March 13, 2023 • 40 mins
In episode 27,
we have part two of Kendall's solo session! We are wrapping up the chilling case of Dennis Nilsen. In part two we cover the three murders that Dennis committed, how he got arrested, and what happened during the murder trial. Viewer discretion is advised as sensitive topics are covered.
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Sources:
Levine, Shane Dennis Nilsen Killed My Father - Unabridged
Sept. 2020 , Dennis Nilsen
https://www.biography.com/crime/dennis-nilsen
Aug. 2021 Serena, Katie , Meet Dennis Nilsen, The ‘British Jeffrey Dahmer’ Who Terrorized 1970s And ’80s London
https://allthatsinteresting.com/dennis-nilsen
Aug. 2021 "Memories of a Murderer: The Nilsen Tapes" (Netflix)
Sept. 2020 Masters, Brian Killing For Company: The Case of Dennis Nilsen
Benson, Rhianna Dennis Nilsen: The full true story of a horrific serial killer
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifestyle/tv/dennis-nilsen-full-true-story-22853538
Dennis Nilsen Presentation https://youtu.be/QwVl3DmvTgA
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Before you start this episode, a quick advisory. Today's episode does cover
(00:05):
sexual assault, child abuse, suicide, and self-harm. This may be a lot for some
listeners that is completely okay and we hope to have you back next episode.
Listener discretion is advised.
He told how he liked to wash the bodies and keep them for company, sometimes
talking to them and sleeping with them for weeks after the killing.
(00:28):
They asked me how many of them were and I didn't really ask them a figure.
Because I was cooperating with the police and I decided I'll stick with it.
There were three of those victims who were invented just to compliment
the continuity of evidence of the police because they wanted to keep them happy.
On a weekend I would pull on the floorboards and I found it totally unpleasant.
(00:48):
I would get blinding drunk so I could face it and start this section on the kitchen floor.
Hello all of you strange and beautiful people.
I'm Kendall Hudson and you are listening to When the Light Goes Out.
(01:19):
Welcome back everyone to another episode of When the Light Goes Out.
This is your episode 27 which is another piece to our crazy case that we had started.
If you're listening to the order of the days that this comes out, you will know that I had released.
(01:40):
Dennis Wilson, the British Jeffrey Dahmer just a couple of days ago.
Here we are now for our part 2 of Dennis Wilson, the Muscle Heal Murders.
I really hope that you guys all liked the first part.
Again, I think I might have said this before but let me know what you think about that.
(02:04):
That was my first time doing a solo session.
It was very nerve wracking.
I don't know if you could tell my voice at first.
I was very, very nervous.
Even doing 27 episodes now I still get nervous doing this sometimes.
I definitely enjoyed it and we'll talk a little more about what this could look like for the future.
Bree will definitely be back.
(02:26):
That is one thing.
I definitely like doing this.
It's kind of fun.
Yeah, there's that.
I don't want to hold up too much time today with just my own banter.
Before we get started, I went to go see Scream 6 the other day.
Oh my God.
Go see it.
If you guys are horror movie fans, if you guys like the Scream franchise, I think this is one of the better ones.
(02:51):
Just my opinion.
You know me and my horror movies love them.
Oh my God, I just loved it.
I definitely would say it's a recommended movie to go see.
And yeah, that is all the horror movie topic talk I have for that.
Let's not waste too much time.
Let's go straight into our story.
So hopefully by now you've listened to part one of The Denys Nielsen.
(03:18):
And if you haven't, I would say go back, listen to it, and then come back to this episode.
Thanks for all those who have continued our story continues on March of 1982.
And the West End of London at Lester Square, which is a notable area where a lot of British musicians got their start.
(03:42):
There was a pub that 23 year old John Howlett have frequented around the time.
Pub workers and other regulars knew John to be a cool, laid back guy that loved meeting people and loved to drink.
Me too.
I'm actually drinking an angry orchard.
I'm drinking an angry orchard as we do this, you know, to settle the chills.
So I get that John.
(04:04):
So he was told to be kind of a quirky guy that always wore a funny looking wool hat that Dennis Nielsen would actually have drinks with from time to time.
Well, these two were not close, but they would greet each other in passing or while both drinking at the pub.
Dennis even nicknamed him John the guardsman because of his tall, woolly hat that looks like the king's guard.
(04:32):
You will kind of see standing in front of the Buckingham Palace.
I'm sure you guys have seen, you know, pictures of them standing in the red coats or red suits, which site note.
I'm always amazed at the thought that the guards that do that are standing in like 100 degree weather sometimes during the summertime.
And they're wearing these bare skin hats.
It's just crazy to think about.
Sorry, site note.
(04:53):
But any who March of 1982, John is chilling at his usual pub near Lester Square when in walks, Dennis, after several minutes of catching up after last seeing each other the previous year.
Dennis is like, Hey, man, why don't you ditch this pub, come to my new flat?
(05:15):
I promise I have more drinks me and we'll hang out.
Not a direct coat.
I had to throw in the mate.
Sorry, guys.
Now, no trusted sources could provide evidence that John was queer, but he did recognize Dennis and was kind of like, fuck it, free booze.
Why not?
So the two head over to Dennis's new flat that he just moved into 23 crainly gardens on Muswell Hill.
(05:40):
When they arrive, Dennis turns to the telly.
I can't stop using these British turns.
Don't hate me.
Everyone over there.
I'm sorry, guys.
They start to drink a bottle of rum that John had brought with him or they have brought or bought on the way to Dennis's flat.
According to the ass himself, Dennis later claimed that John had gotten so intoxicated that he ended up dosing off on Dennis's bed.
(06:04):
And Dennis asked John to leave, but he didn't answer.
Again, that's according to Dennis.
About an hour later, Dennis attempts to rape John as he's unconscious but starts getting frustrated because the man is intoxicated and wasn't getting aroused by Dennis.
So what does Dennis do?
Hmm.
Dennis yanks apart a loose upholstery strap from a armchair in the room, hops on top of John and begins to strangle him with it, which John must have had the fight or fight or fight response even in the midst of unconsciousness because John actually wakes up from that nap that he was having and starts fighting back.
(06:45):
And if you look up photos of a upholstery strap, those things are thick, like thick padding.
So it's amazing that John had the ability to fight back the way he did and especially see could because those look like they do some damage to someone.
I'm just saying.
So John is trying to overpower Dennis and he's also trying to strangle Dennis back, but Dennis reaches for the rum bottle and smashes it over John's head.
(07:11):
Dennis then goes into the bathroom to think about what to do next.
But in the next room, he hears that John is still murmuring.
So Dennis grabs the upholstery strap and then begins tightening it around his neck for three minutes.
Think about how long three minutes is choking someone for three minutes is a long time.
(07:33):
Eventually, John fell over, although still Dennis hurt John's heart still beating.
So he drags John's unconscious body into the bathroom, fills the bathtub with water and uses the weight of his body to hold John under the water until he was going to get up.
He leaves John's body in the bathwater the next entire day and only moved his body to the wardrobe so that he could bathe in it.
(08:00):
I'm not kidding you.
Can't make this shit up.
He didn't do anything with his body for days because now he's on top.
He's not on the top floor now.
So he didn't want any neighbors to see him disposing of the body.
But eventually days later, Dennis found an idea.
This idea will later backfire.
Dennis took a day off of work just to dismember John.
(08:23):
He thought it would be the best idea to get rid of John's remains by flushing any fragments of bone and flesh that would fit down the toilet.
This piece of shit sitting in the hot summer sun then boils John's head, hands and feet in a large metal cooking pot to melt the skin off of, the bone.
And then he fills the trash bags with deli-quested flesh and fills the bag with salt and places the trash bags into his wardrobe.
(08:53):
Any of the larger bones that he couldn't break down or flesh, he then decided to go into the little gated backyard of the flat and just throw the bones over the fence into a waste area with tall grass that was behind the flat.
Not one suspicion or witness came from this.
Now let's move on to October 31st, 1982.
(09:15):
By the way, this is the second October 31st in this case, which I find completely chilling.
The first October 31st case, if you remember, was Dennis's grandfather.
He was found in the boat dead on October 31st.
Here we are again, October 31st, 1982.
A man by the name of Archibald Graham Allen had just had a very unsettling argument with his wife, Leslie Allen.
(09:43):
He always went by the name Graham, so I'm just going to go by that.
In a documentary that I stumbled upon called Memories of a Murderer, The Nelson Tapes, which you can also stream on Netflix,
Graham's widowed wife Leslie shares that Graham had been a great husband.
They had a pretty poor household, but they may do.
(10:06):
But the biggest ongoing concern was that Graham had a huge reliance for some very hard drugs, and over time, Graham was changing.
On top of this, Graham and Leslie had a six-year-old son named Shane Levine, who is also in the documentary.
I actually did some digging, or more digging, and found a blog that his son wrote talking about Shane.
(10:32):
He wrote this about his father.
The blog that I found, the site's name is called Memories of a Heroin Head.
Interesting name.
Graham writes this long entry about what he remembers from that night, and just in general about who his father was.
Apparently, there was some notion about who his father was, people thought his father was when news reports came out about this.
(10:57):
I think it's just cool that Shane really wanted to have his point of view about growing up with his father.
If you guys want to check that out, I definitely say check it out. It's interesting.
I'll put it first in the show notes, so it's easier to find if you want to look at that.
But in it, he says, quote, about this night, quote,
I remember him arguing with my mother and demanding money for heroin.
(11:21):
He was drunk and cut, and she had taken refuge inside of the family house.
His violent demands took place from outside, standing on the window ledge and shouting through the glass.
He was hugged up there like some perverse embodied of Christ, black blood coming out of his mouth where he had punched his own face in,
and screaming for my mother's purse.
(11:44):
That was the last sight either of my mom or I saw of him.
Well, that and then finally coming down before casually skipping the low garden wall and disappearing into the night.
That image haunts my mother, and what haunts her even more were her very last words, quote,
fuck off and never come back.
(12:06):
He didn't, unquote.
I got chills from reading that I'm sure you guys did too. That is horrifying to even think about.
Well, after Graham left his house that evening, he had walked several miles down the street to Shassebury Avenue when he finally tried to wave down a cab.
Now, no cab stopped for him because he was clearly high and stumbling over.
(12:32):
So taken from witness testimony, they saw Graham really struggling in the street when a tall unidentified identifiable man had come up to Graham,
helped him up and walked off with him.
This was of course, Dennis Nielsen, and Dennis had invited Graham over to stay the night at his home.
(12:55):
So Dennis brings him back to the flat on Mussel Hill where he cooks Graham some food, precisely it was an omelet,
and that kind of comes back later. If I can remember, I didn't put in my notes later, but it does come back later.
And while Graham is eating at the dentist's table, Dennis takes a piece of rope and begins to strangle him with it.
(13:16):
This next part is very detailed and very go-task, so for warning, skip ahead if you may be a little hesitant towards this.
After Dennis strangles Graham, he just leaves his body in the same spot for the next two days while Dennis just went to work until he could figure out how to dispose of his body without getting any neighbors' attention.
(13:38):
In between this time, Dennis had sat and watched TV with his corpse, and on the third day after Graham was murdered, Dennis dragged his corpse into his bedroom.
Oh my god, this is really gross.
He dragged his corpse into his bedroom, stripped some naked, covered his body in that talcum powder that Dennis had used when he was in the army on himself,
(14:01):
forced his corpse to stand up in front of him and look at him in the mirror while he masturbated to him.
And I'm so sorry, that is literally the right-of-our version of what he did.
He had done so much terrible things to Graham that I personally don't feel comfortable hearing him out of my own mouth, so I probably won't go that far,
(14:23):
but believe that he did some really bad things to poor Graham.
Afterwards, Dennis dismembered the body in his bathtub, flushed what remains could be flushed down the toilet,
boiled the rest of his remains in a giant silver pot, and tossed any remaining remains over the fence into the waste area behind the flats.
(14:47):
So this all happened towards the end of October of 1982.
Police were not called on Graham's disappearance because initially his family expected him to eventually come back home.
They thought he would get himself together, come back home, he had done it before.
They figured he did it before he can do it again, which is just really sad to even think about.
(15:09):
I couldn't imagine how sad that must be for the family of Graham, and especially for the other victims thus far.
So this takes us to January 26, 1983.
So now we are two weeks away from where the story first started.
Nelson had murdered his final victim. This was a 20-year-old boy by the name of Stephen Sinclair.
(15:33):
Now, there is not a ton of information I could find about Stephen, about his background specifically,
but locals had known him to be a younger kid that may have been living on the streets,
and either ran away from home or was kicked out of his home maybe for sexuality reasons,
was notorious in the 80s, so it's not surprising.
Globally, too, I wouldn't say it's just here in the States.
(15:57):
To locals, Stephen was known as what they would call a rent boy.
This is just another term for a male prostitute.
Acquaintances of Stephen would later recount seeing Stephen the night of January 26
around Leicester Square heading down Oxford Street in the direction of the Tube Station,
(16:18):
which is another word for the London Transit System.
Now, there Stephen was stopped by a strange man with dark hair in glasses, and the two walked off together.
Well, with the promise of buying Stephen a hamburger, Dennis brought Stephen back to his place.
There, they drank some booze, and according to Dennis' confession tapes,
(16:39):
Stephen had taken Al Acerringe and shot up with heroin,
and fell almost instantly out of it while Dennis sat and just watched,
sorry, not watched, but just played some rock opera music,
which I have never heard of rock opera music before.
I'm sure it's amazing, and I'm sorry that I just ruined it by saying Dennis had to listen to that.
(17:02):
Now, again, according to Dennis, he knelt down beside Stephen with a ligature he had combined
with half rope and half dress tie, and whispered in Stephen's ear, quote,
Oh, Stephen, here we go again, unquote.
Fucking disgusting.
There are crime scene photos of this terrible tie rope contraption that he used that I will post on our Instagram as well.
(17:28):
So if you want to see that, you can go to our Instagram and look at that.
What really broke me was I was listening to the tapes,
and this is regarding a suicide attempt, so you can push that skip ahead button if this is too much.
I recognize within Dennis' thick Scottish accent, he later recounted strangling Stephen,
(17:49):
but after he noticed that there were these bandages covering Stephen's arms under his sleeves.
When Dennis removed them, he saw gashes where he attempted to end his own life.
Like, I get choked up to saying that, but that's really sad, but, like, I have so many thoughts,
but I'm going to keep going.
(18:11):
Okay, you can come back now if you had skipped ahead. We're back.
So Dennis followed the same fucking ritual that he had followed up with the last two victims.
He raped the body, sleeps with it for several days,
and when the body got too ripe, he followed up by dismembering Stephen's body.
Afterwards, he flushes, cooks, and bags the remains.
(18:35):
And then just goes to work the next day like nothing happened.
February 4th, 1983 is where we're at.
Six days after Stephen Sinclair's murder, Dennis decides to write a letter to his state agents
and complaining about his trains getting clogged.
Let me tell you, this man had no idea he was the reason for this.
(18:58):
I don't know how this went over his head.
I would have, I don't know, but crazy enough other tenants have been calling about the same problem.
So whether it was Dennis, it would have been someone else either way.
So four days later, the agents get an employee from a plumbing company called Dino Raw to come and
inspect the problem. This employee was Michael Cataran, or Catran. Sorry if I butcher that.
(19:23):
After Michael is a little freaked out from finding what he thinks are animal bones and flesh,
he describes to the tenants that there are some fleshy substances and bone packed in the drain.
After he says this, Dennis jokes, quote,
Someone must have been flushing down their Kentucky fried chicken.
Direct fucking quote, that's not even a fucking made up quote.
(19:46):
He actually said that. It's crazy.
Whoa, I, I, I can't even, I can't even, like, are you fucking serious, dude?
So our host of the man, Michael, tells the tenants, I have my supervisor and I return tomorrow morning
so we can clear out the drains. So they do just that.
The next day comes, they go into the manhole to clear out the pipes.
(20:08):
But mysteriously, it seems as if someone had already cleaned or tried to clean out the tons of substances
that was there before. After close examination, the Dino Raw employers, or sorry, workers,
realized that they didn't think this was just an animal, but they were right.
And the pipe that was specifically causing the issue led up to floor of flat 23.
(20:34):
So immediately that morning police are called. They arrive to see tenants hovering around the area
and eventually a pathologist is called in to confirm the remains are in fact human remains.
Also, yes, Dennis's dumbass tried to get rid of that evidence the previous night.
Luckily, another tenant from the bottom level of their building had seen Dennis,
(20:57):
very frantic and weird coming and going from his place that night, and said, quote,
hey, you may want to check this guy out. He is newer. He's a newer tenant and his name is Dennis.
So the two inspectors and one cop wait out about an hour and a half from Nelson to come back home
where they follow up with him to his flat for questioning.
(21:20):
Immediately before he even opened the door, the smell of decomp flooded through the doorway.
Now not everyone knows that the smell of decomp may smell like so.
Again, I don't even know what that smells like. I don't want to. But I think in the moment if you smelt it,
you wouldn't know it because you have never smelt it before. So these cops know what decomp smells like.
They work with us all the time.
(21:41):
So this is when inspector inspector J asked what the smell was to Dennis and Dennis kindly answered
what you're looking for is stored in the bags around the apartment.
Inspector McCuster says stop messing around. Where's the rest of the body? So Dennis walks over to the bedroom,
points to the wardrobe, inside they find the two massive trash bags.
(22:06):
Dennis is then handcuffed and brought in under suspicion of murder on the way to the police station.
Inspector McCuster asks, are we talking about one body or two here? Dennis immediately replies, quote,
15 or 16 since 1978.
Dennis had a formal questioning and during Dennis had a full confession at the ready.
(22:31):
Dennis's questioning lasted over 30 hours within one week. That's how much he had to say.
Investigators did little to pull information out of him and just sat listening and recording every last murder that Dennis had committed.
And they are just in complete shock that no one suspected this man had murdered this many men and boys in a flat where other people lived.
(22:55):
Dennis even led police back to the old flat that he used to live in. It was on the one on Melrose Avenue from part one.
And according to officials, he was happy and unbothered to show officials where he had buried his first dozen bodies
in this old garden under floorboards.
(23:16):
I don't think anyone moved into the flat he had lived in right after, but Dennis still lived in that building
and all the bodies had still been there at that time, all that time, just living there, just under the floorboards.
On everything that remains from the garden took weeks and to months because there are so many bone fragments in the dirt.
(23:39):
It wasn't just one different body that was just bone fragments everywhere.
But what is also insane are the amount of victims that Dennis either let leave or managed to escape.
According to murderpedia.com, many young men and even a woman came home with Nelson and left unharmed,
but a few just barely managed to escape. And some of those had made police reports.
(24:04):
A more thorough investigation may have saved some lives. Nelson claims that he had made seven attempts in which he was either
fought off or later changed his mind. He recalls the names of only four, but three of them had testified against him at trial.
So one of the victims we had mentioned in part one was Andrew Ho. This was October 1979.
(24:28):
He had filed a complaint with police by Andrew said Nelson had attacked him by Andrew decided not to make a written statement
or agreed to attend court as a witness. So there was no follow up on that.
One year later, Douglas Stewart said that Dennis had attacked him.
He had he said that he had fallen asleep in the armchair, waking to find his feet tied and Nelson putting a tie around his neck.
(24:55):
He fought back knocking Nelson over and Nelson had told him to leave.
He called the police to 195 Merrill's Ave on August 11th, 1980, around 4am.
But they noticed that he had been drinking. They knocked at the door.
Dennis seemed surprised by what they said. They figured it was a heterosexual thing.
Like I said, I'm sorry, not heterosexual homosexual thing. So they're like, oh, this is a gay thing we wouldn't understand.
(25:22):
So Stewart failed to follow up and he just, I guess, got cold feet, got worried, got nervous.
Who knows? But unfortunately, that was another victim on November 23rd, 1981, around Nelson's 36th birthday.
He took a 19 year old queer student by the name of Paul Knobbs back to his house and they started drinking together.
(25:47):
They went back, they went, then went to bed and Knobbs had woke up at 2.30 in the morning with a terrible headache.
He woke up again at 6 and went into the kitchen and the mirror there he had saw a deep red mark across his throat.
The white of his eyes were bloodshot and his face looked really bruised.
(26:08):
Nelson had commented that he looked awful and advised him to see a doctor.
That day Knobbs visited the university infirmary and he learned that, um, yeah, what you have is called someone's wrinkle to you.
And so he, I don't know why, but he did kind to report this incident.
(26:30):
Now, again, I can't say why for these people and I don't want to speak for them.
I can only give maybe why I think they didn't want to. Again, I think it was because either it was a homosexual thing, you know, in the time of the 80s, homosexuality was a thing.
I think already over here in America, there was a whole satanic panic.
(26:54):
So it was just like anything that was outside of the norm or quote unquote norm was just automatically seen as sinful or people just didn't want to deal with it.
I assume that a lot of these victims just got freaked out or just didn't want to say anything because they didn't want to, all these people is just being on their ass about this.
And so it's sad, but that's the thing.
(27:15):
So according to English law, the police have 48 hours to charge Nelson or they had to release him and they are just learning about all this shit.
So they just got to work as soon as they could.
They identified the remains of Nelson's victims or some of them, one of whom was positively identified as Graham.
And police had informed the wife of Graham Nestle, sorry, Leslie, that Graham had been murdered, which ironically, she had been learning about the serial killer on the news that same day.
(27:46):
Heartbreaking.
So on February 11th, 1983, Dennis was formally charged with the murder of Steven Sinclair and was held on remand until the trial date.
Remand is basically just custody. While being held, Dennis made his custody a living hell for other officers.
He refused to wear a prison uniform and he would just literally sit in his fucking cell naked.
(28:11):
And once he literally threw his feces at prison guards, which resulted in solitary confinement, which good for you, asshole.
So this shit bags trial started on October 24th, 1983 at the Old Bailey. The Old Bailey is actually a very well known historic court building in England.
And he was charged with six counts of murder and two of attempted murder.
(28:34):
The defense council, which was Ian Lawrence, really tried to argue that Dennis had suffered from diminished responsibility and the inability to form a reason to commit murder.
And that he should only be convicted of manslaughter. But the prosecution, which was Alan Green, says, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
This man knew what he was doing and killed his victims with premeditation, which I agree. He knew exactly what he was doing throughout and through and through.
(29:03):
He had yet many a times to say, I have to stop. I cannot do this anymore. No, he just continued doing this with a handful of just innocent people.
And maybe they were innocent. I guess, quote unquote, with morals or whatever. But come on, none of us are innocent when it comes down to it.
(29:25):
No one deserves to lose your life. The witnesses to testify for the prosecution were Douglas Stort, Paul Knobbs, and Carl Stodder, I think I'm saying that correctly, who were all the victims that managed to escape from Dennis,
not all the victims, but some of the victims. Detective J testified also to share that during Nelson's arrest, his 30 hour confession was very matter of fact, and that he had nowhere worse for what he had done.
(29:52):
Again, I agree. You can look at these videos online very easily. It's very matter of the fact. It's very, yeah, he just goes on and on and on.
Like he's proud of himself. This asshole just does not care that he killed all these people. Also prior to the trial, two psychiatrists testified on behalf of the defense.
The first was James McKeith, who stated, quote, through a lack of emotion and development, Nelson experienced difficulty expressing any emotion other than anger and his tendency to treat other human beings as components of his fantasies.
(30:30):
Unquote. The second psychologist, the second psychiatrist, Patrick Galloway, diagnosed him with narcissistic personality disorder, stating, quote, in the episodic breakdowns, Nelson became predominantly chiseled acting and impulsive.
Sorry, I said that we were on. Okay. The second psychologist, the second psychiatrist, Patrick Galloway diagnosed him with a narcissistic personality disorder, stating, quote, in episodic breakdowns, Nelson became predominantly chiseled acting in an impulsive, violent and sudden manner, which I also kind of agree.
(31:14):
I don't know. I can I have no comment on the narcissistic personality disorder part. I mean, sure. So whatever.
Following the closing arguments of both prosecution and defense, the jury retired to consider their verdict on the 3rd of November, 1983.
The following day, the jury returns with a majority verdict of guilty upon six counts of murder and one attempted murder with a unanimous verdict of guilty in relation to the attempted murder of knobs.
(31:49):
The judge, which was Judge Chrome Johnson, since since Dennis to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years at Wormwood Scrubs prison in West, West London.
And December of 1983, Dennis was caught on the face and chest with a razor blade from a another inmate named Albert Parkhurts, which go Albert.
(32:14):
Don't know what you did. You're asshole too, but good.
And then was transferred to Wakefield prison until 1990 and then was transferred again to Whitmore prison. And then finally full set in prison in 1991 as category eight prisoner where he was separated from any other prisoners because they would not stop beating his ass, where he lived until his death came on May 10th, 2018.
(32:41):
Now he died from a blood clot to that ruptured, causing a abdominal aortic aneurysm. So wow. But you know, rest in distress.
If any of you wanted to see the actual pots that Dennis Nielsen used to melt flesh, it is on display at the Black Museum and New Scotland Yard, Victoria, where their displays literally a fucking replica of his kitchen. I kid you not.
(33:11):
I can cross pictures, I guess to this to.
Yikes. And I also found that towards the end of my research that they are seriously still selling pots and pans that he used to own online. I don't give a fuck what anyone says that's really messed up. Please don't do that. Don't don't buy that stuff.
(33:32):
Bad. No, no, no. And according to Entertainment Daily, as of 2016, a couple does live in the muscle heel home that they bought for 493,000 pounds. Wow. And.
Oh, wow.
That's just crazy. Also, I did read something. Oh my God. I was meant to say that it does come back that Dennis during the whole trial period.
(34:02):
It was kind of discussed because I said that Dennis had all these confessions. Now one thing about this confession tapes. And one thing about serial killers that I hate is that they are always quick to tell everything from start to finish about how they did these
murders. It's always in their point of view, though, it's never the truth. Like half the stuff they did in specific are never all there. And I just want to say real quick to I didn't put this in my notes. I didn't want to forget it.
(34:31):
But it was during the trial period where Dennis had tried to, I guess, quote unquote, convince the jury that Graham had died in some weird way. And he didn't remember how he died because he said when he had been eating the omelette, he came back into the room
and he just had the omelette falling out of his mouth and just sat there. Bullshit. We all know that was a lie. The jury saw right through it. It was all just false, all false. So that that was really just interesting because I was just thinking about how
(35:06):
wow, there's always always these fucking confessions and then they never and even like then it's just like, like, I feel like you never really know, obviously, because the victims are gone. So you can't really know. And these families don't have the right culture of just knowing
like what happened that situation. Why? Why how could this been avoided? It's just, it always just gets me every single time and and the victims just just learning about all these victims during this case.
(35:36):
And from start to finish was a lot. It took me a long time to research a lot of this. And so I really hope I gave the victims and enough background and enough gratitude towards their lives that I could have. I really wanted to tell the stories as
I could without telling too much because this is a very, very dark case. And whenever you do a dark case, I try my best not to poke jokes at the case itself more towards maybe if anything, the killer, but also maybe in between just like something a little more satire
(36:14):
and just break the ice because it gets a little it gets a little uncomfortable. I get that. Well, everyone, that is the very chilling and horrific case of Scottish serial killer, Dennis Nelson.
I hope everyone enjoyed. Well, maybe not enjoyed, but found my way of telling this case interesting. I try to make it interesting as possible. Again, it took me a while to get this case done, but I wanted to do it right. I wanted to do it as authentic as possible.
(36:44):
I know that hearing cases of some of the most fucked people in this world can be fascinating in the in the sense that monsters do exist in this world. They live among us and they are human beings. It makes me sometimes want to never leave my house, but unfortunately, sometimes we're even saving our own homes.
But I'm excited for next week's case that we will be covering. I believe Brie should be back. I did enjoy doing this session. So maybe in the future, we can do more. I don't know yet.
(37:17):
I'm continuing each week to construct our patreon on top of all the research. So it's a lot. I'm sorry. I really want us to come out with some patreon stuff. We have some really cool when the like those out things, like products and stuff that we're trying
to get out more to come with that later. And we will have options to have bonus content. We just need feedback from you guys. This we do this because we have listeners. So if you're listening to this, send me feedback as any way you can send some suggestions and thoughts.
(37:54):
How did I do? Do you still like doing solo stuff? Do you still like hearing solo sessions? And if so, send some suggestions and thoughts. How did I do? Do all of you like these solo sessions? And if so, I'll do more and we'll look into that a little more in the future.
(38:15):
And also if some spooky shit or straight up scary shit has ever happened to you or anyone you know, write it, type it down, send it to us. We will love to collect a listener stories from all of our listeners or not maybe everybody, but most of our listeners until there are enough to read on the show.
So that's something we're really trying to build up to. You can stay anonymous if you want. You can mention your name, we'll mention you if you want that. And we'd be more than happy to get the community going here. That's something I really want going here, our community.
(38:52):
So after a while, we can have that going for us. You can follow us on WTLGO podcast. You can send us any emails that you'd like to send us. That is WTLGO, WTLGO, inquiries at gmail.com.
(39:13):
Before we end this episode completely, just on top, I just remembered one thing to regarding the case. This is regarding Graham's son. I did read something else that I just came to mind about that his son had come under fire, I think recently with there is a, I don't know if it's a TV show or something on BBC, but I know that David Tennant, I think was starring as Dennis
(39:41):
Nielsen and his grandson did not like that at all. And I just thought it was really interesting too. I've never seen it. I don't even know what's out or not yet, but I know that it is really recent that this was a thing. So that was just some more recent news.
But yeah, I hope that you guys really like this hearing this case and thank you all for listening again. This is always like really scary to do sometimes because I always want to do it right. I'm always a little nervous because I do put so much time into a case and I just wonder, you know, did I do enough?
(40:21):
Did I reach everything? And again, this case is huge, a huge case. So there's so much more that I'm sure I didn't even touch on that is within it, but I wanted to hit on the biggest points. I think those are the most important points.
So that's what I try to stick on. Well, everyone, you have a great week. We will see you back here very soon. I'm going to go have some dinner because I'm hungry and we will see you next when the light goes out. See y'all soon. Bye.
Before you start this episode, a quick advisory. Today's episode does cover
(00:05):
sexual assault, child abuse, suicide, and self-harm. This may be a lot for some
listeners that is completely okay and we hope to have you back next episode.
Listener discretion is advised.
He told how he liked to wash the bodies and keep them for company, sometimes
talking to them and sleeping with them for weeks after the killing.
(00:28):
They asked me how many of them were and I didn't really ask them a figure.
Because I was cooperating with the police and I decided I'll stick with it.
There were three of those victims who were invented just to compliment
the continuity of evidence of the police because they wanted to keep them happy.
On a weekend I would pull on the floorboards and I found it totally unpleasant.
(00:48):
I would get blinding drunk so I could face it and start this section on the kitchen floor.
Hello all of you strange and beautiful people.
I'm Kendall Hudson and you are listening to When the Light Goes Out.
(01:19):
Welcome back everyone to another episode of When the Light Goes Out.
This is your episode 27 which is another piece to our crazy case that we had started.
If you're listening to the order of the days that this comes out, you will know that I had released.
(01:40):
Dennis Wilson, the British Jeffrey Dahmer just a couple of days ago.
Here we are now for our part 2 of Dennis Wilson, the Muscle Heal Murders.
I really hope that you guys all liked the first part.
Again, I think I might have said this before but let me know what you think about that.
(02:04):
That was my first time doing a solo session.
It was very nerve wracking.
I don't know if you could tell my voice at first.
I was very, very nervous.
Even doing 27 episodes now I still get nervous doing this sometimes.
I definitely enjoyed it and we'll talk a little more about what this could look like for the future.
Bree will definitely be back.
(02:26):
That is one thing.
I definitely like doing this.
It's kind of fun.
Yeah, there's that.
I don't want to hold up too much time today with just my own banter.
Before we get started, I went to go see Scream 6 the other day.
Oh my God.
Go see it.
If you guys are horror movie fans, if you guys like the Scream franchise, I think this is one of the better ones.
(02:51):
Just my opinion.
You know me and my horror movies love them.
Oh my God, I just loved it.
I definitely would say it's a recommended movie to go see.
And yeah, that is all the horror movie topic talk I have for that.
Let's not waste too much time.
Let's go straight into our story.
So hopefully by now you've listened to part one of The Denys Nielsen.
(03:18):
And if you haven't, I would say go back, listen to it, and then come back to this episode.
Thanks for all those who have continued our story continues on March of 1982.
And the West End of London at Lester Square, which is a notable area where a lot of British musicians got their start.
(03:42):
There was a pub that 23 year old John Howlett have frequented around the time.
Pub workers and other regulars knew John to be a cool, laid back guy that loved meeting people and loved to drink.
Me too.
I'm actually drinking an angry orchard.
I'm drinking an angry orchard as we do this, you know, to settle the chills.
So I get that John.
(04:04):
So he was told to be kind of a quirky guy that always wore a funny looking wool hat that Dennis Nielsen would actually have drinks with from time to time.
Well, these two were not close, but they would greet each other in passing or while both drinking at the pub.
Dennis even nicknamed him John the guardsman because of his tall, woolly hat that looks like the king's guard.
(04:32):
You will kind of see standing in front of the Buckingham Palace.
I'm sure you guys have seen, you know, pictures of them standing in the red coats or red suits, which site note.
I'm always amazed at the thought that the guards that do that are standing in like 100 degree weather sometimes during the summertime.
And they're wearing these bare skin hats.
It's just crazy to think about.
Sorry, site note.
(04:53):
But any who March of 1982, John is chilling at his usual pub near Lester Square when in walks, Dennis, after several minutes of catching up after last seeing each other the previous year.
Dennis is like, Hey, man, why don't you ditch this pub, come to my new flat?
(05:15):
I promise I have more drinks me and we'll hang out.
Not a direct coat.
I had to throw in the mate.
Sorry, guys.
Now, no trusted sources could provide evidence that John was queer, but he did recognize Dennis and was kind of like, fuck it, free booze.
Why not?
So the two head over to Dennis's new flat that he just moved into 23 crainly gardens on Muswell Hill.
(05:40):
When they arrive, Dennis turns to the telly.
I can't stop using these British turns.
Don't hate me.
Everyone over there.
I'm sorry, guys.
They start to drink a bottle of rum that John had brought with him or they have brought or bought on the way to Dennis's flat.
According to the ass himself, Dennis later claimed that John had gotten so intoxicated that he ended up dosing off on Dennis's bed.
(06:04):
And Dennis asked John to leave, but he didn't answer.
Again, that's according to Dennis.
About an hour later, Dennis attempts to rape John as he's unconscious but starts getting frustrated because the man is intoxicated and wasn't getting aroused by Dennis.
So what does Dennis do?
Hmm.
Dennis yanks apart a loose upholstery strap from a armchair in the room, hops on top of John and begins to strangle him with it, which John must have had the fight or fight or fight response even in the midst of unconsciousness because John actually wakes up from that nap that he was having and starts fighting back.
(06:45):
And if you look up photos of a upholstery strap, those things are thick, like thick padding.
So it's amazing that John had the ability to fight back the way he did and especially see could because those look like they do some damage to someone.
I'm just saying.
So John is trying to overpower Dennis and he's also trying to strangle Dennis back, but Dennis reaches for the rum bottle and smashes it over John's head.
(07:11):
Dennis then goes into the bathroom to think about what to do next.
But in the next room, he hears that John is still murmuring.
So Dennis grabs the upholstery strap and then begins tightening it around his neck for three minutes.
Think about how long three minutes is choking someone for three minutes is a long time.
(07:33):
Eventually, John fell over, although still Dennis hurt John's heart still beating.
So he drags John's unconscious body into the bathroom, fills the bathtub with water and uses the weight of his body to hold John under the water until he was going to get up.
He leaves John's body in the bathwater the next entire day and only moved his body to the wardrobe so that he could bathe in it.
(08:00):
I'm not kidding you.
Can't make this shit up.
He didn't do anything with his body for days because now he's on top.
He's not on the top floor now.
So he didn't want any neighbors to see him disposing of the body.
But eventually days later, Dennis found an idea.
This idea will later backfire.
Dennis took a day off of work just to dismember John.
(08:23):
He thought it would be the best idea to get rid of John's remains by flushing any fragments of bone and flesh that would fit down the toilet.
This piece of shit sitting in the hot summer sun then boils John's head, hands and feet in a large metal cooking pot to melt the skin off of, the bone.
And then he fills the trash bags with deli-quested flesh and fills the bag with salt and places the trash bags into his wardrobe.
(08:53):
Any of the larger bones that he couldn't break down or flesh, he then decided to go into the little gated backyard of the flat and just throw the bones over the fence into a waste area with tall grass that was behind the flat.
Not one suspicion or witness came from this.
Now let's move on to October 31st, 1982.
(09:15):
By the way, this is the second October 31st in this case, which I find completely chilling.
The first October 31st case, if you remember, was Dennis's grandfather.
He was found in the boat dead on October 31st.
Here we are again, October 31st, 1982.
A man by the name of Archibald Graham Allen had just had a very unsettling argument with his wife, Leslie Allen.
(09:43):
He always went by the name Graham, so I'm just going to go by that.
In a documentary that I stumbled upon called Memories of a Murderer, The Nelson Tapes, which you can also stream on Netflix,
Graham's widowed wife Leslie shares that Graham had been a great husband.
They had a pretty poor household, but they may do.
(10:06):
But the biggest ongoing concern was that Graham had a huge reliance for some very hard drugs, and over time, Graham was changing.
On top of this, Graham and Leslie had a six-year-old son named Shane Levine, who is also in the documentary.
I actually did some digging, or more digging, and found a blog that his son wrote talking about Shane.
(10:32):
He wrote this about his father.
The blog that I found, the site's name is called Memories of a Heroin Head.
Interesting name.
Graham writes this long entry about what he remembers from that night, and just in general about who his father was.
Apparently, there was some notion about who his father was, people thought his father was when news reports came out about this.
(10:57):
I think it's just cool that Shane really wanted to have his point of view about growing up with his father.
If you guys want to check that out, I definitely say check it out. It's interesting.
I'll put it first in the show notes, so it's easier to find if you want to look at that.
But in it, he says, quote, about this night, quote,
I remember him arguing with my mother and demanding money for heroin.
(11:21):
He was drunk and cut, and she had taken refuge inside of the family house.
His violent demands took place from outside, standing on the window ledge and shouting through the glass.
He was hugged up there like some perverse embodied of Christ, black blood coming out of his mouth where he had punched his own face in,
and screaming for my mother's purse.
(11:44):
That was the last sight either of my mom or I saw of him.
Well, that and then finally coming down before casually skipping the low garden wall and disappearing into the night.
That image haunts my mother, and what haunts her even more were her very last words, quote,
fuck off and never come back.
(12:06):
He didn't, unquote.
I got chills from reading that I'm sure you guys did too. That is horrifying to even think about.
Well, after Graham left his house that evening, he had walked several miles down the street to Shassebury Avenue when he finally tried to wave down a cab.
Now, no cab stopped for him because he was clearly high and stumbling over.
(12:32):
So taken from witness testimony, they saw Graham really struggling in the street when a tall unidentified identifiable man had come up to Graham,
helped him up and walked off with him.
This was of course, Dennis Nielsen, and Dennis had invited Graham over to stay the night at his home.
(12:55):
So Dennis brings him back to the flat on Mussel Hill where he cooks Graham some food, precisely it was an omelet,
and that kind of comes back later. If I can remember, I didn't put in my notes later, but it does come back later.
And while Graham is eating at the dentist's table, Dennis takes a piece of rope and begins to strangle him with it.
(13:16):
This next part is very detailed and very go-task, so for warning, skip ahead if you may be a little hesitant towards this.
After Dennis strangles Graham, he just leaves his body in the same spot for the next two days while Dennis just went to work until he could figure out how to dispose of his body without getting any neighbors' attention.
(13:38):
In between this time, Dennis had sat and watched TV with his corpse, and on the third day after Graham was murdered, Dennis dragged his corpse into his bedroom.
Oh my god, this is really gross.
He dragged his corpse into his bedroom, stripped some naked, covered his body in that talcum powder that Dennis had used when he was in the army on himself,
(14:01):
forced his corpse to stand up in front of him and look at him in the mirror while he masturbated to him.
And I'm so sorry, that is literally the right-of-our version of what he did.
He had done so much terrible things to Graham that I personally don't feel comfortable hearing him out of my own mouth, so I probably won't go that far,
(14:23):
but believe that he did some really bad things to poor Graham.
Afterwards, Dennis dismembered the body in his bathtub, flushed what remains could be flushed down the toilet,
boiled the rest of his remains in a giant silver pot, and tossed any remaining remains over the fence into the waste area behind the flats.
(14:47):
So this all happened towards the end of October of 1982.
Police were not called on Graham's disappearance because initially his family expected him to eventually come back home.
They thought he would get himself together, come back home, he had done it before.
They figured he did it before he can do it again, which is just really sad to even think about.
(15:09):
I couldn't imagine how sad that must be for the family of Graham, and especially for the other victims thus far.
So this takes us to January 26, 1983.
So now we are two weeks away from where the story first started.
Nelson had murdered his final victim. This was a 20-year-old boy by the name of Stephen Sinclair.
(15:33):
Now, there is not a ton of information I could find about Stephen, about his background specifically,
but locals had known him to be a younger kid that may have been living on the streets,
and either ran away from home or was kicked out of his home maybe for sexuality reasons,
was notorious in the 80s, so it's not surprising.
Globally, too, I wouldn't say it's just here in the States.
(15:57):
To locals, Stephen was known as what they would call a rent boy.
This is just another term for a male prostitute.
Acquaintances of Stephen would later recount seeing Stephen the night of January 26
around Leicester Square heading down Oxford Street in the direction of the Tube Station,
(16:18):
which is another word for the London Transit System.
Now, there Stephen was stopped by a strange man with dark hair in glasses, and the two walked off together.
Well, with the promise of buying Stephen a hamburger, Dennis brought Stephen back to his place.
There, they drank some booze, and according to Dennis' confession tapes,
(16:39):
Stephen had taken Al Acerringe and shot up with heroin,
and fell almost instantly out of it while Dennis sat and just watched,
sorry, not watched, but just played some rock opera music,
which I have never heard of rock opera music before.
I'm sure it's amazing, and I'm sorry that I just ruined it by saying Dennis had to listen to that.
(17:02):
Now, again, according to Dennis, he knelt down beside Stephen with a ligature he had combined
with half rope and half dress tie, and whispered in Stephen's ear, quote,
Oh, Stephen, here we go again, unquote.
Fucking disgusting.
There are crime scene photos of this terrible tie rope contraption that he used that I will post on our Instagram as well.
(17:28):
So if you want to see that, you can go to our Instagram and look at that.
What really broke me was I was listening to the tapes,
and this is regarding a suicide attempt, so you can push that skip ahead button if this is too much.
I recognize within Dennis' thick Scottish accent, he later recounted strangling Stephen,
(17:49):
but after he noticed that there were these bandages covering Stephen's arms under his sleeves.
When Dennis removed them, he saw gashes where he attempted to end his own life.
Like, I get choked up to saying that, but that's really sad, but, like, I have so many thoughts,
but I'm going to keep going.
(18:11):
Okay, you can come back now if you had skipped ahead. We're back.
So Dennis followed the same fucking ritual that he had followed up with the last two victims.
He raped the body, sleeps with it for several days,
and when the body got too ripe, he followed up by dismembering Stephen's body.
Afterwards, he flushes, cooks, and bags the remains.
(18:35):
And then just goes to work the next day like nothing happened.
February 4th, 1983 is where we're at.
Six days after Stephen Sinclair's murder, Dennis decides to write a letter to his state agents
and complaining about his trains getting clogged.
Let me tell you, this man had no idea he was the reason for this.
(18:58):
I don't know how this went over his head.
I would have, I don't know, but crazy enough other tenants have been calling about the same problem.
So whether it was Dennis, it would have been someone else either way.
So four days later, the agents get an employee from a plumbing company called Dino Raw to come and
inspect the problem. This employee was Michael Cataran, or Catran. Sorry if I butcher that.
(19:23):
After Michael is a little freaked out from finding what he thinks are animal bones and flesh,
he describes to the tenants that there are some fleshy substances and bone packed in the drain.
After he says this, Dennis jokes, quote,
Someone must have been flushing down their Kentucky fried chicken.
Direct fucking quote, that's not even a fucking made up quote.
(19:46):
He actually said that. It's crazy.
Whoa, I, I, I can't even, I can't even, like, are you fucking serious, dude?
So our host of the man, Michael, tells the tenants, I have my supervisor and I return tomorrow morning
so we can clear out the drains. So they do just that.
The next day comes, they go into the manhole to clear out the pipes.
(20:08):
But mysteriously, it seems as if someone had already cleaned or tried to clean out the tons of substances
that was there before. After close examination, the Dino Raw employers, or sorry, workers,
realized that they didn't think this was just an animal, but they were right.
And the pipe that was specifically causing the issue led up to floor of flat 23.
(20:34):
So immediately that morning police are called. They arrive to see tenants hovering around the area
and eventually a pathologist is called in to confirm the remains are in fact human remains.
Also, yes, Dennis's dumbass tried to get rid of that evidence the previous night.
Luckily, another tenant from the bottom level of their building had seen Dennis,
(20:57):
very frantic and weird coming and going from his place that night, and said, quote,
hey, you may want to check this guy out. He is newer. He's a newer tenant and his name is Dennis.
So the two inspectors and one cop wait out about an hour and a half from Nelson to come back home
where they follow up with him to his flat for questioning.
(21:20):
Immediately before he even opened the door, the smell of decomp flooded through the doorway.
Now not everyone knows that the smell of decomp may smell like so.
Again, I don't even know what that smells like. I don't want to. But I think in the moment if you smelt it,
you wouldn't know it because you have never smelt it before. So these cops know what decomp smells like.
They work with us all the time.
(21:41):
So this is when inspector inspector J asked what the smell was to Dennis and Dennis kindly answered
what you're looking for is stored in the bags around the apartment.
Inspector McCuster says stop messing around. Where's the rest of the body? So Dennis walks over to the bedroom,
points to the wardrobe, inside they find the two massive trash bags.
(22:06):
Dennis is then handcuffed and brought in under suspicion of murder on the way to the police station.
Inspector McCuster asks, are we talking about one body or two here? Dennis immediately replies, quote,
15 or 16 since 1978.
Dennis had a formal questioning and during Dennis had a full confession at the ready.
(22:31):
Dennis's questioning lasted over 30 hours within one week. That's how much he had to say.
Investigators did little to pull information out of him and just sat listening and recording every last murder that Dennis had committed.
And they are just in complete shock that no one suspected this man had murdered this many men and boys in a flat where other people lived.
(22:55):
Dennis even led police back to the old flat that he used to live in. It was on the one on Melrose Avenue from part one.
And according to officials, he was happy and unbothered to show officials where he had buried his first dozen bodies
in this old garden under floorboards.
(23:16):
I don't think anyone moved into the flat he had lived in right after, but Dennis still lived in that building
and all the bodies had still been there at that time, all that time, just living there, just under the floorboards.
On everything that remains from the garden took weeks and to months because there are so many bone fragments in the dirt.
(23:39):
It wasn't just one different body that was just bone fragments everywhere.
But what is also insane are the amount of victims that Dennis either let leave or managed to escape.
According to murderpedia.com, many young men and even a woman came home with Nelson and left unharmed,
but a few just barely managed to escape. And some of those had made police reports.
(24:04):
A more thorough investigation may have saved some lives. Nelson claims that he had made seven attempts in which he was either
fought off or later changed his mind. He recalls the names of only four, but three of them had testified against him at trial.
So one of the victims we had mentioned in part one was Andrew Ho. This was October 1979.
(24:28):
He had filed a complaint with police by Andrew said Nelson had attacked him by Andrew decided not to make a written statement
or agreed to attend court as a witness. So there was no follow up on that.
One year later, Douglas Stewart said that Dennis had attacked him.
He had he said that he had fallen asleep in the armchair, waking to find his feet tied and Nelson putting a tie around his neck.
(24:55):
He fought back knocking Nelson over and Nelson had told him to leave.
He called the police to 195 Merrill's Ave on August 11th, 1980, around 4am.
But they noticed that he had been drinking. They knocked at the door.
Dennis seemed surprised by what they said. They figured it was a heterosexual thing.
Like I said, I'm sorry, not heterosexual homosexual thing. So they're like, oh, this is a gay thing we wouldn't understand.
(25:22):
So Stewart failed to follow up and he just, I guess, got cold feet, got worried, got nervous.
Who knows? But unfortunately, that was another victim on November 23rd, 1981, around Nelson's 36th birthday.
He took a 19 year old queer student by the name of Paul Knobbs back to his house and they started drinking together.
(25:47):
They went back, they went, then went to bed and Knobbs had woke up at 2.30 in the morning with a terrible headache.
He woke up again at 6 and went into the kitchen and the mirror there he had saw a deep red mark across his throat.
The white of his eyes were bloodshot and his face looked really bruised.
(26:08):
Nelson had commented that he looked awful and advised him to see a doctor.
That day Knobbs visited the university infirmary and he learned that, um, yeah, what you have is called someone's wrinkle to you.
And so he, I don't know why, but he did kind to report this incident.
(26:30):
Now, again, I can't say why for these people and I don't want to speak for them.
I can only give maybe why I think they didn't want to. Again, I think it was because either it was a homosexual thing, you know, in the time of the 80s, homosexuality was a thing.
I think already over here in America, there was a whole satanic panic.
(26:54):
So it was just like anything that was outside of the norm or quote unquote norm was just automatically seen as sinful or people just didn't want to deal with it.
I assume that a lot of these victims just got freaked out or just didn't want to say anything because they didn't want to, all these people is just being on their ass about this.
And so it's sad, but that's the thing.
(27:15):
So according to English law, the police have 48 hours to charge Nelson or they had to release him and they are just learning about all this shit.
So they just got to work as soon as they could.
They identified the remains of Nelson's victims or some of them, one of whom was positively identified as Graham.
And police had informed the wife of Graham Nestle, sorry, Leslie, that Graham had been murdered, which ironically, she had been learning about the serial killer on the news that same day.
(27:46):
Heartbreaking.
So on February 11th, 1983, Dennis was formally charged with the murder of Steven Sinclair and was held on remand until the trial date.
Remand is basically just custody. While being held, Dennis made his custody a living hell for other officers.
He refused to wear a prison uniform and he would just literally sit in his fucking cell naked.
(28:11):
And once he literally threw his feces at prison guards, which resulted in solitary confinement, which good for you, asshole.
So this shit bags trial started on October 24th, 1983 at the Old Bailey. The Old Bailey is actually a very well known historic court building in England.
And he was charged with six counts of murder and two of attempted murder.
(28:34):
The defense council, which was Ian Lawrence, really tried to argue that Dennis had suffered from diminished responsibility and the inability to form a reason to commit murder.
And that he should only be convicted of manslaughter. But the prosecution, which was Alan Green, says, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
This man knew what he was doing and killed his victims with premeditation, which I agree. He knew exactly what he was doing throughout and through and through.
(29:03):
He had yet many a times to say, I have to stop. I cannot do this anymore. No, he just continued doing this with a handful of just innocent people.
And maybe they were innocent. I guess, quote unquote, with morals or whatever. But come on, none of us are innocent when it comes down to it.
(29:25):
No one deserves to lose your life. The witnesses to testify for the prosecution were Douglas Stort, Paul Knobbs, and Carl Stodder, I think I'm saying that correctly, who were all the victims that managed to escape from Dennis,
not all the victims, but some of the victims. Detective J testified also to share that during Nelson's arrest, his 30 hour confession was very matter of fact, and that he had nowhere worse for what he had done.
(29:52):
Again, I agree. You can look at these videos online very easily. It's very matter of the fact. It's very, yeah, he just goes on and on and on.
Like he's proud of himself. This asshole just does not care that he killed all these people. Also prior to the trial, two psychiatrists testified on behalf of the defense.
The first was James McKeith, who stated, quote, through a lack of emotion and development, Nelson experienced difficulty expressing any emotion other than anger and his tendency to treat other human beings as components of his fantasies.
(30:30):
Unquote. The second psychologist, the second psychiatrist, Patrick Galloway, diagnosed him with narcissistic personality disorder, stating, quote, in the episodic breakdowns, Nelson became predominantly chiseled acting and impulsive.
Sorry, I said that we were on. Okay. The second psychologist, the second psychiatrist, Patrick Galloway diagnosed him with a narcissistic personality disorder, stating, quote, in episodic breakdowns, Nelson became predominantly chiseled acting in an impulsive, violent and sudden manner, which I also kind of agree.
(31:14):
I don't know. I can I have no comment on the narcissistic personality disorder part. I mean, sure. So whatever.
Following the closing arguments of both prosecution and defense, the jury retired to consider their verdict on the 3rd of November, 1983.
The following day, the jury returns with a majority verdict of guilty upon six counts of murder and one attempted murder with a unanimous verdict of guilty in relation to the attempted murder of knobs.
(31:49):
The judge, which was Judge Chrome Johnson, since since Dennis to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years at Wormwood Scrubs prison in West, West London.
And December of 1983, Dennis was caught on the face and chest with a razor blade from a another inmate named Albert Parkhurts, which go Albert.
(32:14):
Don't know what you did. You're asshole too, but good.
And then was transferred to Wakefield prison until 1990 and then was transferred again to Whitmore prison. And then finally full set in prison in 1991 as category eight prisoner where he was separated from any other prisoners because they would not stop beating his ass, where he lived until his death came on May 10th, 2018.
(32:41):
Now he died from a blood clot to that ruptured, causing a abdominal aortic aneurysm. So wow. But you know, rest in distress.
If any of you wanted to see the actual pots that Dennis Nielsen used to melt flesh, it is on display at the Black Museum and New Scotland Yard, Victoria, where their displays literally a fucking replica of his kitchen. I kid you not.
(33:11):
I can cross pictures, I guess to this to.
Yikes. And I also found that towards the end of my research that they are seriously still selling pots and pans that he used to own online. I don't give a fuck what anyone says that's really messed up. Please don't do that. Don't don't buy that stuff.
(33:32):
Bad. No, no, no. And according to Entertainment Daily, as of 2016, a couple does live in the muscle heel home that they bought for 493,000 pounds. Wow. And.
Oh, wow.
That's just crazy. Also, I did read something. Oh my God. I was meant to say that it does come back that Dennis during the whole trial period.
(34:02):
It was kind of discussed because I said that Dennis had all these confessions. Now one thing about this confession tapes. And one thing about serial killers that I hate is that they are always quick to tell everything from start to finish about how they did these
murders. It's always in their point of view, though, it's never the truth. Like half the stuff they did in specific are never all there. And I just want to say real quick to I didn't put this in my notes. I didn't want to forget it.
(34:31):
But it was during the trial period where Dennis had tried to, I guess, quote unquote, convince the jury that Graham had died in some weird way. And he didn't remember how he died because he said when he had been eating the omelette, he came back into the room
and he just had the omelette falling out of his mouth and just sat there. Bullshit. We all know that was a lie. The jury saw right through it. It was all just false, all false. So that that was really just interesting because I was just thinking about how
(35:06):
wow, there's always always these fucking confessions and then they never and even like then it's just like, like, I feel like you never really know, obviously, because the victims are gone. So you can't really know. And these families don't have the right culture of just knowing
like what happened that situation. Why? Why how could this been avoided? It's just, it always just gets me every single time and and the victims just just learning about all these victims during this case.
(35:36):
And from start to finish was a lot. It took me a long time to research a lot of this. And so I really hope I gave the victims and enough background and enough gratitude towards their lives that I could have. I really wanted to tell the stories as
I could without telling too much because this is a very, very dark case. And whenever you do a dark case, I try my best not to poke jokes at the case itself more towards maybe if anything, the killer, but also maybe in between just like something a little more satire
(36:14):
and just break the ice because it gets a little it gets a little uncomfortable. I get that. Well, everyone, that is the very chilling and horrific case of Scottish serial killer, Dennis Nelson.
I hope everyone enjoyed. Well, maybe not enjoyed, but found my way of telling this case interesting. I try to make it interesting as possible. Again, it took me a while to get this case done, but I wanted to do it right. I wanted to do it as authentic as possible.
(36:44):
I know that hearing cases of some of the most fucked people in this world can be fascinating in the in the sense that monsters do exist in this world. They live among us and they are human beings. It makes me sometimes want to never leave my house, but unfortunately, sometimes we're even saving our own homes.
But I'm excited for next week's case that we will be covering. I believe Brie should be back. I did enjoy doing this session. So maybe in the future, we can do more. I don't know yet.
(37:17):
I'm continuing each week to construct our patreon on top of all the research. So it's a lot. I'm sorry. I really want us to come out with some patreon stuff. We have some really cool when the like those out things, like products and stuff that we're trying
to get out more to come with that later. And we will have options to have bonus content. We just need feedback from you guys. This we do this because we have listeners. So if you're listening to this, send me feedback as any way you can send some suggestions and thoughts.
(37:54):
How did I do? Do you still like doing solo stuff? Do you still like hearing solo sessions? And if so, send some suggestions and thoughts. How did I do? Do all of you like these solo sessions? And if so, I'll do more and we'll look into that a little more in the future.
(38:15):
And also if some spooky shit or straight up scary shit has ever happened to you or anyone you know, write it, type it down, send it to us. We will love to collect a listener stories from all of our listeners or not maybe everybody, but most of our listeners until there are enough to read on the show.
So that's something we're really trying to build up to. You can stay anonymous if you want. You can mention your name, we'll mention you if you want that. And we'd be more than happy to get the community going here. That's something I really want going here, our community.
(38:52):
So after a while, we can have that going for us. You can follow us on WTLGO podcast. You can send us any emails that you'd like to send us. That is WTLGO, WTLGO, inquiries at gmail.com.
(39:13):
Before we end this episode completely, just on top, I just remembered one thing to regarding the case. This is regarding Graham's son. I did read something else that I just came to mind about that his son had come under fire, I think recently with there is a, I don't know if it's a TV show or something on BBC, but I know that David Tennant, I think was starring as Dennis
(39:41):
Nielsen and his grandson did not like that at all. And I just thought it was really interesting too. I've never seen it. I don't even know what's out or not yet, but I know that it is really recent that this was a thing. So that was just some more recent news.
But yeah, I hope that you guys really like this hearing this case and thank you all for listening again. This is always like really scary to do sometimes because I always want to do it right. I'm always a little nervous because I do put so much time into a case and I just wonder, you know, did I do enough?
(40:21):
Did I reach everything? And again, this case is huge, a huge case. So there's so much more that I'm sure I didn't even touch on that is within it, but I wanted to hit on the biggest points. I think those are the most important points.
So that's what I try to stick on. Well, everyone, you have a great week. We will see you back here very soon. I'm going to go have some dinner because I'm hungry and we will see you next when the light goes out. See y'all soon. Bye.
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