said,it's complex and you know there
(16:48):
are no easy answers.
It's a very complicated illnessthat even the best physicians
don't really even understand.
So learning how to treatsomeone and how to support
someone is not easy.
So even just the best offamilies, they're grappling with
what to do.
Brad Quillen (17:08):
Yeah, it's not like you go to the doctor and
you have strep throat and theygive you just antibiotics and
seven days later, there'sthere's not everyone pretty much
reacts the same to thistreatment for addiction.
Erin Nelson (17:18):
It's yeah, you just yeah.
Every addiction is so differentto you.
Brad Quillen (17:23):
We were just saying looking back, we, we look
back and we we hear stories ofpeople that look back and it's
it's out of that heart space ofwhat could I have done
differently and the hurt and thepain and the sometimes guilt of
did I do enough?
But then there's the logicbrain side of it that says we
did everything.
Erin Nelson (17:43):
Right, right
Brad Quillen (17:44):
Those don't always equal out and agree our heart
and our brain sometimes.
Erin Nelson (17:48):
Yeah.
Brad Quillen (17:48):
The logic and that just that emotion of it's so
painful that they're gone.
But I know we, logically, weknow why we put boundaries in.
We know we tried so manydifferent things.
Could be for years or decades.
Erin Nelson (18:01):
It's so true.
And with grief, no matter whatkind of grief it is, there's
always guilt involved.
We're humans, we have humanrelationships, we will feel each
other and we will be failedfrom others.
And so knowing that guilt ispart of grief and also guilt is
part of, you know, parenting,guilt is part of being married
(18:23):
or having a partner.
So there's just guilt is justpart of life, right, and regret
is part of life sometimes.
And knowing that that's part ofthe grief process, that is one
part of the grief process thatwe've watched soften over time.
So, as we have groups, maybethat guilt part is something
people are really talking aboutin the beginning and then over
(18:46):
time that softens and sotrusting again, like we've said
before, that you won't alwaysfeel the way you do right now.
Brad Quillen (18:55):
I think when you said that guilt is a part of
grief, I think that's so true onevery age group I've ever
worked with at Jessica's house,and if we were to do you know,
grief comes with I think guiltwould be one of those first
words remorse tears anger, youknow, the longing to be with
them again, Like there's somethings we could just list out
(19:19):
but I think guilt's right therein the beginning.
Erin Nelson (19:20):
Absolutely.
I mean, what parent hasn't laidin bed at night and thought to
themselves like, oh, I wish Iwould have read one more story,
I wish that I just stayed in theyard for a few more minutes,
you know.
Or I wish I wouldn't haveoverreacted when they brought
their report card home, whateverit is, or the lizard in from
the backyard, the lizard.
No, you can't put it in a jartonight.
And yeah, you're just.
You know it's not easy to be aparent and guilt comes with that
(19:43):
for sure.
Brad Quillen (19:45):
Yeah, Erin, it's funny that we start talking
about parenting and kiddosbecause after the break we're
going to talk about how do wesupport our kids through the
complexities of this type ofgrief, that idea and that
wrestling through a death fromoverdose.
Gary Shriver (20:00):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book when Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(20:22):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media,and if you have any questions
(20:43):
or topics that you'd like us toexplore in a future episode,
just send us an email to info@jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (20:51):
Welcome back and after the break, we told you we
were going to talk about how tosupport your child through the
complexities of grief whenthere's an overdose death.
And, Colleen, I am curious whatyou would say to those parents
that are listening, or thosegrandparents or caregivers that
are listening about what aresome of those ways to have some
of those conversations and howdo we be open and honest and
(21:12):
have that dialogue with yet sucha hard, hard topic?
Colleen Montague (21:17):
Such a hard topic, absolutely.
I'll never, ever forget a momin my group who was really
grappling with how to tell herkids the truth, and to the depth
, you know, of the addictiontheir dad struggled with.
She said that he was a reallyfun dad in the eyes of her kids.
(21:38):
They just thought he was so fun, and the tricky part about that
was, she said, he was so funwhen he was using, when he was
high.
You know, that's what made himsuch a fun dad in those moments,
and so I don't know if I wantto shatter that image of him,
but also I want them to know thetruth, and so just a hard, hard
(21:58):
spot to be in to know how muchto tell.
But we just go back to whatwe've said time and time again
is that honest, opencommunication is always the best
route.
You know, knowing that yourchild can come to you for the
truth sets that foundation upfor the future, that they can
always come back and ask morequestions.
When we don't give kids theaccurate information first of
(22:22):
all, other people know it andcan share it with them.
They can look it up and so theymay find it on their own or, as
they learn more accurateinformation down the road, then
they have to open up andregrieve with the new
information that they have.
So it kind of delays and kindof messes with the grieving
process in that way.
Erin Nelson (22:43):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you're talking to a
child.
They have to I know you've saidthis so much in training, Brad
they have to step into a firmfoundation that starts with the
truth.
Right, it's like this is yourfirst step of this is actually
what happened.
And we're standing here, righthere, on this firm foundation,
(23:03):
and when you're talking to achild and you know you're
starting with, I mean, maybe,some of their questions that
they have and you're answeringthem as honestly as you can,
according to their developmentalability, and you are being
honest about how addiction andthe illness of addiction affects
(23:25):
a person's mind and affects aperson's body and when they take
too much of a substance, thatit makes their body stop working
.
And if you can start there,then you can be there for any
questions that they may have.
Colleen Montague (23:43):
Erin, you've talked about it as being an
invisible disease and I likethat terminology for a kiddo.
You know to explain to themit's an invisible disease.
You know that really takes overyour mind and your body.
Erin Nelson (23:56):
Yeah, and we talk about how it causes a person to
use more substances than is safefor their body, and it can lead
in death.
So this disease that, just inthese different ways that we may
not fully understand, is thatthey have a craving for more of
(24:17):
this substance than their bodycan handle.
Colleen Montague (24:20):
You could always relate it to how much we
love sugar and the more sugar weeat, the more sugar our body
wants.
Now, sugar is not going tocause the same effect as drugs,
so I don't want to create feararound sugar, but just for them
to understand.
You know, the more you giveyour body, it really likes it.
It's feels and tastes so goodand you get, like you know, kind
(24:41):
of a little energy from it andthen, but really we know too
much sugar isn't good for us andit doesn't make us feel good
but it still tastes so good.
So how could something thattastes so good not actually be
good for us?
Brad Quillen (24:53):
So, with that example, Colleen, the reality is
that the drug took away somepain, or didn't?
It changed how the person feltright, and so they continue to
use these pieces.
And so then there's thequestion of we use the word
called drug and there's theconfusion of because I go to the
doctor to get drugs when I'msick?
(25:14):
Well, I thought these were tomake you better.
So, Erin, how do we tangiblyexplain that to a kiddo?
Between the drug reality andthe medicine or prescription
piece?
Erin Nelson (25:22):
Yeah.
So when we're talking to achild about medication, and
especially when we're talkingabout overdose, we're seeing
that they use more of themedication than the doctor
prescribed or with safety use,and that's how their body
stopped working.
So when we're explaining that,especially with the overdose
piece, to let them know that, ofcourse, when you're taking
(25:44):
something, a medication, it'salways dosed according to your
body weight and according to howyour body will process this
medication.
But when someone takes too much, then their body can stop
working.
Brad Quillen (25:56):
And that's the phrase I think too, that I want
to come back to.
Is they made their body stopworking?
Because I know there's peoplelistening right now.
Well, how do I explain evendeath or died, you know, and
there's that reality.
So that age appropriatelanguage the age appropriate
language.
Erin Nelson (26:12):
And then, when you think about the illness or
substance use disorder, we talkabout it to children, as it's a
brain illness and it sometimescan lead to death.
And so knowing that, just likewith cancer or any other illness
, it sometimes can lead to death, right, and so being able to
(26:32):
explain it as an illness to achild as well.
Brad Quillen (26:35):
Yeah, and doing too much of it will make their
body stop working.
Erin Nelson (26:38):
Right, if yeah, in taking too much medicine.
Brad Quillen (26:42):
Erin, you're given some tangibles and just
concrete ways to explain that,and even on our website at
jessica's house.
org, there's a number ofresources of how to have those
conversations with kids, and so,folks, if you're listening and
need some of that, you can go tothe website.
One of the other things,colleen, we hear from kids in
some of those first weeks,months, is that guilt or that
regret or the thought that if Ionly would have done this, maybe
(27:05):
there would have been adifferent outcome.
Colleen Montague (27:07):
We had a little girl once who shared if
she could call her daddy on thephone.
She wishes she could tell himnot to take those last two pills
.
And that is what our kids, youknow, are holding inside.
They do have that wish, theyhave that wondering.
You know, could I have donesomething different?
Or maybe they really think itwas their fault.
You know, man, I really, Ishould have just asked him
(27:30):
harder, please, please, stopusing.
If only I could have made themstop.
And we always say, you know, bethere for the regrets, listen to
them.
You know it's in their body,it's in their heart.
We don't want to just shut itdown.
You can't take a regret awayfrom somebody but, like Erin
said, those can soften in timeand so after you hear their
(27:51):
regrets, you can follow up with.
You could not have made himstop.
Only he could have done that.
But the addiction made it toohard for him to stop.
There could also be fears thatother people in their life could
have addiction and die fromsubstance use.
You know, brad, you've saidbefore the worst thing has
(28:11):
happened, so couldn't it happenagain?
You know that safety bubble'sbeen burst and parents may even
hold that fear too.
Now you know that they don'twant their child or other child
to struggle with the same.
Erin Nelson (28:23):
Yeah, and I just want to say too that when we're
talking to our kids it's soapparent, you know, as a parent,
we just want to protect themand so when they're expressing
that guilt or regret, as we hear, that not to jump in too fast
but to really allow them toexpress, like Well, some, you
(28:43):
know, I wish, like you said,with the two pills, I wish I
could have told daddy not totake those two pills.
At Jessica's house, you know,we talk a lot about reflection
and mirroring being able to sayyou really wish that you could
have told daddy not to takethose two pills because you want
them to come to you.
Even with these regrets,they're not anchored in correct
(29:04):
information.
Right, we know that there'snothing they could have done to
stop this illness of addiction,but we also want them to be able
to say it and to have a safespace to express these regrets
that they have, Because, like wesaid earlier, it really is part
of grief.
Brad Quillen (29:24):
I'm going to say something that some listeners
might not agree with or they'llbe like no, and you were talking
about protecting kids.
One of the ways that we canprotect kids but also be the
person they come to with thoseregrets and those questions is
to tell them the truth, becausethey're going to hear the truth
somewhere and calling youalluded to it a couple minutes
ago.
(29:44):
They're going to hear fromother people and when they hear
from other people it's usuallygot wrong information in it and
they've heard it third, fourth,fifth hand and then it just
makes it all the more confusing.
But when they hear it fromtheir caregiver, their parent,
their adult, they know that whenI ask questions I'm going to
get the truth and I can alwaysgo to them.
But it's so true with you wantto hear those regrets, to be
able to be with them in thoseregrets.
Erin Nelson (30:05):
Yeah, and all you're doing, Brad and I love
what you're saying here it'slike you're establishing that
trust.
And so they are developing apattern of going to you as their
caregiver with regrets, withtheir questions, with any kind
of concerns, and also theirfears.
One just natural fear that achild will have.
I mean, once this safety bubbleis burst of like, oh, we live
(30:29):
in a family and people,everyone's here, and once
someone dies, you always justnaturally will wonder well, will
someone else die?
I think kids have that fear,but so do adults, and so you
know a child, especially withhow someone dies and we hear
this quite a bit, even in ourgroups where a child loses their
loved one to cancer, they'llwonder about, you know, disease
(30:53):
in their body or will theirparent or other sibling, you
know, get a disease like this.
It's the same thing withaddiction and so knowing that a
child who lives with a parent orsibling with addiction, or
someone a loved one with anaddiction and lives with that
illness, they may wonder ifsomeone else will start using,
(31:13):
get worried about substance use,alcohol use, and wonder, like
maybe a parent's having a glassof wine, and if someone died
from an alcohol overdose, youknow, will that happen?
You know, maybe.
So they could develop somefears around that as well.
Brad Quillen (31:29):
I'll say to parents in group from time to
time that and caregivers thatare in groups that I mean think
of all the big emotions that arein our bodies in this adult
group and the questions and theunexplainable things.
And we have some lifeexperience to see that through
in a lens and we have someunderstanding that comes with
years and being a parent and,you know, doing life for so long
(31:50):
.
But there's these six, seven,eight, nine, 10, 12 year olds
that are downstairs at Jessica'sHouse that have these same big
emotions and big questions, butin a little body.
Erin Nelson (31:59):
Yeah, absolutely, they have these questions and
they also, just as we talkedabout parents, they could
experience rage, right, and alot of complex emotions, because
it's really this mixture oflove for the person and
compassion for the person andmaybe some relief that the
person you know isn't in painanymore, but also really angry
(32:22):
at the person for leaving themthis way, for not overcoming
their addiction, and so theyalso may have some confusion,
just like you mentioned, justlike unanswerable.
I feel like sometimes there area lot of confusing circumstances
with an overdose and they'renot.
People aren't really sure whatexactly happened, because they
(32:44):
could have been alone and theremay not be answers.
So a child may wonder, you know, if they have, if they are of
the age to understand, maybesuicide.
It's like they may wonder wasit an accident?
Was it suicide?
So there may be some confusionthere and there may be some
confusion in the family and, asyou're talking to your child
(33:04):
about the truth, if you don'tknow the truth, it's okay to say
I don't know, and so if thereare some complexities around the
circumstances, it's okay tojust say I wish I had more
information.
I'm going to do everything thatI can to get this information's
and I will let you know as soonas I found out.
Brad Quillen (33:19):
So let me ask you two this, because there are
listeners that are hearing us,there's a hundred questions that
they're worried their kiddo'sgonna ask, how do those
exchanges happen?
Is it cause we've worked withhundreds of families in this,
but we've also helped familieshave those conversations with
their kiddos?
Is it all at once?
(33:39):
Is it over time?
They ask questions?
Is there some relief we canbring to those that are
listening right now that arejust overwhelmed with thinking
of, oh, but I don't have answersto these six or seven questions
, or you know, I'm so nervousthat they ask this.
Colleen Montague (33:54):
Kids ask questions.
They're ready to receiveanswers too that's what we
learned over the years and theydon't always ask them.
You know, in multiplicities,you know they don't ask them all
at once, and so they're goingto ask what they want to know,
and that usually satiates them,and then they'll come back when
they're ready for moreinformation, or maybe they're
going to ask the same questionagain.
They need to hear that answerover and over again as they try
(34:16):
to make sense of it.
And so it's okay to enter intothat space with them, because
even if you don't have theanswers, like Erin said, you can
say I don't know.
If I find out, I'll let youknow.
There might be some things wejust don't know the answer to.
Brad Quillen (34:31):
So, Erin, let me ask you this question, because
kids might not know how to evenphrase this, but it's something
that they run into at school orwith friends or sports teams or
dance class or whatever it maybe.
There's this how do I answerthe question to my buddies that
ask, or my friends, how did mydad die?
Or my person die, but they'rescared to say anything about the
(34:54):
reality of how they died,because they ask us a lot of
questions but then they don'tknow how to answer those
questions when they're asked.
Erin Nelson (35:02):
Yeah, and I think, as parents, as we model this
openness about talking about theillness of addiction and how
this affects your brain and thechoices that you make, that when
kids are asked these questionssometimes they're just naturally
going to in your family aboutthe illness of addiction, that
(35:30):
they have words to say and thatit's natural to feel embarrassed
about how someone diessometimes, but being able to say
that my dad died from theillness of addiction, so having
terminology in your family andtalking about what that looks
like, can really help them tohave some just words to talk to
(35:53):
their friends about.
And that it's natural, as justas they come to you with their
fears, they can also come to youwith their sense of shame.
Brad Quillen (36:02):
Because it's a reality of all humans.
When someone dies, we want toknow how.
Erin Nelson (36:07):
We always want to know how that's a survival skill
, right?
I mean, knowing how someonedies helps keep us alive, right.
And so our brain always seeksan answer to how someone died,
and so that's always.
I just had.
I heard about someone that hadbeen in an accident and I just
needed to like kind of envisionthis in my mind, like where were
(36:29):
they going and what happened?
Did they call for help?
And you know, you just wonderin your own mind about, you know
what happened.
And so, as kids, as you learnabout how someone dies, it's
just a natural question.
It's not a bad question on theplayground If they hear that
someone's dad died, or siblingor mom just to say how did they
(36:53):
die.
And so equipping your child onhow to answer that is really
important.
Brad Quillen (36:57):
So we're asking the same questions that kids are
asking.
Erin Nelson (37:00):
Oh yeah, absolutely , it's just a natural question.
I mean, just think about it.
You search the headlines, youhear like your favorite actor
died at 85, you know Well howdid he die, you know?
And so you wonder, just anatural curiosity.
Brad Quillen (37:15):
And when there's no reason given on the news,
what do we do as adults?
Erin Nelson (37:19):
Oh, you got to dig in.
Brad Quillen (37:20):
Speculate.
Erin Nelson (37:21):
Right, speculate, that's true.
Brad Quillen (37:23):
We do the exact same thing.
Erin Nelson (37:24):
Absolutely, you just do it.
Brad Quillen (37:27):
And that's what these kiddos are doing.
Colleen Montague (37:28):
Yeah, and so that's why, if we can prepare
our kids ahead of time, you know, hey, there are other families
that don't.
They haven't gone through whatwe've gone through, so they may
not be able to understand.
But when people ask youquestions, you get to choose how
to answer them, and so if youkind of have some ideas ahead of
time, that can help you feelmore ready for those questions,
depending on how you're feelingwith them, or the person who's
asking how comfortable you feelwith them.
You could tell them, "My dadtook too many pills and he
died", or you could say, "My daddied, and that's all I want to
say right now.
" And so really empowering yourkid to get to have control over
(38:08):
what they want to share and towho they want to share, Because
sometimes people are curious forthe wrong reasons, not helpful
reasons, but then there arethose that are curious but
they're going to still be withyou in it.
Brad Quillen (38:22):
"control think that's so good to have them help
them be prepared, so they'renot caught off guard because
they're going to be asked.
Erin Nelson (38:28):
Yeah, they'll be asked and it's okay for them to
even say it's hard for me totalk about.
Just be honest, you know thatmaybe they're not.
They don't want to talk aboutit right now, and it's okay to
say that as well.
Colleen Montague (38:41):
And I always like to relate it, even just to
myself, if I'm, you know,empowering my kids for something
, I can share an experience I'vehad, you know.
Oh, you know, I had that happento me and this is what I
decided to say, so that theyknow they're not alone in it,
that you, as their parent, arebeing asked you know the same
(39:01):
things from others around them.
Erin Nelson (39:03):
f, and I think just after having just a lot of
different types of deaths in ourfamily.
It's just awkward sometimes.
That's just the truth of it.
Brad Quillen (39:13):
Just baseline.
Erin Nelson (39:14):
Just baseline, you know, it's just awkward.
I mean, you just someone diesand you have to explain it and
some people don't really knowwhat to do with it and you're
like, okay, that that's justlife, that's just, you know,
people don't always know what tosay.
They say silly things and justknowing having that conversation
with your child, that sometimesit kind of feels bad when
(39:36):
people don't know what to say,and but we can talk about that
together.
Colleen Montague (39:40):
And you may not like the answer you gave in
the moment.
You know, maybe you just didn'tknow what to say and you feel
like what you said was awkward,and that's okay.
It teaches us for the next timeof what would have felt better
and what we want to try nexttime someone asks.
Brad Quillen (39:54):
One time somebody in group said you know, people
talk to me about how my husbanddied and it's just clunky.
Erin Nelson (39:59):
It's just clunky.
You know absolutely grief isclunky.
Brad Quillen (40:03):
One of those grocery store conversations.
Erin Nelson (40:04):
Yeah, grief is clunky.
Brad Quillen (40:06):
Yep, we look back and go.
Oh, I sure could have said thatbetter.
Yeah, or that someone walks upto us.
You can just see theuncomfortableness in them and
you know what they're going toask in the world of grief.
And it's you know, it's justclunky.
Erin Nelson (40:19):
It really is.
Brad Quillen (40:20):
Hey, as we kind of wrap up today, Colleen, I want
you to leave our listeners witha practical way that they can
kind of give their kidssomething tangible to process
with some of their emotions, toreflect a bit, but then also a
way that they could askquestions through this exercise
that you're about to share.
Would you mind sharing aboutthe wishing flag idea?
Colleen Montague (40:39):
Erin shared earlier in the episode about how
we just want to be there forour kids wishings and wonderings
, and one way you can give thempermission to share those is
through this activity with them,so with your child, you could
create a wishing flag and thatcould be done, if you wanted to
get fancy with it, on a littlecanvas flag or a simple piece of
(41:01):
paper that you could hangsomewhere after.
But the three prompts are Iwonder, I wish, I hope.
And so, asking your child, youknow, what do you wonder?
And letting them fill in theblank, you could do your own
flag alongside them what do youwish and what do you hope.
And so, again, we can'tnecessarily change the outcome,
(41:21):
we can't necessarily grant thosewishes, perhaps, but we can be
there to ask and hear and holdthose with them.
Brad Quillen (41:30):
Colleen, Erin, thank you so much for this today
.
This is a really tough topicand, for those of you listening,
be sure to visit jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources andif you have other topics or
questions you'd like us to coveron this podcast, we welcome
your email at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of When
(41:52):
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (41:53):
Until then, we wish you well.
Jessica's House is a children'sbereavement center located in
California's Central Valleysince 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
(42:14):
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
(42:36):
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
Hello and welcome to When Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Now let's go to the team, asthey share grief resources and
(00:48):
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (01:01):
Well, hello, hello , it's Brad from Jessica's House
.
Today we'll be talking aboutthe complexities of grief after
an accidental overdose.
The grieving process carriesmany complexities and these can
be intensified depending on thenature of the death, especially
in the case such as overdose.
Here at Jessica's House anumber of years ago, Colleen and
(01:24):
Erin we all know that westarted a group specifically for
this topic of accidentaloverdose.
It was about three years ago.
We saw just that need and wecontinued to hear the need from
families that they needed aplace to just be able to be
together because of how theperson died.
And, Colleen, when you firstcame on staff, you started in
(01:45):
that group on accidentaloverdose.
Could you just kind of walk usthrough some of the things
you've learned over your yearsof sitting with families that
have had someone who's died froman accidental overdose?
Colleen Montague (01:57):
I want to start first by saying there are
so many different ways to termthis type of loss, and we let
families teach us, you know howthey feel about it.
We take a really compassionatestance here at Jessica's House
about the person who lived withthe illness of addiction and
(02:19):
that really it's an illness andit was so much out of their
control in a lot of ways butultimately resulted in choices
that led to their death.
And it's so complex for thesefamilies that are left holding
so much frustration, regrets,guilts, really big emotions
(02:41):
about it.
And so I want to kind of startback, maybe towards the
beginning, with the reality thatthe relationship with their
person who died could have beenhard for a long time before they
even died.
It could have been years thattheir person struggled with the
illness of addiction, andthere's so much complexity there
before they're even now holdingthis grief.
(03:04):
We have parents in our programthat ended up having to get
divorced from their partnerbecause of what the illness of
addiction brought into the home.
We also have families that havetold us you know there was a
lot of anticipatory grief foryears because they were always
worried about getting that phonecall to confirm that their
(03:27):
person had died, and so I justwant to really put that out
there just how much anticipatorygrief these families were
holding, this fear that theirworst fear could happen, and so
grief began long before theperson actually died.
Brad Quillen (03:45):
Colleen, you're talking about just so many of
the complexities and theemotions, guilt, confusion, the
whys, and these are just hugeemotions.
But one of the things that I'velearned sitting in groups with
how the person died and wherethere's kind of those struggles
of those with homicide, suicideand overdose, and especially
with overdose, is looking backat some of the boundaries we put
(04:08):
in because we had to and thensecond guessing ourselves and
you've heard that a lot ingroups.
Colleen Montague (04:16):
Yeah, you really were living in two
different places.
You lived in the place whenthey were alive and struggling
with addiction, and you may havehad to put down some boundaries
with love because you caredabout them, because you didn't
want them to harm themselves.
You wanted them to get better.
You wanted to help.
But there can be a fine linebetween helping and enabling.
(04:36):
You know, and as a parent or asa sibling or as a friend, you
may have put down someboundaries.
And now here you are, on theother end.
You know this person has diednow and you're left holding the
complex emotions that come withthat, and maybe now you feel
even guilty about it, or maybeyou do feel confident that that
(04:57):
was what you needed to do, eventhough it was so hard.
Brad Quillen (05:01):
Yeah, what could I have done differently?
And, like you said, as you'regoing through it, there's no one
size fits all in these.
It's so different for everyfamily.
Every relationship's different,every addiction is different
and the depths of it and theemotions that go with it and the
things that sometimes lead toaddiction.
Like all, there's just so manydifferent pieces, so it's not
(05:23):
like what worked for one familyworks for another.
Families and parents, we dohave to put boundaries in and
protect our homes and as thosethings come about.
Colleen Montague (05:32):
And, like you said, Brad, with how everybody
looks at this differently, evenjust the terminology changes
from family to family, and sothe terminology that we have
learned here is the person mayhave died by overdose, they may
have died by accidental overdose, they may have died by
poisoning, especially withfentanyl being such a such a
(05:56):
huge issue in our culture rightnow.
I even had a mom once that feltlike her.
Her son died by suicide becauseshe felt that he knew what he
was doing to his body and he didit anyways, and she was so
frustrated with that, and so wewant to just let them teach us
how they term this death, whatthey feel it was.
Brad Quillen (06:18):
And Erin, you've spent decades sitting with
families and some of the deathsthat you've sat with families
have been with this piece ofoverdose.
Erin Nelson (06:26):
Yeah, and as Colleen is talking about this,
thinking about this terminology,and you know, I think what I
hear from families so much isthey have a fierce need and
desire to really protect thereputation of the person who
died, because how they dieddidn't really define their
essence of who they were.
(06:47):
And when I think about that, Ithink about, you know, just
being able to understand alittle bit more about how a
brain is affected by the illnessof addiction.
And so I remember one sisterthat talked about her brother
who died, who said, you knowthat her brother was so warm and
(07:09):
he was sensitive and he was anartist and there were so many
parts of him that were soamazing.
And when she would talk to herfriends and people would ask her
, like how did your brother die?
If she said overdose, she feltlike they just dismissed him.
They just like dismissed hisamazingness and that somehow his
(07:31):
death wasn't as important assomeone else who died from like
an illness or like an accidentor something like that.
So there's that fierce kind ofneed to say like, wait a minute,
like this was my brother andthey meant so much to me and I
wish you could have seen them.
You know when I grew up withthem and how much fun we had and
(07:51):
all of those kinds of pieces ofwho they are, and until they
were looking for ways to be outof pain or looking for ways to
escape this, the hard parts oflife, and so that's that's what
we hear a lot.
Brad Quillen (08:07):
It's that fear of judgment.
Erin Nelson (08:09):
It is.
It is.
You can feel so isolated whenyou are suffering the loss of
something.
You know, a stigmatized loss.
You know, and I know we seethat.
You know when we're talkingabout complications and you know
whether that's suicide orhomicide or this overdose piece
it's.
You know you could feel so muchshame around how someone died.
Brad Quillen (08:32):
It's so interesting you say that because
I can't tell you how manypeople I've heard that from, or
the examples of people that arelistening right now that they
walk through the grocery storeand they just feel like they're
looked at differently by peoplethat know them because of how
the person died, right and again, I've spent a lot of my time
with homicide and suicide.
But even with that overdosepiece, that as soon as someone
(08:52):
says, well, how there's a pit intheir stomach because there's
that stigma around how they died.
Erin Nelson (08:58):
Definitely and to Colleen's point, also about
beforehand, there may have beenrelationships that were impacted
because of the story that thisparent was living in, because
(09:24):
maybe it was just it had been, astruggle for a really long
time, and so sometimes it's likethey may not feel quite that
support that they would normallyhave from other people would,
because they have been, youknow, living in a situation
where maybe their child wasstealing from them, or maybe
they were in jail at times, ormaybe they were on the streets
and all of those pieces, and sowith that you want to say you
know, but they were so much morethan that, you know, and we
(09:45):
tried everything.
And we just heard from a parentwho said we threw every
resource we had for the verybest rehabs, for everything that
we could do, and still theillness was too much, you know,
and there was nothing we coulddo.
And one mom said like I wishthat they had an illness, that I
could just take them to thedoctor.
Brad Quillen (10:05):
Right and get two pills and be better in the
morning.
Erin Nelson (10:08):
Have a diagnosis, a scan, an operation, something,
yeah, but this involved a choicethat needed to be made by the
person with the illness, andthat's the hardest part
sometimes is like how they haveto join in their healing, and
sometimes they don't have thecapacity to do so.
Colleen Montague (10:27):
Erin, I really appreciate how you are honoring
the person who struggled withaddiction and for the reason of
why people use, you know so muchof the time it's to cover up or
numb out from pain or just thehardness of life that they're
carrying in their body, and so Iappreciate that you're honoring
(10:47):
that, that we remember the why,for why some people use and
struggle with addiction.
Erin Nelson (10:54):
Yeah, and I think what we've heard, you know, from
people that even survive anoverdose, that they say like
they wanted to be out of painsomehow and that you know, it
really did occupy so many oftheir thoughts of when they
could have it again.
And so then they just say, youknow, I really don't want to die
, I just want to have an escapeand so being able to really have
(11:20):
compassion on that and howtheir brain is working in that
way, and we don't understand itall and I think, but just
knowing that they want to getbetter, you know they want to
get better.
Brad Quillen (11:35):
They don't want to feel the pain.
Erin Nelson (11:37):
Yeah, they don't want to feel the pain.
Brad Quillen (11:39):
And there's pain and grief and what we'd say here
at Jessica's House is you haveto walk through it and we know
some of you that are listeningare walking through grief and if
you're listening to thispodcast, you might have had
someone who's died from anaccidental overdose and you're
in the early stages or you'restuck somewhere in it.
And we just want you to knowthat there are resources and you
(12:00):
can always reach out toJessica's House at jessicashouse
.
org and you'll find our contactinformation on there, but also
through this podcast and alsothrough the book when grief
comes home, because so many ofthose folks that come to group
feel so isolated because of howthe person died but when they
come to a place like Jessica'shouse, they find others that are
walking a similar path and thatrelief that there's hope,
(12:22):
because the person across fromme in this group has maybe six
months down the road or twoyears down the road and calling.
We've watched that for years inthe adult groups that we lead,
that people get to borrow hopefrom someone that's across the
room from them.
Colleen Montague (12:35):
Absolutely, just that they know they're not
the only one walking through it.
We've said that so many times.
Just how powerful that is.
I want to add to the words yousaid, brad, about relief and how
that's one of those complicatedemotions that families are also
holding is, Erin, you talkedabout how their loved one was in
pain, so they might feel alittle relief when that person
(12:59):
is gone, not because they didnot want them in this world with
them, but because they know nowwhere they are.
You know they're not on thestreets or suffering with the
illness of addiction.
They know they're not in painanymore in that way and there's
relief, but then also shame byfeeling that.
Erin Nelson (13:18):
Yeah, I talked to someone recently who said for
the first time, I don't wonderwhere they are.
Brad Quillen (13:24):
Yeah.
Erin Nelson (13:25):
And I feel like you know I at least I know they're
safe.
And yesterday someone said tome you know they're for the
first time they're resting andit was just because they had
kind of a frantic like need toyou know use and it was like
they weren't ever really at restand so they just felt like they
(13:47):
were resting and that itbrought them comfort.
So we've learned so much fromthe complexity of that of
wishing they were here, wishingthey would have found a solution
and wishing that they had beenable to overcome this illness of
addiction and then at the sametime grateful, like just having
(14:08):
that gratitude, that they'resafe.
Brad Quillen (14:10):
It's almost a peace.
Colleen Montague (14:13):
Coupled with pain.
It's such a dichotomy, right?
Brad Quillen (14:20):
Yes, yeah, that relief is a double meaning word
that comes with a side of guilt,shame.
Oh my gosh, how can I feelrelief if they're not here
anymore, right, but there's,there's that peace.
Erin Nelson (14:27):
Yeah, and I think another emotion that we hear
around Jessica's House is justintense rage yeah.
Yeah, rage that at the dealer.
You know, especially if, when,especially as we're seeing this
fentanyl poisoning and how it'sgetting into our area and the
crime of it, right and evengoing into, kind of we have some
(14:51):
crossover there, right, evenwith our homicide group it's
like you know who gave them thisand how did they get this and
why, especially when the withthe poisoning it's you know the
source of it and really beingoutraged that it's even here
that they have access to it andalso just really, really mad at
(15:14):
the person who they just wantedthem so badly to be able to walk
away and, you know, find othersolutions and it never happened.
Brad Quillen (15:26):
To get better.
Erin Nelson (15:27):
Mm-hmm.
Colleen Montague (15:28):
I've even heard from families about family
members being mad at each other.
Maybe the in-laws are mad atthe spouse of well, they were
living with you.
Like, why didn't you dosomething?
Why didn't you tell us about it?
Brad Quillen (15:43):
Colleen, I've heard that numerous times.
And then what happens sometimesin those pieces when there's
the blame of why didn't you domore?
You saw it, you were livingwith it.
Then there's kids that getinvolved with in-laws and the
two sides of the family, andthen there's even more pain.
Erin Nelson (16:01):
And I think you know, just like with, as
everybody grieves differently,everybody in a family will view
support differently.
How do you support someone whois living with the illness of
addiction?
Everyone has a different ideaabout what that looks like, and
so, as if a person does die ofthe illness of addiction, then
(16:24):
you're kind of left with feelingthat I wish I would have done
more.
I wish you would have done more, I wish you didn't do that, I
wish I didn't do this, and sothere's a lot of those feelings
that are unresolved.
So being able to come togetherand really process that, and
there's definitely a lot oflooking back.
There's a lot of looking back.
Yeah, because, like we said,it's complex and you know there
(16:48):
are no easy answers.
It's a very complicated illnessthat even the best physicians
don't really even understand.
So learning how to treatsomeone and how to support
someone is not easy.
So even just the best offamilies, they're grappling with
what to do.
Brad Quillen (17:08):
Yeah, it's not like you go to the doctor and
you have strep throat and theygive you just antibiotics and
seven days later, there'sthere's not everyone pretty much
reacts the same to thistreatment for addiction.
Erin Nelson (17:18):
It's yeah, you just yeah.
Every addiction is so differentto you.
Brad Quillen (17:23):
We were just saying looking back, we, we look
back and we we hear stories ofpeople that look back and it's
it's out of that heart space ofwhat could I have done
differently and the hurt and thepain and the sometimes guilt of
did I do enough?
But then there's the logicbrain side of it that says we
did everything.
Erin Nelson (17:43):
Right, right
Brad Quillen (17:44):
Those don't always equal out and agree our heart
and our brain sometimes.
Erin Nelson (17:48):
Yeah.
Brad Quillen (17:48):
The logic and that just that emotion of it's so
painful that they're gone.
But I know we, logically, weknow why we put boundaries in.
We know we tried so manydifferent things.
Could be for years or decades.
Erin Nelson (18:01):
It's so true.
And with grief, no matter whatkind of grief it is, there's
always guilt involved.
We're humans, we have humanrelationships, we will feel each
other and we will be failedfrom others.
And so knowing that guilt ispart of grief and also guilt is
part of, you know, parenting,guilt is part of being married
(18:23):
or having a partner.
So there's just guilt is justpart of life, right, and regret
is part of life sometimes.
And knowing that that's part ofthe grief process, that is one
part of the grief process thatwe've watched soften over time.
So, as we have groups, maybethat guilt part is something
people are really talking aboutin the beginning and then over
(18:46):
time that softens and sotrusting again, like we've said
before, that you won't alwaysfeel the way you do right now.
Brad Quillen (18:55):
I think when you said that guilt is a part of
grief, I think that's so true onevery age group I've ever
worked with at Jessica's house,and if we were to do you know,
grief comes with I think guiltwould be one of those first
words remorse tears anger, youknow, the longing to be with
them again, Like there's somethings we could just list out
(19:19):
but I think guilt's right therein the beginning.
Erin Nelson (19:20):
Absolutely.
I mean, what parent hasn't laidin bed at night and thought to
themselves like, oh, I wish Iwould have read one more story,
I wish that I just stayed in theyard for a few more minutes,
you know.
Or I wish I wouldn't haveoverreacted when they brought
their report card home, whateverit is, or the lizard in from
the backyard, the lizard.
No, you can't put it in a jartonight.
And yeah, you're just.
You know it's not easy to be aparent and guilt comes with that
(19:43):
for sure.
Brad Quillen (19:45):
Yeah, Erin, it's funny that we start talking
about parenting and kiddosbecause after the break we're
going to talk about how do wesupport our kids through the
complexities of this type ofgrief, that idea and that
wrestling through a death fromoverdose.
Gary Shriver (20:00):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book when Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(20:22):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media,and if you have any questions
(20:43):
or topics that you'd like us toexplore in a future episode,
just send us an email to info@jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (20:51):
Welcome back and after the break, we told you we
were going to talk about how tosupport your child through the
complexities of grief whenthere's an overdose death.
And, Colleen, I am curious whatyou would say to those parents
that are listening, or thosegrandparents or caregivers that
are listening about what aresome of those ways to have some
of those conversations and howdo we be open and honest and
(21:12):
have that dialogue with yet sucha hard, hard topic?
Colleen Montague (21:17):
Such a hard topic, absolutely.
I'll never, ever forget a momin my group who was really
grappling with how to tell herkids the truth, and to the depth
, you know, of the addictiontheir dad struggled with.
She said that he was a reallyfun dad in the eyes of her kids.
(21:38):
They just thought he was so fun, and the tricky part about that
was, she said, he was so funwhen he was using, when he was
high.
You know, that's what made himsuch a fun dad in those moments,
and so I don't know if I wantto shatter that image of him,
but also I want them to know thetruth, and so just a hard, hard
(21:58):
spot to be in to know how muchto tell.
But we just go back to whatwe've said time and time again
is that honest, opencommunication is always the best
route.
You know, knowing that yourchild can come to you for the
truth sets that foundation upfor the future, that they can
always come back and ask morequestions.
When we don't give kids theaccurate information first of
(22:22):
all, other people know it andcan share it with them.
They can look it up and so theymay find it on their own or, as
they learn more accurateinformation down the road, then
they have to open up andregrieve with the new
information that they have.
So it kind of delays and kindof messes with the grieving
process in that way.
Erin Nelson (22:43):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you're talking to a
child.
They have to I know you've saidthis so much in training, Brad
they have to step into a firmfoundation that starts with the
truth.
Right, it's like this is yourfirst step of this is actually
what happened.
And we're standing here, righthere, on this firm foundation,
(23:03):
and when you're talking to achild and you know you're
starting with, I mean, maybe,some of their questions that
they have and you're answeringthem as honestly as you can,
according to their developmentalability, and you are being
honest about how addiction andthe illness of addiction affects
(23:25):
a person's mind and affects aperson's body and when they take
too much of a substance, thatit makes their body stop working
.
And if you can start there,then you can be there for any
questions that they may have.
Colleen Montague (23:43):
Erin, you've talked about it as being an
invisible disease and I likethat terminology for a kiddo.
You know to explain to themit's an invisible disease.
You know that really takes overyour mind and your body.
Erin Nelson (23:56):
Yeah, and we talk about how it causes a person to
use more substances than is safefor their body, and it can lead
in death.
So this disease that, just inthese different ways that we may
not fully understand, is thatthey have a craving for more of
(24:17):
this substance than their bodycan handle.
Colleen Montague (24:20):
You could always relate it to how much we
love sugar and the more sugar weeat, the more sugar our body
wants.
Now, sugar is not going tocause the same effect as drugs,
so I don't want to create feararound sugar, but just for them
to understand.
You know, the more you giveyour body, it really likes it.
It's feels and tastes so goodand you get, like you know, kind
(24:41):
of a little energy from it andthen, but really we know too
much sugar isn't good for us andit doesn't make us feel good
but it still tastes so good.
So how could something thattastes so good not actually be
good for us?
Brad Quillen (24:53):
So, with that example, Colleen, the reality is
that the drug took away somepain, or didn't?
It changed how the person feltright, and so they continue to
use these pieces.
And so then there's thequestion of we use the word
called drug and there's theconfusion of because I go to the
doctor to get drugs when I'msick?
(25:14):
Well, I thought these were tomake you better.
So, Erin, how do we tangiblyexplain that to a kiddo?
Between the drug reality andthe medicine or prescription
piece?
Erin Nelson (25:22):
Yeah.
So when we're talking to achild about medication, and
especially when we're talkingabout overdose, we're seeing
that they use more of themedication than the doctor
prescribed or with safety use,and that's how their body
stopped working.
So when we're explaining that,especially with the overdose
piece, to let them know that, ofcourse, when you're taking
(25:44):
something, a medication, it'salways dosed according to your
body weight and according to howyour body will process this
medication.
But when someone takes too much, then their body can stop
working.
Brad Quillen (25:56):
And that's the phrase I think too, that I want
to come back to.
Is they made their body stopworking?
Because I know there's peoplelistening right now.
Well, how do I explain evendeath or died, you know, and
there's that reality.
So that age appropriatelanguage the age appropriate
language.
Erin Nelson (26:12):
And then, when you think about the illness or
substance use disorder, we talkabout it to children, as it's a
brain illness and it sometimescan lead to death.
And so knowing that, just likewith cancer or any other illness
, it sometimes can lead to death, right, and so being able to
(26:32):
explain it as an illness to achild as well.
Brad Quillen (26:35):
Yeah, and doing too much of it will make their
body stop working.
Erin Nelson (26:38):
Right, if yeah, in taking too much medicine.
Brad Quillen (26:42):
Erin, you're given some tangibles and just
concrete ways to explain that,and even on our website at
jessica's house.
org, there's a number ofresources of how to have those
conversations with kids, and so,folks, if you're listening and
need some of that, you can go tothe website.
One of the other things,colleen, we hear from kids in
some of those first weeks,months, is that guilt or that
regret or the thought that if Ionly would have done this, maybe
(27:05):
there would have been adifferent outcome.
Colleen Montague (27:07):
We had a little girl once who shared if
she could call her daddy on thephone.
She wishes she could tell himnot to take those last two pills
.
And that is what our kids, youknow, are holding inside.
They do have that wish, theyhave that wondering.
You know, could I have donesomething different?
Or maybe they really think itwas their fault.
You know, man, I really, Ishould have just asked him
(27:30):
harder, please, please, stopusing.
If only I could have made themstop.
And we always say, you know, bethere for the regrets, listen to
them.
You know it's in their body,it's in their heart.
We don't want to just shut itdown.
You can't take a regret awayfrom somebody but, like Erin
said, those can soften in timeand so after you hear their
(27:51):
regrets, you can follow up with.
You could not have made himstop.
Only he could have done that.
But the addiction made it toohard for him to stop.
There could also be fears thatother people in their life could
have addiction and die fromsubstance use.
You know, brad, you've saidbefore the worst thing has
(28:11):
happened, so couldn't it happenagain?
You know that safety bubble'sbeen burst and parents may even
hold that fear too.
Now you know that they don'twant their child or other child
to struggle with the same.
Erin Nelson (28:23):
Yeah, and I just want to say too that when we're
talking to our kids it's soapparent, you know, as a parent,
we just want to protect themand so when they're expressing
that guilt or regret, as we hear, that not to jump in too fast
but to really allow them toexpress, like Well, some, you
(28:43):
know, I wish, like you said,with the two pills, I wish I
could have told daddy not totake those two pills.
At Jessica's house, you know,we talk a lot about reflection
and mirroring being able to sayyou really wish that you could
have told daddy not to takethose two pills because you want
them to come to you.
Even with these regrets,they're not anchored in correct
(29:04):
information.
Right, we know that there'snothing they could have done to
stop this illness of addiction,but we also want them to be able
to say it and to have a safespace to express these regrets
that they have, Because, like wesaid earlier, it really is part
of grief.
Brad Quillen (29:24):
I'm going to say something that some listeners
might not agree with or they'llbe like no, and you were talking
about protecting kids.
One of the ways that we canprotect kids but also be the
person they come to with thoseregrets and those questions is
to tell them the truth, becausethey're going to hear the truth
somewhere and calling youalluded to it a couple minutes
ago.
(29:44):
They're going to hear fromother people and when they hear
from other people it's usuallygot wrong information in it and
they've heard it third, fourth,fifth hand and then it just
makes it all the more confusing.
But when they hear it fromtheir caregiver, their parent,
their adult, they know that whenI ask questions I'm going to
get the truth and I can alwaysgo to them.
But it's so true with you wantto hear those regrets, to be
able to be with them in thoseregrets.
Erin Nelson (30:05):
Yeah, and all you're doing, Brad and I love
what you're saying here it'slike you're establishing that
trust.
And so they are developing apattern of going to you as their
caregiver with regrets, withtheir questions, with any kind
of concerns, and also theirfears.
One just natural fear that achild will have.
I mean, once this safety bubbleis burst of like, oh, we live
(30:29):
in a family and people,everyone's here, and once
someone dies, you always justnaturally will wonder well, will
someone else die?
I think kids have that fear,but so do adults, and so you
know a child, especially withhow someone dies and we hear
this quite a bit, even in ourgroups where a child loses their
loved one to cancer, they'llwonder about, you know, disease
(30:53):
in their body or will theirparent or other sibling, you
know, get a disease like this.
It's the same thing withaddiction and so knowing that a
child who lives with a parent orsibling with addiction, or
someone a loved one with anaddiction and lives with that
illness, they may wonder ifsomeone else will start using,
(31:13):
get worried about substance use,alcohol use, and wonder, like
maybe a parent's having a glassof wine, and if someone died
from an alcohol overdose, youknow, will that happen?
You know, maybe.
So they could develop somefears around that as well.
Brad Quillen (31:29):
I'll say to parents in group from time to
time that and caregivers thatare in groups that I mean think
of all the big emotions that arein our bodies in this adult
group and the questions and theunexplainable things.
And we have some lifeexperience to see that through
in a lens and we have someunderstanding that comes with
years and being a parent and,you know, doing life for so long
(31:50):
.
But there's these six, seven,eight, nine, 10, 12 year olds
that are downstairs at Jessica'sHouse that have these same big
emotions and big questions, butin a little body.
Erin Nelson (31:59):
Yeah, absolutely, they have these questions and
they also, just as we talkedabout parents, they could
experience rage, right, and alot of complex emotions, because
it's really this mixture oflove for the person and
compassion for the person andmaybe some relief that the
person you know isn't in painanymore, but also really angry
(32:22):
at the person for leaving themthis way, for not overcoming
their addiction, and so theyalso may have some confusion,
just like you mentioned, justlike unanswerable.
I feel like sometimes there area lot of confusing circumstances
with an overdose and they'renot.
People aren't really sure whatexactly happened, because they
(32:44):
could have been alone and theremay not be answers.
So a child may wonder, you know, if they have, if they are of
the age to understand, maybesuicide.
It's like they may wonder wasit an accident?
Was it suicide?
So there may be some confusionthere and there may be some
confusion in the family and, asyou're talking to your child
(33:04):
about the truth, if you don'tknow the truth, it's okay to say
I don't know, and so if thereare some complexities around the
circumstances, it's okay tojust say I wish I had more
information.
I'm going to do everything thatI can to get this information's
and I will let you know as soonas I found out.
Brad Quillen (33:19):
So let me ask you two this, because there are
listeners that are hearing us,there's a hundred questions that
they're worried their kiddo'sgonna ask, how do those
exchanges happen?
Is it cause we've worked withhundreds of families in this,
but we've also helped familieshave those conversations with
their kiddos?
Is it all at once?
(33:39):
Is it over time?
They ask questions?
Is there some relief we canbring to those that are
listening right now that arejust overwhelmed with thinking
of, oh, but I don't have answersto these six or seven questions
, or you know, I'm so nervousthat they ask this.
Colleen Montague (33:54):
Kids ask questions.
They're ready to receiveanswers too that's what we
learned over the years and theydon't always ask them.
You know, in multiplicities,you know they don't ask them all
at once, and so they're goingto ask what they want to know,
and that usually satiates them,and then they'll come back when
they're ready for moreinformation, or maybe they're
going to ask the same questionagain.
They need to hear that answerover and over again as they try
(34:16):
to make sense of it.
And so it's okay to enter intothat space with them, because
even if you don't have theanswers, like Erin said, you can
say I don't know.
If I find out, I'll let youknow.
There might be some things wejust don't know the answer to.
Brad Quillen (34:31):
So, Erin, let me ask you this question, because
kids might not know how to evenphrase this, but it's something
that they run into at school orwith friends or sports teams or
dance class or whatever it maybe.
There's this how do I answerthe question to my buddies that
ask, or my friends, how did mydad die?
Or my person die, but they'rescared to say anything about the
(34:54):
reality of how they died,because they ask us a lot of
questions but then they don'tknow how to answer those
questions when they're asked.
Erin Nelson (35:02):
Yeah, and I think, as parents, as we model this
openness about talking about theillness of addiction and how
this affects your brain and thechoices that you make, that when
kids are asked these questionssometimes they're just naturally
going to in your family aboutthe illness of addiction, that
(35:30):
they have words to say and thatit's natural to feel embarrassed
about how someone diessometimes, but being able to say
that my dad died from theillness of addiction, so having
terminology in your family andtalking about what that looks
like, can really help them tohave some just words to talk to
(35:53):
their friends about.
And that it's natural, as justas they come to you with their
fears, they can also come to youwith their sense of shame.
Brad Quillen (36:02):
Because it's a reality of all humans.
When someone dies, we want toknow how.
Erin Nelson (36:07):
We always want to know how that's a survival skill
, right?
I mean, knowing how someonedies helps keep us alive, right.
And so our brain always seeksan answer to how someone died,
and so that's always.
I just had.
I heard about someone that hadbeen in an accident and I just
needed to like kind of envisionthis in my mind, like where were
(36:29):
they going and what happened?
Did they call for help?
And you know, you just wonderin your own mind about, you know
what happened.
And so, as kids, as you learnabout how someone dies, it's
just a natural question.
It's not a bad question on theplayground If they hear that
someone's dad died, or siblingor mom just to say how did they
(36:53):
die.
And so equipping your child onhow to answer that is really
important.
Brad Quillen (36:57):
So we're asking the same questions that kids are
asking.
Erin Nelson (37:00):
Oh yeah, absolutely , it's just a natural question.
I mean, just think about it.
You search the headlines, youhear like your favorite actor
died at 85, you know Well howdid he die, you know?
And so you wonder, just anatural curiosity.
Brad Quillen (37:15):
And when there's no reason given on the news,
what do we do as adults?
Erin Nelson (37:19):
Oh, you got to dig in.
Brad Quillen (37:20):
Speculate.
Erin Nelson (37:21):
Right, speculate, that's true.
Brad Quillen (37:23):
We do the exact same thing.
Erin Nelson (37:24):
Absolutely, you just do it.
Brad Quillen (37:27):
And that's what these kiddos are doing.
Colleen Montague (37:28):
Yeah, and so that's why, if we can prepare
our kids ahead of time, you know, hey, there are other families
that don't.
They haven't gone through whatwe've gone through, so they may
not be able to understand.
But when people ask youquestions, you get to choose how
to answer them, and so if youkind of have some ideas ahead of
time, that can help you feelmore ready for those questions,
depending on how you're feelingwith them, or the person who's
asking how comfortable you feelwith them.
You could tell them, "My dadtook too many pills and he
died", or you could say, "My daddied, and that's all I want to
say right now.
" And so really empowering yourkid to get to have control over
(38:08):
what they want to share and towho they want to share, Because
sometimes people are curious forthe wrong reasons, not helpful
reasons, but then there arethose that are curious but
they're going to still be withyou in it.
Brad Quillen (38:22):
"control think that's so good to have them help
them be prepared, so they'renot caught off guard because
they're going to be asked.
Erin Nelson (38:28):
Yeah, they'll be asked and it's okay for them to
even say it's hard for me totalk about.
Just be honest, you know thatmaybe they're not.
They don't want to talk aboutit right now, and it's okay to
say that as well.
Colleen Montague (38:41):
And I always like to relate it, even just to
myself, if I'm, you know,empowering my kids for something
, I can share an experience I'vehad, you know.
Oh, you know, I had that happento me and this is what I
decided to say, so that theyknow they're not alone in it,
that you, as their parent, arebeing asked you know the same
(39:01):
things from others around them.
Erin Nelson (39:03):
f, and I think just after having just a lot of
different types of deaths in ourfamily.
It's just awkward sometimes.
That's just the truth of it.
Brad Quillen (39:13):
Just baseline.
Erin Nelson (39:14):
Just baseline, you know, it's just awkward.
I mean, you just someone diesand you have to explain it and
some people don't really knowwhat to do with it and you're
like, okay, that that's justlife, that's just, you know,
people don't always know what tosay.
They say silly things and justknowing having that conversation
with your child, that sometimesit kind of feels bad when
(39:36):
people don't know what to say,and but we can talk about that
together.
Colleen Montague (39:40):
And you may not like the answer you gave in
the moment.
You know, maybe you just didn'tknow what to say and you feel
like what you said was awkward,and that's okay.
It teaches us for the next timeof what would have felt better
and what we want to try nexttime someone asks.
Brad Quillen (39:54):
One time somebody in group said you know, people
talk to me about how my husbanddied and it's just clunky.
Erin Nelson (39:59):
It's just clunky.
You know absolutely grief isclunky.
Brad Quillen (40:03):
One of those grocery store conversations.
Erin Nelson (40:04):
Yeah, grief is clunky.
Brad Quillen (40:06):
Yep, we look back and go.
Oh, I sure could have said thatbetter.
Yeah, or that someone walks upto us.
You can just see theuncomfortableness in them and
you know what they're going toask in the world of grief.
And it's you know, it's justclunky.
Erin Nelson (40:19):
It really is.
Brad Quillen (40:20):
Hey, as we kind of wrap up today, Colleen, I want
you to leave our listeners witha practical way that they can
kind of give their kidssomething tangible to process
with some of their emotions, toreflect a bit, but then also a
way that they could askquestions through this exercise
that you're about to share.
Would you mind sharing aboutthe wishing flag idea?
Colleen Montague (40:39):
Erin shared earlier in the episode about how
we just want to be there forour kids wishings and wonderings
, and one way you can give thempermission to share those is
through this activity with them,so with your child, you could
create a wishing flag and thatcould be done, if you wanted to
get fancy with it, on a littlecanvas flag or a simple piece of
(41:01):
paper that you could hangsomewhere after.
But the three prompts are Iwonder, I wish, I hope.
And so, asking your child, youknow, what do you wonder?
And letting them fill in theblank, you could do your own
flag alongside them what do youwish and what do you hope.
And so, again, we can'tnecessarily change the outcome,
(41:21):
we can't necessarily grant thosewishes, perhaps, but we can be
there to ask and hear and holdthose with them.
Brad Quillen (41:30):
Colleen, Erin, thank you so much for this today
.
This is a really tough topicand, for those of you listening,
be sure to visit jessicashouse.
org for more grief resources andif you have other topics or
questions you'd like us to coveron this podcast, we welcome
your email at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us next timefor another episode of When
(41:52):
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (41:53):
Until then, we wish you well.
Jessica's House is a children'sbereavement center located in
California's Central Valleysince 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
(42:14):
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
(42:36):
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
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