June 19, 2023 • 16 mins
"So our primary goal is to maintain peace in the community and to repair breaches of that peace. So when there's an offense against an individual or an offense that threatens the community in any way, we go into problem solving mode and we try to do that in a just and fair way."
Season 1 concludes with a discussion with Montgomery County, Texas First Assistant District Attorney Mike Holley. Mike talks about his philosophy as a prosecutor and why he believes veterans treatment court and other interventions for veterans are the honorable approach to serving those who served us.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
If you have an individual, they've not had any criminal conduct or not any substantial
(00:04):
criminal conduct, they enter military service and something in that service causes a challenge
to their psyche, to their physical status, whatever it is that then leads to criminal
conduct.
What we're saying is we're recognizing that, but for your service, you wouldn't be in our
system.
And given that, we are going to apply this set of tools that we think may help you and
(00:28):
it's essentially a debt of gratitude and it's the honorable thing.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when Thank You is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate, his podcast is made possible with funding
from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Hi, this is Butch Tate and welcome to our podcast today, Justice for Vets when Thank
(00:53):
You is not enough.
Our guest today is Mr. Mike Holly, who is the first assistant district attorney for the
county of Montgomery County, Texas.
Full transparency, I happen to know Mike.
Mike and I served together in Iraq.
Mike was an army lawyer like me and I assure you that he is the best lawyer that I know,
(01:19):
but even more, there's a lot of smart lawyers which really to me are just unimpressive.
But I will tell you what Mike is and that is one of the finest gentlemen that anyone
will ever want to meet.
Now none of that is a guarantee he'll be any good today on this podcast, but I'm willing
to take that bet and see how things go.
(01:42):
But I wanted Mike to talk to us about his role as a prosecutor down in Texas, but also
as a prosecutor who is involved in the Veterans Treatment Court in Montgomery County.
So Mike, welcome to the podcast and we appreciate your time and your willingness to be with
us today.
Thank you, sir.
I'm very, very glad to be here.
(02:02):
To the extent you mean that, it's great.
But honestly, I think you know the importance of what we're about to talk about and the
importance especially to the listeners who will, after this conversation, I hope have
a better understanding how this Veterans Treatment Court process works.
But let's start just generally about your role as a prosecutor.
(02:23):
How would you describe your philosophy, your approach to being a prosecutor?
Yes, sir.
So our primary goal is to maintain peace in the community and to repair breaches of that
piece.
So when there's an offense against an individual or an offense that threatens the community
(02:43):
in any way, we go into problem solving mode and we try to do that and adjust in a fair
way.
And it's a challenge.
We always repair those problems as completely as effectively or as quickly as we'd like
to, but we do our best.
And again, it's particularly important to us that we do it fairly so that when others
(03:03):
observe our work, although they may not agree with every outcome, they see that we're making
a good faith effort to do the right thing the right way.
Is that role any different when we're talking about Veterans Treatment Court?
No, sir, Veterans Treatment Court is a special program in the sense that we get a new set
(03:24):
of tools and there is a different underlying logic to our problem solving, but it's the
same role.
We ultimately are trying to restore peace to the community.
We're trying to restore that veteran back to his friends, his family, his life.
So I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Judge Russell in an earlier episode of this
podcast.
(03:44):
I mean, let's face it, this is a criminal court.
I have gotten cross-rised with the law.
I find myself facing criminal charges.
How can this... But the lawyer says I can get into Veterans Treatment Court.
The prosecutors let me in, but it's still a criminal court.
How can this be a good thing?
Why has someone given this opportunity?
(04:05):
Why should I even begin to think that this is going to be okay for me?
So an individual who finds himself in the criminal justice system is often faced with
a series of options.
None of them are ideal and none of them are their choosing.
Veterans Treatment Court is an option that's sometimes unexpected and I get that some folks
might be a little distrustful.
(04:27):
But the objective here is to say, okay, we have a particular situation.
It's not the norm.
There is an opportunity and there's a path to go forward in which we can restore peace
to the community.
We can restore this individual and we can do it in a fair manner.
A whole set of tools that are not always available for a particular class of defendants that
(04:49):
we believe and again, we can talk about the logic of this, which is important, but we
believe they deserve this special consideration and they're going to be the subject to this
extra time and effort and worthy ones.
So I get the slight distrust, but it sets us into a different type of problem solving
(05:09):
that we found to be very effective when the veteran is willing to meet us halfway or even
part way.
Yeah, as you know, I'm an Army brat.
My dad served 36 plus years, combat veteran twice over.
His reaction when I told him what I did for a living was, well, why are we treating these
(05:32):
vets any differently?
Why are we giving them just a free pass, a get over?
So not to be too pointed, but from looking at it from his perspective, how do you justify
this different treatment for veterans in cases where someone who commits a criminal act or
(05:52):
alleged to have committed a criminal act who's not a veteran may not get the same system
of treatment?
How do you justify that?
Yes, sir.
I'm going to speak specifically for our county, different areas of the country, different areas
of the state, frankly, do this in a different way.
But I will give you kind of our reasoning here.
It starts with this idea that just because you're a veteran doesn't mean you get a passive
(06:16):
criminal conduct.
That's the start point.
Secondly, we recognize that service to your country should get a second look in terms of
what's happening in your life and maybe a different approach.
And then third, this is where we start to draw some distinctions.
Again, the logic in our county is this.
(06:40):
If you have an individual, they've not had any criminal conduct or not any substantial
criminal conduct, they enter military service and something in that service causes a challenge
to their psyche, to their physical status, whatever it is that then leads to criminal
conduct.
What we're saying is we're recognizing that, but for your service, you wouldn't be in our
(07:02):
system.
And given that, we are going to apply this set of tools that we think may help you.
And it's essentially a debt of gratitude, and it's the honorable thing.
And so to maybe come full circle, not every veteran in our county comes into Veterans
Treatment Court.
That's the fact that your veteran doesn't let you commit offenses with impunity.
(07:26):
But if you're a veteran that follows those set of circumstances, there is now a whole
set of problem solving skills and assets and resources that will bring to bear.
And by the way, when the veteran gets to the end of this process, he or she will have earned
every bit of it.
Every honor, every legal liability that's removed, it's not a gift.
(07:51):
They will have earned it.
And it's hard work.
Now, Mike, as impressive as you are, and I say that not at all tongue in cheek, you
must have surrounded yourself with a talented team as we've established in previous episodes
of this podcast.
This is a team effort.
It is a number of professions brought together, all aiming at the success of the veteran.
(08:16):
But how would you describe, first of all, I think my assumption is correct about the
quality of the team you have.
But how would you describe there what they hope to see as the end of state, the outcome
for the veteran in your court?
Yes, sir.
And it's an opportunity, by the way, to give it honor or honors due to our presiding judge,
(08:40):
the wonderful Judge Kathleen Hamilton.
And just as an aside, sir, she's the perfect example of this idea that you don't have to
be a veteran to be a leader or to be involved in veterans treatment court.
I know across the country, their staff, their judges, their lawyers on both sides that are
not veterans.
That is not a disqualifying feature at all.
(09:03):
Judge Hamilton is fantastic in that role, has never served in the military.
And I have a chief prosecutor in our office named Mike Shirley, who does tremendous work
in this, stays late.
Every week stays late with veterans to work with them closely.
But we as a team are hoping for one thing, which is, again, to restore that individual
(09:24):
back to their family, back to their friends, get them to the self they want to be.
And we'll do that with a number of steps through counseling, through coaching, and importantly
through accountability.
And that accountability is provided by the whole system, the team working as a team.
(09:45):
And I think every veteran, regardless of their service, they understand that.
They understand that there are standards, and that standards have to be met.
And when standards can't be met, you work to obtain those.
And you don't cheat on those.
And you work until you get there.
And so we are working with these veterans, wherever they are, whatever part of their
life, whatever struggle they have, and the challenges, there's no one size fits all by
(10:08):
any means.
It's just as every individual is unique, their problems and challenges are unique.
But we're working with those, and we're addressing them one by one, sometimes in batches, often
with setbacks, which we can talk about.
But we're working toward getting them to the place where they're back with us.
Thanks, Mike.
You mentioned setbacks.
(10:28):
I think that's really important.
We have learned through our previous discussions here that that's going to happen.
I don't know if it's appropriate to say that we expect failure, but that's the reality.
I'm not a clinician, but I'm comfortable saying that we expect failures as our veterans journey
along through our court process.
(10:49):
What do you say to that veteran, either listening now or perhaps in your court, that has stumbled
and they don't know what's going to come next?
What do you say to them?
Yes, sir.
In our previous discussions, I phrased it.
I was thinking about this as we expect them to have setbacks.
I thought about that more.
(11:10):
We expect them to succeed.
We are not surprised when there are setbacks because that is just the nature of the problems
that we deal with.
We're sometimes disappointed, but we're not surprised.
We're not overwhelmed by that.
We know that a person working in a hard problem is going to have challenges.
It's not going to be always forward momentum.
(11:34):
In the analogy of a long rock march, as long as you continue to try to put one foot in front
of the other, you may have to sit and take a breather, but get back up and just take
one step in front of the other, even if it's just the half foot.
If it's just the incremental movement, as long as a veteran is moving forward, willing
(11:55):
to receive help, and that's our great threshold challenge, sir.
I know you know about this, is convincing a veteran to make the effort, convincing
a veteran to trust enough to start this road march together.
As long as they're trying to move forward, we will go to tremendous lengths.
We will undergo those challenges with them.
(12:16):
We'll do whatever it takes to get them there.
As long as we're continuing to move forward.
I've got a final question for you, but before I get to that, I like how you reframe the
discussion, reframed the way we should look at this, which is not so much that we expect
failures, because that's why I was a little uncomfortable when I said that, because it
sounded, well, just kind of mean.
But to say you expect them to succeed, but you're not surprised by the setbacks.
(12:40):
Boy, that's to me, I'm going to start using that first of all and take full credit for
it.
I think importantly, it really is the right way to frame this discussion.
So thanks for doing that, Mike.
One final question.
We strive to put a veteran's treatment court within reach of every veteran in need.
(13:01):
We want to ensure we sustain this model for the future.
Any thoughts on how we can ensure that veteran treatment courts continue as a viable model
in our justice system, and also how do we, what could we do to ensure that a veteran's
treatment court is in reach of every eligible veteran in need?
(13:23):
Any thoughts on that for us?
Yes, sir.
Most counties in the country are, in terms of numbers, are small, tend to be rural.
And in smaller counties, it's difficult to put together the resources sometimes to create
a veteran's treatment court.
We have found that veteran's treatment court works best when you have a particular number,
(13:46):
a set number.
It's difficult to do it with one or two veterans.
And I think this is true across the services, all of us who have served understand the unit.
And so whether it's a fire team, a squad, a platoon, a company, whatever that is, having
your fellow brother and sister veterans beside you, being accountable to them, you being
(14:09):
accountable to you helps, so you need a little mass there.
And again, that's difficult in a smaller county.
So one thing that can be done is to do that on a regional basis, have one county be the
focal point, and then surrounding counties contribute their veterans to that program.
We do that very effectively, I think, here in Montgomery County, where some of the smaller
(14:31):
counties send us folks.
We run about 30 to 40 veterans generally on average, and that seems to work well.
And I would also say, sir, that this is just a tremendous willingness and hunger to help
veterans across the system.
I don't, it's one of the few things I think that in the criminal justice system, everyone
agrees on if there is a way to help veterans, if there is a logic that lets us do this in
(14:55):
a fair fashion, if we can apply the resources, many of which are just out there waiting to
be used.
If we can channel all that, focus all that, it's an incredibly effective, rewarding program.
And so it's just a matter of willingness.
Some prosecutor out there, a judge with this interest, a defense attorney, seeing great
things from the defense bar, just championing veterans and pushing things.
(15:20):
It's just a matter of talking to one another and making it happen.
Thanks, Mike.
I want to thank Mike Holly from Montgomery County, Texas, which I think is outside of
Houston. I know you're awfully busy, but to give us your time and insights, I greatly
appreciate.
And we will continue what we do at Justice for Vets to enable men and women like you
(15:42):
to do their part to provide a justice system uniquely tailored to the needs of our veterans.
So thanks again, Mike Holly.
We appreciate it.
Yes, sir.
Good to be with you, sir.
Good to be with you.
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
(16:03):
This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Thanks for listening.
If you have an individual, they've not had any criminal conduct or not any substantial
(00:04):
criminal conduct, they enter military service and something in that service causes a challenge
to their psyche, to their physical status, whatever it is that then leads to criminal
conduct.
What we're saying is we're recognizing that, but for your service, you wouldn't be in our
system.
And given that, we are going to apply this set of tools that we think may help you and
(00:28):
it's essentially a debt of gratitude and it's the honorable thing.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when Thank You is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate, his podcast is made possible with funding
from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Hi, this is Butch Tate and welcome to our podcast today, Justice for Vets when Thank
(00:53):
You is not enough.
Our guest today is Mr. Mike Holly, who is the first assistant district attorney for the
county of Montgomery County, Texas.
Full transparency, I happen to know Mike.
Mike and I served together in Iraq.
Mike was an army lawyer like me and I assure you that he is the best lawyer that I know,
(01:19):
but even more, there's a lot of smart lawyers which really to me are just unimpressive.
But I will tell you what Mike is and that is one of the finest gentlemen that anyone
will ever want to meet.
Now none of that is a guarantee he'll be any good today on this podcast, but I'm willing
to take that bet and see how things go.
(01:42):
But I wanted Mike to talk to us about his role as a prosecutor down in Texas, but also
as a prosecutor who is involved in the Veterans Treatment Court in Montgomery County.
So Mike, welcome to the podcast and we appreciate your time and your willingness to be with
us today.
Thank you, sir.
I'm very, very glad to be here.
(02:02):
To the extent you mean that, it's great.
But honestly, I think you know the importance of what we're about to talk about and the
importance especially to the listeners who will, after this conversation, I hope have
a better understanding how this Veterans Treatment Court process works.
But let's start just generally about your role as a prosecutor.
(02:23):
How would you describe your philosophy, your approach to being a prosecutor?
Yes, sir.
So our primary goal is to maintain peace in the community and to repair breaches of that
piece.
So when there's an offense against an individual or an offense that threatens the community
(02:43):
in any way, we go into problem solving mode and we try to do that and adjust in a fair
way.
And it's a challenge.
We always repair those problems as completely as effectively or as quickly as we'd like
to, but we do our best.
And again, it's particularly important to us that we do it fairly so that when others
(03:03):
observe our work, although they may not agree with every outcome, they see that we're making
a good faith effort to do the right thing the right way.
Is that role any different when we're talking about Veterans Treatment Court?
No, sir, Veterans Treatment Court is a special program in the sense that we get a new set
(03:24):
of tools and there is a different underlying logic to our problem solving, but it's the
same role.
We ultimately are trying to restore peace to the community.
We're trying to restore that veteran back to his friends, his family, his life.
So I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Judge Russell in an earlier episode of this
podcast.
(03:44):
I mean, let's face it, this is a criminal court.
I have gotten cross-rised with the law.
I find myself facing criminal charges.
How can this... But the lawyer says I can get into Veterans Treatment Court.
The prosecutors let me in, but it's still a criminal court.
How can this be a good thing?
Why has someone given this opportunity?
(04:05):
Why should I even begin to think that this is going to be okay for me?
So an individual who finds himself in the criminal justice system is often faced with
a series of options.
None of them are ideal and none of them are their choosing.
Veterans Treatment Court is an option that's sometimes unexpected and I get that some folks
might be a little distrustful.
(04:27):
But the objective here is to say, okay, we have a particular situation.
It's not the norm.
There is an opportunity and there's a path to go forward in which we can restore peace
to the community.
We can restore this individual and we can do it in a fair manner.
A whole set of tools that are not always available for a particular class of defendants that
(04:49):
we believe and again, we can talk about the logic of this, which is important, but we
believe they deserve this special consideration and they're going to be the subject to this
extra time and effort and worthy ones.
So I get the slight distrust, but it sets us into a different type of problem solving
(05:09):
that we found to be very effective when the veteran is willing to meet us halfway or even
part way.
Yeah, as you know, I'm an Army brat.
My dad served 36 plus years, combat veteran twice over.
His reaction when I told him what I did for a living was, well, why are we treating these
(05:32):
vets any differently?
Why are we giving them just a free pass, a get over?
So not to be too pointed, but from looking at it from his perspective, how do you justify
this different treatment for veterans in cases where someone who commits a criminal act or
(05:52):
alleged to have committed a criminal act who's not a veteran may not get the same system
of treatment?
How do you justify that?
Yes, sir.
I'm going to speak specifically for our county, different areas of the country, different areas
of the state, frankly, do this in a different way.
But I will give you kind of our reasoning here.
It starts with this idea that just because you're a veteran doesn't mean you get a passive
(06:16):
criminal conduct.
That's the start point.
Secondly, we recognize that service to your country should get a second look in terms of
what's happening in your life and maybe a different approach.
And then third, this is where we start to draw some distinctions.
Again, the logic in our county is this.
(06:40):
If you have an individual, they've not had any criminal conduct or not any substantial
criminal conduct, they enter military service and something in that service causes a challenge
to their psyche, to their physical status, whatever it is that then leads to criminal
conduct.
What we're saying is we're recognizing that, but for your service, you wouldn't be in our
(07:02):
system.
And given that, we are going to apply this set of tools that we think may help you.
And it's essentially a debt of gratitude, and it's the honorable thing.
And so to maybe come full circle, not every veteran in our county comes into Veterans
Treatment Court.
That's the fact that your veteran doesn't let you commit offenses with impunity.
(07:26):
But if you're a veteran that follows those set of circumstances, there is now a whole
set of problem solving skills and assets and resources that will bring to bear.
And by the way, when the veteran gets to the end of this process, he or she will have earned
every bit of it.
Every honor, every legal liability that's removed, it's not a gift.
(07:51):
They will have earned it.
And it's hard work.
Now, Mike, as impressive as you are, and I say that not at all tongue in cheek, you
must have surrounded yourself with a talented team as we've established in previous episodes
of this podcast.
This is a team effort.
It is a number of professions brought together, all aiming at the success of the veteran.
(08:16):
But how would you describe, first of all, I think my assumption is correct about the
quality of the team you have.
But how would you describe there what they hope to see as the end of state, the outcome
for the veteran in your court?
Yes, sir.
And it's an opportunity, by the way, to give it honor or honors due to our presiding judge,
(08:40):
the wonderful Judge Kathleen Hamilton.
And just as an aside, sir, she's the perfect example of this idea that you don't have to
be a veteran to be a leader or to be involved in veterans treatment court.
I know across the country, their staff, their judges, their lawyers on both sides that are
not veterans.
That is not a disqualifying feature at all.
(09:03):
Judge Hamilton is fantastic in that role, has never served in the military.
And I have a chief prosecutor in our office named Mike Shirley, who does tremendous work
in this, stays late.
Every week stays late with veterans to work with them closely.
But we as a team are hoping for one thing, which is, again, to restore that individual
(09:24):
back to their family, back to their friends, get them to the self they want to be.
And we'll do that with a number of steps through counseling, through coaching, and importantly
through accountability.
And that accountability is provided by the whole system, the team working as a team.
(09:45):
And I think every veteran, regardless of their service, they understand that.
They understand that there are standards, and that standards have to be met.
And when standards can't be met, you work to obtain those.
And you don't cheat on those.
And you work until you get there.
And so we are working with these veterans, wherever they are, whatever part of their
life, whatever struggle they have, and the challenges, there's no one size fits all by
(10:08):
any means.
It's just as every individual is unique, their problems and challenges are unique.
But we're working with those, and we're addressing them one by one, sometimes in batches, often
with setbacks, which we can talk about.
But we're working toward getting them to the place where they're back with us.
Thanks, Mike.
You mentioned setbacks.
(10:28):
I think that's really important.
We have learned through our previous discussions here that that's going to happen.
I don't know if it's appropriate to say that we expect failure, but that's the reality.
I'm not a clinician, but I'm comfortable saying that we expect failures as our veterans journey
along through our court process.
(10:49):
What do you say to that veteran, either listening now or perhaps in your court, that has stumbled
and they don't know what's going to come next?
What do you say to them?
Yes, sir.
In our previous discussions, I phrased it.
I was thinking about this as we expect them to have setbacks.
I thought about that more.
(11:10):
We expect them to succeed.
We are not surprised when there are setbacks because that is just the nature of the problems
that we deal with.
We're sometimes disappointed, but we're not surprised.
We're not overwhelmed by that.
We know that a person working in a hard problem is going to have challenges.
It's not going to be always forward momentum.
(11:34):
In the analogy of a long rock march, as long as you continue to try to put one foot in front
of the other, you may have to sit and take a breather, but get back up and just take
one step in front of the other, even if it's just the half foot.
If it's just the incremental movement, as long as a veteran is moving forward, willing
(11:55):
to receive help, and that's our great threshold challenge, sir.
I know you know about this, is convincing a veteran to make the effort, convincing
a veteran to trust enough to start this road march together.
As long as they're trying to move forward, we will go to tremendous lengths.
We will undergo those challenges with them.
(12:16):
We'll do whatever it takes to get them there.
As long as we're continuing to move forward.
I've got a final question for you, but before I get to that, I like how you reframe the
discussion, reframed the way we should look at this, which is not so much that we expect
failures, because that's why I was a little uncomfortable when I said that, because it
sounded, well, just kind of mean.
But to say you expect them to succeed, but you're not surprised by the setbacks.
(12:40):
Boy, that's to me, I'm going to start using that first of all and take full credit for
it.
I think importantly, it really is the right way to frame this discussion.
So thanks for doing that, Mike.
One final question.
We strive to put a veteran's treatment court within reach of every veteran in need.
(13:01):
We want to ensure we sustain this model for the future.
Any thoughts on how we can ensure that veteran treatment courts continue as a viable model
in our justice system, and also how do we, what could we do to ensure that a veteran's
treatment court is in reach of every eligible veteran in need?
(13:23):
Any thoughts on that for us?
Yes, sir.
Most counties in the country are, in terms of numbers, are small, tend to be rural.
And in smaller counties, it's difficult to put together the resources sometimes to create
a veteran's treatment court.
We have found that veteran's treatment court works best when you have a particular number,
(13:46):
a set number.
It's difficult to do it with one or two veterans.
And I think this is true across the services, all of us who have served understand the unit.
And so whether it's a fire team, a squad, a platoon, a company, whatever that is, having
your fellow brother and sister veterans beside you, being accountable to them, you being
(14:09):
accountable to you helps, so you need a little mass there.
And again, that's difficult in a smaller county.
So one thing that can be done is to do that on a regional basis, have one county be the
focal point, and then surrounding counties contribute their veterans to that program.
We do that very effectively, I think, here in Montgomery County, where some of the smaller
(14:31):
counties send us folks.
We run about 30 to 40 veterans generally on average, and that seems to work well.
And I would also say, sir, that this is just a tremendous willingness and hunger to help
veterans across the system.
I don't, it's one of the few things I think that in the criminal justice system, everyone
agrees on if there is a way to help veterans, if there is a logic that lets us do this in
(14:55):
a fair fashion, if we can apply the resources, many of which are just out there waiting to
be used.
If we can channel all that, focus all that, it's an incredibly effective, rewarding program.
And so it's just a matter of willingness.
Some prosecutor out there, a judge with this interest, a defense attorney, seeing great
things from the defense bar, just championing veterans and pushing things.
(15:20):
It's just a matter of talking to one another and making it happen.
Thanks, Mike.
I want to thank Mike Holly from Montgomery County, Texas, which I think is outside of
Houston. I know you're awfully busy, but to give us your time and insights, I greatly
appreciate.
And we will continue what we do at Justice for Vets to enable men and women like you
(15:42):
to do their part to provide a justice system uniquely tailored to the needs of our veterans.
So thanks again, Mike Holly.
We appreciate it.
Yes, sir.
Good to be with you, sir.
Good to be with you.
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
(16:03):
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