October 14, 2024 • 28 mins
Coach, author and speaker Janice Selbie shares her experience of divorcing her religion and the family estrangement that soon followed.
- https://www.divorcing-religion.com/
- https://www.shamelesssexuality.org/
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGhyTXTIM9kdTJ1jW-Ckb5g
People can write to Janice at Janice@divorcing-religion.com
Her book entitled Divorcing Religion: A Memoir and Survival Handbook https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DP78TZZF
BIO
Janice Selbie grew up in a Pentecostal family. While at Bible college, she took a deep dive down the fundamentalist rabbit hole and aligned herself with Holdeman Mennonites. She started wearing a head-covering and disavowed jewelry, makeup, and all things secular.
Around age 40, Janice divorced both her husband and her religion. She went back to school to become a Registered Professional Counsellor and now has a thriving practice as a religious trauma recovery coach.
She is the founder and host of CORT: The Conference on Religious Trauma, and the Shameless Sexuality: Life After Purity Culture conference (happening in Seattle May of 2025).
In her spare time, Janice hosts the Divorcing Religion Podcast and serves as president of her local atheists, skeptics, and humanists association in BC, Canada.
Stay tuned to the episode for upcoming event information!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
So I'm really excited.
So let's get into it.
Janice, why don't you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
what made you kind of pop up onhere on this show?
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on your show.
This is just a delight to get tospend some more time with you.
And uh I'm a registeredprofessional counselor and a
religious trauma recovery coachin British Columbia.
And of course, I see people allaround the world who are
recovering from religioustrauma.
And I grew up in a veryreligious Pentecostal family.
(00:47):
And then I married someone thatmy pastor set me up with.
And uh and then we ended upmoving to uh a small town on the
prairies for him to attend aBible college.
And while we were there, that'swhen I really did a deep dive
into fundamentalism because Isaw these ladies coming into the
(01:09):
grocery store in our small town,and they were always dressed
ever so modestly in these long,you know, skirts and and and
always had their hair covered,no makeup or anything.
And so I thought, what's goingon there?
I didn't I didn't recognizethem.
And my husband at the time said,Oh, well, you know, they are
actually a type of Mennonite uhcalled Holdeman Mennonites.
(01:32):
We have those folks in Canada,and he said that it's actually
in the New Testament whatthey're doing, how how carefully
they're dressing modestly andcovering their hair.
And that was shocking to mebecause um I thought I knew the
Bible pretty well, and I didn'tthink there was a mandate still
for women to cover their heads.
(01:52):
So I read the Bible and theconcordance and all the Bible
books that explain the Bible,and I decided, oh, these people,
they must be really holy.
They are following even morerules, and I love rules because
uh when I was growing up, I hada really volatile religious uh
father who was also anarcissist, and he could be um
(02:16):
scary at times, and so ruleswere really important to
recognize and to follow.
So then I was like, Yay, morerules.
Yeah, so I got out my glue gun,and that's right.
I got out my glue gun and I mademy first head covering and I got
rid of all my pants and myshorts and my jewelry, and even
stopped wearing my wedding ringat the time and decided, you
(02:36):
know, I was gonna move forwardin this new holy way.
And so I did for a number of umyears, and uh then one day it
all just stopped working for me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
The bow broke, yeah, right?
That's kind of what the show isabout.
Something's about to break andget too heavy and fall.
So tell me about that.
Like, so you went from goinginto Bible college as like what
a normally dressed person, andthen how long did it take for
you to to recognize these womenand adopt what they were doing?
(03:12):
How long did it take for that tokind of happen?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Well, we were probably on the campus already
for two, maybe two years orsomething at that point.
I was the president of thestudent-wides fellowship, all
this kind of stuff.
So I was relatively normal uh inthat setting.
Right.
Um, but uh then once I once Ilearned this new exciting truth
about more rules to follow, youknow, within 24 hours, I was
(03:37):
like, BAM, that's it.
Because, you know, I can't beprone to extremes.
Uh, and certainly um that was acase where that happened.
And I felt that I was beingentirely obedient um to
scripture.
Um, and I did ask my husband'spermission at the time.
And he's such a we're notmarried anymore, but he's a
really pretty laid back, laidback kind of chill fellow.
(04:00):
And uh he certainly never putany um pressure on me that he
wanted me to to do that.
But he did say he was fine if Ifelt personally like I needed to
do that.
Then he gave me his uhpermission.
And and I had hoped that wearinga head covering would remind me
uh to submit because I have sometrouble with submitting.
(04:23):
We do, don't we?
Some others might recognizethat.
Um, and so I really had uh youknow the best of intentions and
uh and I wore a head coveringfor a number of years, and I
also um you know startedhomeschooling the children at
that time, just really goingbecoming more uh isolated and
(04:43):
insulated in my views.
Um and then uh eventually heasked me to stop wearing the
head covering because he waspastoring and felt like it was
creating a division in thechurch or just putting a barrier
there between me and the otherladies who didn't.
Although I never told otherpeople that they needed to do
it.
I took it as my personal uhconviction.
(05:05):
Um, but so then we had a yearthat was very difficult with
lots of terrible things thatwent wrong.
Uh, and then the last thingbeing our youngest daughter uh
received a life-threateningdiagnosis that would be chronic.
And that was just it for me.
That was the bow broke rightthere because I was like, I
don't know anyone who's tried sohard to live according to the
(05:29):
Bible, uh, as I had been doing.
And then it just seemed like aconstant barrage of everything
going wrong.
Um, and so that was it for me.
And I gave myself permission tostart looking in other belief
systems and religions.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
So, what was going through your head when you know
you you had said I I did allthis work, I did, I changed all
these things about myself tofollow God more than I was
following him.
And now this, now my kid issick.
Like, yeah.
So you said the bow broke.
(06:08):
So what was kind of going inyour head?
You're like, yeah, have donethis all for nothing.
Is God punishing me or is hejust not there?
Like, what was what were youthinking?
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Yeah, excellent, excellent question, because
certainly that was uh the thewhole concept of am I being
punished, you know, those sortsof things were going through my
head.
And then there were other someother Christian people who I'm
sure were well-meaning, um, whoalso were, you know, you need to
(06:37):
pray more, you need to fastmore, whatever kind of stuff.
Uh and just the idea that um,yeah, it was potentially
something I had done.
And then what really snapped itfor me was I overheard my
daughter, and she was just 10 atthe time, I overheard her
praying and asking God what youknow, would he show her what sin
(06:59):
she had done so she wouldn't uhshe wouldn't be sick anymore.
Like it was, oh, it was heart uhbreaking, but I wasn't um I
wasn't ready to uh kind of throwaway God already.
What I basically thought was Godmay be out there, he may be
somewhere, but he's not herewhere I thought he was.
(07:22):
And so then I I did a deep diveinto um the new age movement and
had lots of fun studying thingsthat were formerly forbidden,
you know, going to psychics andastrology and looking, learning
about reincarnation, all thisstuff.
It was really exciting.
And then I felt I had a newcommunity there because I didn't
have my Christian community.
But then after a few years um inthat community, I there were
(07:45):
cracks in the facade there aswell.
Um, and it got me to a pointwhere I thought, you know what?
I I'm actually quite fine livingmy life.
I have a code of ethics, I don'tneed to worry about any God or
anything else out there topunish me.
I'm just gonna live my life.
And that was really when I wasstepping into my own um freedom.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
I like that.
You ours, believe it or not, ourjourneys are a little similar.
I felt like before I left myreligion that I also became a
little bit more extreme in someways.
I felt like that was the correctpath.
Um, and then yeah, like yousaid, when I did that, it really
didn't improve things and itdidn't reassure me in my faith
(08:32):
anymore.
I actually felt like I was doingit for nothing and there's no
point to this.
And as I studied more, studiedother religions, uh, you know,
exposed myself to things thatwere real and true, um, it
became easier for me to seethose contradictions that I had
adopted throughout my lifebecause I was raised in it.
(08:52):
Um so when you realized thatthis wasn't the way that you
wanted to live, was it kind oflike an overnight thing or was
it kind of progressive that youjust kind of gradually found
your footing as an individualwithout the um the God barriers,
I guess I would call it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, it was a progression.
I did not like just wake up andsay, well, that's it, it's all
wrong.
Because it was even I had togive myself permission to start
exploring uh other ideologiesbecause I had been born and
raised and um, you know,indoctrinated from childhood as
(09:33):
well into my own religiousbeliefs.
And at the time we were livingacross the street from a used
bookstore.
And so one day my husband andthe kids were at school, and I
thought, I'm gonna go over tothat bookstore.
And this was in the 90s, and sothere was a room at the back of
the store, and it had a longdark velvet curtain to the
(09:56):
floor, and over top of it itsaid occult and alternative
religions.
And I was like, I'm going inthere, I'm going in there
because I psyched myself up andI went and I took a big breath
and I opened the curtain andthen lightning did not strike
me.
And so I went inside and Iquickly closed the curtain
because I didn't want anyone tosee me.
(10:16):
And I'm scanning the bookshelvesto look for anything that seemed
like some kind of textbook, youknow, not nothing, nothing that
would immediately send me tohell.
And so I grabbed a book and Iwent to the cashier and I
actually asked her to put it ina brown paper bag because I
didn't want people seeing that Ihad this.
And then I took it and I ranback across the street to our
(10:39):
home and I hid it in the safestplace, my underwear drawer.
God himself would not even lookin my underwear drawer.
Uh, and then it took uh, youknow, over a number of weeks um
that I read through that book inprivate.
I didn't talk to my husband atthe time about what was going
on.
He by that time wasn't reallyinterested in coming to church
(11:01):
and the kids I was having todrag to church.
And so the last time I went tochurch, I went by myself and I
just wept through the servicebecause the the hymns and the
choruses, they just turned tosawdust in my mouth because I
felt very abandoned by God andby my church family.
Um, but so it was a progressionof uh walking out, taking small
(11:27):
steps on my own um to figure outmy own beliefs.
SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
So, what happened when you walked away from all of
this?
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Yeah, what happened next?
I I would say it in some waysvery little.
Like I was shocked.
I thought because I had been soinvolved in my church community
for so many years, I thought wewould I would be getting phone
calls and you know this sort ofthing.
And nope, nope, no, it wascrickets.
It was like one or two people,one person uh called and and
(12:04):
said, Well, you are taking yourkids to hell.
Um, but nobody else did.
And then I I plainly rememberone time uh breathing a great
sigh of relief when Idetermined, you know what?
I think hell is made up.
I don't actually think hell is areal place.
And then I always felt so goodabout that.
(12:25):
And I went to sleep and I wokeup in the middle of the night
and sat up, and I'm like, oh myGod, if hell is not real, then
maybe heaven is not real.
And that was then I'm likegasping and breathing into a
paper, having a fit thinkingthis.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, it was it was reallyscary.
(12:46):
And so I called my big brother.
So I have two older brothers,and they are not religious at
all.
Um, and I called the one thatI'm quite close to and I
explained my concerns.
And he said, I've I've beenthere, I know what you're going
through.
He said, Here's a video I'mgonna recommend that you watch
on YouTube.
(13:07):
And I watched it and I felt somuch better after um watching
it, and I'll share that if youwant, but it was really helpful
for me.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So, in terms of your family, you said that two of
your brothers don't reallypractice anymore.
Did you did any of your familyrelationships suffer when you
left the church?
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah, so all my siblings had uh walked away from
religion.
Um, my mom would still considerherself, oh, what does she say?
Oh, a woman of faith.
I got my air quotes quote, awoman of faith there.
But my my dad has always been uhvery fundamentalist and um quite
a narcissist as well, just not agreat combination.
Uh, and so I knew that therewould be issues when I finally
(13:54):
told him um that I didn'tbelieve.
But I felt like I had to tellhim because at that time we were
still tied in fairly closely tomy parents.
You know, the kids were like 10and 12 or whatever it was.
And so we would do some familymeals and stuff like that.
And so I finally told my dad,and sure enough, he started to
(14:15):
cry and you know, make a bigscene and all this stuff.
And I was like, Well, you know,this is you're just gonna have
to deal with it because it's me,you can't make me believe.
I said, I can't, I wish I couldmake myself believe again, but I
can't.
Yeah, you know, it's just oncewhat's what's that quote about
uh oh, once the mind has beenstretched from its uh original
(14:35):
dimensions, it can never return,you never go back there.
Um, and so then I had said to mydad, So I don't want you
mentioning God, you know, if youcome over to our house, we're
not gonna be praying.
And I don't want you to pray inmy house.
You can pray at your house, buttoo much.
And he just had uh too muchtrouble um with my um requests,
(14:59):
right?
My boundaries.
He didn't like that becausenarcissists don't like
boundaries at all.
Uh and then so then eventuallyuh what ended up being um what
ended up happening was going nocontact with him.
And that was about uh maybe fiveyears ago, four or five years
ago.
And uh I'm not the only siblingwho has gone that route.
(15:22):
Um and it ended up being just amassive relief not having to
constantly have interactionswith a narcissistic parent who
is also uh a fundamentalist.
So now my mom, I'm pretty closeto, um, and my parents are in
their 80s, of course.
Uh, and mom is uh she's veryhappy for me that I'm living a
(15:46):
life that I love and doing workthat's meaningful to me.
She doesn't quite grasp it.
She says, Oh, well, you mustwork with maybe you work with
people who grew up in Jehovah'sWitness families or Mormon
families or whatever, becauseshe thinks, you know, those are
every it's a cult.
If it's not what you believe,it's a cult.
(16:06):
Um, and uh, and then so youknow, I do work with some of
those folks.
And I said, Yeah, I do work withsome of those um folks.
And she says, Well, my Jesuswould never, no one would be
traumatized.
I'm like, Oh my god, have youlooked at your children?
But okay, we just don't have togo there.
Okay, there are lots of otherthings we could we can talk
about and still have a lovelyclose relationship.
(16:28):
And so we do.
And and uh my father's in care,so my parents don't live
together, so it's not a big dealum that way when we when we
visit each other.
Um, but so there were, you know,there were losses, and then um
my marriage eventually also um Iwasn't able to hold on to that,
but I will say I'm tremendousfriends with my uh ex-husband
(16:49):
today, and uh our daughters uhhave grown up and left the faith
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
So it it worked out, yeah, that's good.
Yeah, that's the hard thingabout estrangement is that it's
kind of bittersweet.
Uh for some people it can bebittersweet, for some people it
is just bitter.
Uh so for some people it isreally sweet, and for the
majority of us, it'sbittersweet.
I remember, you know,considering my parents a lot
when I walked away from thefaith because, you know, like
(17:19):
when you said you told yourfather and he cried and you
know, he was really sad becauseour parents, they actually
believe that we will go to hell,and that is very scary for them.
They did all this work todedicate us in the church and to
bring us to church and to raiseus right and all for what for
nothing.
I and then they might haveself-guilt about well, what did
(17:39):
I do wrong as a parent?
And so I I can I I am very awareof what it's like for a parent
to have to do that and have tosee their kid grow up in not a
way that they raised them to be,and to worry about um about
their soul, about their youknow, their existence in the
(18:01):
future or heaven.
Um, and so when you tell me thatyour mom, even though she
doesn't quite understandeverything, that she's happy for
you, that makes me feel good.
That gives me hope that maybe,maybe some of my family members
might be happy for you.
Oh, yeah.
Knowing that like I'm doingsomething that I really love and
I am happy and I am like, youknow, settled in Bellingham and
(18:22):
I love it here.
And it's just great.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Oh, yeah.
And and mom told me umeventually later that she she
had concerns when I startedwearing a head covering.
She didn't she didn't like thatbecause she to her that was
going in a too legalisticfundamentalist of a direction.
She's always been way more, waymore laid back of the two um
(18:46):
parents.
Um so one was super uptight andone was much more um chill.
So my mom's just kind of like,yeah, Jesus is great.
He loves everyone, so I loveeveryone.
You know, that's the kind ofperson that she is, and so then
it makes it much easier.
Um, and you know, even as she'sin her 80s, and you know, I hope
that she has another 20 years,but we'll just have to wait and
(19:08):
see.
Um, but if there comes a timewhen it would be comforting for
her if she's lying on a hospitalbed somewhere, and it would be
comforting if I sang hymns toher.
I will sing those hymns to her,I will do whatever helps make
her comfortable as her time umdraws to a close.
(19:28):
I don't have a problem with thatat all.
It doesn't mean I believe it,but it does mean that I love my
mom a great deal and I want tocomfort her.
I don't want her uh enteringinto a time of existential
crisis like I went through, notwhen she's this close to the
end.
SPEAKER_01 (19:43):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Everybody just kind of wantspeace.
Yeah, you know, and some ofthese religions give people
peace, and it does the oppositefor others.
It's just that's a reality.
And if we can figure out how toget along despite the fact that
we have completely differentviews or you know if we can
(20:07):
respect those boundaries then wecan still build families and we
can still build thoseconnections and help each other
and take care of each other andlove each other.
There's no reason why we can'tdo that.
You know, there shouldn't be youknow so I I'm really happy that
you shared that with me.
That makes me feel good.
Good it does it does.
There's a lot of we get a lot ofstories on the show where people
(20:29):
are just indefinitely estrangedfrom their loved ones and that's
how it's going to be.
But it also makes me feel goodto know that people have they've
come to that place where theycan set those boundaries and
protect themselves even if it'shard.
And it also makes me feel goodknowing that people are still
trying to you know stay in thoserelationships and make them work
(20:52):
um despite uh everything elsethat makes me feel good.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Right.
Yeah we can't judge how otherpeople do things they're doing
things in a way that seems rightto them to do them.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Exactly you are listening to When the Bow Breaks
podcast to support the showvisit buymeacoffee.com slash WTB
pod.
You can buy us a cup of coffeeor two or ten.
Ten cups of coffee sponsors anentire WTB episode.
So if you'd like to support theshow visit buymeacoffee.com
(21:27):
slash WTB pod.
Back to the show I wanted tokind of switch gears just a
little bit because I rememberyou talking to me about we
talked a little bit about purityculture.
And you have something kind ofexciting that is set to happen
like next spring, you said whydon't you tell me a little bit
(21:49):
more about that because I'mreally and it will be happening
in your neck of the woods.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
This will be uh in Seattle next year May 23rd to
25th I'm hosting for the firsttime in person uh because
everything's been onlinepreviously the Shameless
Sexuality Life After PurityCulture conference uh and I'm
gonna be holding that uh inSeattle at uh a hotel right near
(22:18):
Pike's Place which I love umsuch a beautiful city Seattle is
and so I'm gonna have peoplecoming and speaking at that
event including my friend Dr.
Daryl Ray who's the founder ofuh recovering from religion our
first time to meet in personwe've spoken many times online
and he's spoken at uh also atthe conference on religious
(22:40):
trauma which I also host um he'sspoken there several times but
this will be the first in-personum event that I'm doing so I'm
excited about that and if peoplewant to buy tickets because
they're on early bird uh saleright now they can go to
shamelesssexuality.org that'slike org as in orgasm
(23:01):
shamelesssexuality.org to buytheir tickets I love that
remember that dot org likeorgasm got it as a as a coach
can you tell me a little bitabout like what would you tell
someone else who's kind of goingthrough this estrangement thing
um along with religion is thereany advice that you would give
(23:24):
our listeners who are kind ofactively going through that
struggle um so do you meanestrangement from family members
or estrangement from thereligion?
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
I guess maybe a little bit of both because I
feel like when you leave areligion I feel like it's only
natural that there's otherpeople that you just end up not
speaking with.
I feel like that just kind ofhappens even if you're not
intending for that to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
So I guess a little bit of both I guess right yeah
so um I always let people knowthat they are not alone they're
not the first and they won't bethe last uh person to decide
that religion is not for them uhand that um if we are telling
(24:08):
when we're telling familymembers that we no longer
believe we want to be carefulpurposeful thoughtful about how
we do it because there arealways it's it's bad news to the
religious family members nomatter how you do it but there
are ways that we can present thenews uh that maybe don't make it
quite as um as terrifying or weneed to give people space when
(24:34):
we're giving them bad news,right?
And where would you like toreceive bad news?
Probably not in a restaurantlots of people think they'll
just do it in a public place sothere won't be a big emotional
display but no let's bethoughtful how would you uh like
to receive really difficult newsand be prepared to give people
time and space and to let themknow you love them no matter
(24:56):
what uh and um that if they ifthey have questions or they want
to have a conversation um theycan talk to you about it but you
you won't be going back tochurch you know you're not going
back that way you're just as acourtesy because you love them
letting them know that you don'thold those beliefs anymore and
of course then we make the shiftfrom shared beliefs to shared
(25:19):
values and this is what I tellpeople when they're still
interacting with loved onesmaybe even a spouse um or
parents who still hold thosebeliefs but but we don't hold
them anymore.
So then we just talk about um wewe move more to the shared
values idea I'm still acompassionate person I'm still a
merciful person I'm I'm stillsomeone who really uh enjoys um
(25:41):
having some fun and good timeswith other people just
connecting with them on a realhard level those things haven't
changed about me the only thingthat's changed is I don't
believe that there is a Godwaiting to smite me um right out
there.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
So yeah I remember when I left some people were
like wow you aren't really theperson that you used to be and I
had to explain to them theperson who I used to be wasn't
really me.
I had a book full of standards Ihad to live up to and I worked
really hard to try and live upto them.
And I just couldn't continueliving that way because I knew
that it just wasn't for me.
(26:17):
And not only it wasn't for me,it was harming me and my family
and I just I couldn't do itanymore.
That was the reasons why I leftand you know it doesn't mean
that I hate you know otherpeople or anything like that.
I didn't do that to hurt myfamily.
I didn't do that to hurt thechurch.
I talk about these thingsbecause it helps heal me and it
helps other people.
(26:38):
So that's why I do this you knowoh I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
I'm so glad that you do you're providing a great
service and I think people willrecognize the tug of war if
we're talking about this battlebetween acceptance and um uh
being our true selves you knowwe go along with that we we kind
of try and toe the line so wedon't make waves until our need
(27:02):
for authenticity reallyoverwhelms that at that point
we're like you know what I justI love you so much.
It's important for me to bemyself.
I want to be myself with you andthis is who I really am and I
invite you to be who you reallyare too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
You have anything else you want to let our guests
know about you or your servicesor a way to get it connected
with you?
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Sure, yes.
Uh so my book will be coming outI believe in September and it'll
be called Divorcing Religion amemoir and survival handbook
because I have in there um theworkshop that I developed for
people who are divorcingreligion.
So that'll be coming out inSeptember and my website is
(27:41):
divorcingreligion.com people canreach out to me there and
they'll find me on uh threads aswell and Instagram I think as
Divorcing Religion.
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
Awesome.
Well thank you Janice if you'dlike to say hello or if you'd
like to be a guest or if youhave a story to submit please
send us an email at wtvb podcastat gmail.com
So I'm really excited.
So let's get into it.
Janice, why don't you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
what made you kind of pop up onhere on this show?
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on your show.
This is just a delight to get tospend some more time with you.
And uh I'm a registeredprofessional counselor and a
religious trauma recovery coachin British Columbia.
And of course, I see people allaround the world who are
recovering from religioustrauma.
And I grew up in a veryreligious Pentecostal family.
(00:47):
And then I married someone thatmy pastor set me up with.
And uh and then we ended upmoving to uh a small town on the
prairies for him to attend aBible college.
And while we were there, that'swhen I really did a deep dive
into fundamentalism because Isaw these ladies coming into the
(01:09):
grocery store in our small town,and they were always dressed
ever so modestly in these long,you know, skirts and and and
always had their hair covered,no makeup or anything.
And so I thought, what's goingon there?
I didn't I didn't recognizethem.
And my husband at the time said,Oh, well, you know, they are
actually a type of Mennonite uhcalled Holdeman Mennonites.
(01:32):
We have those folks in Canada,and he said that it's actually
in the New Testament whatthey're doing, how how carefully
they're dressing modestly andcovering their hair.
And that was shocking to mebecause um I thought I knew the
Bible pretty well, and I didn'tthink there was a mandate still
for women to cover their heads.
(01:52):
So I read the Bible and theconcordance and all the Bible
books that explain the Bible,and I decided, oh, these people,
they must be really holy.
They are following even morerules, and I love rules because
uh when I was growing up, I hada really volatile religious uh
father who was also anarcissist, and he could be um
(02:16):
scary at times, and so ruleswere really important to
recognize and to follow.
So then I was like, Yay, morerules.
Yeah, so I got out my glue gun,and that's right.
I got out my glue gun and I mademy first head covering and I got
rid of all my pants and myshorts and my jewelry, and even
stopped wearing my wedding ringat the time and decided, you
(02:36):
know, I was gonna move forwardin this new holy way.
And so I did for a number of umyears, and uh then one day it
all just stopped working for me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
The bow broke, yeah, right?
That's kind of what the show isabout.
Something's about to break andget too heavy and fall.
So tell me about that.
Like, so you went from goinginto Bible college as like what
a normally dressed person, andthen how long did it take for
you to to recognize these womenand adopt what they were doing?
(03:12):
How long did it take for that tokind of happen?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Well, we were probably on the campus already
for two, maybe two years orsomething at that point.
I was the president of thestudent-wides fellowship, all
this kind of stuff.
So I was relatively normal uh inthat setting.
Right.
Um, but uh then once I once Ilearned this new exciting truth
about more rules to follow, youknow, within 24 hours, I was
(03:37):
like, BAM, that's it.
Because, you know, I can't beprone to extremes.
Uh, and certainly um that was acase where that happened.
And I felt that I was beingentirely obedient um to
scripture.
Um, and I did ask my husband'spermission at the time.
And he's such a we're notmarried anymore, but he's a
really pretty laid back, laidback kind of chill fellow.
(04:00):
And uh he certainly never putany um pressure on me that he
wanted me to to do that.
But he did say he was fine if Ifelt personally like I needed to
do that.
Then he gave me his uhpermission.
And and I had hoped that wearinga head covering would remind me
uh to submit because I have sometrouble with submitting.
(04:23):
We do, don't we?
Some others might recognizethat.
Um, and so I really had uh youknow the best of intentions and
uh and I wore a head coveringfor a number of years, and I
also um you know startedhomeschooling the children at
that time, just really goingbecoming more uh isolated and
(04:43):
insulated in my views.
Um and then uh eventually heasked me to stop wearing the
head covering because he waspastoring and felt like it was
creating a division in thechurch or just putting a barrier
there between me and the otherladies who didn't.
Although I never told otherpeople that they needed to do
it.
I took it as my personal uhconviction.
(05:05):
Um, but so then we had a yearthat was very difficult with
lots of terrible things thatwent wrong.
Uh, and then the last thingbeing our youngest daughter uh
received a life-threateningdiagnosis that would be chronic.
And that was just it for me.
That was the bow broke rightthere because I was like, I
don't know anyone who's tried sohard to live according to the
(05:29):
Bible, uh, as I had been doing.
And then it just seemed like aconstant barrage of everything
going wrong.
Um, and so that was it for me.
And I gave myself permission tostart looking in other belief
systems and religions.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
So, what was going through your head when you know
you you had said I I did allthis work, I did, I changed all
these things about myself tofollow God more than I was
following him.
And now this, now my kid issick.
Like, yeah.
So you said the bow broke.
(06:08):
So what was kind of going inyour head?
You're like, yeah, have donethis all for nothing.
Is God punishing me or is hejust not there?
Like, what was what were youthinking?
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Yeah, excellent, excellent question, because
certainly that was uh the thewhole concept of am I being
punished, you know, those sortsof things were going through my
head.
And then there were other someother Christian people who I'm
sure were well-meaning, um, whoalso were, you know, you need to
(06:37):
pray more, you need to fastmore, whatever kind of stuff.
Uh and just the idea that um,yeah, it was potentially
something I had done.
And then what really snapped itfor me was I overheard my
daughter, and she was just 10 atthe time, I overheard her
praying and asking God what youknow, would he show her what sin
(06:59):
she had done so she wouldn't uhshe wouldn't be sick anymore.
Like it was, oh, it was heart uhbreaking, but I wasn't um I
wasn't ready to uh kind of throwaway God already.
What I basically thought was Godmay be out there, he may be
somewhere, but he's not herewhere I thought he was.
(07:22):
And so then I I did a deep diveinto um the new age movement and
had lots of fun studying thingsthat were formerly forbidden,
you know, going to psychics andastrology and looking, learning
about reincarnation, all thisstuff.
It was really exciting.
And then I felt I had a newcommunity there because I didn't
have my Christian community.
But then after a few years um inthat community, I there were
(07:45):
cracks in the facade there aswell.
Um, and it got me to a pointwhere I thought, you know what?
I I'm actually quite fine livingmy life.
I have a code of ethics, I don'tneed to worry about any God or
anything else out there topunish me.
I'm just gonna live my life.
And that was really when I wasstepping into my own um freedom.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
I like that.
You ours, believe it or not, ourjourneys are a little similar.
I felt like before I left myreligion that I also became a
little bit more extreme in someways.
I felt like that was the correctpath.
Um, and then yeah, like yousaid, when I did that, it really
didn't improve things and itdidn't reassure me in my faith
(08:32):
anymore.
I actually felt like I was doingit for nothing and there's no
point to this.
And as I studied more, studiedother religions, uh, you know,
exposed myself to things thatwere real and true, um, it
became easier for me to seethose contradictions that I had
adopted throughout my lifebecause I was raised in it.
(08:52):
Um so when you realized thatthis wasn't the way that you
wanted to live, was it kind oflike an overnight thing or was
it kind of progressive that youjust kind of gradually found
your footing as an individualwithout the um the God barriers,
I guess I would call it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, it was a progression.
I did not like just wake up andsay, well, that's it, it's all
wrong.
Because it was even I had togive myself permission to start
exploring uh other ideologiesbecause I had been born and
raised and um, you know,indoctrinated from childhood as
(09:33):
well into my own religiousbeliefs.
And at the time we were livingacross the street from a used
bookstore.
And so one day my husband andthe kids were at school, and I
thought, I'm gonna go over tothat bookstore.
And this was in the 90s, and sothere was a room at the back of
the store, and it had a longdark velvet curtain to the
(09:56):
floor, and over top of it itsaid occult and alternative
religions.
And I was like, I'm going inthere, I'm going in there
because I psyched myself up andI went and I took a big breath
and I opened the curtain andthen lightning did not strike
me.
And so I went inside and Iquickly closed the curtain
because I didn't want anyone tosee me.
(10:16):
And I'm scanning the bookshelvesto look for anything that seemed
like some kind of textbook, youknow, not nothing, nothing that
would immediately send me tohell.
And so I grabbed a book and Iwent to the cashier and I
actually asked her to put it ina brown paper bag because I
didn't want people seeing that Ihad this.
And then I took it and I ranback across the street to our
(10:39):
home and I hid it in the safestplace, my underwear drawer.
God himself would not even lookin my underwear drawer.
Uh, and then it took uh, youknow, over a number of weeks um
that I read through that book inprivate.
I didn't talk to my husband atthe time about what was going
on.
He by that time wasn't reallyinterested in coming to church
(11:01):
and the kids I was having todrag to church.
And so the last time I went tochurch, I went by myself and I
just wept through the servicebecause the the hymns and the
choruses, they just turned tosawdust in my mouth because I
felt very abandoned by God andby my church family.
Um, but so it was a progressionof uh walking out, taking small
(11:27):
steps on my own um to figure outmy own beliefs.
SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
So, what happened when you walked away from all of
this?
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Yeah, what happened next?
I I would say it in some waysvery little.
Like I was shocked.
I thought because I had been soinvolved in my church community
for so many years, I thought wewould I would be getting phone
calls and you know this sort ofthing.
And nope, nope, no, it wascrickets.
It was like one or two people,one person uh called and and
(12:04):
said, Well, you are taking yourkids to hell.
Um, but nobody else did.
And then I I plainly rememberone time uh breathing a great
sigh of relief when Idetermined, you know what?
I think hell is made up.
I don't actually think hell is areal place.
And then I always felt so goodabout that.
(12:25):
And I went to sleep and I wokeup in the middle of the night
and sat up, and I'm like, oh myGod, if hell is not real, then
maybe heaven is not real.
And that was then I'm likegasping and breathing into a
paper, having a fit thinkingthis.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, it was it was reallyscary.
(12:46):
And so I called my big brother.
So I have two older brothers,and they are not religious at
all.
Um, and I called the one thatI'm quite close to and I
explained my concerns.
And he said, I've I've beenthere, I know what you're going
through.
He said, Here's a video I'mgonna recommend that you watch
on YouTube.
(13:07):
And I watched it and I felt somuch better after um watching
it, and I'll share that if youwant, but it was really helpful
for me.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So, in terms of your family, you said that two of
your brothers don't reallypractice anymore.
Did you did any of your familyrelationships suffer when you
left the church?
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah, so all my siblings had uh walked away from
religion.
Um, my mom would still considerherself, oh, what does she say?
Oh, a woman of faith.
I got my air quotes quote, awoman of faith there.
But my my dad has always been uhvery fundamentalist and um quite
a narcissist as well, just not agreat combination.
Uh, and so I knew that therewould be issues when I finally
(13:54):
told him um that I didn'tbelieve.
But I felt like I had to tellhim because at that time we were
still tied in fairly closely tomy parents.
You know, the kids were like 10and 12 or whatever it was.
And so we would do some familymeals and stuff like that.
And so I finally told my dad,and sure enough, he started to
(14:15):
cry and you know, make a bigscene and all this stuff.
And I was like, Well, you know,this is you're just gonna have
to deal with it because it's me,you can't make me believe.
I said, I can't, I wish I couldmake myself believe again, but I
can't.
Yeah, you know, it's just oncewhat's what's that quote about
uh oh, once the mind has beenstretched from its uh original
(14:35):
dimensions, it can never return,you never go back there.
Um, and so then I had said to mydad, So I don't want you
mentioning God, you know, if youcome over to our house, we're
not gonna be praying.
And I don't want you to pray inmy house.
You can pray at your house, buttoo much.
And he just had uh too muchtrouble um with my um requests,
(14:59):
right?
My boundaries.
He didn't like that becausenarcissists don't like
boundaries at all.
Uh and then so then eventuallyuh what ended up being um what
ended up happening was going nocontact with him.
And that was about uh maybe fiveyears ago, four or five years
ago.
And uh I'm not the only siblingwho has gone that route.
(15:22):
Um and it ended up being just amassive relief not having to
constantly have interactionswith a narcissistic parent who
is also uh a fundamentalist.
So now my mom, I'm pretty closeto, um, and my parents are in
their 80s, of course.
Uh, and mom is uh she's veryhappy for me that I'm living a
(15:46):
life that I love and doing workthat's meaningful to me.
She doesn't quite grasp it.
She says, Oh, well, you mustwork with maybe you work with
people who grew up in Jehovah'sWitness families or Mormon
families or whatever, becauseshe thinks, you know, those are
every it's a cult.
If it's not what you believe,it's a cult.
(16:06):
Um, and uh, and then so youknow, I do work with some of
those folks.
And I said, Yeah, I do work withsome of those um folks.
And she says, Well, my Jesuswould never, no one would be
traumatized.
I'm like, Oh my god, have youlooked at your children?
But okay, we just don't have togo there.
Okay, there are lots of otherthings we could we can talk
about and still have a lovelyclose relationship.
(16:28):
And so we do.
And and uh my father's in care,so my parents don't live
together, so it's not a big dealum that way when we when we
visit each other.
Um, but so there were, you know,there were losses, and then um
my marriage eventually also um Iwasn't able to hold on to that,
but I will say I'm tremendousfriends with my uh ex-husband
(16:49):
today, and uh our daughters uhhave grown up and left the faith
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
So it it worked out, yeah, that's good.
Yeah, that's the hard thingabout estrangement is that it's
kind of bittersweet.
Uh for some people it can bebittersweet, for some people it
is just bitter.
Uh so for some people it isreally sweet, and for the
majority of us, it'sbittersweet.
I remember, you know,considering my parents a lot
when I walked away from thefaith because, you know, like
(17:19):
when you said you told yourfather and he cried and you
know, he was really sad becauseour parents, they actually
believe that we will go to hell,and that is very scary for them.
They did all this work todedicate us in the church and to
bring us to church and to raiseus right and all for what for
nothing.
I and then they might haveself-guilt about well, what did
(17:39):
I do wrong as a parent?
And so I I can I I am very awareof what it's like for a parent
to have to do that and have tosee their kid grow up in not a
way that they raised them to be,and to worry about um about
their soul, about their youknow, their existence in the
(18:01):
future or heaven.
Um, and so when you tell me thatyour mom, even though she
doesn't quite understandeverything, that she's happy for
you, that makes me feel good.
That gives me hope that maybe,maybe some of my family members
might be happy for you.
Oh, yeah.
Knowing that like I'm doingsomething that I really love and
I am happy and I am like, youknow, settled in Bellingham and
(18:22):
I love it here.
And it's just great.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Oh, yeah.
And and mom told me umeventually later that she she
had concerns when I startedwearing a head covering.
She didn't she didn't like thatbecause she to her that was
going in a too legalisticfundamentalist of a direction.
She's always been way more, waymore laid back of the two um
(18:46):
parents.
Um so one was super uptight andone was much more um chill.
So my mom's just kind of like,yeah, Jesus is great.
He loves everyone, so I loveeveryone.
You know, that's the kind ofperson that she is, and so then
it makes it much easier.
Um, and you know, even as she'sin her 80s, and you know, I hope
that she has another 20 years,but we'll just have to wait and
(19:08):
see.
Um, but if there comes a timewhen it would be comforting for
her if she's lying on a hospitalbed somewhere, and it would be
comforting if I sang hymns toher.
I will sing those hymns to her,I will do whatever helps make
her comfortable as her time umdraws to a close.
(19:28):
I don't have a problem with thatat all.
It doesn't mean I believe it,but it does mean that I love my
mom a great deal and I want tocomfort her.
I don't want her uh enteringinto a time of existential
crisis like I went through, notwhen she's this close to the
end.
SPEAKER_01 (19:43):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Everybody just kind of wantspeace.
Yeah, you know, and some ofthese religions give people
peace, and it does the oppositefor others.
It's just that's a reality.
And if we can figure out how toget along despite the fact that
we have completely differentviews or you know if we can
(20:07):
respect those boundaries then wecan still build families and we
can still build thoseconnections and help each other
and take care of each other andlove each other.
There's no reason why we can'tdo that.
You know, there shouldn't be youknow so I I'm really happy that
you shared that with me.
That makes me feel good.
Good it does it does.
There's a lot of we get a lot ofstories on the show where people
(20:29):
are just indefinitely estrangedfrom their loved ones and that's
how it's going to be.
But it also makes me feel goodto know that people have they've
come to that place where theycan set those boundaries and
protect themselves even if it'shard.
And it also makes me feel goodknowing that people are still
trying to you know stay in thoserelationships and make them work
(20:52):
um despite uh everything elsethat makes me feel good.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Right.
Yeah we can't judge how otherpeople do things they're doing
things in a way that seems rightto them to do them.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Exactly you are listening to When the Bow Breaks
podcast to support the showvisit buymeacoffee.com slash WTB
pod.
You can buy us a cup of coffeeor two or ten.
Ten cups of coffee sponsors anentire WTB episode.
So if you'd like to support theshow visit buymeacoffee.com
(21:27):
slash WTB pod.
Back to the show I wanted tokind of switch gears just a
little bit because I rememberyou talking to me about we
talked a little bit about purityculture.
And you have something kind ofexciting that is set to happen
like next spring, you said whydon't you tell me a little bit
(21:49):
more about that because I'mreally and it will be happening
in your neck of the woods.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
This will be uh in Seattle next year May 23rd to
25th I'm hosting for the firsttime in person uh because
everything's been onlinepreviously the Shameless
Sexuality Life After PurityCulture conference uh and I'm
gonna be holding that uh inSeattle at uh a hotel right near
(22:18):
Pike's Place which I love umsuch a beautiful city Seattle is
and so I'm gonna have peoplecoming and speaking at that
event including my friend Dr.
Daryl Ray who's the founder ofuh recovering from religion our
first time to meet in personwe've spoken many times online
and he's spoken at uh also atthe conference on religious
(22:40):
trauma which I also host um he'sspoken there several times but
this will be the first in-personum event that I'm doing so I'm
excited about that and if peoplewant to buy tickets because
they're on early bird uh saleright now they can go to
shamelesssexuality.org that'slike org as in orgasm
(23:01):
shamelesssexuality.org to buytheir tickets I love that
remember that dot org likeorgasm got it as a as a coach
can you tell me a little bitabout like what would you tell
someone else who's kind of goingthrough this estrangement thing
um along with religion is thereany advice that you would give
(23:24):
our listeners who are kind ofactively going through that
struggle um so do you meanestrangement from family members
or estrangement from thereligion?
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
I guess maybe a little bit of both because I
feel like when you leave areligion I feel like it's only
natural that there's otherpeople that you just end up not
speaking with.
I feel like that just kind ofhappens even if you're not
intending for that to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
So I guess a little bit of both I guess right yeah
so um I always let people knowthat they are not alone they're
not the first and they won't bethe last uh person to decide
that religion is not for them uhand that um if we are telling
(24:08):
when we're telling familymembers that we no longer
believe we want to be carefulpurposeful thoughtful about how
we do it because there arealways it's it's bad news to the
religious family members nomatter how you do it but there
are ways that we can present thenews uh that maybe don't make it
quite as um as terrifying or weneed to give people space when
(24:34):
we're giving them bad news,right?
And where would you like toreceive bad news?
Probably not in a restaurantlots of people think they'll
just do it in a public place sothere won't be a big emotional
display but no let's bethoughtful how would you uh like
to receive really difficult newsand be prepared to give people
time and space and to let themknow you love them no matter
(24:56):
what uh and um that if they ifthey have questions or they want
to have a conversation um theycan talk to you about it but you
you won't be going back tochurch you know you're not going
back that way you're just as acourtesy because you love them
letting them know that you don'thold those beliefs anymore and
of course then we make the shiftfrom shared beliefs to shared
(25:19):
values and this is what I tellpeople when they're still
interacting with loved onesmaybe even a spouse um or
parents who still hold thosebeliefs but but we don't hold
them anymore.
So then we just talk about um wewe move more to the shared
values idea I'm still acompassionate person I'm still a
merciful person I'm I'm stillsomeone who really uh enjoys um
(25:41):
having some fun and good timeswith other people just
connecting with them on a realhard level those things haven't
changed about me the only thingthat's changed is I don't
believe that there is a Godwaiting to smite me um right out
there.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
So yeah I remember when I left some people were
like wow you aren't really theperson that you used to be and I
had to explain to them theperson who I used to be wasn't
really me.
I had a book full of standards Ihad to live up to and I worked
really hard to try and live upto them.
And I just couldn't continueliving that way because I knew
that it just wasn't for me.
(26:17):
And not only it wasn't for me,it was harming me and my family
and I just I couldn't do itanymore.
That was the reasons why I leftand you know it doesn't mean
that I hate you know otherpeople or anything like that.
I didn't do that to hurt myfamily.
I didn't do that to hurt thechurch.
I talk about these thingsbecause it helps heal me and it
helps other people.
(26:38):
So that's why I do this you knowoh I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
I'm so glad that you do you're providing a great
service and I think people willrecognize the tug of war if
we're talking about this battlebetween acceptance and um uh
being our true selves you knowwe go along with that we we kind
of try and toe the line so wedon't make waves until our need
(27:02):
for authenticity reallyoverwhelms that at that point
we're like you know what I justI love you so much.
It's important for me to bemyself.
I want to be myself with you andthis is who I really am and I
invite you to be who you reallyare too.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
You have anything else you want to let our guests
know about you or your servicesor a way to get it connected
with you?
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Sure, yes.
Uh so my book will be coming outI believe in September and it'll
be called Divorcing Religion amemoir and survival handbook
because I have in there um theworkshop that I developed for
people who are divorcingreligion.
So that'll be coming out inSeptember and my website is
(27:41):
divorcingreligion.com people canreach out to me there and
they'll find me on uh threads aswell and Instagram I think as
Divorcing Religion.
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
Awesome.
Well thank you Janice if you'dlike to say hello or if you'd
like to be a guest or if youhave a story to submit please
send us an email at wtvb podcastat gmail.com
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.