"Why Can't We All Just Get Along?"

Ac shares the story of how a complicated family history led to estrangement from his mother and sister.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:06):
You are listening to When the Bow Breaks with your
host, Alexis Arlene.
Today's guest is AC fromMissionary Position Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 (00:18):
And and told me, you know what?
Like, get out of my house.
Don't come back.
And until you're ready to getright with God.
Even if they were really angrywith me and didn't want to talk
to me, there's like nothing Iwouldn't do to make that right.
Am I gonna am I gonna like hatemyself?
Am I gonna feel guilty because Ididn't do something while I had

(00:41):
the time?
I'm doing awesome.
How are you?

SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
Great.
How did how did you hear aboutme?
Uh, why don't you tell everyoneabout that?
Because I think it's kind ofinteresting.

SPEAKER_04 (00:59):
Um, if memory serves me, which it doesn't often at
this point in life, I I think Icame across you on one of the
podcaster support forums, andum, it was just a discussion
thread.
And um, I don't know, somethingabout the the nature of your
show really struck a chord withme, so I reached out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
I was surprised and because um I was thinking, oh,
I'm new, I'm nobody, nobodyknows who I am.
Who's gonna want to talk to meabout this?
You know, I I already askedpeople I knew.
I was like, you know, you wantto come on my show, maybe talk
about it?
You know, you can use adifferent name, and they're
like, no, it doesn't reallyappeal to me, you know.
And I was like, all right, so II reached out on Facebook um to
other podcasters and I was like,hey, can you all help me um

(01:42):
looking for guests for my show?
It's a new show, so no onereally knows.
And this person and that justkind of, you know, directed me
and uh took a listen to hispodcast.
I thought it was hilarious, bythe way.
I loved it, thought it wasrefreshing.
Yeah, you guys were joking abouthow you're not politically
correct.
And and I was telling myhusband, he's like, Good.
He's like, that's good.

(02:02):
So he's he's ready to listentoo.
Uh but uh anyway, um, why don'tyou tell me a little bit about
that, about your podcast andwhat you do?
Because I find that sointeresting and fascinating.
I just love it.

SPEAKER_04 (02:12):
Okay, well, the whole thing started out, it was
just a couple of years ago.
My my brother and I startedtalking about doing a YouTube
channel or maybe a podcastproject, but we weren't really
sure, you know, what expertisethat we had to offer into the uh
in into cyberspace.
And finally we just decided, youknow what, let's just be

(02:32):
ourselves.
We'll see what comes across,we'll see where the show takes
us.
And, you know, instead of tryingto decide what's the concept and
lead the show, we thought we'dlet the show lead us.
And what we discovered is that,you know, a couple of our our
passions, first of all, is youknow, trying to communicate to

(02:53):
people that it's okay tocommunicate honestly and
directly.
And we really strongly feel thatpolitical correctness more often
than than not gets in the way ofthat.

SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
I agree with that a hundred percent.
I do agree with that.
U people become so finicky andnitpicky, it's just it it
becomes so confusing, and thenyou you miss the whole point of
the relationship, you know.

SPEAKER_04 (03:15):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, you know, and uh abyproduct of exploring that
whole thing is you know, we wewe came to the conclusion that
ultimately like our egos get inthe way of communication more
often than not, and I thinkpolitical correctness is
something that we sort of use toshield our egos with.

(03:36):
I mean, ultimately, like offenseit's taken, it's not given,
right?
So, I mean, if I'm if I'mtalking to you, if I'm not
trying to be a jerk, then youknow, there's a certain amount
of responsibility that you needto take to try to hear what I'm
saying.

SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 (03:51):
And you know, it's it's all the responsibility
isn't on me to try to guess whatmight bother you.
You know, if something bothersyou, yeah, you can tell me and I
can adjust my trajectory.
I know I'm sort of wandering offtopic already, but I mean that's
just a podcaster habit.

SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
No, not really, because you're kind of on point.
It I think it's all about, youknow, setting boundaries, even
those little boundaries andconversations that we have with
people, you know, and and umthat actually kind of brings
that actually kind of brings meup to my whole stranger thing.
I won't go into my story, butuh, you know, I was kind of
raised, you know, to accept whateveryone else said, and you're
not allowed to have an opinionand you're not allowed to

(04:29):
express your thoughts.
Right.
And you just have to kind of goalong with, you know, the
political correctness ofeverything.
And and for me, it was beingraised, you know, in a very
religious home.
And my parents were very, theywere very um militant.
Uh, they were both, they meantthey meant in the army, so they
were very bossy and very like,you know, do what I say kind of

(04:52):
thing.
And so I kind of grew up withthat.
And so when I became older and Istarted noticing that other
people were allowing me to sharethose things, you know, and
express myself.
So I was like, oh, people arelistening, you know, they're not
like kicking me for it, youknow.
And so then I started to kindof, you know, explore my whole
way of thinking.
And I was like, oh, I canexpress my thoughts, I can share

(05:14):
this with this person, and I'mnot gonna get, you know,
scapegoated for it, you know,later or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 (05:20):
Yeah, and that's so huge.
Cause because I mean you you youlearn and develop so much on a
personal level when you when youget these hang ups out of the
way, right?

SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Oh, yeah, it's totally liberating.
Totally liberating.
I mean, I'm a completelydifferent person now than I was,
you know, just a couple yearsago when all this happened.
But, you know, let's talk aboutyou.
Like when and how how did thisall happen for you?
How did this whole estrangementthing, you know, occur, you
know, in your life?

SPEAKER_04 (05:45):
It's not really the easiest question to answer.
Yeah.
The way I like to describe it topeople, it's sort of like the
deaths by a thousand cuts,right?
It's all these little thingsthat that build up over time.
And, you know, I I guess thefirst sort of like major step
towards the rift, if you want tolook at it that way, was I I had

(06:05):
been going through for manyyears a crisis of faith.
Because like you, I was raisedin a very, very religious
household.
The rules were very strict.
Questioning authority,questioning the religious texts
was really not allowed.
And um, in adulthood, I mean, Iwas like well into my 30s at
this point.
I I I really started looking atthings and asking these

(06:27):
questions that I'd never beenallowed to ask growing up.
And I I got to the point whereit's like, you know what, I'm
not really sure if I believethis stuff anymore.
And um with with my mom, becausemy my dad died back in 2002, so
it's just sort of my mom is thethe parent that you know I still

(06:49):
have if you want to look at itlike that.
She was the one I had theseconversations with, and she just
kept on, you know, everything Ihad to say, like I've got a
question, she wouldn't help meexplore these things, she sort
of just started to push back andturn it into a personal thing.
Like there was something I wasdoing to, you know, actively

(07:10):
offend her because I didn'tshare her perspective anymore.
And so I I sort of started toback off a little bit as far as
like those types ofconversations go with her, just
sort of for the sake of thepeace.
But then um, just beforeChristmas, I guess it was about
five or six years ago, I wasover at her place visiting her,

(07:32):
and she was just going on and onand on about like all these
wonderful things that werehappening in church.
And I just said, Mom, you know,like I gotta put you on pause
there.
Like, I'm I'm not really surethat I believe what you believe
anymore.
You know, I had the the wholeconversation worked out in my
head in advance.
I was very intellectuallyprepared for this conversation,

(07:54):
but the conversation turned outto be completely emotional.

SPEAKER_01 (07:59):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (08:00):
So I I I was sort of blindsided because she she just
started getting so angry, and umI I I tried to keep the
conversation back towards, youknow, like these are the these
are the questions I've had,these are the doubts that I I I
can't really make sense of.
And um, yeah, I mean she's yourmom, you know, you wanted to

(08:23):
express, you know, thosethoughts and those feelings, and
uh, you know, maybe you werekind of hoping that she would
kind of be accepting and helpyou out of that, and she just
wasn't, or well, you know, youknow, I I it's sort of weird
because like when I wasimagining how things were gonna
play out, I had sort of likepictured a case where you know,
she's not gonna accept me forwhere I'm at or for like what

(08:45):
I've become, but she's gonnahear me out at least so that she
can understand, okay, whatbrought me to this place, and
maybe if she's not gonna acceptit, maybe she's gonna, you know,
take a more loving approach toyou know fixing it or whatever
from from her perspective.
But it it it all sort of playedout like my my doubt was um, or

(09:10):
at least my my difference ofopinion from her was like a
personal attack on her entireway of being.

SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
Like if you don't believe whatshe believes, it she takes it
very personally.
Yeah, my mom was like that alot.

SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
She uh if I would try to exploit a contradiction
or even, yeah, like you said,just ask a question.
She saw that as my thinking wasbeing muddled by something else.

SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
Yeah, like we were we'd get in trouble even for
even going that way.
So I get this whole likeuncomfortable feeling that you
had with this conversation notgoing the way that you expected.

SPEAKER_04 (09:51):
Yeah, it can be kind of rough, right?
And you know, like it I I didn'twant to hurt her, obviously.
So I was trying to be as gentleas possible, but I mean it gets
to the point where like I I Ihave to admit, like one of the
things that's really changedbetween like now and back then
is like I'm far less of ahothead than I was.
I mean, back then somebody wouldlike sort of like challenge me a

(10:13):
little bit too much, and then Ijust want to get loud.

SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
I have to say that's where I'm at right now.
So I'm hoping it'll end soonbecause I've never been like
this before.

SPEAKER_04 (10:20):
Yeah, it's no fun.

SPEAKER_01 (10:22):
Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_04 (10:23):
So, you know, like I I I don't know if if I can
entirely blame her for the rift.
Because I I definitely like mymy reaction to her reaction
certainly like escalated thesituation, if nothing else.

SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
But I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (10:39):
I I I I replay the situation in my head like all
the time.
Because I mean, like, eventhough we don't talk or
whatever, I mean she's my mom,and there's a lot of her in me.
I hear her voice coming out ofmy mouth when I'm talking to my
kids sometimes.
I mean, like she didn't raise meentirely bad, you know.
She's on my mind.
I mean, she's she's blood andeverything else.

SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
And um when you express that you didn't, you
know, share these beliefs, whendid the point of no contact
happen?
Who stopped talking to who?
Or was it just kind of mutual?

SPEAKER_04 (11:10):
It was actually really, really abrupt because we
had one, I guess, heatedconversation too many.
Um I I don't know what exactlyyour position is as far as faith
goes, but I mean what I'velearned is that it's a fairly
common thing when you're likecoming out of a religion, just
like when you're going into areligion, you you tend to get a
little preachy.

SPEAKER_00 (11:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (11:30):
And and oh yeah, you want to share your newfound
knowledge and whatever.
And so I was sort of at thatpoint where like I just couldn't
shut up about it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
And yeah, you were excited about it, it was helping
you, and it was it it addedsomething to your life, and you
wanted to share that, you know.
I get that.
Yeah, I would get excited aboutthat too, and you know, things
like that.
And my mom, she would just kindof like squash it.

SPEAKER_04 (11:51):
Yeah, it sort of takes the fun out of everything
you're you're you're learningabout.

SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 (11:58):
I guess I was a little bit too preachy for her
like, she was a little bit toopreachy for my like, and then
she just sort of snapped the oneday and and told me, you know
what, like get out of my house,don't come back and until you're
ready to get right with God.
Because until that day comes,you have no place in my life.

(12:20):
Jeez.
And um, as I was on my way outthe door, you know, she was
almost she had like this liketwisted kind of laugh coming
over her, like she just was soproud of herself, you know.
Like every every knee will bow,including yours.
And if you don't come right withGod, you're gonna burn in hell.
I mean, that's just the way it'sgonna go.

SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
So this is why I wanted to talk to you because
when I when I started hearingyou kind of ex you know explain,
you know, kind of your mom alittle bit, it gave me chills
because this is like very muchlike how my mother was like very
fire and brimstone messages likeyou do this or you're going to
go to hell.
And even if, you know, if I wasfriends with a gay person, oh

(13:03):
heaven forbid, you know, you'reassociating with with evil
people, and I'm like, eh, Idon't know, I've never been hurt
by any of those people.
So I don't know.
I don't know where you know thisevil you're talking about is
really from, but it I don't seeit, and these people are my
friends, you know.
And so it just you know, thingslike that that just didn't make
sense to me.
I was like, how can youuninclude someone for that?

(13:24):
Like, and I was like, and howcan you just, you know, love
your child so conditionally?
Also, that bothered me.
I feel like your mom and my momcould almost be twins.

SPEAKER_04 (13:34):
Yeah, they probably get along just fine from the
sounds of things.

SPEAKER_01 (13:37):
Yeah, sound like they believe the same stuff and
they don't care whether theirkids believe it or not, you
know.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (13:44):
It's just such a weird thing to to to have a rift
over, right?

SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Because I mean, like I couldn't imagine doing it to
my kids.
I couldn't imagine.

SPEAKER_04 (13:50):
That's the thing.
I got I got two kids too.
I got two sons, one's 11, theother one's 16.
I I can't imagine any situationthat might come up that would
cause me to stop loving them orstop wanting to be in contact
with them.
Yeah, I mean, even if they werereally angry with me and didn't
want to talk to me, there's likenothing I wouldn't do to make
that right.

SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (14:10):
So I mean, like, as as a parent, even I just I just
don't get it.
They're my responsibility,they're my life, they're my
everything, you know.
And yeah, I I I I I couldn'tturn my back on that.
And I I try to teach them too,you know, like you know, you
never mind what other peoplehave to say about the way things
are, like, figure things out foryourself, ask questions, follow

(14:32):
the follow the questions throughto their logical conclusions,
look for the good in people.
How much Jesus a person has isirrelevant.
Yeah, do they treat you decent?
That's all you need to know.

SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Yeah, that's another thing, you know.
There was all this talk about,you know, I don't want to diss
Christianity too much becausethere's, you know, plenty of
people who are doing it andthey're doing it right, you
know.
But the way I was raised, youknow, we were preached to, but
no one lived it.
No one was like Jesus at all.
And so that was why it was soconfusing.
And I'm like, how am I supposedto live this?

(15:03):
I don't even know how to liveit.
I'm not seeing it being done.
And and how am I supposed to,you know, a lot of it was taken
out of context, you know, when Iwas growing up.
It wasn't like I grew up andjust realized Christianity was
just crap, you know, you know,and I it doesn't really matter
what my perspective is, really,but it, you know, it was just
something that for me wasdistorted and you know, I had to

(15:26):
question it.
And when I was older and I didthat, it was just she just
didn't like it.
And when my kids come to me, I'malways trying to be like, well,
if I don't know the answer, I'mgonna find out, you know, I'm
gonna help you, you know.
And I always tell my kids, itdoesn't matter to me, you know,
what you believe in.
My daughter made my oldestdaughter, she made the decision
to be baptized into the samefaith.

(15:46):
And I honestly have to say thatpart of me was kind of upset and
or just worried, concerned.

SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
I was like, okay, I want to make sure she knows what
she's doing.
She knows you know, I had lotsof long talks with her.
I was like, what do you believe?
And you know, where are youlearning this?
You know, like who's talking,you know, who's giving the
messages in her, you know, hergroup or whatever.
But you know, I always want tomake sure, you know, if you know
what you're doing, you know,this is what you want to do, do
it.
I'm gonna support you 100%.

(16:15):
And I'm gonna let you know.

SPEAKER_04 (16:16):
That's what a mother should do.

SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
That's what all parents should do.
It's like, you know, we can't gothrough life assuming that
everyone's gonna have the sameperspective as us.
I just think that's part of athe big reason why there's so
much pushback when you're tryingto, like you said, get along
with people in conversation justabout your differences because
people become so passionate andso preachy, like you said, it

(16:39):
gets in the way of ourrelationships, which is like,
you know, a total perfectexample of kind of what
happened, you know, between youand your mom, you know, just the
belief thing.

SPEAKER_04 (16:47):
Yeah, it's it's not even limited to like religious
stuff.
Like on the most recent episodeof our our podcast at the time
of recording now, um, we we hada conversation about the
arguments that people have, likesay like arguing Beatles versus
Rolling Stones, you know, likewe get oh no, we get passionate
about the things that we careabout, but we get passionate to
the point sometimes where likewe don't want to appreciate the

(17:12):
fact that hey, we're beingexposed to some new ideas and
some new perspectives.
We're so focused on winning theconversation that we end up
losing out big time.

SPEAKER_01 (17:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, nobody wins really.

SPEAKER_04 (17:24):
I I don't care like how different two people are.
I mean, we guaranteed we haveway more in common than than we
don't.

SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Yeah, for sure.
So, like aside from the youknow, the religious stuff, what
are what what were some of theother things that just kind of
picked at you for a long time?

SPEAKER_04 (17:39):
Like what you'd pointed out with your parents.
I mean, it wasn't like limitedto like the religious uh
inconsistencies or hypocrisy,it's just a case of like you say
one thing, you do another.
Like I I I I have troubles withpeople that you know just aren't
straight about who they are.
Like, I don't care if you're thebiggest jerk on the planet, if
you just own it, if you'reauthentic about it, like I can

(18:02):
respect it if nothing else.
Yeah, I don't have to like you,but I can't disrespect you for
being real.

SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah, you know, I agree with that.
Yeah, it's like I mean, I had tomake a big change in myself when
I just to be able to handlethat.
And it's hard for people tochange.
And so sometimes you just gottalet people just, you know, go
through their own life and dotheir own thing and and uh just
pray they don't hurt anyone, andyou know, and just you know,

(18:29):
yeah, just the mutual respectthing.
You know, there's assholes outthere, and sure.
Um, you just gotta let them givethem time to grow up, and some
of them won't ever.

SPEAKER_04 (18:37):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
And that and we still have to accept that too.
And that's tough when it's yourparents sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 (18:42):
Yeah, it parents, I don't know, it it it's it's
complicated on either end of theequation, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (18:47):
It is complicated.
I'm a parent, and you know, Ihad grandparents, I saw a lot of
this, you know, happen betweenyou know the older generation.
There was estrangement in myfamily, and I just I keep seeing
this cycle, you know, and I justI want it to end, but I feel
like the only way it's gonna endis if I just don't associate,
you know, with those people, butit's like then it just keeps

(19:08):
repeating and then you know areyou sure we're not related?

SPEAKER_04 (19:10):
Because I mean, like estrangement, like that would
just sort of like the normal wayof like family business, both on
my mom's side and my dad's sidefor it was most of my childhood.

SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
Oh I know, like after I stopped talking to my
parents, I was like, wow, thiswasn't I'm not the first one,
you know, like just following intheir footsteps.
Yeah, because I was like, oh,now I get like, oh, that's why
so-and-so ducked out for like 10years and no one knew where they
were.
I was like, oh, it's because herdad was a piece of shit or
whatever, you know, they'reabusive or got her into drugs or
whatever.

(19:42):
And then you start figuring itout because then people start
telling the truth, you know, andit starts coming out.
Um, but yeah, so it's realinteresting, you know, on the
outside looking in, and then youre then you're like, oh wait,
wait, how did this happen?
I gotta go give that person acall, be like, hey, how do I do
this?
You know, not talk to my familyand How do I do that?

SPEAKER_04 (20:00):
Well, it's hard to mean like I I I I looked at a
bit of this too and I wasthinking, okay, like maybe I'm
just like a bit of a familycliche because like I'm just not
talking to my parent orwhatever.

SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (20:09):
Just like they didn't talk to theirs for many
years, and maybe their parentsbefore them, who knows?

SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (20:15):
But what I tell myself, anyways, is what sets me
apart is that like I I reallydid agonize over the fact that
even though I wasn't the one whocaused the ultimately caused the
separation that, you know, I waswell justified in not doing
anything to bridge the gap.
Because, you know, like whenyou're dealing with somebody

(20:35):
who's like really, really toxic,uh there's no direct benefit to
be had from having them in yourlife.
I mean, quite the opposite.
There's a lot of harm to be had.

SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (20:46):
And I cope with uh anxiety and and depression and
panic disorder as it is.
So I mean, like, I don't reallyneed to introduce any
unnecessary elements ofnastiness in my life because
like it's on a good day, it'sdifficult to like keep things
going.

SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
Yeah, and this is why, you know, this is why I
love talking to people becauseit's it's so funny how you know
you lose your family and thensomehow you you you find others
who have lost their families orhave been abandoned or who left,
and you all talk to each otherand you realize, God, we are
like siblings almost.

(21:27):
Like we were raised, like wehave the same feelings, we have
the same crap we have to dealwith now, you know, like the
depression and the you know, Ihave all those things too.
It's nuts, it's insane.
Like you said, even on a goodday, it's like you think, God,
how the hell did I get throughthat?
Even like how how did I how wasI happy today and didn't cry in
front of any anyone, you know,on this happy occasion, because
usually those happy occasions,you know, they make me upset,

(21:49):
you know, nowadays.
And so, yeah, like even on agood day, it's tough.
And so, and the holidays, that'slike when everyone just, you
know, in our kind of littleestranged child group, um, you
know, that's that's a hard time.

SPEAKER_04 (22:03):
And yeah, that's a painful reminder that like
everybody else has got certaintypes of people in their life
that you don't have.

SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And then, you know, even, youknow, I have my husband's
family, you know, I'm reallythankful for that, but it
doesn't really even help thesting of what happened, you
know, all the years growing up.

SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
You know, you're you see all the happy things
happening, but in your mind,you're remembering all of these
like really scary things.
And so you're standing there andeveryone's having a good time
and you're like shaking becauseyou're not where, you know,
where everyone else is.
You're back somewhere else andyou know, where you don't want
to be.
And so, you know, then you gottaleave the room or whatever, you

(22:45):
know, so you can calm down.
And that's the kind of stuffthough that I deal with anyway.
That's the kind of stuff, youknow, people with PTSD and panic
disorder deal with because we'reconstantly battling, you know,
the past.
And I get so angry when somepeople say for give and forget.
And I was like, Yeah, I try thatall the time.
You know, I just can't forgetwhat happened, you know, my
subconscious, it's all ingrainedin there.

SPEAKER_04 (23:06):
Yeah, I I I forgot I forget nothing.
I'm I'm happy to forgive, butlike, yeah, I I I can't just put
things out of my mind.
I mean, you know what it's like?
I mean, it like I think comeswith a territory for a lot of
people with anxiety issues is atleast a touch of OCD.
And yeah, we we tend to likewant things to make sense, and

(23:27):
when they don't make sense,we'll just keep turning them
over and over and over in ourhead again, and like dealing
with like parental estrangement.
That's one of those things wecan't make sense of.
That's not the way our mindswork, so like we just get stuck
on it.

SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
And it's just like a record that just replays, and
you're like, How do I make thisstop?
Like, you want it to get better,and I mean that's like the whole
PTSD thing in general, you know,you're playing it over in your
head, trying to make sense ofit, trying to cope with it, and
trying to also, you know, yoursubconscious is also building up
those defenses, you know, um,and you don't even realize it.

(24:04):
And then pretty soon you're justat least for me, I'm like, okay,
you know, I get some really likefirm boundaries, and people are
like, whoa, she's upset aboutit.

SPEAKER_04 (24:14):
No, but it's not, it's not like that.
It's all like justself-preservation.
And you're also like puttingthese other people in a good
position too, even if they don'trealize it because you're
telling them, look, like theseare my triggers, and I'm
basically telling you how toavoid them so that we can all
get along better.

SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
Yeah, it's totally.
This was like that's so helpfultalking to somebody else about
all this PTSD stuff.

(25:01):
What were some of the thingslike after you were estranged?
Like, how did that like affectyou?
Like, how did that change theway, like, did that make any
change to your life at all?
Like, I mean, obviously youweren't talking to your mom
anymore, but how did it kind ofaffect you your life like your
lifestyle?

SPEAKER_04 (25:18):
I think the the the biggest thing was like tying
back into like the PTSD, theanxiety stuff, and like turning
things over and over again in myhead was I started looking at
like my life as a whole, like inin the context of my my family
unit, like with my mom, my dad,my siblings, and whatever.
And I started realizing that youknow, like my whole life was

(25:40):
basically pushing towards thatpoint where you know the rift
was gonna happen.
Because like my my my olderbrother, he um he never really
was in contact with my mom anddad.
I found out when I was olderthat like he wasn't my dad's
son, he was my mom's son frombefore my mom and dad got
together.

SPEAKER_01 (25:59):
But uh like my other stories like that in my family
too.

SPEAKER_04 (26:02):
Yeah, like my my mom never really wanted to talk
about him.
And it it seemed like whenever Iwould like as I was growing up,
whenever I would like um saysomething that sounded maybe
like my brother would have said,then she would just you know
fire back at me with somethingalong the lines of, you know,
like you better just change thatbecause I've written off one
child, I can do it again.
Oh no problem, right?

(26:24):
So I mean it's just always hadlike that feeling that she was
just looking to pull thetrigger.
So what I what I got out of likerevisiting all these these types
of memories was realizing thatlike this wasn't ultimately
something that I had done.
The the problem was largely onon her end, and I think the
responsibility entirely on herend, because she was the parent

(26:46):
in in the equation.

SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (26:48):
And I I learned to let go of a lot of the guilt
that I had always carried withme.
I was very, very much motivatedby by guilt and very little else
up until that point.
And sort of shrugging off thosefeelings of like self-blame,
that was liberating in itself.

SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
Yeah, self-blame for sure.

SPEAKER_04 (27:07):
The other big change was it was sort of like, okay,
now the the the brakes are off.
There's nobody standing in theway of my quest for knowledge,
my quest to like answerquestions.
I don't need mom's approvalanymore if I've got these
questions of faith.
I can just run at it headfirstand like see like what's what.
And you know, for the first timein my life, I really started

(27:30):
like gobbling up informationwith without um any preconceived
notions.
Like I let the evidence lead myconclusions instead of my
conclusions sort of filteringthe evidence.

SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
Yeah, it's like let's see what this stuff really
looks like.
Yeah, you know, like let's seeit with fresh eyes and let's
examine it and let's think aboutit.
Yeah, I did the same thing too.
It's like it was awesome.
I was I was like enjoying itbecause I was like never allowed
to do it before.

SPEAKER_04 (27:56):
Yeah, it's like a real high.

SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
Yeah, it is a real high.
Like, I love to learn, and I wasvery suppressed in that area of
education, being especiallybeing a female in my family.
I was braced to be a wife andhave babies.
I did all that because I wantedto do all that though.
They thought I was, you know,doing things their way.
And then after I had my babiesand wanted to do something else,

(28:18):
they're like, hmm, you know,like I was never allowed to make
my own decisions or, you know, Iwas like, man, my my parents,
you know, they just go and dotheir whatever they want.
It's like, when are they gonnabe okay with me doing that?
It's like I'm a you know,36-year-old woman, and they're
you know, they're telling me Ihow to think and what go to
where.

SPEAKER_04 (28:36):
Well, it's gonna be terrible too to be like reduced
just to being a geneticallyvalid person, right?

SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
Oh god, yeah.
Oh yeah.
I just I had no self-esteemgrowing up.
Zero, like none.

SPEAKER_04 (28:47):
I was just waiting to just I mean again, like I
don't want to say too much aboutmy own stuff, but I'm not No,
but I mean the self-esteem, it'sa it's it's it's a good thing
you it's a good thing you bringthat up because I mean
self-esteem is a big thing too.
I mean, like there are negativethings obviously that have come
out of like this like umseparation from my mom, like I
become a little less trusting ofmy existing relationships

(29:12):
because you know there's it it'sbeen demonstrated to me that
like even somebody that you knowand love and trust can at any
given moment just turn it offand leave you.
You know, my my my wife, I thinkshe gets really frustrated with
me sometimes because like if shegets even a little bit upset
with me, my the first place mymind goes is oh you don't love
me anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Or this can't work, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (29:33):
Or you know, I'll understand, and it's so hard,
it's so hard for the people inour lives, right?

SPEAKER_01 (29:37):
Because like we're not we're not trying to be jerks
and it's like you know we'retrying to feel safe emotionally
and like you tighten up thoseboundaries or like you start
building really thick walls andand nobody else, you know, your
existing relationship, peoplethat you've known who have known
you for a long time, like, whatare you doing?
You know, what's this wall herebefore?
You never have this, you know,like what's the deal?

(29:58):
And you know, you're trying toexpress that, you know, while
you're still figuring it out,you know, you're still
processing all of it, you'retrying to explain to them, like,
don't do this, this makes mefeel bad, or you know, when
they've been doing it for years,but you were never able to tell
them, you know, or somethinglike that.

SPEAKER_04 (30:13):
It's hard too, right?

SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
Because like the you know, and then yeah, you always
think, oh, the relationship'sover now because they're not
gonna respect my boundaries, oryeah, or it's done, it's over.
Yeah, I have those thoughts.
Like, obviously, I never followthrough the through with them.
My husband's awesome, but it'slike I do have those thoughts.
I just feel like all theserelationships I have are
eventually gonna fail.

SPEAKER_04 (30:30):
Yeah, you for me, it it makes honestly like relating
to strangers a lot easier.
It feels safer, right?
Because there's nothing reallyinvested.
Like, I I'll speak openly aboutanything with anyone.
I don't I don't have like trusttrust issues in the sense where
like I can't say what's on mymind.
Like, you know, if you want tolike hate me for it or laugh at

(30:52):
me for it, whatever, I can I caneat that.
It doesn't bother me.

SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Yeah, leave a bad review, fine, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 (30:58):
Yeah, cool, whatever.
Yeah, as long as you're thinkingof me, that's that's awesome.
But it's like it, yeah.
I mean, like that's a positivethat's come out because I've
just become like more drawn tolike people that I don't know.
Whereas before I used to bevery, very introverted and
afraid to talk.
So I found my voice, I found myoutgoing nature.

(31:18):
But you know, the the the flipside to that is like the people
that actually are close to me,like it it's it's real work to
to tear those walls down thatyou were talking about.

SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
Yeah, it is, it's a lot of work, and you know, I
bring up my husband a lotbecause when I became a
stranger, I didn't talk toanybody about it.
Nobody knew, nobody in my familyknew, nobody.
Oh I was, you know, Christianfamily, they're like, you leave,
that's dishonoring your parents,and that's breaking one of the
ten commandments, and you'redishonoring God, and therefore
you're not a Christian, andyou're not good enough.

(31:51):
And you know, I was like, Well,don't you ever want to know why?

SPEAKER_04 (31:53):
You know, so I wasn't even ready to even um it
doesn't matter why to them.

SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
It doesn't, yeah, that's the thing, they don't
really care.
They're just they're upset thatyou are causing drama for the
family, and so I didn't tellanybody, and so my husband,
like, oh my god, I don't knowhow he did all this.
Like, he was basically my onlysupport, other than my online
support groups.
Yeah, and I did have a counselorup until I was estranged, and

(32:20):
then I couldn't go anymorebecause my parents used to
babysit my kids all the time,which is one reason why I left.
Yeah, I lost my babysitter andleft, left my parents.
Uh, so I stopped going to thatseeing that counselor, but I
just joined like every singlefriggin' online group I could
find because I was like, I needhelp, I need support.
I was like, how do I do this?
I, you know, I felt really alsoignorant to a lot of things
because I was, you know, sosheltered.

(32:42):
And my husband, he's always beenabout do what you want to do,
you know.
He's always been so supportive.
And so when I was estranged, itwas like I told him I was crying
him one day.
I was just really deep in mygrief, and I was like, I'm
changing as a person.
And I was like, and I don't knowif you'll still love me
afterwards.
And and he's like, What do youmean?
I like that you're growing andthat you're changing.
I'm getting emotional justsaying it because like I didn't

(33:03):
think I was gonna like say this,but no, but I get where you're
coming from.
I had so fear, so much fear.
There's so much fear, and likethe you're hanging on like by a
thread to like the relationshipsyou have because of what
happened, you know, with betweenyou and your parents.
Like, I lost a lot of friendstoo.
Like, I don't know if you lostlike family members or friends
because you didn't talk to yourmom anymore, but I did.

SPEAKER_04 (33:24):
Yeah, I I lost everybody all at once.

SPEAKER_01 (33:27):
It it sucked.
Can you imagine like someoneblowing up?
I mean, I don't want to say thatlike on the podcast because that
could be considered like athreat, but like like can you
imagine like somebody just likeblowing up the whole stinging
place and you're like it's allgone.

SPEAKER_04 (33:40):
Yeah, but emotionally that's exactly what
you live through though, right?

SPEAKER_01 (33:44):
Yeah.
You're like, I might as welllive on the moon.
It is totally, totally, it's atotal devastation.
Like, it's like everyone died,and you can't like, but they're
there and like you like you cancontact them, but you can't at
the same time.

SPEAKER_04 (33:57):
That's the hardest thing, like moving forward,
right?
Because like I think about likemy my dad who actually died in
2002.
I mean, like, we we made peacelong before he passed away, so
everything was cool there.
And you know, obviously I had togrieve his loss, and it was
hard, but I mean, like, it waseasier than grieving the loss of
my mom, even though my dad and Iwere way closer.

(34:20):
Yeah, like what my counselor hadsaid this like if you don't have
the option of like rebuilding arelationship, if you know that
that's just not on the table,you have to grieve her loss as
though she has died.
It's the only way you're gonnamove on.
Yeah, but the reality is, islike, okay, so like I've I've
cried my tears, I've spent mytime thinking about it, I've

(34:42):
like done my time in therapy.
Ultimately, like she isn't dead,like she's a phone call away.
Yeah, you know, and that'salways the struggle.

SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
It's like or when they try and contact you, yeah,
or when they try and contact youwhen you don't want to be
contacted.
You know, I had that when youknow I didn't want to be
contacted, and you know, I hadevery Joe Schmoe from people I
hadn't seen since I was tiny whowere finding me on Facebook, you
know, telling me you shakingtheir finger in my face on

(35:13):
Facebook, you gotta go back toyour parents.
I'm like, who the hell are you?
Like, where were you?
Like, you know, 30 years ago, Iwas like, I haven't seen you.
You don't even know who I am.
I was like, you don't even knowme.

SPEAKER_04 (35:22):
Yeah, you just want to put it in the shitty opinion.

SPEAKER_01 (35:25):
Yeah, yeah.
And it just it was scary.
And like that's when you don'twant to talk about it because
you feel like, okay, your wholecommunity's gone, but no, it's
not gone.
They're there, they just likehave their pitchforks up against
you, you know, and you're like,shit.

SPEAKER_04 (35:38):
Well, I I guess I was sort of fortunate in in in
that sense because like witheverybody disappearing, like
they just disappeared.
Um, the only people that or theonly person I I know that still
has that still at that time hadcontact with my mom was my
ex-wife, who's like my bestfriend in the whole world.

(35:59):
So it was it was hard for herbecause like she wanted to see
everybody get along, but at thesame time, she'd been around the
situation for enough years toknow that like, you know, I
wasn't just being an asshole,that this was like a real thing.
And then eventually, like I Ireached out to my one of my
sisters, who I'd sort of lost inthis whole transaction, and I

(36:20):
just went and and I'll I won'tsay her name, I'll just her her
first initial is L.
I went to see L and um just tosort of make peace with her.
And you know, like the agreementwe had was like, Yeah, let's get
along, let's just keep things,you know, civil.

SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (36:37):
And um I just asked her, like, for the sake of my
anxiety and everything, he justlike not talk about mom because
I can't really handle it.
And for the longest time she wascool that way.
But then she started like sayingthings like, you know, mom's
changed, like you know, she'sgone through a lot of stuff,
like she she would like to talkto you.
And I said, Well, like I've I'vechanged a lot too.

(36:58):
And like I think about this,like if if I've become such a
different person, it'sunreasonable to assume that she
hasn't had the opportunity atleast to become a different
person as well.

SPEAKER_00 (37:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (37:10):
But the the thing that holds me back, and I don't
know if it's reasonable or not,I'll just unpack on you.
You'll be my my therapist today.

SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
Go for it.

SPEAKER_04 (37:18):
Um is that like I'm finally at the point where like
I don't cry when I think aboutmy mom.
I don't like get frustrated, Idon't get angry all the time
when I think about my mom.
In fact, I can go like weeks oreven months sometimes without
thinking about my mom.
It it's just such a like it'snot like a happy place, but it's
a it's a functional place.

(37:40):
And I I don't know if I couldhandle grieving her loss a
second time.
Like if I was to to go back andsay, okay, well, let's give this
a shot, let's see if we if arelationship can be found here,
and then learn that oh no, it'sjust the same as it was before.
Like I I think it would just bemore devastating at this point
than it was originally.

SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
For me, it's an everyday decision.
I have to decide every day tonot talk to my parents.
And that's hard.
That's like me burying them.
And I don't like that aboutmyself.
But on the other hand, I knowthat if I were to go back to
that relationship, yeah, I wouldjust be burying myself at that
point.

SPEAKER_04 (38:21):
Yeah, and that's the shitty thing.
I mean, the the the other partthat really complicates the
equation is that like whenyou're dealing with parents,
especially like when you startgetting into like full-on
adulthood, like 30 and up, yeah,your parents aren't exactly
young, right?
Like they're not gonna liveforever.

SPEAKER_01 (38:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (38:39):
And and I think like my mom, she's like pushing 80
years old at this point.
And it's like, how am I gonnafeel if I get the phone call
from my sister that says, Ohyeah, mom dropped dead today or
whatever?
Like, am I gonna am I gonna likehate myself?
Am I gonna feel guilty because Ididn't do something while I had
the time?
Like, I I worry about that stuffbecause I mean like again,

(38:59):
that's like another byproduct ofanxiety is you want to imagine
every possible outcome so youcan mentally prepare for it.
So nothing really surprises you.
Yeah, but like this is one ofthose things where I don't have
any point of reference to helpme imagine the possible
outcomes.
I don't know what it's gonna belike.
And that big question mark, it'salmost like it's a completely
separate but equally largeissue.

(39:21):
Yeah, I don't know how to dealwith this level of unknown, not
with something that's thatimportant.
And it's one of those thingswhere like I sometimes it's like
I I'll wake up in the morningand it's like, okay, well, today
I'm gonna call my sister Elleand I'm gonna be like, Okay, can
you give me mom's phone number?
Which is another sad thingbecause I don't even know where
my mom lives now.
But call my sister and say, Hey,can you give me mom's phone

(39:43):
number?
I want to phone her because youknow, if nothing else, before
she dies, I want her to knowthat even if we don't have a
relationship, that I love her.
And then I'll have my first cupof coffee and think, What the
hell are you thinking?
Like, that's just stupid.

SPEAKER_01 (39:56):
It's like people don't understand that.
They think, Oh, that that wouldbe nice.
Like any any normal person belike, Oh, that would be nice,
just tell your mom that you loveher.
But it's like what that actuallyreally does, then you're kind of
playing with fire.

SPEAKER_04 (40:07):
Well, yeah.
And the other question is like,nice for who?
Like, it's not gonna be nice forme.

SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (40:13):
And like I think about it, like on her end, I
mean, maybe she's at the samespot I'm at where it's like,
okay, maybe she cried for a longtime, maybe she was upset, maybe
she had regrets about the waythings went, maybe she's okay
right now, and maybe me reachingout just sort of like, you know,
craps all over that.
And like, is it fair to do thatto like a like at this point, a

(40:34):
complete stranger?

SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (40:37):
I I'm not in the business of sort of like, you
know, doing things that I knowfor a fact are gonna piss people
off or hurt them.
And like, even though the it'sprobably well justified to dish
out some hurt in my mom'sdirection, I just I can't bring
myself to do it.
I'm not that person.

SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
It's har it's hard for me too because you know, I
don't even have any siblingsthat I can talk to.
And so I don't have thatgo-between.
So you're just completelyguessing at the completely
guessing, completely guess.
I mean, well, not completely.
I when I was estranged, when Iwhen I cut it off from my
family, I was thinking they weregonna totally ignore me because

(41:10):
they had ignored me all my life,really.
And I was like, oh, they'll beglad now that I'm not, you know,
bugging them with my feelings,you know.
So, you know, and I thought theywould just forget about me.
But that was the time they paidmore attention to me than ever.
And it was all, you know,negative attention and it was
all, you know, they werespreading terrible rumors about,
you know, my husband and I weretotally not even true.

SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (41:33):
But when I examined them, all of those rumors that
they were spreading wereactually true about my sister.
Um, my sister was the onegetting divorced, my sister was
the one in having serious moneyproblems, and my sister was the
one that was losing her houseand you know, things like that.
And they were saying things likethat.
I was like, why are these rumorseven?

(41:54):
I was like, the only reasonthey're doing this is just to
hurt me or to deflect whatevershame they're experiencing, you
know, that they don't want tohave on themselves.
And and that's what they haddone to me all my life was, you
know, take their shame and kindof put it on me, shame on me
kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Yeah, that's really true.

SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
And so one, yeah, really nasty.
And so once I left, I wasn'taround for them to do that
anymore.
I wasn't around for them to dumpon me anymore.
So then they, you know, justspread rumors and they're like,
oh, yeah, they start talking topeople, and then then you hear
hear from, you know, someone whoheard from someone else who
heard from someone else.
Are you and your husband gettingdivorced?

(42:32):
No.
You know, and you know, at firstit it did hurt me.
It made me really, really upset.
And I was like, well, that'sexactly what they were trying to
do.
They weren't accomplishing by,you know, spreading those
rumors.
You know, they weren't doinganything but but trying to hurt
me.
And so I was like, I reallycan't talk to them.
Like I had to like cut outeverybody, and and and it

(42:53):
bothered me because I was like,that's not fair, you know, that
I gotta lose my whole, you know,community and friends.
But then I started to kind oflike, well, who is my friend?
You know, and I'm trying tofigure that out.
And then I realized, you know, alot of those people were kind of
the same way, yeah.
And um, I had been stuck in alot of toxic relationships
because I had kind of beengroomed to be in them, you know,

(43:13):
since I was a child.
And then so, you know, I getestranged and then I develop my
new way of thinking, my own wayof thinking, or just allowing
myself to think and settingthose boundaries and then
realizing, you know, thosepeople never respected my
boundaries ever.
And so then, you know, losingthat those friendships became a
little easier because I realizedhow rotten they were, and I
realized I could do so muchbetter and yeah, you know,

(43:36):
actually spend time with peoplewho actually care.

SPEAKER_04 (43:38):
Who uh like once once you identify one toxic
relationship, it makes it soeasy to spot all the other ones
in your relationship.

SPEAKER_01 (43:45):
Yeah, totally.
It was like that, it waseye-opening.
I was like, oh, you know, thatjust kind of put me off.
And I think about that, like,why do they do that?
And I was like, why do I feellike this?
And oh, my parents used to dothe same thing.
It's like, oh, duh, well, thisperson isn't really a good
person to be around.
This person's always done that,you know.
Like, then you get mad, like,this person's always treating me
like crap, you know, and so thenit's hard too.

SPEAKER_04 (44:06):
Like when you when you have a separation, like is
my my younger sister, just anasty person, like through this
this whole rift in the family,whatever, thought, okay, like
there's like one super toxicperson that isn't in my life
now.
And like with her not beingaround, it was actually like
okay, that's a sigh of reliefbecause like you mean your
sister?
Yeah, the younger one, likeshe's just not nice.

(44:28):
Then I don't know, I was likecurious about her kids because I
mean, like the kids, they're theones who really lose out in all
these kind of things.

SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (44:36):
And so I was sort of creeping her Facebook profile,
seeing if there was likeanything about the kids on there
to see how they're growing upand whatever.
And I saw that like we we hadn'ttalked at this point for maybe
like three years, and she hadposted like all these nasty like
cartoons that she'd drawn on me,or whatever.
Like, just she drew of you,yeah.
Like just a complete smack.

(44:57):
And that's like elementary.
I'm like, oh my god, like we'relike three years removed from
each other, and like you youcan't like just let me go, you
know.
Like, yeah, if you're soobsessed, why not just like say
or do something nice?
Like, you don't have to be thisway, but it that that sort of
hurt me.
I mean, just knowing that likesomebody's out there like going

(45:19):
out of their way to like youknow, basically besmirch my good
name.

SPEAKER_01 (45:23):
Yeah, and it puts perspective like for a while, I
was like, why are they you know,for a long time it was just
like, why, why are they doingthis to me?
Why are they treating me likethis?

SPEAKER_04 (45:31):
And that's what they do, that's what they do, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (45:34):
Like it's their personality, it's literally
their personality type.
And you know, I learned that incounseling.
I talked a lot about my mom andmy sister and some other people
in my family and the doctor, youknow, that my counselor was
like, they have well sounds likethis disorder, it sounds like
this disorder.
Why don't you read up on it andmaybe it'll help you, you know,
kind of handle them or you knowyou at least be able to have

(45:55):
your guard up a little bitbetter.
And but it all it did was justmake me mad because then I
noticed that like I was like,oh, you know, because it was
like they they they can help it,but on the other hand, they
can't, you know, it's like sowhat do I do?

SPEAKER_04 (46:07):
That's a tough thing too, because I mean, like when
you deal with mental illnessissues, it it's really rough
because like on one hand, like Iunderstand that like sometimes
the things I say and do becauseof my anxiety, I can't in the
moment really help it, right?

SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (46:23):
At the same time, I'm responsible for it.
I have to own it, I have toapologize for it, I have to make
it right.
It's just like you know,somebody's drunk and they run
over a pedestrian.
Well, guess what?
You're going to jail, you beingdrunk and unaware of what you're
doing really isn't a factor.

SPEAKER_01 (46:39):
Yeah.
You know, like you had warnings,you have you've been told, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (46:43):
Everything that leads up to the you being drunk
and out of control that you didhave control over, and with the
the the mental illness stuff,it's the same thing.
Yes, in the moment I losecontrol.
So what do I what do I do to tofix that moving forward?
I avoid allowing things to getto that moment of a of a loss of
control.
So if I can learn how to dothis, then certainly anybody

(47:07):
else could learn how to do ittoo.
I'm not like a superhuman, I'vegot access to like no better or
worse information than anybodyelse does.

SPEAKER_00 (47:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (47:16):
So the only difference between me and like
some of these, like I'll sayex-family members, the only
difference between us is Iactually care enough to do the
work to not be the shittyperson.

SPEAKER_01 (47:28):
No, I felt like that too.
I felt like all growing up, Ifelt like I was the one who was
keeping the family together.
And I don't know why I felt likethat because nothing I did did,
you know, helped that at all.
I mean, the whole narcissisticpersonality, I'll just say it
because I'm gonna talk about ita lot on my show.
Narcissistic personalitydisorder was what my mother and

(47:48):
my sister were indirectlydiagnosed with by several
therapists, not just mine, byseveral therapists who all
agreed, you know, on separateoccasions, not even knowing each
other that these people hadnarcissistic personality
disorders.
So that is one big reason whyI'm estranged from my family was
because of all that.
But you know, growing up, youdon't know that they have this

(48:09):
disorder.
You don't really see your familyas being mentally ill.
And you treat them.
No, they're just your normal.
Yeah, totally.
And, you know, yeah, totally.
It was totally like my normal.
And, you know, they made usthink that everyone else was
worse than we were.
And I kept looking around, I'mlike, oh, I don't think I
believe that.

(48:29):
You know, I was like, I don'tthink so.
I was like, I don't know, thesepeople have it pretty good, and
you know, and those were all thepeople my mom hated, you know.
Yeah, all the people that, youknow, had it better or were
genuinely nice people, and mymom just couldn't stand as a kid
when you're around people whohave you know those kind of
personalities where they don'treally they don't have any

(48:50):
control over what they do, oryeah, they I don't know, they
just do it to be mean or myfamily, they couldn't own up to
it.
If they hurt me or didsomething, you know, I would try
and say, Hey, that hurt myfeelings.
I wasn't even allowed to evenexpress that I had any feeling.

SPEAKER_04 (49:07):
And so it was like that with my mom too, like just
not approachable.

SPEAKER_01 (49:11):
Yeah, emotionally.
The things, you know, I'm seeingmy brother on drugs, and I'm
seeing my sister, you know, Idon't know, her whole thing, she
was just mean, but I feltemotionally responsible for
everyone because I was the onlyone who ever expressed any
emotion, at least or at least uhacknowledged any emotion.

(49:31):
People acted out on all theiremotions all the time, you know,
growing up, but we weren'tallowed to talk about it.
Right.
You know, we're allowed to talkabout our feelings.

SPEAKER_03 (49:44):
Are you enjoying When the Bow Breaks?
If so, visit us on Facebook.

SPEAKER_01 (49:49):
Like and share, I think, what are your plans?

(50:17):
I mean, I don't want to sayplans, but I don't know.
I guess how do you kind of hopethings go for you from here on?

SPEAKER_04 (50:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (50:27):
I know it's like a loaded question.

SPEAKER_04 (50:29):
It is a loaded question.
I'm just yeah, I guess I'm gonnaignore what you mean by it and
just go with what I think youmean by it.

SPEAKER_01 (50:35):
Yeah, yeah, go.
No, totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (50:37):
Well, you you know what this is like being a
podcaster, everything you talkabout ultimately will lead back
to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (50:43):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (50:43):
Um what I've what I've gotten out of like the last
year plus of doing my podcastwith with my brother is that
we've we've developed a lot ofnot just good communication
techniques with each other, butuh the other part is when you
have conversations that you arerecording and then you have the
opportunity to listen to later,you learn a lot of things about

(51:06):
the way you sound, the way youcommunicate, the way you talk,
not just the sound of yourvoice, but the way you use your
words.
And when you revisit some ofthese recorded conversations
sort of like months after thefact, where you're not like
clearly remembering them, you'realmost hearing them as though
another person would hear them.

SPEAKER_03 (51:22):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (51:23):
And that and that allows you to kind of like, oh
my, like that explains a lot ofmisunderstandings I've had.
So you sort of grow and moveforward from that.
So I guess like my my my biggestaspiration, my biggest goal like
from this day forward is just tokeep on that path, like just
keep on developing, keep onlearning, keep on trying to
better myself, not just for me,but also like so that I can be

(51:47):
like a kind of example for mykids that I didn't have for my
parents.
And also, you know, just foranybody who knows me, anybody
who crosses paths with me, Iwant them to be able to say,
like, hey, like I actually gotsomething positive out of that
conversation, like even thoughwe were just yucking it up.
Like, I feel like I learnedsomething about me today, you

(52:09):
know.

SPEAKER_01 (52:09):
Like, oh yeah, you definitely that's why I wanted
to start this.

SPEAKER_04 (52:12):
Like, you learn by talking about it, just like
having that positive influenceon other people, whichever form
that takes.
Like, I think like your show isawesome because like we're
having a conversation that a lotof people feel like it's subject
matter that maybe I should keepto myself.
Yeah, the truth is likeeverybody wants to hear your
story because your story and mystory they overlap.

(52:33):
Well, we talk freely with eachother, you know, like we all
empower each other.
We realize we're not in thisalone, we're all struggling
together.
It makes it easier for all of uswith in other areas of life to
realize that hey, we got thisone big thing in common.
Why are we fighting about thisother thing where we don't see
eye to eye?
Why can't we just appreciateeach other?
You know, so if I can have anyrole in promoting a world like

(52:58):
that, then yeah, that's what Iwant to do.
Like that's my passion rightnow.

SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Is there anything else like you want to say?
Like, I mean, is there anythingthat's like really helped you
throughout this?
Like anything you want to say toour listeners?

SPEAKER_04 (53:11):
For those people that are dealing with like the
loss of religion and loss ofsupport system that that goes
with that at the same time,check out like a lot just Google
the deconversion stories online.
There's so many people thatshare our story that are like
kind enough to like share theins and outs of their
experiences, really makes iteasy to cope with our own.

SPEAKER_01 (53:33):
Can you actually share the name of that again?

SPEAKER_04 (53:35):
I I don't remember the name of the site.
I just I I I I would Googledeconversion stories forums that
that that do that.
And some of the stories are justlike some of them make you
laugh, some of them make youangry, some of them make you
cry.

SPEAKER_00 (53:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (53:50):
But I mean, like reading these, that was probably
the single most helpful thingfor me.
So I encourage anybody, whetheryou're like estranged from a
religious family or you're areligious person who's got maybe
a non-religious uh family memberwho's taken their leave, just to
give you some perspective onmaybe where they're at.
The other thing uh I I'd like tosuggest, and this is gonna be a

(54:13):
shameless plug, is anybody whowants to hear about like the the
journey that my brother and Ihave been on as far as like what
we've learned with interpersonalrelationships, with
communicating with primarilywith like platonic
relationships, we like to talkabout as I think there's a
there's enough information aboutromantic stuff, but we don't

(54:33):
always know how to get alongwith our friends.
You check out our our ourpodcast for that and also to
hear our thoughts on whypolitical correctness gets in
the way of all of that.
We got a website, it'swww.missionarypod.com, and all
of the episodes are availablethere.

SPEAKER_01 (54:48):
It was great talking with you.

SPEAKER_04 (54:50):
Fantastic talking to you too.
No, I feel like I made a friendhere today.
I'm looking forward to talkingto you some more in the future.