June 13, 2024 • 16 mins
Veterans who are homeless or at risk for homelessness often face legal issues that make it difficult for them to obtain or maintain stable housing. Thanks to the VA's Legal Services for Veterans program, these needs are now being met in unique and effective ways. Butch sits down with program's national coordinator Madolyn Gingell to talk about how veterans can access legal support and the new grant program that is empowering local legal providers to assist.
If you are a veteran in crisis please call the Veterans Crisis Line: Dial 988 and press 1
Click here for more on the Legal Services for Veterans program.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is not a new need. What we've learned over more than a decade is that the top 10
(00:05):
unmet needs of our veterans experiencing homelessness are those unmet legal needs. And after years
of advocacy, legislation was passed that allowed for the creation of the Legal Services for
Veterans Program.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough. Hosted by retired
(00:26):
Major General Butch Tait, this podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau
of Justice Assistance.
Welcome to our podcast, a podcast entitled when thank you is not enough. While service
members or veterans appreciate someone saying to us thank you for your service, it's well
(00:48):
past the time where we need to go beyond simply saying thank you. The focus of this podcast
is on those who have taken that next step to put in place services that demonstrate
our nation's thanks for a veterans or service member's service. Today's guest certainly
is an example of what I'm talking about.
Now you've heard me talk before on this podcast about the tremendously negative impact of
(01:11):
unmet civil legal needs on the recovery of our veterans. As we get them through the Veterans
Treatment Court program, they graduate, but the road to recovery can be much more challenging
when those unmet civil legal needs meet them right in the face as they walk out of the
door a graduate of the Veterans Treatment Court.
(01:33):
Again, today's guest is one of those individuals who is able to talk about what is actually
being done to go beyond saying thank you for your service. We welcome to the podcast Madeline
Gingell, the National Coordinator of the Legal Services for Veterans, a new Veterans Administration
program. So Madeline, welcome to the show.
(01:55):
Great. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
So I think everybody wants to know a little bit about who you are before we get started.
So before we dig into your work and the role of legal services for veterans, I'd like to
start with learning a little bit about you. What brought you to the VA and what's the
why behind your work, Madeline?
You know, I was really raised in a rural community, blue collar family. So work ethic and public
(02:20):
service was truly a priority within our family. Also, I'm a child, a daughter, a granddaughter,
a niece, a sister of many veterans. So coming to the VA really seemed just like a natural
fit for me. And I quite honestly feel I consider it a privilege, a privilege to serve. I did
(02:44):
not serve. So I get to give back and to be a steward of federal resources is I take that
very seriously.
So certainly the VA and our nation's veterans are grateful for your willingness to do so.
Now, you're not new to this space. You've been at the VA for over 10 years. You've seen
up close the incredible strides the VA has made in supporting our justice involved veterans.
(03:08):
Can you give us some insight of how this issue has evolved at the VA over the last decade?
And by this issue, I mean legal services for veterans. Just give us a sense of kind of
where we've been so we can appreciate where we are today.
Certainly, certainly. This is not a new need. We can we look back to the challenge survey
(03:29):
and that really the challenge survey is an instrument that gives a voice to the veterans
who are experiencing homelessness. And the challenge survey helps to identify barriers
to permanent housing for these veterans. And it also helps to foster partnerships to address
these needs.
So what we've learned from the challenge survey over more than a decade is that the top 10
(03:51):
unmet needs of our veterans experiencing homelessness are those unmet legal needs. So we have to
have the information from the challenge survey, which is just the voice of the veteran. And
after years of advocacy, legislation was passed that allowed for the creation of the legal
services for veterans program.
(04:11):
So that's pretty remarkable. The survey goes out to the homeless veterans. They've identified
their top 10 concerns. And as you said, those concerns, those top 10 can be addressed in
the legal space, if you will. So with that kind of as a backdrop, could you give us an
(04:31):
idea of the program, the legal services for veterans program and the services that it
will offer?
Yeah, yeah. So I like to think of the VA legal services for veterans program as having kind
of like three main focus areas. So the first is really to do outreach and training to help
promote equitable access to legal services for veterans. That's very important. The other
(04:55):
is to help grow and promote the pro bono medical legal partnership model throughout the VHA.
And that's essentially legal service providers on site at VA facilities providing free legal
services for veterans. And then the third focus area, which is really like expanding
(05:16):
is the grant authorities. So this is funding specifically for legal services for veterans.
And our current grant is legal services for homeless veterans and veterans at risk for
homelessness.
So, you know, there's a common misconception in this space. And I've seen it since I've
been working in this area for almost 10 years now that the legal services are a back end
(05:41):
solution for veterans. And by that, I mean, the vet says, hey, I've got a problem. It's
a legal problem. I need to get it fixed. So that's what I mean by a back end solution.
But you and I both know that if we can get in front of the problem and address the legal
concern before it becomes a debilitating crippling problem for the veteran, prevent it if you
(06:04):
will, that that's the optimal solution. So can you talk about ways in which access to
basic legal support can prevent veteran homelessness, unemployment, and potentially even suicide?
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. There's a tremendous amount of work being done on the prevention
side. And just a couple, just some general examples. You can think of a veteran who may
(06:30):
be experiencing domestic violence or intimate partner violence where they need that legal
advocacy to help with protection orders so they don't become homeless. So that veteran
and possibly their young children don't have to go to a shelter. They can get the legal
advocacy for the protective orders so then they can transition into stable housing. We
(06:52):
also see so many situations where veterans just need the representation or they need
to understand what their rights are with housing situations, again, to prevent from them becoming
homeless. So landlord-tenant issues, just simple legal advocacy. It really is that key
to prevention so an individual does not become homeless, but also just to maintain their
(07:19):
dignity and respect.
You know, today's program really has three potential audiences and by that I mean it's
got something to offer for three distinct groups of listeners. One, of course, will
be the veteran who is in need of free legal services. The other would be those providers,
the nonprofits, for example, who are interested in providing those services for our veterans.
(07:45):
And then, of course, the attorney who wants to donate his or her time as part of a medical-legal
partnership. So there really is something in this discussion for everyone. And I want
to talk now about that nonprofit provider who's interested in applying for a grant and
then in turn providing these pro bono services. So if you could just take a moment and tell
(08:08):
us about the grants, who's eligible and how do they apply?
So our current grant program, it started August 1st, very first grant cycle. It's the legal
services for homeless veterans and veterans at risk for homelessness. We currently have
79 grantees providing services to eligible veterans across 38 states in the District
(08:29):
of Columbia. And these grantees are public or nonprofit private entities. So for instance,
legal aid societies, a 501c3 non-for-profit organization that has the capacity to provide
legal services. And we also have a handful of law schools that are grantees. So the focus
(08:52):
is really for the direct provision of legal services.
So Madeline, I've said on the program before that our listeners, they just have to trust
me. I'm their lawyer. And so when I say what a big deal this program is, I really do mean
it. I'm not a hack or a huckster for the VA, but I am for sure a big fan of what the VA
(09:18):
does for our veterans. This is a big deal, a big step, and especially, it may not be
law, it may be lost on some of the audience, maybe not. But the fact that it's actually
been funded is a big deal. It's one thing to have a program. It's really another thing
to have a funded program. So this is just exciting news and a great initiative, yet
(09:39):
again by the VA. Now you mentioned the grant to the grantee process to nonprofits. This
program is really localized, as I understand it, with big VA, of course, as the umbrella,
but it sounds like veterans will access this program through community-based programs.
(10:03):
Why I assume that's important to you all, or you wouldn't have set it up that way, so
why is it important that this is a localized program?
Well, we couldn't do anything without our partners. Legal services are not a part of
the medical services package, so when a veteran becomes eligible for VHA services, legal services
(10:26):
is not part of that package. So that's why, as you said, this funding, this grant authority
is so essential, because then the VA can fund eligible entities to provide these legal services.
We're extremely grateful to them. They're wonderful partners. We're only in the very
first grant cycle, so we are looking forward to expanding the grant program, and we hope
(10:51):
the announcement to come out this summer for the next grant cycle.
You know, that's your great guess. That was kind of my next question. So you're in 38
states. You have 79 grantees. The potential is there that this next cycle will expand
that. Again, for those listening, that is just a big deal. I just can't emphasize that
(11:13):
enough. And it's also a testament, again, to the VA recognizing it's important to thank
our veterans for their service, but it's even more important to take the next step, which
is put in place implement programs that demonstrate our thanks. You know, there's a couple of
open-ended questions here, and you take them wherever you'd like to take them, but I'm
(11:36):
sure that given your time with the VA, given your time and hard work on this program, there
are lots of stories that drive you every day. You certainly mentioned the family connection,
the service connection, but can you share a story that sort of drives you every day
to ensure the effective implementation of this program?
(11:58):
When I started my career at the VA, I had already worked in the private sector, so I'm
a social worker. But when I came to the VA, it just brought it to a completely different
level, right? Not only the population that you work with, obviously the veterans, they've
(12:20):
given so much, but so many of them ask for so little. So, just to be able to work with
individuals that are so deserving yet in so many cases so humble, and really, I can't
say how many times I've heard, no, I don't need that. Someone else needs it better than
(12:41):
they need it more than I do. So, I don't have one specific example or experience. It's just
the consistent experiences that I've had of really just wanting to do more, right? Just
(13:01):
to give more than 100% for so many that are so deserving yet again, they would rather
help someone else than themselves.
Well, it's for sure. I'm a believer in you, and I'm a believer in this program. Although
I misled you when I said I had only two questions left, I now have only two questions left.
(13:26):
And we'll wrap up with where our veteran is, our listeners, our grantees, potential grantees
can get more information, but is there anything else at this point that you want the listeners
to take away from today's discussion? Anything else you want to offer?
With the grant program, we do have specific allowable types of legal services. So, I touched
(13:47):
upon the housing law, right? The advocacy family law, it covers family law, also assistance
with income support. I know I touched upon protective orders, help with protective orders.
For certain situations, these legal services can assist the veteran with a military discharge
upgrade or characters of discharge, access to healthcare, limited criminal defense, and
(14:14):
tax or consumer issues like fraud or tax identity, I'm sorry, or identity fraud. So, it does
cover many different types of legal services. However, not every grantee has the capacity
to provide those types of services. So, I would encourage the listener, if you think
(14:35):
you may need legal services, you may qualify, reach out, check our website, see if there's
a grantee in your area, but speak directly with that grantee. We're a new program, we're
growing, we know we don't have all of the answers yet. That's certainly our goal, but
I would just encourage anyone listening to reach out to the grantee and speak to them
(14:58):
directly.
Darrell Bock And we'll certainly put information on the
Justice for Vets website for folks to access information on this program. I know it's already
on the VA website. You've been certainly a wonderful guest for this episode, but beyond
that, you've been a wonderful provider for services that improve the outcomes for our
(15:22):
veterans. I wish I had been a better host for you today, but this has just gotten me
so excited that honestly, I hope our listeners appreciate just how far we've come and how
this program is going to change the lives and improve the outcomes of our veterans.
So I want to thank again our guests, Madeline Jengel, the National Coordinator of the Legal
(15:44):
Services for Veterans. And not only thank you for being a part of our podcast series,
but also thank you for your commitment to improving the outcomes and the recovery process
for our veterans. Thanks so much, Madeline.
Madeline Jengel Thank you. Thank you. And I look forward to
coming back and sharing how well we're expanding and better serving our veterans.
Darrell Bock I've already written that down. Anybody who
(16:05):
volunteers to be a guest on my podcast, it's a guaranteed slot. So thanks very much, Madeline.
Look forward to seeing you again.
Madeline Jengel Thank you.
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast, when thank you is not enough. Hosted by retired
major general Butch Tait. This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau
(16:25):
of Justice Assistance. Thanks for listening.
This is not a new need. What we've learned over more than a decade is that the top 10
(00:05):
unmet needs of our veterans experiencing homelessness are those unmet legal needs. And after years
of advocacy, legislation was passed that allowed for the creation of the Legal Services for
Veterans Program.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough. Hosted by retired
(00:26):
Major General Butch Tait, this podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau
of Justice Assistance.
Welcome to our podcast, a podcast entitled when thank you is not enough. While service
members or veterans appreciate someone saying to us thank you for your service, it's well
(00:48):
past the time where we need to go beyond simply saying thank you. The focus of this podcast
is on those who have taken that next step to put in place services that demonstrate
our nation's thanks for a veterans or service member's service. Today's guest certainly
is an example of what I'm talking about.
Now you've heard me talk before on this podcast about the tremendously negative impact of
(01:11):
unmet civil legal needs on the recovery of our veterans. As we get them through the Veterans
Treatment Court program, they graduate, but the road to recovery can be much more challenging
when those unmet civil legal needs meet them right in the face as they walk out of the
door a graduate of the Veterans Treatment Court.
(01:33):
Again, today's guest is one of those individuals who is able to talk about what is actually
being done to go beyond saying thank you for your service. We welcome to the podcast Madeline
Gingell, the National Coordinator of the Legal Services for Veterans, a new Veterans Administration
program. So Madeline, welcome to the show.
(01:55):
Great. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
So I think everybody wants to know a little bit about who you are before we get started.
So before we dig into your work and the role of legal services for veterans, I'd like to
start with learning a little bit about you. What brought you to the VA and what's the
why behind your work, Madeline?
You know, I was really raised in a rural community, blue collar family. So work ethic and public
(02:20):
service was truly a priority within our family. Also, I'm a child, a daughter, a granddaughter,
a niece, a sister of many veterans. So coming to the VA really seemed just like a natural
fit for me. And I quite honestly feel I consider it a privilege, a privilege to serve. I did
(02:44):
not serve. So I get to give back and to be a steward of federal resources is I take that
very seriously.
So certainly the VA and our nation's veterans are grateful for your willingness to do so.
Now, you're not new to this space. You've been at the VA for over 10 years. You've seen
up close the incredible strides the VA has made in supporting our justice involved veterans.
(03:08):
Can you give us some insight of how this issue has evolved at the VA over the last decade?
And by this issue, I mean legal services for veterans. Just give us a sense of kind of
where we've been so we can appreciate where we are today.
Certainly, certainly. This is not a new need. We can we look back to the challenge survey
(03:29):
and that really the challenge survey is an instrument that gives a voice to the veterans
who are experiencing homelessness. And the challenge survey helps to identify barriers
to permanent housing for these veterans. And it also helps to foster partnerships to address
these needs.
So what we've learned from the challenge survey over more than a decade is that the top 10
(03:51):
unmet needs of our veterans experiencing homelessness are those unmet legal needs. So we have to
have the information from the challenge survey, which is just the voice of the veteran. And
after years of advocacy, legislation was passed that allowed for the creation of the legal
services for veterans program.
(04:11):
So that's pretty remarkable. The survey goes out to the homeless veterans. They've identified
their top 10 concerns. And as you said, those concerns, those top 10 can be addressed in
the legal space, if you will. So with that kind of as a backdrop, could you give us an
(04:31):
idea of the program, the legal services for veterans program and the services that it
will offer?
Yeah, yeah. So I like to think of the VA legal services for veterans program as having kind
of like three main focus areas. So the first is really to do outreach and training to help
promote equitable access to legal services for veterans. That's very important. The other
(04:55):
is to help grow and promote the pro bono medical legal partnership model throughout the VHA.
And that's essentially legal service providers on site at VA facilities providing free legal
services for veterans. And then the third focus area, which is really like expanding
(05:16):
is the grant authorities. So this is funding specifically for legal services for veterans.
And our current grant is legal services for homeless veterans and veterans at risk for
homelessness.
So, you know, there's a common misconception in this space. And I've seen it since I've
been working in this area for almost 10 years now that the legal services are a back end
(05:41):
solution for veterans. And by that, I mean, the vet says, hey, I've got a problem. It's
a legal problem. I need to get it fixed. So that's what I mean by a back end solution.
But you and I both know that if we can get in front of the problem and address the legal
concern before it becomes a debilitating crippling problem for the veteran, prevent it if you
(06:04):
will, that that's the optimal solution. So can you talk about ways in which access to
basic legal support can prevent veteran homelessness, unemployment, and potentially even suicide?
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. There's a tremendous amount of work being done on the prevention
side. And just a couple, just some general examples. You can think of a veteran who may
(06:30):
be experiencing domestic violence or intimate partner violence where they need that legal
advocacy to help with protection orders so they don't become homeless. So that veteran
and possibly their young children don't have to go to a shelter. They can get the legal
advocacy for the protective orders so then they can transition into stable housing. We
(06:52):
also see so many situations where veterans just need the representation or they need
to understand what their rights are with housing situations, again, to prevent from them becoming
homeless. So landlord-tenant issues, just simple legal advocacy. It really is that key
to prevention so an individual does not become homeless, but also just to maintain their
(07:19):
dignity and respect.
You know, today's program really has three potential audiences and by that I mean it's
got something to offer for three distinct groups of listeners. One, of course, will
be the veteran who is in need of free legal services. The other would be those providers,
the nonprofits, for example, who are interested in providing those services for our veterans.
(07:45):
And then, of course, the attorney who wants to donate his or her time as part of a medical-legal
partnership. So there really is something in this discussion for everyone. And I want
to talk now about that nonprofit provider who's interested in applying for a grant and
then in turn providing these pro bono services. So if you could just take a moment and tell
(08:08):
us about the grants, who's eligible and how do they apply?
So our current grant program, it started August 1st, very first grant cycle. It's the legal
services for homeless veterans and veterans at risk for homelessness. We currently have
79 grantees providing services to eligible veterans across 38 states in the District
(08:29):
of Columbia. And these grantees are public or nonprofit private entities. So for instance,
legal aid societies, a 501c3 non-for-profit organization that has the capacity to provide
legal services. And we also have a handful of law schools that are grantees. So the focus
(08:52):
is really for the direct provision of legal services.
So Madeline, I've said on the program before that our listeners, they just have to trust
me. I'm their lawyer. And so when I say what a big deal this program is, I really do mean
it. I'm not a hack or a huckster for the VA, but I am for sure a big fan of what the VA
(09:18):
does for our veterans. This is a big deal, a big step, and especially, it may not be
law, it may be lost on some of the audience, maybe not. But the fact that it's actually
been funded is a big deal. It's one thing to have a program. It's really another thing
to have a funded program. So this is just exciting news and a great initiative, yet
(09:39):
again by the VA. Now you mentioned the grant to the grantee process to nonprofits. This
program is really localized, as I understand it, with big VA, of course, as the umbrella,
but it sounds like veterans will access this program through community-based programs.
(10:03):
Why I assume that's important to you all, or you wouldn't have set it up that way, so
why is it important that this is a localized program?
Well, we couldn't do anything without our partners. Legal services are not a part of
the medical services package, so when a veteran becomes eligible for VHA services, legal services
(10:26):
is not part of that package. So that's why, as you said, this funding, this grant authority
is so essential, because then the VA can fund eligible entities to provide these legal services.
We're extremely grateful to them. They're wonderful partners. We're only in the very
first grant cycle, so we are looking forward to expanding the grant program, and we hope
(10:51):
the announcement to come out this summer for the next grant cycle.
You know, that's your great guess. That was kind of my next question. So you're in 38
states. You have 79 grantees. The potential is there that this next cycle will expand
that. Again, for those listening, that is just a big deal. I just can't emphasize that
(11:13):
enough. And it's also a testament, again, to the VA recognizing it's important to thank
our veterans for their service, but it's even more important to take the next step, which
is put in place implement programs that demonstrate our thanks. You know, there's a couple of
open-ended questions here, and you take them wherever you'd like to take them, but I'm
(11:36):
sure that given your time with the VA, given your time and hard work on this program, there
are lots of stories that drive you every day. You certainly mentioned the family connection,
the service connection, but can you share a story that sort of drives you every day
to ensure the effective implementation of this program?
(11:58):
When I started my career at the VA, I had already worked in the private sector, so I'm
a social worker. But when I came to the VA, it just brought it to a completely different
level, right? Not only the population that you work with, obviously the veterans, they've
(12:20):
given so much, but so many of them ask for so little. So, just to be able to work with
individuals that are so deserving yet in so many cases so humble, and really, I can't
say how many times I've heard, no, I don't need that. Someone else needs it better than
(12:41):
they need it more than I do. So, I don't have one specific example or experience. It's just
the consistent experiences that I've had of really just wanting to do more, right? Just
(13:01):
to give more than 100% for so many that are so deserving yet again, they would rather
help someone else than themselves.
Well, it's for sure. I'm a believer in you, and I'm a believer in this program. Although
I misled you when I said I had only two questions left, I now have only two questions left.
(13:26):
And we'll wrap up with where our veteran is, our listeners, our grantees, potential grantees
can get more information, but is there anything else at this point that you want the listeners
to take away from today's discussion? Anything else you want to offer?
With the grant program, we do have specific allowable types of legal services. So, I touched
(13:47):
upon the housing law, right? The advocacy family law, it covers family law, also assistance
with income support. I know I touched upon protective orders, help with protective orders.
For certain situations, these legal services can assist the veteran with a military discharge
upgrade or characters of discharge, access to healthcare, limited criminal defense, and
(14:14):
tax or consumer issues like fraud or tax identity, I'm sorry, or identity fraud. So, it does
cover many different types of legal services. However, not every grantee has the capacity
to provide those types of services. So, I would encourage the listener, if you think
(14:35):
you may need legal services, you may qualify, reach out, check our website, see if there's
a grantee in your area, but speak directly with that grantee. We're a new program, we're
growing, we know we don't have all of the answers yet. That's certainly our goal, but
I would just encourage anyone listening to reach out to the grantee and speak to them
(14:58):
directly.
Darrell Bock And we'll certainly put information on the
Justice for Vets website for folks to access information on this program. I know it's already
on the VA website. You've been certainly a wonderful guest for this episode, but beyond
that, you've been a wonderful provider for services that improve the outcomes for our
(15:22):
veterans. I wish I had been a better host for you today, but this has just gotten me
so excited that honestly, I hope our listeners appreciate just how far we've come and how
this program is going to change the lives and improve the outcomes of our veterans.
So I want to thank again our guests, Madeline Jengel, the National Coordinator of the Legal
(15:44):
Services for Veterans. And not only thank you for being a part of our podcast series,
but also thank you for your commitment to improving the outcomes and the recovery process
for our veterans. Thanks so much, Madeline.
Madeline Jengel Thank you. Thank you. And I look forward to
coming back and sharing how well we're expanding and better serving our veterans.
Darrell Bock I've already written that down. Anybody who
(16:05):
volunteers to be a guest on my podcast, it's a guaranteed slot. So thanks very much, Madeline.
Look forward to seeing you again.
Madeline Jengel Thank you.
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast, when thank you is not enough. Hosted by retired
major general Butch Tait. This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau
(16:25):
of Justice Assistance. Thanks for listening.
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