May 15, 2023 • 21 mins
“These [veterans treatment court] mentors, it's not the traditional mentor model...They're just there to listen. I think we underplay the power of listening."
Todd Kramer is living proof that the justice system can play a role in facilitating treatment and recovery. His story also exemplifies the therapeutic camaraderie that exists among those who serve. Todd served in both the Air Force and the Army and deployed as a 40 year old E5. When he came home he struggled to reengage and his addiction deepened. He found recovery and his purpose in veterans treatment court. Hear his remarkable story and learn how volunteer mentors like Todd are the lifeblood of veterans treatment courts today.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This mentor-mentee relationship is the easiest in the world and the minute we start to complicate it is when we lose it.
(00:05):
These vet court mentors, it's not the traditional mentor model. You know, it's not a big brother or a big sister.
It's not an AA sponsor. You know, they're just there to listen.
I think we underplay the power of listening.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when Thank You is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate, his podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
(00:35):
Hi, this is Butch Tate, Justice for Vets. I want to thank you for joining today's podcast,
Justice for Vets, when Thank You is not enough.
My guest today is Mr. Todd Kramer.
Todd's a great dude, and I think that you'll come to that same conclusion when all is said and done.
(00:56):
I'm going to ask him to share his story, but also share his current experience where he serves as the mentor coordinator for the court in Denver, Colorado.
You'll hear that Todd is an Air Force veteran. He is also an Army veteran.
And he has had more than one person share of challenges.
(01:20):
And I don't bring that up just because I felt like throwing it out there.
I bring it up because it's going to provide context for the comments that he'll make today.
So there for those of you listening, you'll get a real sense of where Todd is coming from.
But Todd, I want to thank you for joining us and we look forward to hearing from you today.
So with that, you know, as we talked the other day on the phone, Todd,
(01:46):
this is your story to tell as much or as little as you want.
So I'd like to just kind of start there.
Tell us a little bit about your background that will provide context for what you do as a mentor coordinator.
So go ahead, please.
Yeah, absolutely, General.
My story is pretty much centered around alcoholism. You know, it was very much a family disease.
(02:10):
I watched both my parents die those slow alcoholic deaths and it took hold of me pretty young.
You know, I figured out at a very early age how you dealt with everything in life, you know,
from celebration to tragedy, you know, everything was dealt with a drink.
And, you know, that had that first drink at six and I remember my first drunk at 11 and then at 16,
(02:36):
I was at 14. Actually, I was drinking daily.
And then at age 16, I got my first DUI before I ever got a driver's license and that started a long road,
you know, from the age of 16 to the age of 32, some city, county, state, federal municipality was managing my life.
(02:57):
I lived on probation. I lived in jail.
And then I did what a lot of us do. I didn't know this until I started doing this work in the vet courts,
but I escaped that alcoholic home looking for something that I didn't have.
And I entered the Air Force in the early 80s and I just, I fell in love immediately with this structure,
(03:23):
camaraderie and purpose that we talk about, you know, in my home, you just never knew what was coming around the corner.
And there was there was absolutely no love. So when I found the military, I mean, I just I just fell in love with it immediately.
I don't know how else to put that, you know, I mean, I found an organization that that that saw me, right?
(03:45):
And if I did well, they awarded me. If I did better, they promoted me.
I mean, come on, I couldn't wrap my head around that. But it was that second day in boot camp.
I remember I always tell people it wasn't about that man in my face.
It was about all those men and women around me that I knew was going to save me.
And it was this brotherhood and this brotherhood I speak of. I don't want to single out any females here.
(04:10):
The brotherhood I speak of in the military is is genderless, you know, it's racist and it's ageless.
And I found out really quick after boot camp that those people had my back.
And and then I found out really quick in combat that we really do have this undying love for each other, you know, and that carries way on after service after we ETS.
(04:32):
But good ol alcoholism, you know, I did really well as the youngest in my command to pass the law enforcement death sergeant exam.
I was a law enforcement specialist, did really well.
And I always tell people that alcoholism always gets gets us in the end.
And I just kept, I just kept screwing up left and right.
(04:54):
And and finally, I got into an incident off base that got the attention of the base commander and I was forced out almost two years to the date of a four year tour.
And then my drinking just took this pivotal turn, you know, what used to be a little bit of a social lubricant and a little bit of dependency turned into anger.
(05:15):
And I started drinking at things.
And I was a mad young man and my 20s were just a blur. I spent most of them locked up.
Convict I was evicted from every apartment I had fired from every job I had.
And at the age of 32 in 1996, the gig was kind of up now. Now I got 90 W I's on record.
(05:37):
For those were in the state of Texas and that pissed Texas off and it wasn't if Todd was going to prison.
It was for how long I had to go and then Christmas Eve of 1996.
A miracle happened. It was divine intervention, in my opinion.
And I'd driven everybody I loved away, but I had one friend that combed the Houston area of the FW's and that's a lot of the FW's until she found a veteran lawyer that took my case pro bono.
(06:04):
He didn't know me from Adam and he thought it'd be a good idea if I got 30 days of rehab and and I went to rehab.
I didn't go to rehab to get sober.
I went to rehab to stay out of prison.
That second week before the light came on and I realized I realized a lot of things that I was the problem.
I blamed everybody in my life for my alcoholism, but me and the biggest revelation was that it was going to take a community to get me sober.
(06:30):
Every time I've treated recovery as a self help program, I have failed miserably and I got that 30 days done with back and front of that judge.
He was not impressed. That was not enough assurance to her that I would go out and kill somebody in a vehicle.
So in walks, mentor number two, that veteran lawyer is mentor number one mentor number two comes in and he proposed that his American Legion would get me a scholarship to go to a man's nine month halfway program.
(06:59):
And she agreed to that.
That judge agreed to that to one term that I would report to her each one of those nine months, report progress and any regress I was going to prison and I believed her.
And you know, those men came to court with me every one of those nine months.
I thought I'm just curious. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but with those with the veteran mentors, were they all your generation?
(07:21):
Were they Vietnam vets? Where they where they fit into the spectrum here?
That's a good point. Those veterans were both Vietnam veterans.
And I just want to say right now that I have never met a more compassionate, empathetic, loving group of men and women than our Vietnam veterans.
(07:44):
They vow not to let these younger men and women go through what they went through.
And we probably gave them every reason in the world to not be that way, by the way, that we treated that generation of veterans.
And Todd, at some point, I know you became an Army veteran as well. When did you go into the Army and how long did you stay?
I did. I got sober and stayed sober for about 11 years and then post 9-11 happened.
(08:10):
President Bush stood up, asked if you had any military experience, please help.
I answered the call. I called the Air Force. They wouldn't have me and I called the Army and they came out to my job that day and swore me in.
So the next thing I knew I was in a combat MP company, guard unit out of Phoenix.
And off we went. I was a 40 year old E5.
(08:32):
You know, I don't think people realize that post 9-11 covered a lot of generations.
You know, I was an 18 year old gunners. I was a 40 year old E5 team leader and my first sergeant served in Vietnam.
So off we went and it was a super messy tour, General.
Did you have to go to basic training again as a 40 year old?
I did a very quick fast track version in Fort Polk, Louisiana.
(08:57):
Yeah, I was just thinking that boy, the thought of doing that at 40 years old is a bit daunting.
It's not lost on me hearing your story how that parallel of the brotherhood and sisterhood fits right into where you see in court these days as a mentor coordinator with the mentors that come before you.
(09:19):
But let me ask you a question.
Sure.
And that is it. What was the turning point?
And of course, keeping in mind that there are men and women listening to this going, I haven't had that turning point, but I'm waiting for it.
It's out there. So what was Todd Cramer's turning point that headed him on the path of hope and restoration?
(09:41):
Well, fortunately or unfortunately, you know, when I came home, it was textbook and I lost it.
I just lost it. I was peddling in extremely dangerous behavior.
I couldn't get along with civilians. I had the best job in the world.
I was designing troop armor and I got fired from that job because I just couldn't get along with civilians.
(10:04):
And so everything happened at once. It was a lot of loss.
The wife left and my dad died.
Now I'm sitting on a pot of money.
He had a cattle ranch outside of Austin and I took two years.
The army taught me how to hide well and I got a travel trailer and a puppy.
And in two years, I went through $100,000 in cocaine and crown whiskey and that wound me up when I was tempted to suicide.
(10:32):
And that was really my turning point.
Would you say that that puts you, you're kind of, for lack of a better term, there's probably a much better way to describe this.
Was that kind of rock bottom for you?
Oh, yes, sir. It certainly was.
That was that you never get tired. You and I talked for almost an hour yesterday minus the 10 minutes.
I was late because I couldn't tell time.
But, you know, what, why don't you give up on hope?
(10:56):
Why did you not give up on hope during this journey?
You know, it was when I was on Suicide Watch.
I, you know, I was reporting to a psych doctor once a week for nine weeks,
and it was this, it was this psych nurse that I had to see before each one of those visits.
And what I didn't know about Malcolm at the time was he was a retired Navy combat corpsman, recovered alcoholic.
(11:24):
And that guy took me under his wing.
I mean, he did things that I'm almost certain would have got him fired today.
But the biggest thing he did is he got me together with three of these Vietnam vets and we fished these East Texas waters for six weeks straight.
And that's where I heard it, General.
I was suffering from a lot of moral injury.
And when that Vietnam veteran was pouring his heart out to me, I mean, it was just the most amazing thing.
(11:49):
It gave me so much courage to talk about what I'd been through.
And it gave me courage to go forward to get more treatment to seek out the VA and ultimately to find the Veterans Treatment Corps because the VA was paying me 100 percent.
And I just wanted to volunteer.
And that's when I found this court and it wasn't long after I started volunteering that they offered me a position to coordinate the mentor program.
(12:12):
So no surprise that you are where you are now because not to put words in your mouth, but it seems to me you definitely appreciated the role and the value of the mentor in your journey, your successful journey to where you are today.
But how about your mentor coordinator? I think you're responsible for the mentors and some eight courts in the Denver area.
(12:35):
But a little while ago, we had Judge Russell talk to us about the value he places on mentors.
But how about talking about the role of the mentor in your Veterans Treatment Court?
Again, looking at this from the perspective of the listener who may find herself in that court and being told, this is your mentor.
What does that mentor's role in relation to the veteran?
(13:00):
I'll quote my mentor, good friend, Jack O'Connor, that he says this mentor-mentee relationship is the easiest in the world.
And the minute we start to complicate it is when we lose it.
These vet court mentors, it's not the traditional mentor model.
It's not a big brother or a big sister.
It's not an AA sponsor.
They're just there to listen.
(13:22):
I think we underplay the power of listening.
And these veterans just need to, it's not conversation, it's processing, right?
So we're actually there just to support, to listen.
And then we have these amazing VTC treatment teams.
So every problem that that mentor, that veteran client is going through, somebody on that VTC team can address.
(13:45):
I hear it often, Todd, I want to see my kids more.
Okay, brother, well, let's go talk to that public defender.
That's his job.
Todd, I can't make these UA's.
I'm having problems making employment.
Well, let's go talk to the probation officer about that.
She sets those case plans.
It's a super easy relationship.
It's the most inspirational.
And again, that's where those Vietnam vets come in.
(14:06):
About half of my 30-man corps are Vietnam veterans.
And they're just, man, everything they do is with compassion and love.
And it's super, super inspirational to watch.
And again, that's to their credit because we gave them every chance in the world to not be that way.
You mentioned Jack O'Connor.
You're exactly right.
He has a way of putting things that we can all relate to.
(14:29):
You, and I would agree that to the extent we don't over legislate the role of the mentor in the court, the better off we are.
I know that, you know, we have a publication out there where we try to describe the role of the mentor,
and Justice for Vets as a battle buddy.
And some folks would say, well, that's not very academic.
(14:50):
Well, let's be honest, I wrote it and I am not an academic.
And it just seemed to me that any veteran who would see that and go, oh, battle buddy, now I got it.
I don't need a lot of rules to tell me what that means.
And I think that's exactly what you're saying.
And it's exactly right that it's a battle buddy who just guides them through the process.
That is correct.
That is correct.
And it doesn't matter what area you served in, if you're combat or not, you know,
(15:14):
you're a veteran and you speak the language.
And I think we forget that sometimes.
And I hear it in a lot of different ways, you know, Todd, I don't have time,
or I don't have anything to offer the veteran community.
Yes, brother, you do.
You have everything to offer.
Just the fact that you raised your hand.
Man, that oath of the enlistment, that's something else.
I've never seen a civilian equivalent of it yet.
But that is your bond.
(15:36):
That's what fosters the trust.
And that leads me to my next question for you.
And it's related to so much of what you've already said, and that is,
let's just play a role here.
I'm a post-911 vet.
I'm a young soldier.
The Army showed me the door.
I find my way in getting crosswise with the law.
The next thing I know, I'm in Veterans Treatment Court.
(15:58):
And I find this guy, Todd Kramer, who says,
okay, this is your mentor.
And the mentor is like seventy-some years old, Vietnam.
That person cannot know what it's like to be me as a post-911 vet.
What do you tell that veteran who might be balking at connecting with
that Vietnam era or Vietnam veteran?
(16:20):
Yeah, that could be no further from the truth, right?
I mean, again, that Vietnam veteran knows the language.
And you'd be surprised how much their war mirrored ours in so many ways.
In so many ways.
I watch it all the time.
And I have female mentors, Vietnam veteran female mentors working with men.
(16:43):
I mean, it's, there are no boundaries here when it comes to that, you know.
That's good to hear.
I also tell these guys, you know, it's very important that you stay connected with your unit in some way.
You know, I have two battle buddies that I see often.
You know, it's very important, especially in the guard, because when we get home, we disperse.
(17:05):
We go back to our civilian jobs.
It's super important that you stay connected with your unit in some way, if that makes sense.
No, it does.
Powerful point there.
And that'll especially resonate with our guard and reserve component veterans.
Let me ask you two more things, Todd, before I let you go.
The first is this.
We know from listening to Judge Russell's and others on this podcast that there are quite a few services available once a justice-involved veteran gets into court.
(17:34):
But I also think you and I would agree that it'd be really nice if we, if they never saw the inside of a courtroom,
we want to get them that help ahead of time.
Your advice to veterans listening to us today who want to get that help, but they don't know exactly where to turn.
What do you tell them when it's time to get help and how do they find it?
(17:56):
Oh, you know, there's so much out there.
There wasn't necessarily an 04 and 06, but now there's so much out there.
I highly recommend that you get registered with the VA.
They just have amazing programs.
If you're combat, I'd highly suggest these vet centers.
Just great places that deal with combat and military sexual trauma.
(18:20):
And then there's the organizations are just endless.
I mean, in my state, Warrior Now is huge.
And they're all about getting vets out.
You know, Warrior Now says it doesn't matter if it's a bowling ball, a fishing pole, or a campfire, we're going to get you out.
And remember that experience I had with that Vietnam vet that was overfishing, man.
I mean, you'd be amazed what comes out of that.
(18:41):
And, you know, our VFWs, our VFWs are hurting right now.
They really need the post-911 vet to carry it through.
And also remember that every VA office has a VA experience office.
And then those offices are peer navigators.
They're veterans.
And it's their job to connect you with all these programs.
(19:03):
So I just, I know, I know there's some inversion to some folks about going in the VA,
but a lot of people that are, that they don't understand why.
And I highly, highly recommend to get connected with the VA.
And then you got Moorwood Warrior Project and, you know, Project Keeling Waters.
There's so many out there, but those VA peers, that's their job to connect you with those folks.
(19:28):
So get registered, find those peer networks.
And Todd, you and I both know that setbacks are inevitable.
It's only the very few, the very lucky who are very fortunate who don't have setbacks
in this journey to recovery.
What do you tell the vets when they try one particular avenue to get help,
didn't like the person, didn't connect, et cetera.
(19:52):
I feel like, here we are back at the start again.
What do you say to them?
Well, you know, I think James said it in your first podcast, just don't give up.
Just don't give up.
I mean, I ran into some VA therapists that I didn't necessarily connect with.
That drove me to the vet center.
I love those guys.
Those guys gave me the courage to kind of go forward.
(20:14):
And then today, you know, I see a private therapist, you know, that's just more personable.
And just don't give up, man. Just don't give up.
Hey, Todd, I want to thank you for joining us today and not just joining us.
That was just a matter of a couple of clicks on Zoom.
But more importantly, for your willingness to share your story, to talk about your setbacks,
(20:36):
but also to really focus on your recoveries and, you know, the journey to where you are today.
That's your man of courage, as I told you, a man of resilience.
And we are grateful of your willingness to help others find that same path, embrace that same resilience,
and find hope restored to their life.
(20:57):
So once again, personal thanks, but also on behalf of Justice for Vets.
Thanks to Mr. Todd Kramer, mentor coordinator out in Denver for joining us today.
We appreciate it.
Thank you, Gerald.
It's been an honor, sir.
You take care of yourself.
You too, sir.
See you down the road, brother.
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough.
(21:20):
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Thanks for listening.
This mentor-mentee relationship is the easiest in the world and the minute we start to complicate it is when we lose it.
(00:05):
These vet court mentors, it's not the traditional mentor model. You know, it's not a big brother or a big sister.
It's not an AA sponsor. You know, they're just there to listen.
I think we underplay the power of listening.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when Thank You is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate, his podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
(00:35):
Hi, this is Butch Tate, Justice for Vets. I want to thank you for joining today's podcast,
Justice for Vets, when Thank You is not enough.
My guest today is Mr. Todd Kramer.
Todd's a great dude, and I think that you'll come to that same conclusion when all is said and done.
(00:56):
I'm going to ask him to share his story, but also share his current experience where he serves as the mentor coordinator for the court in Denver, Colorado.
You'll hear that Todd is an Air Force veteran. He is also an Army veteran.
And he has had more than one person share of challenges.
(01:20):
And I don't bring that up just because I felt like throwing it out there.
I bring it up because it's going to provide context for the comments that he'll make today.
So there for those of you listening, you'll get a real sense of where Todd is coming from.
But Todd, I want to thank you for joining us and we look forward to hearing from you today.
So with that, you know, as we talked the other day on the phone, Todd,
(01:46):
this is your story to tell as much or as little as you want.
So I'd like to just kind of start there.
Tell us a little bit about your background that will provide context for what you do as a mentor coordinator.
So go ahead, please.
Yeah, absolutely, General.
My story is pretty much centered around alcoholism. You know, it was very much a family disease.
(02:10):
I watched both my parents die those slow alcoholic deaths and it took hold of me pretty young.
You know, I figured out at a very early age how you dealt with everything in life, you know,
from celebration to tragedy, you know, everything was dealt with a drink.
And, you know, that had that first drink at six and I remember my first drunk at 11 and then at 16,
(02:36):
I was at 14. Actually, I was drinking daily.
And then at age 16, I got my first DUI before I ever got a driver's license and that started a long road,
you know, from the age of 16 to the age of 32, some city, county, state, federal municipality was managing my life.
(02:57):
I lived on probation. I lived in jail.
And then I did what a lot of us do. I didn't know this until I started doing this work in the vet courts,
but I escaped that alcoholic home looking for something that I didn't have.
And I entered the Air Force in the early 80s and I just, I fell in love immediately with this structure,
(03:23):
camaraderie and purpose that we talk about, you know, in my home, you just never knew what was coming around the corner.
And there was there was absolutely no love. So when I found the military, I mean, I just I just fell in love with it immediately.
I don't know how else to put that, you know, I mean, I found an organization that that that saw me, right?
(03:45):
And if I did well, they awarded me. If I did better, they promoted me.
I mean, come on, I couldn't wrap my head around that. But it was that second day in boot camp.
I remember I always tell people it wasn't about that man in my face.
It was about all those men and women around me that I knew was going to save me.
And it was this brotherhood and this brotherhood I speak of. I don't want to single out any females here.
(04:10):
The brotherhood I speak of in the military is is genderless, you know, it's racist and it's ageless.
And I found out really quick after boot camp that those people had my back.
And and then I found out really quick in combat that we really do have this undying love for each other, you know, and that carries way on after service after we ETS.
(04:32):
But good ol alcoholism, you know, I did really well as the youngest in my command to pass the law enforcement death sergeant exam.
I was a law enforcement specialist, did really well.
And I always tell people that alcoholism always gets gets us in the end.
And I just kept, I just kept screwing up left and right.
(04:54):
And and finally, I got into an incident off base that got the attention of the base commander and I was forced out almost two years to the date of a four year tour.
And then my drinking just took this pivotal turn, you know, what used to be a little bit of a social lubricant and a little bit of dependency turned into anger.
(05:15):
And I started drinking at things.
And I was a mad young man and my 20s were just a blur. I spent most of them locked up.
Convict I was evicted from every apartment I had fired from every job I had.
And at the age of 32 in 1996, the gig was kind of up now. Now I got 90 W I's on record.
(05:37):
For those were in the state of Texas and that pissed Texas off and it wasn't if Todd was going to prison.
It was for how long I had to go and then Christmas Eve of 1996.
A miracle happened. It was divine intervention, in my opinion.
And I'd driven everybody I loved away, but I had one friend that combed the Houston area of the FW's and that's a lot of the FW's until she found a veteran lawyer that took my case pro bono.
(06:04):
He didn't know me from Adam and he thought it'd be a good idea if I got 30 days of rehab and and I went to rehab.
I didn't go to rehab to get sober.
I went to rehab to stay out of prison.
That second week before the light came on and I realized I realized a lot of things that I was the problem.
I blamed everybody in my life for my alcoholism, but me and the biggest revelation was that it was going to take a community to get me sober.
(06:30):
Every time I've treated recovery as a self help program, I have failed miserably and I got that 30 days done with back and front of that judge.
He was not impressed. That was not enough assurance to her that I would go out and kill somebody in a vehicle.
So in walks, mentor number two, that veteran lawyer is mentor number one mentor number two comes in and he proposed that his American Legion would get me a scholarship to go to a man's nine month halfway program.
(06:59):
And she agreed to that.
That judge agreed to that to one term that I would report to her each one of those nine months, report progress and any regress I was going to prison and I believed her.
And you know, those men came to court with me every one of those nine months.
I thought I'm just curious. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but with those with the veteran mentors, were they all your generation?
(07:21):
Were they Vietnam vets? Where they where they fit into the spectrum here?
That's a good point. Those veterans were both Vietnam veterans.
And I just want to say right now that I have never met a more compassionate, empathetic, loving group of men and women than our Vietnam veterans.
(07:44):
They vow not to let these younger men and women go through what they went through.
And we probably gave them every reason in the world to not be that way, by the way, that we treated that generation of veterans.
And Todd, at some point, I know you became an Army veteran as well. When did you go into the Army and how long did you stay?
I did. I got sober and stayed sober for about 11 years and then post 9-11 happened.
(08:10):
President Bush stood up, asked if you had any military experience, please help.
I answered the call. I called the Air Force. They wouldn't have me and I called the Army and they came out to my job that day and swore me in.
So the next thing I knew I was in a combat MP company, guard unit out of Phoenix.
And off we went. I was a 40 year old E5.
(08:32):
You know, I don't think people realize that post 9-11 covered a lot of generations.
You know, I was an 18 year old gunners. I was a 40 year old E5 team leader and my first sergeant served in Vietnam.
So off we went and it was a super messy tour, General.
Did you have to go to basic training again as a 40 year old?
I did a very quick fast track version in Fort Polk, Louisiana.
(08:57):
Yeah, I was just thinking that boy, the thought of doing that at 40 years old is a bit daunting.
It's not lost on me hearing your story how that parallel of the brotherhood and sisterhood fits right into where you see in court these days as a mentor coordinator with the mentors that come before you.
(09:19):
But let me ask you a question.
Sure.
And that is it. What was the turning point?
And of course, keeping in mind that there are men and women listening to this going, I haven't had that turning point, but I'm waiting for it.
It's out there. So what was Todd Cramer's turning point that headed him on the path of hope and restoration?
(09:41):
Well, fortunately or unfortunately, you know, when I came home, it was textbook and I lost it.
I just lost it. I was peddling in extremely dangerous behavior.
I couldn't get along with civilians. I had the best job in the world.
I was designing troop armor and I got fired from that job because I just couldn't get along with civilians.
(10:04):
And so everything happened at once. It was a lot of loss.
The wife left and my dad died.
Now I'm sitting on a pot of money.
He had a cattle ranch outside of Austin and I took two years.
The army taught me how to hide well and I got a travel trailer and a puppy.
And in two years, I went through $100,000 in cocaine and crown whiskey and that wound me up when I was tempted to suicide.
(10:32):
And that was really my turning point.
Would you say that that puts you, you're kind of, for lack of a better term, there's probably a much better way to describe this.
Was that kind of rock bottom for you?
Oh, yes, sir. It certainly was.
That was that you never get tired. You and I talked for almost an hour yesterday minus the 10 minutes.
I was late because I couldn't tell time.
But, you know, what, why don't you give up on hope?
(10:56):
Why did you not give up on hope during this journey?
You know, it was when I was on Suicide Watch.
I, you know, I was reporting to a psych doctor once a week for nine weeks,
and it was this, it was this psych nurse that I had to see before each one of those visits.
And what I didn't know about Malcolm at the time was he was a retired Navy combat corpsman, recovered alcoholic.
(11:24):
And that guy took me under his wing.
I mean, he did things that I'm almost certain would have got him fired today.
But the biggest thing he did is he got me together with three of these Vietnam vets and we fished these East Texas waters for six weeks straight.
And that's where I heard it, General.
I was suffering from a lot of moral injury.
And when that Vietnam veteran was pouring his heart out to me, I mean, it was just the most amazing thing.
(11:49):
It gave me so much courage to talk about what I'd been through.
And it gave me courage to go forward to get more treatment to seek out the VA and ultimately to find the Veterans Treatment Corps because the VA was paying me 100 percent.
And I just wanted to volunteer.
And that's when I found this court and it wasn't long after I started volunteering that they offered me a position to coordinate the mentor program.
(12:12):
So no surprise that you are where you are now because not to put words in your mouth, but it seems to me you definitely appreciated the role and the value of the mentor in your journey, your successful journey to where you are today.
But how about your mentor coordinator? I think you're responsible for the mentors and some eight courts in the Denver area.
(12:35):
But a little while ago, we had Judge Russell talk to us about the value he places on mentors.
But how about talking about the role of the mentor in your Veterans Treatment Court?
Again, looking at this from the perspective of the listener who may find herself in that court and being told, this is your mentor.
What does that mentor's role in relation to the veteran?
(13:00):
I'll quote my mentor, good friend, Jack O'Connor, that he says this mentor-mentee relationship is the easiest in the world.
And the minute we start to complicate it is when we lose it.
These vet court mentors, it's not the traditional mentor model.
It's not a big brother or a big sister.
It's not an AA sponsor.
They're just there to listen.
(13:22):
I think we underplay the power of listening.
And these veterans just need to, it's not conversation, it's processing, right?
So we're actually there just to support, to listen.
And then we have these amazing VTC treatment teams.
So every problem that that mentor, that veteran client is going through, somebody on that VTC team can address.
(13:45):
I hear it often, Todd, I want to see my kids more.
Okay, brother, well, let's go talk to that public defender.
That's his job.
Todd, I can't make these UA's.
I'm having problems making employment.
Well, let's go talk to the probation officer about that.
She sets those case plans.
It's a super easy relationship.
It's the most inspirational.
And again, that's where those Vietnam vets come in.
(14:06):
About half of my 30-man corps are Vietnam veterans.
And they're just, man, everything they do is with compassion and love.
And it's super, super inspirational to watch.
And again, that's to their credit because we gave them every chance in the world to not be that way.
You mentioned Jack O'Connor.
You're exactly right.
He has a way of putting things that we can all relate to.
(14:29):
You, and I would agree that to the extent we don't over legislate the role of the mentor in the court, the better off we are.
I know that, you know, we have a publication out there where we try to describe the role of the mentor,
and Justice for Vets as a battle buddy.
And some folks would say, well, that's not very academic.
(14:50):
Well, let's be honest, I wrote it and I am not an academic.
And it just seemed to me that any veteran who would see that and go, oh, battle buddy, now I got it.
I don't need a lot of rules to tell me what that means.
And I think that's exactly what you're saying.
And it's exactly right that it's a battle buddy who just guides them through the process.
That is correct.
That is correct.
And it doesn't matter what area you served in, if you're combat or not, you know,
(15:14):
you're a veteran and you speak the language.
And I think we forget that sometimes.
And I hear it in a lot of different ways, you know, Todd, I don't have time,
or I don't have anything to offer the veteran community.
Yes, brother, you do.
You have everything to offer.
Just the fact that you raised your hand.
Man, that oath of the enlistment, that's something else.
I've never seen a civilian equivalent of it yet.
But that is your bond.
(15:36):
That's what fosters the trust.
And that leads me to my next question for you.
And it's related to so much of what you've already said, and that is,
let's just play a role here.
I'm a post-911 vet.
I'm a young soldier.
The Army showed me the door.
I find my way in getting crosswise with the law.
The next thing I know, I'm in Veterans Treatment Court.
(15:58):
And I find this guy, Todd Kramer, who says,
okay, this is your mentor.
And the mentor is like seventy-some years old, Vietnam.
That person cannot know what it's like to be me as a post-911 vet.
What do you tell that veteran who might be balking at connecting with
that Vietnam era or Vietnam veteran?
(16:20):
Yeah, that could be no further from the truth, right?
I mean, again, that Vietnam veteran knows the language.
And you'd be surprised how much their war mirrored ours in so many ways.
In so many ways.
I watch it all the time.
And I have female mentors, Vietnam veteran female mentors working with men.
(16:43):
I mean, it's, there are no boundaries here when it comes to that, you know.
That's good to hear.
I also tell these guys, you know, it's very important that you stay connected with your unit in some way.
You know, I have two battle buddies that I see often.
You know, it's very important, especially in the guard, because when we get home, we disperse.
(17:05):
We go back to our civilian jobs.
It's super important that you stay connected with your unit in some way, if that makes sense.
No, it does.
Powerful point there.
And that'll especially resonate with our guard and reserve component veterans.
Let me ask you two more things, Todd, before I let you go.
The first is this.
We know from listening to Judge Russell's and others on this podcast that there are quite a few services available once a justice-involved veteran gets into court.
(17:34):
But I also think you and I would agree that it'd be really nice if we, if they never saw the inside of a courtroom,
we want to get them that help ahead of time.
Your advice to veterans listening to us today who want to get that help, but they don't know exactly where to turn.
What do you tell them when it's time to get help and how do they find it?
(17:56):
Oh, you know, there's so much out there.
There wasn't necessarily an 04 and 06, but now there's so much out there.
I highly recommend that you get registered with the VA.
They just have amazing programs.
If you're combat, I'd highly suggest these vet centers.
Just great places that deal with combat and military sexual trauma.
(18:20):
And then there's the organizations are just endless.
I mean, in my state, Warrior Now is huge.
And they're all about getting vets out.
You know, Warrior Now says it doesn't matter if it's a bowling ball, a fishing pole, or a campfire, we're going to get you out.
And remember that experience I had with that Vietnam vet that was overfishing, man.
I mean, you'd be amazed what comes out of that.
(18:41):
And, you know, our VFWs, our VFWs are hurting right now.
They really need the post-911 vet to carry it through.
And also remember that every VA office has a VA experience office.
And then those offices are peer navigators.
They're veterans.
And it's their job to connect you with all these programs.
(19:03):
So I just, I know, I know there's some inversion to some folks about going in the VA,
but a lot of people that are, that they don't understand why.
And I highly, highly recommend to get connected with the VA.
And then you got Moorwood Warrior Project and, you know, Project Keeling Waters.
There's so many out there, but those VA peers, that's their job to connect you with those folks.
(19:28):
So get registered, find those peer networks.
And Todd, you and I both know that setbacks are inevitable.
It's only the very few, the very lucky who are very fortunate who don't have setbacks
in this journey to recovery.
What do you tell the vets when they try one particular avenue to get help,
didn't like the person, didn't connect, et cetera.
(19:52):
I feel like, here we are back at the start again.
What do you say to them?
Well, you know, I think James said it in your first podcast, just don't give up.
Just don't give up.
I mean, I ran into some VA therapists that I didn't necessarily connect with.
That drove me to the vet center.
I love those guys.
Those guys gave me the courage to kind of go forward.
(20:14):
And then today, you know, I see a private therapist, you know, that's just more personable.
And just don't give up, man. Just don't give up.
Hey, Todd, I want to thank you for joining us today and not just joining us.
That was just a matter of a couple of clicks on Zoom.
But more importantly, for your willingness to share your story, to talk about your setbacks,
(20:36):
but also to really focus on your recoveries and, you know, the journey to where you are today.
That's your man of courage, as I told you, a man of resilience.
And we are grateful of your willingness to help others find that same path, embrace that same resilience,
and find hope restored to their life.
(20:57):
So once again, personal thanks, but also on behalf of Justice for Vets.
Thanks to Mr. Todd Kramer, mentor coordinator out in Denver for joining us today.
We appreciate it.
Thank you, Gerald.
It's been an honor, sir.
You take care of yourself.
You too, sir.
See you down the road, brother.
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough.
(21:20):
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Thanks for listening.
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