Richard Speck & The Townhouse Massacre

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:20):
Hey, everybody. In serial killer country.
My name is Brittany. Ransom, my name is Brian Joyner,
and this is when Killers get caught, a podcast devoted to
deep dives, into the lives and psyche.
So, the Killer's we love to learn about about each week.
Brian, I find a True Crime Storythat resonated with us and then
I discuss one, well-known or lesser known killer and go into
their childhood lives, methodology.
And most importantly how they got caught and then we'll get a

(00:42):
little spooky and learn something about the Cryptids or
the supernatural. And before we start, we just
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(01:06):
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(01:28):
So if you've wanted to support us, this is the easiest way.
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And I've agreed to allow Brian to make me stay at the Lizzie
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It's gonna be fun. If we get 500 patrons, it's
going to be fine. I don't know.
You know what? When I was editing a last week's

(01:51):
episode and you mentioned blankets and in the beginning
and then I was like oh yeah you get blankets, do it?
Like I did. I just hear you say get blankets
and emerge stop. I was like, oh my God, not just
do that. That's all right.
I'm sorry. You can't get blankets.
I keep saying, I want to buy a blanket.
Also, some pillows. So yeah, there's because I want

(02:12):
to put them in the back of my videos so that's it has like the
logo right there. Next to me.
Look once we get we're Gonna getfitted sheets and then regular
sheet has to make you have when Killers.
Get caught bed. Yes.
Oh my God, wouldn't want that. You know what, though they would
want it. If it had like every single like
picture of a serial killer or something, they'll be awesome.

(02:33):
But what it will say, if I am working on a very secret secret
thing that's probably going to be like a year for us to create
my God, but it's very cool and Ihave somebody doing the art
slowly for it. So okay.
But yeah. That's just your little
reminders of ways you can support us.
And this week in True Crime, I have a weird story and this

(02:57):
person has a person who did thiscrime has not been caught, but
it's weird. I'm down for weird stories.
So the headline says, body of missing Oklahoma team or it
says, actually read it because it's a horrible headline, but
body of Oklahoma team missing, since 2018 is found dead.

(03:18):
Decomposed in a basement. Homeowner says he had no idea.
That's a little sauce right there, my guy.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, the woman's name was
Margarita. They called her Maggie Sandoval.
She was 19 years old when she vanished in 2018.
I guess it's near Oklahoma University and they're trying to

(03:39):
figure out like who did this in general.
But it's a whole lot of weird stuff.
So her family realized she was missing when she stopped calling
her mom, which is, you know, pretty normal when you're in
college and for three years, nobody knew anything.
And then they got an anonymous tip.
To search a house in Norman Oklahoma, for a dead body in the

(04:01):
basement, they found a large black box and according to the
police report, the body was wrapped in numerous layers of
thick plastic, pretty much 20 to30 layers of plastic Norma's,
police detectives Sean, Judy wrote that officer saw a liquid
leaking from the box, as well asinsects escaping.
And then when they got closer and smelled, the odor of

(04:23):
decomposition, Opposition. They called in the crime scene
investigators. They've since identified that
this is Maggie and they're trying to figure out the cause
of death right now. What's interesting is that like
the homeowner is like I have no idea.
He liked when they came to his door with the search warrant.
He was like, I don't know about a body but sure, come on in.
Yeah. Now she's been missing since

(04:48):
2018 and the current homeowner moved in in 2019, but he allowed
one of his friends to like, store the stuff from his
apartment in his basement. This all just seems Very weird.
And that friend was someone related to Maggie Sandoval?

(05:11):
Oh, like related related or likethey were like friends with her.
So it does the friend who storedthe items is a relative of
Sandoval who had been living at an address where she had been
receiving her social security payments, because she had a
disability, Her sister says thatthey had actually wanted to

(05:33):
legally take over like her caretaking and so there's a lot
of like layers to this like was she killed for Social Security
payments? Yeah.
But people knew she was like Dadimmediately, there's just so
many unanswered questions. Like first first thing that's
weird, not on this call. And in the homeowner doesn't
know, so that it's not on his caller.

(05:54):
Must have been the person who did this Ray, So goodness and
then. Okay.
And then for the homeowner yet, this black box in your basement,
you don't question. He'd never go down into the
basement and all exactly as you have like your washer and dryer
up on the second floor which is side note.
My ideal living situation that my washer and dryers on the same
floor as my bedroom. Because who wants to walk down

(06:16):
two flights of steps to wash your clothes but like so did he
never go in the basement? Is that the situation?
Because I feel like if you checked it out at all, it had a
weird smell. And another thing that was
interesting to me, Is what's theweather like in Oklahoma that
she still decomposing three years later, was she at some
point Frozen? And then it started to thaw

(06:37):
because after three years, thereshould not be insects and
leakage happening, I mean, but did the plastic slow down.
I just want thinking that's whatI'm thinking the the layers of
plastic may have slowed it down and then after a while, it just
started leaking out. We have a search warrant was May
14th, they've just discovered her identity.

(06:58):
Recently after going to have to do lots of things.
But yeah, so that's that's like it's so interesting to me.
That's why I want to go to the Body Farm.
God I just want to know all the different things that can happen
and how it affects you. It's just I don't know.
That's it's, it's very interesting that story and it's

(07:20):
very weird. And also one of the things
that's interesting to me is thatwhenever I About like someone
died in their apartment and people didn't know people like
how didn't people know the smelland I like always work out the
story that like literally oh yeah four doors down somebody
died and we didn't know. Yeah like and all it just

(07:42):
smelled weird. Like I don't know how to explain
it and then when I've been Googling like this, the the
bacteria that happens when you begin to decompose or like once
you really get into the gross bits of decomposition, they're
talking about hundreds of different, smells hundreds of
different, Bacterias like and they all give off different
smells at different times and like because we didn't get the

(08:03):
gross gross. It just smelled like weird.
It's not weird. Smell it smells extra sweet.
But in a way that was really sweet.
Yeah. But in a gross way and so people
reported it to the apartment complex and I went to work and
then when I guess during the daythey like opened, everybody's
apartment to see where the smellwas coming from, and eventually

(08:26):
they got to his Yeah, discoveredit.
But yeah, so, I'm like there's so many questions, because I'm
like, what was what there had tohave been some scent, but what
was the set? Yeah.
And this relative that store their stuff in this home, they
just worried contacted at all. Well, one of Maggie's relative.

(08:47):
Exactly. So then whoever the homeowner is
he is, somehow involved in this circle connected, and then.
Yeah. And then the sister said that
because she had a mental illness, other members of the
family, wanted to become her primary caretakers to get her,
Social Security payment. Some like it's a massive family
cover-up. Hmm.
Of people trying to like, it's gonna sound something like that.

(09:08):
Yeah, I mean, I have it a coupletimes and I lived in
Philadelphia, they found like elderly, people, like locked in
like other family members basements and they were just
like collecting their Social Security checks.
Yeah. It happened a few times.
When I lived in Philly. Wow, I was like, we got to look
out for our elders. People are fucking depraved,
apparently. Now, you got also look Gout for

(09:28):
your family members who are disabled to because definitely
shh. But anyway, that was my story
for the week. What you got for me?
God, starting off with a frigginbang and the, the person I talk
about it doesn't get any better.Well this week.
All right. Really?
This headline to you says Brighton cat.

(09:49):
Killer is Steve both quit. Quit quit.
He's 54. He is jailed for five years for
killing Nine, Cats and maiming. Seven War.
Where did this happen? Every nine months, animal
cruelty campaign. This happened in East Sussex.
Okay? You said bright and I was like
Island, only bright 90's in the UK.

(10:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Why was he just marking cats? I'm not sure, but then he better
hope the internet doesn't get a hold of him.
Goodness gracious, but it's saysactual real Navy.
Gunner. Dubbed, the Brighton cat killer
has been jailed for 25 years after being found guilty for
killing. I catch him eating 7, and this

(10:31):
has happened over what to say. That's actually a total of 15.
It cats. He attacked.
Yeah, succeeded in murdering nine of them, you know, 16?
Yeah. And seven just survived.
His attack. Yeah, and this happened for nine
months. Oh wow.
To a month. Yeah, so it says he approached
animals that work, you know, Passover coaster house, you

(10:54):
know, outdoor cats after is Neighbors pets.
Well, closer, their house. I'm not sure his house, but, you
know, he would just appreciate he just be walking around like
this cat lives there. I know you live there, so I'm
gonna kill you by that would be like, you know, I can't stand
you. I don't know if it was this is
way worse than that lady. Who likes stole a cat when they

(11:15):
Ubers and that's what I thought of like.
When I saw this story and I was like, another cat story.
Lovely. Wow.
People are just, I don't know why you so mean to cats cats are
well, awesome. Okay.
It says, his Killing Spree, brought fear to pet owners
across the seaside resort, who was too scared to let their cats

(11:36):
out between October 2018 in June, She was 19.
He's got the you're not supposedto let your kids out because
they like destroy local birds the cats.
Yeah. Like if you can keep them
inside, I mean that makes sense.So, I mean more than likely when
the everyone was afraid to take,let their cats out the bird

(11:57):
population, flourish, any suspect, it probably
skyrocketing, he's probably helping out in his own stupid
way but yeah, he was caught after an owner of One killed cat
set up a CCTV overlooking Alleyway outside his house and
call him attacking his final victim.

(12:18):
Good job. Yeah.
But yeah, did he have anything to say about this when he got
caught? I mean, there's probably a
video, there's a video of him being questioned about it.
I've watched it, I just want to know, like, did he say anything?
I'm pretty sure he has somethingto say about it.
I was he just like y'all can leave me alone.

(12:39):
Hey, leave me alone. Let me kill these cats.
Yeah. Oh my God.
But yeah, there's I mean there'sjust I like to Justice the
Justice True Crime Story is I find they're really nice because
they're Justice for the the cat population and their owners so
well. I mean all this is people are

(13:01):
set. That's sad.
Yeah yeah bummer When Killers get caught is sponsored by the
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(14:07):
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And make sure you tell Brittany that I sent you. - speaking of
bombers. Oh yeah, we heading into another
Massacre. This is one of the the first
random just killing massacres inthe US.

(14:53):
And I was reminded of this killer because I covered one of
his victims in my women who survived series on Tick Tock,
and well, if I say the crime of the century, do you know what
I'm talking about? Probably not, or the townhouse
Massacre, definitely not happened in Chicago, July 13th,

(15:14):
into July 14th, 1966, this man killed eight, nursing students.
His name is Richard Speck I knowthat name.
Mhm. Interested me for a couple
reasons. Well, first thing is that I find
it interesting that this might be one of the first instances of
I was too drunk and high to remember murdering eight people

(15:37):
and then he somehow managed to avoid the death penalty, but
after he died a video where he and other inmates were pretty
much having a drug-fueled orgy. Was mailed to the press and he
was very famously. Quoted in that video, that was

(15:58):
shown to politicians saying. If they knew how much fun I was
having in here, they would cut me loose.
Hmm, so that like sort of reignited, the conversation on
capital punishment and the 90s when that video was released.
Well, there you can still see clips of it?
You you can they don't show the the sex, right?

(16:20):
Of course. Yeah, well yeah, that's this guy
is weird and it's just us a lot.You're going to sympathize with
him in some ways and then in other ways not so much.
Okay? But we'll start with the humble
beginnings of Richard. Benjamin spec born on December

(16:43):
6, 1941 he was the seventh of eight children born in the small
town of Kirkwood Illinois shortly after he was born his
father Benjamin And moved them to Monmouth.
So that Dad could work in a warehouse, Dad wasn't really
highly educated, and he did a lot of hard labor jobs to
support his family. Richard and his younger sister.
Carolyn were significantly younger than the four older

(17:05):
sisters. And two older brothers.
Because of that, Richard definitely was very close to his
dad. But Dad worked like really long
hours because he was the sole Breadwinner.
And so pretty much, he had his hyper-religious mother, Mary
Margaret and his sister. Caroline was really his only
like friend when he was growing up and the both of them

(17:28):
definitely had one hell of a time dealing with their moms
religious Obsession. Look, if you're a kid who grew
up near any sort of fundamentalism, they should
sound pretty familiar, you know,the punishment for acting out.
At all doing childish. Things is damnation in Hell
Fire. And on top of that, Mary was

(17:49):
what's called a teetotaler whichwas a mid 19th century, movement
of people who abstained from alcohol.
So, and it's like, it's not enough for you to abstain.
You got to be a little bit overbearing to like, you gotta,
you gotta push your beliefs on people, too.

(18:09):
Huh. Mary was definitely a little bit
jealous of the relationship between Richard and Benjamin
because she had raised all the other children exclusively.
Hmm. And so here's the little boy and
like, they, like, you have children.
So do you have a A child. That's more like you.
I mean they're both equal parts me but Cassandra.

(18:33):
I'd say she acts more like me because like well, that's funny
because all I hear when we're onlive stream.
Is that girl screaming her head off?
Okay, I'm pretty sure I was likethem.
Well, I just went like the thinghere.
Was that Benjamin was a very quiet calm guy.
And so was Richard. And so I think that that sort of
energy was something that they both kind of I've done.

(18:56):
So Mary Margaret, like I said, she's a good standard, she's
hyper-religious and then she starts kind of suffering from
empty nest syndrome. As all of the older children are
moving out getting married. She like, like when I say
struggling, I mean, like sobbing.
When she had to send Richard andCarolyn to school, like, big bad

(19:17):
arm, In school, Richard was polite, but he struggled with
reading and paying attention andthey realized that he needed
glasses, but he hated them and he wouldn't wear them unless his
dad told him to, and he hated itbecause he didn't like when
people looked at him, he actually disliked any attention
of any form. He wouldn't read him publicly.

(19:38):
If he was, he wouldn't read publicly in class if he was
called on. This was something that the
school was trying to work on with him and then when he was
six in 1947, Benjamin died from a heart attack.
Oh no. And this is really hard on
Richard, I believe it. Like I said, they had that

(19:58):
really calm quiet Bond and all, you know, fix your old.
Richard wanted was to grow up and be like his dad.
You know, I've spoken about the loss of my mother and the way
that I walked around like prettyaimless for the next like two
years after she died the same. Hang up in here to richer, but
he was only six. He couldn't understand how his,
like, Mom and his sisters and even his teachers, like move on.

(20:22):
And for the next three years, herefused to do any of his
schoolwork, even the stuff. He knew, how to do.
He wears glasses, he stopped being like this polite kid who
was a little bit troubled, and he became just sort of a
problem. Hmm, his family was just like,
I'll get over this grief is likethat, you know, but then when

(20:42):
Richard, Was nine. His mom was traveling home from
Chicago. And she met a man on the train.
Oh, and his name was Carl. Sandburg, Carl was this
traveling salesman and he was helike extreme opposite of
Benjamin's back. He was a smooth talker.
He was a drunkard, he smoked. And this 100% went against
Mary's religious morals, but he didn't matter cause she was just

(21:07):
oh, my god, of course button. What's that called dick-notized
listening? She invited him to meet her
family, like from that meeting on the train.
She said, come meet my kids, youknow, mmm and Carl spun this
yarn that he was going to be a man who could help her raise her
children. Richard didn't approve, it all.

(21:28):
He was openly hostile to this man like but not in like a way
of like you know like fighting him or anything.
But like just in the way that like when kids don't like you,
they just be blank face. Yeah.
They let you know they don't think so man.
I got more involved with Carl and this is only a couple weeks

(21:49):
and so like his older sister Sarah was kind of like the
surrogate mom and like, Sarah, loved her younger siblings bird.
Richard saw her is like, just anextension of mom, so he didn't
really. So mind you after just a couple
weeks of knowing this man, it's May 1950.
She takes the whole family on a train ride and doesn't tell any

(22:12):
of the children where they're going and they show up at a
church fuck. As she gets, married to Carl.
I'm fucking knew it. Come on.
Richard. As disgusted as if and then he
was extra upset because Carl also signed the papers to adopt
him. Oh, come on.
And Like, he was unhappy to the point where any time someone

(22:34):
called him, Richard Lindberg, hewas like, no, that's not my
name. Let me ask you.
Is there like a thing where kidscan say, I don't want to be
adopted by you. I don't think so.
When you're so little, you don'tget to make that choice.
He was only nine years old. Yeah.
But I'm like I honestly don't like you sir.

(22:55):
Please don't you know what you if you want.
It happens all the time though. My god, I've got personal
stories of friendships where people like just meet someone
and move to another state. I'm just like you just upgraded
your whole family for somebody. You just met what is wrong with
you? But regardless this was the
first time that I think, Richardvery much begin to resent his

(23:19):
mother and the fact that she blindsided him with this
marriage and she didn't seem to care about how it affected, his
feelings at all. Because like he was so upset,
they allowed Richard and Carolynto go back to Illinois.
Well, Mom stayed in Texas with Carl.

(23:40):
That's where Carl lived. So so he could finish out the
school year because it was May so you'll have like another
month and they stayed with Sarahand they were like, well, you
know, maybe once he's got some distance from the situation, you
know, it'll be fine but like he just sunk into a deep depression
that nobody could pull him out of like he'd been kind of

(24:01):
failing at school before, but now he was barely attending and
when he did show up, he didn't talk to anybody who was there.
If a teacher spoke to him, it was like, you didn't say words
to him. Oh, wow.
But the school was Like, we knowhe's moving.
So like whatever was going to pass him and like her hands, the
situation. So then everybody moved to the
world town of Santo Texas, whichis about 60 miles away from Fort

(24:23):
Worth Texas, and Mary kind of got the shock of her life.
When she walked into a house full of empty, whiskey bottles
in every room ashtrays the wholehouse stank like old tobacco.
Oh, so you didn't know this before your marriage.
The man. Oh man, you know that and the

(24:45):
thing is Carl made a lot more money than Benjamin ever did.
But it didn't matter because he spent everything that he didn't
give to marry for the housekeeping on booze and
tobacco. And then when she got there, the
town was talking about Carl's 25-year criminal history.
Excuse me, look for jury drunk, diving, drunk, driving.

(25:08):
And you just married him after acouple weeks, she's she's
devastated because you know she made a commitment to move back
home. It's okay.
Well Carl wasn't okay, Dad to Carolyn, he would like bring her
a little like gifts and stuff when he came back from his trips

(25:28):
and he definitely kind of loved Mary at least in the beginning,
but he was a complete and total piece of garbage to Richard.
He was spiteful because the little boy had liked him and so
he would take any chance that hecould to verbally, like, cut him
down. Well, sir.
There's a reason why I don't like you, your asshole.
Well and see when Richard wouldn't respond, then Carl

(25:49):
would launch into These insults that did what they were supposed
to, which was undermined the like team sees.
Tiny bit of confidence is child had and so like, Richard been
angry and sad and just full of Despair for so long.
And Carl became the face of thismonster for him.
Carl was the reason why he was embarrassed so easily he had

(26:12):
trouble. He was awkward.
Carl was the problem and by extension.
So it was Mary and Richard kind of put up with it.
One day until Carl made a comment about About his father
and Richard swung on his stepdadand Carl kind of just knocked
him to the floor and laughed in his face.
So then Richard went and grabbeda hammer from The Tackle Box and

(26:32):
tried to attack him and Carl slapped it away, and the hammer
hit Richard. And he like dropped.
Oh, and Carl. Can't panic because he was just
like, there's no way anyone's going to believe me that this
was an accident because everyoneknows that I can't stand this
kid. They're going to I tried to kill
him. Yeah, you got motive, sir.
I'm sorry, but and he had tried to kill him.

(26:55):
But what he did do was give Richard A traumatic brain injury
at the age of 10 years old and there goes, yep.
Always isn't it. Well, first you said religious
mom and then you said bring injury.
So I was like goddamn. Here we go, here we go.
Carl solution was to move and they would move a lot in 1951.
They moved to Dallas and the movie with the family moved 10

(27:18):
more times over the next 12 years from Chua, crappier home
every time. Hmm.
Like worse than worst poverty, as they kept going.
And what's worse here, is that even after the fact that like
you, like conch to this kid in the brain, he couldn't stop
being awful to him. And his mother didn't know about

(27:41):
the brain injury by the way, Richard told her, that he'd been
playing on the tire swing near the pond and he'd like, fall on
and his, his his face. Hmm.
I would have been like, no, thisdude hit me.
I don't like him. Why did you not know about it?
Well, if he had this like anger and happening before after the

(28:05):
injury, he really struggled withkeeping his emotions in check
and he start like flying, Into these very violent rages.
In 1952 his brother, Robert was hit and killed by a drunk driver
in 1950, that was Richards. It was that not the senior
brother, but the one in the middle and, He kind of blame

(28:33):
himself because he was like if we never left you know Monmouth
then we would have all been together and this wouldn't have
happened, you know, and about 12years old, he started drinking.
Strangely enough as much as he hated Carl and blamed Carl for
all of the bad things in his life.
He also mirrored some of the worst traits of a stepfather

(28:56):
took on his bad habits and that was the drinking and he also
began taking the random drugs that car left around the house
as well. What the hell?
What the hell? Yeah.
He struggled through school. He repeated the eighth grade and
then he failed ninth grade and he was just like, yeah I'm good
and quit just before his 16th birthday.

(29:19):
Like I said, this isn't surprising that he quit school
because he barely spoke when he was there and he was usually
drunk or high when he showed up,he got arrested the for the
first time in 1955 when he passed out at a construction
site. That's because he was wasted
after that. He got arrested for pretty much
every low-level crime, plausiblethat have trespassing,

(29:43):
pickpocketing drunken disorderlypossession, the cops got so used
to seeing him that sometimes, iflike a crime happened they would
just stop by his house and be like.
So you know, anything about this?
And for some reason he didn't lie, So he would tell them if he
did something wrong. I mean honest criminals by his

(30:03):
late teens, he was still living with Carl and Mary but like it
was barely, he spent most of hisdays and nights out in the
street looking to score. Get a little brief moment of
relief from his depression. If he had friends, he didn't
really talk about him. He was a, as he chose the
tattoo, he was on the road to hell and he got the infamous

(30:25):
tattoo. Ooh, that would get him caught
eventually it says born and raised hell on his arm.
Oh nice. His family was like, he's going
to die. They're going to knock on the
door, and we're going to have togo identify his body.
Interestingly enough, what happens?
Next kind of change that trajectory a little bit.
So Carl started spending more and more time away from home.

(30:48):
He was tired of how Mary and Caroline were always like
worried about Richard. And he was getting worried about
Richard because the little boy that he bullied and abused was
now grown ass man and he was like, if he wants to fight me, I
might not be able to win. I'm sorry.

(31:09):
It's just like yeah yeah. Consequences were you freaking
actions dude? Well you know people abused
children are cowards. Yes it's true.
Karl used work as a means to lieabout where he was going.
But really what he was doing washe would go to these other
cities and he would like find a girl there and He would like,
just, you know, stay at her house and whore his way across

(31:32):
the country, while trying to sell insurance and crap.
And drinking, he said, being gone for weeks, then months.
Then finally, he met a lady in California, and moved in with
her and her children. And as Carl started, leaving
more Richard started staying home.
And when the postcard came saying that Carl was never

(31:55):
coming back, Richard kind of went back to normal, he quit
drinking and doing drugs. He got a job to help his mom and
sister out at the 7Up Factory, and he pretty much told them,
I'll do whatever you want me to do.
It's a really crappy but it was consistent money way, more
consistent than him like stealing he did begin to like

(32:17):
work his way up to less awful jobs and Funny, because he was
making less money than Carl had made.
But he was giving his mother more money because he wasn't
drinking away every paycheck, right, right.
They finally had like a nice clean Home Free from bottles and
the stink of tobacco. Well, Carolyn had a boyfriend
that she was confident enough tointroduce to the rest of the

(32:40):
family. Richard was like, this is great,
because he found Caroline's, need to be like, nice to him
overbearing hate like he's like,I get it, you're my sister.
Stir but like stop please. No, how no kisses.
He was very repressed. He spent all his free time.

(33:01):
Working. One of the things that happened
here was that he was like the man of the house but he didn't
have any power in the home even though this was all of his money
and energy being used to keep the household running and this
would be the first time that he got violent with a woman.
One night, he was trying to talkto his mom about something and

(33:24):
she dismissed his opinion and hebeat the crap out of her, two
broken eyes and a broken cheek. He was 19.
My God that like I said, the first time he was violent
towards women and it wouldn't bethe last time he started
drinking again because he used to get these horrible headaches.
Obviously from the hammer he took to the head as a

(33:46):
ten-year-old, you know, he nevergot checked out because no one I
knew about it, Carolyn and Mary would smell the whiskey when he
came in the door and just avoid him for the rest of the night.
Because they were like, he's gonna hurt his sister.
Next, probably the violence against Mary was seeing kind of
differently by both women. Mary felt she deserved it

(34:11):
because she married Carl and Carl had been abusive.
However, Carolyn was blindsided by this violence, and she was
very confused. She always saw the best in her
brother. And so with this like confusion
in her way, she viewed him, she started like focusing on her
relationship with her boyfriend who she invited to be at the

(34:33):
house more often. After that, that person became
her husband, they got married, and he moved into the household.
Her husband tentatively acceptedRichard as the sort of weirdo of
the family, but this was anothermale income in the house, so
everybody was kind of living comfortably now, mmm.

(34:57):
Nice, nice. Now, Richard was very like
introverted. He didn't really enjoy doing
pretty much anything social he specially didn't want to do
things with his family, but there was one thing he liked.
The Texas state fair. It's one of the biggest in the
country and supposed to be one of the best like state fairs to
visit and in 1961 he was there and he met a girl.

(35:21):
Her name was surely an app Malone, she was 15 and he was
22. She assumed that he was younger
because he kind of Acts a littlebit younger and they were both
there like with their parents. Women and sexuality were a sore
subject for Richard, his whole life religion had told him that
sex and sexuality. Body were wrong and so like, he

(35:42):
viewed like his mom and his sister as like pure and perfect.
And so he pushed down like the feelings of Desire that he has
for years. And so when he first meets,
surely he definitely views her in the same way like she's just
like beautiful virginal girl andlike that day.

(36:03):
Like they spent the day together, they held hands.
And both the families thought that this was really cute, that
his family, never mind their goodbyes at dusk.
They learn that they both lived in Dallas and I like, oh, we'll
meet up in Dallas. Back in Dallas, things moved a
little quickly. Richard didn't know what a

(36:23):
relationship was supposed to look like having only seen his
stuck father or lecherous Carl, hmm.
So he was like, I like to go drinking.
You want to go drinking with me?Yes, let's go.
He will win. You think that wasted day
drinking and they ended up on a construction site, having sex

(36:45):
and they both seem to really enjoy this.
So they Added doing it all the time.
Okay. I mean moderations a good thing
too. Nope.
Richard was that not a lot of his repressed Sexual Energy from
his entire childhood. Shirley was like, we are
obviously in love and Richard was like, yeah, well seal of
same, all right. Same thing works for me.

(37:08):
So, like it was interesting. Cause remember, I told you that
he used women is like, perfect and pure.
Uh-huh. So he was just like, well, you
know, I bet you she wouldn't do this stuff.
If we hadn't drank all day, like, that's I thought I've been
corrupting her so he was just like, it's fine outside of the
fact that like she gets wasted and we have sex.
It's still perfect. Beautiful virginal.
Surely well, maybe you sucking so wasted.

(37:32):
Maybe well he was happy, nothingmattered, Young Love and then
they were pregnant. Yay weeks later.
Oh, lovely. So they were supposed to go out
on a date and he was like, yo, you want to go to the bar?

(37:53):
And she's like, I can't, why areyou not high?
So she's like, hey, can we go talk and there?
She told him she was pregnant, both of their family was like,
oh yeah. Y'all got to get married, of
course. Yeah.
So and they organized it so thatlike, it was very fast so that
she was not showing Shirley's family, definitely expected him

(38:13):
to To do the right thing and he absolutely married her.
She moved into the house with his mom and his sister.
And her husband Mary began teaching her.
All the wifely thing she would do to be a good Homemaker.
It wasn't the worst situation imaginable.
I hear a but coming first, see these thoughts popped in for him

(38:37):
when he met surely. She was that beautiful perfect
virgin now she's not she's pregnant, she's a whore.
You did it to her. Well, I gets worse one night,
she declined him because she wastired and he held her down and
he physically beat her and sexually assaulted her.
Mmm. In fact, she refused to have sex

(39:00):
with him from that point forwardand he it pretty much was a
daily occurrence that he would beat the crap out of her and
rape her and Shirley was in a terrible position.
She's pregnant. She's married to this monster.
She doesn't have a job and she doesn't think she can go home
her. Only friends were Carolyn and
Mary who were also both afraid of him.

(39:21):
Yeah. Even more.
So after seeing what he done to her, Wasn't the sister's husband
was still in the he was, and I wonder about that.
It's a rough situation because there's definitely a time period
in the past where it was like, maybe he beats his wife.

(39:44):
I'm not a business to business. Hmm so I wonder if it was like
that for them. Yeah but everybody in the house
is afraid of him though. The webinar.
Yeah. So he hasn't do anything when
the other man's around, of course.
Not. Okay.
Well Richard stop taking extra shifts.
He started drinking the headaches again.

(40:05):
He was violent to pretty much ends our to everyone in the
house when the Boos stopped helping with the headaches, he
turned a pills. He started poly abusing drugs
trying to find a way to self-medicate.
It still abusing his wife prettymuch every day, eventually
started going back out onto the street and like not coming home,
which did make the women in the household feel safer.

(40:26):
But financially, they were like fuck.
Yeah. You struggling.
Again. Carolyn's has the most like
listen, I can't pay for two wives and a mother-in-law and
me. Cop started seeing Richard down
at the precinct again. And when the heat from the
Dallas PD was too much, he wouldhop on a train to a new town and
start fights there. Why just don't fight because

(40:49):
vitamin feel better. Oh my God.
Surely kind of held onto the foolish notion that, you know,
he's gonna get clean, and he's gonna get better for the baby
and She really gave birth to Robbie Lynn's back on, July 5th.
1962. And she was definitely alone
when it happened, and that's because he was in prison.

(41:13):
In, McKinney Texas, for putting a man in the hospital during a
bar fight, when he came back to Dallas, Shirley and his daughter
were gone, He tried to very muchlike insult and berate the
information of his mom and sister but they were like, no
thanks. Hmm.
He was miserable not just because surely the horror
thought poorly of him but because his mom and sister who,

(41:36):
you know, are definitely still virginal Angels were mad at him.
Okay, so he quits drinking. He's like, I'm going to prove to
my mom and my sister. I'm a good man.
He got his job back. But he started drinking again,
and now, it was, like, starting fights at work and like he knew
he was going to get fired and then he did something kind of
stupid. So the employee checks would all

(41:59):
get like, put together at the end of the week and this one
spot. And so, Richard grabbed his
check, and another man's, check course, he did.
And he forged his coworker signature and cashed it.
And then he like got real paranoid.
He was like, they're going to show up at my door.
I'm gonna get arrested. Oh my God. and so then he was
like, when the police didn't show up unlike Sunday, he like

(42:23):
broke into a grocery store and Because he didn't realize that
like they empty the money out. Yeah which is what every
business does and you always do that because you never want to
have like a pile of cash on saying no sir.
He was only able to steal three dollars that was left in the
till. He also stole some beer after

(42:44):
realizing what a terrible Vivi was, and then he went to work
and he was promptly fired on thespot because they were like,
you're the only person who woulddo this.
And so he assumed the police already knew everything.
So, he told them, he admitted tothe fraud and the burglary, even

(43:06):
though they didn't know anythingabout it.
Thanks for the info. Yep.
He just assumed they are. They knew that's why they were
there at his job. And so he admitted to fraud and
burglary charges and he was gonna go to jail for a total of
forty seven dollars which in ourmoney we're talking about 300
bucks. So come on.
No that's not, no, he's playing prison at Huntsville.

(43:32):
Given a 60-month sense. Yeah. 12:18 year and a half.
Sorry Batman. My part.
He honestly was mostly left alone in the prison because he
was emotionally unstable and they were just like, we're just
gonna leave this weirdo alone, he made it through that I did

(43:55):
right 60 months. Yeah I was wrong, 60 months in
prison unharmed but covered in jail has tattoos when he came
back home. A lot had changed Carolyn and
her husband had moved out because they were expecting a
baby. So Mary was like, sure you can
come back but she was like smothering him and He hated it.
Also, now without Caroline's husband, to stop Richard, he was

(44:18):
able to like help his mom, bro information about Shirley
Shirley originally struggled, but she had gotten contributions
from her church, from Carolyn and Mary, and her own mother,
had helped her. And, you know, she kind of
bounced back. She was doing.
All right. She had a baby, she met this

(44:39):
guy, his name. All Richard knew was that his
name was mr. Price.
Ice and they were kind of takingit slow until mr.
Price realize that, that she waslike popo like he was like, oh,
this is really bad. She shouldn't be living this
way. And so he kind of like
fast-track their relationship and so he was going to like
marry her, but she was still married.

(45:03):
Richard took this information, okay?
First one thing it did was it, solidified in his mind Shirley
is definitely a whore. Like all women are whores and
this is totally her fault. Not mine because all women are
whores. Yeah, of course, not my fault.
I didn't do anything here. So, January 9th, 1965 a week

(45:24):
after being released because he was actually released after only
doing 12 months parole. He got wasted.
He spent the last of his money on on booze and attack a random
woman on the street. Oh my God, he got caught a few
blocks away and was convicted ofaggravated assault and put in
prison again for 16 more months back to Huntsville.

(45:44):
But what happened is that He ended up getting let out early
because we supposed to be concurrent sentences.
So he got released 10 months early because of a clerical
error, the system was like, oh, he's just back in for a parole
violation. Not a parole violation and 60,
more months. So he reached out to his mom.
Again, he got a job at a Meatpacking plant.

(46:06):
Now, he was an ex-con twice over, so he didn't have a whole
lot of choices for work. He worked there for three months
dry. He was a delivery driver.
He got in six accidents and somehow Didn't fire him until he
just didn't show up enough times.
Are you serious? I mean that, that tracks.
He very like he got. He made a friend with a lady who

(46:27):
owned a bar and her name is Jenny.
It was called Jimmy's Lounge. Ginny was cool.
She's 29 years old, X pro wrestler, who like it be
feeling. And so he started spending all
his time here, but like, it wasn't just to drink.
It was also like to flirt with Jenny, I mean, who am I like
this busy? Body Mary was like, where's he

(46:49):
going? So like one day, she like
followed him when he left the house and saw him.
Go to James Barr and she's like,ah crap.
He's drinking again. So she went inside to look and
there. She saw him like sitting at the
bar, like, just talking, mmm to Jenny and like, it raptured by
Jenny and like, and she's like, oh, he likes a lady.

(47:11):
So like she, when he came home, she like started trying to like
get information. So is there?
A new woman in your life. What's going on?
And she really wanted him to like she really wanted to
encourage him with this relationship because Mary only
had a part-time job and Richard didn't have any money and she
wanted him out. So she kind of manipulated him

(47:34):
into thinking that he should be a father figure to Jenny's
children because he very much was like upset about the whole.
I can't see my kid thing. So what's really happening was
that he would watch Jenny's kidsand then he would spend the
night with Jimmy. She got a free babysitter and he
had his lust sated and his mom wasn't bothering him, but he's

(47:57):
nice. Okay.
When win-win of course, Richard can't just take joy, this nice
arrangement. He started kind of getting
bothered by the fact that the seem a little transactional for
him. So he started sneaking down to
the bar while she was working atnight.
And he found out. Okay, so this mmm, this is one
thing that really irks me. January of, nineteen fifty-five,

(48:19):
surely Falls for divorce. Mary's, the one who told him.
Even though Richard is separatedfor years and living with
another woman. Hmm, he is enraged why?
Cuz You got another lady, doesn't matter who cares that

(48:44):
night he was downstairs and he like saw a customer like give
money to Jenny and like hold herhand too long and he freaked out
starts beatin the crap out of this guy.
He ended up being the man until Jenny and some of the customers
friends like through him outsideAnd then she ran over to the pay

(49:07):
phone to call 911 and then he like pulled out his knife and
nearly attacked her because he thought it was one of the men
like she was shocked. She's like, this is the guy who
I, yeah, leave around my children, exactly.
So she never spoke to him again.Because it was a stabbing.
The police took him in for questioning and for the first

(49:29):
time in this criminal record, someone was like, maybe maybe he
has some mental problems. Because the way the cops up that
it was that his previous crimes had all been a means for him to
get drugs or alcohol. But this was kind of the first
crime of passion for him, and the cops kind of took pity on
him. When they realized that he'd
attacked, the man who'd been flirting with his girlfriend.

(49:51):
And I like this and he was just defending his honor and the
fight got a little bit out of hand.
I'm pretty sure you pulled a knife out and like it ain't get
out of here. It just started out of hand.
Well, yeah, because the other guy wasn't aware that it was
gonna be a fight. Exactly.
He's just paying for his alcohol.
The local police actually running on a push for jail time

(50:11):
but because of his previous arrests they just couldn't
ignore it. Mary.
Mary realized if he went back tocourt he was going to serve for
a really long time. So she got like a warrior for
him and the lawyer argued everything down to a misdemeanor
of creating a public disturbance.
He took a plea deal and agreed to pay $10, which he couldn't
pay because he was broke. So they put him in jail for

(50:33):
three days, okay? He did his time, he went back to
Mary's house but He was pretty convinced that Mary didn't want
him there, and he knew he couldn't go to Jimmy's house
because he was like, she might be my ass, and she's big enough
to do. I'm pretty sure she would.
Hmm, he started working like, odd jobs, to make money and move
out. You still drinking Polly abusing

(50:54):
any drugs. Could get his hand on after
about two months. He see it, but a little bit of
money and he bought a car from aguy.
He met at a bar. His plan was to drive somewhere
and start a new life because in his mind Dallas was just a whole
lot of bad memories. The car was a crappy investment.
So he was like, I'm going to break into a shop and still 70
cartons of cigarettes out of back and he starts selling my

(51:14):
the back of his car. He realized that everybody who
bought those cigarettes from himwas a witness so he abandons the
car and grabs the cash a warrantout for his arrest the next day
because he had been in the car and it still had all of the
papers in it and so they went and they talked to the owner and
the older was like oh yeah I still do this guy Richard.

(51:37):
And so he hadn't abandoned house, he showed up at his mom's
house. And she was like, you need to
get the hell out of here. My neighbors already say they're
looking for you. When she's like if you get
caught, you're going to jail fora long time.
This would be his 42nd arrest. Oh, my God, in Dallas.
So Caroline shows up in her husband's car drives into a bus

(51:57):
station, and buys them, a ticketto Chicago to avoid, going to
jail. I mean, hey, he's family.
So he goes to Chicago. His older sister, Martha picks
him up. Martha was a lot older than him,
so they barely had any of a relationship because she was
already moved out of the house. By the time, he was like, born.

(52:19):
I'm she had a husband and his name was Jean Thornton and Jean
didn't really like Richard, but he was like, I'm a grin and bear
this, this is my like wife's younger brother, he's a bum, but
whatever. So Jean very much was like,
yeah, you know what, you should move back to Monmouth.
Didn't you love Mom meth? And like within days they would

(52:42):
have mom lost her. Mom is freaking like, yeah, I
know you just came here but guess what?
There's a better. Please, listen, his last
surviving, brother Howard, the oldest picks him up and gives
him a job and while richer was still drinking, a lot of his
paycheck, he did better there. Howard tried to, like, What is
baby brother? But the two had very different

(53:03):
Lifestyles like how it was just like a straight-laced kind of
dude, and Richard was a druggie.So when Richard moved out to a
hotel on March 25th that year, he was pretty happy about it.
He ended up getting into a bar fight shortly after moving into
the hotel, spent a couple days in jail.

(53:24):
His job didn't fire him, but they were like if you miss one
more day we're going to kick youout like before when he had
gotten reprimanded at work, he started becoming abusive to his
co-workers. And while he was a really good
worker, he really brought the morale down.
Part of his sour mood is that because he hadn't had sex since
January. Well, that's your own fault,

(53:45):
sir. And so he was kind of jonesing
for a fix and then his mother isa genius, send him a letter
saying that the divorce had beengranted because he'd missed all
the court dates. So so wait, okay, so she filed
for divorce and he got into the fight and January.
Yeah, three months later after he know what was going on the

(54:08):
court system, he was avoiding the court system, so he
definitely wasn't going to show up to court always in.
So he went right back on his bullshit, drinking drugs and now
he picked up a new crime that hereally liked rape.
His first cry. His first victim was Virgil
Harris. She's in her 60s.

(54:28):
She lived in one of the homes that Richard liked to hang out
him when they were being built. When he was a teenager, I can
you get high and, like, Squat and those houses.
So, he's familiar with the area and he noticed, she lived alone.
He very much. Watched waited, and plan this
attack against her April 3rd. He breaks into her house, ties
her up blindfolds, her assaults her, Rob's her, and then says,

(54:51):
thank you and good night on the way out.
But Richards, rage still wasn't stated though, because she was
like older, he kind of held her in this Dame esteem as his
mother and therefore he could not you her, like he viewed the
young Horrors that he wanted to punish.

(55:12):
Oh, so you're gonna punish her now well.
So week later, he's out drinkingand a female bartender makes a
joke about him and he gets real upset.
And so near this bar was Was like a little farm type area and
he had been one of the day laborers who had helped build up
part of this farm. Specifically, a pig pen has

(55:34):
something that he had done. So he kind of want, you know,
storms out and they standing near the pig pen and the
bartender. Mary, Kay Pierce comes out and
apologizes to him and he punchesher in the stomach with such
force that he ruptured her liver.
He dragged her deeper into the pig pad and he was going to rape

(55:56):
her but she fought back and she managed to like, unsettle the
pigs to the point where they were making noises and he got
kind of spooked. And he left her to die in the
pig pen, which happened shortly after look here, these these
these these women bartenders don't mess with them.
The fuck you? Well, I mean she was just like,

(56:17):
yeah, hey, you know, I'm sorry. And yeah, she came out to
apologize. You're a nice guy and like but
like he you know, that rage, that issue that he had with a
rage. It was because at that moment
she was a stand-in for who he was really mad at.
He was still mad at surely. Okay, well that's still your
fault and this is him doing whathe wanted to do to Shirley to

(56:40):
somebody else. So that was his circuit for his
anger. The police were immediately
suspicious of him. They were like, well, he knows
that area, he helped build that place.
He was at the bar. His boss was like, hey, if you
come in, you know, I can give you more work and the cops
picked him up this time. Richard lied.
He told them. Yeah, I've been there.

(57:01):
He's like, yeah, I worked on this site, but I don't know
about a murder. The police knew that the
timeline he given them for, where he was.
That night was weird, but all they have is circumstantial
evidence. They decided they were going to
stop by. They were like, you know, don't
go anywhere. So when they decide to stop by
his hotel on April 18th, he is not there, of course but he

(57:23):
don't. Listen, he taking all his
clothes and left. He told the hotel clerk, he was
getting gone to the to wash his clothes and his hotel room.
He had left all the stuff that he had stolen from Virgil's
House, along with other burglaries, but the police found
no evidence of Mary's murder there.
They looked for him but he had jumped on a freight train and
went back to Chicago, you shouldhave been marked his doorstep

(57:46):
and he was like there were drug dealers and they Want me to sell
the drugs. He's like, so I had to leave.
I don't want to sell drugs, Martha.
And like if Martha had been somebody who knew anything about
the real world and wasn't as straitlaced as she was.
She would have known that. That made no sense, not at all.

(58:08):
So, I'm gonna Force you in this selling drugs.
Well actually know that that's athing, but it worked out because
Jean was working nights, so the to didn't have to see each other
and so Gene was less angry. Problem was, Richard had
discovered the things that made him stop being so, angry,
killing, somebody and raping. Somebody, my God, the rape thing

(58:31):
worked for him because he struggled with seeing women as
anything other than pure virginsand if you consented to sex with
him, it messed up his fantasy. If he took it from them, it was
his choice, not theirs. And he found a certain peace
with mixing violence and sex andthe power that he got over
women. Mmmmm.

(58:52):
So Jean be in the smart one. Here was like, yeah, well, you
know, you're kind of a piece of crap.
I doubt that you could handle joining the Navy and so Richard
was like, I couldn't join the Navy.
Are you talking about? I like jeans, very manipulative.
And if Richard took the bait, signed up strangely, though in
the beginning, being the Navy was really good for him and he

(59:13):
stay out of trouble. It was almost like having a set
place to be at every time reallyworked for him.
And then one day, he missed a shift.
It was May 3rd where there were still in 1966?
Oh my goodness, he missed his shift and his commanding
officer, some people look for him.
They found him curled up in a ball in like pain and he had

(59:36):
like a like hot to the touch fever and they were like,
there's no doctor on board but like this is obviously some kind
of infection. So they Helicoptered him to the
it's Keweenaw, peninsula in Michigan to st.
Joseph's hospital because his appendix was very big and it did
not burst a goodness because that's a real long time every

(59:58):
time but he did have an emergency appendectomy and he
woke up free from Pain and very high on drugs.
Uh-oh. May 20th a week after being
released from the hospital. They put them back on the ship.
He started drinking again. His Superior officers were like
he's really not fit to be a seaman originally they let it

(01:00:22):
all slide but they were like, listen.
If you can keep it together, youcan drink and he was, he was
sloppy. Hmm, I know you're laughing
because of the word season because you are a child Ryan.
That's what you call this C soldiers.
Anyway, haha, that's even anyway.
I'm sorry. Well, he managed to get together

(01:00:48):
until about June 14. When he confronted an officer
while he was drunk and they werelike, nah, you're done.
They set him back to Shore and he was fired without pay for his
time on the boat. Oh yeah, that sucks.
He went back to Chicago but he'slike I can't really face Gene
and Martha so he finds like a cheap rooming house.
To live in East Chicago on 99th Street and South Ewing Avenue.

(01:01:11):
He really only had one friend inthe world in his mind and her
name was Judy. Okay.
So it's like aneema. She was a nursing aide who he'd
met when he was recovering in the hospital and she really was
like just a friend to him. There was no it was confusing to
him because he only viewed womenas Saints or slots.

(01:01:31):
So here's this person in the middle who's just treating him
like a regular person and just being regular.
Nice to him. So he called her and she was
just like, listen, come to Michigan.
You know, I'll, we can hang out and he took a training matter
and Haughton, she took him to the Douglas house which was a
local hostile, they had lunch and they did he can talk about

(01:01:55):
getting fired from the Navy and she and talk about the messy
divorce that she was a part of and they kind of spent the
afternoon laughing and when it was time for her to leave she
gave him an envelope with $80. Which is about six hundred and
seventy dollars today. So it's not a little bit of
money like I said he was really confused because she didn't want
to have sex with him. Therefore she wasn't a whore but

(01:02:17):
she wasn't fulfilling the role of being like the virgin mother
either. The next day, he went back to
Chicago with more money than he pretty much ever seen.
Any time. He went back to G and Martha and
they very much weren't happy. And like Gene was just like, you
got to work like you can't be here and not work, Buddy.
So Jean was like, you know what,we gon go to the union hall for

(01:02:44):
Navy men as and I'm you and he'slike, you going to keep looking
to see if you can get on anotherboat problem was nobody wanted
to hire him because they knew hewas a drunkard who like to start
fights. He managed to somehow get
invited to work on the SS flyingspray which was a cargo ship

(01:03:06):
that was headed to South Vietnam.
At Nam, but when he arrived there, someone else with more
seniority was given his job. And so he was really upset about
that because he had taken a cab and spent a lot of money, it was
a 30 minute ride to get to the port.
Okay. And so he wasted a lot of that
money that Judy gave him to go there, and he spent pretty much

(01:03:29):
all weekend complaining, and drinking and yelling.
And then on Monday morning, Martha and Gene drove him into
the city with his suitcase and was like, you got to go Oh,
somewhere, but she can't be here.
Removing, sorry. I don't come back to our house
and pretty much Martha was just like, you are too old to keep
relying on me. And like, trying to help you is
ruining my marriage. The next day he went back to n.

(01:03:51):
Mu hiring Hall. He got an assignment for the SS
Sinclair on great, Great Lakes, which was an oil tanker when he
arrives the Sinclair. Same thing happened.
He'd even have enough money to rent a room here so he slept on
a construction site. Wednesday July 13th, he tries
again at the hiring Hall. He's really angry.

(01:04:13):
He's getting the runaround Martha and Gene had come to like
give him a ride and they talked with him at about 9:00 a.m. they
were parked on East 100 Street which was near the loo
elementary elementary school andacross from a nursing
townhouses. After about an hour and a half
of waiting for work, he got tired and left.
He took his last $25 and walked to the shipyard and which was

(01:04:35):
another rooming house that had aTavern.
There, he spent the rest of the day drinking, and two different
taverns, he met a lady, who was her name is Ella, Mae Hooper,
she's 53 and convince her to come back with him to his hotel
room where he raped her at knifepoint.
And stole her 22 caliber. Rome pistol.
Oh, which had a gun. She'd have a gun.

(01:05:00):
Okay. Okay.
He brought a gun to a Shear. Only got one life like she
brought a gun to what she thought was a casual sexual
encounter. Yes, but unfortunately and it
was not Then he took himself outto dinner at case, pilothouse
returned to the shipyard Tavern,at about 10:20, p.m. went

(01:05:22):
upstairs, and came back down. Dressed in all black, carrying a
switchblade and L is handgun. He hadn't made that much money.
From stealing from Ella. But his plan was he had seen the
nurses coming and going this up to this week while he was at the

(01:05:46):
union hall and his plan was thathe was going to show up there
and he was going to rob one of the houses specifically the
house on 23:19 East 100 Street at about 11:00 p.m.
July 30th 1966. He walked to the door and he
banged on it four times a Woman by the name.

(01:06:06):
I'm of corazon, I'm Mauro, open the door.
And he pretty much by the time, she opened the door, he had his
gun out, and he was just like, hey, where are your companions?
He then woke up another. Five residents of the house, and
he was just like, I'm not going to hurt you.
I see enough money to get to NewOrleans.
She will the women need a Josh mall and Patricia matusik?

(01:06:29):
Offered to go get their purses right away and he was like you
can do it one by one. The other people who were there
were Pamela welcoming and Melitagargola And Valentina pacion.
They had been yanked out of bed and like physically like picked
up by him, so they were freaked out.
Yeah, the other two women were like, we'll go get our purses
because he hadn't touched them, but like the ones who had been

(01:06:51):
like physical. Like, one of the girls have been
physically yanked out of her, like, bunk bed.
He was like, listen, I'll let you go one of the roommates
Gloria Davy bust through the door drunk.
She thinks that she's gonna get in trouble from her roommates.
And she walks into Robert are robbery and he grabs her.

(01:07:11):
Throws her on a ground ties. All of them up and he's like,
listen, this is not, I'm not going to do anything.
Like I just don't want you to run and call the cops as soon as
I leave lies. Well, what happened here was
that something kinda took over him?
He standing over this group of beautiful women.
These are women who have never given him the time of day and

(01:07:33):
he's just like, I have complete power over them.
So he untied Pamela enough that she could like walk and he was
just like, listen, I just want to talk to you alone and he
pulled her into like another room.
So then Suzanne Farris and Marianne Jordan arrived home and
they kind of like walked upstairs and then they walked by

(01:07:54):
And they see Richard standing over there roommate with a knife
and the both of them try and runaway.
He closes that door and chases the other two of those women
down And no point yet, had he hit anybody or hurt anybody?
But Marianne was trying to fightand he was like, oh cool.
Now I can hurt you. What?

(01:08:16):
That was? That was it.
He stabbed her death and while he was still holding Suzanne
down and then he chokes Suzanne left them in a room.
Went back to the bedroom where he left, Pamela tied up and she
was terrified and she didn't fight back at all.
And he Just was kind of disgusted by the fact that she

(01:08:38):
didn't fight back and he just very quickly stopped her.
Well, yeah, you got all the power.
I can't do anything against you right now.
I've got me tied up. What do you he was?
He was getting off on this role of them fighting.
I'm sorry, sir, but you're not getting what you want.
Well, this went on for the rest of the night, he would kill one.
He would go to the bathroom. Clean everything up.

(01:09:00):
Then he would go back into the bedroom where he had them all.
Tied up, grab another one. And he knew that there were
eight women who lived there, butwhat he wasn't aware of was that
he had nine women in the room. Because horrid corazón core.
I didn't live there, she was just visiting, that's right.
And so while he was gone at one point Cora begins slowly sliding

(01:09:24):
under the bed. And Hiding.
Hmm. And some of the other girls
tried to do that too. But they didn't quite get all
the way under the bed and he ended up pulling cooking them.
Yeah finally though he was just like my last one and he was he
felt like he was alone in the house.
So he picked up Gloria and he was going to his people.

(01:09:47):
He raped her before he killed her and this is like from korres
testimony which was that she watched it happen and she she
saw Gloria go to another place. She pretty much at that point
had completely disassociated from the night.
And Cora was afraid that if she even breathed, he would know

(01:10:10):
where she was under the beds anddragged her out to Richard was
exhausted at this point, it had been hours of it's not exactly
easy to stab. Someone to death, it is
physically demanding, true true.He dragged her out of the room
by her feet into the hallway. She was still alive at this
point and then he was like ah here's a random piece of a

(01:10:31):
sheet. And he grabbed, it wrapped
around her neck and he choked her so hard that it like cut
into her neck. For Richard, this was the best
night of his life and he's like,whoo.
I could I'd all this control over women.
He washed himself up kind of ants that they're there.
A bodies. Hey bedrooms.
I got this or you know eight beds.

(01:10:53):
Yeah, he didn't remember that Cora had been the one to even
let him it. Oh goodness.
Okay, she waited and climbed outof a window in the room after he
dragged her out of the house. She was sitting on like a ledge
and Near like the first floor, roof sobbing.

(01:11:15):
And one of the girls across the street woke up and saw her that
girl was Judy diketon. And Judy was just like a lot of
those girls over there are pretty dramatic, but Cora is not
dramatic and she's like, she's not sitting on her roof.
Crying over a breakup. So Judy wrapped herself and like
her robe and like ran across thestreet and as she got closer she

(01:11:35):
could hear Cora just saying overand over.
She's like they're all dead. Oh my God.
Are all dead Judy made it to thefirst flight of steps and she
saw Gloria on the couch, naked and choke so hard.
That her head looked partially, severed, and she ran back across
the street. And she talked to her house
mother and mrs. Bison.

(01:11:56):
That whole house of women walkedwith mrs.
Mason because mrs. Bison was, like, I need to see
this for myself. Like she went inside the house
alone and then came right back outside threw up on the front
lawn. And called the hospital where
they all worked and was just like all of my girls have been
killed. And the receptionist was like,

(01:12:17):
excuse me. And she said, you seemed to send
somebody while mrs. Bison is throwing up on the
lawn, the girls like wave down. The police Corazon is Falling
apart on the front lawn. Actually she had jumped down to
try and stop mrs. Bison from going in.

(01:12:38):
She's like, no, no, no, it's really bad in there and buy some
is like nah I got this. No, you don't want traumatize.
Obviously, you did not get it. First officer who arrived, his
name is Daniel Kelly. And he like, doesn't know what
to do here. Everybody is like, screaming and
crying. He saw the first murder. and he

(01:13:05):
was like, okay, I gotta I gotta walk around the rest of the
house and after he confirmed that nobody else was there like
the killer was gone. He radioed for assistance over
the radio? All the cops heard.
They're all dead. Oh God, give me the sergeant and

(01:13:25):
then he said I dated her sister.I've never seen anything like
this. Wow.
So he knew one of the victims. A local reporter overheard.
This address on a radio and rushed over, of course, Daniel
Kelly is like one almost shot him because he's like, why are
you rushing at me, bro? And Joe Cummings is the reporter

(01:13:48):
and he walks up the steps, like he can tell just looking at the
police officer like some bad happened here and like Dale's,
just like you really don't want to go in there and he's like,
no, no, it's just a murder. I've seen a lot of murders and
Like he walked on the first floor and he was like, oh yeah,
this is bad. You know, but like this cat
like, okay, something's can't get any worse.

(01:14:09):
Well, then he walked around the rest of the house and then he
came out and also vomited on thefront lawn.
Oh, he got worse in this Earth. Yeah, fuck out of here.
In fact, when the other officerscame up, they saw the reporter
like freaking like, you know, that and they were like, I look
at this guy until they saw what happened?
Everybody's havin, a few fast. Everybody was like this game be

(01:14:31):
that bad. What are you talking about?
Out. And then they saw it happen.
A doctor actually came from the hospital where they all worked,
and gave Cora a Saturday of. Because she was having a
full-blown breakdown. Like I said, she was just there,
visiting Frank, flannagan the commander of Chicago's homicide
unit came and was just like, Joe, you can't say anything.

(01:14:54):
He's like, I don't want anybody to know about how they were
killed or the rapes. He's like this is going to bring
out a lot of weirdos in Chicago.He's like an people are going to
try and take credit. It's going to mess up our
investigation. Joe crede core was taken to the
hospital for observation and like it was really sucky because
the cops didn't want to like re-traumatize her but they also
need to know like bare minimum what the guy looked like.

(01:15:16):
Yeah. So she did give like a
description barely before she was fully sedated.
And the cops took that and went looking for him, he had bitten
by a gas station and had droppedoff like his stuff randomly and
the gas station attendant was like oh yeah I remember him.
He was you know hate like a weird stuff.
Thunder. All the attendant was like, oh,
he was complaining about being at the hiring Hall and how they

(01:15:40):
kept giving him the runaround. Oh, you don't say so, the cops
were like, oh perfect if he's inthe Navy.
They we got everything. We have this guy.
Yes. So the Navy was just like a
first like the main that guy didn't know who he was, but they
were just like, oh no, we got this fingerprints.
Photograph, everything matches. Exactly what Cora said, they Him

(01:16:03):
within the first two hours of finding out about the internet.
Nice, very nice. Their next deal was that we have
to find him before he kills anybody else because we've never
seen anything like this. We've not had a crime where
people murdered an entire house of people before, we don't know
what the next step is here. Richard headed back to the end,
took a shower and went to bed after murdering all those

(01:16:25):
people. He went drinking with his
buddies that morning unaware that Chicago was looking for
him. He's just having a great old
time. Yeah.
He met some of his old classmates.
He was like, Hey, Wanna Party atsome point during the day, they
did hear that there had been a Survivor to this attack in East
Chicago. Richard got back to the n and he

(01:16:46):
had a call from Gene, and Gene was just like, hey, there's a
job down for you. The union, I love Jean, I love
you. Richard was like, what?
Good luck. I can get out of Chicago while
we're looking for me, but then, as he sat down, like, thing
about this information, he was just like, wait a second.
The union doesn't call you. You have to go down there and

(01:17:08):
get the job. So Jamie was like, he's like I
don't think my brother-in-law's been down there doing me any
favors, so he called the union, all himself and the staff, who
was normally pretty rude to him were like, oh yeah, we do.
I have a job for you. Mr. Speck.
Come on down, I love it. I love it so much.

(01:17:28):
The problem was they told him that there was a job on the the
Sinclair Great Lakes and it was like I guess the guy forgot that
was the same job they'd offered him three days ago.
Hmm. Because he was like, okay so he
definitely remembered that one because he spent all his money
on a cab. So he knew they were in on it
and he knew he needed to leave that damn it.

(01:17:48):
So he ended up running away. He went to the other side of
town. He hired a prostitute who saw
his gun and told the hotel workers.
He had a gun and the hotel called the cops.
And I looked at his IDs and his paperwork, but since things went
so slow back then every Precinctdidn't have his picture yet,
right? Right.
And so the cops let him go Chicago.

(01:18:10):
P.d., however, were chasing downhis path that he had been
through. They did find the shipyard in
and confirmed his i.d. They found his schoolmates.
They talk to them, Richard then met up with a couple, like he
like, ended up like hanging out with a bunch of hobos.
And he was like, hey are you guys leaving like what's a good
train? Hop on again in town.
The hobos were like this guy's weird is terrible, right?

(01:18:37):
We'll listen. I'm not gonna make an assessment
on hobos. Are not bad people.
Yeah, me either. No, no, definitely not, but you
just like random as people enterlike you're fucking weird.
Don't know if I could you do this.
Well, so he went to a liquor store on his way, back to the
little hostile. He was staying at, and that is
what he saw his Pace on every single newspaper.

(01:18:59):
Mmm, one of the hobos called thecops and the cops were like, who
is this drunk man? Talking to me, Richard Chuck,
this little bottle of wine smashthe bottle on the cot that he
was sleeping on, and then cut his wrist, all the way up to his
elbow and waited for death. The cops didn't company
ambulance did and in the ER, as they were saving his life.

(01:19:21):
One of the doctors was like, this is the guy they're looking
for. You need to call the police.
They recognize the Born To RaiseHell Tattoo that Cora had
mentioned seeing things went quickly.
At this point, they had 133 pages of testimony from core
about that night clothing, with blood on it fingerprints.

(01:19:43):
Somehow Richard Speck got the best public defender who ever
existed in the history of PublicDefenders.
This is terrible. This guy got so much of the
evidence excluded. He was like little that pistol,
you got illegal, search and seizure because the prostitute

(01:20:04):
told you about it, and you didn't have a right to go into
his hotel room. Also, she's a prostitute and
reliable witness that Bloody t-shirt, that could have been a
planted. Every witness you had every
witness they had. After the crime happened, was a
drunkard. And therefore he argued that
they were unreliable, their testimony was unreliable
prostitutes. Are not unreliable Witnesses.
Listen, he Even tried to push toget eight different trials and

(01:20:30):
he said, there's no way I can get he can get a fair trial in
Chicago because you put his faceon every newspaper.
So now everybody who lives in here is part of the jury pool
and they're going to be tainted,everyone's real fucking Rex
thing. Well, here's the thing judge
passion did agree to most of thestuff except the motion to
separate the trials. Okay, cool.
Now he was like he killed them all in the same night.

(01:20:51):
It's all the same trial because what, what?
His Lawyer Jerry was going to dowas kind of create like a
mistrial situation. He tried to find an expert like
Jerry. So I get e, his name was Gerald,

(01:21:12):
Getty call him Jerry because that's much just made me get
her. Yeah.
But Gerald get he tried to find an expert.
Who would say that? Richard was clinically insane.
He was having trouble. He did get a brain scan and saw
his brain injury was pretty severe and affected the part of
his brain related to emotional control and it had continued to

(01:21:33):
not form properly after the injury.
Jury. Right?
But that wasn't enough for what he was trying to do.
There was a psychiatrist. He spent a lot of time with him
and his name was dr. Zipporah in and the porn
diagnosed him with anxiety depression OCD.
The problem is, those are all things that come from you coming
down off of drugs, all things that happen to people those

(01:21:56):
supporting was the first one is zero in, on Richards, Madonna
whore complex though and how this dominated the way he
interacted with women and was a big major thing.
It was, it took six weeks. Even outside of Chicago, they
filtered through 600 jurors to find a jury that made both
sides. Happy interestingly enough, even

(01:22:18):
those the porins supported Richard the lawyer discovered
that support him was going to write a book about him.
A book that I actually read for this podcast and therefore the
both the defense and the prosecution were like we don't
trust this Doctor. They're like what?
If he does something to make thetrial go, whatever way he wants
for his book, right? So none of them wanted him to

(01:22:41):
testify and so he did trial started, April, 3rd, 1967,
drove, Getty ripped. The prosecution to shreds from
the jump, he argued that the fingerprints were compromised
because officer Kelly had allowed Joe Cummings to just
Waltz through the house, which is true.
He should have been allowed to walk through an active crime

(01:23:01):
scene. Porter, come on.
The prosecution's case was falling apart and then our girl
Cora showed up. I'm going to say once you look
like a boss and I'm going to give you this moment to show you
a picture of her because she looked like a g.
Like she showed up with a whole Entourage, she had quietly like
arrived in the city. And everybody who was going to

(01:23:25):
testify are part of that trial was all sequestered at this
Ramada, Inn They're all one spot.
Yep. Let me see if I can find some
good pictures of her. So, I love this one picture.
She showed up with Lisa glasses on and I was like, she looks
like she's ready to fuck shit up.

(01:23:47):
And love to see it. You little fishies their
bodyguards like walking into thetrial.
Yeah. And she's a tiny little Filipino
lady. She does.
She looks like she is ready to tell some serious business who
is. She is the mob boss and they are
her bodyguards. I love it.
Okay. And the thing was she was poised

(01:24:08):
confident and control the entiretime.
She was talking, she got on the stand and explained everything
in detail the newspaper articlesabout.
By this were, like, the room wassilent the entire time and all
you could hear were the cry, like, the parents of the victims
crying. Because this was the first time
that they had heard everything in this kind of detail, like

(01:24:31):
they might have known like, oh, your daughter was stabbed, or
your daughter was choked, but like Korra gave some very
intense testimony and then the best part I said she's a G8 like
what? A cool lady.
She ended her testimony and theywere Like well, do you see the
man who did this in this room? She left the witness box walked

(01:24:52):
over to his table, pointed him in the face.
And said, this is the man who murdered my friends.
Mic drop, no fear love it on April, 15th.
After 49 minutes of deliberation, the jury came back
with a guilty verdict for all eat murders.
He was sentenced to death. But his lawyer, did some lawyer

(01:25:15):
ring and managed to get a stay of execution while the Supreme
Court of Illinois. Look at the case, On November
22nd 1968, the Supreme Court, the lower court ratified that
sentence 1971. However, he was able to find
evidence that the prosecution had excluded over 200 jurors,

(01:25:38):
because they were anti-capital punishment.
And so, they looked at his trialagain, and he was given a new
sentence on November 21st, 1972.He was resentenced to 400 years
in prison. So death right life with Richard
would request parole hearings every time he was eligible.
1976, 77-81, 84 87, 1990, prettymuch until the parole board

(01:26:05):
realized that he was bored and that's the only reason why he
was doing it. We do get a hobby, he's gonna be
in prison for a long time and hehad no options and prison.
He pretty much ignored the rules.
There's a horrible story. They call him the Birdman, okay,
because there, Bird that like flew into his cell and like had
a broken wing and he kind of kept it as a patent nurse it
back to health. And so at some point the warden

(01:26:29):
came down and was like, you can't have a pet in prison, bro,
you're in prison. And so he took the bird and he
threw it into a fan, o killing it and spreading blood all over
his cell. He was like, well, if nobody can
have a pet, like, if I could have a pet, nobody can have it.
He's like, fuck this bird, wow. Yeah, again very unhinged.
And everybody knew it. And that was very dramatic and

(01:26:52):
Uncle for sure. I was going to ask you if this
was. I don't forget who the Birdman
of Alcatraz is. No, that's where they got there
were like oh you're just like the bird man.
Yeah, that's where they got the name from like people knew about
that. But no, no, the warden was like,
you can't have birds and he was like, well, let me kill this
bird in front of you. He got drugs.

(01:27:13):
He got moonshine. Smuggled in when the guards
challenged him and were like stop.
He was just like what you gonna do another hundred years I mean
actually sorry add another thousand years is the direct
quote. Oh my God, he only ever did one
interview in prison, it was for the Chicago Tribune and he

(01:27:34):
admitted that he did Kill the woman, he felt nothing about it
and he barely remember the night.
He died the day before his 50th birthday 1991.
A lifetime of drug abuse had destroyed his heart, and he just
had a massive heart attack scientist took his brain and
they were like, oh, we go. And look at them.
They discovered that they were major abnormalities in his

(01:27:56):
hippocampus, which controls yourmemory, and the amygdala, which
controls your strong emotions, the hippocampus and amygdala
were fused together, which is not what's supposed to happen.
So, it turns out that like, He probably didn't remember a lot.
Hmm interesting. If the part of his brain that is

(01:28:17):
responsible for memory is completely malformed.
Yeah. They took a bunch of tissue
slides and they mailed them to Boston and someone stole them
and they have no idea where theyare.
Oh, they assumed it was for someone's probable, personal and
creepy collection was once a someone is creepy Museum.
The rest of his body was not claimed by his family.

(01:28:37):
They finally managed to contact Coral.
You know Carolyn and Carolyn waslike fine we don't want to I
don't want to bury him because he'll have like some creepy
Monument to his name. So she was like let's just
cremate him. Throw his ashes, in the wind
will be fine. He kind of figured out the

(01:28:59):
spotlight. People forgot about what
happened and then in 1986 a video gets set to Chicago
newspaper. And it Richard Speck is there
one. He has boobs, which they think
he got from getting hormones smuggled in.
He is performing sex acts on other prisoners.

(01:29:22):
Snorting cocaine having sex on camera bragging you know, as I
said in the beginning, if they knew, how much fun I was having,
they turn me loose, Illinois. Lawmakers, are embarrassed
angry. This was released right after a
scandal. That happened in Illinois with
guards sexually, assaulting women prisoners and so they're

(01:29:42):
just looking at like, the peopleof Illinois are like, what are
you all doing? Like, not your job.
And the one person that they hadwanted to kill here.
He is immortalized mocking. Them for letting him live.
Okay, did he have boobs when he died?

(01:30:03):
He might have. Yeah.
Okay, one, quote lives kind of, on from that Soul interview that
he did. When he first went to prison,
they asked why he did it, you know?
And he very nonchalantly said, it just wasn't there night.
Fucking strangers, people's fucking God, but I do want to

(01:30:24):
end on something. Nice, talking about our lovely
Survivor Corazon Amora Atienza, she moved on with her life.
Originally, she moved back to the Philippines for a little
bit. She got married in 1969.
She moved back to the US settledin Washington DC where she
worked at Georgetown University Hospital as a critical care

(01:30:46):
nurse and then the Veterans Medical Her until she retired at
68 years old, she became lifelong friends with the police
and the bodyguards, and the prosecutor prosecutors who
watched over her leading up to the trial and afterward.
People very much tried to protect her from the
obsessiveness of the fandoms andthe creepiness there.

(01:31:08):
Unfortunately, it wasn't the best for all the other families.
Some of the families of the other victims were harassed, not
in the States, but in the Philippines, in Manila.
No, and I was really upset. To a lot of people Corazon is 78
years old. She spends her days.
These right now, take care of her grandchildren.

(01:31:29):
She has a daughter named Abigailwho is a nurse as well.
And her son, is an accountant, he's my Ace, her last interview
response was in 2016. The 50-year anniversary of the
crime? She didn't do any direct.
She doesn't do any direct talking to the Press.

(01:31:50):
The former assistant attorney William Martin spoke to the
Press on her behalf and said, she's happy, the case still
changed everybody at touched. They still exchange emails.
He says that Korra still have nightmares about her attack and
she does Harbor some survivor's guilt still but she looks at it
as if someone somewhere maybe God was looking out for her that

(01:32:13):
night. And yeah, love to see it.
Okay, that's a good. I like the ending.
That's nice. Yeah, decided we would add it
on, you know, because like I said, I we talk a lot about a
lot of people who die and not that often, about people who
survived like pretty horrible things.
So I did run a whole series. I'm going to add more to it of
of women who survived, I do remember watching that video.

(01:32:35):
Now, we're those glasses on looking like a genius, The first
letter name I was like oh I remember that was it means that
the prosecutors. They coached her very well
because you can't show any weakness.
You can't cry on the stand. They use that against you.
Right? And Jimmy were like cold as ice
Cora. She was almost even even in the

(01:32:55):
interview that I saw the ChicagoTribune with Martin with a
William Martin. He talked about that moment
where she got off the witness box and got in his face and I
was like he was like, that was that was Brave.
He was like, that was awesome. Something happened in, Ted

(01:33:16):
Bundy's case. Ted Bundy was like, are you
sure? It's me.
And she was like, I'm absolutelysure it was you.
Yeah, he's like, how do you knowit was me.
Who attempted to murder you. I saw your noxious, fucking
fascia dipshit. But anyway, what do you have for

(01:33:38):
us? I'm sorry.
This one went a little long today.
But no, it was a great story. I love it.
I'm okay with it being. Well, well today let me give you
a little story time, first? Okay, it's a little personal
story time. Actually, is something that
happened to me. Now, I like to think of myself

(01:34:00):
as like sort of sensitive, okay?Like a sensitive not you know
what I mean? Like someone who's, this is
actually the have you had experiences.
I've had why have we never discussed this?
I've had experiences, I've had acouple of experiences, it was
some point. We got to do a, we're gonna
record this conversation and make it like a bonus for the
patreon. Yeah, and like it kind of runs

(01:34:26):
in the family too. Okay.
Yeah. Like with my mom, she can meet
her. We had this thing.
Like we have prophetic Rings. Oh, I don't like that.
Yeah, it's kind of shitty, my sister.
And I have had. We've had shared dreams multiple
time, huh. Nice.
Yeah, it's my family that runs down the indigenous side the
indigenous women. I think that's yeah this is for

(01:34:47):
us like she can tell when someone's gonna lie she has
dreams of people being pregnant and like someone who's trying to
hide it and she's like as well. I just wanted to say yes I want
your mom to never have a dream about me.
I need her to keep that energy away from me, but that evil on
me? Ricky Bobby.
It didn't happen. If she calls you one night and

(01:35:08):
says No, I dream about your podcast co-host.
Just be like Schneider and Mom know you did.
Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.
Keep that evil to yourself. Um, well like that.
But I've had at least a couple. The last one I had was with a

(01:35:30):
friend of mine. I use quotations around friend
and he's somebody you don't like, no.
It's someone that How do you saythis Friends with Benefits?
Oh okay. So this was like years ago.
We work together so, well, that's a terrible Choice.

(01:35:54):
Yeah yeah. Whatever you work with is such
an awful Choice sir. Anyway so one night I had this
dream about her with my other friend that I worked with oh no
and and she's like the ancestors, let you know.

(01:36:15):
Yeah. And then and then getting done
dirty but still dang. It's funny because I wake up the
next morning. I'm like, damn, that was a
shitty as dreamily. I feel real bad.
I felt bad like really inside, like just terrible.
We're rest of the day and she's like, I hadn't seen a message me
like later. And I said, I have something to

(01:36:35):
tell you, I'm like, you slept with this such and such and
she's like, how do you know I'm like, because I had a fucking
dream about it. I, I know he's things.
And then she's like, I don't believe you'd only whatever.
Anyway, you gotta believe me, girl, I know I know.
No, I renew. But um, I-i've had I'd see I'd

(01:36:56):
say like a couple experiences when I was a child as well.
The one I'm going to talk about is I'm going to say, it's kind
of like a sleep paralysis type of thing.
So um, you know, we were in our attic.
Me and my brother shared room. Oh you're adequate.
Your room has an attic. Yeah, but is awesome attic.

(01:37:17):
Okay, it was very spacious. It's a big help, that's good
because I think Those little tiny little swoosh the little
closer. No, yeah.
That's what I have my house now.But no, you feel like a whole
bunk bed. Yeah.
Room enough for all my space foractivities.
Yeah. Someone's face reactivities.
Oh my god. Um, In Overlook my parents room.

(01:37:41):
So there's a little door to overlook their room.
One night laying in the top bunkand for some reason like I wake
up and I roll like the covers over my head.
The light turns on. There's like you don't hear

(01:38:02):
anybody walking. You, like just turns on Yvonne
situations. I was like a light at the bottom
of the steps like you flip it on.
Yeah, upstairs. Yeah, I got exactly that's how
it is in my parents house, but no, we walked upstairs.
There's nobody walking at all. So, it was, like, laying there,
like, looking up in my, you know, my eyes were open.
I was not moving. I was like, I don't want to move

(01:38:22):
because I know there's somethinglike they just it, I just felt
like there was something around me and Arrested.
It was there's nobody walking around right and I just happen
to realize that I have 50 million things.
Oh my God, my phone, and I'm deleting them all.
And all of a sudden they're justlike this black figure.

(01:38:47):
No, I think that just crosses like it just waves across my
face. I don't want to need the blanket
and I can see it and Zane, nothing like turns off.
And that's it. Are we talking about Shadow

(01:39:09):
People today? Oh my God.
Yeah, we're talking about Shadows people today.
I have positives and negative experiences with us.
Mmm. Yeah this is um, I don't know.
I think well, the interesting thing is that I've heard people
like the lady who I watch on Dead Files, she talks about
Shadow People in a different way.

(01:39:31):
She talks about them being like Ancient and inhuman.
Yeah, that hasn't been my experience.
They're the ones I've experienced seem like people
there, there I can. So that's okay.
Please explain more because I'd be like, what is she talking
about? Yeah.
Now shaped like a people and they just kind of some some of

(01:39:52):
them are some of them are not, so shadow people can be
associated with of course sleep paralysis.
Before we get into too deep intosleep paralysis.
Get a little history of these shadow things.
So the earliest depiction of a shadow being would have to be

(01:40:13):
from a short story from 1887 titled Lahore or The Outsider it
was written by a French author. Guided guy did 1 plus r naught
okay so that's French. Yes, I did not.

(01:40:35):
Take for instance, I made a video and I called the man, Gary
plauche. His name is definitely push a
push but I don't know why my brain just didn't he's from
Louisiana France. Whatever occasion.

(01:40:57):
Yeah. Oh well we make these mistakes
whatevs. Yeah.
So in the story he tells Tells the tale of an aristocrat.
Who's driven to Madness, the character complains of being
afraid to sleep, where he has dreams, there's a shadowy
presence. See anyone his chest and it's

(01:41:22):
using its it has its the shadow has its mouth pressed against
his and it's literally, he can feel his soul leaving his body
in these dreams. It's okay.
And that sounds pretty scary. Yeah.
Now, I don't know much about sleep paralysis.
Might have had sleep paralysis that night but who knows?

(01:41:45):
Um, but I know that people who deal with it, kind of have,
like, similar descriptions like a pressure on her chest and they
can barely breathe, or they great, right?
Yeah, stuff like that. No, the actual word shadow
people were person or Shadow being whatever.
First came up in a radio drama from 1953 titled, the creatures

(01:42:12):
in the shadows. I wish you to have read with
dramas wol. I mean, this is kind of a radio
drama. This is a bit podcasts are kind
of. I mean, there are podcast that
people do as radio drama. Yeah.
You know, I do love those and you kind of tried to do that
with your YouTube channel, as which we could totally do
something like that as a third podcast.
But before we go, Third, we needto make the first one

(01:42:34):
financially soluble. Okay, we got a million ideas but
we need that patreon money coming in.
Okay. Oh my God, but you know what?
What are these means? Like you said, some people say
they're like inhuman or you think of them as human.
Some people think of them as demons or right?

(01:42:56):
Yeah, I've heard that or ghosts or, you know, just figments of
our and sleep. Battled Minds.
Yeah, but what if you don't be sleep, when he's here, that's
message. Well, I'll tell you what, they
aren't there. Actual Shadows.
There have been accounts of these shadow entities,

(01:43:16):
interacting with objects in ghosts.
Like have you ever heard of a shadow touching a person or a
shadow moving an object? No, because when I hear things
moving, that is a poltergeist and we'll talk.
We'll L won't deal with that. No, let me tell you two little
Tails, okay? So, or one account and 11 year

(01:43:38):
old girl, she's potsie. This is that night, she's in
bed, she spots a six-foot-tall outline of a person standing in
her room facing her TV away fromher.
So, just imagine, yeah, that sounds exactly like Poltergeist
fam. So in the TV turns on by itself,

(01:43:58):
well like that but continue now after TV turn on this outline of
the person shadowy person it turns around to face her and
after you know a few seconds of them just staring each other
down. It just disappears.
Yeah I've heard lots of that they just kind of like sobayed.

(01:44:20):
Yeah almost like so you're goingto turn my TV on?
And then leaves out rude. Like, like, my dad is things
just kicked in. I'm like, I had to like I don't
like call myself down. I was like, you're wasting my
freaking lecture. So you robbed.
My field is gonna be this one out.
Thanks a lot. You wasted our electricity,
ghosts booze. Another account is when they

(01:44:46):
were actually being touched by something, So guys sleeping on
the side and his bed you know night time when suddenly he
feels someone sit down right behind his back and then he
starts to feel someone poking him in his back.

(01:45:08):
He opens his eyes and he looks up.
And he sees three shadow people looking good.
We don't like around his room, that's too many.
Now he did not look around and he did not turn around to see if
anybody was behind him to. Yeah, so he was too scared to
move around. I feel you, so, Either way after
he's done looking at them, they disappear as well.

(01:45:31):
Hmm. Yeah, so now we can go and sleep
paralysis. Well, it's okay.
We'll talk. What will ask questions about
when it happens when it doesn't happen?
When you're sleep? Okay.
I don't think I have the answersjust there right now.
Hmm. Now, there's a common theme

(01:45:51):
with. Well I've seen in this book
actually. I forgot to mention my source
this book I bought is cold Darkness walks.
Okay hold on. There's a subtable to it.

(01:46:12):
It's called Darkness walks. I think it's about my candles
acting up. Okay, I get it anyway.
I'll tell you I'll after I'm done, I'll tell you the whole
table. But you know what?
With the with the accounts I've read in this book, sleep

(01:46:35):
paralysis has been like the common denominator, most of
them, or like them being, like, it happening at night or them,
or this happening, after a person wakes up, and not, I
don't know if you know this, butlike, The sleep paralysis it's,
you know, traumatic for my understanding.
Yes. But it happens during REM sleep

(01:46:57):
to write what it is is that you are in a deep sleep and your
brains like, haha, I'm awake. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And during REM sleep, there's this chemical or these hormones
that are released that are supposed to stop you, from
thrashing around, and actually acting out your dreams while

(01:47:18):
you're asleep. I wish they did.
I wake up all scratched up. I didn't hurt myself.
Me sometimes this happens and then the person wakes up during
REM sleep and they can't move their body because they're still
paralyzed. But there still are awake
tactic. But yeah.

(01:47:38):
But they're dreaming. Yeah.
And your body is fully conked out.
Yeah. So that's that's basically what
that is. Rosa, those who were unaware of
this phenomenon of sleep paralysis is, it's basically

(01:47:59):
like, what we just mentioned your sleep, you wake up, you're
fully aware, but you can't move your body, you can't talk, you
gonna move your, basically, youreyes and your brains, like, for
a lot of people, they see a lot of really disturbing visual.
Yes. That's hallucinations are very

(01:48:19):
common, obviously, Has know. Why do we know why the
hallucinations are? Is it just your brain being
really, really active? Yeah, I think that's just like
that. And just still being like that,
that dream state. Maybe you're seeing your dream.
Yeah, in real life. Yeah basically.

(01:48:40):
And like, yeah, who stations just don't go from visible
visual. They can, you know it's also
like the pressure, the pressure you feel that's a hallucination
to because there's nothing like really pushing pushing Down on
your chest when you're paralyzed, but that's host
nation as well. So yeah.

(01:49:04):
In the book. I've never had sleep paralysis.
I know, I don't think I have either but then I didn't I when
I'm thinking about that, tell that story I told you, I'm like,
maybe I was maybe that was that and I just I don't know, I don't
know my body just reacted to me during my cover of my head and

(01:49:25):
then it did me just not being able to move or something.
Because right after. Right after that happened, I
just went back to sleep. So, yeah, I didn't talk to
anybody about that. Where was your brother dead
below you? Yeah, so I had no bunk bed.
I was on top. My brother's below me and my
other brother was in the other bed, like a single.

(01:49:47):
Yeah. So where were they just sleep?
Yeah, yeah. Tara, I know it's horrible right
there. I'm pretty sure the house is
just haunted but stories but in this book there are different
religious takes of shadow peopleor Shadow beings as well.

(01:50:13):
No these. These beings could very well be
real or it could be your dreams or, you know, whatever.
Okay. Um, but Overworld different
religions. For instance, the Jinn is an
entity from Middle Eastern folk,lord.
They're believed to have been tobe invisible creatures, but they

(01:50:37):
wide array of bilities. They can like shape-shift, they
can, you know, I'm not sure but the Gent like and Western
Society, lot of the Jinn or Genies Cheney but they're not as
positive as like, you know, Prince Ali like it that I mean,

(01:51:00):
it's kind of a trickster situation.
It's that whole idea of like youknow you make a wish but like
are you going to get what you want?
Exactly. But Jim are not actually what
I'm trying to say, evil know, just like fairies their
trickster. Yeah.

(01:51:22):
Well these are the gym talking about that or not, evil or
actually like in the book. It says they're Muslim Jim.
Jim gent that are from Muslims. OK?
If I miss. So those are supposed to be the
good gin. Non-muslim Jin are ones that are
the evil ones, the more. So what did the good ones?

(01:51:46):
Do they do the same things as the other one.
Yeah. Basically that's the people yeah
yeah. Wow.
And apparently the good ones canactually pass as being human.
Hmm and they can even marry and have kids, that's right.
Yeah. So you can be living with a gin
if I mean, I'm not entirely upset with that concept.

(01:52:09):
Jeannie husband. This is a whole new, that's
really genie. That's how the new Aladdin was
at. The end Will Smith is with that.
He hopes on what the hell, right?
He did like that lady. I'm yeah.
Exactly. Now, the evil Jim.

(01:52:32):
There are thought to be a pit Warriors for the devil.
Okay. At least the money Jin appear as
dark figures and stalk mortal souls and apparently a Jen is
attached to everyone. I don't like that.
So, Our own personal Jen or demon Jen, you know, for us

(01:52:58):
among non-muslims. I don't get a good one because
I'm not Muslim basically sorry. She's really I can't do that.
I don't like really any religions.
So This is the funny part for me.
It's like our own personal gym. So when we die, and if you're

(01:53:23):
buried, your gin will sit on your grave in curse, you until
the end of time. What I do to you, what I do,
sir, that's what I was. I was so bad.
I was like, what did I do to you?
Why are you so mad at me? Yeah, like I could just imagine

(01:53:43):
like my gym because I'm gonna becremated.
So Imagine my gym as I'm going into like Crematory, it just
shaking his fists in Anger, theykick her.
Now what happens is, whatever mantle you get put on by either
Cassandra or jaehun. They're going to be standing
right next to the mantle like just shaking stink.

(01:54:06):
I think I'm iron and the worst thing is one of like your kids
further down the line, we'll have like a baby and the baby.
I'll toddle through and be like,look at that big weirdo.
Yes, because you know, it's always the babies that as can
see things. Oh my God.
Another religion. Almost a religion, but it's

(01:54:28):
additional people know, all too well of Shadow beings.
He's apparently, there are two different kinds.
There are some that are, you know, more aggressive to people.
They're described as being larger than average and average
person and their parents can be monstrous in nature.

(01:54:49):
So maybe whatever. Whoever you who you were talking
about earlier. Earlier.
When they were talking about shaver people and they said that
they looked like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Her name is Amy. And she does a TV show or she's
a medium and she talks about like, the the ancient connection
like ancient being? Yeah, actually, there's a great

(01:55:10):
there was a great episode where,like, if people were like, yeah,
I keep seeing this creature outside of our house.
It's like two stories high and like, Amy was like, leave this
thing is older than this gland and it's attached.
So, move somewhere else. I love those ones when she says
stuff like that. I think it's great.

(01:55:32):
Why you still there? She's like, you need to move,
like you not. Well, there's nobody who can
make this thick creature leave, because it is older than
existence, you your house is it's not your house, it's not
your house re-fry, can you imagine you look out your window
on the second floor and there's a gigantic just face looking

(01:55:53):
Shadows thing. No, looking back at you bra.
I'd go back to sleep. New house.
Go find a new house in the morning.
Like, you're not waking me up orlike, can you help us?
And she's like, knowing I know Ican, this is out of my depth, oh

(01:56:13):
my God. But yeah.
Or as that one guy from taxa, it's above my head above.
My pay grade. It's beyond me.
It's beyond me now. Yes, it's beyond me now.
Honey, oh my God. Yeah, so, you know these these
can be monstrous in nature. And these beings are actually

(01:56:39):
products of what was once described as I guess.
Bad Medicine, okay? Or bad Magic.
Say it makes sense. Actually.
So yeah medicine people who haveperverted from you know, what
they're actually supposed to useyour powers forever.

(01:56:59):
If they were originally using your powers for like, usually in
for like helping people, healingand stuff like that, and they
turn it to using their powers toattack people instead.
And, you know, they they these creatures or he's beings start
to appear. Hmm.
Yeah. So these beings, they actually

(01:57:21):
attack you physically and mentally so not to me best.
But yeah, definitely. On the other hand, they said,
Shadow beings. Can be a good present in there.
Actually. Tolerable is I guess like
Spirits like ghostly? I think?
Yeah and I have a, I have a friend whose house I stay at

(01:57:44):
sometimes and I just be somebodylike walking back and forth on
the porch. Doesn't seem to be bothersome at
all. He just seems to be restless.
I think he but I mean, I don't know.
It just seems to be a shape thatevery once in a while.
You just see it moving around inhere like all right, buddy, hope
your ass. Life is cool.
Like my goodness I'd know I wouldn't really look that bad

(01:58:10):
though. Like what's wrong with that?
I mean I guess if you're not bothering me that.
Okay. Yeah.
Like what's the problem? If it doesn't hurt you or scare
you it was true. It was no problem but fell
asleep. When goodness.
Okay. Anyways, and I do spirits, you
know, these Shadows Spirits are actually there to like guide
people are, you know, they mightgive you advice, you know,

(01:58:30):
unspeaking advice but you know, They're the guide you in the
right direction. Last, I'm going to finish this
off with one of the I guess mostshared experiences Shadow
People. Okay?
And that's the Hat man. Have you heard of that me?
I think I've heard of people allseeing a spirit with a hat.

(01:58:55):
Okay, this is he's described as a tall shadowy figure.
Male stocking the corners of people's rooms or, you know,
wherever all while wearing a hat, it could be like a wide
brim, you know, had or I think I've saw her a fedora as well.

(01:59:16):
Oh, no. What do you call those people
who just wear fedoras, what are you gonna?
I forget the term. It wasn't very positive, it's
not a positive one, so I'm not going to use it.
So used to him, it was a thing. We made fun of people for a long
time ago. Yeah.
Those Fedora wearing Males who well actually, every Milady

(01:59:36):
milady. M'lady.

(02:00:11):
So they actually might be spirits of people who weren't so
good in their lives and passed on pretty horribly as well.
So, maybe he's milady's. They were just Well, I mean,
it's belief that like, most people who stay have a reason to
fear the afterlife. Yeah.
They're afraid of what comes after.

(02:00:35):
Did I am? I am I going to be okay?
No one knows, no nose. But there are also a regular
citing during sleep paralysis. So, they might be a ghost.
They might just be your sleep paralysis demon coming too.

(02:00:56):
Sit on your chest and you know what I mean?
Hmm some ufologist think that these can you say that word
again? Followed you.
Oh we talking about aliens You always perverting my, my ghost
stories with alien talk, I can'thelp me.
There's aliens is everything. Okay?

(02:01:17):
I just want to enjoy goes. Well, this is just a short
little blurry. So you've nice and safe ghosts.
This they might be an alien species like this.
Did you kill lucky? Now I see why people keep
comparing us to Shane and Ryan because I do not share your same

(02:01:39):
feelings about helium's In theseare awesome.
Okay. I don't believe that they're
like little green people. Okay.
No, neither why. I mean there didn't have to be,
there might be some little greenaliens.
But, you know, they don't have to be looked like the big-headed
ones that everybody thinks they look like, they're not going,

(02:02:00):
we're not going to aliens right now.
I'm just saying so you follows, you think that this hat, man,
might be an alien species and he's here to observe and collect
data from us, never know. Just standing in your is like
the Men in Black. Okay?
Just and your Ryan. It's a ghost with a hat.

(02:02:22):
Sitting in the corner, taking note, these are Mama's video, we
should have video because we're like a good like 10 seconds.
My reaction was silence. It was ridiculous silence.

(02:02:43):
It was a funny, the face you made.
You never know. It could be that.
I'm pretty sure it's not that you know, 18, that's the
annoyance of the argument. You never know.
It could be. We want to think a lot of things
are aliens, but we're really just ghost.
I haven't, I wanted to like readone of these accounts from the

(02:03:07):
this book. Okay.
This is a short one is real short one.
And oh the book is titled Darkness.
Walks the Shadow People Among Us.
Hmm, I'll give it all to her later.
I'll probably I'll put in the show notes but that's the title
of the book. So this is a tail and this is

(02:03:29):
its title stalked, by shadows. And it's like I said, real
short. So, although Sarah Kelly has
never seen the Hat Man. Her mother and grandmother
weren't so lucky. And this is a, my mother, my
mom, and my grandma have always told me about this spirit, that
was following them wherever theymoves.

(02:03:51):
She said, in the beginning, theywere both here.
Heavy breathing. Beneath my mom's bed when she
was little, then one night, the monster came.
Out from under the bed, a tall man, a long coat with no face
and black holes for eyes, wearing some sort of hat.

(02:04:15):
Luckily, I've never experienced that but it still gives me
chills. Huh.
I don't think I, oh my God. Could you imagine?
No, don't imagine because I still have like that.
Minor experience where like you lay your feet off the edge of
the bed and you're like a better.
Not the one other touch my feet?Nope, I was like, you know what?

(02:04:39):
Assaulted me, we're someone was like if you have your hands
laying off the bed, the demons going to like eat it.
Eat your hand and then in the next panel they have their, but
hanging off the bed. I was going to say, if you get
your hand off the bed team is gonna hold you here.
Is that to say, please hold my hand.

(02:05:13):
Oh my God. But yeah, that's what I wanted
to do something a little out of been trying to like find more
spooky things that cover becauseI've been doing because the
Cryptids like Is it? I wanted to get back to the
freaking black-eyed children, where people listening, and it
is getting freaked out because of the little black eye
children, coming to their doors.But yeah, that's in the

(02:05:37):
black-eyed children, think? One work on me because I don't
open the door for nobody. Except if I know you're coming
over. That's right.
Don't show up unannounced. Please don't and I won't you
can't show show up. Unannounced have keys.
So they know they can get in because they have a key.
Hmm. But stranger knocking on the
door. Like listen.
The other day, a lady from Comcast stop by and I like, I

(02:06:03):
slid, the had the door slide lock on house like black lady.
And I was like, okay now open the door and she was just like
high and I was like six you own your own like box and I was like
I do and she's like, oh okay. Because for people who don't own
them, I guess they're switching to these other ones.
And then people who move here inthe future don't have to pay
for, like, a box from Comcast. Comcast.

(02:06:27):
Yeah. But I was just like, why are you
here? She was very nice, though.
Have very cute. Hair.
But I was just like, I am not expecting visitors.
No, I have that. No, soliciting sign on my door,
really? Yes.
Yeah, because oh my god. Look story time for another day
but After freaking, um, um, um, it's vacuum sellers or I forget

(02:06:54):
go door to door vacuum people that want to be a thing when we
were younger, that's still a thing and they don't leave when
you say, no, thank you, I'm not interested.
Well let me show you this. They try to keep talking
yourself like make a mess on your carpet and then vacuum it
up so that you can throw good. It works bra.
Yo, we he was do was there for like I want to say like, two

(02:07:16):
hours trying to talk is into this stupid ass.
As vacuum so, see, that's just like when you go on a trip and
they try and like they, like, will give you all these things.
If you come talk, listen to our timeshare.
Yeah, you can't do that. That's not know.
So after that, I got to know soliciting sign that says, no,
soliciting don't really doorbell, don't make it weird.
We're now open door for you. No thank you.

(02:07:41):
But yeah. That's where I got like and it's
funny because they came and theycame to the door and then they
were like, oh well, we're offering like a heat, the free
house cleaning or something likethat.
What will clean your wherever your most walked about part of
your houses? And we're like, oh, also my want
to clean the stairs today. Let's go.

(02:08:01):
So, That's not how it turned out.
So, anyway, thank you guys for listening to this week.
Yeah, we had a good time. As usual as usual can always
find us on all our social is what you're all linked on when
Killers get caught.com. Yes, check it out.
Please also links to our patreonother ways to support us.

(02:08:24):
And thank you so much for listening.
Yes. Bye-bye,

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