October 2, 2024 • 29 mins
As a veteran and licensed clinical social worker, RanDee McLain Malone, Ph.D. has been a driving force behind helping justice, treatment, and social service professionals better respond to female veterans. In this episode, RanDee shares her insight into the unique challenges female veterans face and talks with Butch about overcoming barriers to identifying female veterans, ways to avoid retraumatizing them, understanding where to find additional gender-specific support, and the many ways in which our justice and treatment responses can better offer a "whole-person approach."
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
When the average American thinks about a veteran, they think about a male.
(00:04):
That's who they envision.
If you are that female veteran, that can absolutely minimize or her own experiences.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast, when Thank You is Not Enough,
hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
(00:30):
Welcome. This is Butch Tate, Chief Counsel for All Rise and Justice for Vets.
And I want to welcome you to episode seven of our podcast, when Thank You is Not Enough.
As you've heard me say time and again, I'm always grateful and was certainly grateful
when I was on active duty, when someone would see me in the airport and thank me for my service.
(00:51):
And I appreciated that. But as all of us know, we're at this point where Thank You is simply
not enough to address the unique challenges of our veteran population.
This podcast focuses instead on resiliency and hope and providing actionable solutions
to address the critical issues facing our veterans.
(01:12):
And as you'll see from our guest today, that's exactly what we intend to do.
And that is provide actionable solutions to talk about references, resources,
to talk about resiliency and hope.
Our guest today is Dr. Randy McLean Malone, Navy veteran, doctorate in social work,
(01:33):
member of the faculty for Justice for Vets and a licensed clinical social worker.
She'll address the unique challenges and needs of our female justice involved veterans.
So Randy McLean, welcome to the podcast.
Randy McLean Good morning. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Randy McLean Now we all know that Randy is not a newcomer to this space.
(01:55):
And so I look forward to what I'm going to learn from her about the challenges faced by our female
veterans. She has an extraordinary career, academic training, experience, recognition
twice as the San Diego County's veteran of the year in 2014 and 2021, and so much more.
(02:18):
And all that is certainly important and serves as the basis for some of the comments she'll make
today. In fact, probably all the comments she'll make today, but we'll post her bio.
You can learn more about her, but I want to get right into it with Randy.
So we can deliver what we promised we would deliver, which are actionable solutions,
(02:38):
resources and references. So Randy, as I've already said, you are a Navy veteran.
You are married to a retired veteran. And what other military service runs in your family?
Randy McLean Yeah, so my family is I have a long history of military in my family.
(02:59):
My grandfather's both served. I also have several uncles. My older brother served ahead of me.
And yeah, and several cousins, a handful of cousins. So big military family for sure.
Yeah. And again, I think that too fuels your passion for what you do for our
(03:19):
current generation of veterans. Tell us, I've alluded to the fact that you are a Navy veteran.
You know, what led you to serve in the Navy and what did you take away from your Navy experience?
Yeah, I will admit I was not military was not what I thought about when I grew up.
I always wanted to be a police officer. I always wanted to be in law enforcement.
(03:42):
My brother, as I mentioned earlier, went two years ahead of me into the military.
And I went off to college and started a career in law enforcement. And then a little thing called
9-11 happened. And that kind of changed the trajectory of my life. And I joined the Navy and
right at the end of 2001. And how many years did you serve, Randy?
(04:05):
I got out at the end of 2009. So just under eight.
So you know, as we've all experienced, the military makes it pretty easy to get into the military,
right? You just before you know what you're in, and it's time to learn left from right.
But let's talk instead about not so much how you got in or why you got in, but your experience
transitioning out of the military, because that can sometimes be sort of the line of demarcation,
(04:32):
if you will, that starts creating challenges for all of us as we leave behind that community of
brothers and sisters. So talk about your experience, please, of transitioning out of the military.
Yeah, absolutely. So my transition, you know, at the time, I thought it was very unique.
Now with years of experience, I realized that this is probably something a lot of our veterans face.
(04:58):
But when I was getting out, I ended up being med boarded. So I was injured in 2007 and had
multiple surgeries and went through the medical process. The Navy came back and said, well,
you're either going to separate or you're going to separate and we'll pay you. So I got separated.
(05:19):
I had compounded that with at the same time, I was going through some personal challenges of
leaving a divorce marriage. And so I was facing a divorce and had some personal loss in my family.
So the reason why I highlight that is because I think one of the things in mental health that
we talk so much about is we address one issue at a time. And for me, as I was coming out, I was facing
(05:44):
three pretty significant life changes at the same time and trying to navigate that. Yeah, transition
was not easy. And I think to your point earlier, it's kind of what fuels me to do a lot of the
work that I do today. I mean, it simply put, that's a lot. That's a lot for any person to
(06:04):
shoulder and then try to figure out what to do with it. So what was your process? What were you
thinking about? Like, okay, how am I going to deal with all this? Because that's just a lot, Randy,
and I think anybody would recognize that. So what were you thinking as to how to address all those
challenges sort of like all at one time? Yeah, I think one of the things that really
(06:26):
worked for me, I will say that I had an amazing VA system. I had some amazing family members who
I who are veterans and friends that had been through the system and kind of helped me a
little bit navigate that. I also just buried my head in school. It was for like a lot of veterans,
my GI bill was a way to pay bills for a little bit until I figured out what my next steps were.
(06:51):
And I found my next passion when I went back to school. So I didn't have a clear path. I just
put my head down and went to school for a little bit and along the way had some amazing, amazing
support. And I had a great mentor at one point that that told me that there was more to me than
(07:11):
what I had gone through and that I you know, there was more left for me to do. And so that really
spurred me to kind of move forward from there. I kind of love that. I love that. There's, there's
more to you than what you have been through. You know, we've seen that said other ways and other
ways. Another way is you don't let your circumstances define you. You don't let a
(07:33):
particular event define you. I think as we talk about resiliency and hope, that those are,
that's a very key concept and a very wise mentor you had to help you embrace that.
But let's get down Randy to what we really want to talk about in this episode. And that is,
(07:53):
you know, we tend to be male centric and we, when we talk about the veteran experience, not totally.
I get that. I don't want anybody to get mad at me and say, well, no, that's not true. But
that's my experience is that we tend to think of the male experience. It's like when dual military
veterans go to the VA and they talk to the male veteran and then want to just sort of not
(08:22):
acknowledge the fact that right next to that male veteran is a female veteran who may be experiencing
the similar challenges. So that's really a long way of saying what I'd like you to do is share with
from either your experience, your education. What are the specific challenges that our
women veterans face when transitioning out of the military?
(08:45):
Well, first, I really appreciate that you recognize that it's, we don't want to paint a broad brush.
This is a lot of females do experience some of these challenges, but some may not. And so it's
good to highlight that. One of the biggest ones, I think you, you touched on it just a little bit,
but this continual sense of having to justify our service or prove our service or whether it be
(09:12):
through systems that we're in, whether it's through the VA, whether it's through community partners,
and sometimes sadly it's our own fellow veterans that we feel like we have to
just recognize that we actually serve as well. A really good report came out, it came out last
year from the DAV and it highlighted the fact that when the average American thinks about a veteran,
(09:38):
they think about a male, that's who they envision. And then if they do envision that a female serves,
they generally think that they're in administrative, medical, legal fields,
which if you are that female veteran, that can absolutely minimize or her own experiences.
It can overlook much of what she may have done in the service. So I think that one is a really big
(10:03):
one. Another one that we really see a lot of is childcare. Our female veterans statistically are
more likely to have young children and also be the caregiver. And so we see a lot of barriers with
getting appropriate childcare. And there's also gender specific care. That's one that we
(10:29):
see a lot of challenges with. We know that the VA has made many improvements for women's services,
for female veteran services. But one of the challenges is having that same level of cultural
competency if they're referred out to the community. So using community care, that tends to be a barrier
as well. You touch on something I want to explore, may not be necessarily in order, but it doesn't
(10:54):
matter. It's our podcast. We can put it in whatever order we want. You mentioned the VA,
your experience with the VA. Neither one of us work for the VA. We aren't hacks for the VA. So
we get to speak from the heart on our VA experience. I'd like you to just share what your experience
has been with the services provided to you by the VA. Yeah, I will say that I've had extraordinary
(11:19):
care. I absolutely, like you said, I do not work for the VA. I never have. But my care has been
amazing. I feel that it is absolutely meets my needs. I was, as you know, I relocated this year
after spending about 15 years in San Diego, where there's a large VA system. And so I was a little
(11:43):
nervous moving to a more rural area. And I cannot be more happy with the services and
everything that is provided by our local VA. And I have other female veteran friends that, you know,
were scared at first to go to the VA. They had heard things and it wasn't, they didn't feel like
(12:05):
that was going to be a good fit for them. And they've tried it as well. And the one bit of advice,
I would say with that, you know, my experience is my experience at the VA. And again, it was good.
But if someone isn't having a good experience with their provider, you can always change providers.
You can always, I mean, I'll tell you as a clinician, sometimes that's not the right fit.
(12:30):
And you need to find a different clinician or doctor. And that's okay too.
Yeah. I want to emphasize that point. You don't, you don't need my emphasis, but I'm just going to
offer it here. I want everyone to think back to season one, episode one, when we had as our guest,
James Poling. He said exactly the same thing. And that is I gave the VA a try. I didn't like my
(12:53):
provider, but instead of just walking away from the VA, I decided to ask for another provider.
He received that provider and they clicked and it just worked. So I want, as we talk about actionable
solutions, I'd like our listeners to take that to heart that the first one doesn't work for you.
(13:14):
You just, you just keep pushing. You make the system respond to you because it is a system that
exists to serve you. Now, Randy, let's, let's, let's shift gears to justice involved women veterans.
And I'd like you to just to share your thoughts on, on some of the unique drivers of women in the
(13:37):
women in the, in the justice system. Sort of like what, what puts them there and what's unique
about the factors that put them there. I will caveat. This was saying this was never what I
intended to research. This was never, I, I very much saw myself as a female veteran as not being
(13:57):
any different than my male counterparts. And after about the last 12 years of working in veterans
courts and then doing the last three and a half years research, I really do see that there are
unique challenges that our justice involved females face and that need to be addressed. So
I think one of the big things that I saw not only in my research, but actually doing in the courts
(14:22):
is we saw that women statistically actually have higher rates of trauma, but not just trauma in the
military. So we think about isolated traumas that may have occurred in, in the military,
but our female veterans have higher rates of pre-military during the military and post-military
(14:43):
trauma. So they have extensive, many of them may have extensive trauma histories. That was something
we saw that was a little bit different than their male counterparts. We also saw a lot of relationship
issues that led them into the court issues that, and I'll give an example. One of the things we saw
a lot in San Diego was offenses that were involved with, with their partner, with their male partner.
(15:13):
And so we saw a lot of that. And then we saw a lot of financial issues that led them into actions
that ended them up in the court. So we saw a lot of things that the women were doing things either
financially to take care of their children, not meeting needs or other financial things that ended
them up in, in our court system. So this is what I'm about to ask you, what the lawyers would call
(15:39):
a leading question. But you'll know exactly what it's leading to. And to me, the system needs to
acknowledge the unique challenges of our women veterans and what could be done in the screening
process that would enable the system to recognize the challenge that that female veteran faces and
(16:05):
then the system deal with it. What can be done in the screening component?
Yeah. So I think one of the biggest things is when we need more to even get them to the screening
process. One of the things I found in my research is many times that we are female veterans weren't
even being identified before coming into this screening process. So we weren't even catching
(16:29):
them either at the jails, at arrest. So they were getting identified at much lower rates in the male
counterparts. So that's prior to even having the screening and assessment. So I would say with that
part, doing more targeted outreach and engagement specifically where to those justice involved
females may be. And then education on how to, you know, we talk a lot about how to ask the question.
(16:54):
How do we ask, have you ever served in the U S military and educating the people that are asking
those questions about our own implicit bias? I talked about earlier how we envision a male.
Many times we see that women aren't even getting asked those same questions. So some more training
around how to start asking those questions. And then once they are in the screening process and
(17:20):
the assessment, really looking at that whole person. And I know I sound very social worky saying that
because that's a big thing in social work, but absolutely looking at the whole person, what else
is impacting her in her ability to not only get in our court, but succeed in the veterans treatment
court. And so really looking at that whole person approach is important. You know, I think it's okay
(17:46):
with someone who has worked their tail off to get a doctorate in social work to sound social worky.
So I think you're okay there. Can we shift a little bit? Maybe I'm going backwards here. I don't know,
but I'm going to do it anyway. Because one thing I wanted to ask you is we talk about the education
(18:06):
process as we talk about sensitizing law enforcement community to unique challenges when
confronting a justice involved female veteran. What about in the healthcare world? Let's, I know
that your care is currently provided by a CBOC. Have you found the CBOCs sort of culturally
(18:27):
competent and for that matter, aware of the importance of gender specific care in dealing
with their female patients? I will tell you in my, so this is my personal experience with it. Yes,
absolutely. One of the amazing things I found when I came to the CBOC that I currently use
is representation. There was a picture and this sounds so simplistic, but there was
(18:51):
the marketing materials that were on the walls. The things that were on the walls were inclusive
of female veterans and I could actually see somebody, see myself in those pictures. And so
that sounds small, but it was a huge thing when I walked in. Also my, at the CBOC, I was able to,
they asked me right away, was my provider, am I okay with a male or female provider? What was
(19:16):
my preferences? What did I need? And I felt like they were really in tune to my needs.
And I would say across the board in the CBOCs and in the big VAs, I've seen more and more. I
think those are starting to increase. But as I had mentioned earlier, I think the challenge comes
(19:37):
more so when we step outside of that and we're going into the community to receive certain parts
of red care. I think that's also a challenge that we see. So I want to go into two more areas.
I could go into that, as I told you, as we sort of had our prep call, the challenge would be to
make this under two hours because there's just so much quality information that's so helpful here.
(20:02):
But let me go into two kind of final areas here. You've alluded to some of them, but I'd like to
get your sense of what, I'm going to do two things. First is sort of tell me what a comprehensive
approach looks like. And then we're going to wrap up with what's the takeaway? What does our listener
(20:24):
leave this podcast going, hey, Dr. McClain said this, and I'm taking that to heart. But before we
get to that, just give me your sense of what a comprehensive response is going to look like.
I'll always go back to, I think there needs to be more education. So I think from our law enforcement
all the way from arrest to reentry, there needs to be education around not only who the justice
(20:49):
involved veteran is, but specifically some of those nuances like a female veteran and how do
we address that? I think we have to, as an approach, we have to really do that whole person approach.
And one of the things I hadn't highlighted, I know we talked about it in our other call, but trust.
One of the biggest things that came out of my research was the minimized or lack of trust that
(21:15):
some of our female veterans have, not only in the system, but many times in their fellow veterans.
And so we have to have a mechanism to start rebuilding that trust and empowering these
women to regain control of their lives. So I think a whole person approach, building trust,
(21:36):
building resiliency is really, and then that education piece and that's education across the
board. And the last part I'll say about education, it's also educating our female veterans because
we are less likely to identify, because we're less likely to be identified, we will, we may not know
(21:57):
those resources that are available, right? If you don't know we're a veteran, how are we going to
know what is available? So I would say educating the women on what benefits they also are entitled to.
And as we talk about education, what I found really fascinating in talking to you and getting
to know you is your observations about the military structure within Veterans Treatment Courts.
(22:22):
You know, we all, that's certainly one of the assets of invaluable components of a Veterans
Treatment Court is a military structure. But there's sort of a unique twist to that when
you're talking about justice involved female veterans.
(22:42):
Absolutely. So as you kind of mentioned, Veterans Treatment Courts are very military, hyper
masculine focused, right? They very much mirror our military culture and our military structure,
which in a lot of ways is great. It really helps bring our veterans back to that place.
(23:03):
It helps instill some of those, remind them of some of those core values that we had.
But at times it can be absolutely traumatizing if for that and specifically I'm speaking about
the female veterans. But if they've endured trauma that they specifically tie to their
military service and then they go into a hyper military focused environment, it could inadvertently
(23:29):
re-traumatize them. They can, you know, many times, especially depending on their type of trauma,
if they're in an environment where they may be the only female in the courtroom, they may be the
only person and that includes staff. So we want to make sure when we talk about, we don't want to
(23:50):
inadvertently re-traumatize the participant, the veteran. And so I've seen across, you know,
looking at different courts, sometimes in meaning to help the veteran, they said, okay, well,
we're going to see them in separate dockets, which that can be negative in and of itself as well.
(24:10):
Right. So we don't want to separate them unless that is clinically indicated and that is what
the participant is okay with. So my point is we really want to know the participant and
understand. And part of that is leaning back into our treatment team, asking our treatment team,
(24:30):
you know, is there something that we need to know? Would it be better that maybe she's at the
beginning of the docket, you know, at least initially until she gets through some treatment
and, you know, then can reintegrate or is it better, you know, that she's at the end of the docket
or does it matter? And that really should be driven from our treatment team. We don't expect
(24:51):
our legal team to know that or understand that, but asking our treatment team, what is needed?
What do we need to know about each of the participants?
Yeah, I think that's really an interesting observation. I mean, I'm a lifelong learner
and fortunately I've had a long enough life to, as slow sometimes as I pick up on concepts,
(25:12):
I learn something every time I talk to one of our guests. And that to me was
a significant takeaway that don't just assume the military structure of the Veterans Treatment
Courts is going to work for everyone. And to the extent that the judge is not sure quite how to deal
with it, she can always just maintain flexibility and then rely on our beloved VJOs and treatment
(25:34):
providers to help the judge navigate this particular issue. Now, Randy, this is your
opportunity to sort of, at this point in the conversation, give our listeners their takeaways.
I'm going to let you talk as long and as varied as you would like, but I would just simply like,
(25:58):
you've talked about challenges, you've talked about the additional support required of some
of our justice-involved female veterans, you've talked about the importance of trust. What else
do you want to share with our listeners that they can, as they end this podcast, can feel like,
okay, okay, Randy, I got it. I know what I can do. So go ahead, Randy, just leave them with your
(26:20):
takeaways. Thank you very much. I think, so my first part, I would say to my fellow female veterans,
it is okay to ask for the additional supports that you may need. It doesn't in any way make you weak
or less than your male counterparts, but we do have unique challenges that need to be addressed.
(26:44):
And so for the female veterans that may be listening, it's okay to ask for that and to be
your advocate. I would also say to the fellow female veterans, get a mentor, get a, whether
you're justice-involved or just out in the, you know, a transitioning female veteran, get a mentor,
get somebody that you trust that can help you navigate this. You're not alone. So that's what
(27:08):
I would say to them. To our providers, of course, I talk more to the clinical team, but understanding
the whole person approach and really addressing those challenges, all that they may be facing,
and that they are different and that they're unique, even from their male counterparts and
(27:29):
other justice-involved females. There's layering there and they're different. And so addressing
that and really empowering these women at one point in their life served honorably and had a
sense of purpose. And that's what we want to restore them to. We want to get them back to a place
where they're able to, specifically our justice-involved, return back to a life that
(27:55):
they're proud of. And so really helping empower them and build resiliency within them, I think,
is so important. Randy, thanks so much. Our guest today in episode seven of our second season
has been Dr. Randy McLean-Malone. Clear commitment in this space, clear subject matter expertise,
(28:18):
providing really actionable solutions to the challenges faced by some of our female justice
involved veterans. So, Randy, my personal thanks and thanks from the team at Justice for Vets
for all you've do to improve the outcomes of all of our veterans and specifically our justice-involved
female veterans. Thank you very much, Randy. Thank you very much.
(28:43):
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast, when thank you is not enough. Hosted by retired major
general Butch Tait. This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Thanks for listening.
When the average American thinks about a veteran, they think about a male.
(00:04):
That's who they envision.
If you are that female veteran, that can absolutely minimize or her own experiences.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast, when Thank You is Not Enough,
hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
(00:30):
Welcome. This is Butch Tate, Chief Counsel for All Rise and Justice for Vets.
And I want to welcome you to episode seven of our podcast, when Thank You is Not Enough.
As you've heard me say time and again, I'm always grateful and was certainly grateful
when I was on active duty, when someone would see me in the airport and thank me for my service.
(00:51):
And I appreciated that. But as all of us know, we're at this point where Thank You is simply
not enough to address the unique challenges of our veteran population.
This podcast focuses instead on resiliency and hope and providing actionable solutions
to address the critical issues facing our veterans.
(01:12):
And as you'll see from our guest today, that's exactly what we intend to do.
And that is provide actionable solutions to talk about references, resources,
to talk about resiliency and hope.
Our guest today is Dr. Randy McLean Malone, Navy veteran, doctorate in social work,
(01:33):
member of the faculty for Justice for Vets and a licensed clinical social worker.
She'll address the unique challenges and needs of our female justice involved veterans.
So Randy McLean, welcome to the podcast.
Randy McLean Good morning. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Randy McLean Now we all know that Randy is not a newcomer to this space.
(01:55):
And so I look forward to what I'm going to learn from her about the challenges faced by our female
veterans. She has an extraordinary career, academic training, experience, recognition
twice as the San Diego County's veteran of the year in 2014 and 2021, and so much more.
(02:18):
And all that is certainly important and serves as the basis for some of the comments she'll make
today. In fact, probably all the comments she'll make today, but we'll post her bio.
You can learn more about her, but I want to get right into it with Randy.
So we can deliver what we promised we would deliver, which are actionable solutions,
(02:38):
resources and references. So Randy, as I've already said, you are a Navy veteran.
You are married to a retired veteran. And what other military service runs in your family?
Randy McLean Yeah, so my family is I have a long history of military in my family.
(02:59):
My grandfather's both served. I also have several uncles. My older brother served ahead of me.
And yeah, and several cousins, a handful of cousins. So big military family for sure.
Yeah. And again, I think that too fuels your passion for what you do for our
(03:19):
current generation of veterans. Tell us, I've alluded to the fact that you are a Navy veteran.
You know, what led you to serve in the Navy and what did you take away from your Navy experience?
Yeah, I will admit I was not military was not what I thought about when I grew up.
I always wanted to be a police officer. I always wanted to be in law enforcement.
(03:42):
My brother, as I mentioned earlier, went two years ahead of me into the military.
And I went off to college and started a career in law enforcement. And then a little thing called
9-11 happened. And that kind of changed the trajectory of my life. And I joined the Navy and
right at the end of 2001. And how many years did you serve, Randy?
(04:05):
I got out at the end of 2009. So just under eight.
So you know, as we've all experienced, the military makes it pretty easy to get into the military,
right? You just before you know what you're in, and it's time to learn left from right.
But let's talk instead about not so much how you got in or why you got in, but your experience
transitioning out of the military, because that can sometimes be sort of the line of demarcation,
(04:32):
if you will, that starts creating challenges for all of us as we leave behind that community of
brothers and sisters. So talk about your experience, please, of transitioning out of the military.
Yeah, absolutely. So my transition, you know, at the time, I thought it was very unique.
Now with years of experience, I realized that this is probably something a lot of our veterans face.
(04:58):
But when I was getting out, I ended up being med boarded. So I was injured in 2007 and had
multiple surgeries and went through the medical process. The Navy came back and said, well,
you're either going to separate or you're going to separate and we'll pay you. So I got separated.
(05:19):
I had compounded that with at the same time, I was going through some personal challenges of
leaving a divorce marriage. And so I was facing a divorce and had some personal loss in my family.
So the reason why I highlight that is because I think one of the things in mental health that
we talk so much about is we address one issue at a time. And for me, as I was coming out, I was facing
(05:44):
three pretty significant life changes at the same time and trying to navigate that. Yeah, transition
was not easy. And I think to your point earlier, it's kind of what fuels me to do a lot of the
work that I do today. I mean, it simply put, that's a lot. That's a lot for any person to
(06:04):
shoulder and then try to figure out what to do with it. So what was your process? What were you
thinking about? Like, okay, how am I going to deal with all this? Because that's just a lot, Randy,
and I think anybody would recognize that. So what were you thinking as to how to address all those
challenges sort of like all at one time? Yeah, I think one of the things that really
(06:26):
worked for me, I will say that I had an amazing VA system. I had some amazing family members who
I who are veterans and friends that had been through the system and kind of helped me a
little bit navigate that. I also just buried my head in school. It was for like a lot of veterans,
my GI bill was a way to pay bills for a little bit until I figured out what my next steps were.
(06:51):
And I found my next passion when I went back to school. So I didn't have a clear path. I just
put my head down and went to school for a little bit and along the way had some amazing, amazing
support. And I had a great mentor at one point that that told me that there was more to me than
(07:11):
what I had gone through and that I you know, there was more left for me to do. And so that really
spurred me to kind of move forward from there. I kind of love that. I love that. There's, there's
more to you than what you have been through. You know, we've seen that said other ways and other
ways. Another way is you don't let your circumstances define you. You don't let a
(07:33):
particular event define you. I think as we talk about resiliency and hope, that those are,
that's a very key concept and a very wise mentor you had to help you embrace that.
But let's get down Randy to what we really want to talk about in this episode. And that is,
(07:53):
you know, we tend to be male centric and we, when we talk about the veteran experience, not totally.
I get that. I don't want anybody to get mad at me and say, well, no, that's not true. But
that's my experience is that we tend to think of the male experience. It's like when dual military
veterans go to the VA and they talk to the male veteran and then want to just sort of not
(08:22):
acknowledge the fact that right next to that male veteran is a female veteran who may be experiencing
the similar challenges. So that's really a long way of saying what I'd like you to do is share with
from either your experience, your education. What are the specific challenges that our
women veterans face when transitioning out of the military?
(08:45):
Well, first, I really appreciate that you recognize that it's, we don't want to paint a broad brush.
This is a lot of females do experience some of these challenges, but some may not. And so it's
good to highlight that. One of the biggest ones, I think you, you touched on it just a little bit,
but this continual sense of having to justify our service or prove our service or whether it be
(09:12):
through systems that we're in, whether it's through the VA, whether it's through community partners,
and sometimes sadly it's our own fellow veterans that we feel like we have to
just recognize that we actually serve as well. A really good report came out, it came out last
year from the DAV and it highlighted the fact that when the average American thinks about a veteran,
(09:38):
they think about a male, that's who they envision. And then if they do envision that a female serves,
they generally think that they're in administrative, medical, legal fields,
which if you are that female veteran, that can absolutely minimize or her own experiences.
It can overlook much of what she may have done in the service. So I think that one is a really big
(10:03):
one. Another one that we really see a lot of is childcare. Our female veterans statistically are
more likely to have young children and also be the caregiver. And so we see a lot of barriers with
getting appropriate childcare. And there's also gender specific care. That's one that we
(10:29):
see a lot of challenges with. We know that the VA has made many improvements for women's services,
for female veteran services. But one of the challenges is having that same level of cultural
competency if they're referred out to the community. So using community care, that tends to be a barrier
as well. You touch on something I want to explore, may not be necessarily in order, but it doesn't
(10:54):
matter. It's our podcast. We can put it in whatever order we want. You mentioned the VA,
your experience with the VA. Neither one of us work for the VA. We aren't hacks for the VA. So
we get to speak from the heart on our VA experience. I'd like you to just share what your experience
has been with the services provided to you by the VA. Yeah, I will say that I've had extraordinary
(11:19):
care. I absolutely, like you said, I do not work for the VA. I never have. But my care has been
amazing. I feel that it is absolutely meets my needs. I was, as you know, I relocated this year
after spending about 15 years in San Diego, where there's a large VA system. And so I was a little
(11:43):
nervous moving to a more rural area. And I cannot be more happy with the services and
everything that is provided by our local VA. And I have other female veteran friends that, you know,
were scared at first to go to the VA. They had heard things and it wasn't, they didn't feel like
(12:05):
that was going to be a good fit for them. And they've tried it as well. And the one bit of advice,
I would say with that, you know, my experience is my experience at the VA. And again, it was good.
But if someone isn't having a good experience with their provider, you can always change providers.
You can always, I mean, I'll tell you as a clinician, sometimes that's not the right fit.
(12:30):
And you need to find a different clinician or doctor. And that's okay too.
Yeah. I want to emphasize that point. You don't, you don't need my emphasis, but I'm just going to
offer it here. I want everyone to think back to season one, episode one, when we had as our guest,
James Poling. He said exactly the same thing. And that is I gave the VA a try. I didn't like my
(12:53):
provider, but instead of just walking away from the VA, I decided to ask for another provider.
He received that provider and they clicked and it just worked. So I want, as we talk about actionable
solutions, I'd like our listeners to take that to heart that the first one doesn't work for you.
(13:14):
You just, you just keep pushing. You make the system respond to you because it is a system that
exists to serve you. Now, Randy, let's, let's, let's shift gears to justice involved women veterans.
And I'd like you to just to share your thoughts on, on some of the unique drivers of women in the
(13:37):
women in the, in the justice system. Sort of like what, what puts them there and what's unique
about the factors that put them there. I will caveat. This was saying this was never what I
intended to research. This was never, I, I very much saw myself as a female veteran as not being
(13:57):
any different than my male counterparts. And after about the last 12 years of working in veterans
courts and then doing the last three and a half years research, I really do see that there are
unique challenges that our justice involved females face and that need to be addressed. So
I think one of the big things that I saw not only in my research, but actually doing in the courts
(14:22):
is we saw that women statistically actually have higher rates of trauma, but not just trauma in the
military. So we think about isolated traumas that may have occurred in, in the military,
but our female veterans have higher rates of pre-military during the military and post-military
(14:43):
trauma. So they have extensive, many of them may have extensive trauma histories. That was something
we saw that was a little bit different than their male counterparts. We also saw a lot of relationship
issues that led them into the court issues that, and I'll give an example. One of the things we saw
a lot in San Diego was offenses that were involved with, with their partner, with their male partner.
(15:13):
And so we saw a lot of that. And then we saw a lot of financial issues that led them into actions
that ended them up in the court. So we saw a lot of things that the women were doing things either
financially to take care of their children, not meeting needs or other financial things that ended
them up in, in our court system. So this is what I'm about to ask you, what the lawyers would call
(15:39):
a leading question. But you'll know exactly what it's leading to. And to me, the system needs to
acknowledge the unique challenges of our women veterans and what could be done in the screening
process that would enable the system to recognize the challenge that that female veteran faces and
(16:05):
then the system deal with it. What can be done in the screening component?
Yeah. So I think one of the biggest things is when we need more to even get them to the screening
process. One of the things I found in my research is many times that we are female veterans weren't
even being identified before coming into this screening process. So we weren't even catching
(16:29):
them either at the jails, at arrest. So they were getting identified at much lower rates in the male
counterparts. So that's prior to even having the screening and assessment. So I would say with that
part, doing more targeted outreach and engagement specifically where to those justice involved
females may be. And then education on how to, you know, we talk a lot about how to ask the question.
(16:54):
How do we ask, have you ever served in the U S military and educating the people that are asking
those questions about our own implicit bias? I talked about earlier how we envision a male.
Many times we see that women aren't even getting asked those same questions. So some more training
around how to start asking those questions. And then once they are in the screening process and
(17:20):
the assessment, really looking at that whole person. And I know I sound very social worky saying that
because that's a big thing in social work, but absolutely looking at the whole person, what else
is impacting her in her ability to not only get in our court, but succeed in the veterans treatment
court. And so really looking at that whole person approach is important. You know, I think it's okay
(17:46):
with someone who has worked their tail off to get a doctorate in social work to sound social worky.
So I think you're okay there. Can we shift a little bit? Maybe I'm going backwards here. I don't know,
but I'm going to do it anyway. Because one thing I wanted to ask you is we talk about the education
(18:06):
process as we talk about sensitizing law enforcement community to unique challenges when
confronting a justice involved female veteran. What about in the healthcare world? Let's, I know
that your care is currently provided by a CBOC. Have you found the CBOCs sort of culturally
(18:27):
competent and for that matter, aware of the importance of gender specific care in dealing
with their female patients? I will tell you in my, so this is my personal experience with it. Yes,
absolutely. One of the amazing things I found when I came to the CBOC that I currently use
is representation. There was a picture and this sounds so simplistic, but there was
(18:51):
the marketing materials that were on the walls. The things that were on the walls were inclusive
of female veterans and I could actually see somebody, see myself in those pictures. And so
that sounds small, but it was a huge thing when I walked in. Also my, at the CBOC, I was able to,
they asked me right away, was my provider, am I okay with a male or female provider? What was
(19:16):
my preferences? What did I need? And I felt like they were really in tune to my needs.
And I would say across the board in the CBOCs and in the big VAs, I've seen more and more. I
think those are starting to increase. But as I had mentioned earlier, I think the challenge comes
(19:37):
more so when we step outside of that and we're going into the community to receive certain parts
of red care. I think that's also a challenge that we see. So I want to go into two more areas.
I could go into that, as I told you, as we sort of had our prep call, the challenge would be to
make this under two hours because there's just so much quality information that's so helpful here.
(20:02):
But let me go into two kind of final areas here. You've alluded to some of them, but I'd like to
get your sense of what, I'm going to do two things. First is sort of tell me what a comprehensive
approach looks like. And then we're going to wrap up with what's the takeaway? What does our listener
(20:24):
leave this podcast going, hey, Dr. McClain said this, and I'm taking that to heart. But before we
get to that, just give me your sense of what a comprehensive response is going to look like.
I'll always go back to, I think there needs to be more education. So I think from our law enforcement
all the way from arrest to reentry, there needs to be education around not only who the justice
(20:49):
involved veteran is, but specifically some of those nuances like a female veteran and how do
we address that? I think we have to, as an approach, we have to really do that whole person approach.
And one of the things I hadn't highlighted, I know we talked about it in our other call, but trust.
One of the biggest things that came out of my research was the minimized or lack of trust that
(21:15):
some of our female veterans have, not only in the system, but many times in their fellow veterans.
And so we have to have a mechanism to start rebuilding that trust and empowering these
women to regain control of their lives. So I think a whole person approach, building trust,
(21:36):
building resiliency is really, and then that education piece and that's education across the
board. And the last part I'll say about education, it's also educating our female veterans because
we are less likely to identify, because we're less likely to be identified, we will, we may not know
(21:57):
those resources that are available, right? If you don't know we're a veteran, how are we going to
know what is available? So I would say educating the women on what benefits they also are entitled to.
And as we talk about education, what I found really fascinating in talking to you and getting
to know you is your observations about the military structure within Veterans Treatment Courts.
(22:22):
You know, we all, that's certainly one of the assets of invaluable components of a Veterans
Treatment Court is a military structure. But there's sort of a unique twist to that when
you're talking about justice involved female veterans.
(22:42):
Absolutely. So as you kind of mentioned, Veterans Treatment Courts are very military, hyper
masculine focused, right? They very much mirror our military culture and our military structure,
which in a lot of ways is great. It really helps bring our veterans back to that place.
(23:03):
It helps instill some of those, remind them of some of those core values that we had.
But at times it can be absolutely traumatizing if for that and specifically I'm speaking about
the female veterans. But if they've endured trauma that they specifically tie to their
military service and then they go into a hyper military focused environment, it could inadvertently
(23:29):
re-traumatize them. They can, you know, many times, especially depending on their type of trauma,
if they're in an environment where they may be the only female in the courtroom, they may be the
only person and that includes staff. So we want to make sure when we talk about, we don't want to
(23:50):
inadvertently re-traumatize the participant, the veteran. And so I've seen across, you know,
looking at different courts, sometimes in meaning to help the veteran, they said, okay, well,
we're going to see them in separate dockets, which that can be negative in and of itself as well.
(24:10):
Right. So we don't want to separate them unless that is clinically indicated and that is what
the participant is okay with. So my point is we really want to know the participant and
understand. And part of that is leaning back into our treatment team, asking our treatment team,
(24:30):
you know, is there something that we need to know? Would it be better that maybe she's at the
beginning of the docket, you know, at least initially until she gets through some treatment
and, you know, then can reintegrate or is it better, you know, that she's at the end of the docket
or does it matter? And that really should be driven from our treatment team. We don't expect
(24:51):
our legal team to know that or understand that, but asking our treatment team, what is needed?
What do we need to know about each of the participants?
Yeah, I think that's really an interesting observation. I mean, I'm a lifelong learner
and fortunately I've had a long enough life to, as slow sometimes as I pick up on concepts,
(25:12):
I learn something every time I talk to one of our guests. And that to me was
a significant takeaway that don't just assume the military structure of the Veterans Treatment
Courts is going to work for everyone. And to the extent that the judge is not sure quite how to deal
with it, she can always just maintain flexibility and then rely on our beloved VJOs and treatment
(25:34):
providers to help the judge navigate this particular issue. Now, Randy, this is your
opportunity to sort of, at this point in the conversation, give our listeners their takeaways.
I'm going to let you talk as long and as varied as you would like, but I would just simply like,
(25:58):
you've talked about challenges, you've talked about the additional support required of some
of our justice-involved female veterans, you've talked about the importance of trust. What else
do you want to share with our listeners that they can, as they end this podcast, can feel like,
okay, okay, Randy, I got it. I know what I can do. So go ahead, Randy, just leave them with your
(26:20):
takeaways. Thank you very much. I think, so my first part, I would say to my fellow female veterans,
it is okay to ask for the additional supports that you may need. It doesn't in any way make you weak
or less than your male counterparts, but we do have unique challenges that need to be addressed.
(26:44):
And so for the female veterans that may be listening, it's okay to ask for that and to be
your advocate. I would also say to the fellow female veterans, get a mentor, get a, whether
you're justice-involved or just out in the, you know, a transitioning female veteran, get a mentor,
get somebody that you trust that can help you navigate this. You're not alone. So that's what
(27:08):
I would say to them. To our providers, of course, I talk more to the clinical team, but understanding
the whole person approach and really addressing those challenges, all that they may be facing,
and that they are different and that they're unique, even from their male counterparts and
(27:29):
other justice-involved females. There's layering there and they're different. And so addressing
that and really empowering these women at one point in their life served honorably and had a
sense of purpose. And that's what we want to restore them to. We want to get them back to a place
where they're able to, specifically our justice-involved, return back to a life that
(27:55):
they're proud of. And so really helping empower them and build resiliency within them, I think,
is so important. Randy, thanks so much. Our guest today in episode seven of our second season
has been Dr. Randy McLean-Malone. Clear commitment in this space, clear subject matter expertise,
(28:18):
providing really actionable solutions to the challenges faced by some of our female justice
involved veterans. So, Randy, my personal thanks and thanks from the team at Justice for Vets
for all you've do to improve the outcomes of all of our veterans and specifically our justice-involved
female veterans. Thank you very much, Randy. Thank you very much.
(28:43):
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast, when thank you is not enough. Hosted by retired major
general Butch Tait. This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Thanks for listening.
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