March 11, 2025 • 43 mins
Welcome to the When Grief Comes Home podcast. We're glad you're here. This podcast supports parents who are grieving a spouse, partner, or child while helping their children who are living through the loss of a parent or sibling. With personal grief stories and professional guidance, we offer parents practical tips for supporting their child who is grieving while caring for their own grief.
In this episode, Brad, Colleen, and Erin talk about grieving a child and the many ways a family changes after the death. Partner relationships shift as each person finds their own way to heal. Sibling dynamics change as each child's role in the family is reshaped. Future milestones are grieved as families face the loss of what will never be.
The loss of a child is a loss of a piece of yourself. Today, we discuss the importance of honoring your own grief while embracing the differences in how each family member mourns. We also explore the nuances of grief and mourning, emphasizing the need for expression and companionship during the healing process.
Please subscribe to the When Grief Comes Home podcast and leave us a review. The more stars, reviews, and downloads the show receives, the more parents and families in grief can find support.
Order the book When Grief Comes Home https://a.co/d/ijaiP5L
For more information on Jessica’s House or for additional resources, please go to jessicashouse.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gary Shriver (00:00):
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Now let's go to the team asthey share grief resources and
(00:48):
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (01:01):
Well, hello, hello , it's Brad from Jessica's House
.
Today, we're talking aboutgrieving your child and the many
ways you and your family willface changes after the death.
You are left holding theenormity of all you will face
with them missing from yourfuture.
Well, hello, Colleen, Erin,it's good to see you guys today.
And for those of you listening,today we're talking about when
your child dies.
(01:22):
It's a hard topic and so, justso you know that, that's where
we're headed today.
But as we talk about that,there's a number of things that
we're going to get into today.
But, Erin, I was going to askyou and I didn't tell you this
in our pre-show meeting butcould you just tell us a little
bit about your son Carter, who'sgoing to kind of bring us into
talking about when you have thedeath of a child.
(01:42):
Tell us a little bit about thatguy.
Erin Nelson (01:44):
Oh, I'll tell you a little bit about Carter.
Yes, I would love to, and we'recoming up on what we call in
our family his heaven day andjust thinking about him.
You know Carter came into ourlife and, as so many of our
listeners know just my story oflosing my husband, Tyler, and
also my mom, and then I gotremarried to Bryan and Carter.
(02:09):
We also lost our first baby,and so Carter came into our life
after a really long season ofloss and he was just pure joy,
like truly.
It was just a time of my lifeand a time of our life where we
were just so glad to just havean addition to our family.
(02:34):
At that time, we had Cody wasalready almost seven I think and
Cassie was turning 10.
And so it was just so nice tohave some just this little baby,
and I'll never forget just hewas a real bright light and so
(02:55):
he was just a lot of fun.
He was funny, like right away.
We noticed when he was atoddler that when we I remember
one time, Bryan and I, were justsitting on like his room floor
on the carpet and he didsomething and we both laughed at
him and then he noticed that wewere laughing and then he did
(03:16):
it like again and again and thatkind of was him.
He was an entertainer, he wasjust a lot of fun and he grew up
to love music and golf and carsand he just brought just a lot
of life.
We um, when we describe Carter,we have this word gusto, because
no matter what he did, he justbrought gusto.
(03:38):
From the moment he was born hehad a lot of enthusiasm.
So no matter what he wastalking about it could have been
like a taco.
It's just that he was very,very excited.
And so I would come home fromwork and he would be making some
concoction, something fordinner and just say, mom, mom, I
(03:59):
just wait till you taste this.
And he did smash burgers andjust all kinds of things, and so
he just was fun.
He was just so much fun, yeah.
Brad Quillen (04:08):
And I I think of Carter, and we've been involved
with you guys and our familiestogether for years and but
always something with his hands.
That was one of the things thatI'd look back and think about
whether it was working on carsor playing golf or guitar or
piano like he was always doingsomething with his hands and you
say smash burgers, which ishilarious because you're out
barbecuing.
Erin Nelson (04:26):
But yeah, he always was.
He had it all the ideas and hewoke up with a purpose and just
forever he just had a lot ofenergy and so he always was
walking through the house andmaking a plan and doing just
really fun, whether he wasbuilding something or making
something, he was just.
.
.
Brad Quillen (04:45):
Tearing something apart.
Erin Nelson (04:46):
Right, he was really good at that.
Yeah, so he was, he was just areal gift yeah.
Brad Quillen (04:53):
And, as you said, the anniversary is coming up
here in a couple of weeks as wesit together, and that brings
you back to some of thoseintense feelings, too, when a
child dies yeah, it really does.
Erin Nelson (05:06):
Um, my son Cody, he said, mom, I can feel it, you
know I would.
Just, we were at soccer onSaturday and he said, sure can
feel it in the air when it'sgetting closer.
And yeah, I think you just feelthat moment, like you start
feeling that time.
Or you got the phone call andyou start feeling it in the air
(05:27):
and yeah, you, just in justthose, the intensity of your
feelings can really increase.
Brad Quillen (05:34):
I've heard that from a lot of parents over the
years that there's physicalchanges that they feel coming on
.
Erin Nelson (05:41):
Yeah.
Brad Quillen (05:42):
And there's one gentleman I think of that's
volunteered here a number ofyears and he'll talk about that
and it's been 25, 26 years.
His son was killed in a caraccident and still we'll talk
about that the middle ofSeptember through almost
Thanksgiving.
It's just different.
Erin Nelson (05:57):
Really tough.
Yeah, absolutely, and just allthose feelings intensify and,
yeah, you just feel it so muchmore.
And it really speaks to yourlove for them and how much
they're missing from you.
Brad Quillen (06:10):
They're a piece of you.
Erin Nelson (06:11):
Absolutely.
Brad Quillen (06:12):
And Colleen, you lead a group here for adults
that have lost a child and youhear that in group often just
that desire and that longing andthat deep want to find.
Colleen Montague (06:30):
Absolutely, just the sheer pain that they're
in is just palpable in the roomand shared pain, for that
matter.
I notice a lot of anger isthere too.
Yeah, just so mad that they'regone and that they couldn't be
saved.
A lot of times there's the fearof just not wanting to forget
them and by that, the specificsof them, just what they sounded
like when they talked, whattheir laugh sounded like, their
(06:53):
smell or their touch.
They're so scared they're goingto forget it.
And one time a mom said youknow, I can tell you all the
stories and I can show youpictures or videos, but you will
never know the true essence ofthem.
Yeah, I can never share thatwith anybody, I can't explain
that.
And she said I feel so bad foryou because you'll never know
(07:16):
that.
You know, speaking to me,that's so true.
Brad Quillen (07:19):
Yeah, and there's those moments where we're just
in those lows and the dark andnothing seems to help.
Just I try this or I try thatand it feels like the repeated.
Well, that didn't help, thatdidn't make me feel different.
Erin Nelson (07:34):
Yeah, I think the intensity of losing a child.
It's an experience where youjust want a little bit of relief
from your pain and you searchfor that.
And I remember after Carterdied, we had an Airbnb that we
ran over by the ocean and so wewould drive to that to go
(07:54):
restock supplies or whatever itwould be, and I would just think
, well, maybe if I get a littlecloser to the ocean I'll feel
better.
And it didn't help, and I thenI would say, well, maybe I just
need to go home and I would gethome.
And it didn't help and therewas really so little that I
could do to find relief otherthan maybe just expressing and
(08:15):
crying.
And yeah, I just, I remember somany times.
I remember one time where I justdrove to the grocery store and
I just felt so dark in my soul,like it was such a pressure, it
was such a, it was just likeyou're almost falling, like
that's all I can describe.
It's like you're just kind ofin a free fall, and I just felt
(08:37):
this, like feeling like that.
And I went to the grocery storeand I remember just like
looking in the aisles, likemaybe there's something here
that would make me feel better,like my favorite chip or like
some chocolate or something.
And I remember standing in lineat the checkout and just kind
of wiping my tears, you know,with my jacket sleeve, and
driving back.
(08:58):
And when I got back there was afriend waiting for me on my
porch and I walked up the stepsand she just like just held me
so close and just let me cry andreally looked at my eyes and
somehow I just knew she was justwitnessing that and I did find
relief in just someone else'sembrace and sometimes just
(09:18):
knowing that you have somebodyelse that's holding that with
you can really help.
I was surprised how much justhugs physically gave me strength
and how I really needed thatlike never before.
Brad Quillen (09:34):
Colleen, we talk about this idea of companioning
at Jessica's House a lot, andcan you share a little bit about
that because, Erin, that's kindof what you're speaking about,
that that friend that was onyour porch didn't try and change
it, couldn't fix it, just satwith you in it and was present
to the dark and the ugly and allthe feelings.
Colleen Montague (09:54):
Exactly, and what you're speaking to, Erin,
is just that that the onlyremedy for your pain in that
moment was just to grieve andfor you being held up literally
by your friend and then alsojust leaning in to whatever felt
right or feels right, and sothat can be just screams, anger,
(10:16):
moaning or crying.
Erin Nelson (10:18):
Yeah, I think what we're searching for is home, you
know, and everything feels sodifferent.
We just want back what we hadand that energy of not being
able to feel settled and notbeing able to find home.
It feels so bad and the onlyway to move that energy of that
(10:40):
emptiness is just to yeah, likeyou said, is to get it out of
your body and cry and, like yousaid, express the anger.
I remember just this very likehot emotions, like even just
seeing other people with theirkids and, you know, having kids
go through milestones that weresimilar to what Carter would
(11:03):
have done, and being just madand like I don't want anything
to happen to my friend's kids,of course, but like just
thinking like he should be here,you know and you live with that
of just that longing for themand just that longing for home
that you'll never have again.
Colleen Montague (11:19):
And to force your mourning to be neat and
tidy is an unachievable thought.
It's just, it's messy and it'sbig and it's ugly and scary, but
that is what you may need inthat moment.
Erin Nelson (11:33):
And just to admit like see, I just said it out
loud, like I'm jealous.
Brad Quillen (11:37):
You just said the word mourning.
What do you mean by the wordmourning?
Because some people might'veheard that and thought what's
that?
Grief?
Isn't that just grief?
Colleen Montague (11:44):
Yeah, that's a good point, Brad.
We talk about the differencebetween grief and mourning.
Those are two words we useinterchangeably as a society,
but they're actually verydifferent.
Grief is the way that your bodyfeels after a death.
It's just automatic responsesthat your body feels.
And then mourning is what youdo with those feelings and the
(12:05):
energy of grief in your body,how you get that and move that
out of your body, thoseexpressions of grief.
And so that is where the tearsand the fits or the cries out or
talking being held by somebodywalking it out, all the
different things that we talkabout here in the podcast that
those are acts of mourning andthat is what can bring true
(12:28):
healing to you in a moment.
You'll never be healed, ofcourse, but it can help you in
those, in those times.
Brad Quillen (12:37):
And some days you need to scream and yell and kick
and stomp and some days youneed to cry and be hugged.
I can think of years and yearsago.
I had a mom and group that usedto I may have told the story
used to drive around the blockin her car and she'd play heavy
metal music and she would drivearound the block screaming after
her son had died.
And one day she was drivingaround the block and noticed
(13:00):
that people were now watchingher that never would watch
before when she would do, andmost of the neighborhood knew
what had happened.
And she told the story that shedidn't realize when she was
driving around her block, whenpeople were watching her, she
didn't realize that the windowswere down in the car and so she
was screaming around theneighborhood and people were
coming out to make sure she wasokay and they were very gracious
and supportive of her.
(13:21):
She said so I had to find a newneighborhood to drive and go
scream, but that's what sheneeded, and I first I was like
screaming, okay, that's, thatwas her avenue of letting it out
.
And even we see that you know,within the first few days of the
death too, there's a lot ofscreaming and moaning of that
protest.
Erin Nelson (13:41):
I think it can go on because you know, sometimes
you don't even, there are nowords, there's nothing you can
do.
But sometimes you just stand inyour very own kitchen and just
have there's nothing, justexcept for like moans and cries
and just getting whatever youcan out of your body.
Getting whatever you can out ofyour body, and sometimes you
(14:03):
just really feel like you mightnot be able to breathe again
because you're having such longout breaths and it's like just
getting that out, that allthat's inside of you.
Like you said, Colleen, withthe grief and then letting that
come out of you.
Brad Quillen (14:16):
You talked about not being able to breathe and
there's people that in grouphave said this over the years,
so let's put this on the tablethe physical elements that
happen with the body and,Colleen, Erin, you and I we've
all seen this in group withadults over the years.
Colleen Montague (14:28):
Absolutely, we have.
I've heard so many parents inmy adult groups talk about
needing to go to the doctor inthe months following the death
because they're having heartpains, chest pains and really
they're concerned that they'vegot some heart troubles now and
they're not they usually don't.
It's actually, it's grief, it'sreally literally a broken heart
(14:51):
and just the sheer pain comingthrough in that way somatically,
how we feel that in our body,the tightness within our bodies,
our shoulders, just thefeelings in our stomach just in
knots or nauseous or emptiness.
Erin Nelson (15:05):
Yeah, and just that deep weariness, just being so
tired and something that we talkabout and I know we've said
before but kind of that idea ofdrinking, you know, just making
sure you're staying hydrated andmaking sure that if you do get
sleepy, to try to take a nap,and really taking extra good
(15:27):
care of yourself.
And we have an acronym that weuse around here, which is just
DEER, which is just drink andthen make sure you're eating
just a little bit of food andjust a walk.
So the next E is exercise andthen rest, and so whatever we
can do to take really good careof ourself in a practical way
(15:48):
can ease some of those symptoms,because sometimes, just even
with like a headache, you mayhave needed a little more
hydration and because our thirstmechanism is suppressed when
we're in grief and in trauma.
So we have to really actuallydrink even when we may not feel
thirsty.
Brad Quillen (16:08):
Colleen, you just brought up a word that we didn't
talk about.
But I want to ask a questionabout a somatic.
But it also goes along withsomething.
Erin, you said earlier today tome that with Carter's Heaven
Day coming here in the next fewdays and weeks, that there's a
different feel, and so the bodyremembers and I'm going to use
the words of body keeps score,and let you guys kind of talk
(16:30):
about not only the somatic thingthat happens to us physically a
little bit, but also the seasonwhen it comes back around.
Colleen Montague (16:36):
Yeah, it goes without saying that the loss of
a child is traumatic.
That is one of the mostincredible traumas somebody can
experience, and our bodies arereally affected when we
experience trauma, and so traumacomes back, not necessarily as
(16:59):
a memory, but a body sensation,and so we can learn to start to
listen to our bodies torecognize those cues that pop up
when our body is possibly, youknow, screaming for attention,
so to speak.
Brad Quillen (17:15):
So true.
Erin Nelson (17:16):
I just think about even how our body can be a
resource and after a trauma andyou know some people that have
experienced a parent who hasexperienced the death of their
child may notice that maybe theyare even shaking, like after
that happened and our bodies canreally take care of us in that
way, and there are ways that wecan discharge trauma out of our
(17:36):
body, and sometimes you maynotice that you're shaking, just
not to be overly concerned.
If your nervous system istaking care of itself in that
way, it's really a way that you,your body, comes back to
feeling calm again is to shakeand to have some of these
sensations, and so we can reallylook to our bodies to keep us
(18:00):
safe.
Brad Quillen (18:02):
You say that we have a mutual friend that will
often rock in meetings.
It's just her way of just beingin the moment and present but
being attuned to what's going on.
But it's also a comfort for hertoo.
Erin Nelson (18:15):
Absolutely, and just anything that we can do to
go side to side to just findcomfort in our bodies.
It's so important that we startto learn what we need to feel
safe on a sensory level.
I remember having a weightedblanket after Carter died and
eating some of my favorite foodsand just being able to really
(18:38):
take good care of myself in myphysical space and knowing that
I needed that a lot.
Colleen Montague (18:44):
And over time, you're going to learn what
works for you, and there's some,there's some power in that.
You know you had to try thosethings on, so to speak.
You know, will this weightedblanket help?
Will these snacks help?
Yes, and then I'm sure youfound some things that don't
work for you, and so you'rerelearning yourself, this new
version of you, which is nowthis person who's living in this
(19:06):
humongous loss.
Brad Quillen (19:08):
Erin, I was going to ask you, we kind of touched
on it, but just to make it clear, the only way or remedy for
this pain of losing your childis to grieve, and people have to
go through that.
Erin Nelson (19:20):
Yeah, there's no way to get to the other side.
And I always think about whatGary Sitzer says and he, after
he lost his child and his wifeand his mom, he talked about
going into the darkness, likewalking into the east to find
the sunrise, but he had beentrying to kind of go towards
like stay in the light.
(19:41):
We have to turn and go and wehave to allow ourselves to go
into that darkness.
And I remember, after Carterdied, I did feel like I said
like I was in that free fall andI texted a friend and said I
feel like I'm falling into thedarkness and she texted back you
(20:01):
know the darkness will hold youand knowing that I could trust
the grief process, I've learnedto really trust the grief
process, if you go into it, yousurrender to it.
It, in my experience, justmimics so much of nature, with
(20:21):
waves, with the storms that come.
You know rain never lastsforever.
Right, it never lasts forever.
And so, as you, just trustingthe break in the weather,
trusting that you won't alwaysfeel like you do in this very
moment, you will get to the nextmoment and you may not really
think you very moment, you willget to the next moment and you
(20:42):
may not really think you will,but you will.
Brad Quillen (20:44):
And I know you were, Erin, you're speaking of
seasons, but some people it'smoment by moment.
You know, 10 minute block by 10minute block, that that are
listening today too.
Colleen Montague (20:53):
Yeah, and as time goes on and you face these
little moments again and again,you're really building new
muscles with which to hold thispain.
And, Erin, you've said beforethey were never muscles you
wanted to build, but you are andso you'll be able to hold it as
time goes on.
But it takes that care and thatintention of yourself along the
(21:18):
way.
Erin Nelson (21:18):
It's so true and like when you're talking about
holding, I think about that wejust do carry grief, you know,
forward.
It's not like we get over it,there's no closure, but we're
carrying it with us.
And I heard someone talk aboutjust how their parenting their
child who's no longer here, justas much as they are their other
(21:39):
children, because just as muchof that energy is divided, so,
as they're feeding and nurturingand, you know, taking care of
their child's everyday needs,that you know the child who's
living, they're spending just asmuch of that energy with that
love that they have, that havethat the grief represents their
(22:02):
love and that's going towardstheir child that they're missing
so much.
Brad Quillen (22:07):
Yeah, and it is a friend of ours, Ron, that
volunteers here at Jessica'sHouse and I've learned so much
from him over the years.
His son died quite a few yearsago and he shared an example of
when his son died.
It felt like a boulder was onhis chest and he talks about.
I couldn't breathe and I hadtightness in my chest and all
these things and as he grievedthe boulder got smaller and
(22:30):
smaller over time.
Nothing immediate, nothingovernight, you know, but it took
quite a few seasons to walkthrough and years to grieve and
work through it.
But he said, I still have thatboulder every day and it sits on
my chest.
It's not as big, but it's apart of me and it's an everyday
part of me.
Erin Nelson (22:48):
Yeah, and I've heard him talk about that and he
says sometimes it gets so smallhe can put it in his pocket.
Brad Quillen (22:53):
Yeah, it even goes with him.
Erin Nelson (22:55):
Yeah, and it just takes him with them, and so you
never know how, like what, thesize of that rock will be right?
Brad Quillen (23:02):
Well, Erin and Colleen, thank you, thank you,
thank you.
This is so good, so hard, butso good to have this
conversation with the both ofyou, and we're going to take a
quick break.
We'll be back.
We're going to talk a littleabout some of the dynamics and
the changes that happen in ourfamily relationships when
there's been a death of a child.
Gary Shriver (23:17):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(23:39):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media,and if you have any questions
(24:01):
or topics that you'd like us toexplore in a future episode,
just send us an email to info@jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (24:09):
Welcome back.
And as we come back, talkingabout when you've lost a child,
one of the things we hear oftenhere at Jessica's House as
facilitators, is I'm asked howmany children do I have, how do
I respond to that?
What do I say?
So, Erin, Colleen, what's youradvice to that question?
Erin Nelson (24:26):
We know this comes up so much at Jessica's House
when parents are asked thatquestion and it's so hard and I
think it always takes you alittle off guard, no matter how
many times you've answered it.
And I think for parents we havethese conversations, like it
may be different every time,kind of depends on how you're
(24:47):
feeling in that moment and howmuch you want to share.
And sometimes, like for ourfamily, like I'll just say four
and kind of end that, but thensome people will ask more
questions oh, where do they live?
And so sometimes you can gointo it a little bit, you can
kind of gauge the conversation.
Sometimes you could wrap it upa little bit, and I had a mom
(25:07):
tell me recently that she likesto say I have four, and if
somebody pushes and then she'llsay you know, yeah, one of them
isn't living, and if the personis like oh, I'm so sorry, she's
like you know what I really liketo talk about him, and so just
to give that person that kind ofawkward moment for you know
that can be just to say hey,thanks for asking me that and I
(25:31):
like to talk about him.
Other times it might be reallyhard to talk about and so being
able to just even say, you know,whatever it is, that you feel
in that moment that maybe youjust want to say to because you
only have two with you at thattime and you don't want to go
into it and it's okay.
Brad Quillen (25:49):
And so, whatever it is, but kind of thinking
ahead of time on how you want toanswer that question, I'm so
glad you brought up the fact ofwhen you respond with one's no
longer living or one's inheaven, awkward dynamic that
just got introduced into theconversation that you were
having and you can see thediscomfort, I'm assuming, in
other people when you have tosay those kinds of things and so
(26:09):
just to be aware of that andhave that line I think is great.
Erin Nelson (26:12):
Yeah, just to think about that.
And you know, and I'm alsothinking, you know, for our
listeners today, and maybe thatwas just it was, it was their
only child and maybe they getasked that question how many
children do you have?
And maybe they don't.
You know they no longer havetheir child and so you know what
does that mean for them.
(26:33):
When they just when you, lostyour only child and that can be
really hard because you knowjust finding support for that
and thinking about you know whatthat means for your family you
lose so much of your futurebecause of as you think about
grandchildren and I know parentshere at Jessica's House have
(26:56):
talked about like all thatthey've lost for their future
when they lost their only child,whether that's weddings that
they were looking forward to,graduations, and that's really
hard.
Brad Quillen (27:07):
There is that being robbed of the future piece
that comes in when we have achild that's died and, Colleen,
that comes up in group often.
As I said a little bit earlierin the podcast, that you lead a
group that's for those parentsthat have had the deaths of a
child.
Colleen Montague (27:20):
I was thinking when you were talking, Erin,
just about how the dynamics ofthe family shift so much after
the death of a child.
Just among the sibling orderwith your other living children,
you know, the one that maybewas the middle child is now the
oldest, what that looks like.
Or maybe the one that was theyoungest is now the oldest and
(27:42):
the only in the family.
And do you consider yourself afamily of four still?
Or is it a family of three?
And there's no right or wronganswer, but we're just posing
all the different shifts inidentity that you're probably
going through right now and whatwe've heard from other families
too.
Brad Quillen (27:59):
Well, everything changes when that happens the
rhythm of mornings getting outthe door with school and all
those things, and maybe it wasthe kiddo that helped get kids
moving, or it was the one thatwas behind, or the position of
who sits where in the car, justall those things change when
there's a death and those familyrelationships and dynamics
change.
Colleen Montague (28:18):
Yeah, and the energy of your home is different
.
You know, Erin, you talkedabout with Carter like the gusto
is that's kind of gone in yourfamily right now.
Erin Nelson (28:27):
Yeah, and he really did add so much spark and so we
noticed even right, Brad.
Brad Quillen (28:34):
Spark is one word.
Erin Nelson (28:35):
Yeah, and something that we noticed, because you
know my daughter, who was 17 atthe time, she was just naturally
quiet and how dinners changed,and he was always the one that
would bring up a subject that wealways, you know, would kind of
(28:56):
go around the table and talkabout, and it would always be
something controversial orsomething kind of more exciting
to talk about.
And we just noticed how muchjust the tenor of the home
changed because it just got realquiet, and how much different
it is.
Brad Quillen (29:11):
Hey, Colleen, a minute ago we talked about
things that are coming down thefuture and you were speaking to
something in our pre-showmeeting, about something parents
don't look forward to.
That you've learned out of yoursibling loss groups.
Colleen Montague (29:22):
We hear so often about how hard anniversary
dates are those approaching,whether it was the anniversary
of the death or maybe thebirthday.
But another thing that isreally scary for parents is when
their other living children arenearing the age that their
other child was when they died.
And so one mom said that herchild died at eight years and
(29:46):
four months old and her otherchild was turning eight soon,
and she said I just have to getpast that eight year four month
mark and then I can breathe.
But that was looming for her,and she had experienced it
already with her other child too.
Brad Quillen (30:01):
There's so many dynamics that change when we've
had a death of a child and we'vetalked about those things that
are focused around the child andsome of the changes.
But, Erin, there's a lot ofchanges and things that look
different between husband andwife and spouse, and all those
things after one of yourchildren has died.
Erin Nelson (30:18):
When a child dies, the dynamics with your
relationship with your spouse ora partner can be really
different and everybody has adifferent personality and a
different way to heal and sowithin sometimes a marriage and
just to speak from my own lifewith after Carter died like
(30:42):
Bryan, after Carter died, Bryanneeded a lot of friends, he
needed a lot of people aroundhim and he needed to talk a lot
and have that energy.
And I remember him just likesitting outside around a
campfire really and just havinghis buddies over and he really
needed that.
And I just wanted to be inCarter's room, I wanted it to be
(31:02):
quiet, I just needed very, veryclose friends or family with me
and I needed just a lot of timeto just be by myself.
And so so much of the dynamicsand we've heard just different
ways that people heal.
I think some of the guidelinesor just advice that I've heard
(31:27):
from people right away after achild dies is to just give each
other just that grace thatyou're going to do it
differently.
Something else that I noticehappens is and we hear this in
group is that one person hasreally wrestled through a
(31:48):
certain time of their grief andmaybe they've just had a good
cry and they're just feelingtemporarily just some relief,
and they may throw out this idealike hey, maybe we could go to
dinner tonight.
And the other person, the otherparent, is like there's just no
way I could ever even thinkabout going out right now and
(32:09):
just the thought that not onlyare you going to do it
differently, but you'll befeeling different all the time,
and so as your grief kind ofhits you at different times, you
have to also kind of navigatethat as well and give each other
the space that you might needat that moment.
Brad Quillen (32:29):
And we all react to pain differently.
Erin Nelson (32:31):
We all react to pain differently, and so it's so
unique for each person, and itchanges from moment to moment,
and so that's why familydynamics can be so tricky after
someone dies.
Brad Quillen (32:45):
I can imagine just driving down the road there's
different things that wouldbring up emotion and parents as
they're both riding in the samecar because it's a different
relationship, and again they seesomething that reminds them of
their child that maybe doesn'tremind the other of their kiddo.
Erin Nelson (33:01):
Yeah, and being able to communicate that, just
to say I can't do that right now.
Brad Quillen (33:06):
Yeah.
Erin Nelson (33:07):
Or I really need to do this right now and to allow
each other.
You know, it's like it's almostlike a dance that you have
never wanted to do, right, butit's like you're not holding on
too tightly, you're just likeletting each other go a little
bit to go and individuallygrieve and do it differently, as
(33:27):
you need to.
Colleen Montague (33:29):
Also being aware that you're surrounded by
a family who's grieving yourspouse is grieving, your kids
are grieving, but making surethat you still have the space to
do so yourself.
I think we can easily getcaught up in caring for
everybody else, but it's stillso important to go into that
(33:49):
space for yourself as well.
Brad Quillen (33:51):
And, as you say, going into different spaces.
It makes me think of when, asparents, we get back into a
little bit of rhythm and gettingout.
It's hard to see others or evenfamily members that have kiddos
the same age or were doingsimilar things that your kid
used to do, and that's a hardfeeling and there's a lot of
(34:12):
judgment on ourselves about whyI should be excited for them.
But yet it just hurts and youdon't want to maybe be there.
Erin Nelson (34:19):
I think watching kids your child who died's age
grow up and meet thesemilestones, and how bad it can
feel to watch that happen andyou would never wish harm on
anybody, obviously, but it'sjust like, why do they, you know
, why do they get to live and doall these things that my child
(34:39):
didn't?
And so that's really hard andto just be able to express that.
And I had a parent tell me onetime that her friends and family
stopped inviting her like tothe birthday parties because her
child died and even though thebirthday parties were so painful
(35:00):
and it was so hard to be there,she still wanted to be invited,
just to be invited.
And so it's also you can haveother people that are playing
this protection game so thatthey won't add any more pain to
you, but then it actuallyintensifies your pain because
you feel more alone, you feeldifferent and so being able to
(35:20):
teach your community what youneed like please still invite me
when you see me, give me a hugand tell me you love me, just
keep entering, and it is hardfor me, like you can put it out
there, but you still need yourcommunity.
Brad Quillen (35:35):
ut it safe to say that jealousy is a real piece of
that?
Erin Nelson (35:38):
Yeah, I think jealousy is a big part of a
grief emotion, right, and it'senvy, it's jealousy, it's the
unfairness of life.
It's not fair that their childis living and yours isn't, and
being able to speak, that youknow why would that be and how
confusing that is and why youand you know what really is
(36:02):
going on, and so I just thinkbeing able to express just
feelings about the injustice ofit all.
Brad Quillen (36:10):
Which reminds me that that's why it's so
important for us to have supportwith those that understand and
kind of get what it's like tohave a loss like that.
Colleen Montague (36:19):
That's why our peer support groups are so
powerful.
Just to be surrounded by otherswho get it, and you may not
have a peer support group inyour area, but how can you
surround yourself with peoplewho get it, maybe through their
own experience, or who arewilling to just be a companion
during this time and comealongside you?
(36:39):
The reality is your spouse orpartner, you know they may
usually be that person for youthat you go to when you're
having a hard day, so to speak,but now they're holding that
heaviness as well, and so that'sthe importance of, you can't be
each other's everything duringthis.
You probably need to have otherpeople outside.
(37:01):
One thing that we shared in ourbook is the importance of
carrying your loss with others.
That it's too much to holdalone or just between the two of
you, you and your husband andso the importance of seeking
support outside of yourrelationship can help you both
feel surrounded by the layers ofreinforcement that you need,
and that's exactly what youtalked about, Erin, with you and
(37:23):
Bryan.
Brad Quillen (37:24):
Colleen, hearing you talk makes me think of the
countless parents we've heardover the years that have lost a
child.
We'll say something to theeffect of I'm trying to make
sure everybody else is okay andby the end of the day, there's
no time left for me or for us asa husband and wife.
What does that look like for?
(37:45):
For those that are grieving,that are listening, dads and
moms that are, that arelistening.
Erin Nelson (37:49):
Yeah, to again go back to my story and Bryan and I
and how we kind of did this waswe would just find times to
connect.
One easy way was to take a walkin the morning and as we did
that, it was sometimes I reallydidn't want to go, but we just
went.
You know, and something that westarted to practice when we
(38:12):
felt just really really bad iswe would end our walk with just
five things we were thankful forthat gratitude yeah, and you
know, I, just, I really it'ssuper annoying when people say,
oh, just, you know what are youthankful for?
Be thankful.
And that's not what I'm talkingabout, because it was truly
(38:32):
like just the smallest thing acoffee cup in your hand in the
morning.
It was like the moon, it waspetting your dog.
You know, it was the tiniestlittle thing that we could just
say.
This is giving me a little bitof strength to get through this
and we would try to end that.
e else that we did when we werefeeling just so overwhelmed and
(38:57):
terrible is at the end of theday, we would, of course, start
with a walk, but then at the endof the day, we would watch just
like five minutes of a comedianand we would lay in bed and all
the lights would be off andBryan would just play it like
from his phone for a second andit just was able to shift our
mindset because it was so hardto go to sleep, and that really
(39:20):
helped us both to kind of getinto a little bit lighter
mindset, to just grab a coupleof hours of sleep.
Colleen Montague (39:27):
I'm really glad that we're talking about
connecting with your partnerduring this time and the ways in
which that looks like.
And you know, one of the waysthat you've connected with your
partner in the past is throughintimacy and sex, and we just
want to go there and talk aboutthat and what that looks like
now in your marriage, duringthis time that you're grieving
(39:48):
such this huge, huge loss.
And so we've heard the gamut ofexperiences.
We've heard from parents thatit feels wrong to be intimate.
It's like the last and furthestthing from their mind, and then
we've also heard it was theform of connection that they
needed in the time.
And so, just wherever you arewith that, we want to encourage
(40:12):
you if you can just have thatcommunication with your partner
of how you're feeling and askinghow they're feeling about it.
And there's other ways to beintimate with your partner
besides having sex.
You know there is just sittingnext to each other on the couch
watching a show and make sureyou're just side by side and
touching or holding hands,looking each other in the eye
(40:35):
when you're speaking to eachother.
So what ways can you find rightnow that feel okay to you as
you relearn life again duringthis time?
Erin Nelson (40:45):
Yeah, Colleen, and you know I kind of think about
intimacy and I think about howsimply just surviving the loss
of a child together is its ownform of intimacy and you're
building something.
You both have memories of yourchild nobody else has and you
know them like nobody else does.
(41:06):
And so there's so much intimacyand connection between the two
of you and also your child.
And I also want to speak tosome false statistics about
bereaved parents, becausesometimes we hear things like oh
, 90% of marriages of parentswho lose a child will end in
(41:27):
divorce, and I just want to saythat we've seen recent research
that actually only 16% ofmarriages end after the death of
a child.
So that statistic is actuallybelow the national average and
it really points to howrelationships can be
strengthened when you can, whenyou go through the trauma of
(41:48):
losing a child together andbecause you shared memories of
your child and you're findingways to get through it, it's
always going to be part of yourfamily history and you're
building strength together.
Brad Quillen (42:01):
Erin and Colleen, I just want to say thanks for
this today and for you joiningus, and we always want to leave
you with the thought that youalways will need and should find
support, something we all needsupport for.
So thanks for being here todayand be sure to visit us at
jessicashouse.
org for more resources, andthere are a number of resources
on there for parents that havelost a child.
(42:23):
If you have any questions ortopic ideas, you can always
reach out to us at jessicashouse.
org or email us at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us for anotherepisode of When Grief Comes Home
.
We'll be talking aboutsupporting your child after the
loss of their sibling.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (42:42):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name, the book WhenGrief Comes Home, is a gentle
(43:05):
guide for parents who aregrieving a partner or child
while helping their childrenthrough the loss of their parent
or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you need griefrelated support, please visit
jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(43:27):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
Hello and welcome to when Grief Comes Home, a
podcast dedicated to parentsliving through loss while
supporting their child.
Let's meet the team.
Erin Nelson (00:11):
I'm Erin Nelson, founding executive director at
Jessica's House.
Colleen Montague (00:15):
Hi, I'm Colleen Montague, program
director for Jessica's House anda licensed marriage and family
therapist.
Brad Quillen (00:21):
Hi, I'm Brad Quillen and I'm the host of When
Grief Comes Home.
Gary Shriver (00:25):
This podcast goes along with a book of the same
name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
who are grieving a partner orchild, while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers.
Now let's go to the team asthey share grief resources and
(00:48):
coping skills, heartfelt storiesand insights to support parents
as they raise children who aregrieving.
Together, you'll find strengthas we learn to live with loss
and find ways to heal.
Brad Quillen (01:01):
Well, hello, hello , it's Brad from Jessica's House
.
Today, we're talking aboutgrieving your child and the many
ways you and your family willface changes after the death.
You are left holding theenormity of all you will face
with them missing from yourfuture.
Well, hello, Colleen, Erin,it's good to see you guys today.
And for those of you listening,today we're talking about when
your child dies.
(01:22):
It's a hard topic and so, justso you know that, that's where
we're headed today.
But as we talk about that,there's a number of things that
we're going to get into today.
But, Erin, I was going to askyou and I didn't tell you this
in our pre-show meeting butcould you just tell us a little
bit about your son Carter, who'sgoing to kind of bring us into
talking about when you have thedeath of a child.
(01:42):
Tell us a little bit about thatguy.
Erin Nelson (01:44):
Oh, I'll tell you a little bit about Carter.
Yes, I would love to, and we'recoming up on what we call in
our family his heaven day andjust thinking about him.
You know Carter came into ourlife and, as so many of our
listeners know just my story oflosing my husband, Tyler, and
also my mom, and then I gotremarried to Bryan and Carter.
(02:09):
We also lost our first baby,and so Carter came into our life
after a really long season ofloss and he was just pure joy,
like truly.
It was just a time of my lifeand a time of our life where we
were just so glad to just havean addition to our family.
(02:34):
At that time, we had Cody wasalready almost seven I think and
Cassie was turning 10.
And so it was just so nice tohave some just this little baby,
and I'll never forget just hewas a real bright light and so
(02:55):
he was just a lot of fun.
He was funny, like right away.
We noticed when he was atoddler that when we I remember
one time, Bryan and I, were justsitting on like his room floor
on the carpet and he didsomething and we both laughed at
him and then he noticed that wewere laughing and then he did
(03:16):
it like again and again and thatkind of was him.
He was an entertainer, he wasjust a lot of fun and he grew up
to love music and golf and carsand he just brought just a lot
of life.
We um, when we describe Carter,we have this word gusto, because
no matter what he did, he justbrought gusto.
(03:38):
From the moment he was born hehad a lot of enthusiasm.
So no matter what he wastalking about it could have been
like a taco.
It's just that he was very,very excited.
And so I would come home fromwork and he would be making some
concoction, something fordinner and just say, mom, mom, I
(03:59):
just wait till you taste this.
And he did smash burgers andjust all kinds of things, and so
he just was fun.
He was just so much fun, yeah.
Brad Quillen (04:08):
And I I think of Carter, and we've been involved
with you guys and our familiestogether for years and but
always something with his hands.
That was one of the things thatI'd look back and think about
whether it was working on carsor playing golf or guitar or
piano like he was always doingsomething with his hands and you
say smash burgers, which ishilarious because you're out
barbecuing.
Erin Nelson (04:26):
But yeah, he always was.
He had it all the ideas and hewoke up with a purpose and just
forever he just had a lot ofenergy and so he always was
walking through the house andmaking a plan and doing just
really fun, whether he wasbuilding something or making
something, he was just.
.
.
Brad Quillen (04:45):
Tearing something apart.
Erin Nelson (04:46):
Right, he was really good at that.
Yeah, so he was, he was just areal gift yeah.
Brad Quillen (04:53):
And, as you said, the anniversary is coming up
here in a couple of weeks as wesit together, and that brings
you back to some of thoseintense feelings, too, when a
child dies yeah, it really does.
Erin Nelson (05:06):
Um, my son Cody, he said, mom, I can feel it, you
know I would.
Just, we were at soccer onSaturday and he said, sure can
feel it in the air when it'sgetting closer.
And yeah, I think you just feelthat moment, like you start
feeling that time.
Or you got the phone call andyou start feeling it in the air
(05:27):
and yeah, you, just in justthose, the intensity of your
feelings can really increase.
Brad Quillen (05:34):
I've heard that from a lot of parents over the
years that there's physicalchanges that they feel coming on
.
Erin Nelson (05:41):
Yeah.
Brad Quillen (05:42):
And there's one gentleman I think of that's
volunteered here a number ofyears and he'll talk about that
and it's been 25, 26 years.
His son was killed in a caraccident and still we'll talk
about that the middle ofSeptember through almost
Thanksgiving.
It's just different.
Erin Nelson (05:57):
Really tough.
Yeah, absolutely, and just allthose feelings intensify and,
yeah, you just feel it so muchmore.
And it really speaks to yourlove for them and how much
they're missing from you.
Brad Quillen (06:10):
They're a piece of you.
Erin Nelson (06:11):
Absolutely.
Brad Quillen (06:12):
And Colleen, you lead a group here for adults
that have lost a child and youhear that in group often just
that desire and that longing andthat deep want to find.
Colleen Montague (06:30):
Absolutely, just the sheer pain that they're
in is just palpable in the roomand shared pain, for that
matter.
I notice a lot of anger isthere too.
Yeah, just so mad that they'regone and that they couldn't be
saved.
A lot of times there's the fearof just not wanting to forget
them and by that, the specificsof them, just what they sounded
like when they talked, whattheir laugh sounded like, their
(06:53):
smell or their touch.
They're so scared they're goingto forget it.
And one time a mom said youknow, I can tell you all the
stories and I can show youpictures or videos, but you will
never know the true essence ofthem.
Yeah, I can never share thatwith anybody, I can't explain
that.
And she said I feel so bad foryou because you'll never know
(07:16):
that.
You know, speaking to me,that's so true.
Brad Quillen (07:19):
Yeah, and there's those moments where we're just
in those lows and the dark andnothing seems to help.
Just I try this or I try thatand it feels like the repeated.
Well, that didn't help, thatdidn't make me feel different.
Erin Nelson (07:34):
Yeah, I think the intensity of losing a child.
It's an experience where youjust want a little bit of relief
from your pain and you searchfor that.
And I remember after Carterdied, we had an Airbnb that we
ran over by the ocean and so wewould drive to that to go
(07:54):
restock supplies or whatever itwould be, and I would just think
, well, maybe if I get a littlecloser to the ocean I'll feel
better.
And it didn't help, and I thenI would say, well, maybe I just
need to go home and I would gethome.
And it didn't help and therewas really so little that I
could do to find relief otherthan maybe just expressing and
(08:15):
crying.
And yeah, I just, I remember somany times.
I remember one time where I justdrove to the grocery store and
I just felt so dark in my soul,like it was such a pressure, it
was such a, it was just likeyou're almost falling, like
that's all I can describe.
It's like you're just kind ofin a free fall, and I just felt
(08:37):
this, like feeling like that.
And I went to the grocery storeand I remember just like
looking in the aisles, likemaybe there's something here
that would make me feel better,like my favorite chip or like
some chocolate or something.
And I remember standing in lineat the checkout and just kind
of wiping my tears, you know,with my jacket sleeve, and
driving back.
(08:58):
And when I got back there was afriend waiting for me on my
porch and I walked up the stepsand she just like just held me
so close and just let me cry andreally looked at my eyes and
somehow I just knew she was justwitnessing that and I did find
relief in just someone else'sembrace and sometimes just
(09:18):
knowing that you have somebodyelse that's holding that with
you can really help.
I was surprised how much justhugs physically gave me strength
and how I really needed thatlike never before.
Brad Quillen (09:34):
Colleen, we talk about this idea of companioning
at Jessica's House a lot, andcan you share a little bit about
that because, Erin, that's kindof what you're speaking about,
that that friend that was onyour porch didn't try and change
it, couldn't fix it, just satwith you in it and was present
to the dark and the ugly and allthe feelings.
Colleen Montague (09:54):
Exactly, and what you're speaking to, Erin,
is just that that the onlyremedy for your pain in that
moment was just to grieve andfor you being held up literally
by your friend and then alsojust leaning in to whatever felt
right or feels right, and sothat can be just screams, anger,
(10:16):
moaning or crying.
Erin Nelson (10:18):
Yeah, I think what we're searching for is home, you
know, and everything feels sodifferent.
We just want back what we hadand that energy of not being
able to feel settled and notbeing able to find home.
It feels so bad and the onlyway to move that energy of that
(10:40):
emptiness is just to yeah, likeyou said, is to get it out of
your body and cry and, like yousaid, express the anger.
I remember just this very likehot emotions, like even just
seeing other people with theirkids and, you know, having kids
go through milestones that weresimilar to what Carter would
(11:03):
have done, and being just madand like I don't want anything
to happen to my friend's kids,of course, but like just
thinking like he should be here,you know and you live with that
of just that longing for themand just that longing for home
that you'll never have again.
Colleen Montague (11:19):
And to force your mourning to be neat and
tidy is an unachievable thought.
It's just, it's messy and it'sbig and it's ugly and scary, but
that is what you may need inthat moment.
Erin Nelson (11:33):
And just to admit like see, I just said it out
loud, like I'm jealous.
Brad Quillen (11:37):
You just said the word mourning.
What do you mean by the wordmourning?
Because some people might'veheard that and thought what's
that?
Grief?
Isn't that just grief?
Colleen Montague (11:44):
Yeah, that's a good point, Brad.
We talk about the differencebetween grief and mourning.
Those are two words we useinterchangeably as a society,
but they're actually verydifferent.
Grief is the way that your bodyfeels after a death.
It's just automatic responsesthat your body feels.
And then mourning is what youdo with those feelings and the
(12:05):
energy of grief in your body,how you get that and move that
out of your body, thoseexpressions of grief.
And so that is where the tearsand the fits or the cries out or
talking being held by somebodywalking it out, all the
different things that we talkabout here in the podcast that
those are acts of mourning andthat is what can bring true
(12:28):
healing to you in a moment.
You'll never be healed, ofcourse, but it can help you in
those, in those times.
Brad Quillen (12:37):
And some days you need to scream and yell and kick
and stomp and some days youneed to cry and be hugged.
I can think of years and yearsago.
I had a mom and group that usedto I may have told the story
used to drive around the blockin her car and she'd play heavy
metal music and she would drivearound the block screaming after
her son had died.
And one day she was drivingaround the block and noticed
(13:00):
that people were now watchingher that never would watch
before when she would do, andmost of the neighborhood knew
what had happened.
And she told the story that shedidn't realize when she was
driving around her block, whenpeople were watching her, she
didn't realize that the windowswere down in the car and so she
was screaming around theneighborhood and people were
coming out to make sure she wasokay and they were very gracious
and supportive of her.
(13:21):
She said so I had to find a newneighborhood to drive and go
scream, but that's what sheneeded, and I first I was like
screaming, okay, that's, thatwas her avenue of letting it out
.
And even we see that you know,within the first few days of the
death too, there's a lot ofscreaming and moaning of that
protest.
Erin Nelson (13:41):
I think it can go on because you know, sometimes
you don't even, there are nowords, there's nothing you can
do.
But sometimes you just stand inyour very own kitchen and just
have there's nothing, justexcept for like moans and cries
and just getting whatever youcan out of your body.
Getting whatever you can out ofyour body, and sometimes you
(14:03):
just really feel like you mightnot be able to breathe again
because you're having such longout breaths and it's like just
getting that out, that allthat's inside of you.
Like you said, Colleen, withthe grief and then letting that
come out of you.
Brad Quillen (14:16):
You talked about not being able to breathe and
there's people that in grouphave said this over the years,
so let's put this on the tablethe physical elements that
happen with the body and,Colleen, Erin, you and I we've
all seen this in group withadults over the years.
Colleen Montague (14:28):
Absolutely, we have.
I've heard so many parents inmy adult groups talk about
needing to go to the doctor inthe months following the death
because they're having heartpains, chest pains and really
they're concerned that they'vegot some heart troubles now and
they're not they usually don't.
It's actually, it's grief, it'sreally literally a broken heart
(14:51):
and just the sheer pain comingthrough in that way somatically,
how we feel that in our body,the tightness within our bodies,
our shoulders, just thefeelings in our stomach just in
knots or nauseous or emptiness.
Erin Nelson (15:05):
Yeah, and just that deep weariness, just being so
tired and something that we talkabout and I know we've said
before but kind of that idea ofdrinking, you know, just making
sure you're staying hydrated andmaking sure that if you do get
sleepy, to try to take a nap,and really taking extra good
(15:27):
care of yourself.
And we have an acronym that weuse around here, which is just
DEER, which is just drink andthen make sure you're eating
just a little bit of food andjust a walk.
So the next E is exercise andthen rest, and so whatever we
can do to take really good careof ourself in a practical way
(15:48):
can ease some of those symptoms,because sometimes, just even
with like a headache, you mayhave needed a little more
hydration and because our thirstmechanism is suppressed when
we're in grief and in trauma.
So we have to really actuallydrink even when we may not feel
thirsty.
Brad Quillen (16:08):
Colleen, you just brought up a word that we didn't
talk about.
But I want to ask a questionabout a somatic.
But it also goes along withsomething.
Erin, you said earlier today tome that with Carter's Heaven
Day coming here in the next fewdays and weeks, that there's a
different feel, and so the bodyremembers and I'm going to use
the words of body keeps score,and let you guys kind of talk
(16:30):
about not only the somatic thingthat happens to us physically a
little bit, but also the seasonwhen it comes back around.
Colleen Montague (16:36):
Yeah, it goes without saying that the loss of
a child is traumatic.
That is one of the mostincredible traumas somebody can
experience, and our bodies arereally affected when we
experience trauma, and so traumacomes back, not necessarily as
(16:59):
a memory, but a body sensation,and so we can learn to start to
listen to our bodies torecognize those cues that pop up
when our body is possibly, youknow, screaming for attention,
so to speak.
Brad Quillen (17:15):
So true.
Erin Nelson (17:16):
I just think about even how our body can be a
resource and after a trauma andyou know some people that have
experienced a parent who hasexperienced the death of their
child may notice that maybe theyare even shaking, like after
that happened and our bodies canreally take care of us in that
way, and there are ways that wecan discharge trauma out of our
(17:36):
body, and sometimes you maynotice that you're shaking, just
not to be overly concerned.
If your nervous system istaking care of itself in that
way, it's really a way that you,your body, comes back to
feeling calm again is to shakeand to have some of these
sensations, and so we can reallylook to our bodies to keep us
(18:00):
safe.
Brad Quillen (18:02):
You say that we have a mutual friend that will
often rock in meetings.
It's just her way of just beingin the moment and present but
being attuned to what's going on.
But it's also a comfort for hertoo.
Erin Nelson (18:15):
Absolutely, and just anything that we can do to
go side to side to just findcomfort in our bodies.
It's so important that we startto learn what we need to feel
safe on a sensory level.
I remember having a weightedblanket after Carter died and
eating some of my favorite foodsand just being able to really
(18:38):
take good care of myself in myphysical space and knowing that
I needed that a lot.
Colleen Montague (18:44):
And over time, you're going to learn what
works for you, and there's some,there's some power in that.
You know you had to try thosethings on, so to speak.
You know, will this weightedblanket help?
Will these snacks help?
Yes, and then I'm sure youfound some things that don't
work for you, and so you'rerelearning yourself, this new
version of you, which is nowthis person who's living in this
(19:06):
humongous loss.
Brad Quillen (19:08):
Erin, I was going to ask you, we kind of touched
on it, but just to make it clear, the only way or remedy for
this pain of losing your childis to grieve, and people have to
go through that.
Erin Nelson (19:20):
Yeah, there's no way to get to the other side.
And I always think about whatGary Sitzer says and he, after
he lost his child and his wifeand his mom, he talked about
going into the darkness, likewalking into the east to find
the sunrise, but he had beentrying to kind of go towards
like stay in the light.
(19:41):
We have to turn and go and wehave to allow ourselves to go
into that darkness.
And I remember, after Carterdied, I did feel like I said
like I was in that free fall andI texted a friend and said I
feel like I'm falling into thedarkness and she texted back you
(20:01):
know the darkness will hold youand knowing that I could trust
the grief process, I've learnedto really trust the grief
process, if you go into it, yousurrender to it.
It, in my experience, justmimics so much of nature, with
(20:21):
waves, with the storms that come.
You know rain never lastsforever.
Right, it never lasts forever.
And so, as you, just trustingthe break in the weather,
trusting that you won't alwaysfeel like you do in this very
moment, you will get to the nextmoment and you may not really
think you very moment, you willget to the next moment and you
(20:42):
may not really think you will,but you will.
Brad Quillen (20:44):
And I know you were, Erin, you're speaking of
seasons, but some people it'smoment by moment.
You know, 10 minute block by 10minute block, that that are
listening today too.
Colleen Montague (20:53):
Yeah, and as time goes on and you face these
little moments again and again,you're really building new
muscles with which to hold thispain.
And, Erin, you've said beforethey were never muscles you
wanted to build, but you are andso you'll be able to hold it as
time goes on.
But it takes that care and thatintention of yourself along the
(21:18):
way.
Erin Nelson (21:18):
It's so true and like when you're talking about
holding, I think about that wejust do carry grief, you know,
forward.
It's not like we get over it,there's no closure, but we're
carrying it with us.
And I heard someone talk aboutjust how their parenting their
child who's no longer here, justas much as they are their other
(21:39):
children, because just as muchof that energy is divided, so,
as they're feeding and nurturingand, you know, taking care of
their child's everyday needs,that you know the child who's
living, they're spending just asmuch of that energy with that
love that they have, that havethat the grief represents their
(22:02):
love and that's going towardstheir child that they're missing
so much.
Brad Quillen (22:07):
Yeah, and it is a friend of ours, Ron, that
volunteers here at Jessica'sHouse and I've learned so much
from him over the years.
His son died quite a few yearsago and he shared an example of
when his son died.
It felt like a boulder was onhis chest and he talks about.
I couldn't breathe and I hadtightness in my chest and all
these things and as he grievedthe boulder got smaller and
(22:30):
smaller over time.
Nothing immediate, nothingovernight, you know, but it took
quite a few seasons to walkthrough and years to grieve and
work through it.
But he said, I still have thatboulder every day and it sits on
my chest.
It's not as big, but it's apart of me and it's an everyday
part of me.
Erin Nelson (22:48):
Yeah, and I've heard him talk about that and he
says sometimes it gets so smallhe can put it in his pocket.
Brad Quillen (22:53):
Yeah, it even goes with him.
Erin Nelson (22:55):
Yeah, and it just takes him with them, and so you
never know how, like what, thesize of that rock will be right?
Brad Quillen (23:02):
Well, Erin and Colleen, thank you, thank you,
thank you.
This is so good, so hard, butso good to have this
conversation with the both ofyou, and we're going to take a
quick break.
We'll be back.
We're going to talk a littleabout some of the dynamics and
the changes that happen in ourfamily relationships when
there's been a death of a child.
Gary Shriver (23:17):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name.
The book When Grief Comes Homeis a gentle guide for parents
(23:39):
who are grieving a partner orchild while helping their
children through the loss oftheir parent or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you needgrief-related support, please
visit jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media,and if you have any questions
(24:01):
or topics that you'd like us toexplore in a future episode,
just send us an email to info@jessicashouse.
org.
Brad Quillen (24:09):
Welcome back.
And as we come back, talkingabout when you've lost a child,
one of the things we hear oftenhere at Jessica's House as
facilitators, is I'm asked howmany children do I have, how do
I respond to that?
What do I say?
So, Erin, Colleen, what's youradvice to that question?
Erin Nelson (24:26):
We know this comes up so much at Jessica's House
when parents are asked thatquestion and it's so hard and I
think it always takes you alittle off guard, no matter how
many times you've answered it.
And I think for parents we havethese conversations, like it
may be different every time,kind of depends on how you're
(24:47):
feeling in that moment and howmuch you want to share.
And sometimes, like for ourfamily, like I'll just say four
and kind of end that, but thensome people will ask more
questions oh, where do they live?
And so sometimes you can gointo it a little bit, you can
kind of gauge the conversation.
Sometimes you could wrap it upa little bit, and I had a mom
(25:07):
tell me recently that she likesto say I have four, and if
somebody pushes and then she'llsay you know, yeah, one of them
isn't living, and if the personis like oh, I'm so sorry, she's
like you know what I really liketo talk about him, and so just
to give that person that kind ofawkward moment for you know
that can be just to say hey,thanks for asking me that and I
(25:31):
like to talk about him.
Other times it might be reallyhard to talk about and so being
able to just even say, you know,whatever it is, that you feel
in that moment that maybe youjust want to say to because you
only have two with you at thattime and you don't want to go
into it and it's okay.
Brad Quillen (25:49):
And so, whatever it is, but kind of thinking
ahead of time on how you want toanswer that question, I'm so
glad you brought up the fact ofwhen you respond with one's no
longer living or one's inheaven, awkward dynamic that
just got introduced into theconversation that you were
having and you can see thediscomfort, I'm assuming, in
other people when you have tosay those kinds of things and so
(26:09):
just to be aware of that andhave that line I think is great.
Erin Nelson (26:12):
Yeah, just to think about that.
And you know, and I'm alsothinking, you know, for our
listeners today, and maybe thatwas just it was, it was their
only child and maybe they getasked that question how many
children do you have?
And maybe they don't.
You know they no longer havetheir child and so you know what
does that mean for them.
(26:33):
When they just when you, lostyour only child and that can be
really hard because you knowjust finding support for that
and thinking about you know whatthat means for your family you
lose so much of your futurebecause of as you think about
grandchildren and I know parentshere at Jessica's House have
(26:56):
talked about like all thatthey've lost for their future
when they lost their only child,whether that's weddings that
they were looking forward to,graduations, and that's really
hard.
Brad Quillen (27:07):
There is that being robbed of the future piece
that comes in when we have achild that's died and, Colleen,
that comes up in group often.
As I said a little bit earlierin the podcast, that you lead a
group that's for those parentsthat have had the deaths of a
child.
Colleen Montague (27:20):
I was thinking when you were talking, Erin,
just about how the dynamics ofthe family shift so much after
the death of a child.
Just among the sibling orderwith your other living children,
you know, the one that maybewas the middle child is now the
oldest, what that looks like.
Or maybe the one that was theyoungest is now the oldest and
(27:42):
the only in the family.
And do you consider yourself afamily of four still?
Or is it a family of three?
And there's no right or wronganswer, but we're just posing
all the different shifts inidentity that you're probably
going through right now and whatwe've heard from other families
too.
Brad Quillen (27:59):
Well, everything changes when that happens the
rhythm of mornings getting outthe door with school and all
those things, and maybe it wasthe kiddo that helped get kids
moving, or it was the one thatwas behind, or the position of
who sits where in the car, justall those things change when
there's a death and those familyrelationships and dynamics
change.
Colleen Montague (28:18):
Yeah, and the energy of your home is different
.
You know, Erin, you talkedabout with Carter like the gusto
is that's kind of gone in yourfamily right now.
Erin Nelson (28:27):
Yeah, and he really did add so much spark and so we
noticed even right, Brad.
Brad Quillen (28:34):
Spark is one word.
Erin Nelson (28:35):
Yeah, and something that we noticed, because you
know my daughter, who was 17 atthe time, she was just naturally
quiet and how dinners changed,and he was always the one that
would bring up a subject that wealways, you know, would kind of
(28:56):
go around the table and talkabout, and it would always be
something controversial orsomething kind of more exciting
to talk about.
And we just noticed how muchjust the tenor of the home
changed because it just got realquiet, and how much different
it is.
Brad Quillen (29:11):
Hey, Colleen, a minute ago we talked about
things that are coming down thefuture and you were speaking to
something in our pre-showmeeting, about something parents
don't look forward to.
That you've learned out of yoursibling loss groups.
Colleen Montague (29:22):
We hear so often about how hard anniversary
dates are those approaching,whether it was the anniversary
of the death or maybe thebirthday.
But another thing that isreally scary for parents is when
their other living children arenearing the age that their
other child was when they died.
And so one mom said that herchild died at eight years and
(29:46):
four months old and her otherchild was turning eight soon,
and she said I just have to getpast that eight year four month
mark and then I can breathe.
But that was looming for her,and she had experienced it
already with her other child too.
Brad Quillen (30:01):
There's so many dynamics that change when we've
had a death of a child and we'vetalked about those things that
are focused around the child andsome of the changes.
But, Erin, there's a lot ofchanges and things that look
different between husband andwife and spouse, and all those
things after one of yourchildren has died.
Erin Nelson (30:18):
When a child dies, the dynamics with your
relationship with your spouse ora partner can be really
different and everybody has adifferent personality and a
different way to heal and sowithin sometimes a marriage and
just to speak from my own lifewith after Carter died like
(30:42):
Bryan, after Carter died, Bryanneeded a lot of friends, he
needed a lot of people aroundhim and he needed to talk a lot
and have that energy.
And I remember him just likesitting outside around a
campfire really and just havinghis buddies over and he really
needed that.
And I just wanted to be inCarter's room, I wanted it to be
(31:02):
quiet, I just needed very, veryclose friends or family with me
and I needed just a lot of timeto just be by myself.
And so so much of the dynamicsand we've heard just different
ways that people heal.
I think some of the guidelinesor just advice that I've heard
(31:27):
from people right away after achild dies is to just give each
other just that grace thatyou're going to do it
differently.
Something else that I noticehappens is and we hear this in
group is that one person hasreally wrestled through a
(31:48):
certain time of their grief andmaybe they've just had a good
cry and they're just feelingtemporarily just some relief,
and they may throw out this idealike hey, maybe we could go to
dinner tonight.
And the other person, the otherparent, is like there's just no
way I could ever even thinkabout going out right now and
(32:09):
just the thought that not onlyare you going to do it
differently, but you'll befeeling different all the time,
and so as your grief kind ofhits you at different times, you
have to also kind of navigatethat as well and give each other
the space that you might needat that moment.
Brad Quillen (32:29):
And we all react to pain differently.
Erin Nelson (32:31):
We all react to pain differently, and so it's so
unique for each person, and itchanges from moment to moment,
and so that's why familydynamics can be so tricky after
someone dies.
Brad Quillen (32:45):
I can imagine just driving down the road there's
different things that wouldbring up emotion and parents as
they're both riding in the samecar because it's a different
relationship, and again they seesomething that reminds them of
their child that maybe doesn'tremind the other of their kiddo.
Erin Nelson (33:01):
Yeah, and being able to communicate that, just
to say I can't do that right now.
Brad Quillen (33:06):
Yeah.
Erin Nelson (33:07):
Or I really need to do this right now and to allow
each other.
You know, it's like it's almostlike a dance that you have
never wanted to do, right, butit's like you're not holding on
too tightly, you're just likeletting each other go a little
bit to go and individuallygrieve and do it differently, as
(33:27):
you need to.
Colleen Montague (33:29):
Also being aware that you're surrounded by
a family who's grieving yourspouse is grieving, your kids
are grieving, but making surethat you still have the space to
do so yourself.
I think we can easily getcaught up in caring for
everybody else, but it's stillso important to go into that
(33:49):
space for yourself as well.
Brad Quillen (33:51):
And, as you say, going into different spaces.
It makes me think of when, asparents, we get back into a
little bit of rhythm and gettingout.
It's hard to see others or evenfamily members that have kiddos
the same age or were doingsimilar things that your kid
used to do, and that's a hardfeeling and there's a lot of
(34:12):
judgment on ourselves about whyI should be excited for them.
But yet it just hurts and youdon't want to maybe be there.
Erin Nelson (34:19):
I think watching kids your child who died's age
grow up and meet thesemilestones, and how bad it can
feel to watch that happen andyou would never wish harm on
anybody, obviously, but it'sjust like, why do they, you know
, why do they get to live and doall these things that my child
(34:39):
didn't?
And so that's really hard andto just be able to express that.
And I had a parent tell me onetime that her friends and family
stopped inviting her like tothe birthday parties because her
child died and even though thebirthday parties were so painful
(35:00):
and it was so hard to be there,she still wanted to be invited,
just to be invited.
And so it's also you can haveother people that are playing
this protection game so thatthey won't add any more pain to
you, but then it actuallyintensifies your pain because
you feel more alone, you feeldifferent and so being able to
(35:20):
teach your community what youneed like please still invite me
when you see me, give me a hugand tell me you love me, just
keep entering, and it is hardfor me, like you can put it out
there, but you still need yourcommunity.
Brad Quillen (35:35):
ut it safe to say that jealousy is a real piece of
that?
Erin Nelson (35:38):
Yeah, I think jealousy is a big part of a
grief emotion, right, and it'senvy, it's jealousy, it's the
unfairness of life.
It's not fair that their childis living and yours isn't, and
being able to speak, that youknow why would that be and how
confusing that is and why youand you know what really is
(36:02):
going on, and so I just thinkbeing able to express just
feelings about the injustice ofit all.
Brad Quillen (36:10):
Which reminds me that that's why it's so
important for us to have supportwith those that understand and
kind of get what it's like tohave a loss like that.
Colleen Montague (36:19):
That's why our peer support groups are so
powerful.
Just to be surrounded by otherswho get it, and you may not
have a peer support group inyour area, but how can you
surround yourself with peoplewho get it, maybe through their
own experience, or who arewilling to just be a companion
during this time and comealongside you?
(36:39):
The reality is your spouse orpartner, you know they may
usually be that person for youthat you go to when you're
having a hard day, so to speak,but now they're holding that
heaviness as well, and so that'sthe importance of, you can't be
each other's everything duringthis.
You probably need to have otherpeople outside.
(37:01):
One thing that we shared in ourbook is the importance of
carrying your loss with others.
That it's too much to holdalone or just between the two of
you, you and your husband andso the importance of seeking
support outside of yourrelationship can help you both
feel surrounded by the layers ofreinforcement that you need,
and that's exactly what youtalked about, Erin, with you and
(37:23):
Bryan.
Brad Quillen (37:24):
Colleen, hearing you talk makes me think of the
countless parents we've heardover the years that have lost a
child.
We'll say something to theeffect of I'm trying to make
sure everybody else is okay andby the end of the day, there's
no time left for me or for us asa husband and wife.
What does that look like for?
(37:45):
For those that are grieving,that are listening, dads and
moms that are, that arelistening.
Erin Nelson (37:49):
Yeah, to again go back to my story and Bryan and I
and how we kind of did this waswe would just find times to
connect.
One easy way was to take a walkin the morning and as we did
that, it was sometimes I reallydidn't want to go, but we just
went.
You know, and something that westarted to practice when we
(38:12):
felt just really really bad iswe would end our walk with just
five things we were thankful forthat gratitude yeah, and you
know, I, just, I really it'ssuper annoying when people say,
oh, just, you know what are youthankful for?
Be thankful.
And that's not what I'm talkingabout, because it was truly
(38:32):
like just the smallest thing acoffee cup in your hand in the
morning.
It was like the moon, it waspetting your dog.
You know, it was the tiniestlittle thing that we could just
say.
This is giving me a little bitof strength to get through this
and we would try to end that.
e else that we did when we werefeeling just so overwhelmed and
(38:57):
terrible is at the end of theday, we would, of course, start
with a walk, but then at the endof the day, we would watch just
like five minutes of a comedianand we would lay in bed and all
the lights would be off andBryan would just play it like
from his phone for a second andit just was able to shift our
mindset because it was so hardto go to sleep, and that really
(39:20):
helped us both to kind of getinto a little bit lighter
mindset, to just grab a coupleof hours of sleep.
Colleen Montague (39:27):
I'm really glad that we're talking about
connecting with your partnerduring this time and the ways in
which that looks like.
And you know, one of the waysthat you've connected with your
partner in the past is throughintimacy and sex, and we just
want to go there and talk aboutthat and what that looks like
now in your marriage, duringthis time that you're grieving
(39:48):
such this huge, huge loss.
And so we've heard the gamut ofexperiences.
We've heard from parents thatit feels wrong to be intimate.
It's like the last and furthestthing from their mind, and then
we've also heard it was theform of connection that they
needed in the time.
And so, just wherever you arewith that, we want to encourage
(40:12):
you if you can just have thatcommunication with your partner
of how you're feeling and askinghow they're feeling about it.
And there's other ways to beintimate with your partner
besides having sex.
You know there is just sittingnext to each other on the couch
watching a show and make sureyou're just side by side and
touching or holding hands,looking each other in the eye
(40:35):
when you're speaking to eachother.
So what ways can you find rightnow that feel okay to you as
you relearn life again duringthis time?
Erin Nelson (40:45):
Yeah, Colleen, and you know I kind of think about
intimacy and I think about howsimply just surviving the loss
of a child together is its ownform of intimacy and you're
building something.
You both have memories of yourchild nobody else has and you
know them like nobody else does.
(41:06):
And so there's so much intimacyand connection between the two
of you and also your child.
And I also want to speak tosome false statistics about
bereaved parents, becausesometimes we hear things like oh
, 90% of marriages of parentswho lose a child will end in
(41:27):
divorce, and I just want to saythat we've seen recent research
that actually only 16% ofmarriages end after the death of
a child.
So that statistic is actuallybelow the national average and
it really points to howrelationships can be
strengthened when you can, whenyou go through the trauma of
(41:48):
losing a child together andbecause you shared memories of
your child and you're findingways to get through it, it's
always going to be part of yourfamily history and you're
building strength together.
Brad Quillen (42:01):
Erin and Colleen, I just want to say thanks for
this today and for you joiningus, and we always want to leave
you with the thought that youalways will need and should find
support, something we all needsupport for.
So thanks for being here todayand be sure to visit us at
jessicashouse.
org for more resources, andthere are a number of resources
on there for parents that havelost a child.
(42:23):
If you have any questions ortopic ideas, you can always
reach out to us at jessicashouse.
org or email us at info@jessicashouse.
org.
Be sure to join us for anotherepisode of When Grief Comes Home
.
We'll be talking aboutsupporting your child after the
loss of their sibling.
Until then, we wish you well.
Gary Shriver (42:42):
Jessica's House is a children's bereavement center
located in California's CentralValley since 2012.
We provide free peer supportfor children, teens, young
adults and their familiesgrieving a loss.
The When Grief Comes Homepodcast goes along with the book
of the same name, the book WhenGrief Comes Home, is a gentle
(43:05):
guide for parents who aregrieving a partner or child
while helping their childrenthrough the loss of their parent
or sibling.
When Grief Comes Home is nowavailable at all major book
retailers and if you need griefrelated support, please visit
jessicashouse.
org to download our freeresources and be sure to follow
Jessica's House on social media.
If you have any questions ortopics that you'd like us to
(43:27):
explore in a future episode,just send us an email to info@
jessicashouse.
org.
Thank you for joining us andwe'll see you next time for When
Grief Comes Home.
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