May 27, 2023 • 24 mins
“VTCs [veterans treatment courts] are critical to veterans because many of them I have found are ashamed that they are defendants in criminal courts. They have committed crimes against the very society they have sworn to protect, and it’s a long, hard fall from grace. These veterans really need our help.”
After seeing the success of Kansas’ only veterans treatment court, Kansas Chief Justice Lawton Nuss made the decision to retire early from the bench and devote his time to traveling the state and building support for more programs. In the penultimate episode of season 1, he and Butch discuss what led to this decision, his work to help jurisdictions in Kansas increase access to treatment for veterans, and why he believes these programs will continue to expand.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
VTCs are critical to veterans because many of them I have found are ashamed that they
(00:07):
are defendants in a criminal court.
They committed crimes against the very society that they had sworn to protect.
And it's a long, hard fall from grace.
And these veterans really need our help.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when Thank You is not enough.
(00:30):
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate, his podcast is made possible with funding
from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Greetings this is Butch Tate, Justice for Vets and the National Association of Drug Court
Professionals.
And welcome to this session of our podcast, Justice for Vets when Thank You is not enough.
(00:54):
We've had a tremendous ride, so to speak, on this path discussing veterans treatment
courts.
You know, we began with a discussion of trauma resilience where we had our veteran James
Polling discussing the impact of his battlefield experiences on him.
We followed that up with a discussion with James Puckett, Professor of Psychology at
(01:20):
the University of Wisconsin and Licensed Counselor, who helped us better get arms around the issue
of veteran trauma.
Then we went on and talked about sort of living our shared experience where we had a discussion
with John Borsler, who is the Chief Veterans Experience Office for the VA.
And what I wanted you to recall from that discussion is his sort of catchphrase that
(01:44):
if you haven't used the VA in the last 10 years, you haven't used the VA and its services.
Good discussion there, complimented by Laura Felton, who's the Director of the Milwaukee
Veterans Center.
And today we're going to take what may be sort of where we're headed all along on this
(02:05):
thing and that is once we get these courts up and running, once we know we can sustain
them, you know, kind of what's next.
It has to happen to continue to fulfill the need of our veterans and provide them access
to and the benefits of a veteran's treatment court.
And so to that end, to the end of discussion addressing the need, I'm really pleased to
(02:30):
have as our guest today, former Chief Justice of the Kansas Supreme Court, Lawton Nuss.
Now, let me just tell you right up front, Lawton and I are friends.
We've known each other since our law school days.
He's part of my ever shrinking circle of friends.
But that's not why I have him here today.
I have him here today because he has done sort of as his second professional chapter.
(02:56):
He stepped forward and become an advocate for veterans treatment courts, not just in the
state of Kansas, but nationwide.
And I'll just tell you, he is a good dude at the right time taking on this task of expanding
veterans treatment courts, informing the public, but importantly, helping jurisdictions put
(03:17):
in courts that enable increased access to them by our veterans.
So I'd like to, you know, I gave him kind of a good intro.
It wasn't great.
He certainly deserves better, but I'm going to ask him to just talk a little bit about
his background.
So those of you that are listening know where he comes from and why he is motivated to do
(03:38):
what he does.
So I'm pleased to have Latin us on the line and Latin, if you could please just share
with our listeners a little bit about your background, your service and potentially discuss
your family's service in the military.
So welcome and it's all you, Latin.
Thank you, butch.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's my pleasure to help out with veterans treatment courts issues.
(04:04):
I was in Naval ROTC for four years at the University of Kansas.
I got commissioned in the United States Marine Corps in January of 1975.
I spent four years in the Marine Corps primarily as a combat engineering officer.
I deployed twice to the Western Pacific.
(04:26):
My father was a veteran.
My middle son is a veteran.
All four of my uncles were veterans.
None of us however made the military a career.
Thanks, Latin.
Now I'm not going to ask you about your tenure as the Chief Justice of the Kansas Supreme
Corps.
Let me just suffice to say that's kind of a big deal.
But what I think is most impressive is the length of your tenure as the Chief.
(04:49):
So how long did you serve as Chief Justice?
It was 10 years as Chief Justice.
So I'm going to start calling you Chief because again, I want everyone to appreciate that the
position you held is one of tremendous significance to not only the court system but the rule
of law in general.
So Chief, here's my first question to you.
And when you retired from the bench, what made it motivated you to select veteran treatment
(05:16):
courts as part of your next professional chapter?
Well, much about 10 years ago at our law school reunion, you may recall that you approached
me about the possibility of starting VTCs in Kansas.
And at that time, I was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Kansas.
I was working about 70 hours a week.
(05:39):
And I told you that I felt your project was very worthy, but I simply did not have the
time or the resources to take it on.
The first VTC in Kansas was in our most populous county, Johnson County, and it basically developed
on its own in 2015 with my encouragement, but not much of my help.
(06:05):
And then after seeing its success, I became more and more interested in that work.
And I wanted to devote more time to VTCs, but I couldn't do that and be Chief Justice.
So I retired with three years left on my six-year term as Chief Justice so I could concentrate
(06:25):
on VTCs.
And as I said, Kansas still only had one VTC at that time.
And we're grateful for those efforts.
I think we always have to get a sense of where we came from to the point that we are now.
It really helps you appreciate the present.
And I remember sort of slogging my way across the state, starting, of course, with you to
(06:48):
start the conversation.
And I think we should all be grateful that you listened to that conversation.
You took it to heart.
And when the time was right, you helped move forward in getting those courts up and running.
But I think really importantly, not getting in the way.
I think that was very, very helpful.
Even though your schedule was such that it just wasn't room for it, you certainly did
(07:11):
nothing to, let's just say, inhibit the growth of courts in Kansas.
And that's kind of what I want to turn to now.
You can be as specific as you want.
But just tell us about what you've done in the state of Kansas.
And then after you finish that, I'll probably have some questions about what you did, what
you are doing nationwide to further the cause.
(07:32):
I wanted to do a how-to webinar about creating VTCs.
And my successor as Chief Justice, Marla Lueckert, agreed with me.
So about a year after I had retired in 2020, we developed a four-stage webinar.
(07:52):
And we were inviting Kansans, as well as personnel from the eight states that at that time did
not have any VTCs, such as North Dakota and Vermont, invited them to participate.
And I had two of my law school classmates speak at that webinar, you, General Tate, and US
(08:13):
Senator Jerry Moran, who at that time, I believe, was chair of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee.
Since that webinar, we have opened a VTC in Wyandotte County, which is a suburb of Kansas
City.
In January of 2023, next month, we'll open a VTC in our second most populous county,
(08:37):
which is Sedgwick.
It's County seat is Wichita.
So a VTC in the county that contains our state capital, Shawnee, and then the county that
contains Fort Leavenworth County.
And then in 2023, a VTC will open in my hometown of Salina.
(08:58):
I'm working hard right now to try to get a VTC started in Douglas County, which is the
home of our alma mater, the University of Kansas Law School.
I spoke there just before Thanksgiving to try to encourage their efforts.
I'm working on Dodge City in Western Kansas.
And I currently am serving as the unpaid judicial branch liaison for specialty courts until
(09:25):
they can get a coordinator hired.
So like me, you've discovered that once you retire, there's a lot of folks who want your
services, especially if they can get them for free.
So we respect that and appreciate that.
And this has been a journey.
I remember those first meetings, Roman Estate of Kansas, where there just didn't seem to
(09:50):
be a lot of enthusiasm for Veterans Treatment Courts.
There was the sense that why should they get a break that no one else is getting?
Why are they special?
And of course, we all have answers to those.
We've been able to answer the questions, your webinar series answered those questions.
So I would count those as challenges that can certainly be overcome and should not at
(10:18):
all discourage others from walking this path.
But let me just ask you a kind of a candid question here.
As the former chief justice, some doors were likely open for you that the rest of us may
not have or at least not have right out of the gate because you're going to be able to
(10:39):
get an audience just by who you are and who you were.
So what about others?
What about others who haven't sort of been in a position like that?
What are your thoughts to them on how they do what they can do to advocate for the expansion
of Veterans Treatment Courts?
(11:00):
It contained in your question, I believe, is these advocates already want to be advocates.
They are believers in the system.
They just need some encouragement or some advice on how to proceed.
So what I would say is asking people to remember that when people join the military, they took
(11:23):
an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies,
born and domestic.
And to put that another way, they willingly accepted the risk that they could die to protect
you and me.
And as a result, VTCs are critical to Veterans because many of them I have found are ashamed
(11:50):
that they are defendants in a criminal court.
They committed crimes against the very society that they had sworn to protect.
And it's a long, hard fall from grace.
And it's longer and harder than civilians in drug courts, mental health courts, behavioral
(12:11):
health courts, other problem solving courts.
And these Veterans really need our help.
As one author put it, a doctor who had studied PTSD, the painful paradox is that fighting
for one's country can render one unfit to be its citizen.
(12:38):
And I would ask our advocates to remember that VTCs have proven to be the most effective
way to rehabilitate our Veteran defendants, to restore them as contributing members both
of society and of their families.
And the VTCs are most effective because their structure embraces the unique military culture
(13:02):
that can aid in the rehabilitation process that uses fellow Veterans as mentors to the
Veterans and that utilizes the VA's extensive medical care and services.
And one thing that you and I have talked about before, Butch, is that the VTC help does not
(13:23):
stop with the Veterans graduation from the VTC mentors and others remain supportive.
I can attest to that.
I've been supportive of a Veteran who graduated about four years ago.
And just like in the military, once you graduate from basic training, the military doesn't
(13:45):
say, okay, you're on your own, go wherever you want, do whatever you want to do.
The VTCs do not do that either.
If an issue arises that the Graduate is looking for employment, the mentor and others help
with that.
If that Veteran is having housing issues, there's help for that.
(14:06):
If there are some domestic issues, sometimes the mentor and others, and in particular the
VA can help with that as well.
So I think that's a very important characteristic.
I cannot speak to other specialty courts, drug courts, behavioral health courts, etc.
They may offer that long time of services provided to their defendants who are graduating,
(14:32):
but I certainly know that for VTCs that is the case.
And so those are all points I would emphasize to people who want to advocate further to
try to get more VTCs established in this country.
Thanks, Chief.
Now you know that I'm an advocate for these courts demonstrating fidelity to the model,
to the Veterans Treatment Court model.
(14:55):
Best practices, recognizing that treatment is the engine, the use of mentors, training,
just like what Veteran doesn't understand the value of training, accountability, public
safety, etc.
All of those things that make these courts effective and improve outcomes for our Veterans.
(15:16):
Because if you don't have that fidelity to the model, what you have is a treatment court
or you have a court with Veterans, which is not what we're trying to achieve.
We're trying to achieve a Veterans Treatment Court.
So how about sharing any thoughts you might have on fidelity to the model as we work to
not just increase, but to sustain access to the Veterans Treatment Courts?
(15:41):
What do you think?
Well, let me start my answer by saying that a few months before I retired from the Supreme
Court, I went to Denver for a drug court seminar put on by the National Association of Drug
Court Professionals.
And a number of the speakers during that day or two days emphasized that just calling yourself
(16:07):
a drug court does not make you a drug court.
And certainly the same thing holds true for VTCs.
And the Uniform Law Commission of Chicago agrees with that.
As you know, Butch, it has authored the Model Veterans Treatment Court Act.
(16:28):
And while the commission admittedly had drafted it with the idea that it can be easily modified
to fit different jurisdictions, the commission also urges certain critical elements be retained.
The first one is, as you're very well aware, the 10 key components of drug courts from
(16:50):
the National Association of Drug Court Professionals.
And the Uniform Law Commission says that these, quote, are evidence-based, scientifically
validated principles, which are industry best practices, and they should not be substantively
altered, unquote.
And they go on to borrow your language, which is these components should be faithfully adhered
(17:14):
to.
The second thing I've mentioned is, about this model act, it too urges the use of veteran
mentors.
They've been described as the secret sauce of VTCs.
And according to my readings, Butch, that description comes from you.
(17:35):
And I've heard that mentioned around the country.
They seem to know the source, but I finally tracked it down.
That's what seven years of higher education will do for you.
Come up with clever terms like secret sauce.
But I appreciate that, and I really believe it.
And the secret sauce used to veteran mentors is one of the fundamental differences between
(17:57):
VTCs and, again, other problem-solving courts, such as drug courts, mental health courts,
et cetera.
The third thing I would mention about the model act in response to your question is, it is
intentionally titled the Treatment Court Act.
And they're emphasizing the need to treat the ailments that plague the veteran defendant
(18:22):
and often have contributed to his or her commission of the crime.
And those ailments, of course, can be such things as PTSD, TBI, substance use disorder,
solitary sexual trauma, et cetera.
So treatment of that underlying disorder is critical to rehabilitation.
(18:45):
And as you and I have discussed, I wrote a law review article about the model act that
was published last spring.
You're kind enough to read through it for me and make some suggestions before it got
published.
But that was more answers to your question can be found in that linklier article where
(19:05):
it goes into more detail.
That's the University of Missouri at Kansas City Law School.
So, Chief, I'm going to ask you one more question, because I know I'm going to get a bill from
you for this session we're having here.
And first of all, just listening to you reminds me why our class rankings were so different.
And I'll just leave it at that.
But why don't you sort of help us wrap this up by addressing this open-ended question
(19:29):
of what do we, the collective we, advocates, judges, et cetera, need to do next to ensure
not just the increased access to Veterans Treatment Court by every veteran who is eligible, but
also how do we sustain these courts?
So they're not just a good idea.
Thank you for your service.
Here's a T-shirt.
(19:51):
And then over time, they aren't sustained.
So what are your thoughts on what we need to do next?
You and I have grown up in the legal system, first law school, then lawyers.
And then I was on the Supreme Court and you grow to the rank of Major General in the Army,
(20:12):
Advocate General Court.
And that profession insists on give me the data, prove your case, and then I will draw
conclusions from that.
And if I think you've proved your case, then I'm going to grant judgment for you.
And similarly, I think that's something that advocates for BTCs need to do.
(20:39):
I think it's important to collect our data to find how many people in a particular jurisdiction
are in jail and who have military service.
Because a lot of people say, oh, we don't have any problems like that in our jurisdiction.
Anybody who has committed a crime, they can't possibly be a defendant who is a veteran.
(21:05):
It's also important, as you and I have discussed, to collect data on graduation rates from our
VTCs.
It's also important to collect data on low recidivism rates from our VTCs.
And to show how effective it is economically not to put the veteran in jail where he or
(21:30):
she cannot work and earn any income and therefore pay any income taxes or buy any goods and
services and pay taxes on that.
And if the veteran is married, the spouse may have to put herself or himself on welfare
to try to provide for the family.
So that's a further drain on the economy.
(21:53):
In Wyandotte County, Kansas, it costs, I think, $34,000 a year to incarcerate somebody.
So if you don't incarcerate them, you have all those savings and then you're rehabilitating
them so they never have to come back through the system.
And they're not time and time again using up the judges' resources and time, the probation
(22:16):
officers' resource and time, the prosecutors, the defense counsel, the jailers, the officers
who are arresting that person time and time again.
And you're at the end of that pipeline, if you will, you have somebody who's contributing
to society and contributing to his or her family.
(22:36):
And there's a huge price on the family to be paid if the veteran is in jail and is not
at home looking after kids and showing them the correct path to adulthood.
Because if they don't have that guidance, then the kids follow dad's example.
And they wind up in trouble with the law.
(22:59):
My wife had been a probation officer for 20 years and she was regarded by some people
as the, quote, family probation officer, unquote, because she had mom and dad on probation
at one time and then later she had the kids.
And you just want to end that cycle.
So for a lot of different reasons, economic, sociological, and the fact that it's just
(23:23):
the right thing to do to help our veterans, I think those are things that we can emphasize
going forward on why we not only need to keep what we have, but also enhance the current
ones and also to create more.
Because I know there are many veterans out there who still need these services and they
just don't live in jurisdictions that provide them.
(23:44):
Thanks, chief.
Chief, let me just say you never disappoint.
Whether it's a personal conversation that I'm having with you about these veterans'
treatment courts or certainly today.
And on behalf of Justice for Vets and, of course, a personal thanks for me, we appreciate
your time.
We appreciate your insights.
And you demonstrate how this is a community willing to share with others, lessons learned,
(24:08):
the experiences so that we continue on the path that we are on.
So again, on behalf of everyone at Justice for Vets, on behalf of our listeners and certainly
me, thanks for your time.
We look forward to your continued support for this really, really important cause for
our veterans.
So thanks again, chief.
Thank you, but just been my pleasure.
(24:29):
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Thanks for listening.
VTCs are critical to veterans because many of them I have found are ashamed that they
(00:07):
are defendants in a criminal court.
They committed crimes against the very society that they had sworn to protect.
And it's a long, hard fall from grace.
And these veterans really need our help.
You're listening to the Justice for Vets podcast when Thank You is not enough.
(00:30):
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate, his podcast is made possible with funding
from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Greetings this is Butch Tate, Justice for Vets and the National Association of Drug Court
Professionals.
And welcome to this session of our podcast, Justice for Vets when Thank You is not enough.
(00:54):
We've had a tremendous ride, so to speak, on this path discussing veterans treatment
courts.
You know, we began with a discussion of trauma resilience where we had our veteran James
Polling discussing the impact of his battlefield experiences on him.
We followed that up with a discussion with James Puckett, Professor of Psychology at
(01:20):
the University of Wisconsin and Licensed Counselor, who helped us better get arms around the issue
of veteran trauma.
Then we went on and talked about sort of living our shared experience where we had a discussion
with John Borsler, who is the Chief Veterans Experience Office for the VA.
And what I wanted you to recall from that discussion is his sort of catchphrase that
(01:44):
if you haven't used the VA in the last 10 years, you haven't used the VA and its services.
Good discussion there, complimented by Laura Felton, who's the Director of the Milwaukee
Veterans Center.
And today we're going to take what may be sort of where we're headed all along on this
(02:05):
thing and that is once we get these courts up and running, once we know we can sustain
them, you know, kind of what's next.
It has to happen to continue to fulfill the need of our veterans and provide them access
to and the benefits of a veteran's treatment court.
And so to that end, to the end of discussion addressing the need, I'm really pleased to
(02:30):
have as our guest today, former Chief Justice of the Kansas Supreme Court, Lawton Nuss.
Now, let me just tell you right up front, Lawton and I are friends.
We've known each other since our law school days.
He's part of my ever shrinking circle of friends.
But that's not why I have him here today.
I have him here today because he has done sort of as his second professional chapter.
(02:56):
He stepped forward and become an advocate for veterans treatment courts, not just in the
state of Kansas, but nationwide.
And I'll just tell you, he is a good dude at the right time taking on this task of expanding
veterans treatment courts, informing the public, but importantly, helping jurisdictions put
(03:17):
in courts that enable increased access to them by our veterans.
So I'd like to, you know, I gave him kind of a good intro.
It wasn't great.
He certainly deserves better, but I'm going to ask him to just talk a little bit about
his background.
So those of you that are listening know where he comes from and why he is motivated to do
(03:38):
what he does.
So I'm pleased to have Latin us on the line and Latin, if you could please just share
with our listeners a little bit about your background, your service and potentially discuss
your family's service in the military.
So welcome and it's all you, Latin.
Thank you, butch.
Thank you for inviting me.
It's my pleasure to help out with veterans treatment courts issues.
(04:04):
I was in Naval ROTC for four years at the University of Kansas.
I got commissioned in the United States Marine Corps in January of 1975.
I spent four years in the Marine Corps primarily as a combat engineering officer.
I deployed twice to the Western Pacific.
(04:26):
My father was a veteran.
My middle son is a veteran.
All four of my uncles were veterans.
None of us however made the military a career.
Thanks, Latin.
Now I'm not going to ask you about your tenure as the Chief Justice of the Kansas Supreme
Corps.
Let me just suffice to say that's kind of a big deal.
But what I think is most impressive is the length of your tenure as the Chief.
(04:49):
So how long did you serve as Chief Justice?
It was 10 years as Chief Justice.
So I'm going to start calling you Chief because again, I want everyone to appreciate that the
position you held is one of tremendous significance to not only the court system but the rule
of law in general.
So Chief, here's my first question to you.
And when you retired from the bench, what made it motivated you to select veteran treatment
(05:16):
courts as part of your next professional chapter?
Well, much about 10 years ago at our law school reunion, you may recall that you approached
me about the possibility of starting VTCs in Kansas.
And at that time, I was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Kansas.
I was working about 70 hours a week.
(05:39):
And I told you that I felt your project was very worthy, but I simply did not have the
time or the resources to take it on.
The first VTC in Kansas was in our most populous county, Johnson County, and it basically developed
on its own in 2015 with my encouragement, but not much of my help.
(06:05):
And then after seeing its success, I became more and more interested in that work.
And I wanted to devote more time to VTCs, but I couldn't do that and be Chief Justice.
So I retired with three years left on my six-year term as Chief Justice so I could concentrate
(06:25):
on VTCs.
And as I said, Kansas still only had one VTC at that time.
And we're grateful for those efforts.
I think we always have to get a sense of where we came from to the point that we are now.
It really helps you appreciate the present.
And I remember sort of slogging my way across the state, starting, of course, with you to
(06:48):
start the conversation.
And I think we should all be grateful that you listened to that conversation.
You took it to heart.
And when the time was right, you helped move forward in getting those courts up and running.
But I think really importantly, not getting in the way.
I think that was very, very helpful.
Even though your schedule was such that it just wasn't room for it, you certainly did
(07:11):
nothing to, let's just say, inhibit the growth of courts in Kansas.
And that's kind of what I want to turn to now.
You can be as specific as you want.
But just tell us about what you've done in the state of Kansas.
And then after you finish that, I'll probably have some questions about what you did, what
you are doing nationwide to further the cause.
(07:32):
I wanted to do a how-to webinar about creating VTCs.
And my successor as Chief Justice, Marla Lueckert, agreed with me.
So about a year after I had retired in 2020, we developed a four-stage webinar.
(07:52):
And we were inviting Kansans, as well as personnel from the eight states that at that time did
not have any VTCs, such as North Dakota and Vermont, invited them to participate.
And I had two of my law school classmates speak at that webinar, you, General Tate, and US
(08:13):
Senator Jerry Moran, who at that time, I believe, was chair of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee.
Since that webinar, we have opened a VTC in Wyandotte County, which is a suburb of Kansas
City.
In January of 2023, next month, we'll open a VTC in our second most populous county,
(08:37):
which is Sedgwick.
It's County seat is Wichita.
So a VTC in the county that contains our state capital, Shawnee, and then the county that
contains Fort Leavenworth County.
And then in 2023, a VTC will open in my hometown of Salina.
(08:58):
I'm working hard right now to try to get a VTC started in Douglas County, which is the
home of our alma mater, the University of Kansas Law School.
I spoke there just before Thanksgiving to try to encourage their efforts.
I'm working on Dodge City in Western Kansas.
And I currently am serving as the unpaid judicial branch liaison for specialty courts until
(09:25):
they can get a coordinator hired.
So like me, you've discovered that once you retire, there's a lot of folks who want your
services, especially if they can get them for free.
So we respect that and appreciate that.
And this has been a journey.
I remember those first meetings, Roman Estate of Kansas, where there just didn't seem to
(09:50):
be a lot of enthusiasm for Veterans Treatment Courts.
There was the sense that why should they get a break that no one else is getting?
Why are they special?
And of course, we all have answers to those.
We've been able to answer the questions, your webinar series answered those questions.
So I would count those as challenges that can certainly be overcome and should not at
(10:18):
all discourage others from walking this path.
But let me just ask you a kind of a candid question here.
As the former chief justice, some doors were likely open for you that the rest of us may
not have or at least not have right out of the gate because you're going to be able to
(10:39):
get an audience just by who you are and who you were.
So what about others?
What about others who haven't sort of been in a position like that?
What are your thoughts to them on how they do what they can do to advocate for the expansion
of Veterans Treatment Courts?
(11:00):
It contained in your question, I believe, is these advocates already want to be advocates.
They are believers in the system.
They just need some encouragement or some advice on how to proceed.
So what I would say is asking people to remember that when people join the military, they took
(11:23):
an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies,
born and domestic.
And to put that another way, they willingly accepted the risk that they could die to protect
you and me.
And as a result, VTCs are critical to Veterans because many of them I have found are ashamed
(11:50):
that they are defendants in a criminal court.
They committed crimes against the very society that they had sworn to protect.
And it's a long, hard fall from grace.
And it's longer and harder than civilians in drug courts, mental health courts, behavioral
(12:11):
health courts, other problem solving courts.
And these Veterans really need our help.
As one author put it, a doctor who had studied PTSD, the painful paradox is that fighting
for one's country can render one unfit to be its citizen.
(12:38):
And I would ask our advocates to remember that VTCs have proven to be the most effective
way to rehabilitate our Veteran defendants, to restore them as contributing members both
of society and of their families.
And the VTCs are most effective because their structure embraces the unique military culture
(13:02):
that can aid in the rehabilitation process that uses fellow Veterans as mentors to the
Veterans and that utilizes the VA's extensive medical care and services.
And one thing that you and I have talked about before, Butch, is that the VTC help does not
(13:23):
stop with the Veterans graduation from the VTC mentors and others remain supportive.
I can attest to that.
I've been supportive of a Veteran who graduated about four years ago.
And just like in the military, once you graduate from basic training, the military doesn't
(13:45):
say, okay, you're on your own, go wherever you want, do whatever you want to do.
The VTCs do not do that either.
If an issue arises that the Graduate is looking for employment, the mentor and others help
with that.
If that Veteran is having housing issues, there's help for that.
(14:06):
If there are some domestic issues, sometimes the mentor and others, and in particular the
VA can help with that as well.
So I think that's a very important characteristic.
I cannot speak to other specialty courts, drug courts, behavioral health courts, etc.
They may offer that long time of services provided to their defendants who are graduating,
(14:32):
but I certainly know that for VTCs that is the case.
And so those are all points I would emphasize to people who want to advocate further to
try to get more VTCs established in this country.
Thanks, Chief.
Now you know that I'm an advocate for these courts demonstrating fidelity to the model,
to the Veterans Treatment Court model.
(14:55):
Best practices, recognizing that treatment is the engine, the use of mentors, training,
just like what Veteran doesn't understand the value of training, accountability, public
safety, etc.
All of those things that make these courts effective and improve outcomes for our Veterans.
(15:16):
Because if you don't have that fidelity to the model, what you have is a treatment court
or you have a court with Veterans, which is not what we're trying to achieve.
We're trying to achieve a Veterans Treatment Court.
So how about sharing any thoughts you might have on fidelity to the model as we work to
not just increase, but to sustain access to the Veterans Treatment Courts?
(15:41):
What do you think?
Well, let me start my answer by saying that a few months before I retired from the Supreme
Court, I went to Denver for a drug court seminar put on by the National Association of Drug
Court Professionals.
And a number of the speakers during that day or two days emphasized that just calling yourself
(16:07):
a drug court does not make you a drug court.
And certainly the same thing holds true for VTCs.
And the Uniform Law Commission of Chicago agrees with that.
As you know, Butch, it has authored the Model Veterans Treatment Court Act.
(16:28):
And while the commission admittedly had drafted it with the idea that it can be easily modified
to fit different jurisdictions, the commission also urges certain critical elements be retained.
The first one is, as you're very well aware, the 10 key components of drug courts from
(16:50):
the National Association of Drug Court Professionals.
And the Uniform Law Commission says that these, quote, are evidence-based, scientifically
validated principles, which are industry best practices, and they should not be substantively
altered, unquote.
And they go on to borrow your language, which is these components should be faithfully adhered
(17:14):
to.
The second thing I've mentioned is, about this model act, it too urges the use of veteran
mentors.
They've been described as the secret sauce of VTCs.
And according to my readings, Butch, that description comes from you.
(17:35):
And I've heard that mentioned around the country.
They seem to know the source, but I finally tracked it down.
That's what seven years of higher education will do for you.
Come up with clever terms like secret sauce.
But I appreciate that, and I really believe it.
And the secret sauce used to veteran mentors is one of the fundamental differences between
(17:57):
VTCs and, again, other problem-solving courts, such as drug courts, mental health courts,
et cetera.
The third thing I would mention about the model act in response to your question is, it is
intentionally titled the Treatment Court Act.
And they're emphasizing the need to treat the ailments that plague the veteran defendant
(18:22):
and often have contributed to his or her commission of the crime.
And those ailments, of course, can be such things as PTSD, TBI, substance use disorder,
solitary sexual trauma, et cetera.
So treatment of that underlying disorder is critical to rehabilitation.
(18:45):
And as you and I have discussed, I wrote a law review article about the model act that
was published last spring.
You're kind enough to read through it for me and make some suggestions before it got
published.
But that was more answers to your question can be found in that linklier article where
(19:05):
it goes into more detail.
That's the University of Missouri at Kansas City Law School.
So, Chief, I'm going to ask you one more question, because I know I'm going to get a bill from
you for this session we're having here.
And first of all, just listening to you reminds me why our class rankings were so different.
And I'll just leave it at that.
But why don't you sort of help us wrap this up by addressing this open-ended question
(19:29):
of what do we, the collective we, advocates, judges, et cetera, need to do next to ensure
not just the increased access to Veterans Treatment Court by every veteran who is eligible, but
also how do we sustain these courts?
So they're not just a good idea.
Thank you for your service.
Here's a T-shirt.
(19:51):
And then over time, they aren't sustained.
So what are your thoughts on what we need to do next?
You and I have grown up in the legal system, first law school, then lawyers.
And then I was on the Supreme Court and you grow to the rank of Major General in the Army,
(20:12):
Advocate General Court.
And that profession insists on give me the data, prove your case, and then I will draw
conclusions from that.
And if I think you've proved your case, then I'm going to grant judgment for you.
And similarly, I think that's something that advocates for BTCs need to do.
(20:39):
I think it's important to collect our data to find how many people in a particular jurisdiction
are in jail and who have military service.
Because a lot of people say, oh, we don't have any problems like that in our jurisdiction.
Anybody who has committed a crime, they can't possibly be a defendant who is a veteran.
(21:05):
It's also important, as you and I have discussed, to collect data on graduation rates from our
VTCs.
It's also important to collect data on low recidivism rates from our VTCs.
And to show how effective it is economically not to put the veteran in jail where he or
(21:30):
she cannot work and earn any income and therefore pay any income taxes or buy any goods and
services and pay taxes on that.
And if the veteran is married, the spouse may have to put herself or himself on welfare
to try to provide for the family.
So that's a further drain on the economy.
(21:53):
In Wyandotte County, Kansas, it costs, I think, $34,000 a year to incarcerate somebody.
So if you don't incarcerate them, you have all those savings and then you're rehabilitating
them so they never have to come back through the system.
And they're not time and time again using up the judges' resources and time, the probation
(22:16):
officers' resource and time, the prosecutors, the defense counsel, the jailers, the officers
who are arresting that person time and time again.
And you're at the end of that pipeline, if you will, you have somebody who's contributing
to society and contributing to his or her family.
(22:36):
And there's a huge price on the family to be paid if the veteran is in jail and is not
at home looking after kids and showing them the correct path to adulthood.
Because if they don't have that guidance, then the kids follow dad's example.
And they wind up in trouble with the law.
(22:59):
My wife had been a probation officer for 20 years and she was regarded by some people
as the, quote, family probation officer, unquote, because she had mom and dad on probation
at one time and then later she had the kids.
And you just want to end that cycle.
So for a lot of different reasons, economic, sociological, and the fact that it's just
(23:23):
the right thing to do to help our veterans, I think those are things that we can emphasize
going forward on why we not only need to keep what we have, but also enhance the current
ones and also to create more.
Because I know there are many veterans out there who still need these services and they
just don't live in jurisdictions that provide them.
(23:44):
Thanks, chief.
Chief, let me just say you never disappoint.
Whether it's a personal conversation that I'm having with you about these veterans'
treatment courts or certainly today.
And on behalf of Justice for Vets and, of course, a personal thanks for me, we appreciate
your time.
We appreciate your insights.
And you demonstrate how this is a community willing to share with others, lessons learned,
(24:08):
the experiences so that we continue on the path that we are on.
So again, on behalf of everyone at Justice for Vets, on behalf of our listeners and certainly
me, thanks for your time.
We look forward to your continued support for this really, really important cause for
our veterans.
So thanks again, chief.
Thank you, but just been my pleasure.
(24:29):
This has been the Justice for Vets podcast when thank you is not enough.
Hosted by retired Major General Butch Tate.
This podcast is made possible with funding from the Bureau of Justice Assistance.
Thanks for listening.
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