The Osage Nation Serial Murders that legitimized the FBI

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:20):
Everybody in serial killer country.
My name is Brittany. Ransom, my name is Brian Joyner.
And this is when Killers get caught a podcast of a deep dives
into the lives. And psyches of the Killer's, we
love to learn about Out each week.
Brian, I will find a True Crime Story that resonated with us.
Then I'll discuss one well-knownor lesser known killer, and go
deep into their childhood lives methodology.
And most importantly how they got caught and then we'll get a

(00:42):
little spooky. We'll learn something about
Cryptids or the supernatural with Brian.
Yeah. Before we start, I just want to
remind you all that our patreon is live.
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That offer you loads of fun things like a special extra
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(01:05):
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to talk to us. Ask us any questions you want.
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It's just a fun. You know, ask us anything kind
of thing that you can do every month.
Yeah, if you're interested in March, our website is
www.pevs.com and that's where you can find links to pretty
much everything we do. So, starting out this week in

(01:28):
True Crime, I I have been following a case.
I'm just the, the headline in itself is just interesting but
I'm telling you, is that a 17 year old boy has been charged
with the murder of his twin sister.
His name is Benjamin Elliot and her name is Megan.
He stabbed her in the next several times on Wednesday of

(01:50):
this week. Oh, now Benjamin claims that he
woke up between 2:30 and three in the morning, standing in his
sister's bedroom with a knife and that he didn't realize he
was in there. In fact, he thought he I was
dreaming, he removed the knife and sat down beside her and
called 911 according to claims, he's meeting Court.

(02:13):
Megan Elliott was pronounced dead at the scene.
The 911 operator and instructed Benjamin on how to perform CPR,
which he was in the process of doing when the deputies arrived
at his house. Mmm, Moments after the call, the
parents woke up. There's audio of them screaming
after discovering that their daughter was dead.

(02:35):
And so now, this is popping up in a bunch of my True Crime
groups that I'm a member of them, Facebook and other forums
with people. I'll just going, do we really
think that he was sleepwalking? Hey, there are cases where, you
know, the sleepwalking is a, youknow, it plays a big role in it,
so There have been some news reports that said though that

(02:57):
the parents initially didn't want to allow the police in
like, this is still something that is in the process of
happening on interesting. So we shall see what's going on.
Yeah. It's just very interesting and I
mean, has he have you reported history of him at sleepwalking
or anything like that? Like in an appearance on winning

(03:18):
the police and I mean, I would like it depends what time in the
morning that he called the cops and the cops came.
So he's saying that he Discovered that he was awake
like he woke up and was like, ohno, this isn't a dream at about
3 a.m. but the police only got there at 4:45 which is a big gap
from when he says he realized that he did it and when they

(03:41):
called hmm they had they detain him.
You know there's been now at this point like an initial like
hearing and what. Yeah, yeah, but yeah.
They, they have the knife, they have everything, they had to get
search, warrants to go, look in the house.

(04:03):
It's just it's really interesting.
This happened in Georgia by the way, of course Georgia.
Mmm. So yeah.
The police are officially charging him with murder
regardless. As to what the family said,
they're like listen the y'all can work that out in court with
the lawyers but this is a clear cut and dry murder case.

(04:23):
So he's already been like arraigned on the base charges
His bond set at 100 thousand dollars.
Oh, wow. Yeah.
But like, we don't know anythingabout that.
So I'm guessing that's going to come up as a proper
investigation happens, right? Because you have a history of
sleepwalking, does he do strangethings?

(04:44):
I mean some Sleepwalkers just kind of walk through the house.
There's actually a lady I fell in Tick.
Tock she's a delightful woman but like her husband set up what
it's like Sabrina spooky and she's one of those Jet Dad jokes
and all the freaking puns I don't remember that she like
she's a writer. Okay not there's another one
that just sleepwalking through the blonde lady.

(05:05):
She said Herbal. She also writes like spooky
spooky books, too, but her They just set up cameras all over the
house and there have been times that her husband has been like
outside. Like you need to come inside the
house and she's just like, but it's knowing some paranormal.

(05:26):
Only one hundred percent of sleep activity stuff.
And she has what's it's more than just sleepwalking.
It's another issue. Where There's a complete
disconnect with her brain and rest, but yeah, she's cool,
she's cool and he's very funny. I would like she just will post

(05:47):
clips of her W like of the the footage, like the cameras in her
house or just walking back and forth around the house like all
sorts of interesting stuff. So there's things like that, but
that's more than just your basic, right?
Right. Sleepwalking 7.
What he did? Well what he did if he was,
sleepwalking is more than your basic sleepwalking, right?

(06:09):
So like if he doesn't have any history of this, then it's just
like okay then was right was it something that was that came up
in the hour? It took you to call the police?
Yeah. Like did you just make this up?
But yeah, I'm looking at right here to give the kid the benefit
of the doubt for right now and then he killed his sister.

(06:31):
I mean, okay, do it by accident,he probably feels terrible.
If it was accident, I would assume you felt terrible but uh,
So anyway onto my thing. So this one's a little bit
funnier than Britney's. So apparently the streets of New

(06:51):
York. Apparently just Queens is being
terrorized by a rooster A rooster.
Rooster, it's very Rising. I was looking up the lady with
the sleepwalking and then my brain just connected.
Rooster. Yeah, yeah.

(07:13):
So apparently, there's a, these are rooster apparently well
known in the neighborhood as well and it just is attacking
people. One person says that, I was
just, you know, usually just casually walking, you know, the

(07:34):
hedge, my bus to go to work. When I felt a peck, oh my left
hand. And if that this thing kept
coming is so vicious, almost evil is like Magpie levels of of
bird violent. Blood was gushing.
Oh my God. I was trying to apply pressure
to it and it kept charging at v-0.

(07:58):
Oh man. Okay.
And like I said, the Rusev's does have a reputation in the
neighborhood and people who livein the area told me if you see
that they've been terrorized foryears by this rooster.
So I'm not sure if this is just a random wild rooster to has

(08:19):
just set up shop in Queens, but does this belong to somebody
because there's lots of people. Yeah, up there who have chickens
and roosters out in their yards because they like eating the
eggs. It's very, you know, gentrified
neighborhood. Ask this is true.
It could be just like a blow, the country white people show

(08:41):
called a chickens. I was going to say is just that
a bad thing. I mean, fresh eggs.
I was going to say, Escape cockfight, horrible plan was so
violent. Yes, he's like I'm ready to
fight. Come on now.
Where's my other was my opponents?
And this person is like, I didn't sign up for this sir, and
then I guess when the other neighbors they were laughing

(09:03):
about it, like, kids can ride your scooters.
You people can't walk in peace without being attacked by.
What is Rooster is Rooster is terrorizing In neighborhoods and
queens. Someone go out there catches
rooster and fry it up. Wow, what if that's somebody's
friend someone's violent friend I need to talk to her friend.

(09:25):
You can't talk to a rooster family.
That's what it wasn't. You need to sit that Rusev
jammed, talk to a cat. They only understand spray
bottles. This is true.
This is true. But yeah, no, you sit down to
this rooster down, tell them like hey I heard you out there.
Terrorizing everybody you need to stop order going to Cook you?
You're gonna get it? That's that's this is we're

(09:45):
right? This is funny.
Look, I like to bring the levityup in here.
You always ring the bell today, I'm bringing the conspiracy but
not in the way that we handle like conspiracy Crypt.
This is more of a well. So,

(10:17):
Sometimes I get to looking into things.
Uh-huh. And you fall down into a rabbit
hole and you can't get out of the rabbit hole until you've
read everything. You can about the subject.
I don't know if other people feel that way, but that's how I
am. And so, what started me looking
into this was that I was just looking up the FBI.
And so, I was tracking back backwards to, like, when I
started, you know, and, like J Edgar Hoover, and all that

(10:37):
stuff. And imagine my surprise, when
one of the FBI's first major cases involved a massive
conspiracy, where members of theOsage Nation were murdered
shortly after becoming the richest people in the world.
After oil was discovered, beneath their reservation
imagine that it's called the reign of terror and it lasted

(10:59):
from 1921 to 1926. Now, according to Osage Nation
history, there are still roughly60 unsolved murders from this
time, but ultimately the F be able the FBI was able to solve
all about 24 of them. Not only is this story, just
incredible. General.
There's actually a movie that's supposed to come out about it in

(11:20):
like the next couple of months. Oh, nice.
It's a Scorsese film to even better.
So I figured before any of us goand see this movie.
I'm going to feel everybody on what happened in dosage, Hills
in Oklahoma, because, boy, was it, a wild ride and I've let
everybody know listening. I've been hyping this up to
Brian. Now, for a little while, I was
like, oh, you don't even understand it's going to blow

(11:43):
your mind, I'm having a consistent.
But before we even start anything, let's learn a little
bit about the Osage Nation. So they are an indigenous tribe
in America who live in Oklahoma for a pretty long time.
But we have found remnants of the tribe as far east as the
Ohio River and the Mississippi River dating back to 700 BC.
Their name is a French version of their indigenous name which

(12:05):
is was that shush which means mid Waters and the Dougie
han-soo language. They migrated West after the
17th century and archaeologists have found evidence That there
were three different routes thatthey took.
During this immigration, period,one group, followed the
Missouri. Osage River to Western Central
Missouri and Eastern Oklahoma. Another groom took that same

(12:27):
river to West Central Missouri. Then another cluster of about
six different groups, followed the only Ottawa River and Iowa,
and they ended at the Osage River, this happened because the
Iroquois invaded, the Ohio Valley, where they had been
living. And there were a lot of battles.

(12:47):
And I have to explain this because my family is linked to
the Confederacy, it's referred to as the Iroquois Confederacy.
It's the initial name for the five tribes, the name that we
refer to is holding the shown a,those tribes are Mohawk, Oneida,

(13:07):
that's my family. Onondaga Cayuga and Seneca later
on. There was another trial, another
tribe that was added. But at this time, there's only
five So, when I say they were invading, this was five
different tribes, invading an area.
So I totally understand why the Osage people just said, I am a,

(13:31):
yeah, yeah. Like, you know, I'm a head out,
a SpongeBob style. This is too much.
I'm not you, and I didn't want this, okay?
Like they had a whole series of bloody battles through Kentucky,
Virginia. Like they were just like, you
know what, we got. Good.
So from the 1700s to the 1900s, they were taking over territory.

(13:51):
In the midwest, they were raiding their Santa Fe New
Mexico. They explored Palos Verdes
Peninsula on the coast of California, just before the
1800s, the largest group headed up towards Oklahoma and Kansas,
and there were hostilities between the Osage Nation and the
Cherokee Nation that in 1839, the US government stepped in and
forced all of the different dosage bands of the tribe to

(14:13):
leave Arkansas and Oklahoma. ah,and they move them into Kansas,
which is where the tribe had agreed to settle in 1825 but
like, you know, Part of that time period was we conquer him?
So, but the other issue was thatdidn't last?

(14:34):
Because even though they had been forced into can't into
Kansas, they got forced back into Oklahoma and 1871, this was
actually their third and most terrible displacement, it was
pretty traumatic for the tribe and there are tombstones across
the entire area that show that the majority of the people who
died during that third transition.

(14:55):
We're Young mothers and infants.Wow.
So it's pretty hard on the tribein general.
Now, solidly in Oklahoma, they settled in and then in 1894,
large, quantities of oil, were discovered underneath a large
Prairie that was owned by the tribe.
The Osage - they negotiated withthe US and retained the rights

(15:17):
for the minerals, under their land. this was called the Osage
allotment Act of 1906 and it said that any subsurface
minerals within the Osage Nationreservation were held in a trust
by the US government, but we're still tribally owned and they
were paid mineral lease royalties to the tribe and this
started out as like, Tribal members is called Head rights

(15:45):
actually but those people who were a lot he's in the tribe and
had that head rate would get like $100 every couple months
and then all of a sudden it was a thousand dollars every couple
months and then by the early like the late like nineteen
teens the tribe, I received millions of dollars at this
point so they were at that moment, the richest people in

(16:07):
the entire world. Oh nice.
Okay. Well, some awesome.
Unfortunately, this isn't the only time that the the Osage
tribe is going to have issues with this.
There's a lot of really jacked up stuff that happens with that.
The acts that were passed duringthat time period.
But also recently they sued the US government for mismanagement

(16:29):
of the trust Assets in the year 2000 and they settled for 380
million dollars in 2011. So it's been 100 Years of drama
with this. Yeah.
But we are specifically talking about the time period.
It before the reign of terror, so we're back in 1921.
The US government is in all thathappy about how the Osage Nation

(16:50):
is using their wealth. We are a, we're very racist,
National Nation. Now, with a very racist past and
there is nothing that makes broke white folks, more upset
and seeing brown people drive rolls royces and building big
old beautiful houses. In fact, the Press was obsessed
with stories of the rich Redskins and they took delight
and trying to cast the osich. Tribe as Savage spendthrift,

(17:14):
everybody wanted to know how these people were spending their
money. So Congress, passes a law,
requiring, any member of the Osage Nation, who is at least
half to be appointed a guardian until they can prove that they
are competent enough to spend their own money.
Excuse me. Hmm.

(17:36):
Now they, they, they set this uporiginally going well, a lot of
these people who are getting this money, are minors their
children. Who are, you know, full-blood?
This is just one of the ways that the u.s. government has
screwed indigenous people over using blood Quantum, but that's
another conversation for anotherday.
And the thing is, even if these miners had Parents, it didn't

(17:58):
matter. The government was like, no, no.
Everybody needs to have someone to help them with their money.
No, it down to thank you. And this wasn't handled by the
feds, but by local lawyers and businessmen and it was
completely taken advantage of, in fact, So guys, tell you
there's so much money here. The Osage Nation began
auctioning off development rights to parts of their

(18:20):
reservation for people who were hunting for oil.
And according to the commissioner of Indian Affairs
in 1924 alone, their revenue was30 million dollars in 1920.
That's about 400 million dollarsnow.
So, a family of four who were all a lot, he's who had had
right? Could be collecting, roughly

(18:41):
600,000. U.s. dollars today just to
exist. Wow, there's a lot of money and
that guardianship was very corrupt.
So this all really starts, the reign of terror May 27th, 1921

(19:01):
local Hunters, find a badly, decomposed body of 33, year old
and a brown in a Ravine and Osage County.
Anna was known to go on sprees as her family called them where
she got dancing and drinking with her friends until dawn.
Also reminding you, we are stillin the prohibition era.
Mmm. So there's a lot of bootleggers
and a lot of crime happening. She gone out on one of those

(19:24):
fries on May 21st and her sisterMolly Burkhart hadn't heard from
her by May 24th and she was pretty alarmed there.
They had a previous sister who had died in 1918 and Molly
wasn't entirely sure. That one made sense, either
Molly and her sisters and their parents were all on something

(19:44):
referred to as the Osage role, which meant that they were
registered tribal members and that they were all allottees who
had head rate. This family all lived in his
area called gray horse, which was one of the reservations
older settlements. Also all the sisters were
married to white man. That's going to matter later on.

(20:05):
Now the last time the Anna had been seen was a luncheon on the
21st that Molly had been the. What do you call that when you
have a party host? Yeah, she was hosting a luncheon
and I showed up drunk, she caused a scene with pretty much
everybody there. Molly had to stop her sober up
and Molly's husband's younger brother, Brian spelt with a.

(20:26):
Why said he dropped her off at her house?
Bryan, insisted that he had dropped her off at like 5:00. 30
in the afternoon before going tosee a show that was called
bringing up father with another man in town named William Hale,
who was his uncle and also one of the most powerful people in

(20:46):
Osage County but we will also talk about William a little
more. Now after three nights of not
hearing from her sister Molly slack.
All right y'all, let's get this going and she's like she sends
people to go check on Anna's house.
Nobody's been there and as servants or like she didn't come
home. That's also when they learned

(21:07):
that another Resident in on the tribe Charles Whitehorn had also
vanished a week before, Anna. So, a week after an has been
gone. Now, a different body is found
on a hill, north of downtown Pawhuska.
It had two bullets in its head, execution style, the body was so

(21:30):
rotten, they couldn't identify it.
And the only way, they figured out who it was was because the
oil workers who found him checked his pockets and
discovered a letter that someonehad written to Charles Whitehorn
Charles wife is white and Cheyenne Indian when within 24
hours, they also find Anna's body in the mud in a ravine

(21:54):
partially submerged bloated. We didn't really do autopsies,
then like we do now. Instead what they had was called
a Coroner's inquest a group of people show up led by a justice
of the peace and they have kind of a conversation over the body
at the location where they find it.
So they do this with Hannah Brown.
The reason why we had it like this is because after the

(22:15):
American Revolution Americans were kind of not interested in
cops citizens were afraid that they would become a symbol of
Oppression America, how funny. Whoa.
It's like history like repeats itself or something.
Yeah. So these inquest were regular
people from the town who were doing, they were filling the Gap

(22:38):
that cops would do today. And to be fair, When these
regular people found that an injustice had been done, it
usually got real violent so likethey would take their job, very
seriously. Okay.
Cool. And Anna's inquest, they
realized they like put her body on like a slab and they were

(22:59):
just checking and stuff and theywere like, oh yeah, no.
She got shot in the back of the head.
This definitely a murder. Because originally when they
first found her body, there was like well when she just got
drunk and like fell over in the woods and like exposure, But
there was definitely a bullet hole.
So the information about both these murders.
Now falls on the local sheriff and Osage County.

(23:22):
He's a 50 year old, former Frontiersman named harf Reyes
who took his job, pretty seriously.
But he also liked to get a little money on the side from
his favorite criminals. Pretty much.
If you were like a moonshine Bootlegger, you knew that all
you had to do was pay Harvard a little booze and he'd let you
out. One harv learned about Anna.
He was already knee-deep in investigating Charles white

(23:43):
horns, murder. So, he was like, I need somebody
else to focus on this, so he passed it off to the town
Marshal, the Marshall shows up, and it's just like, okay.
She was drinking at some point. Somebody definitely shot her in
the back of the head. He did note that there were two
sets of car tracks at the crime scene that were not from the
people who had showed up, but wedidn't know how to trace.

(24:06):
The killer from just try to tracks and At best, like the
best area where there was forensics, were like the major
cities, your Philadelphia, your DC, Houston La New York middle.
Oklahoma didn't have really any forensic knowledge at that
point, they didn't even photograph the crime scene back.

(24:27):
Oh, come on. Yeah.
And even if they had, it was already incredibly contaminated
by roughly a dozen people. So, I traipse through this true,
this caused a bit of a media frenzy, they recovered a bullet,
from Charles white horns body. And it was roughly the same size
as the whole and Anna's. Had they thought it was a 33.

(24:51):
The theories are rampant. They're like two Indians dying
in the same week. They're both wealthy ocid
residence. And so people are like, well is
this like HH Holmes in Chicago? Or is this just a coincidence?
Because that was the only like International serial type murder

(25:12):
that we had any reference for atthe time, right?
Which was HH Holmes at the end of the 19th century.
Some of the elders actually saidthat, they felt like finding
that oil under the reservation was a curse on the Osage people
and there was one quote from a newspaper that said after the

(25:32):
fat checks from the great white father and I know My people will
be happier. Hmm.
Yes, they did refer to kind of how we say, like, Daddy Biden
and we're being kind of facetious.
That's kind of how they talked about checks from the government
that chicks At that point. Local police were just kind of

(25:56):
ready to be done with Anna's case, but Molly didn't wasn't
having that. She reached out to William hail
rich, man. Lot of land.
That he purchased a lot of it from the Osage people.
He had worked his way up from just being a poor cow boy to a
man who now walked around town in a bow tie and recited poetry
like, he thought he was that guy.
He was this yet. Okay.

(26:16):
He even had a diamond-studded pain from the Masonic Lodge so
you know, yeah. Those kind of connection, okay?
Hale was also a reservation, Deputy in Fairfax.
Now, that was mainly an honorarytitle, but a lot of the people
in the Osage Nation, trusted him.
And so, when he talked to Molly,he was just like, I got you, IMA

(26:36):
get Justice for your sister. There was a small hearing after
this and they went over all the details of the last day of
Anna's life. They interviewed everybody who
had anything to do with her servants, everybody, especially
brianburkhardt His responses were a little weird, but they

(26:58):
really couldn't prove anything from the fact that like, maybe,
this guy was just a little nervous on the stand.
Mmm. The other issue we came into
when this discussion at this hearing, was that, this area had
a big issue with Outlaws becauseof prohibition, and the Osa
chills were really nice place tohide if you were on the run
because it was big, beautiful Wilderness.

(27:20):
The other Theory though, was maybe it was somebody on the
reservation and that made sense because the only people who
would know, all of Anna's patterns, were people who knew
her Molly was suspicious of Anna's.
Urban Oda Brown and when he was questioned after Anna's death,
he sobbed and put on a total show and everybody was like,

(27:43):
yeah, he's lying. It also didn't help that.
After Anna's death Brown, got a lawyer and tried to get her
share of the Osage allotment, but before, after they had
gotten divorced, and I had changed her will so that all of
her money will go back to her mom.
Lizzie. Okay, cool.

(28:05):
Aw So Brown didn't have any legal right to get that money
and at this point, the only way you could get in a lot meant was
either through an inheritance ora will.
So or the natural way that moneyflowed if you like die.
So if a spouse dies, goes to thenext person.
Who knows the family members right?

(28:26):
A few weeks after Anna's Funeral, a man who was in jail
for forgery, sent a letter to sheriff harv and was like, I
know about the murder. So, both harv and hail rush to
meet this man, and he claims that Anna's ex-husband Oda.
Brown paid him, eight thousand dollars to murder her.
He told them, he shot her in thehead and carried her body to the

(28:47):
creek afterward which is why they hadn't been able to find
the bullet because they've been looking in the wrong place.
Hmm. OTA Brown was arrested, but
there was no evidence that the forger had even been in Osage
County, so, they just released Oda Brown.
And officially, and his murder was listed.
She was listed as Murdered by parties, unknown.

(29:10):
Two months after her daughter's.Death, Lissie died as well.
She had been ill for years, but it got like exponentially worse
after Anna died. Okay, in fact, Molly's
brother-in-law, Bill Smith was like this feels weird.

(29:30):
And so, he started digging into the idea that Lizzy had been
poisoned. This made sense because now
Lizzie would have had to allotment checks, she'd be
getting after Anna passed, right?
It was a lot of money, unfortunately, the local police
showed absolutely no interest inpursuing Lizzy as a case, an
elderly ill woman died of her illness and they were not going

(29:52):
to do an autopsy or an inquest over it.
Somali puts out a two thousand dollar reward for anybody who
can give her information about the murder of her sister Anna.
And the Whitehorn family goes bet you.
We will also put out two thousand five hundred dollars
for any reward on Charles body. So now, we're looking at almost
five grand for help on these twomurders that were discovered on

(30:13):
virtually the same day. Hm, it seems like it'd be a good
motivator, but then har Frey hasgot himself charged with failing
to enforce the law. Law because he'd been accepted
all those bribes from bootleggers and the Oklahoma
attorney general was aimin to put him in jail, so he was kind
of busy. He didn't have any time to look

(30:38):
into the crimes because he was too busy.
Trying not to go to jail himselftoo.
Busy the Oklahoma attorney general was like, Yeah, Sohail
decides, I'm going to hire a private detective.
Now in the early 20th century, detective agencies definitely
filled the void where corrupt orunderfunded or just downright

(30:59):
inept police weren't doing theirjob.
Just like now private detectivesare very unwieldy.
You never knew if you were getting somebody like Virgil
vandagriff who helped capture her bone Meister, or if you were
going to get a scammer who was going to take your money and
run. So it was all over the place.

(31:21):
So hail chooses the detector from Kansas City who went by the
name. Pike, first name only Anna
estate was like, screw it. We're going to hire detective to
and then the Guardians for both Anna and Lizzie.
The his name was Scott Mathis. He put together a team of
privatized and so did the white whore nasty.
So, at this point now the three of these people have organized

(31:42):
roughly, 50, different detectives who are all over
those. Its reservation.
Wow. Trying to find information and
the thing is these weren't your average attack devs.
These are all people who had previously worked for the Secret
Service. They were considered to be
better than Pinkerton detectives.

(32:03):
Really one of them was William JBurns who was referred to as
America's Sherlock Holmes and hehad a whole team of people under
him. The information about them, like
none of their names are listed in any of the information that
you look up and the FBI. Actually just let you go on to

(32:23):
their website and pull up all the data they have on us.
So it's a lot of reading and it's very interesting but like
so they were only know by code numbers and all of, if T of
these code number people, kind of descended on the town and
they began looking in. Every one, they were a lot of
dead ends. A lot of false leads, but they

(32:44):
did learn that Anna. Had been seen with two men from
the oil fields before her death.Now while the detectives were
out following every lead, a man,by the name of aw, Comstock
showed up and gray horse to helpas well.
William Burns had investigated him in the past for trying to
help an oil company trick, the Osage Tribal Council into a
badly and deal. Those charges couldn't be proven

(33:07):
but Burns decided Comstock mightbe a good Ally to have.
Hmm. Everybody was a sub-sect, but
none of them were good enough suspects.
They ended up finding out that Anna was pregnant and nobody
knew who the dad was. And so then, that caused a whole
series of rumors that Anna couldhave been sleeping with other
people's boyfriends or husbands.And that's why she was murdered.

(33:31):
It was all kinds of crazy. Well, okay, so February, 1922,
nine months after both Anna and Whitehorn our dad, They don't
know what to hails. Detective Pike, had abandoned
the case entirely, Sheriff Harvey couldn't lead, any
investigation? Because he had been officially
kicked out of office. They had no more leads to

(33:52):
follow. It was looking like, they didn't
have any idea who it killed Annaor Charles, and then in late
February, William steps in left his house.
And when he came home, a few hours later, he was visibly ill.
He died before Dawn, unlike Lizzie William was only 29 and
Considered to be in pretty good shape.

(34:14):
So his death was very suspiciousand when they decided to do an
inquest in him they determined that he was poisoned the poison
was assumed to be strychnine andeven though we had the forensic
ability to test for strychnine poisoning nobody did it.
Why they just decide all you do is take like a flash sample.

(34:37):
Yeah. Where I'm looking for is not
flash but you know what I mean? Yeah.
You see it was like just a little bit of Flesh that flesh
to go March 2016. 22, another Osage woman dies of poisoning,
no toxicology done on her remains either.
What's going on July 28th, 1922 Joe Bates, gets whiskey, from a

(35:04):
stranger. And after a sip of it later, he
begins frothing at the mouth andcollapses.
He's only in his mid-30s when heHe dies.
At this point. The Osage Nation is dropping
like flies and they all are people who coincidentally are
over that. 50% threshold, meaning, they get checks There

(35:31):
were so many cases by August that the Osage Nation reached
out to Barney McBride. Who was a wealthy Oil, Man.
And they were like, listen, you have connections to DC.
We need help. Please go get, help.
Someone is killing us, please. Right.
So McBride was married to an indigenous woman and she had

(35:52):
passed and he was trusted by theOsage people.
He was actually raising their daughter within like the tribe
trying to help her, you know, know her people.
Right? Right.
So he agreed to do it. When Barney gets to d.c.,
there's a telegram waiting for him in his rooming house.
From a friend of his that just says Be careful.

(36:17):
That night when McBride went outto play Billiards, somebody
kidnapped him. And in the morning they found
his body. He had been stabbed over 20
times been bludgeoned in the head, until his skull had
collapsed and stripped naked, except for his shoes.
And socks had, they not been fora business card, which had been
tucked in his shoe. They wouldn't have been able to

(36:39):
ID him, which lets me know that the people who did this wanted
him to be found. This was a warning The local
police in Washington were like he was probably followed from
Oklahoma. And they wanted to kill him
before he could talk to anybody official was.

(37:03):
I'm sorry, there was actually anarticle in the Washington Post
that was just like conspiracy. Like, you know, borrow, you
know, oil men murdered due to conspiracy to kill Rich, Indians
like, major news. And then it goes quiet, there's
no suspicious deaths, there's nothing.
Hmm, until February of 1923 Thistime, it started again, Henry

(37:29):
Rowan, 40 years old found in hiscar Frozen, but he definitely
didn't die from freezing, because there were two bullets
in the back of his head just like, with Charles Whitehorn,
there's making this stuff. Obvious, like, what we're gonna
just like with, Anna, the deputies and Marshall show up at

(37:49):
the Ravine. They look at the body.
They noticed there are trademarks and the frozen mud
from that moment on every OCT. As had electric lights put
outside of their houses, and thing is, this would have been
seen as like a really bougie thing to do.
Because everybody didn't have light like that in the nineteen

(38:10):
a time, like, everybody didn't have the ability to drown your
house and light like we do now, it was expensive but they got
the money to do that, right? Well, that's what they're like,
oh, these people, they have lights on all night long outside
their houses, but they had that so that if they heard something
outside their house, they could look and be like, yep.
Play it. Safe.

(38:30):
Molly and her family were still looking for a killer.
Bill Smith is like I know this is okay, I'm on to something
here, he's doing his own separate that's Molly's
brother-in-law. Married to her sister Rita and
he's just like I'm some is goingon here.
I'm a follow this lead. He's doing this all on his own

(38:51):
on a stick tape. Hmm.
And Bill realized he must have been onto something because they
started hearing people skulking around the house at night so
much so that he and Rita had trouble sleeping.
So they moved a month after Romans death this time.
That was the house closer to thecenter of Fairfax where they had

(39:12):
a lot of neighbors, whereas, before they were out more in the
countryside in March, a Man shows up at their door and as
like, I heard you So and farmland and bills.
Like you are mistaken, sir, and Bill told his friends at the
man, looked like he was casing the place.

(39:33):
Then all the neighbors. Dogs started, dying, one by one.
All poisoned, come on. Bill Tells A friend of his, I'm
pretty sure I'm gonna die soon. Hmm.
So on March 9th, Bill drives a friend to a Bootleggers Ranch on
the western side of the reservation.
This Bootlegger is Henry grammar, he owned a ranch, and
he was a well-known outlaw. With connections to the Kansas

(39:54):
mob. So bill, and his friend got to
the ranch grammar is not there. So they just grab a couple jars
of whiskey. Have a couple of swigs, they
drop, bill off back at home Rita's there.
And so is one of their cermets named Nettie, Brookshire, who,
sometimes would stay there overnight.
Like if she was working late andabout 3 a.m. everyone in town
heard a loud explosion that radiated through the

(40:17):
neighborhood, it bent trees, blew out windows people down the
street, At the Fairfax Motel were thrown out of their
ballads, like was there a bomb? Yes.
Molly and Earnest were over on the other side of the
reservation and Molly looked outthe window and went there's a
fire. She thought it was Thunder at

(40:38):
first but it was Bill Smith house and the entire house was
gone. This was such a massive
explosion that like it was just destroyed the town rushed out
and they're like, we got to lookfor any survivors, anybody
survive and they began moving rubble and after forever, they
started hearing Bill screaming. Mmm, Rita was beside him in bed.

(41:02):
They said it looked like she waspeacefully sleeping, but when
they moved her, they saw that she had been Hit by something in
the back of her head, she was killed immediately.
They couldn't even find Nettie. A Justice of the Peace.
Simply like looked at it and determined that she had been
blown to pieces that he was only19 years old.

(41:22):
She was married and had a small child.
There weren't enough remains forthem to even do an inquest.
And in fact, they sell, they found part of Nettie's, remains
roughly 300 feet away burned into the side of a house.
Wow, And all I could think of here was like damn poor Molly.
She is literally now the only person left alive in her family.

(41:44):
Yeah. Okay.
The carry Bill to an ambulance, they took him to a hospital on
the way to the hospital. He passed out originally when
they found him, he was awake andscreaming and when he found out
read, it was gone. He asked one of the people to
save him for their gun so he could kill himself to.
He was sad. Poor guy.
They realized as they were taking him to the hospital that

(42:07):
this had been planned. Specifically.
Because roughly every like justice of the peace, all those
people. Hmm.
We're out of town for a court case.
Oh, how convenient? They had to rush back in the
middle of the night. Cops set up flood.
Lights at all the access and actresses to the hospital.
They posted an armed guard outside of his hospital room.

(42:30):
Everybody was like if Bill was if this was because he said he
knew something. He's got to tell us something
now. Yeah.
Yeah. Because he has time to take him
for it, right. His friends say that like well
he rambled on and on about stuff.
Sometimes he like woke up and hewas like did I say something?
Yeah. And they were like no no he's

(42:51):
trying to stop himself or so worried that maybe he would say
something that would call it. Like it was weird and then four
days later he died. He never told anybody anything,
huh? At least at this point.
How did he die? It was just my explosion from
his injuries. Okay I was about to say, what do

(43:12):
I miss my games I was worried. Okay, question for you real
quick so I don't, I'm not sure how reservations are set up.
Uh-huh. Is there some type of security
they have? There is a lot of them are big.
Open areas. There are generally reservation,
police, and they did have like hail was one of their

(43:32):
reservation chair, right? Right.
Right. It's we're like right now we
come. We run into issues in the u.s.
when there's like a missing woman like the case that I
talked about on Tick Tock last week.
They don't know where she died or where this lady went missing.
So they're not Sure who's in charge.
Is it the reservation police? Is it the state?

(43:53):
That's why a lot of times when there are reservation like
people who go missing or die on reservations, it's handled by
the feds because well, we least know that they're the ones in
charge right. True.
But as far as this was, it was just it was a massive area
enemy. The thing is, they had people
coming and going nonstop becausethey had boil Barons coming in.
They were auctioning off land tomake money.

(44:13):
There were people, you know, digging, they just ran wheel.
There were loads of random people coming off and It's
reservation today we might not have that, right?
But at this point in history with the Osage Nation, they did
have too many people on there which is also contributed to the
confusion with whether this was an internal conflict or sore,

(44:36):
somebody criminals on the outside trying to kill people,
right? Okay.
It's just like, is okay, kids. I told you.
This is a tail. It's a tale, isn't it?
That is for me and I like You like it so, April 23rd.
Sorry, got April 23rd. But April of 1923 the Governor

(44:57):
of Oklahoma, Jacksy Walton sendshis top investigator Herman, Fox
Davis, 2006 County because people and O's the chills were
saying that the reason why they hadn't found the killers because
it must be somebody in the localpolice department, or either
someone in bed with the local police department.
Now Davis was also a former member of the burns detective

(45:17):
agency and the governor Like batlisten.
I hired the best man to protect me.
He's got that within a few days though Davis was hanging out at
the Bootleggers houses and in the gambling Den said he was no
help. In fact by June, he ended up
pleading guilty to bribery and got a two-year sentence.

(45:39):
Oh my God, the governor pardonedhim.
Then when he got released, he killed it attorney and got life.
What present do, yeah. That One didn't work out and
following that Governor Walton got impeached in November of
1923 seems he had pardoned a lotof people including some of the
oilmen. He was a getting that money to

(46:03):
build a nicer house from sorry. Of course, of course, one day in
June of 1923 though, George big heart called up his friend, an
attorney WW1, he was sick, and he was being taken to Oklahoma
City Hospital, George big heart.Said that he had information
about the murders, and he was only going to speak to Vaughn in

(46:24):
person. So, before Vaughn went to go to
that meeting. See his friend, he goes and he
says, his wife. Listen, I've been collecting
evidence about this on my own. I have hit it at this location.
When van gets their big card is still alive.
He shares the information with his friend.
Apparently, it's very incriminating.

(46:46):
Then Vaughn sits with his friend.
As big heart dies Vaughn calls, the new Osage County, sheriff,
and he's like, listen, I'm coming back tomorrow.
I know everything about everything.
You don't even got to worry about it.
The sheriff's just like, well, do you know who killed Baker and
he's like, not only do I know who killed my friend.

(47:06):
I know more. Oh man.
Let's go. Go.
He was last seen boarding the overnight train and when the
train pulled into the station, he wasn't on the train anymore.
What know what They found his body about 36 hours later.
It was about 30 miles north of Oklahoma City on off the train

(47:27):
tracks, he had been thrown off the train, his neck was broken.
He had also been stripped naked,just like McBride so everything
he had written down in that meeting and then when Vaughn's
Widow went to that special hiding spot it was cleaned out
to what the fuck. Okay, look, I know this isn't

(47:48):
passed but guys, you gotta be quiet.
Keep walking at this point, the reign of terror had claimed 24
people from just the Osage Nation, but it was also killing
a bunch of people outside of an Asian to the Rancher who was
trying to help the investigation, they found his

(48:09):
body at the bottom of a flight of steps, and they were able to
determine that he was drugged. Another guy was in a different
city, he was an Oklahoma City and he got shot.
In broad daylight on his way to go talk to State officials about
the case, my God. So now it's not just people with
a head, right? It's anybody who's trying to get

(48:30):
help for the tribe. Yeah.
The justice of the peace was receiving Anonymous threats.
Like at this point, he was just like, I don't even want to do
inquests on the new bodies that are being found, the new County.
Sheriff was just like, listen, you know, we don't gotta worry
about this. It's just some Indians dying.

(48:52):
What are you talking about? He was scared.
And after the bombing of the Smith house, the Osage tribe
began asking the federal government to send
investigators. But specifically investigators
who had no ties to Oklahoma at all because there was obviously
a leak here, the tribal council actually sent a formal

(49:14):
resolution to DC and I'm going to read you part of it, which
says, whereas and no case have the criminals been apprehended
and brought to Justice. Whereas the Osage Tribal Council
deemed essential for the preservation of the lives and
property. Of the members of the tribe that
prompt and strenuous action. Be taken to capture and punish
the criminals. Be it further resolved.
That The Honorable Secretary of the Interior be requested to

(49:36):
obtain the services of the Department of Justice in
capturing and Prosecuting the murderers of the members of the
Osage tribe. Letters were also sent to the
Kansas to Kansas Senator CharlesCurtis who was part call and
part dosage. And at the time, the highest
elected official with an e and e, An ancestry like he was the

(49:58):
highest you have been ever elected.
While the tribe is waiting for afederal response, Molly is just
living in fear. She's like, I'm definitely the
next Target she heard people breaking into their car one
night and Earnest was just like,just lay still, I don't do
anything, let them take the car,who cares?
It's just a car. When her brother-in-law and

(50:23):
sister had been killed, hail wasin Texas.
Hail shows up at Molly's house. In is like listen I'm gonna get
you your Vengeance. I promise part of Hale's pasture
is set on fire acres of land damaged.
Hundreds of cattle dead. Molly just decided she wasn't
going to leave the house anymore.

(50:44):
She didn't let anybody visit. She stopped going to church.
Molly's Faith was gone at this point, Her Health deteriorated.
She ended up actually giving herthird child with Ernest to other
family members to raise because she was like, well, if I'm going
to die, maybe one of us can live, so sad.

(51:09):
That was a her little two year old Anna at the time.
Mmm, also she named the baby after this.
Yeah, anyway, we don't hear a whole lot about Molly after
this, the local Physicians, the shown Brothers began showing up
and giving her injections for her health.
That they told her was insulin would should have helped since

(51:30):
her her health issue was diabetes raw.
But it wasn't, it was not helping at all.
And in fact, in 1925, Molly senta secret message to a priest
saying that she was in danger, and she was being poisoned.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were now at the same time,

(51:51):
Tom white is a special agent at the Bureau of Investigation as
it was called. He was working in Houston and he
received an urgent order from DC.
His new boss, J Edgar Hoover waslike, I need to talk to you and
I need to talk to you in person.Whitehead joined the bureau in
1917 after he had been barred from joining World War one due

(52:12):
to a recent surgery, he still wanted to serve his country but
there was also another issue. Tom white was not like a regular
Lawman he was a cowboy hmm. He had been raised in the
wilderness but he was noticing that the need for Cowboys was
slowly shrinking in the u.s. we were moving away from the wild

(52:32):
west era and so he was like maybe if I if I Don't get what
the new times. I'm going to be left behind you.
Yeah, unfortunately, now President Theodore Roosevelt had
created The Bureau as a way to fill the void in law enforcement
in 1908, it was so new that theyonly had a couple hundred agents
in a few field offices Across America.

(52:53):
They hadn't really figured out exactly what they were doing
yet. Sometimes they worked on bank
fraud or antitrust cases, other times.
It was shipments of stolen, carsfilms, smut all sorts of random
stuff being stolen Across America.
Other times, they hunted. Escaped prisoner and sometimes
they were called in to deal withcrimes on Indian reservations.
Kind of like now because they'rethe only ones with jurisdiction

(53:15):
because their federal agent Theydidn't really have any power to
arrest, anybody back then, but they were very good at figuring
things out. This was like, this was so new
that ages didn't even carry weapons.
As a part of being an agent Back, Then They Carried weapons
because they knew that they wereabout to be about that business,

(53:36):
right? But it wasn't like you have a
special issued weapon, right? Okay.
So Tom white arrives at the bureau.
He here, learns about the case in Osage County, and it had been
two years since since the nationhad sent, That letter and they
had sent other agents to check it out.

(54:00):
And all the other agents that said the same thing.
There's nothing we can do here. The tribe.
It actually sold part of their land to help fund the
investigation, which is unheard of and messed up.
They ended up selling about 20 thousand dollars worth of lamb

(54:20):
which is about three hundred thousand dollars.
Now to be told that there was nothing that could be done.
Wow. They were just going to drop it
back into the locals hands and Hoover was like we need to do
this and we need to do it differently.
So he convinced the Governor of Oklahoma to release this guy who

(54:41):
was known as Blackie Thompson and that's a super racist name
because Blackie was literally just like a native man who was
like a quarter Indian. He couldn't have been that dark
for y'all to name him Blackie. I'm just saying I looked at
pictures of him and he was probably a hair darker than I
am. Oh wow.
Well You know, they used to callI know, but you just go mad

(55:02):
about it. So when I talk about him, I just
end up writing about him as Thompson, do nothing.
Thank you. Like what?
I was when I heard his name, I was like oh, he was probably a
dark-skinned man. Know they was just racist.
Yeah. Okay.

(55:25):
Thompson was going to gather evidence working for the bureau.
Because they were like listen, No One's Gonna question this
convicted bank robber for navigating Osage County.
This is where a lot of bank, robbers hide out in the Hills.
Unfortunately, the agents had been said to keep an eye on him,
lost track of him and it was a chills and he robbed another
bank and killed a police officer, and it took them a long
time to find them again. So that's kind of why there was

(55:49):
that two-year Gap because literally everybody was Trying
to deal with the Scandal that they had messed up.
In fact, like I said, Hoover hadjust gotten his job.
So he was like, crap, we can't do this before.
There was also a whole nother, like Federal Scandal that
happened during that time period.
So they were really worried about losing Federal funding and

(56:11):
proving that the Bureau of Investigation was vital to the
Department of Justice. So Hoover brings in Tom.
Wait, a cowboy see, there were still.
There were a couple of cowboys who worked for the feds at this
point but all the new guys who were coming in were what Tom
Wright referred to as the college boys.

(56:33):
Oh these are people who are going to college and then
joining the bureau which is how it works.
Now, usually But Tom Wayne understood the assignment.
He's like you're not bringing inthe military, former military,
any former cops, you're calling in somebody who's a friend.
Here is a man who has experiencedealing with the wild west and

(56:56):
osich Hills is the wild west. So they sat white to the
Oklahoma field office and the field office, there was in
desperate. Need of somebody who knew what
they were doing, because they were inundated with crime.
Just constant crime. The bootleggers.
Is the gambling dens. Like, they were just like,
there's so much crime, we can't keep up with it.
Help us please. This was both an opportunity and

(57:19):
if he messed up, this was going to be a death sentence to his
career, other agents who have been sent to Osa chills and who
had not done anything. Had either been sent to distant
far away, field offices, or outright fired.
White was also aware that every single person who had gotten
close to the truth here had beenmurdered, so he knew that he was

(57:41):
going to have to operate differently, right?
He spent the first part of the summer of 1925 cinch simply
catching up on four years of murders and Mayhem in Osage
County. He felt that there were had to
have been clues in the original files that would like lead him
to some answers. And he was surprised to learn
that despite Molly Burkhart being the only surviving member

(58:02):
of her family. Nobody had decided to interview
her. So weird.
Yeah, people dropping the ball laughter, right?
He noted that Osage murders weredefinitely not that of a serial
killer. We didn't call it a serial
killer at the time, but he was just like it's not following any
pattern. We had people shot stabbed
poisoned, drugged bombs. It was random forms of murder

(58:26):
but he noted in his writings that these were very planned out
execution. Yes, they every single detail.
Nothing left to chance. White knew he couldn't trust
anything from the local Lawman or the private detectives.
Honestly, the giant file of stuff at the detectives wrote

(58:47):
was just a lot of personal opinion just a bullshit
basically like they were following stuff but like it was
just they wrote down everything.There was no discernment.
Oh okay, I got you like she talked about this in the sky was
blue. That day.
Yeah details I was just like this is so much.
No wonder people were overwhelmed by it before.

(59:09):
It wasn't an issue like we're sometimes.
There were no leads, there were too many leads and they hadn't
followed them down and figure them out.
Right? So he assumed he was like I need
a team and he knew they were going to have a rough time
because Witnesses at this point were terrified that they were
going to be murdered. Why decided that he was going to

(59:30):
be the face of the investigationalong with two other regular
members of The Bureau and everybody else who was involved
will go undercover. He decided the only other people
he was going to bring onto the team, we're Cowboys.
So he brought in a 56 year. Old Sheriff from New Mexico with
a talent for Assuming New identities.

(59:51):
Also, a former Texas Ranger who was very well, versed in danger,
He brought in a deep-cover agentwho looked like an insurance
salesman because he had been an insurance salesman, huh?
He kept one of the previous agents who had gone into Osage
County before John Berger, John knew the case and had a list of

(01:00:13):
criminal informants in Oklahoma.And he also brought in Frank
Smith, Smith was also older and he was also a cowboy.
The three of them were going to be like the front people who
were doing the visible. Esta, gatien that everybody in
town can see, right? Then they also their last member
was a man by the name of John Ren.

(01:00:36):
John ran is a former spy for revolutionary leaders in Mexico
and he was also India. Mm-hmm.
Cool. Smart Ute, which is a tribe that
lived in what is now Colorado and Utah.
Ryan was it, incredible investigator but he had been
fired because he hated to do paperwork.

(01:00:57):
I feel that Hoover had actually only reinstated him, roughly a
few months beforehand and was just like, you got to do what
you're supposed to do. Man, I dunno supposed to, but
paperwork is just like, it's above my pay grade, you know I'm
saying, give me a raise, maybe white needed ran because in
reading the old investigation papers, There was a lot of

(01:01:20):
casual racism in the report and then also a little bit of
jealousy just because little that casual Reese's one of the
bits. I read said that the OCH people
were lazy pathetic, and the onlyway to get make them talk was to
cut off their allowance. Wow, that's the person.
Who's your tribe is. Paying you to be here and fix

(01:01:40):
this? Yeah.
Wow, fuck you. And here's the thing because the
Osage tribe members could tell that these investigators didn't
like them. Why would you feel Pell to go
out on a limb to talk to these people.
When anybody who talks the law enforcement is literally getting
murdered like the next Market day.
But you imagine you have paid three hundred thousand dollars

(01:02:01):
for these people do an investigation about and they're
calling you lazy and entitled. I like okay you can go right?
Give me my money back. White tells Hoover these are who
I want and everybody said was that a coded message that said
proceed under cover immediately reporting to agent in charge.

(01:02:21):
Tom white the group, all slippedinto town separately and under
the radar with assumed identities.
Two of them showed up at will actually want.
He was one of like a quiet elderly Cattleman from Texas who
was going to become friends withWilliam hail The man who looks
like an insurance agent. Open up an insurance business
in. Downtown Fairfax.

(01:02:43):
And he'd go door-to-door specifically, two suspects house
has to go. Meet them agent Reynolds arrived
as a medicine, man searching forhis long-lost Osage relative.
Yeah, Ryan attended tribal, Gatherings made friends with
locals who told him things that they definitely were never going
to tell white man. When white arrived with the

(01:03:04):
other two, this was also the beginning of the FBI wearing the
black soot Black, Tie, shiny shoes.
So that's how so white Smith andburger show up to town.
So they they come with this appearance.
So everybody knows where you guys investigating.

(01:03:26):
Yeah, the four other guys show up working in the oil fields and
I just looked in the regular Ranch in and I just like Other
guys, they re set up their shopsthere before these guys even
came there and they got they gottheir information already.
Okay, cool. I mean this was done very well.
Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. Okay.
I like it. So, the first thing that White

(01:03:50):
and the other two agents, we're like go there.
Like where do we start? Well, first thing is they go
check the justice of the peace. Anna's inquest records are gone,
stolen. None of Anna's evidence had been
saved. Saved.
Literally, the only thing that was left was that the Undertaker
had kept her skull because they had exhumed her body at one

(01:04:10):
point. And the showing Brothers, the
two medical doctors in town had like, literally chopped up her
brain to try and find a tiny bullet in it.
So the Undertaker was like, I'm just gonna keep this skull here.
Yeah, they entered the rest of her.

(01:04:30):
This was useful though because he was able to See what had
happened. And he came to the same.
Conclusion as the initial inquest her, there was no exit
wound. That bullet should have been in
there, so we do something. Find the hammer, found the
bullet from Anna. So they stopped at the bring for
no reason less. What they went back and looked
at it again, but he was just like, no this what you like, he

(01:04:55):
spoke to the Justice. He was like what you said
originally was right there. Should have been a bullet in her
brain, mmm. And that meant that one of the
first people who were there at that inquest.
Probably took it. In fact, they went and they
spoke to the show and brothers and they were like, we do know.

(01:05:15):
We don't like you. Yeah.
It's very obvious that they're involved at this point.
Yeah, there was so much hearsay and that original those 50
privatized. That wiped is just like, you
know what? I'm gonna interview everybody on
my own your guys are going to help me.
We're going to check out all their Alibis one by one agent
Burger helped him with this together.

(01:05:36):
They ruled out. Most all of the people that the
Eyes left as Witnesses, including Anna's ex-husband,
when they looked into the situation was that, oh, Des
Browne was with a woman in another city.
And that was accurate. They were divorced.
He was allowed to be out there. Slut right.

(01:05:56):
Right. Right, right.
Yeah. Do you think he was out there?
You know, meet ladies, if livingis best?
Like, they looked into the rumorthat and I had been killed by
the girlfriend of someone. She was having an affair with
what they realized through doingthat investigation was that the
private eyes had written down everything that everybody told
them and white determined. Oh some of this is just straight

(01:06:21):
lies. This is manufactured to
specifically throw people off. Hmm.
J. Edgar Hoover also helped a
little bit from DC. He actually demanded daily
reports. So they descent daily coated
telegrams to him to DC, but he was just like, there's a white
woman you have listed here. Her name is Nisha, Kenny and

(01:06:42):
she's married to an Osage, man. And I think she's part of this
conspiracy Kenny had a history of mental illness issues and she
believes she was possessed and had tried to kill a local
attorney, but Hoover had interviewed her twice and even
had a government expert on Mental Health.
Evaluate her. They realize they were like,
she's a bit paranoid, but she's very perceptive.

(01:07:03):
So while she'll make a terrible witness, she will be able to
help us with the leads, hmm? Okay, Hoover also pointed out
that aw Comstock that Guardian. Was not the worst person, he had
an issue like they had real beefbecause Comstock had criticized

(01:07:25):
him to the bureau and threatenedto turn Senator Curtis against
Hoover. So initially Hoover was not on
board with Comstock being a partof this, right, right.
White was just like he was showing up giving us a little
bit of information then hiding again because Comstock realized

(01:07:45):
that this was real. Real deal.
People are still Dying by the end of July.
White begins looking into brianburkhardt Molly's
brother-in-law. The last person who'd seen
alive. Anybody need a refresher.
He swore that he took Ana home between 4:30 and 5:00 p.m. and
then gone into Fairfax to see a show with William Hale and his

(01:08:07):
brother Ernest and two, other family members, and aunt, and
uncle. This seemed like a solid Alibi.
So agent Burger traveled to Brian's family's house in
Northern Texas, which is Campbell, Texas, and lo and
behold, William Hale had also grown up near Campbell Texas to
oh wow, honey. When they got when Burger got to

(01:08:30):
Campbells family's house, sorry to the house.
And in Campbell Ryan's Uncle wasn't there but his aunt was
there and she launched into an entire tirade about how Earnest
had married. One of those red Millionaires
and she didn't like it, she was in the middle of this crazy
conversation with agent burger and Brian's.

(01:08:54):
Uncle comes in. And is like Brian was with us.
Y'all need to leave. Uh-huh.
Excuse me sir. But how the hell you know, how
do you know what I'm here for? Yep, he was just like, listen
stop. He was like Brian was with us.
You'll need to look into this. He has an alibi.
Y'all need to get out of my house.

(01:09:15):
Hmm, I don't trust, his Alibi isnot very trustworthy.
I don't think so either. So it's August of 1925, white
undercover agents. Go into the town of Ralston.
There was an old lead that Anna had been spotted by a group of
white. Men who have been sitting
outside of a hotel in Ralston onMain Street, previous detectives
had spoken to the group of men and they were like, we have no

(01:09:37):
idea what you're talking about. they track down an old man, who
was originally kind of worried at them first, but once he
realized that they were legit, he was like, oh yeah bat he was
like I was there and I definitely did talk to Anna.
In fact, I know I talked to her because I was like, hey, Annie

(01:09:59):
And he said that she wasn't slumped over drunk and she was
in the car with brianburkhardt and Bryant was driving.
He was definitely not in Fairfaxbecause he was in Ralston at
like midnight. Hmm interesting.
There were other Witnesses who confirmed that Brian was driving
the car too and this was the first kind of crack and

(01:10:20):
brianburkhardt sli's there was no way he was both in Fairfax
and Ralston at the same time. No you're not a time traveler
sir. So It follows this lead and he
follows agent Burgers. Network of informants and be
they kind of create a timeline. So Brian and Anna had stopped at
a speakeasy in Ralston and stayed there until 10 p.m. then

(01:10:40):
they headed to another underground bar.
A couple miles north of Fairfax Brian's Uncle from Campbell was
spotted with them that night buthe left before they left that
bar at 1 a.m. then they kind of disappear for about two hours
and other People who he interviewed him.
Ralston said that they saw BrianAnna and a third man.

(01:11:04):
They didn't know at about 3 a.m.In fact, someone who knew Brian
said that she heard him get out of a car.
They were a like in Fairfax and he was yelling at Anna to get
back in the car. That's the last time.
They anybody in Ralston or Fairfax are hurt Anna, huh?

(01:11:29):
And actually he found out from these witnesses that after they
initially had, told that stuff to the private eyes.
Someone had come around and paideverybody off.
Interesting. So at the end of the summer now,
White's like there's definitely a mole in this investigation.
One of his agents have been questioning a local like crappy

(01:11:52):
attorney and the attorney knew alot about the case, the attorney
was like, oh, I've seen part of the Bureau reports and I can see
more of them if I want to. This wasn't really anything new
in the bureau's past breach has happened a lot, but the problem
is this kind of a breach had wasgoing to get a lot of people
killed. Yeah.
Like Literally as soon as someone says they have

(01:12:12):
information, about this case, they go dying in the next day.
On top of that, two of the previous Burns detectives, try
to expose one of burgers, informants, Kelsey Morrison and
they lied and told local PD thatKelsey Morrison had committed a

(01:12:35):
robbery and he hadn't. So, Kelsey gets pulled into
local PD. Ancient Burger reports that the
local law men are trying to messup their investigation.
After Morrison is released, he super freaked out and is like
can you get these guys before they kill me?
No agent Burgers. Like, you need to lay low, watch

(01:12:56):
out for traps. Like if this was so like, when I
say that the, the identities of those four men who were
undercover were so important, white never met with them
anywhere near Fairfax, and it was never during the day, they
met in the middle of the countryside at night to exchange

(01:13:17):
information. They all were told to always
carry their weapons. Make sure you aren't being
followed. In case your cover gets blown,
you need to be able to defend yourself, right?
Right. So that white looks into the
private eye who hail hired in 1921 our boy.
Pike, the one who you know said that he just quit and left town.
Yeah, right. Well, Why it's walking around

(01:13:40):
town one. They're all like kind of just
doing the regular thing. Agent Burger is just a random
guy walks up to him and it's just like Pike and I work
together. Pike has something he wants to
tell you, but he's not going to tell you about it.
Unless you pay him very well. Pike.
He says Pike knows the identity of the third man who was with

(01:14:05):
Anna at 3:00 before she died. Of course, Asian Burgers.
Like I do want to let you know, you are attempting to extort the
federal government right now. Yeah.
You should just have him come tous and talk to us.
We could protect him and the guys like yeah, no.

(01:14:27):
So they launched their own investigation to find Pike and
they do of course he did becausehe gets arrested commit and
highway robbery and Tulsa Oklahoma, dude.
Come on. So when to attempt to get like a
lesser, Sentence. Hike tells them that there was a
local Gambler who had been with the three of them, but the

(01:14:50):
Gambler had gone home before thethird man arrived.
So this was a useless lead from Pike.
Go to jail, don't collect $200. Yeah, but he was so pretty much
Pike. Gave them another person they
hung out with but not the one they wanted.
Then why did he say that? He had information?
You just want the money, these won the money.
He was just trying to Extort them dumbass.

(01:15:13):
Okay now they did learn something from Pike though.
The three of them. Put a lot of pressure on Pike
and he went I wasn't hired to find, Anna's killer.
I was hired to conceal. Where Brian was that night?
I was hired to falsify evidence.I was hired to create for fake
Witnesses and to manufacture an alibi for brianburkhardt.

(01:15:36):
Ha ha ha ha. And he said This all came from
William hail. Fuck you.
Okay. Now he'll head and said,
directly that Brian was the killer just that he needed.
Brian to be clean. Mmm.
That's his nephew. He's looking out for his family.
It was a big deal though becauseliterally everybody in this

(01:15:58):
town, trusted. William hail.
And now, Tom white has evidence that William Hale is big bad
guy. So yeah he'll had well Not only
that he'd been lying to Molly for four years.
So, they asked him. Is Hale involved?

(01:16:20):
Or is he just covering for his family?
Pike isn't sure, but he's just like Sometimes when I would meet
with hail Brian was there and sowas Ernest, Molly's husband?
Ernest Burkhart was in on this from the jump.

(01:16:41):
So he must have been a third person that was there.
Then we'll see at this point. It's very obvious to the
investigators that the Burkhart family is part of this
conspiracy and he's like. Did Bill Smith figured this out?
Is that why he got blown up? Because that was his
brother-in-law, you know, they were related through marriage,
right? Smith hadn't, covered that lizzi

(01:17:01):
had been poisoned and he was following the trail related to
the Head Right money. Remember, I told you that bill
would wake up and start panicking that like he said
something. Yeah.
Shortly before build died, Jamesand David shown.
Thus doctors called bills attorney and had him come to the

(01:17:25):
hospital. Why way specifically met with
Bill and made? Sure.
There were no nurses around. Tom white is very suspicious of
the shown Brothers. At this point, you should be, he
was already suspicious because of that missing bullet.
And he questioned, everybody who'd been in the room.

(01:17:47):
The doctor said they called those lawyer hoping that he
would tell them who was attacked.
But Tom was like why don't you call Justice of the Peace or
somebody who could have arrestedsomebody?
Yeah, they like it didn't matter.
Bill didn't say anything. He didn't name his Killers but
what he did tell us attorney wasthat he only had two enemies in
this world. William K hail the king of Osa

(01:18:10):
chills and his nephew Ernest. Becker.
Okay. Now, Tom, wait, Tom and his
agents determined that the shownBrothers had orchestrated that
kneeling for their own purposes.The lawyer had been called in to
bring paperwork and that paperwork.
They got built a sign when he was just Lucid enough.

(01:18:33):
Allowing his brother to be appointed to his wife's estate.
So Rita Rita's had right money. They had Bill sign it away. but
the problem was Well, okay, so this is obviously the first
direct connection to these murders being super tied to the

(01:18:54):
Head, Right? Mm-hmm.
White, look more into it and it was just corruption on top of
corruption. Some of the Guardians had been
appointed to the Osage tribe were decent, but most of them
were just straight up robbing people of their money.
Like, he would find out that like a person be like, hey, I
want to use my money to buy a car and the guardian be like,
bet I'll go get you a car and hebuy the car for about $250 and

(01:19:14):
then sell it to his client for 1012 $250.
Wow. Eating the thousand dollars
himself Guardians were getting kickbacks from the banks that
held the money stores that they,that the people shopped at,
sometimes they would just outright buy land in the name of
their clients but it was for them.

(01:19:35):
Hmm. Even worse the US government was
looking at these purchases and going, the Osage people are
really spending frivolously and the O's is people are begging
for like to use their money. To like bite to build schools,
right? They want to do good for a
community, a government study actually was launched after this

(01:19:56):
whole thing happen and it showedthat those Guardians stole eight
million dollars from the Osage people, just in the early 1920s.
What the fuck? And all those Guardians were the
most prominent men in town, local judges lawyers
prosecutors. There was one judge who
legitimately was telling people,if you vote for me, I'll make

(01:20:19):
sure you get on this Guardian action, that's sickening.
Some of the Guardians would clean out the account and then
tell their client, you don't have any more money.
And just leave the person to just live in poverty.
There was one instance where a guardian let a child die instead

(01:20:39):
of giving them money from the account, what the fuck.
And the thing is, it wasn't thatthe Osage people weren't aware
of what was happening. It was just that they were like,
this is just another way that the u.s. government is screwing
us over. It like that again they couldn't
do anything about this either because they were appointed,
Guardian government Guardians. Yeah.
Goes was like this. This is Christ startling for

(01:21:01):
white because He had read a lot of the same newspaper stories
and other Americans read was that the Osage people all had 11
cars and they all lived in fancymoney and they were all stupid.
Wealthy. Yeah.
Beloved car is not all my name. Well, they all right.
Yeah, they're all my name but guess what?
I don't drive any and his cousinand uncle.
Yeah. Everybody else has a car.

(01:21:21):
I don't have a car. Exactly.
God. So what we learned was that
people felt helpless and that they had nobody on their side
which was why they fell. Ain't no real desire to talk to
anybody who came to help him about this.
So, in September of 1925, the undercover insurance agent stops

(01:21:43):
at a gas station in Fairfax and starts talking to a woman who
worked there. He's like, hey, I've been here
for a couple months and I think I want to buy a house and the
lady is just like, oh yeah. Well you got to talk to Bill
hail. He owns everything here.
She said that she had brought her home from Hale and she lived
pretty close to him. And that one night, thousands of
Acres of Bill's land had been set on fire and it was meant to

(01:22:06):
seem like it was for other reasons but she knew the real
reason and the real reason was that bill hail wanted insurance
money. And in fact he had collected 30
thousand dollars from that stretch of land being burned.
White's going to look in the helm or remember Henry Rowan.

(01:22:27):
Yeah. Who'd been shot in the head
twice and found in his car. He's Frozen.
Yep. Well Bill.
Hail made this big to-do about how he and Henry Rowan were best
friends and that Rowan had been kind of cheated by his guardian
and didn't have any money. And so, Bill Hale had given him

(01:22:49):
over twelve thousand dollars because they were such good
friends. I don't give that kind of money
to my friends. Anyway, well just before Rowan
died. There was an insurance policy
that was taken out on his life 25,000 dollars.
And Bill was the beneficiary, ofcourse you was, and, of course,

(01:23:12):
right after that, Ron ended up with a bullet in his head.
But no one had even interviewed bill as a suspect.
And so, white track down the insurance agent, who told a very
different story than Hale had tone of hounds book.
Remember because bills, like, we're such good friends.
He listed me because I was the last person, you know, they were
like, well, why not? His wife was like, oh, that's
because his wife was cheating onhim with somebody else of

(01:23:35):
course, which was true, but he was like he just didn't want her
to have any of the money but beside the point what the
insurance agent said was that Hale had pushed for the policy
and the insurance agent was likewell most people only need about
10,000 dollars Max especially indigenous people because once

(01:23:56):
the town got wind of all that money, it became very expensive
to bury indigenous people and the area of course and they I
jacked up the price of funerals for the Osage tribes members to
the tune of roughly 8,000 dollars.
That's a lot of money. Now, that's way too much money

(01:24:19):
back then for a funeral. Yeah, yeah.
So, the typical amount that theywould give for something like
that was about 10 grand for an indigenous person to pay for
their funeral, things of that nature, you know, help the
family out a little bit. I mean, they would have been
fine because eventually the headright money would come in the
next couple of months, and the family would be able to do what
they need to do. Right, right.

(01:24:40):
Hale says, he'll pushes the policy from 10,000 to 25,000
saying that Rowan owned him money white, didn't think that,
that was real. Because if it was real all Hill
would have had, Do was present proof of that debt to the Rowan
estate, and it would have been paid back because that money is

(01:25:00):
still dropping into an account. It's possible that Rowan never
even knew that this policy was taken out on his life.
I'm Imagine and after Rowan's funeral, they tried to pin the
murder on the man who had been sleeping with his wife.

(01:25:21):
And in fact, hail like was like you need to lead run and
actually the guy was like, know if I run people are going to
think. I did it.
He was right. Yeah.
I mean yeah. You were going to you did it
real. He'll also visited Rowan's Widow
and left a bottle of whiskey forher and she need to supposed to

(01:25:42):
have it because she was Like think that's poison.
Yes, it was. I guarantee you, it was fucking
poison white discovered that Hale had even tried to buy
Rowan's head right previously, but that literally went against
the government's ruling, there was no way you could sell your
own head, right? But the only way it could Pat be

(01:26:03):
passed down. Was through inheritance or like
dual will white followed the head rates and realized that
these were all being slowly trickling back to Molly
Burkhardt and if she It would goto her children and her husband,
Ernest Burkhart, ours. Just get the fuck out of here.
You get hers out of this man hasmoney went to Lizzie.

(01:26:24):
Lizzie's money was dispersed back to her kids when she died
Rita's. Money was actually supposed to
go to Mali to the killer hadn't intended for Bill, to outlive
Rita, which is why they had to go and have him have Bill filed
that document before he died. Right.
Right. But the bulk of all of these had
rights Now, belong to Molly. Burkhardt she's received be

(01:26:46):
receiving roughly four or five times her normal allotment girl.
Watch out, they looked into, it's got Mathis.
Who was the guardian of both Anna Brown and Lizzie in the
back pocket of hail every bit ofcorruption that agent, white
found in Fairfax had a connection to William hail, and

(01:27:07):
that made it very hard to get any justice.
So, in the fall of 25 white toldwho Hoover.
I have to get evidence to put hail away and his accomplices,
there was pressure from White's bosses but also presage pressure
from the Osage people who were, like we really appreciate what
you're doing but we're still scared.

(01:27:28):
Hmm. White was finally kind of on the
same line with usage people, which was that there is no way.
Any of the corrupt, white citizens of osich hills were
going to implicate one of their own people and murdering
Indians. So he turned to The Outlaws
instead, these men were any lessracist but some of them wanted

(01:27:49):
Hale gone too. He specifically talk to Dick.
Greg, a well-known Outlaw who had information, but he didn't
want to tell it all white met with him.
And realized that dick Greg would easily backstabbed roughly
anybody, he knew but not William.
Hail Greg did however let agent white know that Hale had met

(01:28:10):
with the outlaw out Spencer and his gang which Greg had been a
part of in 1922 and that Hale had offered them two thousand
dollars to kill Rita and Bill Smith.
Al Spencer had declined saying we're criminals but we're not
hit men and we're not just goingto murder some innocent lady.
Yep in her bag. So white ended up then going to

(01:28:32):
Henry grammar the Bootleggers who Bill visited Just like every
other witness against Hale, grammar have been killed shortly
after Bill died in 1923, there was a clear sign that if you
were a business, if you were a criminal who did business with
William hail you were going to die after your business was
concluded, oof they still had their other informant Kelsey

(01:28:53):
Morrison, who told white really bad news Beal?
Hell knows you're onto him. One of the undercover agents had
gotten close to Hale. And when they talked about the
case, he'll was like, it's all good.
I'm bulletproof. Oh really now sir?

(01:29:15):
So at that white was like, okay we're safe for now, they don't
think we're a real threat, they just know that we know about it.
October of 25 agent white gets atip, a prisoner named Bert
Lawson knew a lot about the Osage murders.
So white and Frank Smith go to Macalester, prison to talk to
him, Lawson had been a ranch hand for Bill Smith, and threw

(01:29:37):
him had met the rest of the Halefamily, all the brothers and all
that. So when Bill Smith and Lawson
had a falling out, Ernest Burkhart had gone to Lawson and
was like, listen, I need you to kill my brother-in-law, Bill
Smith. I'll give you five grand and
lost them was like listen, it's not really what I do.

(01:29:59):
But then lost and got arrested and he needed lawyers.
So he said that he agreed to do it out of desperation and that
Ernest, provided him with nitroglycerin and it even
dropped him off at Bill's house to do the deed.
And then they snuck him back into the local jail while the
cops were at the explosion. On October 24th. 1925 white
sends a telegram to Hoover saying, they have a confession

(01:30:20):
of the person who set the bomb Hoover was like bet.
Congratulations. This is when Comstock starts
receiving threats for helping with the investigation and have
even found Dynamite planted in like his windows at his house.
Like it opened the windows. Yeah.
To let the air in and he was just like there is there's a but

(01:30:41):
I know might hear this not good because a boom stick in my
window. So John ran, the UK Jack had
spoken to Molly's priest and Molly's priest was like, yeah
she hasn't been to church in like a long time but she did
send me a message saying She waspoisoned.
And so the priest was told Ren. I told her don't drink any

(01:31:03):
alcohol under any circumstances.Wasn't alcohol.
That's the thing. They didn't realize that it was
the insulin injections that werebeing poisoned and Molly was
100%, right? It was just happening, very
slowly, as to present itself as an a slow ending illness, just
like her mother. Yeah.
Finally, it was December 1925. Agent.

(01:31:25):
White couldn't wait any longer. He sent out warrants to arrest,
will help William Hale and his nephew Ernest Burkhart Earnest
got picked up right away and they took him to a jail and got
three which was a roughly like Southwest like 80 miles.
He'll actually couldn't be foundand they had learned that he
liked bought a fancy new outfit and then he strolled into the

(01:31:46):
Sheriff's Office and was like understand.
I'm wanted oh my God. And so they took him to jail and
Guthrie to they were held separately and they actually put
our In this area of the prison that was hot as hell like.
So he would be super uncomfortable.
They in fact, all the police in Guthrie were like Earnest is

(01:32:09):
gonna break first. He he just seems like he would
no one breaks in the first 24 hours, Ernest, just sit there
saying over and over your informant is lying.
Hales like I have an alibi. I was I literally got a telegram
in Texas and signed for it. How was I there for bills
assassination? White goes out in a lamb and he

(01:32:33):
decides I need to bring Blackie Thompson it.
Forgot all about Blackie got youwill remember.
They had originally used him andthen had to put him back in
prison because he was a little too rowdy.
Yeah, so he didn't even. So here's the thing.
White didn't even like talk to Hoover about this because had he
asked for permission Hoover would have said, no, because
that had been a big scandal at had gotten him in trouble.

(01:32:58):
But what he did do was WhiteheadThompson.
Always under an armed guard. They he legitimately had a
Rifleman on a nearby building. Always with his rifle on
Thompson the entire time. He was there.

(01:33:18):
Like they took every attempt to make sure Thompson did not
Escape So they bring in Thompson, he's initially kind of
hostile and rude. But when agent white goes,
listen, I don't want to know about anything else you're
doing. I want to know about, Bill Hale
and your connections to him and osich else.

(01:33:41):
And that's when they noticed that Thompson was like no longer
as aggressive. He told white, told him.
Listen, I can't shorten your sentence.
You're literally in jail for life.
But eventually Thompson began talking and he said that he had
also been offered money to Kill Bill and Rita Smith.

(01:34:04):
So they took that back to Burkhardt and they said listen
we have a second witness willingto testify that you conspired to
Kill Bill and Rita Smith and so Earnest is like nah nah you
don't and he's like who recommend?
So they bring in Thompson into the same room with Earnest and

(01:34:26):
Earnest Burkhart is shook. Circus Thompson.
Looks at Earnest and goes listener and eat.
I told him everything. Burkhart is almost like he wants
to talk but he's too scared multiple times, he liked starts
the conversation and discuss I can't They take Thompson back to

(01:34:48):
his cell white goes home. A little bit defeated.
He's like, maybe the whole that Hale has on his nephews is just
too much. In the middle of night though,
he gets a phone call and he's worried, he's like, oh God it's
a phone call like midnight. Does that mean Tom said escaped
or somebody killed himself or something like that?

(01:35:08):
No, it was the prison aren't. His Burkhart is ready to talk.
Oh, okay. Brock Holt was told his rights,
he And a paper saying he waved them and he made a statement
implicating not just his uncle in the bomb plot but connecting
hail to a lot of the criminals that agent Smith had learned
about Burkhardt told them that Lawson actually had lied and the

(01:35:31):
bomber was not Lawson. It was a demolition expert that
they had found named ASA Kirby. ASA, Kirby had been eliminated,
just like all the other criminals, that's why you
haven't heard of them, right? That's why loss of the still
alive. If he had been the one who done
it, he dead very true. He said that bill Hills.

(01:35:51):
Alibi was real. He had just paid Kirby to do the
murder Burke her. Turned out on a lot of people.
He implicated a man named John Ramsey, unknown cow Thief for
killing Henry Rowan. Ramsey initially played dumb
until they brought Burkhart signed confession to him and he
went I guess it's on my neck now.

(01:36:12):
Get your pencils. The only person that Ernest
dimming implicating, his confession was his brother
brianburkhardt. Why not?
And Brian was the Prime is this Brother?
Come on, man, his uncle but honest to give them the name of
the third man who was with Brianand Anna was in Earnest now who

(01:36:34):
was Is it Kelsey Morrison the informant that they'd had the
entire time. He didn't want to implicate
himself what, in fact, Kelsey Morrison is the person that
killed Anna. Wow.
Okay. So they went to go gather
Morrison and they decide to check on Molly Burkhardt.

(01:36:56):
He was near death. And coincidentally, as soon as
her husband was locked up and the injection stopped, Molly got
better. To the damn Brothers, what we're
brothers at Hearn has never admitted to poisoning his wife,
the show and brothers were brought in and they were asked
about what they were using to treat Molly, they never gave a

(01:37:18):
straight answer. Like I read the interviews
there. So kg like, like I said, like,
explain to you the answers that the show and brothers gave were
the same, but also very cagey. Like, at one point he was just
like, Well, why'd you ask the nurse to leave?
He was like, I don't remember asking the nurse to leave.
He was like, well, did she lie? And he's like, no.

(01:37:39):
If she said, I asked her to leave I did, but there's lots of
reasons why I could ask a nurse to leave, okay?
It was that kind of stuff. Like it was so cyclical.
And honestly, I think that I would white was just like, I'm
fed up with y'all. I want to choke that unlike you
better answer my questions correctly.
No, it was always, it was reallykg.

(01:38:00):
It was very cyclical every time.Like they were like, oh, you
know, are you sure it was insulin that you were giving
Molly Burkhart? Well, we thought it was insulin,
we don't know. We just get the syringes, we're
not putting it in there, you areputting it in her.
So you should know what you're giving a patient.
Paige I hate. Yeah, there they are.

(01:38:23):
The two. I hate In This Very Room of all
the people. You're mad at your mad at David
show at these two people you're pissing me off.
Okay. Anyway, on this, though, Molly's
like I really want the people who killed my family to go to
prison and they're like everybody.
And she's like, yeah, everybody.And they're like Ernest, she's

(01:38:43):
like, I love Earnest, she's really struggling.
She's just like, no, it's not him.
It was Earnest to with all the other confessions agent white
goes back to hail. He's like, listen, we have all
this evidence against you. An it's going to be so messy.
Your family is going to be implicated.

(01:39:05):
It's going to be a big shame to your family.
Do you really want to do all this?
He'll was like I'll fight it. Oh okay.
So, I went to court hail and theco-conspirators were tried in
both state and federal court between 1926 and 1929.

(01:39:27):
It was state and federal court because some of the murders were
done off the reservation. So those were tried in local
Court, whereas the ones on the reservation, we're done.
We're heading federally, I'm going to save you.
A lot of the sort of details, there were a lot of Deadlock
juries there were appeals overturned verdicts. halfway

(01:39:48):
through Earnest trial, like he was messed up like he was just
He's described during his trial as just looking Haggard at one
point Hale and him have the sameattorney and they bring him in
too. Like he walks in and he was like
wait. He's on our side and so they

(01:40:13):
make him go talk to that attorney.
And when he comes back, he starts recanting, all of his
confession on the stand. That gets everything.
Shut down. It's a big craziness.
And finally, that night, after Earnest was put back in prison,
he actually requested the judge and he was just like, I don't
want to do this anymore. The judges like what do you
mean? He's like why aren't you talking
to your attorney? He's like, they won't let me do

(01:40:35):
what I want to do and judges like what do you want to do?
He's like, can I just go to prison for life?
Can we just be done with us? This is really stressful and so
the judge was like okay he's like no death penalty, you just
go to jail forever. Hmm.
He turned State's evidence and told the police that Hale had.

(01:40:58):
Also gotten George big heart killed as well.
George big heart has been to seehail And then come home and I'd
he implicated his uncle in the poisoning of Joe Bates.
The trials were pretty heated, Kelsey Morrison finally admitted
to killing Anna Brown at the request of hail and he said that

(01:41:22):
Brian was his. Accomplice Brian also turns
State's evidence, it took four separate Charles to get hail
convicted. Wow.
October 29th 1929, he was only convicted for one murder.
Come on, huh? We didn't rear Owen?
Okay. Well, how long is he put away

(01:41:42):
for Or he was given life in prison and sent to Leavenworth
Prison in Kansas, okay? Unfortunately.
He was paroled on July, 31st 1947 after serving 17 years in
prison, he moved to Montana because he literally lost
everything in Oklahoma good where he became a ranch hand.
He died in Arizona and 1962 and was buried in Wichita, Kansas,

(01:42:06):
what'd he, die of natural causes, damn it cools old by
then he was in his 80s. Despite all the setbacks this
was seen as a major win for the bureau, which would become the
FBI in 1935, that's awesome and become its own.
It wasn't just a part of the Department of Justice anymore.

(01:42:26):
It was its own Federal Bureau ofInvestigation Bernie's Burkhart
received life in prison and got a full pardon from Oklahoma,
governor Henry bellmon in 1965, he wanted to go to jail, I know.
Molly divorced, her husband. Got remarried to a man named
John Cobb. They were very happy.

(01:42:48):
Actually, during Ernest trial. Their daughter Anna died.
She was 40. It was really just devastating
for her because she was like, damn, I sent her to go live with
her other family and be safe. And now she's gone.
Yeah. Molly died of natural causes in

(01:43:09):
1937. Her head right went to her.
Surviving older children, Tom onTom white went on to have an
illustrious career in the FBI. He actually ended up becoming
one of those college boys that he never liked.
He had a stroke in 1971 at 90 years old and died.
December twenty. First two months later after

(01:43:30):
this was all exposed, the US government changed the head
right law saying that the allotment could be passed.
Down to two. Nobody other than other postage
tribe members yes in an attempt to make sure the reign of terror
never happened again. No more white men coming in.
Pretty much didn't matter if youmarried into the family.

(01:43:52):
If you weren't, if you, you had to be at least 50% blood-quantum
for you to have this head, right?
That's like I said, they do still have the treaty.
Mmm, not the treaty. I'm sorry, they do still have
had Ray and they do still get That allotment but there has
been continuous issues with. The guardianship it's not the

(01:44:14):
same as it was then but there was still major mismanagement on
a bigger level Kimberly is stillgoing on.
Hey Miss, it's not the guardianship.
Oh my God if we Brittany free free days, right?
Well anything is pointed to a lot of people that
conservatorships and guardianships and things of that

(01:44:36):
nature are very easily. Get manipulated, manipulated and
taking advantage of Lily. I'm sure some of the, the
children of the Osage tribe, where some of the people who
were just straight robbed because they would have never
even looked at their accounts. Yeah, no they were kids, there
is more to this story. That was recovered.

(01:45:01):
It was discovered later when reporters looked into the cases,
I'm gonna leave that up to the people listening.
The majority of this podcast today was sourced from the Book
killers of the flower Moon, by David Graham, it is totally
worth reading. You should get yourself a copy.
There is a whole third section that discusses the newer

(01:45:23):
information that has discovered been discovered.
Recently, there's also another book that I read called the
deaths of Sybil Bolton by Dennismake Olive who learned way later
in life, that his grandmother Sybil Bolton was poisoned during
the reign of terror. That's what the movies called
to. Yes, the Is called Killers, the

(01:45:43):
flower moon. It's called the Osage murders in
the birth of the FBI together. It is one hell of a story.
I totally understand why it's a movie now.
Yeah, Leonardo playing Ernest. Yeah.
Well, I mean ours was a white guy.
So I know it's interested in who's gonna play the indigenous
women because like, who's playing Rita and Lizzie and

(01:46:04):
yeah, are they first Nations actresses?
Because I would really like that.
Yeah, Lily Gladstone, playing Molly.
Is that but yeah, I don't know. But it was like I said, one hell
of a story. I got it and this just happened.
Yeah, in our history. Holy cow.

(01:46:26):
Goodness gracious. That was a story.
I told you like, I was so hype. That's like, this went way
longer. I looked at my notes and was
like, oh dear, we're at like 17 pages, but totally, absolutely
incredibly worth. And if you listen to, thank you
so much, mmm-hmm. So, we got some spook in to talk

(01:46:48):
about. Now, we got some scrutiny to
talk about. Well, not spookin, okay.
People who investigates broken though?
Oh okay, okay, so about talk about our boy Zak Bagans.
Again, I never talk about I willnever there would never be an
episode where I talk about him, maybe definitely not.

(01:47:10):
Maybe he gets a rest of my for doing it.
Douchebag stuff. Anyway.
No today I'm going to start thisoff by apologizing, okay,
recanting, I guess whatever. Oh Lily Gladstone as a First
Nations actress knew ye I just didn't know she was I looked her
up. I've heard her name before it is
in no way. I'm gonna start it off by

(01:47:31):
apologizing to anybody who's listened or who is listening
goes back and listens to any of our earlier episodes when I
first started talking when I wastalking, I mentioned Harry,
Houdini and then and then I hear.
I mentioned Harry price as well.Okay.
And I got Harry price next up with Vincent Price.

(01:47:53):
Oh dear. Because of the same last name,
right? But Vincent Price.
Yeah. So I'd even Pete that the day
you started. Yeah.
It's okay. Like it was earlier episodes,
but I'd confuse Harry price of admission price in the
Scooby-Doo. It's appraised price is like
Like awesome. Awesome people.

(01:48:14):
Yeah, I know Harry price is awesome people to okay but I
just wanted to go back and correct that it was Vincent huh.
Are we talking about Vincent? No but maybe I should one day
because whole dude Adventure price is.
Yeah. He's one of those pillars that I
like to think about because whenI think of is the price, I go.

(01:48:35):
I know, right? Yes.
You know, weird eyebrow thing. Oh my God.
Yeah, he did. Well, ya know, the animated him
in the Scooby-Doo movies, but ohwow.
Yeah, he was in. That is fucking awesome.
Anyway. No, I'm talking about the other
price today. Okay, Harry price.
Okay. So do you know who Harry price

(01:48:57):
was cat-like? Offhand name him. okay, well,
Since I already talked about Harry Houdini, yes I'm gonna
talk about her price. Also, Harry price was basically
was he also a magic man. He did sleight of hand.
Oh but here your price was basically the.

(01:49:19):
Yeah, the UK version of Harry Houdini.
Okay? Okay, so what did he do?
The things like that? I'm locked up inside of a big
old giant case of water situation like those ones.
No, no, no. I feel so anxious.
When I watch this, nothing like that.
I'm watching a murder because look, what Houdini, he kind of
like, started out as a magician,right, and like stage magic and

(01:49:42):
stuff like that. And he became, you know, but
then he was into like the defrauding of the mediums of
stuff like that. But even then after that he did
stuff that was he did The Escapeof rotting mediums.
Yeah. So like his whole career wasn't
like the medium thing is who's kid.
That was towards the. Yeah.
And mainly that was because he got mad about the mediums and

(01:50:04):
his Look look, understandable. Yeah, listen, I don't want you
to mention anybody. Who I know who has died, fam,
tell me about some stranger's, but if the person mentioned
somebody, I know me. Mad too.
Yeah. Especially if you get it wrong
because like he's like, yeah, your mom learned English and the

(01:50:26):
afterlife get out of here. Oh, mama is Hungarian how she
won't learn English. She ain't speak English dies.
Oh my God. Yeah, but did okay, so what
Harry price do? Something similar here plays,
did you something similar? So, here, price, he started his
career out, basically with the Supernatural and then what a

(01:50:49):
paranormal, and then he learned sleight-of-hand magic and stuff
like that on his on his way. So this is a story.
I'm going to tell this it's going to be like a multi-part
because I got another your othercases from Harry price.
I want to talk about. Oh, so you're talking about one
particular A price case. I'm going to I'm going to do
like a little sure what to say because I do I did tell you that

(01:51:10):
I wrote too much and I was like,okay well let me just stop right
now. You could have gone with no
three-hour episode. We can have a three hour episode
like next week. Okay.
No it probably won't be as long bet.
Are you know I'm going to talk about next week.
I already planned it. So there you go.
Won't be as bad also. I got a I got stuff to do after

(01:51:34):
we record next week. That's right.
You do hit me. Never mind not 3 hours. 3 hours
anyway. Maybe episode 50.
So in London I don't think this was cool on his part but he kind

(01:52:01):
of wanted to change some detailsabout his early childhood.
Oh dear. Basically, mainly where he was
born, people always to do that, though.
So he wanted people. Like, if you read, I read one of
his books when I was writing this up Confessions of a ghost
hunter, okay? I think that's what it was
called and he States in her, he was born.

(01:52:26):
In. Oh, so fry shove cephalic.
No, not so folk, it's sh ROP. Shi re it's something sure.
Yeah. Yeah I'm not getting all the

(01:52:47):
letters you're saying. But literally somebody on my
timeline the other day was just like rope, she likes to sure.
They literally were like, if I have nothing to tell Americans
it's was sure. It is what?
Yes, it's Schroeder. Shire is sure.
It's that I know for sure is Shropshire, that's not sure.

(01:53:08):
All right. And not where he was born,
that's not where he was born, but he did study there and it's
a really nice place. I guess it's a lot of wealthy
people live there at that time. So he wanted people to think I
got wealthy parents and stuff like that.
Why was that something he worried about?
I don't know. Sure, he was actually born in
New cross and his father was a traveling salesman.

(01:53:31):
Nobody liked traveling salesman.We stay still.
Don't, it's a weird one of thosejobs that like was necessary,
but people hated that, The same way that people hate when people
come to your door now. Yeah that's why I had that.
I have that nice. No soliciting sign that says no
soliciting don't render Bill, don't knock, don't make it
weird. I have received so much, Mormon

(01:53:53):
stuff in the last, like, two months crazy.
Someone Mormon must be moved into this apartment.
I was like, am I just don't evenwant to talk to you?
Please don't talk to me. Oh my God.
I got a thing. Do you have a church?
Leave me alone. Leave me alone.
Anyway, at the age of 15, he found it.
The Carlton dramatic society, which is now called the carton

(01:54:18):
theater group, okay? It's place where amateur actors,
they go us, nice, play rates andstuff like that.
And this is where he wrote his first play, the skeptic, which
was an account of his first ghost experience while he was
investigating his first haunted house.
So as at age 15 like there was ahaunted house in there and you

(01:54:39):
know people Oil, they were reporting Poltergeist type
activity. So, you know, he goes there, he
checks it out and he writes thisplay about it and this is
basically the only reason why hefounded this kolchin Dramatic
Society is so he could write this play about him.
Going to investigate this haunted house.

(01:55:00):
Okay, yeah. But yeah, he goes into great
detail about this in his book, The confession of a girl's ghost
hunter, okay? You can find on arxiv.org.
It's the whole thing is there. I've looked for other books that
he has other books are but they're like.
That one's actually really good.So he was also interested in our

(01:55:23):
College archaeology, which is really cool.
It was a coin collector to and you know, just small little
tidbits of things that you know make him awesome.
An early influence to his life'swork was the great.

(01:55:44):
I cannot pronounce his name. I tried it so many times is it's
like, okay, so it's basically, I'm not saying it.
I'm not seeing any, but it's a traveling Merchant basically.
Yeah, right? Yeah, it did SSE cue, You ch.

(01:56:10):
The any EQ? Yeah uch uch.
Are you eh? Yeah yet?
Even spell it. You I forgot you hate your
writing. So anyway we're not talking
about the right now. Sequitur.
Yeah, there you go. So it's like that, that word.

(01:56:33):
So basically, this person is like a traveling Merchant or
they like a traveling Medicine, Man.
Okay? Like, oh, that makes sense like
a. It sounds a digital.
Yeah. Like, a flim-flam man sort of
that sale snake oil and stuff like that too.
So I looked up the name, snake oil salesman and it's like,

(01:56:53):
there's a whiskey neat after histo, or some type of alcohol, is
really cool looking. But yeah, so they did like magic
and stuff like that. So, Hee hee.
After you know, after he devoteshis life to like this stuff he
goes into the society is called a magic circle.

(01:57:14):
Okay. It's a British organisation made
for promoting the Arts of magic.So, here is where he learns his
sleight-of-hand and some like little parlor tricks.
So he's in the society about magic and in the society amount

(01:57:37):
of magic he's also learning about like, Conjuring things,
you know, I magicians, they conjure, I don't know, rabbits
out of hats or, you know, doves out of her arms and stuff like
that. So that counts is Conjuring and
I mean, that's probably not the kind of conjuring, he was
learning but that's what I'm thinking.

(01:57:58):
Yeah. So this gives them like a leg up
on wanting to learn more about paranormal.
So he after you know, he's in this magic circle, he joins the
society for physical research in1920, okay?

(01:58:19):
And he was interested in mediumslike Houdini but unlike Houdini
Price, He endorsed, who did, he endorse mediums that he actually
believed were like, correct? Yeah.
So unlike Houdini, who was just like, I'm not going to believe
anything. I like what the meetings.

(01:58:43):
Yeah. Hmm.
I'm more like Houdini well, trust your dad files.
Okay, her name is Amy. I forget her last name, but I
like her show. It's corroborated by a police
officer. Oh wow.
Okay. Well, former police officer who
seems like a nice guy, you know,that means something to me.
Okay, yeah. Okay.

(01:59:03):
Okay. Your benefit of the doubt.
Hmm, But yeah. So he endures mediums that you
don't want a real deal. So here is one of his earlier
cases. All right?
Like one of his very first casesso this is interesting because
this guy Started out amateur Ghost, Hunter at 15, grows up,

(01:59:26):
he's an immature, Willis Hunter archaeologist coin collector.
He wrote plays starting to feel very much Jack of all trades,
master of none. Just say, So February 1922 price
in a group of some magicians that were in his group.

(01:59:49):
They go, they're investigating one of the most famous spiritual
photographers of the time. His name was William hope, okay?
And hope so hope was a member ofthe crew Circle.
So this is a group of people whoWere basically just all spare

(02:00:10):
photographers, okay? And what hope would do, you
know, he would offer his services to people.
Of course, he gets pure Spirit, photographs taken.
And the way he would do this is that he would get people that
hold plates, I guess, and their pictures.

(02:00:31):
And after, you know, pictures were developed, they develop and
have a spirit behind them. Yeah.
Yeah. I've seen these.
Yeah. Yeah, they're actually some
really beautiful ones from him. There's the one with the two
people in the front and then there's a lady with a veil right
behind them. Super cool.
Yeah, fake as hell. Very cool though.

(02:00:52):
That's a creepy picture, but yeah, like it's really hard for
me because I went to school for photography.
So and I got to use old timey cameras.
Literally, all you have to do tomake a spirit.
Photographed is while the camerais just sitting there with the
silver exposure, right? And past, it's because it took

(02:01:14):
so long for the exposures to saddle that it anything that
just darted by. So, there are pictures of like
bugs zoom in by that like cause people to fix this with
superiors. If it was from the 1920s, I
don't trust it. As far as the spirit photography
goes like, I said, he did some Oppressive thing, you know, they
didn't look blurry, they looked cool.

(02:01:36):
Ya know, some of his pictures. They were like I looked at them.
They're actually really, really nice.
Really good. As I just know.
The one, the one, with the lady in the veil.
That's the one that I've seen that, I think is incredible.
There's another one, there's oneof Richard Price.
He got one taken not Richard. Got Richard Harry Potter Harry
price. God, I want to see that one
here. You prior Richard Pryor hold on,

(02:01:59):
Richard Pryor the comedian Ryan.Hold on here.
Um, it's picture. The picture one Harry price.
This one right here. Now look at this picture and
tell me that's not a fucking. Just look at it.
It's another lady with a veil but look at that lady's face.

(02:02:23):
you can tell it's like a It's not.
Oh yeah she looks like a mask. Yeah it looks like a freaking
statue or also fun fact. Yes.
So the way so you've used Photoshop, you are, you know,
that the different things on Photoshop or referred to as
layers layers? Yeah.

(02:02:43):
That goes back to stuff that youhad to do in Dark rooms, which I
also learned how to do in college when we had a whole dark
room year. Where you physically layered
things on top of your, like exposure.
And that's when you like, turn the light to expose it.

(02:03:04):
So there were actually ways thatyou could, it's very plausible,
he did that here. Yes, said of catching it in
picture because like I said, when people walked onto the
exposure, it showed us blurry. This looks almost like two
separate pictures next to each other.
Yep, which he very well could Could have merge those together

(02:03:24):
in the dark room. It's really intriguing.
I didn't know any of that stuff and tie.
I did it officially in school. It's just recourse, you know, I
grew up on digital cameras. So we spend the whole first year
just learning the old ways. Goodness pain-in-the-ass
carrying around that big old Honker I believe it and setting
it up in Philadelphia. so, another person got their picture

(02:03:50):
taken is Sir. Arthur Conan Doyle really love
it. Do you remember him from Houdini
episode? No, Sir.
Arthur Conan Doyle. Oh yeah, of course.
He's loves his, he loves the spiritualism.
He's and he's, you know, he's inthat scene.
So I'm not gonna lie, Sir, Arthur Conan Doyle Spirit

(02:04:13):
picture. So yeah, the picture you got was
of his dead sister. and oh, his looks way more janky, but
Pricing price had this whole group his magicians.

(02:04:33):
They had this plan to see if they could prove this this
disproved. I love it.
This is so funny. Look at this one.
This proof hope. Yeah this looks so bad.
Yeah. It's just it's like a picture
just plopped on top of another picture freaking terrible.

(02:04:54):
Who are these people being the ghosts for?
Haven't, you know, I need to find a book about Mm hope
because I'm like, I'm sure Lord,who was, who are these actors?
Who are like, bat. I'm gonna get my like five
dollars for the day to be a ghost verbally.
Him hope. I know.
I think it's could you use anybody else at that point?
Once you were in one picture, hecouldn't use you again.

(02:05:15):
Yeah, probably not. Oh, it's beautiful.
It's just super funny when you put this on YouTube, you just
have to show all these pictures that I'm laughing.
This is the good one. Okay, there is the mask.
Isn't it? Looks it looks a little bit like
a mass, but she also looks kind of real.

(02:05:35):
It's just a weird Veil. And I just like chilling.
They're like okay, we're taking a picture.
Okay, okay but my thing is, whenyou think it was like a little
bit Suspicious that he was able to get all of these Spirit
photos and show many of them arein just such good detail and
it's 1922, that's why he had investigators coming to check

(02:05:56):
him out. Okay, so like I said Harry price
and his crew magicians they havethis they have this method
worked out and so What it was, is it consistent of presenting,
hope, with a set of glass negatives that had been secretly
marked with x-rays. So it's trap worked.

(02:06:22):
So when hope return the plates, the one, the one continue the
extra Spirit image. Yeah, showed no sign of the
markings he used his own. Yep.
So you switched out the ones that the X-ray ones with his
own, gotcha. So yeah, like I said, but you

(02:06:42):
could very easily just been like, oh, I like to use my own
supplies but he let people bringtheir own plates in the stuff
too. Okay.
So it was just weird that he would switch it out, you know?
They're mean if you have people bring us up.
Okay, so he's called they're like okay dude we know you
switched out, this is this this is what happened and you know so

(02:07:05):
he was doing this during the the- process.
Yeah. So, after, you know, they find
him guilty of this spiritualist spiritualism was like, no, no,
you guys just out here. You're trying to frame our boy
for. Okay, you guys little medium
buddies to show. Ya trim.
Frame of really hope like the community.

(02:07:29):
They are supportive but for the wrong.
Oh, no. He's better wrong.
They're wrong for supporting himbecause he definitely picked it
and they were Faking it to they were if you mess it, if you mess
him up, you mess us up. So yeah, they're like you're
wrong for trying to like expose him as a fraud.
Like even Conan Doyle he was like, he came to the, you know,

(02:07:52):
Harry price and screws like hey guys, could you like recant what
you said about Hope? Because I believe he's.
All right. And there we else's, and we
don't want to see anything. Like, let's see, him going down
the time, basically, we just want to believe in ghosts, but
there are people out there who believe in this, and they're

(02:08:13):
being hurt by this. You know, like what the Houdini
thing, people are going to thesemediums like, expecting an
actual real experience, and they're going to be putting
their entire life savings on these mediums.
They spent all of their money chasing after this idea that
they could see or hear, or talk to their dead relatives again,

(02:08:34):
it was real bad. Yes.
So I do feel bad about that. Yeah, that sucks.
Yeah, so once Okay so When when Conan goes to price and he's

(02:08:58):
like can you do this in prices like nah?
Brah. Like this is this is what I do
so. So he goes and writes his
pamphlet about his side of the story and how you know it's
serious when there's a pamphlet.Oh yeah.

(02:09:18):
Definitely in about you know howhoped William hope is like this?
He's right about this stuff. I'll remind you guys Conan
Doyle. He was a believer of all things,
paranormal and spiritual and he didn't like being wrong.
So he even went as far as the contacting his good buddy.

(02:09:39):
Harry Houdini at this time to. I think they're still friends at
this time. He's before they like completely
had that following. Yeah, I believe so.
Can you get your fellow magic buddy and tell him to leave me
alone and Houdini was kind of like conflicted, right?
When because at this time, he was also on his way to go

(02:10:01):
investigate. Hope this like this man is just
lying. That wasn't really your sister.
Oh my God. L write another book so I have

(02:10:22):
what he wrote to Houdini. So he wrote this letter to ready
on April 13th. 1922 and he writes I've written a book on
Psychic photography with specialreference to the crew.
Circle the evidence in their favour is overwhelming though.
What happened on a special occasion with two, amateur

(02:10:43):
conjurer's out of his stunts in a third dingwall behind them?
What it is, is more than I can say.
We found that another test was in dependably carried out about
the same time. Well, I guess my other is
situation. So they're talking about the,

(02:11:04):
the silver plates, right? The ones that they that means is
how you did photos back that. Yeah.
And so, they're saying that theyhad little bits in the, the
silver plates. I don't think what they got.
I think Hope was a total fraud, but I don't think what they got
was really enough to say. He was a complete and total

(02:11:24):
fraud, I guess, since he switched the plates out, Could
he could have come up with an E lot.
Like it'll come up with loads oflogical reasons why you may be a
broke. You know, the array.
I'm so sorry. Your Originals got messed up.
I had to use my own instead, like I feel like you was just a
bad shyster because I'm come up with a good lie as to why he

(02:11:46):
used a different one. Well, you probably wasn't caught
before either church and so he'slike, oh yeah, little that we
call that. Like, they think that they're
like, you know, a humorous. Yeah, he had a little bit of
that hubris. And that's like, really, what
messed him up. Up them, like I can think of a
million reasons why I would be like nah, I use my own stuff.
Yep. So after he writes this letter
to, you know, Houdini Houdini's like, hmm, not really impressed

(02:12:09):
by this sir. So, like I said, yeah, well I
love his reasoning. Listen, I wrote a book and like
if you release this information,my books going to be wrong.
He thinks ticklish. So like can you know, I can you
like comment down over there with Your and I get it but like

(02:12:30):
I have a book to sell sir. So like doesn't matter because
after where they're no longer friends anymore?
Yeah. So like I said, burn that
bridge, right? He really did, he really did it
was bad Houdini was already on his way?
Well, he was yeah, he was planning on going to investigate

(02:12:50):
William hope, but they got therefirst.
Okay, what do scheduling Houdinicouldn't go?
So he had someone else it in on and get a picture taken for him.
He did the same thing. That that price did.
What do you know the plates? And I will say, it's It shows
some level of skill, we're talking mid-1920s being able to

(02:13:14):
to do that and make it look likeoh, yeah, absolutely Sir, Arthur
Conan Conan. Doyle's, actual sister.
Yeah, that's skill. That means that he had to
manufacture a lot of drawing andadjustments, which also explains
why he couldn't use, just that one play here because he was

(02:13:35):
probably using multiple layers of to get that image.
You could tell like that one. You just showed me what the big
face and like the middle. You can tell it's like different
plates on top of. Yeah, yeah.
So I mean that would explain whyhe didn't have.
It wasn't done with just one. Yeah.
It was done with multiple layers, you still very
interesting. It really is like you, you put

(02:13:55):
in the work for this. I like you're still faking a
fraud, but you put into words what an impressive way of using
your skill set? Oh, goodness.
There's, there's important things you can do in post like
the whole concept of like dodging photos and things of
that nature, that's done in post, when you're, you know,

(02:14:17):
making something darker, making something lighter, that that
process is useful and can make the picture look better.
Yeah, he just did all that stuff.
Just to lie to make a quick buck.
So after, you know, Houdini doesthis thing.
Sir, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle? Okay, he writes another letter

(02:14:40):
to Houdini. Oh no, basically saying that.
Okay, so we're not friends anymore.
No nothing. He writes and says, hey, those
place, I had those x-ray markings on them.
Those x-ray markings they disappear after a while.
So, obviously he wasn't used. He did use their place at the

(02:15:05):
They did that, they brought but the X-ray markings disappeared.
Hmm. So, after you get this letter,
Houdini was like all right, sometimes I'm tired of being
like the middleman. So he goes and he contacts
price. So Harry price in Houdini Dirk
under buddy, buddy. So they're kind of cool guys
together. And he tells price about the,

(02:15:29):
you know, the X-ray, your stuff in prices.
Like dude, I'm all right. On top of this because I know
for a fact, he's x-ray markings,don't disappear.
Yeah. When you said that my face did a
what? Yeah that's not how that works
at all. I'm like whatever sir the whale.

(02:15:51):
Yeah and who do you like all right cool.
Cool long as you know All right.So I like that, though.
I'm not a professional courtesy for people uncovering fraud.
Absolutely, just letting you know, he's saying that you gave
him bad plates. It disappeared.
It was your fault. He's like, no.

(02:16:12):
No, don't worry. I got this.
Yeah, there's there's this wholeback and forth between these
three guys. Okay, the Houdini just being the
middleman with Nicole. You couldn't do it.
You just coming to him and saying, hey, your body price is
wrong about this and this is whyit would be so annoyed.
Yeah, and phrases like, yo, get your boy Conan Doyle out of here

(02:16:34):
because he's, he's harassing thehell out of me and my group.
We're just trying to take pictures of ghosts.
God. Oh my God.
I tell ya, I only want to see a picture of a ghost somewhere
that I'm never coming back to. Because if his ones in my house
like this yellow house now, fam,Guess you live here?

(02:16:57):
Yeah but soon years later. Okay Conan Doyle he admits
defeat. After years years of harassing
Harry price about just this one thing.
Like I mean they didn't ever released the book though.
The pamphlet? Yeah.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you did well.
Did he release the book about how he had studied ghosts

(02:17:20):
photography and all that stuff? I'm pretty sure he did.
We look up. If you look him up, I'm pretty
sure you'll find it. But I want to know he's like I'm
just gonna release this book anyway.
Screw it. But yeah, that's funny but like
I said they dropped their whole career Harry price in Sir Arthur

(02:17:44):
Arthur Conan Doyle. They never saw eye-to-eye to
fight. They just stopped to fight each
other. It's crazy.
It was crazy. And like paraphrase, he was like
the nicer version of Houdini. Like, he gave me was a benefit
of the doubt and Houdini was like, all right.
I know you're faking from. Neither thing.
Is that Houdini's? Just like, I'm just gonna have
some He crawled under this fucking tape.

(02:18:09):
Watch your legs. Oh my God.
So after exposing after this whole situation, whole thing is
blown over now. And after exposed like this is
his first case I mind you. So after exposing a few more
people at the spr Harry price, he starts his own organizations

(02:18:31):
called the National Laboratory of physical research.
He gets a little bit of flak from the spr that he was in,
because he actually paid his median, the mediums that he came
that came in to his test. He paid them for a time and
they're like, don't don't be paying these mediums.

(02:18:51):
Like, they might be frauds, how are you paying these frogs?
You know what I mean? You're just giving money to
frogs. I'm just saying because that's
like, yeah, but like, they're there.
Spr whole thing was, you know, we're going to find out these,
you know, or find these mediums that are, you know, doing

(02:19:11):
fraudulent readings and stuff like that.
But here prizes like well yeah, but they're coming to me to do
the readings and stuff. So I'm gonna give him the
painting for the time and you know, it's only fair and I agree
with you like what he did there.so, there are many more cases

(02:19:36):
like I said in the beginning that your price was involved in
this was this one was just like the tip of the iceberg, like his
starting point, and I will be covering One or two more, maybe
like there's a big one. I'm going to cover it like next
week's. Okay.
But either way, Price was praised for his work at, you

(02:19:59):
know, the bunking, fake mediums and his paranormal investigation
skills. Okay, there have been several
biographies written about Harry price, some critical some
sympathetic so very, very critical.
There was one that was released in 2006.
I about how he was a con man in stuff like that.

(02:20:23):
It was like, dude. Dude, I'm pretty sure know that
that he was exposing the con people, true.
I mean, yeah, we're out here to bunking things and mediums.
There are people out there who are writers and who don't like
you even write bad things about you.
Yeah no I understood. Yeah so price would later died

(02:20:50):
at his home or March 29th. 1948 from a massive heart attack and
that's what I got for this week.It's not as long as I should
just wait until next week. I got some stuff for you.
It's going to make you laugh andit's going to be funny.

(02:21:12):
So we interesting, it's gonna becompelling All right.
Well, I'm interested more stories.
Good, you're getting more, you're going to get more.
What do you like it or not? Goodness.
Well, I just interesting path we've taken today.

(02:21:35):
Yeah, I just, I don't know. I just like, I like the game of
telephone between these grown-ass, man.
I just like how you got here your price or just know.
They're they're doing the same thing.
So they're buddies, they have their own community, and then
you have Conan Doyle out here with his group of spiritualist.

(02:21:57):
And they're just like, look, we're gonna curse you and you
all this stuff, if you don't stop telling the truth.
Oh, I just love. I just love to debunking and
just invasive investigation intothe stuff.
It's really awesome. But yeah, that's it for me.

(02:22:18):
Hope you guys enjoyed the episode this week.
Yeah, I think we had a good time.
Yeah, always. Have a good time.
Is always fun. And then your story is always.
They always throw me for a loop.That's because the the shortened
version of what we know. Like, there's always so much
more to it, so there's always a backstory to something.

(02:22:43):
Yeah, somebody told me that theylisten to last week's podcast
three times. What?
Yeah, I was like, oh well. Thank you.
Oh, my God. Why why did you do that?
I guess they were really into You mad at me?
Were you also mad that you learned?

(02:23:04):
What was as Catherine night? Yeah, you learned that her first
husband or whatever was cheatingon her when she was accusing him
of cheating on her and I was like, no, he was cheating on
her, but he's actually cheating on her.
Yeah, you were really upset whenI brought that point out.
You were like, wait, no, like, how dare you sir?
Oh my God, dang it for being a scoundrel.

(02:23:25):
He still didn't deserve to be like beat with a frying pan.
No fan. Okay, no, he did not but he
also, but regardless, thank you for listening to the 30-some
percent of people who stay till the very end do.
Yeah, you're also do stay in theend.
I actually just would love to invite you to be a part of this

(02:23:46):
with us. We have so many ways that you
can talk to us more. Some of those are through
patreon, you can send messages, we respond through patreon.
Ryan talks to people on there. Like I said, for people who do
do the 50, Dollar tear, you get to have a Q&A with us once a
month. You can talk about whatever you
like. You can give us any sort of

(02:24:07):
criticism that you want. We have our own little like I am
a once a month you have access to the extra podcast.
Yep which is gonna get spooky this October.
Oh goodness, working on it alongwith a lot of other things.

(02:24:29):
So, thank you for listening. Yeah, we appreciate it a night.

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