Lexi's Can Of Worms Part 2

Refill your box of tissues as Lexi continues the series of events preceding her initial estrangement. Part 2 continues.


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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:07):
You were listening to When the Bell Breaks.

SPEAKER_01 (00:11):
And uh they did not get along.
And there were always fighting.
There was always like fistfights where they would give
each other nosebleeds.
And my parents would have tobreak them up.
I felt that if they understoodme, then maybe they would love
me.

SPEAKER_03 (00:35):
So the last time we talked, you mentioned sending a
letter to your parentsexplaining why you couldn't have
anything to do with them.

SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
It was more of like, I don't know, for some reason I
thought that there's still achance that I can still have a
loving and growing relationshipwith my family.
My family just needs extraattention or extra help, or
they're not understanding me, oryou know, maybe one day they'll
listen.

(01:03):
So I'm thinking maybe just somesome time apart where I'm
telling them, hey, I'm not gonnatalk to you right now.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09):
Because you thought like if you gave them like a
list of reasons, then they mighthave a chance to digest it and
there was some chance of maybesalvaging a relationship of some
kind?

SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
Yeah, I thought that they would think about it.
Um, I don't I don't have theletter.
I think it would be triggeringfor me to read it, but um my
letter consisted of, you know,A, B, and C, these are the
reasons why I can't really bearound you right now, because
it's emotionally damaging for mefor these reasons.

(01:39):
Um, a lot of it was the the waythat at this time I didn't know
that my mother had narcissisticpersonality disorder.
At the time, I only knew that mysister had.
Um, my mother was a lotdifferent.
She was a different kind ofnarcissist, so their
personalities weren't the same,so I didn't categorize them in

(01:59):
the same, but and it took me awhile to realize that the um
epicenter of a lot of thingsthat happened to me was my mom.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
So I hadn't figured that out yet.
So a lot of my letter wasfocused on my sister because she
was abusive, and I had cutcontact with her originally
because of that.
But yeah, I thought that thetime apart and having them have
time to think about it, thatwould somehow improve things
later, and that maybe one daythey'd be, oh, I'm sorry, I

(02:32):
didn't realize that all thosethings made you feel that way,
or I apologize, that wasn't thebest parenting move.
I expected some kind ofconversation, but I didn't get
that.

SPEAKER_03 (02:43):
So what what did you get?

SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
Well, at first, I mean I didn't expect it to
happen right away.
Um what happened was uh we movedand we didn't tell them our
address, and I changed my cellphone number, and my husband
kept his open line ofcommunication.
My parent parents are they'reelderly, and uh I had other
siblings, but they're kind ofincapable of taking care of

(03:08):
them, so but they would neveraccept our help, and then they
would tell everyone we weren'thelping them, you know, that
kind of stuff.
Um we kept the line ofcommunication open, but we said,
you know, don't text Lexi.
Like don't talk to her.
Like if you have an issue, ifsomeone gets hurt, or if someone

(03:30):
needs to go to the hospital andthere's an emergency, like you
can contact, you know, myspouse, and then he will talk to
you and he will take care ofthings.
I won't be in the picture.

SPEAKER_02 (03:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Don't send me messages through him, please.
But that's all they did was justsend messages and it was a lot
lots of pressure to talk tothem, and it was lots of
pressure to go back, but therewas no um one of the things I
mentioned in my letter was Iwould like you to seek out
family counseling.
I can't talk to you unless youcan get some things sorted out

(04:05):
yourself because I don't likethe way that we communicate.
And um, I was hoping that themgoing to counseling, they would
get some help for, you know,their behavioral issues.
And I was hoping, oh, if theyfix themselves up a little bit,
then maybe I can have arelationship with them.
I expected them to change sothat I communicate with them,

(04:27):
um, which is a really sad kindof wishful thinking.
But that was really what Iwanted because I really wanted
to be understood by my familybecause I felt that if they
understood me, then maybe theywould love me.

SPEAKER_03 (04:39):
Well, that's the thing.
I think that, you know, livingwithout the kind of love that
you obviously were craving,there probably still was an
assumption that a parental loveon some kind did exist.
And that if they loved you, thenthey would follow through with
the things that it would take torelate to you.

SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
Yeah.
I was I I grew up with, youknow, there were lots of
gestures of love, but I have tosay that the majority of my
feelings were feelings of fear,feelings of confusion, feelings
of shame, um, feelings ofdisgust, uh, feelings of

(05:15):
abandonment and loneliness.
And those are very big feelingsfor a kid.

SPEAKER_03 (05:22):
Did you identify them as being those things as a
kid, or was that just sort ofnormal stuff?

SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
No, it was just normal stuff.
That was my everyday.
It was normal that we went tochurch and everything was
perfect, and it was normal whenwe got in the car, my dad would
start yelling at us.
It would be normal that someonewould end up getting a spankin'
before sometime between the timewe would leave church and the
time we got home.
Um, not every Sunday, but youknow, definitely if we kicked

(05:50):
our dad's chair, or definitelyif we were arguing in the
backseat, or definitely if wesaid the wrong thing.
Um, and half the time we didn'tknow what that was.
Uh, or if plain just my dad wasin a bad mood.
Um, any excuse.
Uh, and my mom always used tosay, How come he drives to

(06:11):
church so slow and then whenit's finished, he drives like a
bat out of hell?
Um, but that would happen, thatjust you know shows like my dad
really didn't enjoy the wholeexperience.
He, you know, regardless of whathe made everyone think that he
enjoyed it, he did not enjoy it.
So we would rush home and thenyou know, he'd be in a bad mood,

(06:33):
and you know, something forlunch would be put together, or
there would be pot roast orsomething like that.
Um, but it would be a lot ofcommotion, a lot of aggravation,
a lot of um complaining, a lotof pots and pans slamming, and
um Was this just from your dador from everybody?

(06:54):
Um, everybody in the house.
It would just kind of set thetone for the whole place.
And then me and my youngersibling, we were just kind of
trying not to cause any moredisruption.

SPEAKER_03 (07:06):
So you obviously had a lot of self-blame stuff going
on as kids.

SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Lots of self-blame.
And like when I s when you sayself-blame when you're a kid,
but when I share these stories,it really kind of puts it into
perspective about you know howlike my mother, like with
narcissistic personalitydisorder, they um there's a lot
of blame shifting.
They can't take responsibilityfor their uh irresponsibilities
or their mistakes, or they havea very difficult time doing

(07:34):
that.
And uh, I remember being, Ithink, uh four years old, and uh
my mother was taking ussomewhere, and she was she had
placed my baby brother in hiscar seat, and uh I remember it
was like we had a station wagon,and uh my mom she said, Oh, make

(07:56):
sure he's buckled like his umthe actual seat belt that went
around the uh the car seat, youknow, the old style.
This is like 1987 or something.
1987, yeah, yeah, old time kickcarrier, and you just wrap the
seat around and they're justbuckled in with a little
harness, like yeah, they don'tuse this no more.

(08:16):
But um, you know, so I'mbuckling the seat belt, and you
know that when it clicks, it'sit's set.
Well I'm four.
I'm not fucking thinking aboutthat.
But I get it in and I, you know,I pull on it, I make sure that
it's snug for a tiny littlefour-year-old.
Sure.

(08:37):
So we're sitting in the car, andof course, my mom has to slam on
the brakes, and my brother's carseat goes flying forward,
sliding forward right in frontof the radio.
Like he like he wasn't hurt.
Um, he didn't get hurt, hedidn't get injured, he didn't
even cry.
I think he like said, like mybrother was a he hardly said

(08:57):
anything.
He was a genius, but whenever hesaid something, it was like
whoa, like everybody listened.
Like he just kind of like said,hey.
Like he was like just severalmonths old, and it was just kind
of like that.
But then my mother, she turnedaround and she said, You were
supposed to make sure that hewas buckled in.

SPEAKER_03 (09:15):
That's a heavy responsibility for a
four-year-old.

SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Yeah.
And it was at like at thatmoment, like I felt a heavy
responsibility for my brother.
And then also I was like, Whoa,I better fucking do everything
right.

SPEAKER_03 (09:29):
So this is beyond just your normal kid um trying
to control their environmentstuff.
I mean, it it sounds like theydumped a lot of expectations on
you that were guaranteed to bedisappointed.

SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
Just those little those little like tiny little
they last a few seconds.

SPEAKER_03 (09:43):
But there's a lot of those that make up a childhood.

SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
Yeah, and like I'm shaking thinking about this.
Um, Brian Cardoza, he said, if Iwere to take all of my stuff and
condense it, you know, it itonly adds up to what, a couple
days.
And like, but these moments arelike, they're so traumatic and
they're so effective.
And so from a very young age, Ihad this heavy responsibility to

(10:07):
uh not just my younger brother,but my entire family.
I felt that responsibilitybecause it was other instances
like that where they would lookto me like it was somehow, oh
gosh, like whether directly orindirectly, it was my fault.
It's Lexi's fault, it's Lexi'sfault, somehow, directly or
indirectly, or I made it worsesomehow.

(10:28):
And um I always grew up withthat feeling, but not really
recognizing that the feelingsthat I thought I was having,
because I would try to talk tomy mother about it.
Um, and it's hard to go intodetail about these
conversations.
I'm just going to be triggered,but if I kind of, I don't know,
trying to skim over this, but ifI would try to talk to my mother

(10:49):
and explain my, I guess what Iwas trying to do is explain my
feelings.
Um, but I couldn't even tell herthat.
We didn't talk about ourfeelings.
Um, we weren't supposed to feelthings.
We were just supposed to behaveand do the right thing.

SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
So did you ever even learn how to articulate certain
things?

SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
Um, no, we just expressed our feelings
physically, like through anger,or if we were feeling upset, we
would throw things, or we wouldgo in our room and we would um
just be angry.

SPEAKER_03 (11:18):
See, because like this this to me I find
fascinating because my family, Imean, they were assholes.
We had a lot of you and I Ithink we've got a lot of shared
experiences, but where ourexperiences in a large way part
ways is that in my family,everybody fucking talked.
Like nobody knew how to shut up.
So whereas we were very oftendismissed, it wasn't because we

(11:40):
weren't like making sense toeach other, like we would
explain things, we'd use all theright words, we felt like we
were getting things across.
Yeah, they just weren'treceived.
So I'm genuinely curious, like,what does it look like in a
house where people don't knowhow to use their words?
You know, when you say that youexpressed yourself like
physically or emotionally, like,can you give me like an actual

(12:01):
example of what that might looklike?

SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
Yes, I can.
And this is somethinginteresting too.
Um, I saw a therapist shortlyafter, or shortly, or actually
just before my estrangement, um,a specific therapist for you
know diagnostic things, um, sothat I could get, you know,
medication for what I needed tohandle my anxiety and stress and
all that stuff while I was goingthrough this really traumatic

(12:25):
time.
She had said that I wassomewhere like on the autism
spectrum.
And uh we were talking aboutthose characteristics, and I
remember them being kind ofamplified in my father and in my
brothers.
Um we, you know, they wecommunicated okay.
Like my younger brother couldcommunicate okay, but he just

(12:46):
didn't.
He didn't talk.
My younger brother, like, if youreally want to call it, he was a
selective mute.
He didn't talk if he didn't haveto.
He and I talked.
We had a good close relationshipwhen we were little, we played a
lot.
Um, but as far as like talkingand having conversations about
feelings or things like that,like we didn't.

(13:07):
Like when we learned about sex,it was in front of a television,
it was a PBS special.

SPEAKER_03 (13:13):
So you weren't you weren't talking about like just
normal everyday stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Yeah, yeah, it was just it was like, well, what are
we having for dinner?
It was never like, God, I I wasbullied at school all day and
I'm feeling really terrible, andI really don't want to go back
to that school.
Like we weren't even allowed totalk about things like that.
That was considered complaining.
And if someone was bothering youat school, it was turn the other
cheek.

(13:37):
And it was don't um don't doanything, stir the pot, don't do
it, you know, like don't talkabout it.
You're just supposed to umforgive and turn the other
cheek.
And I kept saying, What doesturning the other cheek mean?
And my mother would say, Well,you just let them keep doing it.
And I said, But why?

(13:58):
It's hurting me and it'sbothering me, and I can't focus
at school.
And uh, so it was these things,and she said, Well, you need to
go and apologize.
And I said, Apologize for what?
I didn't do anything wrong withit.

SPEAKER_03 (14:10):
Apologize to the person who hates you.

SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
To the person, yeah, she would always tell me to
apologize to the bully.
And I would always say, Well, Idon't know what I'm apologizing
for.
I'm sitting there in my classand she's kicking my seat, she's
throwing things at me, she'sharassing me on the playground,
even though I'm not evenassociating with her, I'm not
playing with her.
And uh instead of, you know,saying, Oh, talk to the teacher
or whatever, no, it was justturn the other cheek, forgive

(14:33):
her, and apologize to her.
And I said, But why?
And she said, Because when youapologize to someone, I don't
even remember what she said.
It was really it was nonsense.

SPEAKER_03 (14:43):
It was just some bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Yeah, and and so, but like I but I went and did
it.
I went and I was the I was theobedient child and I went and
did exactly what my mother said.
I obeyed my mother, and I wentand did what she said, and and I
would apologize, and you know,I'm shaking in front of this
girl, and she was, you know,calling me names, were asking me
like I'm you know, I'm sorry,and she'd be like, Yeah, you're

(15:07):
you know, you're right, you'resorry, and and their harassment
just got worse.
And then it she took that aspermission for her just to get
worse.

SPEAKER_03 (15:15):
It sounds like you got a couple of really garbage
lessons that day, because one isI mean, that's not the way kids
should be relating with eachother.
The other thing that kind ofsprings to mind is, you know,
how did that affect your view ofwhat your mother's expectations
of you and her were?
Like, did that sort of tell you,hey, you should be apologizing
to me when I treat you wrongly?

SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Did that teach you like well, no, because like I
knew like my mother would saythese things and I would be
like, that's not right.
I was like, that doesn't solvethe problem.
I was like, it's a behaviorproblem.
I was like, she needs to changeher behavior.
I was like, if I say sorry, thatdoesn't change her behavior.
I was like, this is a thing,like, I was like, shouldn't the
parents get involved orshouldn't the teachers, you

(15:59):
know, like because the teachersthey didn't give a shit.
But you know, I I wanted theproblem to be solved.
I couldn't solve it myself, andI was feeling anxious because I
was being forced to be in thatsituation every day.
This was just a small littlething.
I haven't even talked about thisthis memory to anybody.
Just this is a small little tinylittle thing that's like
important, but it's an example.

SPEAKER_03 (16:17):
That's a far-reaching one though.
Just like you're you're going toyour mom with a problem.
Your mom is not only giving yougarbage advice, but it it sounds
like she's being kind ofdismissive at the same time
because you're coming to herwith a hurt and she's saying
this is exactly the wrong way tohandle it.

SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Yeah.
And then I would go to her and Iwould say, Hey, this kind of
backfired and it's worse, andI'm really upset.
I don't want to go to school.
Like, can we talk to the teacheror can we talk to her parents?
Um, or can you talk to her?
Like, because at that point Iwas like, somebody needs to help
because like she's not listeningto me when I talk asked her to

(16:55):
stop.
She's not listening when I say,Please don't do that.
Um, she's not listening when Iapologize, like what you said,
turn the other cheek.
I was like, she just keeps doingit.
And um, and then I would tellher that, and again, it was
like, well, what were you doingto bother her?
And it again, it was alwaysreverted back to what we Lexi,

(17:17):
what were you doing wrong?
What what is your problem?
Why is she still bugging you?
And that is the perfect examplefor every single situation I've
ever been in where I felt out ofcontrol and hurt and upset and
badgered and bullied.
And every time I went to mymother for help, that is exactly
how she treated the situation.

(17:38):
Not only did she do that, but inother circumstances, as I got
older, she would continue topush me to be with those same
people, um, including like boysI did not like, boys who
wouldn't leave me alone, boyswho were following me around
everywhere, asking me for mynumber, I would say no.
They were asking my friends andlike really just did not take no

(17:59):
for an answer.
And my my parents did nothing.
They didn't give a shit.
Like they did nothing to make mefeel comfortable or safe.
And so when I estranged myself,I was thinking, God, maybe
they'll just stop and thinkabout all those times when I
told them I wasn't I didn't likethis, or can you help me?
You know, they just ignored me.

(18:20):
You know, I don't know.
I just thought it would jogtheir memory somehow, but it
didn't.

SPEAKER_03 (18:23):
Well, it doesn't sound like your parents were
ignoring you from where I sit.
It sounds like your parents wereactively communicating what they
actually thought of you, whatthey thought you were worth,
what they thought you deserved.
Like that must have weighed inon you at some point, either as
a kid or as an adult.

SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Like And then something I learned by studying
narcissist as a personalitydisorder is I learned that when
they say those things,oftentimes it's a reflective of
their own reality.

SPEAKER_03 (18:52):
Like they're projecting?

SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Yeah, like they're pr yes, very projecting.
Uh like my sister's apathological liar, but she's
always accusing me of lying,even though I have concrete
evidence that I fucking told thetruth.
She can't handle anyone else'struth.
It has to be hers and it has tobe whatever truth she wants.

SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (19:10):
And but it's like anything that's bad that's true
about herself, she'll say,she'll make up a rumor, or
she'll say that it's true aboutme or another person in the
room.
And so it took me years toreally figure that out.
And so when I went back andheard all of these things that
my sister was saying, You'rethis, or your voice is terrible,

(19:32):
um, uh, it sounds raspy, and youneed surgery on your voice, and
she would say these things likethat to me.
Um, or you know, there wasalways some kind of um
insecurity that she wasprojecting onto me.
And then I realized, lookingback on it, uh we sang as a
family, and I was the bettersinger, and she was really

(19:53):
insecure about that anduncomfortable about that.

SPEAKER_03 (19:56):
So, really, you're just getting a glimpse into like
how she saw herself.

SPEAKER_01 (19:59):
Yes.
And and but it's like it reallyisn't just about how my sister
was treating me like a piece ofshit.
My sister treated me like apiece of shit because she was
already in that mindset before Iwas born.
Because I'm sure because becauseif you think about how my mother
is, my sister was raised by thesame person.
So uh my sister was raised likethat.

(20:20):
She was the oldest child, so shewas the only one around for a
few years.
And so all of that parentingthat my mom thought she had
gotten down pat when my youngerbrother and I were in the
picture.
My sister must have gotten likemuch terrible parenting than
that, even.
And then my uh my older brother,my sister's younger brother, he

(20:43):
was more kind of a verysensitive person and more
empathic, more emotional.
And uh, they did not get along.
And there were always fighting,there was always like fist
fights where they would giveeach other nosebleeds and my
parents would have to break themup.
And um just they really hatedeach other.
And then my my mother, everytime my younger brother and I

(21:05):
would always have a fight, shewould say things like, Don't
fight.
You know, your older brother andsister used to fight.
You want to end up like them,you want to end up like them.
And and then we would think,God, you know, we're not
supposed to talk about this, butour older brother does drugs,
and our older sister, she's kindof mean and crazy.
So yeah, we don't want to belike them.
So then it was like, okay, well,how do we solve our conflict?

(21:27):
Because we don't know how tosolve conflict without fighting.

SPEAKER_03 (21:37):
Interested in being a guest on the show?
Send us an email, wtbb podcastat gmail.com.
If you'd like to support theshow, leave us a five-star
rating on iTunes.
So on on top of the fact that,like, you know, you're not

(22:00):
getting recognized as your ownpeople, you're just, you know,
your brother and sister versiontwo.

SPEAKER_01 (22:06):
Yeah, version two.
Yep, that's what we were.
We the reruns.

SPEAKER_03 (22:09):
That's what my fear of you turning out the same way,
but they're not actually givingyou any guidance into how to And
the thing is that we weren't.

SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
We weren't the same way.
We were trying not to be.
And uh my younger brother and I,we were we tried not to be that
way.
Um, but it was kind of habitual.
That was just how we lived inour house in our house.
Like it was always like butthead, and it was always just
lots of verbal abuse, lots ofput-downs, and lots of stupid
jokes.
Sometimes it was fun, andsometimes we had good moments,

(22:38):
and sometimes it was wherepeople were actually were being
nice to each other.
But there was just a lot ofnegativity and all this stuff
swirling around.
And so you're a kid and you'redealing with all this stuff
that's going on simultaneouslywith all these different people,
all these different dynamics,older brothers on drugs, older
sisters mean and abusive.

(23:00):
And even when she's lives, youknow, thousands of miles away,
she's still can, you know, shecan still figure out a way to
put you down when she's that faraway with a simple phone call,
you know, and you're asking yourparents for help and they're not
listening, and it's just it'svery confusing.
And so when I finally estrangedmyself, I was able to cut all

(23:22):
that off and just kind of likehit the mute button as best I
could, because we were stillgetting text messages and things
like that.
And then I would have to tell myspouse, please don't tell me
anymore what they said.
Yeah, or maybe or or maybe I'llask when I'm ready.

SPEAKER_03 (23:40):
Um, I can identify with that because I mean, like
with my estrangement for my mymother, I had to tell certain
family and friends, like, Idon't want any news.
Yeah.
Because I mean that that can bereally damaging and it's a hard
thing because you want to knowwhat's going on with your
people, but you can't know.

SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
Yes, and the reason for that is is because then it
just keeps you attached to them.
And when you're attached tothem, you're still a part of the
toxicity and you're still a partof that abusive cycle.
You're still you're you're init, right?
You can't be in it and not beabused, and you can't be in it
without picking up any of thosehabits.
You have to separate yourself.

(24:17):
It's like a bad drug.
You have to detox.

SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
And so I went through emotional like detox.
Um, I won't say emotional detox,but I don't know, parental detox
or toxic family detox.
I don't know.
I separated myself and so I wasno longer hearing the current
like uh manipulation and putdowns and lies and rumors, and
I'd shut all that off.

(24:41):
And I was like, you guys thinkabout this and maybe go to
counseling, maybe I'll talk toyou.
And I'm gonna, you know, takesome time by myself.
And so I did.
I think I talked about this alot in my pilot episode where I
went through a lot of griefbecause the separation was
really hard because I did lovemy family a lot.
Uh probably more than anyoneelse did in the family.

(25:03):
I mean, if I want to reallylike, you know, put myself on a
pedestal for that, I think Imade more effort, you know, than
most of my family members forthe majority of the family and
for each individual person.
I, you know, whatever, whatevereffort I could make.
Um, and it just seemed like itwas never enough.

SPEAKER_02 (25:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:24):
I was never enough.
And I I needed to know how tofeel like enough for myself,
just for myself.
Yeah.
And so I went through this wholeprocess, this whole real
transformation, really, ofreally becoming myself on my
own, not becoming this personwho they made me be.
I was like, you know what?
Next time somebody is shitty tome, I'm not gonna fucking turn

(25:45):
the other cheek.
I'm gonna be like, you knowwhat, I don't really like your
behavior and I don't want totolerate it.
So if you're gonna keep treatingme like that, you can just turn
around and walk away because I'mnot gonna put up with it.

SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Okay, so while while we're back on turning the other
cheek, I want to back you up afew steps here before we get too
far in.
Um, you've spoken quite a bitabout your mom and the things
that she I don't want to saytaught you, but you know, the
messages she gave you, ifnothing else.
She definitely wasn't parentingon a quality level.

SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (26:15):
You've talked about your your sister being your
sister.

SPEAKER_01 (26:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (26:20):
I mean, I I don't think we need to go too far into
that again.
And we we heard about yourbrother.
Now, what I'm curious to hear iswhere's dad in all this?

SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Dad is working.
He worked for like uh, I don'twant to say.
I don't even want to say whatindustry was.

SPEAKER_03 (26:42):
So his job took him away from home.

SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
His job, well, he worked close, but he worked
overtime almost every day.

SPEAKER_03 (26:49):
So he he may as well have just been out of town then.

SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
Yes, because as soon as he came home, he came home
late afternoon.
I remember we always knew whendad came home because my our mom
would go and she would pick himup.
We had this old car and it haduh like a feeler on the end.
And um because we didn't want toscratch the side of the car

(27:15):
against the curb.
And so there was this reallylong feeler, and so we always
knew when dad and mom werepulling back up because we would
hear that feeler and it wouldscrape across the sides of the
curb.

(27:36):
I haven't heard that sound in along time, but it's still very
fresh in my mind.
And it wasn't like my dad camehome yelling and screaming like
he did like after church.
My dad was just plain exhausted,and he would come home and he

(27:57):
would come home and uh hewouldn't talk to us, he wouldn't
look at us, he would say, Hidad, and it would just be him
and his big feet just shufflingacross the floor.
And um he'd set his bag down, hewould go into the den and he
would take off his shoes, hewould sit in his easy chair, he

(28:17):
would turn the TV on.
And then you knew once he satdown, don't you fucking make
noise, don't fucking move, don'tfucking laugh unless he's
laughing.
Don't argue.
If you argue, you're gonna getit.
You had to be really quiet.
My mom was always saying, Don'tbother your dad, don't bother

(28:40):
your dad.
So we always knew that like mydad had shell shock and stuff
from Vietnam.
So he had PTSD, but they didn'tcall it PTSD.
She just knew that, hey, if youmess with your dad, he could do
something crazy.
That's that was the only thatwas the only understanding we
really had.

SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
Because um, I guess when uh my sister was real
little, she went to wake him upfrom a nap once, and his
reaction was to grab his gun,but he grabbed my sister by the
neck instead.
Oh no, and pulled her up off theground.
And once he realized what he'ddone, he kind of dropped her.

SPEAKER_03 (29:14):
So it was just completely involuntary.

SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
Involuntary, completely.
So my dad would come home and hewould fall asleep in his chair a
lot.
And then it would be dinnertime, and we never sat at the
table.
We never had family dinnersunless it was like a holiday, if
we had someone coming over.
Um It was very rare and it wasvery uncomfortable when we did,

(29:38):
but um it would be dinner time,and either my mom or she would
have one of us kids bring ourdad his plate at his chair.
And she would say, you know,don't touch him, you know, just
call him gently to wake him up.
And so we hated doing thatbecause we were still scared

(29:59):
that he that we would thehigh-pitchedness uh, you know,
height of our voice.
Yeah, yeah, going to poke thebear um with his pork chops and
uh hope he doesn't like gograbbing for his gun instead.
So um, so we would just try andwake him up and then he would
sit and he would, you know,sometimes he would jerk, you

(30:21):
know, and then he would thechair would just like almost
like lift up off the floor.
And then, you know, you wouldtry not to look startled.
You would almost expect him tobe that way.
Like even when we're kids, we'relike, okay, he's gonna, he might
get startled.
So don't look afraid, because ifyou look afraid, then he'll feel
bad that he scared you.
So every little step, everylittle movement around our dad,

(30:42):
we we were so, so, so careful.

SPEAKER_03 (30:44):
But it was like, he doesn't sound like he was really
like a strong parentalinfluence, so much as like an
environmental concern.

SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
He was very uninvolved, actually.
Okay especially veryunemotionally uh unapproachable,
emotionally unapproachable.
Um, but he did not haveapproachable parents either.
And we knew this even as kids.
And so we knew that dad was kindof how he was because of his
parents, but we still didn'tunderstand why he acted like he

(31:14):
like was so angry with us allthe time.
And because he, I mean,obviously his direct his anger
was directed at us, so wefigured he must be angry at us.
We did something wrong.
We were always trying to figureout what are we doing wrong, why
doesn't he love us?
We were always saying, Dad, canwe go out to play?
Can we go play baseball?
Can we go fly a kike?

(31:35):
Can we go freaking do anythingexcept for just sit here and try
not to scare the living shit outof you and try not to get yelled
at?
And it was very difficult to getour dad up and doing anything
with us ever.
And then when he would do it, itwould always be like half-assed,
and then we would always belike, you know, embarrassed that

(31:57):
like our project wasn't like asnice as some of the other kids,
you know.
And it wasn't like we were notproud of our work, but it was
like the whole relationship partwe had grief about.
It wasn't like, oh, my car isn'tas good as the other kids.
It was like, you can tell my daddidn't spend very much time with
me.

SPEAKER_03 (32:16):
You speak very differently about your father, I
noticed.
So when you speak about yourmom, I get a lot more anger, and
I think um really just openresentment.
It's it seems really raw withyour mom.
But when you talk about yourdad, it's almost it's a little
bit more um wistful.

(32:37):
It's like you're I I I don'tknow how to label it, but I can
see there's a lot of love foryour dad.

SPEAKER_00 (32:44):
There is there is a lot of love for my dad.

SPEAKER_03 (32:47):
Um So I mean like coming into this estrangement
where you got all this shit withyour mom and your sister, your
dad is balled into that too.
Like I don't want to trigger youhere, but I have to ask.

SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
No, yeah, you do because this is a big part of
it, because um, it's not allone-sided.
It's not like, oh, I hated mysister, hated my mother, they
treated me terrible, and I wantto leave.
Uh, when it comes to my dad, I Inever really wanted to be
estranged from my dad.
Um, but I knew that like my myparents come as a whole their
package, uh package deal.
They do everything together,they go everywhere together,

(33:20):
they do everything together.
Uh so uh and my dad he can'tread well, so if I were to send
messages, she would have to, youknow, be in there.
But um my mom and my dad weretwo totally different people.
My mom was basically the oneparenting us.
So that was basically our onlyparenting that we really had was

(33:45):
really crappy parenting.
You know, you deserve all thisshit.
You know, we don't deserve youdon't deserve for us to defend
you or protect you or teach youhow to defend yourself or make
you feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
So, from from your perspective, was your dad
victimized by your mom in thesame way that you and your
siblings were?

SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
I feel like he was in a lot of ways because my dad
did.
I feel like my mother enabledhim in a lot of ways, and she
also uh took advantage of hisweaknesses.
She took advantage of the factthat he was illiterate.
She was the one who controlledall the finances, she was the
one who controlled the money.
Um, my dad would not take aphone call of business of any

(34:24):
kind.
He used to get angry when peoplewould call.
And I used to say, Why does itmake you so mad?
Well, that's mommy's business.
It's like, but you don't have tobe angry.
It's just a phone call.
And looking back on it as anadult, I know why.
It's because my father feltinadequate.

(34:45):
He felt like he wasn't enough.
And my mother made him feel likeshit every day because she never
I always said, Dad, why don'tyou go to school and take a few
classes?
No, we need the money, we needthe money, we need I need to
work, I need to work.
I said, But you can take classesand you don't have to miss work.
And I can help teach you, likemy dad felt it took a big hit to

(35:09):
his ego when his nine-year-olddaughter offered to help him
read better, like to teach himto read better.

SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
And um his pride got in the way of that, like it
always did, even even when hedid have time, even when he did
have the excuse to to learn, hejust he really didn't.
My dad did not take change verywell with anything.
Um, and so uh when I separatedmyself, I had a lot of grief

(35:41):
because I was not onlyseparating myself from people
who'd hurt me and I was dealingwith that, the pain, but I was
separated from people I didn'twant to separate myself from
because even though thingsweren't good with me and my dad
when I was younger, when we weregrowing up, he wasn't a good
dad.
He wasn't.
I'm just gonna say that.
Like he did the best he could,but he wasn't the dad that we
needed him to be.
Um, and he knew that, but wedidn't want to make him feel so

(36:03):
bad about it, but we wanted togive him an opportunity when we
were adults, like, hey, we canstill spend time with each
other.
Hey, can we talk now?
You know, hey, can we have aconversation?
Hey, can we talk about youranger rather than just throwing
it out there and pretending thatit didn't happen?

SPEAKER_03 (36:20):
Do you feel like you know him?

SPEAKER_01 (36:21):
I feel like I know my dad, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (36:23):
Okay, because you you the way you speak about your
mom, I mean, it sounds like yougot her number pretty good, but
I was just sort of curious tohear I know them both in
different ways.

SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
Okay.
My dad, I didn't knowconversely.
I I I could tell a lot about himby his behavior because he he uh
was a very emotional, like uh hehad a lot of outbursts.
Um he did cry on occasion.
He uh not like cry like he criedwhen, you know, when something

(36:53):
really terrible happened or whenhe really got upset.
So he had emotion, he hadempathy for others, but he
didn't talk.
And my mom kept saying it wasbecause he was abused, it was
because he was abused, and Isaid, Yeah, but he's kind of
treating us in a way that makesus feel unloved and unsafe

(37:14):
sometimes.
And my mother always just said,you know, he can't talk about
it, he can't talk about it, butat the same time, she was
enabling the behavior, and sofor years I had a lot of anger
and resentment towards my dadbecause my mother was enabling
the behavior and she was alsoalienating us from our dad.

(37:36):
Uh sometimes it's like, oh, wewant to go tell dad about this,
and no, don't bother him rightnow.

SPEAKER_03 (37:41):
So, I mean, you got to identify kind of what made
him tick in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 (37:44):
What made him tick when I when I asked him?
And how he responded to certainthings in certain situations,
then we knew how he felt aboutit because of his reaction.

SPEAKER_03 (37:51):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (37:52):
So even though we didn't talk much, I still knew
my dad.

SPEAKER_03 (37:54):
Okay.
Yeah, I would just Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because observing behavioris one thing.

SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
I was just wondering because I talk more about my mom
because I have more angertowards more of my anger now, is
more well, I don't even have alot of anger towards my mom
right now, per se.
It's just more like I know thatshe has a personality disorder,
and I know that this is who sheis, and she can't really change
herself, and she's getting oldernow and it's getting worse, and
I've kind of just accepted itfor what it is.

(38:22):
Um but with my dad, it's a bitdifferent because I had all that
anger and resentment when I wasyoung because I didn't
understand everything that wasgoing on.
And when I got older, Irealized, you know, there were a
lot of chances that I I couldhave talked to my dad, and my
dad would have listened to me,but my mother said, Don't talk
to him.
Don't address the city.

SPEAKER_03 (38:43):
So you didn't get to have the talks like, hey dad,
what did you want to be when yougrew up?
Like, what are your hopes anddreams for the future?
Like, none of thoseconversations.

SPEAKER_00 (38:51):
To this day, I don't even know the answer to that
question.

SPEAKER_03 (38:54):
So, I mean, it's it's kind of hard to figure out
entirely like what you're allabout, even if you can't even
really understand where you comefrom.

SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
It I did not know my dad.
Like when I was a kid, I did notknow him.
Like, I did not know him.
Like you said, I didn't know Iknew he was colorblind.
I knew that.
I knew he was colorblind, and II had there was a few stories
from when he was a kid, but um,yeah, I never had sat and had
very many talks with my dad, buthe talked about being in the

(39:24):
army, not about being inVietnam, but he talked about
being in the army.
He loved being in the army, likeit gave himself discipline and
confidence and he was proud ofthe experience.

SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
He felt like the kind of person he wanted to be,
I suppose.
Going to Vietnam changed allthat though.

SPEAKER_01 (39:43):
And then he came back feeling um like how you
would expect a Vietnam vet tocome home.

SPEAKER_00 (39:51):
And uh that was very difficult.

SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
And so I understood why my mom was creating that.
Space, but um she used that asan excuse way too much, and so
we grew up having no father.
He was there, but he wasn'tthere and have tissues.
Um he was there, but he wasn'tthere, and and that was just as
that was very painful because hewas it he he wasn't even

(40:20):
stopping to think, hey may maybemy kids need attention today.
He wasn't even thinking about usat all.
We weren't even as far as heconcerned, he's can he was
concerned, we weren't even thereunless we made noise.
Then we were there and then hedidn't like us, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (40:37):
So I guess in in the way that your your mom had
created a uh a situation whereyour dad was more of an
environmental influence, youprobably were much the same to
him, also because of the wayyour mom approached things.

SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
And be and I understand PTSD and I understand
being triggered, and and Iunderstand uh I have kids myself
when they make noises and stuff,it's like stop, you know, like
he lived through this stuff.
We lived through this stuff,yeah.
So I I get all that, but henever got counseling, so he
never had good coping skills,nobody ever taught him that

(41:12):
stuff, and they were never ableto communicate with us what was
what our dad was experiencingbecause my mother was against
anything that had to do withmental health or psychiatric
help or counseling or anything,especially if it was detached
from the Christian church.

SPEAKER_02 (41:30):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (41:32):
And the Christian church.
I don't want to get into it toomuch, but the churches that we
were involved in, they did notdo things well.
And um any counseling that youwould have received at the
churches that we would have goneto, it was more like slapping a
band-aid on stuff and noproblems got solved, and then
you were out like a bunch ofmoney.

(41:54):
And then you were expected to,you know, and then then these
then these people, these pastorsthat you knew were trying to
counsel you, so they're goingoff of what they already know
you or know about you, and thenthey start manipulating you, and
uh, so then it was like well,she would take me these quacks,

(42:16):
and then I would think I don'tlike trust these people, I don't
want to go to counseling.
But then I when I was older, Ihad asked her if I could go.
I think I talked about thatearlier, and then she said no,
and and because I knew I reallyneeded, I was like, I need
something.
I was like, maybe I just didn'tgo enough, you know, like
because I was so upset andoverwhelmed.

SPEAKER_03 (42:34):
I'm getting a little bit off track here, but well um
let me let me drag you backwhere I want you to go.

SPEAKER_01 (42:41):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (42:42):
If your dad was sitting here right now, what do
you want him to hear from you?

(43:12):
If your dad was sitting hereright now, what do you want him
to hear from you?
I know it's hard, but I thinkthis is something that all of us
have struggled with in differentways that people are listening.

SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
Well, he knows that I love him.
I just want him to know thatlike the estrangement wasn't
really his fault.

SPEAKER_01 (43:54):
Um he definitely didn't help during the last
months when he was going withwhatever my mother uh said that
they should do regarding mysister.
He just kind of always did withwhat my mom wanted because he
loved my mom.
And so I felt like he wanted tostay with her because she always

(44:17):
took care of things because hecouldn't do it himself, and uh
he was kind of codependent on mymom, very codependent on my mom,
I should say.
And so uh I would say I don't Idon't blame you.
I would say it's more has to dowith my with mom and you know

(44:39):
the oldest.

SPEAKER_00 (44:41):
I would say get your butt into counseling and by
yourself and listen and openyour mouth and don't just say
what's nice.
Pull out all that stupid garbageyou don't want to talk about,
and it's gonna hurt.

(45:05):
That's the only way to getthrough it.
You can't just stop in thewoods, you have to keep going.
It'd take you forever to chopdown all those trees.
You just have to just likeacknowledge everything, look at
it, and then keep going.
Because what I want more thananything, more than I want a

(45:25):
relationship with my dad, I wantmy dad to get the healing that
he needs.
Because he's never gonna be thedad that I need him to be if he
doesn't have that healing.
And that goes for like allstrange families, like
counseling, counseling,counseling.

SPEAKER_01 (45:42):
If you see a counselor that you don't agree
with, or they make you feel bad,or they make you feel like shit,
or they're saying somethingstupid, get another one.
You don't have to accept thefirst one that you come across.
It's like you gotta date awhile.
It took me a few tries to findone that I liked and who
understood my train of thoughtand who was good at pulling
things out, but it's like youhave to go to counseling and do

(46:06):
it and do it with someone that'snot attached to any religious
group because you don't wantanyone steering you in any
direction.
You need to go into thedirection of healing that you
need to go into, and it mightnot be in the direction of your
religion.
And I'm not saying that that youknow counseling's gonna pull you

(46:28):
away from that.
I'm just saying you need tofocus on what you know, your
your own personal stuff asidefrom your own religious.

SPEAKER_03 (46:34):
Like a counselor's gonna be impartial.

SPEAKER_01 (46:36):
Yeah, it's he's gotta be impartial.
It's it's I mean, it's okay tosee counselors within your
religion, especially if yourfaith has something to do with
what's going on in your life.
But when it just comes to likethe basic emotional stuff, find
an impartial person because whenyou find an impartial person,
then you just get someone whojust listens to you.

SPEAKER_02 (46:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
They're not going to say, well, well, in this verse,
this is how this is what youshould do, and this is what you
should say, and this is how youshould feel.
It's like, but those thingsdon't really line up because
I've tried all those things.
And uh, or those didn't work inin in my cases, and nothing
lined up in my life, norelationships started to tick or

(47:19):
started to work, and I didn'tstart to feel comfortable in my
own skin and started until Iwent to counseling.
And so that would just be what Iwould tell my dad, go to
frickin' counseling.
It's gonna hurt, but it's gonnabe good.

SPEAKER_03 (47:32):
Okay, so it's Mother's Day.

SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 (47:36):
What would you say to your mom?
I know that's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_00 (47:43):
I wish I could say happy Mother's Day, but it's
never been happy.
You never made me feel goodenough.
I can't ever say that I washappy to have you as my mother.
And that hurts for me to saythat.

(48:05):
But I still love you, and Iunderstand that you have some
things that you can't control,and you had things that happened
to you that were terrible.
But I can't be around youanymore.
But that doesn't change any ofmy love for any of my family,

(48:27):
but I have to do what's rightfor myself because I have my own
family, and I can't allow any ofthis stuff to leak out on them
because I love them too much.
And I want what's best for them.
I don't want them growing up theway I grew up.
It's bullshit.
We have to do better for ourkids.

(48:47):
It's bullshit.
It's not about the fucking iPadsand the fucking what we buy them
or the college degrees.

SPEAKER_01 (48:54):
It's about listening to them and helping them develop
into the person that they'resupposed to be on their own, not
who we think they should be orwhat their religion thinks they
should be.
That is so damaging when you tryand mold someone into something
that they're not, it's damaging.
You just have to just let peopledo their thing and just listen

(49:15):
to them and take them by thehand and say, I'm with you.
I'm right here.
Yeah, we're gonna screw up,we're gonna fuck up sometimes,
but we're gonna get back up andwe're gonna keep going and we're
gonna talk about it, and we'regonna fix things.
We're not gonna let things sit.

SPEAKER_00 (49:35):
Open your goddamn mouth.

unknown (49:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (49:41):
And speak the truth and stop lying.
It doesn't do any good.

SPEAKER_03 (49:51):
So what kind of mom do you think you are because of
your upbringing and because ofyour experiences?

SPEAKER_00 (49:59):
Honestly.

SPEAKER_01 (50:02):
Um I definitely don't feel like I'm the mother I
want to be or should be.
A lot of that is, you know, Isnap at my kids a lot.
I have PTSD and I get anxiousand uh I want quiet immediately.
And with four kids, you don'tget quiet easily, even with
effort.

(50:24):
I love my kids, but you know, II understand uh my dad had those
same things too.
So I get a bit of both uh bothsides of the spectrum here.
I so I'm able to kind of catchmyself.
I'm better at that now, now thatI've been out of that

(50:45):
environment for a few years andI've been in counseling and I've
been rubbing up against otherpeople who have been going
through the same thing.
Um before the estrangement, Iwas a terrible parent.
I was basically like my motherand my father.
All the negative things about myparents, I was.
There was no positive things.

(51:08):
And uh lot of the negativity wasjust because I was stuck in deep
depression because uh I wasn'tbeing accepted for who I was.
Um And even when I felt like Iwas doing exactly what they

(51:31):
wanted, I still didn't feelaccepted.
And so I didn't I started tothink about that, and I I did
not want my kids feeling likethat.
And so I had to start reallydoing research and reading
stories and books and figuringout how to parent my children.
I didn't really know how toparent them the way that I
needed to be parented, and sothen I started in counseling, I

(51:53):
started going through um what dothey call like you know your
inner child parenting,self-parenting your inner child.
And I thought that it was reallyfunny and goofy at first.
But when I started doing that, Istarted, you know, whenever I
made a mistake, I'd be like,okay, I would think what I would

(52:17):
normally say, and then I wouldcatch myself, and then I would
say, no, it's okay.
It's like it's all right, justpick it back up and start again.
And that gentleness that I gavemyself almost scared me because
I'd never experienced that.
I'd never even been kind tomyself in my own head, and I'd

(52:37):
realized that.
And I was like, no wonder I'm ashitty parent.
I can't even be nice to myself.
And so I had to go through allthis self-parenting, and I had
to do it in a hurry because mykids needed me, and they needed
me to be a good mom, and theyneeded me there because they
were going through grief too,because they went through all

(52:58):
this too.
They had bad experiences with myparents and other family
members, and uh uh they weregoing through some trauma
themselves, and uh they weredisclosing things that had
happened to them um over timethat as they got older, they
were able to be more expressiveand uh were able to disclose

(53:20):
those things.
Uh, and then it was more I kindof felt like I was on the same
level with my kids.
Okay, now we all throw fitssometimes, but at least we're
talking about our problems,right?
So it kind of got to a pointwhere I was able to communicate
with my kids and say, hey,instead of me, you know, acting

(53:42):
this way, why don't we just talkabout it?
And so my kids and I startedtalking about things more, and
uh that was very interesting,and it didn't always go good
because it was a struggle, butuh we worked hard at it, and
it's still a work in progress,but I'm finding myself when I

(54:06):
look at my parenting now, Istill see a lot of stress, I
still see a lot of anxiety, butI'm definitely like the way that
I talk to them is different, theway that I listen to them is
different.
I try to acknowledge all oftheir everything good that they
did because I was used to allthe negative things being

(54:31):
brought to attention.
Either, oh, my best talents werebrought to attention and my
worst traits were brought toattention.
Everything in between, you weregone.
You were nothing.
You were either the golden childor you were the scapegoat, you
were the piece of shit in thehouse.

SPEAKER_03 (54:46):
But in between, that's where real life is lived.

SPEAKER_01 (54:48):
Exactly.
And and that was where I waslonely and afraid all the time.
And I didn't want my kidsfeeling like that.
And so whenever I would catchmyself parenting, and then I
would be like, okay, where isthis coming from?
And then I would get triggeredmyself going back to this
childhood memory where you knowmy parents did something wrong
and it traumatized me orwhatever.

(55:10):
And then we're like, okay, stop,don't do that.
Like, let's change this.
What should have happened?
Then I had to get myself up tospeed and think like a fucking
35-year-old woman again insteadof like a seven-year-old.
I had to grow up really, reallyfast.
And uh, so then I started, okay,what should have happened?

(55:33):
Well, definitely mom would havestepped in and said something.
Okay, well, let's do that.
I didn't always know what thatlooked like.
I didn't always say the rightthings to my kids.
I didn't always, it didn'talways come out right.
And then sometimes there wouldbe like percussions from that,
and then I would have to bedealing with that, and I would
get overwhelmed again and upset.

SPEAKER_03 (55:55):
You sort of parenting it from the
perspective of a 70-year-old.

SPEAKER_01 (55:58):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (55:58):
Yeah, yes, because emotionally I was, because I
hadn't even been allowed to talkabout my feelings yet.
And it was so frustrating, butit's like now I'm able to talk
about it, and I get veryemotional with my kids, and we
all cry and we talk, and butthey know that like it's okay to
talk about it though.

SPEAKER_01 (56:16):
They talk about and it's okay, and we're solving
problems, we're not creatingmore.
Um, they still have habits ofdoing that.
They're still kids.

SPEAKER_03 (56:29):
No, but they're kids that are growing up with the
kind of parents that you didn'thave.

SPEAKER_01 (56:34):
Yeah.
And that that to me sounds likeit's better than the first
option.

SPEAKER_03 (56:39):
Well, it's it's a big win.

SPEAKER_01 (56:40):
I mean Right.
I know that like I made a lot ofmistakes in the beginning, but
the fact that I'm aware of thesethings now and I'm correcting
them as I go, it feels so muchbetter.
And my kids are starting to seeit.
They have better relationshipswith me in different ways

(57:02):
because I'm not like, oh, stopcomplaining.
It's like, okay, no, no, no,this is bothering her.
Like, I would have hated if myparents would have said that to
me.
You know, just you find yourselfsaying things that your parents
said that you wish you'd neversay to your kid.
And I hate that.
And I grew up thinking, I'mnever gonna say it.
No, you fucking do all the time.
And so I had to start practicingsaying other things, say other

(57:22):
things.
I had to say other things tomyself.
I practiced saying other thingsto myself.
Then, then by the time you knowI had that good habit
established with myself, thenit's like as soon as my kids,
you know, they do somethinglike, you know what?
Thank you for doing that.
I really appreciate that.
Thank you for cleaning up thatmess.
Like, you didn't even do thatand you picked that up.
That was really nice of you, andyou didn't you thought no one

(57:44):
was looking.
Like, I just really appreciatethat you took the time to help.
That was really thoughtful ofyou.
Um because it's like you said,it's those little everyday
things.
We didn't even have that.
We didn't have thank you fordoing this.
It was just it was expected.

(58:06):
Yeah, you clean up after us,don't touch our stuff.
Don't clean the house because wedon't like it clean, we want it
dirty.
But if it's dirty, we're gonnacomplain to you and make you
clean it, and it's the wholecycle back over again.
So it's those things, and it'slike as a mom, I was like, okay,

(58:29):
we're not going in thatdirection.
So I had to develop even justlike different habits like
around the house and things likethat.
Like you said, those everydaythings.
And um, I talked to other momsand I talked to other people,
and I had to learn how to dosimple household things that my
mother never did.
And uh it was a challenge, butbut then I started becoming this

(58:54):
person that I never was, and Istarted to like who I was.
I didn't like myself at firstbecause it was all grief and it
was all horror and it was allbad memories and bad feelings
and feelings of shame and guiltand confusion, and I didn't like
myself.
But once I got all that out, andI started to be kind to myself
and I started to tolerate my ownnatural behavior.

(59:18):
God, I was snot dripping from mynose.
I'm a crier.
Y'all know I'm a crier.
Anyway, I had to relearn how todo things, and I had to learn
how to like love myself.
And it was only when I startedlearning to love myself that I

(59:38):
was able to love my kids.
And this is why you need to goto counseling, because you need
to learn to love yourself beforeyou can love anybody else.
I really do think that's true.
I think it's really hard toreally love someone if you don't
even love yourself.
If you're loving someone, if ifyou're giving all your love to
someone else and none of it toyourself, it's gonna eventually
kill you.
You have to establish self careand self love because if you

(59:59):
don't have the Things you'regonna project whatever you're
feeling, and um that's whathappens with narcissists is that
they have this deep sense ofshame or guilt, or whether they
remember something or not, theycan't expose it, and so they're

(01:00:19):
always putting a band-aid on itto cover up, you know, they have
to keep elevating the ego, keepelevating the ego, you know, and
so you grow up in thatenvironment and then you feel
like you're nothing.
You have to learn to loveyourself.
So I don't know, just like keepsaying it again, just go to

(01:00:40):
counseling.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:41):
I think that we're out of tissues and you're out of
things to say.
I think I'm out of tears, too.
Probably a good place to wrapthings up today.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:51):
I don't want to keep rambling.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:52):
And and I have to say, like every everything you
said, I think is on point.
You know, whether it'snarcissistic parents or absentee
parents or just any kind ofasshole parents, it's not enough
to look at them and identify theproblems.
You identify how they'veaffected you, you get your ass
into counseling, you get somehelp, break the cycle, be the

(01:01:13):
parent for your kids that youdidn't have, maybe.
I I think this is all solidadvice.
So I want to thank you forgiving me the opportunity to
sort of take the uh the hostrole on your show.
It's been an absolute honorhaving you as a guest on your
own deal here.

(01:01:34):
It's been wonderful talking toyou.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:36):
I have to say it's been very interesting being in
the hot seat.
I have to give a lot of creditto my guests who have already
been on the show and my futureguests.
It is not easy doing this.
You know, thank you to everyonethus far, including yourself.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:52):
I can't seem to get off the show.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:56):
I know it's just it's very therapeutic.
Um, thank you for co-hosting onWhen the Bow Breaks.
Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:08):
If you'd like to contact us, you can do so by
sending an email to WTBpodcastat gmail.com.
Thank you for listening to Whenthe Bow Breaks.