Lexi's Can Of Worms Part 1

In this episode, Lexi, the show's regular host, opens up about her story of estrangement. Part 1 focuses on her childhood trauma, and the effects of having one or more family members diagnosed with mental illness.


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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:08):
You are listening to When the Bow Breaks.
If you'd like to contact us, youcan do so by sending an email to
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If you'd like to support theshow, leave us a five-star
rating on iTunes.

(00:28):
Welcome to When the Bow Breakswith your guest host, AC Fisher.
So obviously today we're doingsomething a little bit different
in that Alexis is guesting onher own show.

SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (00:40):
So Alexis, welcome to When the Bow Breaks.

SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
Thank you.
You're so hospitable.
It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_03 (00:49):
It's always interesting entertaining
somebody in their own studio.

SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (00:54):
It's uh So we'll skip the normal formalities.
We know who you are.
Now we want to hear what you'reall about.
So several weeks ago youinterviewed me for this show.
And the little bits that youwere able to share from your own
story and listening to mine, Ifound actually quite
fascinating.
It gave me a little bit of aglimpse into you.

(01:17):
And as soon as your pilotepisode went live, I couldn't
actually wait to get into thatand hear a little bit more about
you, but I actually found that Iwas really wanting for more.
And I can't help but think thatmaybe a lot of the other
listeners are sort of in thesame position.
I mean people come on your show,they talk to you, and we hear so

(01:40):
much about them, but we just getall these little teasers about
Alexis.
I mean we have a general ideaabout like why you wanted to do
the show, what your goals are.

(02:02):
But I I think we all sort of arecurious, you know, what makes
you tick?
Like where did this whole thingstart?
You know, take us back to thebeginning.
Let's just go back to, you know,when you were just a glimmer in
the eyes of your mother andfather.

SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Okay.
Well, when or before I was aglimmer, um it I don't want to
go too much into it because itwould take friggin' forever, but
uh there uh my parents marriedin the 60s and then they had my
older brother and sister, likelate 60s, early 70s, and then 10
years later they had me.
But like during that time, somestuff happened, like in my

(02:40):
family.
Uh when my older brother, uh,who's 11 years older than me, my
sister's 14 years older than me,when my older brother was uh
still in my mother's womb, myfather had had uh an affair with
someone at work, which produceduh a child, a son.

SPEAKER_02 (03:00):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Um so that was something that I didn't know
about until I was in high schoolwhen my mother told me and she
explained that she was reallystressed during the pregnancy
because of that.
And so without her reallytelling me too much more, I kind
of put it together that thingsweren't so good between my mom
and dad for a while.

(03:21):
And then all of a sudden theyhad me 10 years later, 10 years
after that.
So I was born in '82, and thenthey had my younger brother.
Now, when they had my youngerbrother, things started to get
kind of weird at home.
When my younger brother wasborn, my mother was in the
hospital, and because my youngerbrother, my baby brother, had

(03:45):
jaundice, and so my parents werethere a lot.
And my sister, my older sister,she was about, let's see, she
was 14 years older than me usedto.
She was about 17, 18.
Yeah, almost 18 when she wasbabysitting me.
So I'm like three, and she's 17.
So that just kind of gives you apicture.

(04:06):
My older brother's 14, I think.

SPEAKER_03 (04:07):
So it's quite an age gap between the series.

SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Big age gap.
Like they were my siblings, butit was more like by the time I
was old enough to remember them,they were almost like other
adults in the house, you know?

SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
They had their own lives and they didn't play with
toys and things like that like Idid.
So they had friends and sociallives and cars and you know,
stuff like that.
So it was a little bitdifferent.
So I was usually kind of like onmy own.
I was very um okay with playingby myself.
I had a good imagination, butum, I think I was too little to
really realize how much I wasreally left alone because I was

(04:47):
able to entertain myself.

SPEAKER_03 (04:49):
And I had my Was there like an assumption with
your parents that your yourolder siblings would be sort of
looking out for you during thistime?

SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, it was kind of said thatthere were only certain times
when my sister had to babysitme.
It wasn't like all the time, butthere was one instance where
both my parents were at thehospital and my older brother
was um he was at a friend'shouse or he was either maybe he
was at the hospital with myparents, I'm not sure.
But I know it was just my sisterand I at home.

(05:17):
And uh there was this oneincident where my sister was
supposed to give me dinner andthen put me to bed.
Um, and then after my parentsleft, it was like as soon as
they left, she said, okay, it'stime for bed.
And I was like, Oh, it's, youknow, I haven't had my dinner
yet.
And she's like, No, you'regoing, you're being a brat and

(05:38):
you're going to bed.
But it was funny because like Ididn't remember being a brat.
I didn't remember doing anythingin the time from my when my
parents left till the time, youknow, she's telling me I I'm
going to bed right away.
Like, I don't I didn't rememberdoing anything.

SPEAKER_03 (05:51):
So her reaction was kind of a surprise to you.

SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Yeah, it was a surprise to me, definitely.
I wasn't prepared for that.
And I was like, I thought shewas just joking.
I was like, no, it's like wehave to have dinner first, like
then I'll have my bath and I'llgo to bed.
You know, I'm trying to likenegotiate and well, because you
understood the routine, but shewas deviating from it.
Yeah, she was deviating from it.
And so I was trying to put myfoot down, you know, like no,

(06:16):
like then I started gettingsassy.
Um, and uh I didn't say anythinglike mean or anything, but I was
just like, no, it's like I wantmy dinner, like I'm hungry.
And uh it was at that momentwhen um I said I was gonna tell
mom and dad or something.
Uh it was then when she thephysical abuse with my sister

(06:37):
started.
I got a slap, strong slap to theface.
And she takes me by my arm anddrags me from the living room
into the bathroom, and ithappened really fast.
Um, I just remember kind ofbeing like put in the tub, like,
and the tub was like emptystill.

SPEAKER_03 (06:57):
And um so you're just a little kid, you're trying
to figure out like why you'renot getting your supper, yeah.
Why the routine's beingviolated, and now you're getting
slapped around and thrown intoan empty tub.

SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
Well, yeah, at this point I'm not even thinking at
my about my dinner now.
I'm thinking, okay, that part'sskipped, now it's bath time.
Okay.
And so I'm taking my bath, and Iremember being in there like a
really long time, like until thewater was freezing cold.
And I remember like I was toosmall to like reach the linens
in the bathroom.
Somebody always got, you know,what I needed down, like a towel

(07:30):
or whatever I needed.
And I always had my pajamasready and stuff like that.
Um, but this time, you know,none of that was done.
And so I realized, like, oh, Ican't reach anything.
Like, and so I started yellingfor my sister.
I'm done, can I have a towel?
You know, I'm like yelling, anduh sorry that was too loud.
Um, but you know, like little,you can imagine like little

(07:52):
three-year-old me just like,Shell, I'm done.
I need a towel, you know, I'dlike to get out of the bath,
like, okay.
I'm big, you know, basically,you know, succumbing to whatever
my sister's mood is, and okay,like try not to piss her off
anymore, like just you know, dowhat she says, and then I'll
talk to mom and dad later.
So, um, but she didn't come andI stayed there for like much

(08:15):
longer, like to the point wheremy skin was irritated and I was
getting tired.
And uh so I just started torealize nobody was gonna come
and get me.
And so I got out of the tub andI drained the water like I was
supposed to, made sure that youknow all that stuff was done.

SPEAKER_03 (08:34):
I couldn't even hold your end of the bargain.

SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
I couldn't even reach the light switch to shut
it off.
Like that's how small I was.
And so I leave the bathroom, Iused whatever light I could see
from the bathroom um to light myroom.
My room, our house was reallytiny, um, and uh my room was
kind of like an internal room.
Like you had to walk through myroom to get to another room, so
it wasn't actually a bedroom,but it was a little kids' room.

(08:57):
I didn't really care that peoplewere walking through my room.
I didn't need privacy at threeyears old, but um, it was a
really small house.
Uh, but so I opened my door andjust or just to try to find
something that I could wear.
I I couldn't reach my pajamas orI couldn't see anything and I
couldn't reach the light switch.
So all I knew to do was I justcrawled into bed and I wrapped

(09:20):
myself up in my bed sheets, youknow, and I'm like dripping wet
and I'm cold.
And I don't even remember like Ithink my my like my main blanket
was being washed, and so it wasjust a sheet, and so I was like
wrapped up in a wet sheet, and Iwas really cold, and I remember
like it's Southern California,it's not that cold, but when
you're little and you're threeand you're wet and it's late

(09:42):
night, it's cold enough.
And I so I remember beinguncomfortable, but I eventually
fell asleep, and yeah, again,nobody came to check on me or to
ask if I was okay, like nothinghappened until my parents, you
know, come home and somebody fflipped the light on, and I'm
like, oh God, you know, like mymy I I that's not often that

(10:06):
happens where someone turns thelight on in the middle of the
night, and so it it woke me upand my mom is kind of upset and
she's mad.
And what's why does she have noclothes on and why is she wet?
And um, and then I just kind ofexplained, you know, Sissy
didn't take care of me.
She mean she said I was a bratand she didn't, you know, she
put me to bed without dinner,and I wasn't really like able to

(10:27):
explain everything because I waslike half asleep.
And um, but I I remember hersaying that she slapped me.
Um, I don't know if I remembertelling her exactly how or
where, but um she was just kindof mad that you know I wasn't
being taken care of like I wassupposed to have been.
And I remember my mom saying athing or two to my sister, but

(10:48):
beyond that, nothing reallyhappened.
Um but I didn't like it.

SPEAKER_03 (10:53):
So your sister wasn't really taken to task for
the abuse or the like neglect?

SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
No, not really.

SPEAKER_03 (10:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
Um, as far as I know, there it wasn't because
that abuse continued when I gotolder.
Like she still, it wasn't adaily thing, but she still
slapped me.
She still burned me with curlingirons and things like that.
She did what she could to getaway with like trying to hurt
me.
Uh, she pulled my hair when shewas brushing my hair.
She would just pull like extra,extra hard, you know, and then

(11:20):
she would just say, Oh, you needto sit still, you know.
But it was her tugging andpulling like out of anger.
And um, I have some some scarsfrom that, like being burned
like on my neck and on my chinfrom the curling iron.
This is the 80s, so it's likecurling iron and hairspray and
that was all part of everydaylife.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
But you know, for athree-year-old getting burned

(11:41):
with a curling iron, your sisteryanking on your hair when you
barely have any, it's it wasn'tpleasant.
It wasn't a pleasant part of myroutine.

SPEAKER_03 (11:49):
So, was your was your sister like your primary
caregiver a lot of the time?
It sounds like your parentsweren't really there much.

SPEAKER_01 (11:55):
No, she wasn't, and that's why she wasn't, because
she wasn't taking care of me,and my mom was more irritated at
the fact that she was cominghome and I was cold and wet and
wasn't fed, and I wascomplaining.
She didn't really care too muchabout the fact that I was
slapped.
She figured that was somethingthat I needed.

SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
So, yeah, that was the whole kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 (12:16):
So your mom was kind of okay with the abuse and just
wasn't okay with the neglect andthe inconvenience.

SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
Well, back then, that's the thing.
Like, they didn't call slappingin the face if you talked back
abuse.
Not in my family.
That was you were talking back,you you need to be dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 (12:31):
No, I mean that's how it was in my family too.
That was just normal stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Yeah.
Um, now I can say that it wasabuse because yeah.
But um, but then it took meyears to be able to really
acknowledge that.
Um it wasn't even until afterlike I spent years in
counseling.
It was like, it didn't come outuntil like I was in support
group, I think, uh, saying thatword abuse.

(12:55):
I just had like practicing itbecause I knew I was abused and
I was like trying to getcomfortable with saying it.
But um, yeah, she wasn't myprimary caregiver, but she did
babysit me sometimes.
And and after a while, like theythey had her stop because it was
too much of a problem.
And she also had her own car.

SPEAKER_03 (13:12):
That was too much of a problem, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
Um, too much of a problem was me complaining, I
guess, that I didn't like howshe was taking care of me.
And my parents figured it wasjust because we were sisters and
we didn't get along.
That was always what my parentsassumed.
Um, they didn't assume that, youknow, as soon as they were gonna
leave, she was going to throw mein the tub and not give me
dinner and slap me for sayingso, you know, that I wanted my

(13:35):
dinner, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (13:35):
They thought this was just a case of incompatible
siblings.

SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
Yeah, yeah.
That's really what they thought.

SPEAKER_03 (13:40):
And, you know, but That must have been hard for a
young girl to try to digest allof that.

SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
God, yeah, it was because it just kept happening
as I got older.
Like, maybe she'd stop, shedidn't babysit me anymore much
after that.
It was my older brother.
But when it turns to my olderbrother, it's different.
Um, my older brother was nothinglike my sister.
He was kind and he was gentleand he was always very

(14:06):
accommodating of me.
Like, he would buy me like aBarbie doll on my birthday, and
he would make sure that like Ihad all these books um with
cassette tapes that went withthem to read to me because
nobody read to me at home.
My parents didn't read to me.
Um, my sister didn't read to me.
My brother, he could have readto me, but he's like, I don't

(14:28):
like to read, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
Um, where where was he when this stuff was happening
with your sister?

SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Um, he was usually gone.
That was um when it was him andmy sister at home, none of that
stuff ever happened.
It was only when I was alonewith my sister.

SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
All right.

SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Yeah, none nobody ever saw my sister hit me.
Um, so that was another factor.
They didn't believe me for areally long time because they
never saw it happen.

SPEAKER_03 (14:53):
So that in itself must have been its own bag of
issues.

SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
Oh yeah.
And it was always like, is shegonna hit me?
I, you know, I'm worried she'sgonna hit me because if she hits
me, nobody's gonna believe me.
So I always had anxiety aroundmy sister after that.
Um, up until I stopped talkingto her.
Um, but backing up, uh, when itcomes to my brother, it was
different because he was kindand he was always playing games

(15:18):
with me.
And um, he made sure that uh,you know, that I was fed, and he
wasn't the greatest cook, but healways used to make me
sandwiches.
And I remember like being in thekitchen, stopping my feet, cut
the edges off, please cut theedges off.
And he would be like, Okay, hewould always tease me like he
wasn't going to, you know, andthen he would, and it always
used to bother me.

(15:38):
But it was like, you know, funnylittle stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 (15:40):
Well, he sounds like a good brother.

SPEAKER_01 (15:41):
He he was he was he was the best.
Um, there was there was sometimes when um uh everyone would
be gone and he would be watchingme, and my parents would be
like, You can't have anyoneover.
And then they would leave, andI'd be like, remember, mom said
you can't have anyone over.
And then what did he do?
He would invite like half theblock over, and we would have a

(16:02):
house full of kids break dancingbreakdancing on the living room
floor because we had hardwoodfloor and a huge master stereo,
so it was like it was awesome.
And I was like a three-year-old,like right in the middle of all
that, and I had the greatesttime, and there was never any
like violence or drugs oranything like that.
Like, really, people came overfor a couple dances and then
they went home and it was it wasfun and it was fine, and nothing

(16:24):
bad ever happened.
And um, but still, like all thestuff that you know he was told
not to do, he did, but I wasstill in a safer environment
than I was with my sister.
So when my brother would disobeymy parents, I didn't really give
a shit because I knew that I wasokay and that I was safe and I
liked my brother's friends atthe time, and they were always

(16:45):
really nice people, and I playedwith some of their younger
siblings.
So it was just kind of like, youknow, kids in the neighborhood.
Um, but yeah, he was always veryaccommodating to me and making
sure that I had toys and that Ihad, you know, that I wasn't uh
that I was comfortable and thatI wasn't scared and that I
wasn't hungry and all the thingsmy sister didn't do for me.

(17:14):
Are you enjoying When the BowBreaks?
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Like and share.
And uh, but as he got older, andthen it was like me and my
younger brother, but he wasstill little.
My younger brother was hardlyever babysat by my older

(17:36):
siblings.
He was like hardly ever aroundbecause he was still like a
nursing baby.
So he was with my my mom still alot.
Um so I was still like beingbabysat by my by my brother.

SPEAKER_03 (17:47):
So for for the most part, you were the youngest kid
in my life at any given time.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
Yeah.
Um, so it was like, yeah, twoteenage siblings and then a
little, tiny little kid.
Um, and I was small too.
Like I was small for even athree-year-old.
Like I wore two T clothes untilI was five because I just I
didn't have I I always hadhealth issues, and that's like
another part that has to do morewith my mom.

(18:12):
But um, I had a lot of healthissues and it kind of like
stunned my growth and uh andaffected like my body's like
development and things like thatin um like with my bones and my
joints and my nerves and thingslike that.
But um anyway, as my brother gotolder, he started spending more
time with a particular friendaround the corner.

(18:33):
Um, spent more and more timethere.
He started coming back, cominghome, you know, acting kind of
funny.
And, you know, like extra happy.

SPEAKER_03 (18:44):
And as a young kid, you just didn't understand it.

SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, I didn't understand it.
But I didn't see it as a badthing at the time.
Um, and then my and then mybrother, well, we we all got a
little older.
We moved from uh that house to alarger house because obviously
we needed more space.
And so we moved in with mygrandparents and built an
addition on their house.

(19:08):
But while this was all beingdone, we were still kind of um
in crammed sleeping quarters.
Um, this is while the house wasbeing built, but we'd already
moved there.
There was this particular nightwhere my brother, um a couple
years later, my brother had, youknow, had other friends that he
was going to visit, and he wasstaying there for longer periods

(19:29):
of time and started to kind of,I don't know, seem like a
rebellious teenager, I guess.
He he didn't seem abnormal, butto me it seemed like he was
different.

SPEAKER_03 (19:43):
Like this is you from the young child
perspective.

unknown (19:46):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
I didn't know what was happening.
I knew that he was changing, andI knew that something like had a
hold on him that didn't have ahold on him before.
This wasn't him coming homehappy and giggling and goofy
like he.
Used to.
This was him being upset all thetime and anxious and nervous.
So now when he was babysittingme, he was irritated that he had

(20:07):
to do it.

SPEAKER_03 (20:08):
Um you sort of lost the the fun, cool caregiver
brother.

SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, he was still trying tohave fun.
Like I remember this one time Iwas I was actually egging him on
to have fun, like because hewasn't playing with me, and I
was really mad.
And I was like, why didn't youplay with me?
You know, and um, so I there wasthis like little bouncy ball,
and he was like bouncing it onthe wall, like playing dodgeball
with me with it, and you know,just trying to hit me with that,

(20:33):
he wouldn't have hurt me withit, but he was trying to bug me
and I was trying to get him toplay.
So I was like, Yeah, he'splaying with me, and he's just
trying to hit me with this ball,like you know, his little
sister.
And um, and then all of asudden, like I hear this crash
and all this glass falls on me.
Like, I'm okay, like I didn'tget hurt, but the little tiny
little bounce ball had brokenlike a brand new window in our

(20:54):
brand new house, and you know,that was just being remodeled,
and we knew that that was goingto upset mom and dad, but at the
same time, we both like startedlaughing and it was like
freaking funny, and we're bothlike, oh shoot.
So he grabs the broom and thedustpan and cleans it up, you
know, and he doesn't blame mefor it or anything.
Um, so you know, stuff like thatstart to happen.

(21:16):
My brother starts getting sloppywith taking care of me and
starts to have like a badattitude.
He's still not watching me thatoften.
It's usually like when myparents are going to church or
like at a meeting or something,and my brothers, you my younger
brother's usually with them.
Um, so a little more time goeson, and uh at this point I'm
like seven.
Um, I'm seven years old, andwe're in this house, and I have

(21:39):
a room in the front house, butthe door lock doesn't work good
on it.
It's like an old door.
Um, there's a reason why I'msaying this.
Um, my brother really started toget into drugs.
By this time, I pretty much Iknow it's drugs.
Like I don't know how to expressthat.
I know that he's doing somethingbecause I I saw movies when I

(22:00):
was a kid, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (22:01):
Right.
Um you know enough to know whatdrugs look like in a general
state.

SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
And I knew my brother enough to know that that
wasn't who he was.
And uh so this one particularnight, um it the same thing kind
of happened again, like what hadhappened with my sister.
Um, my parents leave, and youknow, I'm like, oh, it's dinner
time, and he says, No, you'regoing to bed, you're being a

(22:26):
brat.
Almost the same exact words.
And I'm thinking, no, no, no,no, not this again.
Like, no, I'm not being a brat.
Like, I need to have dinner andthen I'll go to bed.
Like, you know, why are why isthis happening?
And um, so I started arguing, Istarted getting really mad, and
he sends me to my room and hetries to lock me in, but of
course the door doesn't lock.

(22:47):
And so, so he's like 17 at thispoint, or 18 at this point.
He's an adult, he's 18.
Um, he's pushing on the door.
I'm trying to push back on it,and I'm like, you know, I'm
doing my little sister thing.
Like, I'm kind of we're kind ofgiggling, and there's a little
bit of pushback and stuff, likewe're not exactly fighting, you
know.

SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
So it's not entirely crappy.

SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
Yeah, so we're pushing, you know, and then it
I'm like kind of egging to modelit all, like, you're gonna get
tired, you can't hold itforever, you know, like you
know, being kind of a pain inthe ass, little sister.

SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
But um but then when he opens the door, he grabs like
a pencil box that I had in myroom and he threw it against the
wall.
And pencils and shavings andshit just fly everywhere.
And I was like, whoa, like Idon't think I could have gotten
hurt, but I mean it's possible.
Um, and I'd never seen that kindof behavior from my brother

(23:43):
before.
So that kind of scared me.

SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
So was it was this sort of a case of like you you
perceived it as a bit of a gameand then it turned kind of ugly
all of a sudden?

SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
Yeah, I guess.
I guess so, because I wasn'tused to my brother treating me
that way.
He had never done that stuffthat my sister had done before.
He was always a nice guy, and Ionly just started noticing that
he started acting weird, and I'mlike, why are you not playing
with me?
You know, like come on, youknow, and so I didn't understand
like his whole I didn't reallyunderstand why he was acting
that way.
I didn't really put the twotogether, really.

(24:13):
I knew that something was goingon, like I knew about the drugs,
like, and I'll get into thattoo, because I know because I
talk to those people, butanyway.
Um, so I I try to get out again,he puts me back in, and and like
there's more like pushing, andI'm like, you know, but this
time I'm kind of getting upset.
Oh, you know, like that's notokay, now I have to clean up

(24:34):
this mess, and you know, well,he took this chair, it was like
a small kid's like, but it waslike a solid oak chair, and he
threw the chair and it almosthit me.
I don't think he I he didn'tlike aim it directly at me.
I know he wasn't trying to dothat, but he was definitely
trying to scare me.
And when he threw it against thewall, it broke, and that's when

(24:58):
I just kind of stopped and I waslike, okay, I don't want to try
to make him angry anymore.
So I stopped fighting back, Istopped talking back, I let him
shut the door, and I just kindof sat there, and I don't know,
for a while trying to kind offigure out what to do.

(25:20):
I didn't know what to do, and Iknew there was something wrong
with my brother because he'dnever been like, I don't know,
violent like that.
You can call that violence.
I don't know, see, I stilldon't, you know, how viol, you
know, how violent do you have tobe to be considered violent?

SPEAKER_03 (25:33):
I mean, you throw a chair at a kid and you're
especially when you're you'reyou're talking about what was
becoming your normal.
I mean, it's it's hard to lookback on that and label it as
anything other than right,right.

SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
So I'm sitting there and I I'm look I'm just starting
to kind of like this is thefirst like real memories I have
of this bedroom.
I didn't even remember it beforethen.
Now I like this is like my firstmemories of being in this room.
Um, even though we'd lived therefor a couple years before that.
Uh my mom, she was kind of amessy house person.

(26:05):
I don't, that's saying itlightly.
Um back then it wasn't that bad,but my room wasn't very clean.
I had a lot of my mom's likeoffice things in there.
So there was a telephone andthere was a phone book, and I
knew how to read.
So I opened up the phone bookand I, because I was thinking
about this, I was like,something's wrong with my
brother.
I I can't contact my parentsbecause you know, no cell

(26:26):
phones, and I didn't know thenumber of where they were
staying, and I knew that mybrother wasn't going to let me
call my parents where they were.
So I just kind of stayed thereand I was just like, I didn't
want to call the police becauseI didn't think that it was
anything that I had to call thepolice for.
And I knew that my mom wasalready in the habit of um
threatening that if we didn'tkeep the house clean that CPS

(26:49):
would come and take the kidsaway, like me and my younger
brother, because my olderbrother and older sister were
already adults.
So um, so that was already likebeing drilled into us um at this
point.
Uh so I was afraid to call thepolice, and I also didn't want
anything happening to mybrother.
I didn't want my brother goingto jail.

(27:10):
You know, I just knew that heneeded help, and I knew that
this wasn't a good situation forme, and I was gonna tell my
parents, you know, maybe youshould get, you know, maybe you
shouldn't like leave me withthem anymore.

unknown (27:22):
You know.

SPEAKER_03 (27:22):
Yeah, like you weren't looking for trouble, you
were looking to stop thetrouble.

SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
But I was thinking seven years old.
I didn't even know how to hardlyprocess any of this.
I was just trying to take thenext step.
Like, I need help.
So I picked up the phone bookand I, you know, I maybe I did a
stupid thing, but I opened upthe phone book and I called one
person.
It was somebody that I knew.
I I every person I called werepeople that I knew.
It was like people from church.
I was like, oh, that's the nextperson you call is like someone

(27:47):
you know at church that youtrust, like a Sunday school
teacher.

SPEAKER_03 (27:50):
Well, you're doing what any kid would do.
You're looking for a trustedgrown up.

SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
Yes, I was looking for a trusted grown-up.
Exactly.
And so, um, because my parentswere unavailable and my
caregiver was unavailable,obviously.
And so I called my Sunday schoolteacher and it rings, it rings,
it rings.
The machine picks up, and so Ileft a message.
And this is when I, you know, Ihad a lot of guilt about this

(28:13):
for a very long time, about theway that I said it, um, because
I didn't know how to say it.
Uh, but I said, um, hi, teacherso-and-so, um, it's Lexi.
I'm calling because my brotheris beating me up and I don't
know what to do.
And so I said, you know, can youplease call me or I'll see you

(28:38):
in church tomorrow because itwas like a Saturday.
And so I hang up the phone and Iwas really nervous and upset.
I waited a few minutes, I didn'tget a call back, and so I called
another another number and leftthe same message and another
number.
And I don't know how many Icalled, maybe like four or five,
possibly six, seven.

(28:59):
I really don't remember, but Iremember I called quite a few
people and left the samemessage, and nobody picked up.
And I didn't realize at the timeall those Sunday school teachers
were at the Sunday schoolmeeting with my parents.
And so I eventually put myselfto bed.
I fell asleep again with nodinner.

(29:20):
Um, I wasn't thrown in abathroom.

SPEAKER_03 (29:21):
You must have felt very helpless and overwhelmed
through all this.

SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
I just I was.
I don't remember like labelingit that, but looking back, yeah,
I was very overwhelmed.
That's why like I went straightto bed.
I just like slept.
I didn't know what else to do.
And as a child, that was notnormal for me to like lay down
and go to sleep.
I was a very active kid.
I did not take naps well, I didnot go to sleep well.

SPEAKER_03 (29:44):
But this particular-cause the kid likes
to go to bed, so that must havebeen heavy.

SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
It was very heavy, and also like I felt safe
because I had a bunk bed and Iwas like on the top bed, and so
I knew that like once I was inbed, like that's what everyone
wanted.
Everyone just wanted me to shutup and go to bed.
That's what everyone wanted.
So I was gonna shut up and I wasgonna go to bed, and so I went
to bed and the next morningcomes and it's like it's Sunday,

(30:11):
and I'm like kind of in a daze.
I'm really tired.
I'm being drug around the house,like getting ready, like you
know, being pulled by my sisteror my mom or whatever, my dress
on, my hair done, my breakfastwolf down, which is probably
like, you know, dry bowl ofcereal or something.
Um, you know, just whatever Icould fit in that short amount
of time that we were rushing togo to church.

(30:32):
And so I really wasn't thinkingabout what had happened the
night before.
I was remembering it, but I Iknew that it wasn't the time to
talk about it, I guess, becausewe were in our morning, Sunday
morning rush, and my mom waswith the baby, and my dad was
trying to get stuff in the carbecause we played music on
Sundays for church, and mysister was doing my hair, and my
older brother was helping my dadwith stuff, you know, it just
wasn't a time to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 (30:53):
Sunday mornings at a Christian household.
I yeah, I know how that circusgoes.

SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
It's like bring your kids to work day almost, it's
like that.
Yeah, it's craziness on a Sundaymorning, especially when you're
like PKs, when you're likepastors' kids.
Yeah, if you didn't know it,PK's.
Yeah, I feel that.
So we're we're getting ready forchurch, and I go and I'm I'm
kind of like more in my Sundaymorning mode, I think.
Um I don't remember the car ridethere.

(31:17):
I'm sure like again, we didn'ttalk.
There was always music playingin the car.
So we listen to music on the wayto church, and we get to church,
and I walk in, and you know, I'mkind of expecting the normal,
like, you know, like the normalchurch buzz, like the hum of
everyone talking and sayinghello and good morning, and um

(31:38):
the piano, you know, gettingready to piano player getting
ready to play, or um the pastorspraying before, you know, the
normal stuff, but um it wasdifferent.
I walk into church and I walkinto the main, you know, the
sanctuary is what we called it.
I walk in and there's only acouple people in there.

(32:00):
It it almost seems kind of likedark.
Like nobody's there.

SPEAKER_03 (32:06):
Like like the like the mood is dark, you mean?

SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
The mood was dark, and even it even felt like even
all the lights weren't even onyet.

SPEAKER_03 (32:13):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
Like everyone was kind of late or something.

SPEAKER_03 (32:17):
And uh because no one So it's not your normal,
like lively, Sunday excitingkind of Yeah, the auditory the
sanctuary was kind of empty.

SPEAKER_01 (32:25):
There was just a few people at the back just walking
in.
Um, and I was saying hi toeveryone when I was coming in,
but when I came in, there wasn'treally anyone in there.
So I just kind of sat or stoodat the back because I was
waiting for my family to come inbecause I didn't know we were
where we were sitting.
So I was always, you know, I waswaiting for my mom and my dad
and my brother and my sister tocome in.
And um, so I stood there and Iwaited, and I remember, I don't

(32:48):
know who it is, but I remembersomeone who was close to me.
It was a male, a male figure,and it bugs me because like I
don't know who the person is,and it bothers me that this
person was there and I don'tknow who they are because I
can't ask them like if theyremember this.
And it's like this bugs me.
But um, there was a personthere, and I don't remember who
they are, but I um I know I knewthem, and they were standing

(33:12):
there, and then I had um otherpeople started coming in, and
you know, I'm trying to say hi,you know, hi sister so-and-so,
or hi brother so-and-so, nice tosee you.
But nobody's really sayinganything to me.
Everybody's got this look ontheir face, and um all of a
sudden I see my Sunday schoolteacher and everyone else I

(33:33):
called kind of stand in a line,and they walk by me, and
everybody points their finger atmy face and says, How dare you
make a call like that?
Do you know that you could havegotten your brother in some
serious trouble?
And I wasn't really allowed totalk.
I remember I think maybe I wasprobably too scared to talk,

(33:54):
also, because I remember.

SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
Well, I guess when you got this whole group of
adults, they've already decidedwhat you'd done wrong.
I mean, what is there to sayabout it?

SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Exactly.
Yeah, they had already decidedthat I had done something wrong.
And of course, me being seven,I'm thinking, oh God, that was
that was wrong, I guess.
Shoot.
That was bad.

SPEAKER_03 (34:12):
So you were already second guessing yourself, and
then these people just confirmedthat you'd done the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
That I had done the wrong thing, exactly.
And that I what I had done notonly was the wrong thing, but it
was a terrible thing, and um uhSo it wasn't even a case of
anybody acknowledging that hey,your brother kind of fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 (34:30):
That's the thing, nobody even was a case of like
you put him at risk.

SPEAKER_00 (34:34):
Yeah.
Nobody even bothered to ask,hey, are you okay?
What happened?
Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_01 (34:44):
At this point, well, I felt like I was totally
scapegoated because it it didn'tend there.

SPEAKER_03 (34:50):
Um you're seven years old.
I'm seven years old.
So you're you're still basicallya baby, and then these people
that are supposed to be lookingout for you, they seem like
they're looking out for theperson who was uh kind of like
treating you like shit.

SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
Well, that was the thing, and and some people are
like, well, how did all thosepeople just shake their fingers
at you?
It wasn't even it wasn't likethey got the message and just
chose not to believe me.
What had happened was the reasonwhy no one was in that sanctuary
is because my mother had foundout from someone that I'd made
the calls.
Like I guess people at churchare like.

(35:23):
Yeah, she um like whipped up alie really quick and said, Oh,
she was playing with the phone.
The phone was left in her room,she was playing with it.
And he was babysitting her andshe was acting, you know, she
was misbehaving, and he sent herto bed and she didn't like that,
so she made calls.
Uh, you know, or whatever.
I don't know exactly because Iwasn't there, but it was
something like that's what itseemed like to me.

SPEAKER_03 (35:45):
But I mean, as Christians, it doesn't really
seem like they were reallyplacing much value on the truth.

SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
They didn't they weren't interested in asking me
personally what happened.
They didn't, you know, no yeah.
So it really bothered me and itdidn't stop there.
When I went home, some bigchanges happened.
I do my own laundry now.
I cook my own food now, I takecare of myself.

SPEAKER_03 (36:06):
As a result of the the the phone calls you made?

SPEAKER_01 (36:09):
Yeah, and I wasn't allowed to go anywhere.
I wasn't and I definitely wasnot allowed to use the phone.
So yeah, my mother was really,really angry with me.
She was really, really mad atme.

SPEAKER_03 (36:20):
Um It sounds like they kind of doubled down on the
shittiness though, because ontop of like not sticking up for
you and not protecting you, nowit sounds like they've sort of
thrust you into uh a role ofmore like an adult should have
had at seven years old.

SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
And you know, I think a lot of that stemmed from
my mother's anxiety.
Um my mother has mental illness.
She's been indirectly diagnosedbecause she won't go to
counseling, but she has uhnarcissistic personality
disorder, but I know she hasother like disorders too,
probably like borderlinepersonality.
That's I don't know, that's whatI've been told by like several
therapists, not just not justone.

(36:55):
Um so uh so yeah, I have tolike, but I didn't know that
about my mom then, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
I know but she was probably just mom at this point.

SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
She was just mom and mom's really mad at me, I did
the wrong thing, and you know,what I was doing, it wasn't a
big deal.
Yeah, I kind of want to know howto cook.
So I can make grilled cheese, Ithink.
So let's do that.
Let's put grilled cheese andlet's burn it 12 times before
you get it right, you know,because it was cast iron pan and

(37:26):
I didn't know anything abouthigh, low.
Nobody was supervising meeither.
I'm literally like in my yeah,I'm literally like in my
underwear, like walking aroundfeeding myself and doing my own
laundry because people juststopped.
And to top things off, if thephone answered, you know, I
wasn't allowed to use the phoneexcept when uh my mom would tell

(37:49):
me to answer it.
And whenever she would tell meto answer it, it would always be
the same person.
Um God, I want to say his name,but I don't want to say his name
because he's a fucking prick.
Um and his name was Chris, I'mgonna say Chris.
His name was Chris.

SPEAKER_02 (38:07):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
Uh he used to call for my brother, and uh he used
to ask for my brother, and Iwould say, Hey, so-and-so's, you
know, Chris is on the phone.
Okay, I'll be there in a minute,you know.
And so I'm seven now, mybrother's eighteen, he's
spending a lot of time in hisroom, um, and then going to his
friend's house and then comingback and spending more time in

(38:28):
his room, sleeping, loud music,just like these weird cycles of
abnormality.
And so I answer this phone, andit's this guy, Chris, and he
wants to talk to my brother.
He's always calling to talk tomy brother.
And uh, but while I he's waitingfor my brother to come to come
to the phone, I'm supposed tostay on the phone and entertain
him, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 (38:49):
So I So you're like the hold music, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
Yeah.
So I'm on the phone, and youknow, there's no hold button or
anything, and you don't want toleave the phone sitting there
because the baby could get it,or you know, it could fall, or
you know, just hold on to thephone and don't leave the person
just hanging there.
So I'm sitting there on thephone.
I'm like sitting on the counterin the kitchen, and it's like
messy, and there's disheseverywhere, and it's smelly and

(39:13):
scross.
And I'm sitting there and I'mtalking to this guy, and he's
asking me questions like, Hey,how are you?
Good.
What are you doing today?
Nothing.
Uh so how old are you now?
I'm seven.
Well, when you get 18, why don'tyou give me a call?

(39:37):
And you know, it was like thingslike that.
But the more the conversationswent on, it was like, so when
are you gonna be 18?
Like was more personal.
Like, hey, what are you doingtoday?
So did you play with your friendor did you do this?
Or and you started asking memore personal questions, and I
didn't know.

SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
So did you sort of get what he was driving at at
that evening?

SPEAKER_01 (39:54):
I didn't get what he was driving at, but he
definitely creeped me out, hedefinitely made me
uncomfortable, and I definitelyknew that he shouldn't.
Not be talking to me that way.
I was I knew that I was a childand I knew that nobody had
business talking to me that way.
And I used to tell my mom, Idon't like talking to him.
He says stupid things to me.
He asks me when I can go on adate with him.
And she would say things like,Oh, he's just teasing.

(40:15):
You know.
Um, and she'd, you know, blow itoff.

SPEAKER_03 (40:18):
But he did that too, but anybody ever assumed that
you were in harm's way?

SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
They did everything they could to tell me that I was
fine.

SPEAKER_03 (40:30):
It sounds like a recurring theme of you being put
in bad positions and the peoplethat are supposed to care for
you just sort of brushing it offas you being, yeah, I don't
know, like a a liar ortroublemaker or a nuisance.

SPEAKER_01 (40:42):
I have a lifetime of situations like that where I was
like purposefully placed insituations that made me
vulnerable.
Um, and looking back, I'm like,why would they ever even think
of doing that?
Like, I went to modeling schoolin the 90s for um for acting
classes, but the modeling schoolhad acting classes, so I was

(41:03):
going, but I had to take a busuh to Los Angeles by myself on
Saturdays to go to this class,and I was walking around
downtown LA by myself withadults.
I was in an adult class becauseI was too advanced for the kids'
class or whatever they saidbecause of my acting, because I
already had a lot of.

SPEAKER_03 (41:22):
So when you say with adults, you don't mean you were
with adult chaperones.
You mean you were just in thecompany of other adults.

SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
Yes, I was in the company of other adults, male
and female.

SPEAKER_03 (41:30):
And LA seems like kind of a busy city for a young
girl to be trying to navigate onher own.

SPEAKER_01 (41:37):
I didn't know where the hell I was going.
Like when we left the building,when we left the building for
from class to go to lunch, I hadto go find like McDonald's or a
restaurant or a store nearbywhere I could buy my meals.
It took me a while to get toknow, you know, those streets or
whatever.
But um, yeah, I was wanderingwalking around downtown Los

(41:57):
Angeles at 11 years old bymyself um with other adults.
And sometimes these adults wouldtake me out to lunch with them
and they would buy my meals andstuff, and they were always
really great.
Nothing bad or inappropriateever happened.
But think about how easy thatcould have been, though.
And like I was on the bus forhours.

SPEAKER_03 (42:15):
I I get that you are in danger.
I mean, I think anybodylistening to this is already
like their skin's probablycrawling a little bit because
we're all thinking about eitherour own kids or like kids that
we know and like trying toimagine them in these
environments, and it just itseems so impossible.

SPEAKER_01 (42:30):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
But what what I'm more curious about is like you
in the middle of the situation.
Because I mean, like the creepyfactor and the irresponsible
factor, these are obviousthings.

SPEAKER_02 (42:40):
Yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_03 (42:41):
But what's going on in your head at at this time?
So here you are in the companyof these adults, you're used to
the grown-ups in your livesbeing kind of shitty people, and
now suddenly you're in thecompany of grown-ups that are
kind of looking out for you,they're making sure that you're
fed, you're entertained, andwhatever.

SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (42:58):
Like, what's going through your mind when you're
experiencing all this?

SPEAKER_01 (43:01):
Well, when I was with them, like I did have
anxiety.
I'm like, are they gonna be niceto me?
You know?
And so I would sit with them andthey would, yeah, they would
they would buy my meals and theywould tell me I didn't have to
pay sometimes, you know, likesometimes like, oh, let her pay
for her own meal, you know.
Like, if she has money, like lether do it, you know.
But but you know, sometimes itwas like pizza or something, and

(43:22):
you know, that was kind ofexpensive for a little kid.
So, you know, they'd buy me awhole pizza by myself, and it
was nice.
They they were nice to me.
Like they made sure that youknow, they weren't trying to
babysit me, but you know, theywere there kind of keeping an
eye on me, make you know, makingsure, you know, we would hang
out or whatever.
I was another student, sothey're just like, hey, come on,
have lunch of us.
So it was more like that, butum, it was still like I was

(43:44):
still vulnerable and I was stillI was scared.

SPEAKER_03 (43:47):
And you know, but I So the anxiety you're feeling is
that just about like the thingsthat like a normal I hate to say
normal, but what just like yourcommon person would expect to
cause the anxiety, you know,like oh, this is an
inappropriate situation, or I'mnot taken care of, or is this
like tied more into like yourexperience with your with your
older brother?

SPEAKER_01 (44:06):
I think I was just at this point, um, when I well,
when I started going to modelingclass or whatever, I was 11, so
I was already used to being onmy own at that point.
So um, yeah.
So it was like kind of like thiswhole chain of events thing
where my parents just they spentless and less time with me, but
they spent more money getting meout of the house.
So it was like, oh, take her todrama class or take her to this

(44:29):
or take her there.
Um, they didn't like having mearound because when I was
around, I was usually talkingabout what I didn't like at
home.

SPEAKER_03 (44:38):
So this wasn't a case of them trying to give you
the best experiences.
This is just a way to make youkind of like fuck off and get
out of the way.

SPEAKER_01 (44:45):
Well, the modeling school was my idea, the ice
skating classes were my idea,all of that was my idea.
When it looked like my parentswere being supportive, what they
were really doing was justtrying to get rid of me.
They didn't like spending timewith me.
Uh we didn't have like dinnertime at the table, we didn't
have family time like that.
Like I rarely I only sat with myfamily to eat if we would go out

(45:06):
or we if we were at some otherfamily's house.

SPEAKER_03 (45:09):
Was that kind of like an image thing, do you
think?

SPEAKER_01 (45:11):
Uh yeah.
Oh yeah.
It became more evident as I wasan adult because it was then it
was like my mom changed what shewas, you know.
She did the same stuff, shejust, you know, it was different
uh circumstances that she woulduse to, you know, gain public
sympathy or attention um fromwhat I was doing.
Um so yeah, so it was like theywere taking me here because they

(45:32):
didn't want to spend time withme, and then I was doing all
these things and accomplishingall these things, and they were
getting attention for it.
And so then we'd go to church orwe would go to my uh my uh
runway shows or my actingthings, you know, and my mom
would talk me up.
My parents would, oh, she's soshe's such a great kid, and and
and all that, but people don'tknow that like when we got in

(45:56):
the car, the yelling would startand the belittling.
And so now, you know, it's notjust my sister, it's not just
like my brother, it's it's myparents too.
And so I don't feel like Ireally this is my normal family,
so I'm stop I'm starting to umnot think about externally

(46:21):
asking for anyone's helpanymore.
Because I feel like that this ishow my this is my life.

SPEAKER_03 (46:36):
Interested in being a guest on the show?
Send us an email, wtbb podcastat gmail.com.
Thank you for listening to Whenthe Bell Breaks.

(46:56):
Before we go too far, yeah,because I know it's really easy
to like get lost in you knowmoving forward in your story,
but there's a couple things thathave sort of jumped out at me
while you were talking.
And I think like the first thingI kind of like to go back to I I
think sort of ties into whatyou're talking about right now.

SPEAKER_02 (47:14):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 (47:15):
And I wouldn't mind exploring your church life just
a little bit because um fromwhat you've been saying about
your your mom, especially, Ihaven't heard much about your
dad yet.

SPEAKER_02 (47:26):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 (47:27):
I do want I do want to get into that.
But your mom seems like she's avery uh image-oriented person.
She also seems like um she'skind of disconnected on a like
moral and ethical level fromwhat I would expect to see in
somebody who values you knowkind of Christian fundamental
beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 (47:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (47:46):
Like what what are you seeing like as a child
observing your parents in thechurch?
And also I know I'm gonna likejust overload you with question
here, but you talk a lot, so Iwant to give you a chance to
just run so I can shut up.
Um the the other part of it isyou know, like you're you're
talking about how you'reobserving your family life as
being kind of just like normalfamily life, but you must have

(48:09):
had some chance to observe otherfamilies while interacting in
church functions and whatnot.

SPEAKER_01 (48:14):
Well, that's the funny thing, AC, because um
whenever I did spend time withother families, it was usually
families that my parentsapproved of.
And it was usually families thatwere worse off than we were, so
that we would always look betterand they would always look worse
to me.

SPEAKER_03 (48:31):
Okay, so even in social situations, like
everything was stacked to makeyour mother's image sort of um
maintain itself.

SPEAKER_01 (48:38):
Well, there were families that I did spend time
with that my mother had nothingto do with.
So I did have a chance to get toknow nice families.
So I and I did see, you know,structured families where they
had, you know, lovingrelationships and a tidy house.

SPEAKER_03 (48:56):
And does that seem kind of weird to you?

SPEAKER_01 (48:59):
Um I always not weird.
I appreciated it and I liked itand I hated going home.

SPEAKER_03 (49:08):
So you could actually see though and
recognize that that was kind ofthe way the things were more
supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Yes, but at the same time, I also had my mother uh
feeding me stories when I wouldgo home about the people that I
was with.
So I was also getting likeconflicting information from my
mother, but then I was goingthere and having good
experiences.

SPEAKER_03 (49:29):
Everything's not as it seems kind of approach.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:31):
Well, sh my mom was always trying to say, oh,
there's something wrong withthem.
And she would always try to uhclaim that she could pinpoint
what was wrong.
Okay.
Um, things like that.
When in reality there reallywasn't anything wrong, it was
just her being delusional andtrying to muddle my opinion of

(49:52):
the family that I was spendingtime with.

SPEAKER_03 (49:54):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:59):
So like what about like the it sounds like there's
a lot of hypocrisy going on.

SPEAKER_01 (50:04):
Yeah, because when it comes to the religious thing,
we were taught one thing, butthen we were seeing another
thing represented or displayed,or um, you know, we were not
seeing the examples that youwould think would come from a

(50:24):
Christian home.
Right.
We were told to love andforgive, but no one ever modeled
that to us.
Uh it took me years before Ieven learned how to apologize to
people properly because no onehad ever apologized to me for
anything.
And I wasn't ever, I was I wasonly ever made to apologize,

(50:46):
like forced to apologize.

SPEAKER_03 (50:49):
But kids learn best through example, so that must
have been kind of tough.

SPEAKER_01 (50:52):
It was tough.
And then it was like, okay, I'mnot being told what to do, or
I'm not being shown what to do,but I'm being told what to do.
So I was always trying to justdo what I was told so that I
wouldn't get in trouble.
Because if I got in trouble,then it was like you get a
Christian spanking.
You know, um, yeah, thathappened very frequently with me
because if y'all can't tell, um,I talk and my family didn't like

(51:17):
that.
So it was whenever they weredoing something wrong or um
something that was bothering methat I was trying to express or
trying to share my feelings, Iwas always being told to feel or
be made to feel like I was inthe wrong or I shouldn't feel
that way, or you know, so it wasit was really difficult, it was

(51:39):
really confusing to grow up in afamily like that.
And uh it was hard.
I was trying to break away fromthat, but I didn't know how.
And at the same time, I wasreally scared because my mom had
always like built up this fearin me of other people, and so I
grew to be, especially duringhigh school, I was very, very
quiet and introverted.
I stopped kind of like standingup for myself because um it

(52:04):
wasn't effective for like adecade.
And so um I just became verylike closed off and uh not
really open.
And I started to play musicbecause I thought maybe I could
communicate something, but Ithought that was a way I could

(52:24):
be very vague about it.
So a lot of my songs were kindof meant to be like Christian
songs, but they weren't reallyabout that um at all.

SPEAKER_03 (52:37):
That's always been the nice thing with Christian
music, though, is you can hideso much behind like presumably
Jesus-y lyric, right?

SPEAKER_01 (52:44):
Yeah, you can, you can.
And I mean, I used to be aworship leader.
I'll say that right now.
I used to be a worship leader.
Um, and I know all about it, theins and the outs uh of what it's
like.
That's one of the hardestpositions in church.
I'm gonna say that it's toughbecause it's a creative job,
it's very personal.
Uh anyway, I just wanted to say,yeah, um, tip my hat, stall you
worship leaders.
I know how it's tough it is ifyou're listening.

(53:05):
But um anyway, I don't do thatanymore.
But um, yeah, so my homeenvironment wasn't good.
I saw glimmers of, you know,niceness from other families,
but I, you know, and I spenttime with those people, and I
was even invited on vacationswith them, and um, because I was
always so well behaved, andbecause I never talked back, and

(53:28):
because I never caused anyproblems, because I was always
afraid of getting in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 (53:31):
I'm thinking, God, if my family keep my head down
and shut up.

SPEAKER_01 (53:36):
Like, wherever I was at, I learned the rules real
quick.
Like, I freaking learned therules of the house there because
I did not want to get in troubleat anybody else's house.
And with whatever my mom wassaying, they're this or they're
that, you know, I was like, ohgod, what what are they gonna do
to me if I get in trouble, youknow?
And there was this one guy, he'slike, You gotta call me sir.

(53:57):
And I was like, ooh, okay.
So then I was like, okay, and Igotta stay here for a week now
because my parents write itdown.
So, you know, I knew I wantedbetter, and I knew that I didn't
want to be like that when I grewup.
And when I was 17, I wasbasically like counting down the
minutes to when I could leavebecause I knew I wasn't loved at

(54:20):
home, and I knew I wasn't beingheard at home, especially, and I
knew that all of my words and mythe things that I have expressed
were twisted around by my momand my sister.
Uh, and my brother had a drugproblem now, drinking problem,
you know, things would godisappearing.
Um, I was 13, I started workingfor myself because um my mom

(54:44):
wasn't buying my things.
Um, she was buying, she waspaying for my brother's things
when he was on drugs, but shewouldn't buy my things, so I had
to go and get a job and dohomeschool because I was
homeschooled.
So I was homeschooling andworking, babysitting.
Um and then I would have to comehome and after all of that
babysitting, I would have togive some of my money or all of
it to my brother so that hecould go get gas.

(55:09):
Um he'd go around the corner andthen come home.

SPEAKER_03 (55:13):
They started off kind of shitty, and it sounds
like this kept getting worse.

SPEAKER_01 (55:16):
It kept getting worse.
Yes, it did.
At this point, my sister wasmarried and out of the house,
but um, yeah, it was worse.
My brother's drug problem wasworse.
He was uh rarely working.
Um, he was having a lot ofproblems, he was having a lot of
breakdowns.
I remember there were nightswhen he was just crying and
screaming, and my mom was tryingto talk to him, but she was
basically feeding him bullshit,and I would be like, Why can't

(55:39):
he go to counseling?
And my mother would say thingslike counselors are crazier than
the people they try to help.
And that was exactly what shesaid to me when I was 15 after I
tried to commit suicide, and mymom found out about it.
Um I don't want to go too muchinto that.

(56:01):
Uh I don't like going into thedetails about that because I
don't, you know, I don't want tobe able to do that.
Well, it's enough that you werethere.
I get it.
Yeah, yeah.
So uh it was like three times,and she told me I when I begged
her to go to counseling becauseshe wanted to know why.
I begged her to go to counselingand I said I'm having emotional
problems and I'm overwhelmed andI need some support.

(56:21):
Can we go?
Can we can you please take me tocounseling?
I'm like bawling, I'm not evenlike just talking to her.
I'm like, I'm bawling my eyesout.
I'm like begging, I'm on myknees.
I'm saying, can you please takeme to counseling?
Um and no, that wasn't going tobe that wasn't gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 (56:37):
It kind of feels like your your mom had a problem
with counselors because shedidn't want to look her own
mental illness in the eye.

SPEAKER_01 (56:43):
Yeah, that was exactly what was wrong because
as I got older, it was like,yeah, the counseling thing was
always shut down.
Um so so I'm 17, I'm gettingready to like I I decided to
live at that point because itseemed like my mom like just
wanted me dead at that point.
Like she didn't give a shit whathappened to me, really.

SPEAKER_02 (57:01):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (57:02):
All those instances, like it would take forever, but
there's so many instances wheremy parents just kind of left me
somewhere, like, or in dangersomewhere, and I was so sick of
that.
And so I just I wanted to leave,and so I turned 17, and what do
I do?
Stupid.
I I move in with my sisterbecause I'm thinking my sister's
an adult now, she's married, shehas a kid, she's not gonna treat

(57:22):
me the way she used to when shewas a teenager.

SPEAKER_03 (57:24):
Yeah, that's childhood stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (57:26):
Yeah, that's kid stuff.
We were just kids.
I'm gonna be 18 soon, and I cando my own thing, but I can stay
with my sister because she mysister actually asked me.
She said because she had anacting or an uh assistant
directing job for me to do thathad to do with the children's
place.
So I went up there to helpassist and do that.
I also played the main um adultrole also in in uh the

(57:50):
production, so it was a lot ofwork, and I was thinking, oh,
I'll just stay there and then Iwas gonna go back home because
I'm thinking I was just gonnahave a break from my family.
But I I I really wanted to stay,and so I stayed, but it wasn't a
bad situation, it wasn't a goodsituation.
My sister, she wasn't slappingme or anything, but she was
definitely financially abusingme and she was definitely
keeping me from leaving thehouse.
She was definitely like uhtaking money from my mom and not

(58:14):
giving it to me, you know, thatmoney that was supposed to be
for me.
So again, I was withoutdeodorant and things like that.
And then I was like, okay, now Igotta get a job again because
um, you know, no one's takingcare of me.
Um, but even then I wasn'tallowed to do that.
So uh went to another relative,she told me how to use the bus

(58:35):
schedule and help me get a bankaccount and all these things and
got me set up as an adult,basically.
I moved in with a family in mychurch.
Um, I rented a room from themand I stayed there for a year
and a half, and I worked retailfor a year and a half plus
church work for free.
So I worked my ass off like allthe time.
Um, I didn't want to go home.

(58:56):
I was just glad to kind of beout on my own and doing my own
thing and not having too muchcriticism.
And uh, but I had a lot ofanxiety still.
Um, I fast forward, there's uhuh having to do with my
estrangement.
Fast forward, I'm married withfour kids, and but I'm still
kind of like stuck in the oh, myfamily they love me somehow, I

(59:22):
love them, it's gonna getbetter.
We just need to talk, or I needto ex- they're not really
hearing me.
I'm not explaining it in a waythey can understand.
You know, I I'm always trying atthis point, I'm always trying to
like improve my relationshipwith my family because it never
seems to get better, it alwaysseems to get worse.

SPEAKER_03 (59:38):
And um you're explaining in a way that who can
understand?

SPEAKER_01 (59:42):
Yeah, my parents.

SPEAKER_03 (59:43):
I was trying because they weren't like you're talking
about being married and havingkids and talking about family.
I'm just oh I want to be clearwhich family we're talking
about.

SPEAKER_01 (59:51):
Okay.
I was married, had kids, and Iwas trying to explain my
feelings about how you know,about all the that stuff that
happened to me as a kid.
I was trying to talk about thatto my parents, but they were
never receptive about it.
And it oh, it never happened.
Or they still didn't believethat my sister slapped me.
You know, so they couldn't evengo there.

(01:00:12):
And it's like, even when I triedtalking, it's like they couldn't
even hear me.
Like, it wasn't, they theydidn't get it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:19):
Like they wouldn't even just throw you the bone of
validating your experience.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:23):
Yeah, not even.
They would not even do that.
And so again, like moredepression just kind of sank in.
And I got deeper and deeper intodepression.
And it was so terrible.
I could, I didn't know what waswrong with me.
I kept thinking there wassomething wrong with me.
Why do people hate why do theyhate me?
And oh, it's because of that onetime.
And it's like, but then no, as Iwas an adult, I went to

(01:00:46):
counseling finally because Ididn't ask my mommy this time.
I went on my own.
And when I went on my own, Istarted opening up about all
this shit.
And then when I started talkingabout it, I realized that my
parents were freaking neglectfuland abusive.
And so was my sister.
And my brother had problems andthey didn't do anything.
And so all of this stuff justcame out.

(01:01:06):
And then it was like, well, nowwhat am I gonna do?
And and then my counselor andthis other counselor and this
other counselor were like, oh,narcissistic personality
disorder sounds like what yourmother has and what your sister
has, and and uh possibly someother things, and possibly some
schizophrenia from your brotherand bipolar from your father,
and that's what it sounds like.
And and I'm like, Well, what theheck does this mean that I

(01:01:28):
can't, I mean, that I can't evensolve any of these issues now
because there's no hope?
And then he said, Well, theyneed to go to counseling.
And I said, That's the problem.
I said they would never go, andthey spoke against it, and they
hated uh all my friends who werestudying psychology, and uh they

(01:01:50):
just they couldn't stand it.
And I was like, if I could getmy mother into this room, she'd
probably just divert everything,she'd probably it would it would
be word salad is what we callit.
Like she'd twist everythingaround.
It would be like ineffective.
I think I and then he's like,okay, so what do you want to
accomplish here in counseling?

(01:02:10):
And I said, Well, I need to dowhat's right for myself.
And just after a while, theconclusion came to I can't be
around them anymore.
They won't stop, they don'trespect my boundaries, they
don't listen when I say, Hey, Idon't like talking about blowing
people up and conspiracytheories at the table when my
children are there.

(01:02:31):
Hey, I don't like my sistercoming around my kids because
she's starting to do the samething with my kids as she was to
me.
I don't want her around.
They didn't respect thosethings.
And um, so I'm a heated parentat this point.
Uh, this starts to become allabout my kids.
I'm not even thinking about myown feelings.
I was just mad because theyweren't listening.
Again, they weren't listening.

(01:02:52):
And so I heavily debated cuttingit off with them for a year
because I wanted to give themopportunities to hear me.
I wanted to give themopportunities to talk to me and
to um honor my requestsregarding my kids and regarding
my own personal boundaries, anduh they just weren't doing that

(01:03:12):
at all.
And in fact, you know, they werethey were going and they were
they were stealing things frommy home and you know, things
like that.
And uh it just it was gettingworse and worse and worse.
And I just had to stop.
I really was going crazy, and Ihad to stop.
And um, the day came when I wasrecovering from a surgery and my

(01:03:33):
parents were babysitting, and Iwas really uncomfortable with
them babysitting, but it was along, it was like for a few days
I was in a lot of pain.
Um, and so they were watchingthem, and I was always calling
to check up on them and stuff.
But there was this one day wheremy mom called me, and so I
picked up the phone and Iexpected to hear one of my kids

(01:03:55):
or something, or I expected tohear her ask me a question about
the kids.
But when I picked it up, shedidn't answer.
I just hear this muffling noise,and then I hear my sister's
voice.
Now, my sister, she was like mymain abuser growing up, really.
Um she abused me verbally,emotionally, financially.

(01:04:15):
Uh she did a lot of what theycall psychological molestation
um with me and my youngerbrother and my niece, um things
like that.
So I at this point I was alreadyestranged for my sister.
I was already not talking toher, and I already told my
parents don't let them around,don't let her around my kids.
Um, but I heard my sister'svoice on the phone, and so I

(01:04:37):
freaked out, flipped out.
I had to wait a while because Ihad had some pain medication um
from my surgery.
And so I remember drinking lotsof water.
I remember calling uh, Iremember calling my spouse, and
I remember calling my friend,and I remember calling my
counselor, and I was like, whatdo I do?
Like this was like the laststraw.
Like I gave them chance afterchance and they're not doing it,
and I can't do this anymore.

(01:04:59):
And and it was already like adecision that I had already
made.
I was just waiting for them toscrew it up, I guess.
So I texted my mom and I said,I'm coming to get the kids, make
sure they're ready.
And that's all I said.
So I got myself together, Idrove down there to pick up my

(01:05:19):
kids.
Uh I was upset.
I was doing everything I couldto stay calm, and when I got
there, I just remember myparents smiling and laughing.
My sister wasn't there, ofcourse.
She'd already left because Itexted that I was coming because
I really didn't want my sisterthere.
I was worried that there wasgoing to be some sort of
confrontation if she was there.
So I wanted her out of there.

(01:05:40):
Because I wanted her away fromthe kids.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:42):
So their sort of like jovial attitude.
Was that um why was thatsurprising to you?
Like, was it abnormal for you tohave called and said, look, like
make sure the kids are ready?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:54):
Yeah.
Because because I had alreadyset it up to where they were
gonna stay for like a couplemore days.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:01):
Um this was cutting the visit short.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:04):
Yeah, they were there for because my surgery was
like in the summer, and it wasthey had the surgery ended up
being more invasive than it wassupposed to be.
And so it was I was in a lotmore pain than expected, and so
my recovery time was umlengthened.
And so I needed like a good weekbecause I was on I was on heavy
painkillers for like a weekstraight because it was I was in

(01:06:27):
so much pain and I couldn't takecare of my kids.
So um that you know what thenext best thing, go to grandma
and grandpa's, you know.
So they're there, and you know,so I go and pick them up, and
when I get there, um she's mysister's not there.
Uh my parents are laughing,smiling, talking, being really,
really chatty with me.

(01:06:47):
Um, because it was out ofcharacter for me to say, I'm
coming and getting the kids,make sure they're ready.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:52):
And what about them?
Were they sort of acting out ofcharacter?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:54):
They were acting out of character.
I mean, my mom was always, youknow, they were like, they knew
they fucked up.
They I'm pretty sure they did.
They were like, Okay, yeah, theywere trying to cover it up.
They didn't think I knew.
So I get my kids in the car, Iget their stuff in the car.
My mom said something about, oh,see you in a couple days for
this thing, this church thingthat she invited me to that I

(01:07:15):
already told her I wasn't goingto because we already had plans.
And um I just remember, yeah,yeah.
I remember walking out the doorand I remember my dad trying to
hug me, which is odd because mydad never hugged me growing up.
And every hug after that feltvery awkward.
He tried to hug me, and thistime I actually pushed him away.
Like, not shoved him oranything, but like I was like,

(01:07:37):
no.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:37):
Yeah, it's just like this hug is over now.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:39):
Yeah, I'm not doing this.
I'm not hugging you right now.
I'm not in a huggy mood.
Like I wanted to just say that,but instead I just kind of like
pushed and I backed away, and heacted like it was like no big
deal, and I get in the car andum I say, I just wait, you know,
I'd like bye, fine, bye.
And I shut the door.
And so I turn around, I turn thecorner, and my kids are in the

(01:08:01):
car, and I asked them, I said,was Aunt B there?
And they said, Yeah.
She comes over all the time,mom, and she know, and I know
she's not supposed to be there.
She hides in the office when youcome drop us off, and then she
comes out when you're done.
She parks her car around thecorner.
I said, Why didn't you tell mebefore?

(01:08:22):
She's like, Well, I just knewtoday that I knew for sure she
wasn't supposed to be therebecause I heard grandma saying
that you texted and that she hadto leave before you got there.
So my oldest already knew thatmy sister wasn't, my kids were
very uncomfortable with her atthis point because she'd already
abused them in a coupledifferent ways.
Um, my sister had alreadyslapped my son at this point.

(01:08:44):
My sister had already neglectedmy kids because my mom was
taking my kids over to her houseunknowingly.
I had no idea she was doingthis.
She was taking my children overfor my sister to watch, and my
sister was neglecting them.
And I didn't know that this washappening because it took a long
time for my kids to be able tosay this.
And they were using my twoyounger children who weren't
really of talking age yet, or ofthat processing age.

(01:09:08):
Uh there were like times when Ipicked up my son and um none of
the diapers were used in thediaper bag.
It was just he was left in hisdiaper all day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:18):
Um just more neg more neglect, more shittiness,
just like what you'd go on.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:22):
Yeah, and it was like, and it was like, okay, so
I was keeping them, you know,away from my parents, you know,
more it was like I only usedthem in emergency situations,
like with the stink and surgery.
I couldn't afford a babysitterfor a week, and I was really
hoping that everything was gonnabe okay.
And I was, I was alreadyplanning to, we were planning on
moving, and I was like, okay,when we move, I just I won't
talk to them anymore, I won'tsee them anymore, it'll be okay.

(01:09:46):
Um, but it wasn't going to belike that.
I knew that I had to cut it offcompletely, um, especially for
my kids' sake.
So I did that, and uh, that wasthe last day I talked to them um
personally.
Uh I sent them a letter via mailand email uh explaining my

(01:10:11):
estrangement and the reasonswhy, because I wanted it in
writing.
If they were gonna interruptthey couldn't interrupt my
letter, um they were eithergonna read it or they won't, or
they or they wouldn't.
Uh so I gave them a letter and Iwas like, I can't do this
anymore.
You um if there is ever a chancefor you to reconnect with me, it

(01:10:34):
will have to be after you've hadsignificant time in counseling.
Because I won't talk to youotherwise.
And I said, Don't don't call me,don't text me or anything like
that.
I did give them permission tolike contact my husband because
for emergencies they were olderand they didn't have, you know,
my my other siblings didn't doshit for them.

(01:10:55):
So that line of communication.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:58):
You wanted to make sure that your parents were
still taking care of.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:00):
Yes, I wanted to make sure my parents were still
taken care of.
Because at this point I didn'tthink it was gonna be like a
forever thing.
Um I just thought it was gonnabe temporary that, oh, this will
jog their memory, maybe, ormaybe this will get their
attention, maybe when I finallystop m stop talking like they
asked, maybe when I finally shutup, and maybe when I'm finally

(01:11:20):
gone and I'm not in the picture,or maybe my sister won't hate me
so much, and maybe my motherwon't be like that to me.
So so I strange myself, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:33):
I'm gonna put you on pause.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:34):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:36):
You're getting emotional and you're speeding
up, so I think we'll take abreak for tonight, and we can
get back to this next time,okay?