June 18, 2025 • 69 mins
We're diving into the fabulous world of Living Out, a unique 55+ LGBTQ community that’s all about creating a vibrant and accepting space for our fabulous queer elders. In this episode, we chat with Loren Ostrow, the mastermind behind this fantastic project, and trust me, you won't want to miss his insights on how Living Out stands out in a sea of retirement options. From its warm, inclusive vibe to its stunning amenities, Lauren shares how they’re flipping the script on aging in the LGBTQ community. We’ll also explore the importance of having a safe space where folks can genuinely be themselves without fear of judgment or prejudice. So grab your favorite drink and settle in—we're about to get cozy and learn about a retirement community that feels just like home!
Takeaways:
- Living Out is a unique community where LGBTQ seniors can thrive together and foster authentic connections.
- Mark Goldstein interviews Loren Ostrow about the importance of safe, welcoming retirement options for the LGBTQ community.
- The podcast discusses how Living Out addresses specific challenges LGBTQ seniors face, ensuring they feel accepted and valued.
- Listeners learn about the vibrant local culture in Palm Springs, where Living Out is situated, enhancing the resident experience.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Living Out
- SAGE
- Los Angeles LGBT Center
- National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
- Alice B. Restaurant
- Eisenhower Medical
- Brand G
- HRC
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Where Do Gays Retire?
Podcast where we help you inthe LGBTQ community find a safe and
affordable retirement place.
Join Mark Goldstein as heinterviews others who live in gay
friendly places around the globe.
Learn about the climate, costof living, health care, crime and
safety, and more.
(00:22):
Now here's your host, Mark Goldstein.
Have you ever wondered whatit's like to live in a 55 plus LGBT
community?
Well, stay tuned and find out.
Today we have our specialguest, Lauren Ostro, and I'll tell
(00:46):
you a little bit about Lauren.
Lauren is the driving forcebehind Living Out.
Lauren Ostro has an extensivebackground in large project development
and management.
Mr.
Ostrow and his companies havesuccessfully acquired, developed
and managed properties thatinclude casinos, hotels, shopping
(01:06):
centers, restaurants,condominiums, and other major commercial
real estate endeavors.
He serves as Chief ExecutiveOfficer and President of Living out
in Palm Springs.
Lauren holds a BA Degree fromthe University of Rochester, graduating
magna cum Laude, and an MBA inFinance and Accounting from the University
(01:30):
of Rochester, and a JD Degreefrom Stanford Law School.
Lauren is also a well knownmember of the LGBTQ community, both
as an active participant inLGBTQ causes and as a generous philanthropist.
Lauren has served on the Boardof Directors of the Los Angeles LGBT
(01:52):
center, the National Gay andLesbian Task Force, and Congregation
Cole Ami.
Lauren and his businesspartner Paul has been partners for
more than 40 years.
I know I screwed that one up.
(02:12):
Alanis.
He and his husband for morethan 430 years, Brian Newkirk, reside
in Palm Springs in Provincetown.
I even asked you the questionbefore and I still screwed it up.
And I'm now on the board of sage.
Oh, wow, okay, good Sage.
(02:34):
The New York sage, TheNational Sage or the.
No, there's only one sage.
It's the National Sage.
Oh, okay.
All right, that's good to know.
They used to be SAGEaffiliates, but that concept is not
there any longer.
So it's all one organization.
One organization.
Gotcha.
(02:54):
Okay, Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for coming.
Appreciate it.
Let's jump right in.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself other than what I screwed
up on your bio and your background.
Well, as you mentioned, I'm adeveloper and an operator of both
(03:17):
casinos and hotels overprobably 40 years.
And I've also been involvedfor over 30, 30 years now in LGBT
national organizations.
And from that I got the notionI'm answering a question maybe that
(03:41):
you're going to ask me later.
But I have learned over allthose years that there was going
to be a need for LGBT seniors,because just like any Other demographic.
Our community was going to age.
And I knew from myexperiences, particularly with the
(04:04):
center, the task force, andnow with sage, that there were very
few opportunities for, inparticular, market rate housing.
There have been more and moreopportunities for affordable housing,
typically done by charitable organizations.
(04:25):
The LA center has twoaffordable housing projects.
SAGE operates two affordablehousing projects.
Philadelphia has one.
The Resource center in Dallasjust opened their affordable housing
project.
The center in Wilton Manorsjust opened an affordable housing
project.
But that is a very differentanimal than market rate housing.
(04:50):
And for people who don'tqualify for affordable housing, because
you have to qualify with lowerincome levels were no opportunities.
And I had learned watchingvideos and Testaments, that people
were moving into environmentsthat were not particularly friendly
(05:11):
to them because they didn'thave an option.
They were getting older.
They needed either assistanceor they needed to be in a more communal
space.
And so they were going tomainstream communities where possibly
the staff or possibly theresidents did not accept them.
(05:35):
And so you hear stories ofpeople moving into these communities
and hiding their photographsbecause the photographs would show
somebody of the same genderwith them.
And, I mean, I just thinkthat's an anathema and something
that I did not want to accept.
So I thought long, long timeago that there would need to be housing
(06:00):
that would be for our people.
And so Paul and I, my partner,Paul Alanis and I have worked together
since 1976.
It's a very unusualpartnership to last that long.
He's a straight guy.
We sold our last Casino in2019, and Paul, who's known me all
those years, said, come on,Lauren, you've been talking about
(06:22):
doing this forever.
Let's go do it together.
So we built Living out and wecreated this community that is really
unique, I think, in the US andprobably in the world as a space
for LGBT people and its alliesand their allies.
(06:46):
But that focuses on ourcommunity, focuses on our culture,
and celebrates that as opposedto being a place where LGBT people
can live and be accepted.
But that whole culturalelement is really.
Missing, existing instead ofliving exactly their authentic selves.
(07:12):
Let me give you a perfect example.
My husband and I, we used tolive in Florida.
We lived there for four years.
So while we were there, wealways liked to look at different
places to live.
So not far from our home,there was another 55 plus community.
It happened to be onValentine's Day.
(07:33):
So we walked into the salesarea and looked around and wanted
to see some models.
So when we checked in thiswith this woman, and she welcomed
us and said, hi, gentlemen.
Oh, are you here to buy yourwives a Valentine's Day gift?
And we looked at each otherlike, oh, my God.
(07:55):
How could you even saysomething like that?
Like, you shouldn't even besaying that.
That's privilege.
We know that's privilege.
And so I was like, oh, my God.
And perfect example.
Yes, we do need communitieswhere we can be our authentic selves.
(08:18):
So thank you.
So just for an example,yesterday in Palm Springs, we have
an annual Sage and Friendsgathering, and it's a fundraiser
for Sage.
And we had it at Living Out.
It was the natural place tohave it.
We had it out on the lawn, oneof our lawns with 250 people.
(08:40):
And it was a celebration ofour community.
No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
That's great.
That's great to hear.
I'm sorry I missed it.
I was actually.
We came back to Phoenix twoweeks ago and we were in Cathedral
City.
We were living in CathedralCity for three months.
(09:01):
And did you come to see Livingout at all?
We didn't this time, but wewere there before.
I've seen it.
Oh, you've been there?
I've been there.
Okay.
I've been on a tour.
And that's.
Yep.
So I really liked it.
So.
Yeah.
But I have seen it.
Yes.
It's a really beautiful building.
(09:23):
It's a beautiful residential spaces.
It's a beautiful community and environment.
Yes, it is.
So what was.
So the inspiration was.
Because nothing like this everexisted before.
Correct, Right.
And I had seen the LA centeryears ago grappling with how we were
(09:48):
going to take care of our seniors.
That was an issue from a longtime ago.
The task force had the TaskForce Institute that did research
papers.
And I remember back in theearly 2000s reading about a paper
about the demographics of LGBTseniors, and it just was so obvious
(10:10):
to me that we needed to haveour own spaces.
So for our listeners that maynot be familiar with Living out,
what makes it different thanany other 55 or LGBTQ friendly communities?
What makes it different than those?
(10:32):
Well, it's very different fromany other 55 and older community,
mainstream community, verydifferent, for a variety of reasons.
One, if you go to 55 and oldercommunities, you will still see,
and my mother was in one foryears, that the main source of socialization
(10:54):
remains the children and the family.
That is not the case at Livingout because many of our residents
don't have children.
They don't have families thatthey are in touch with, and so their
source of socialization iseach other.
(11:17):
And that yields very different results.
In a mainstream community,people may hang out together, but
when push comes to shove,they're with their kids.
In our community, it'scommunity people really turn to each
other.
They turn to each other foremotional support.
(11:38):
They turn to each other intimes of fear, which we have now.
They turn to each other forall sorts of reasons.
So it's very different whenyou walk into living out, you see
how the people interact asfriends, not as fellow residents.
(12:01):
The second thing that'sdifferent is we're all about the
gay.
I mean, our.
We have programs like others do.
We have an art room and peopledo art projects.
Some of our residents arepainters and they paint in the art
room.
We have movies when some ofthem are mainstream movies.
We show a movie every day inthis beautiful theater.
(12:24):
With popcorn.
With popcorn.
With popcorn and candy.
I took some and I saw that inthe inventory and.
But a lot of our movies areabout our community or speak to our
community.
When you.
(12:44):
We built the theater very muchlike a traditional theater, unlike
Most of these 55, where youwalk in and the theater is right
there.
We have a ramp going down intothe theater, and along that ramp
are movie posters.
And my business partner walkedin and said, I don't know most of
(13:05):
these movies because they weremovies that are iconic in the LGBT
world and that are notnecessarily iconic in the mainstream
world.
He knew west side Story.
I give him credit.
I gave him credit.
But Desert Hearts is there.
(13:25):
Go Fish is there.
I don't even know how topronounce it.
E2 Cambie.
There's a poster there.
It's about our people.
And that's what this is about.
This is about our people.
So it's very different in that respect.
It's so different.
And even other LGBTcommunities are.
(13:46):
While there's a celebration ofour culture and our world, it's different
in that it is very spacious, luxurious.
It's very comfortable.
Our units, for instance, in anaffordable housing project, typically
(14:08):
the units, the apartments aremaybe 4 or 500 square feet.
Typically in most market ratesenior communities, the average one
bedroom is 6 to 700 square feet.
Our one bedrooms are 1100square feet.
Nice size.
So it's very different.
(14:28):
And our two bedrooms are1400-1800 square feet.
So it's very different in that respect.
And I just want to tell theaudience, these are rental apartments.
That's correct.
Okay.
They are rent apartments.
And.
And we have asked for one year leases.
Okay.
Okay, that's good.
(14:50):
Are there specific needs orchallenges within the LGBTQ community
that Living out aims to meet.
Sure.
There's that need forcommunity that I've addressed already.
There's the need for at leastan awareness of health issues that
may be peculiar to our or moreprevalent in our community.
(15:13):
And while we don't havemedical care, we do.
Eisenhower Medical, which is alarge hospital in the desert, called
me and asked if they could bepart of Living Out.
And so they have an officethere with a nurse who comes once
a week that can help ourpeople transition to proper care.
(15:35):
And it's different in a lot ofcommunities in something that I particularly
have chosen, which is in mostcommunities, you have independent
living, then you haveassisted, and then you have memory
care, nursing care.
And I wanted to skip theassisted living because I feel it's
(15:56):
more important for our peopleto be with our people than to pick
up and go to another propertyor even another building if they
can get those needs met intheir own apartment.
So I've urged people to bringin home care.
(16:18):
Memory care is more difficult,particularly when it's advanced.
But we have people who areliving there and have somebody there
24 7.
We have people living therewho have somebody coming in to help
them during the day.
And so it's different than alot of places in that respect as
well.
Yeah.
And let's face facts.
(16:40):
Someone from the LGBTQcommunity, if they did need some
sort of nursing care, goinginto a nursing home is like going
back into the closet.
Exactly.
Because everybody is straightand nobody recognizes the needs of
(17:03):
the LGBTQ community.
So I think what you're doingis a great service.
I don't know.
Mark, have you ever watchedthe documentary Gen Z Gen Silent?
I don't think so.
I recommend it to you and toyour listeners.
It was a documentary madeprobably 15 years ago, perhaps in
(17:25):
Boston, and it was morefocused on healthcare needs, but
it told stories, real storiesof people and the challenges that
gay people have getting healthcare delivered in a sensitive and
culturally appropriate way.
And that's the same with justplain old living.
(17:49):
Same thing.
Same thing, yeah.
I mean, my experience waswalking around was, oh, my God.
I felt so comfortable justwalking around.
It's interesting.
I was showing somebody fromNew York today who around, and I
said, one of the things that Isee is people just love it here.
I mean, I can't tell you howmuch they say, thank you.
(18:09):
I like, okay, enough.
Just go live your life.
But, I mean, they come andtell me how wonderful it is.
And I said to this fella,people really love it here.
They Feel like they're in theright place.
He said, I see it walking around.
He said, everybody is happy.
People are smiling.
It's like a vacation.
And just today, it's a simplething, but one of our residents right
(18:32):
now is undergoing radiationfor prostate cancer.
And he and his husband havebeen together for many years.
And I was sitting in theoffice looking out the window, and
the husband.
Excuse me.
Drove up, and his husband, theone getting care, got out of the
car, and the husband walkedaround to make sure he was okay,
(18:55):
and he kissed him.
That's it.
Yep.
Say no more.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
And there was nothing.
No awareness that he had to becareful of what he was doing.
Yep.
That's another important thing.
And I was talking about thisthe other day.
(19:16):
It's like, it depends whereyou are.
So would I.
Do I hold my husband's hand inpublic in middle of Phoenix?
Not so much.
Would I hold his hand in Palm Springs?
Oh, absolutely.
(19:37):
Would I?
Living out?
Sure.
Right.
I feel.
I would feel so comfortable.
And I did feel comfortablewhen I was.
When I was taking the tour.
It was like.
And then we fulfill all thestereotypes as well.
So we had, a year ago now, ourfirst super bowl party, and we were
(20:00):
joking, but when you walkedinto the lounge, we have a big tv,
and most of the people camedown to watch or came down to the
lounge to party.
And sure enough, in the frontrow were all the lesbians, and they
were paying, and they werepaying attention to the game, and
all the men were in the back,you know, just talking and eating
and drinking.
There you go.
(20:20):
And that's another thing aboutliving out.
It's difficult.
A lot of LGBT environments arevery male focused, and living out
has been extraordinarily successful.
We.
We are over more than 25%women, and that's an unusual.
And more and more women are coming.
(20:41):
So I'm really happy about that.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, there's.
To me, I think there's.
There's a lack of women incities or town or towns.
It seems like our lesbiancommunity, like, a little bit more
suburban or rural areas.
Well, I think some of it iseconomics driven as well.
(21:03):
Women traditionally have notearned the dollars that their male
counterparts have.
This is true.
And so they go to places wherethey can afford to live.
Yep.
Okay, so tell us about theamenities and services besides the
movies and the popcorn and the candy.
(21:24):
I know that you tell us abouteverything else.
The restaurant, everything.
So there's a restaurant.
And unlike most seniorcommunities, retirement communities,
the restaurant is open to the public.
And it is a real centerpiecefor the city of Palm Springs because
(21:44):
it's operated by very dearfriends of mine and my husband's
Susan Feniger and Mary SueMilliken, who people who watched
Food Network early on.
They were the two hot tamales.
They are groundbreaking chef entrepreneurs.
They are in the Smithsonian.
There's an exhibit about themnext to Julia Childs.
(22:07):
And Susan is a lesbian.
She's co chair of the LA LGBTcenter board, and she's a longtime
friend.
And I called her and she knewwhat I was doing.
And I said, will you do thiswith me?
And she had not operated inPalm Springs.
And they opened Alice B.
Which is a fabulous restaurantin Palm Springs now.
(22:30):
And a restaurant, at least inname, dedicated to women.
I wanted this to be a restaurant.
It's filled with art bylesbian artists.
It's about Alice B.
Toklas and her wife, Gertrude Stein.
There are two fabulousportraits that dominate the restaurant
(22:53):
of Gertrude and Alice done bythe fabulous LGBT painter Jo Hay.
She's a resident ofProvincetown, very well known, and
I asked Joe if she would paint these.
And it's just a wonderful restaurant.
It's difficult to get a seatthere, which is nice.
(23:14):
And so it gives my residentsan opportunity to interact with the
community outside.
It brings the community intoliving out, so that living out a
lot of again, a lot of theseplaces become insular.
But for the families coming tovisit, there's not a lot of interaction
with the broader community.
(23:35):
And I wanted to change that dynamic.
So we have this restaurant.
We have a lounge that's abeautiful lounge where breakfast
is served every morning.
It's a continental breakfast.
It's included in your monthly rent.
There's no extra charge for it.
And it's where we have ourresident meetings.
It's where we have our eventslike the super bowl party.
(23:59):
And it has beautiful seatingoutside with a fire pit looking at
the mountains.
We have a wonderful gym and astretch room that is used for stretch
classes, strength training classes.
The gym is heavily used.
There's option for if you wantto have personal training.
(24:20):
I think I was told that 20people had come to the stretch class
a couple of days ago.
We have a beautiful pool.
That Sunday, we had a soundbath out at the pool.
Do you know what a sound bath is?
It's a very California thing.
Maybe hasn't made it toArizona yet, but it's where it's
(24:42):
like they have Tibetan bellsalmost, and they have different tones.
You sit immersed in thesesounds, and it's a meditative.
It's a meditative experience.
We did it out by the pool.
I think there were 35, 40 ofour residents.
Some of them sat around thepool, some sat in the pool.
(25:04):
It was a great experience.
The pool is used for.
We have aerobic water aerobicsin there.
People do laps in there.
And there's a lot of room forsitting around, just schmoozing,
talking to people.
We have bocce ball courts,which people are now learning to
play bocce ball.
It's a fun game and easy.
(25:25):
We have a putting green whichis not used the way that I had hoped
it would be.
But you learn what peoplereally want and what they don't.
And then we have an event, Blonde.
And this lawn is out kind ofin the corner of the property with
seating.
You can seat 300 to 350 peopleout on this lawn.
(25:47):
And I built it with the ideaof inviting the community again into
living out and to have events.
And I had to see how it worked.
I think it's going to work well.
We had our first event maybe amonth ago.
Our first headliner came andJohn Waters did his show on the event
(26:09):
lawn of living out.
Whoa.
And the residents got priority seating.
They got to meet with himafterwards without all the people
from the outside community.
And I hope to do more of thatkind of thing.
It's a very special thing to.
Yeah, yeah.
We have an art room.
(26:30):
We have a reading room andcard room that again, you know, a
lot of those activities in thecard room.
Two of our residents movedfrom Jersey.
They played Mexican Train.
Nobody who had moved in playedMexican Train.
They invited a couple ofpeople to learn with them.
And now every Friday at 10:30,there have to be at least 25 people
(26:54):
playing Mexico.
That's great.
We have a book club.
They set up their own book club.
I don't know if Catherine Forrest.
Katherine Forrest is a veryfamous lesbian writer.
She was the first mystery writer.
Lesbian mystery writer.
And very significant person inour community.
(27:17):
Catherine lives there andstarted a book club.
And so there's lots ofactivities that are resident generated.
It's.
Those are the kind of.
Those are the things that wehave there to offer to people.
It sounds great.
It really does.
I mean, I remember seeing.
Is the pool heated, by the way?
(27:39):
Yes, the pool heated.
Is heated to like 83 all year round.
Okay.
So you can go in a little bitchillier weather.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I've seen the outdoor space.
That was great, too.
There's just a lot to offer asfar as the community is concerned,
(27:59):
we are also very.
People have said, are you pet friendly?
And my response is, oh, we arepet encouraging.
I love that we have a lot ofdogs, a lot of cats living there.
In fact, the city asked us tobuild a retail building on the main
street side of our property,and we built a building that is all
(28:21):
pet services.
There's a pet store.
Yeah, that's the one rightacross from you.
Right.
It's called Tail Waggers.
Yes.
And it has pet grooming, ithas pet daycare, pet overnight stay,
and connected to it is thisvery large pet park, both for our
residents and people using thepet store.
(28:42):
That's great.
So this is.
I learned many years ago, twoanimals, two dogs.
Our pet policy is they're not disruptive.
Oh.
We don't have.
We don't have weight limitations.
We don't have number limitations.
Awesome.
I learned that our community.
(29:02):
I mean, as we all know, petsare a very important part of our
community, and I did not wantto put an impediment to people coming
with their pets.
Impediment.
Yeah.
All right.
Awesome.
Yes.
We love our animals, and welove our pets, so it's very important
(29:24):
to us, especially as we growolder, too.
That's our family, so.
Sure, sure.
Absolutely.
And they take care of us.
They do.
They sure do.
Is there any specific amenitythat caters to the LGBTQ community
specifically?
(29:46):
Not specifically.
Okay.
You froze, Mark.
Oh, I did.
Don't worry.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
It's reconnecting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's nothing specificallyother than our programming.
Oh.
I will tell you.
Yes, we do have somethingspecial that I don't think is anywhere
(30:08):
else in the world.
So in the development world,if you're a developer, nobody ever
wants to invest money for art.
Okay.
On the wall.
So you end up oftentimes withposter art or multiples of prints
and things like that.
(30:28):
And I wanted to do somethingdifferent than that to make it more
like a home.
So I was inspired by whathappens in Provincetown, particularly
at some of the restaurants,and talked to people about how they
did that.
And oftentimes they would putit up and sell it for the artists.
(30:49):
So, through some friends inthe art world here in Palm Springs,
we went out to many artists,and they.
I wanted them to be lgbtq, andI wanted them to live in the Coachella
Valley.
And I said to them, hang yourart with me.
I will sell it for you, and Iwill sell it without commission.
(31:15):
And so we have probably threeto 400 pieces of art throughout the
building that are for sale,that are fabulous, that are all lgbt.
And I suspect that we probablyhave the largest collection of displayed
LGBT art in America, if not beyond.
(31:37):
I remember.
Yeah.
Museums have.
So that is very lgbt.
You asked if I have anything special.
And so what we've done isbecause I want these people who are
doing this for me, they'rehelping me.
I want to sell their art forthem to the extent I can.
So residents have bought art.
We've had a couple of artwalks in Palm Springs.
(31:59):
There's a lot of art walksover the.
During the year.
And one art walk.
We had 300 people come and wesold a lot of the art.
We're about to do another artwork.
Two more art walks before theend of June.
I remember seeing that.
That stood out to me too,walking around the facility.
(32:20):
That's awesome.
How about.
So you said you start.
You started doing social events.
Do you have.
Or are you thinking about everdoing, like, wellness programs like
yoga or yoga?
We people did not seeminterested in yoga.
Okay.
They're interested in stretchclass, which serves some of the same
(32:45):
function.
There's been discussion aboutPilates, but Pilates takes a lot
of equipment or more room.
And we've talked to Eisenhower about.
Eisenhower's madepresentations at different times
about wellness.
We speak to the customer, andwhat they've asked for is what we're
(33:06):
giving them.
Stretch and water aerobics,things like that.
Awesome.
I mean, if people ask for it,we would figure out how to do it.
I think if you talk to ourresidents, we have a resident meeting
every four to six weeks wherethe residents make suggestions, and
to the extent we can, weimplement them.
(33:28):
Not only just programmatic,but changes in the landscaping, changes
in the building, things like that.
And word out on the street is,who are these people who are landlords
but listen to their tenants, right?
Yeah.
And we do.
That's great, because thesuccess of this is dependent on their
(33:49):
being happy.
Yes.
So how does living outintegrate with the broader Palm Springs
community?
Well, as I said, I've done itwhere I've invited them in.
We have programs where ourresidents will go.
Recently, they had a programat the art museum.
There's a special exhibit thata lot of people are interested in.
(34:13):
And the Palm Springs ArtMuseum did a special presentation
for our residents.
So we try to promote a lot of interaction.
And it.
I mean, Palm Springs is a gay city.
It's.
Yesterday at the SAGE event,they announced it's the gayest city
in America.
I don't know.
Wilton Manors might quarrelwith that.
(34:33):
I'm not sure.
I think Palm Springs wins.
Yeah.
And people said to me, well,why would you do this in Palm Springs?
Because you can live in almostany environment and it'd be comfortable.
And I was asked that by thecity council when I first proposed
this, and my answer was thatloneliness and isolation is almost
(34:57):
a natural course as you get older.
And unless you're a person whois bound and determined to get out
of the house and interact,that isolation develops.
You may lose a spouse.
You just may not be interestedin getting up and going out.
(35:17):
And so even in thesecommunities that are so welcoming
and kind, your own personalsituation can be disheartening.
And so people can come livehere and not leave their apartment.
(35:37):
That's their choice.
They can leave for somethings, they can leave for other
things, but they have thatopportunity to develop friendships
and to develop new relationships.
We had somebody move in fromSan Francisco.
I think he's in one of ourpromotional things, he said, I'm
76 years old.
It's not easy to make friendsat 76.
(35:59):
He said, I've been here for acouple of months, and I have three
people who I would considerpeople that I can rely on and that
are friends of mine.
So that's why I did it.
Because if they lived in anapartment, that probably wouldn't
happen.
Yep.
So it is very important.
And that's why my whole thing.
(36:20):
I do Facebook groups.
I do my Where Do Gays Retire?
Podcast.
I'm working on another project.
So, yeah, I'm all aboutbuilding community within the LGBTQ
community.
And friends are hard to.
As you said, friends are veryhard to come by, especially those
good friends that would doanything for you.
(36:42):
I mean, a lot of people I know.
I know people who have abillion acquaintances, and that's
fine and dandy.
But when it comes down totaking you to a doctor's appointment
or driving you to the hospitalif you can't go, if you need something,
going to the grocery store,something you know, and you do for
(37:04):
them, they do for you.
That's so important as we grow older.
That's right.
And unfortunately, we, likeany other senior community, have
lost people from disease anddeath, and the community has rallied
behind their spouses ifthere's a spouse involved.
(37:24):
People are not.
They don't feel alone if theydon't want to feel alone.
Very important.
Very important.
And remind me to.
I'll talk to you after theshow about something.
So one of the amenities thatyou used to have.
Oops.
(37:45):
I just.
Where did I go?
One of the amenities that Iused to have that you used to have,
was it Ubers.
Do you still do that?
Oh, yes, we still do that.
Okay.
We have a Lyft program whereif you need a ride somewhere, we
provide a lift.
Okay, I like that.
Yes.
So thank you for reminding that.
(38:06):
Yep.
So that my marketing directoris going to be very unhappy with
me.
I remember that I said, Ithink they provide Uber or Lyft or
something where people, ifthey didn't have a vehicle, they
can get around and if theywanted to go get a couple of cocktails,
they could just take a lift.
(38:26):
Right?
That's right.
And get a lift back.
Right.
We can arrange for that.
That's great.
And that's included in the rents?
Yes.
Awesome.
Okay, so let's see.
General.
What are the general costs ofliving and living out?
There are different pricingtiers depending upon what you're
(38:48):
looking for.
Correct.
Like what type?
Yes, the pricing.
The pricing varies from theone or two bedroom, plus within the
two bedroom, the size of thetwo bedroom.
And then the pricing varieswith the floors.
The first floor is the mostexpensive because all of those apartments
(39:10):
have private yards and a lotof people with pets in particular
want to be there in their bigprivate yards.
The top floor is then thesecond most, and then the middle
floor.
And then we have threedifferent views.
One looks straight at MountSan Jacinto, which is that big imposing
(39:33):
mountain that dominates Palm Springs.
And then there's a viewtowards the San Gorgonios, which
is where the snow builds up inthe winter.
Right now it's snow covered.
And then there's another.
And I'm going to forget thename of the mountain range, but it
looks at the parking lot,which is the least desirable, we
(39:54):
thought, but it has beautifulmountain views above the parking
lot.
And so what we're doing isputting in shades.
We have shades in the units,but we're going to change the shades
that people would like to gofrom the bottom up so they can cut
out.
The car view, cut out theparking lot.
Yeah.
And look at the mountains.
(40:14):
And the rents go generallyfrom 4,500 to 8,000 for the most
expensive unit, 8,200.
That includes free breakfast.
It includes all utilities,which in Palm Springs are quite expensive,
particularly in the summer.
Air conditioning.
Yes.
It includes weekly housekeeping.
(40:36):
It includes every six monthsof deep housekeeping, deep cleaning.
It includes the lift program.
If you take off the cost ofall of those things that you would
incur elsewhere, it's a Very,in today's world, a very reasonable
price that includes.
The pool and the gym and everything.
Oh, sure.
(40:56):
All that stuff includes amenities.
Yeah, yeah.
If you wanted privatetraining, you would pay for that
yourself.
Yeah.
If you want a haircut, it'snot an issue for you and me, but
we have a salon and you wouldpay for that.
If you want a manicure, youwould pay for that.
But most everything isincluded, so your expenses are really
(41:17):
controlled.
And it's interesting becausewe didn't know how the rental program
would work, whether peoplewould be receptive to it, because
in America there's so muchfocus on building equity through
home ownership.
Right.
It's kind of, kind of theAmerican dream.
And people, when they firstthink about this, are struggling.
(41:38):
Well, I'm not going to earnany equity.
I'm just going to be spending money.
And I said to some people,well, what are you going to do with
that equity?
What are you going to leave itto your children you're going to
leave?
Or to your nephews who maybewon't even talk to you?
Or your dog.
Yeah, or your dog.
So live your life and you needto be careful and make sure that
(42:00):
you have enough money.
Have enough money.
But you know, this idea ofhomeownership is, as you get older,
it's, it's not the rightthought process in my mind.
What was your deciding factorinstead of going the condo route
that you went the rental route?
Deciding factor was cost of construction.
(42:24):
California is very litigious.
Homeowners associationsinevitably sue the developer, the
contractor, the architect forlots of things.
If they think there's too muchnoise, they sue.
And so we learned that thecost of construction because all
(42:46):
the people involved build thatin to their cost in case something
happens.
The cost is much moreexpensive, it's much more prohibitive,
and it's much more difficultto finance condominium development
in California.
California is very pro buyerin the condo world, where many states
(43:10):
are not.
So you are not allowed to makenon refundable a deposit on a condominium
until a year before you open.
And yet as a developer, you'reborrowing money two years before
and the banks are saying,well, how do we know that these are
going to sell and you can'tshow them non refundable deposits.
(43:34):
So it became very difficult.
A lot of the banks reallyloved the concept.
They wanted to be on theground floor with this new idea,
but many of them were notwilling to take that risk.
So we switched to rental.
And in a way, I want thedeciding factor for me was that I
(43:54):
get to control it.
And what I mean by that is, ina homeowners association, you don't
know who's going to take overthe homeowners association.
The homeowners.
Yeah.
You have to.
And they may want this to beless gay.
They may want this.
They may want this to besomething very different.
(44:18):
Then I conceived of it.
Whereas in a rental, Paul andI still own it and we control.
And I wanted that for ourcommunity because I don't want them
to be sold out.
That's a great point, becauseI always ask somebody that had, like,
(44:42):
an LGBTQ community for sale,how do you control who you sell to?
It's not.
If someone decides to selltheir unit, you can tell them that
they can't sell to a straight person.
So you.
You lose that.
(45:02):
That difference of beingsolely lgbtq.
So where, in your case, it'syour business?
Well, I can't discriminate.
I can't discriminate.
Right.
Nor are we interested in discriminating.
We have straight people living there.
But as I say to people who askme that question, I say straight
(45:26):
people have to be comfortablein our culture, and if they're not
going to be happy there.
My mother lived in thiswonderful place outside of Boston.
It was operated by HebrewSenior Life, and they didn't discriminate.
But it was mostly Jews wholive there.
Right.
(45:47):
And the same with us.
People come and they know thatwe are an LGBT focused.
And if they're comfortablewith it, I welcome them with open
arms.
Sure.
If they're.
If they know up front, and I'msure they do, because first of all,
you're in Palm Springs.
That's one hint.
Number two, you're in acommunity that's known to be solely
(46:12):
LGBTQ or lgbtq.
And there's a big flag hangingout there.
Right?
There's a big flag hanging out there.
And even my flower.
My pots.
Plant pots as you come intothe property.
These probably weren't therethe last time you were there, Mark,
but they're beautiful mosaicpots in the pride colors and, you
(46:35):
know, it's all about us.
Yep.
All about.
I love it.
I love it.
That's great.
Yeah.
I mean, that's.
That seems like, in itself,that would make the property so appealing
just to be amongst yourself inan LGBTQ community.
(46:55):
It does not.
You can't find that anywhere else.
Right?
That's right.
You may have a community, asyou said, Wilton Manners is predominantly
gay or lgbtq.
They may have people justliving together.
And the same thing in PalmSprings, but there's no.
There's no community withinPalm Springs.
(47:18):
I've heard some people,though, say, let me ask you this
question.
I've heard some people say,well, it's Palm Springs.
Everyone's gay.
What's the difference?
And what do you think?
How do you answer that?
Again, the difference is isolation.
As you get older, it's anatural fact.
(47:39):
I don't know anybody whohasn't gotten older and had some
sense of isolation compared towhat their lives had been before.
Yep.
They may not have.
They may have limitedmobility, so they can't go out to
the bars like they used to.
It's true, we are a gay city,but it's very different to have community
(48:03):
and to have it right at your doorstep.
Yep, it sure is.
Sure is.
How does Living out supportand participate in vibrant local
LGBTQ culture?
Well, we're in the PrideParade, and our residents walk and
ride in the Pride Parade.
(48:25):
Every year since we've beenhere, we've been in the Pride Parade.
We're like.
Living out has become thenatural place for many LGBT organizations
to have their gatherings.
HRC recently had.
Now, these are fundraisingevents, but they reach out to the
(48:47):
broader community.
HRC asked if they could havetheir event there.
The center has had events there.
It's a natural spot forgathering in our community.
John Waters.
I mean, John Waters was acitywide event.
I mean, that.
That's how we participate.
(49:09):
You're in a great spot, too.
Yes, it's a great location.
We're very lucky.
We're very lucky with that location.
Could actually walk todifferent places.
Sure.
You can walk to downtown.
It's a little bit of a walk.
Or you can walk to the Arenas District.
A funny story.
My business partner, who'sstraight, when we were putting together
the package to raise themoney, you know, you always put a
(49:31):
series of maps.
You start with, like, a map ofthe US and then narrow down to Palm
Springs.
And then we had our final mapof Palm Springs, and we had outlined
the Arenas District.
Well, Paul didn't know theArenas District, and he said, how
come you didn't show downtown?
He said, no, it's the ArenasDistrict that people go to.
(49:53):
He didn't know what that was,but we are part of that community.
Yeah.
That's great.
I had.
Yeah.
I mean, I had one of ourlittle where to Gays retire get togethers
at quads.
Yeah.
At the Arenas District.
We recently.
You're familiar with Brand G,the cruise lines.
(50:16):
Yeah.
They have a large contingentof customers who have been on their
cruises who live in Palm Springs.
And they, they came to Livingout and had their get together with
their customers at Living Out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're kind of naturally aplace where the community thinks
(50:37):
about now.
That's wonderful.
That's wonderful.
And how does the year roundsunny weather in Palm Springs enhance
the experience for residents?
Well, it's sunny, pleasant.
How about summertime?
Nobody can go out.
Summertime.
Summer.
Summertime is hot.
(50:58):
Phoenix is hot.
There are a lot of hot places.
But you learn to kind ofstructure your day around the heat.
You get up in the morning,early in the morning.
Exactly.
You stay inside or you go geton a lift and go to a air conditioned
restaurant.
You blast your airconditioning because I'm paying for
(51:20):
it.
And then in the evening whenit cools down, you go down and have
a drink.
You go sit in the fire pit andwatch the mountain as the sun setting.
It's livable.
I mean, we have people who dogo to different places in the summer.
I was going to ask you, do youfind that even though they're yearly
(51:40):
rentals that you havesnowbirds that they leave Palm Spring,
they leave living out?
Yes.
Yes.
Generally for not more thanthree months.
Yeah.
Most people are here for ninemonths at a time at least.
But do you have, do you have alot of people that remain?
Yes, in the summer.
(52:01):
I would say the bulk of theresidents remain in the summer.
That's important too, becauseyou don't want to be.
Well, first of all, you'rerenting a place for a year.
It's expensive to go somewhereelse for three months unless you
own it.
So.
Yeah, I was always curiousabout that through people.
And we have, we've designedsome opportunities.
(52:22):
I was telling this fellow Iwas touring today we have a program
called the Wanderlust programwhere we invite someone to rent for
one to three months.
The rents are significantlyhigher than they would be for a one
year lease.
But they can come and live ina furnished unit and see if they
(52:45):
like it.
And some people have done thatin the summer, some people have done
that in the winter.
And we're quite convinced thatit's a good thing for me as the owner
because most of the people whohave done this Wanderlust program
have then gone on to signleases because it's difficult to
(53:07):
come to this place and not be happy.
Yeah.
It's like everybody has smileson their face when they're walking
around the halls, so.
Right.
Yeah.
What's not to be happy?
Yeah.
A little popcorn and candywith A movie.
I was in the.
I was in the card room librarytoday with this person.
(53:28):
I was touring and a couple ofour residents were getting ready
for book club.
And they said, are you goingto move in?
And he said, well, I'm just looking.
And they said, oh, trust me.
You want to live here?
Yeah.
Oh, my question is, can youwalk to Sherman's?
Yes.
I'm a New Yorker.
(53:48):
I'm like, I love Sherman.
I do too.
A New York Jew.
Yeah.
So Sherman's, although thelast corned beef.
Sandwich I had was a littlefatty, was.
It was not happy.
Yeah, No, I go to Sherman'spretty frequently and people can
walk there, but most peopletake the lift.
Yeah, it's one of my favoritebreakfast places.
(54:08):
Okay.
So I think we were talkingabout Sherman's and all those good
restaurants and Alice B's.
I'm going to Billy Reed's tomorrow.
Oh, are you?
Yeah.
What's that?
Oh, you don't know Billy Reed's?
It's a coffee shop down on thenorth end.
It's been here since the 70s.
It's a wonderful coffee shop.
(54:29):
I have to hang out with you alittle bit more.
My life is built around anyeating, so.
Mine too.
You're a man after my heart.
I love it.
All right, so let's talk alittle bit.
Oh, again, I wanted to mentionto our audience the price of these
(54:53):
units.
They do include all of utilities.
So just be aware that somehomes in Palm Springs people have
over $1,000 electric billduring the summer months at least.
So it's important to know thatit's included in your rent.
(55:15):
So keep that in mind.
All right, so let's talk alittle bit about safety and well
being.
What measures are in place toensure safety and security at living
out?
Well, we have a front deskthat's attended 24 7.
(55:36):
We have.
It's a gated community.
Although the gates are openwhen the restaurant's open, we have
cameras all around the building.
If we have special events likethe Sage event, we have additional
security people there.
We're very heightenedly awareof safety and security.
(56:00):
The building as it relates tofire and things like that is obviously
up to speed.
It's a new building.
The fire department is veryhappy with whatever we do there.
But I will say that there aresome residents who feel like if people
can come in, there's a chancethat somebody could stay and cause
(56:22):
trouble.
And I've hesitated becauseparticularly in this environment
that we're in now, I don'twant this to become an Armed camp.
Nor do most of the people.
There are some people who aremore worried than others.
But, you know, they know thatwe are very attuned.
They know that the policedepartment is very connected to us.
(56:45):
At this sage event yesterday,the chief of police was there.
He's very supportive of theliving out community.
And we've never had an issue,and we've been opened a year and
a half now.
So those are the type of measures.
You can't get into theelevators without a key fob.
(57:06):
All of the amenities that areopen to the residents only are fobbed.
Access from the outside is fobbed.
So you have to be connected toliving out to have access to living
out.
Right.
So everything.
All the gym, the pool, all thepools on the outside.
(57:28):
Yeah, but is it separate the pool?
Do you have to go through a gate?
Yeah, there's a gate there.
Yeah, that's fob.
Yeah.
Okay.
But it's a very secure property.
More secure than anything elsein Palm Springs that I'm aware of.
And, yeah, as you mentioned,the Palm Springs police is on it
(57:52):
and very supportive.
Right.
To the Palm Springs community,as is the fire department.
The fire department, yes.
Okay.
So that makes me feel better.
So you have concierge.
Everything is locked up.
No vandalism.
Have you ever experienced vandalism?
(58:14):
No.
Okay, sounds good to me.
Let's see future expansions.
Do you have any plans on doinganything else as far as living out
is concerned or anything?
Well, I would like to.
I would like to.
(58:34):
I've been approached byseveral developers about doing things
in potentially communitieswhere they're active.
Development is a long,difficult process, and I'm no longer
young.
And so I think, for me,development is not in the future,
(58:56):
but management and operationare in the future.
And I know that this can bedone in many locations in the United
States, although my thoughtprocess is different than others
in terms of what it takes tobe successful.
(59:16):
There was an attempt to do onein Santa Fe years ago, and it did
not succeed.
Even though Santa Fe is knownas a very welcoming, friendly, open
community, in my mind, it isnot a gay community.
It is not.
(59:36):
There's no central gatheringof the community.
Palm Springs, the whole thingis a central gathering.
Okay, pretty much, yeah.
But there are places likeWilton Manors, Fort Lauderdale, and
there's a significant.
There's a LGBT center there.
There's lots of communityinvolvement in Dallas.
(01:00:00):
I forget the name of the community.
Is it Oaklawn or.
It's a very vibrant,significant LGBT community in those
kind.
In Atlanta in Midtown.
It's an LGBT community.
And so in my mind, that'swhere you have to be.
You don't want to be out inthe suburbs of Atlanta.
(01:00:21):
As a result, most of thefuture development will probably
be higher up because these areurban environments, and so it will
be different.
But Palm Springs is a resortcommunity, whereas Dallas is not
a resort community.
I know that this will succeed.
(01:00:41):
I know this will succeed.
Living out is the subject of acase study by NYU School of Business.
It hasn't been published yet,but it's going to be published probably
in the next year or so.
And it's focused on financingbecause that's, to be honest, the
most difficult thing is to getfinancing for a project of this nature.
(01:01:04):
And so I think that will helppeople understand that it's achievable
and what it takes.
And nyu.
Sam Chandon, who's in chargeof this part of nyu, the real estate
branch of NYU School ofBusiness, was out and spent a lot
of time talking about thethings that we had done to raise
(01:01:25):
money for this project to getit developed.
And I think over.
Everybody's waiting to makesure that I succeed.
And once I succeed, and I'm very.
And I consider success 85, 90%occupancy, and we're at 75%.
I think once I succeed, you'llsee other people coming to me and
(01:01:50):
saying, help me do this elsewhere.
That's great.
I wish they would do one herein Phoenix.
Phoenix is on my list.
But then again, I'll tell youafter that, I'm pretty sure that
we're moving.
We're on the road again.
Really?
I'll tell you after.
(01:02:12):
But, you know, there's a lotof places.
San Diego would be a wonderfulplace to have living out.
Long beach would be a greatplace to have a living out.
Los Angeles would be a greatplace to have a living out.
There's so many places whereour community, I mean, there's such
a need.
People have said to me, well,are you worried that somebody will
(01:02:33):
come in and compete with youin another place?
And I said, no, we need it.
I'm never going to be able tosatisfy the demand.
When you talked aboutdevelopment, and that's one of the
hardest parts, I rememberliving out took a long time to get
developed, right?
Yes.
(01:02:53):
I remember it being an emptylot for a long time with just a sign
that it was there.
And then I came back and I waslike, they're building.
And it was like, how long didthat take?
It took about from beginningto end about five years now.
Part of that was because weshifted from condominium to rental
(01:03:14):
to rental.
Yeah.
Part of it was the need to getfinancing and having to go.
That's a long process to go through.
Part of it was we woulddelayed in construction.
Our contractor was delayedseven months.
Part of it was Covid.
So I would think that normallyit could be a three month process.
(01:03:36):
The other thing that it could be.
It doesn't have to be three year.
Three year.
Three year.
I'm sorry.
It doesn't have to be ground up.
I don't know how much peopleknow about commercial real estate,
but there's been a strong moveto adaptive reuse of buildings.
(01:03:56):
Office buildings that nolonger can fill up are becoming hotels,
becoming residences.
And so I think around thecountry there are opportunities to
buy an existing building.
And once you have thestructure, yes, it takes time to
gut the thing and rebuild iton the inside, but it's a very much
(01:04:18):
simpler process.
And there's getting throughthe city.
I mean, the city was wonderfulwith us.
Wonderful.
But it's still a process andyou have to honor that process.
And people in the city need tohave input.
Yep, got it.
So what has been the mostfulfilling or surprising part of
(01:04:43):
you leading this project?
So I have a dear friend whoserved on the board of the center
with me.
She now lives in CentralCalifornia, up near Pismo Beach.
And she wrote to me and shesaid, have you had that moment where
you realize what you've created?
(01:05:04):
And I said, no, I haven'treally had it yet.
This was about a year ago.
I said, I'm still, like fortumult, I'm still.
And she said, well, you'regoing to have it at a moment that
you have no idea for that it'sgoing to hit you.
And I was in the lounge atbreakfast and there had to be maybe
(01:05:26):
40 people sitting, having breakfast.
And then some people came inand I had no idea who they were because
I hadn't met them yet.
Most people know me.
And then some other peoplecame in and I sat there and Mark,
for the first time I weptbecause I realized all these people
(01:05:47):
are coming because of you.
Well, not because of me, butbecause what I've created.
Right.
Because what I created andthat I've met the need for our community.
And that was.
It was a very significantmoment for me.
You're making me cry now.
(01:06:13):
That's great.
Yeah, it's.
Yeah.
You just.
Well, yeah, one day you justsit there and say, wow, look what
I've done.
Yeah.
It's a big accomplishment.
Yeah.
Whereas a year ago, when wefirst were opening and I was saying,
look what I've done.
Oh, what have I done?
(01:06:36):
Yes.
Things will always work out inthe end.
Yes.
So any.
Any words of wisdom to ourLGBTQ community that's looking to
make community?
Yeah.
First look at living out.
Okay.
It's not as difficult atransition as one might think, and
(01:07:00):
it's a very fulfilling transition.
And then find a place wherepeople will support you if you need
to retire and need to do itsomewhere near where you live, and
there's not a lot of opportunities.
Do some research.
Sage, in which I'm on theboard, has a program where called
(01:07:24):
Sage Cares, and they contractwith mainstream retirement communities,
and they go in and teach themabout the specific needs of LGBT
people, both health wise,emotion wise, and they teach them
how to be responsive to ourpeople and give them a full life,
(01:07:51):
and they are certified.
So I would say look for a SAGEcertification that will give you
greater comfort that you willbe welcomed in that community.
But come to Palm Springs.
It's the gayest city in America.
You belong here.
(01:08:12):
It is.
It's one of my favorite places.
It really is.
I just spent some time therenext door in Cathedral City, Rancho
Mirage.
Have wonderful friends fromthere, met wonderful people, lived
with them for three months,and had a bowl.
So I will be back.
(01:08:34):
Right, Right.
It's a wonderful place.
All right, Lauren, thank youso much.
Thank you for being on the podcast.
I really appreciate learningabout living Out.
For me, it's.
I knew what you were exactlytalking about because I've been there,
and it makes a difference.
So for all of the listenersand people out there, go take a tour.
(01:08:59):
While you're in Palm Springs,go to Living Out.
Take a tour, see what you'remissing, and then you'll love it.
Great.
Thanks again, Lauren.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
See you.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to theWhere Do Gays Retire?
(01:09:21):
Podcast.
If you enjoyed today'sepisode, please subscribe to our
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Welcome to the Where Do Gays Retire?
Podcast where we help you inthe LGBTQ community find a safe and
affordable retirement place.
Join Mark Goldstein as heinterviews others who live in gay
friendly places around the globe.
Learn about the climate, costof living, health care, crime and
safety, and more.
(00:22):
Now here's your host, Mark Goldstein.
Have you ever wondered whatit's like to live in a 55 plus LGBT
community?
Well, stay tuned and find out.
Today we have our specialguest, Lauren Ostro, and I'll tell
(00:46):
you a little bit about Lauren.
Lauren is the driving forcebehind Living Out.
Lauren Ostro has an extensivebackground in large project development
and management.
Mr.
Ostrow and his companies havesuccessfully acquired, developed
and managed properties thatinclude casinos, hotels, shopping
(01:06):
centers, restaurants,condominiums, and other major commercial
real estate endeavors.
He serves as Chief ExecutiveOfficer and President of Living out
in Palm Springs.
Lauren holds a BA Degree fromthe University of Rochester, graduating
magna cum Laude, and an MBA inFinance and Accounting from the University
(01:30):
of Rochester, and a JD Degreefrom Stanford Law School.
Lauren is also a well knownmember of the LGBTQ community, both
as an active participant inLGBTQ causes and as a generous philanthropist.
Lauren has served on the Boardof Directors of the Los Angeles LGBT
(01:52):
center, the National Gay andLesbian Task Force, and Congregation
Cole Ami.
Lauren and his businesspartner Paul has been partners for
more than 40 years.
I know I screwed that one up.
(02:12):
Alanis.
He and his husband for morethan 430 years, Brian Newkirk, reside
in Palm Springs in Provincetown.
I even asked you the questionbefore and I still screwed it up.
And I'm now on the board of sage.
Oh, wow, okay, good Sage.
(02:34):
The New York sage, TheNational Sage or the.
No, there's only one sage.
It's the National Sage.
Oh, okay.
All right, that's good to know.
They used to be SAGEaffiliates, but that concept is not
there any longer.
So it's all one organization.
One organization.
Gotcha.
(02:54):
Okay, Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for coming.
Appreciate it.
Let's jump right in.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself other than what I screwed
up on your bio and your background.
Well, as you mentioned, I'm adeveloper and an operator of both
(03:17):
casinos and hotels overprobably 40 years.
And I've also been involvedfor over 30, 30 years now in LGBT
national organizations.
And from that I got the notionI'm answering a question maybe that
(03:41):
you're going to ask me later.
But I have learned over allthose years that there was going
to be a need for LGBT seniors,because just like any Other demographic.
Our community was going to age.
And I knew from myexperiences, particularly with the
(04:04):
center, the task force, andnow with sage, that there were very
few opportunities for, inparticular, market rate housing.
There have been more and moreopportunities for affordable housing,
typically done by charitable organizations.
(04:25):
The LA center has twoaffordable housing projects.
SAGE operates two affordablehousing projects.
Philadelphia has one.
The Resource center in Dallasjust opened their affordable housing
project.
The center in Wilton Manorsjust opened an affordable housing
project.
But that is a very differentanimal than market rate housing.
(04:50):
And for people who don'tqualify for affordable housing, because
you have to qualify with lowerincome levels were no opportunities.
And I had learned watchingvideos and Testaments, that people
were moving into environmentsthat were not particularly friendly
(05:11):
to them because they didn'thave an option.
They were getting older.
They needed either assistanceor they needed to be in a more communal
space.
And so they were going tomainstream communities where possibly
the staff or possibly theresidents did not accept them.
(05:35):
And so you hear stories ofpeople moving into these communities
and hiding their photographsbecause the photographs would show
somebody of the same genderwith them.
And, I mean, I just thinkthat's an anathema and something
that I did not want to accept.
So I thought long, long timeago that there would need to be housing
(06:00):
that would be for our people.
And so Paul and I, my partner,Paul Alanis and I have worked together
since 1976.
It's a very unusualpartnership to last that long.
He's a straight guy.
We sold our last Casino in2019, and Paul, who's known me all
those years, said, come on,Lauren, you've been talking about
(06:22):
doing this forever.
Let's go do it together.
So we built Living out and wecreated this community that is really
unique, I think, in the US andprobably in the world as a space
for LGBT people and its alliesand their allies.
(06:46):
But that focuses on ourcommunity, focuses on our culture,
and celebrates that as opposedto being a place where LGBT people
can live and be accepted.
But that whole culturalelement is really.
Missing, existing instead ofliving exactly their authentic selves.
(07:12):
Let me give you a perfect example.
My husband and I, we used tolive in Florida.
We lived there for four years.
So while we were there, wealways liked to look at different
places to live.
So not far from our home,there was another 55 plus community.
It happened to be onValentine's Day.
(07:33):
So we walked into the salesarea and looked around and wanted
to see some models.
So when we checked in thiswith this woman, and she welcomed
us and said, hi, gentlemen.
Oh, are you here to buy yourwives a Valentine's Day gift?
And we looked at each otherlike, oh, my God.
(07:55):
How could you even saysomething like that?
Like, you shouldn't even besaying that.
That's privilege.
We know that's privilege.
And so I was like, oh, my God.
And perfect example.
Yes, we do need communitieswhere we can be our authentic selves.
(08:18):
So thank you.
So just for an example,yesterday in Palm Springs, we have
an annual Sage and Friendsgathering, and it's a fundraiser
for Sage.
And we had it at Living Out.
It was the natural place tohave it.
We had it out on the lawn, oneof our lawns with 250 people.
(08:40):
And it was a celebration ofour community.
No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
That's great.
That's great to hear.
I'm sorry I missed it.
I was actually.
We came back to Phoenix twoweeks ago and we were in Cathedral
City.
We were living in CathedralCity for three months.
(09:01):
And did you come to see Livingout at all?
We didn't this time, but wewere there before.
I've seen it.
Oh, you've been there?
I've been there.
Okay.
I've been on a tour.
And that's.
Yep.
So I really liked it.
So.
Yeah.
But I have seen it.
Yes.
It's a really beautiful building.
(09:23):
It's a beautiful residential spaces.
It's a beautiful community and environment.
Yes, it is.
So what was.
So the inspiration was.
Because nothing like this everexisted before.
Correct, Right.
And I had seen the LA centeryears ago grappling with how we were
(09:48):
going to take care of our seniors.
That was an issue from a longtime ago.
The task force had the TaskForce Institute that did research
papers.
And I remember back in theearly 2000s reading about a paper
about the demographics of LGBTseniors, and it just was so obvious
(10:10):
to me that we needed to haveour own spaces.
So for our listeners that maynot be familiar with Living out,
what makes it different thanany other 55 or LGBTQ friendly communities?
What makes it different than those?
(10:32):
Well, it's very different fromany other 55 and older community,
mainstream community, verydifferent, for a variety of reasons.
One, if you go to 55 and oldercommunities, you will still see,
and my mother was in one foryears, that the main source of socialization
(10:54):
remains the children and the family.
That is not the case at Livingout because many of our residents
don't have children.
They don't have families thatthey are in touch with, and so their
source of socialization iseach other.
(11:17):
And that yields very different results.
In a mainstream community,people may hang out together, but
when push comes to shove,they're with their kids.
In our community, it'scommunity people really turn to each
other.
They turn to each other foremotional support.
(11:38):
They turn to each other intimes of fear, which we have now.
They turn to each other forall sorts of reasons.
So it's very different whenyou walk into living out, you see
how the people interact asfriends, not as fellow residents.
(12:01):
The second thing that'sdifferent is we're all about the
gay.
I mean, our.
We have programs like others do.
We have an art room and peopledo art projects.
Some of our residents arepainters and they paint in the art
room.
We have movies when some ofthem are mainstream movies.
We show a movie every day inthis beautiful theater.
(12:24):
With popcorn.
With popcorn.
With popcorn and candy.
I took some and I saw that inthe inventory and.
But a lot of our movies areabout our community or speak to our
community.
When you.
(12:44):
We built the theater very muchlike a traditional theater, unlike
Most of these 55, where youwalk in and the theater is right
there.
We have a ramp going down intothe theater, and along that ramp
are movie posters.
And my business partner walkedin and said, I don't know most of
(13:05):
these movies because they weremovies that are iconic in the LGBT
world and that are notnecessarily iconic in the mainstream
world.
He knew west side Story.
I give him credit.
I gave him credit.
But Desert Hearts is there.
(13:25):
Go Fish is there.
I don't even know how topronounce it.
E2 Cambie.
There's a poster there.
It's about our people.
And that's what this is about.
This is about our people.
So it's very different in that respect.
It's so different.
And even other LGBTcommunities are.
(13:46):
While there's a celebration ofour culture and our world, it's different
in that it is very spacious, luxurious.
It's very comfortable.
Our units, for instance, in anaffordable housing project, typically
(14:08):
the units, the apartments aremaybe 4 or 500 square feet.
Typically in most market ratesenior communities, the average one
bedroom is 6 to 700 square feet.
Our one bedrooms are 1100square feet.
Nice size.
So it's very different.
(14:28):
And our two bedrooms are1400-1800 square feet.
So it's very different in that respect.
And I just want to tell theaudience, these are rental apartments.
That's correct.
Okay.
They are rent apartments.
And.
And we have asked for one year leases.
Okay.
Okay, that's good.
(14:50):
Are there specific needs orchallenges within the LGBTQ community
that Living out aims to meet.
Sure.
There's that need forcommunity that I've addressed already.
There's the need for at leastan awareness of health issues that
may be peculiar to our or moreprevalent in our community.
(15:13):
And while we don't havemedical care, we do.
Eisenhower Medical, which is alarge hospital in the desert, called
me and asked if they could bepart of Living Out.
And so they have an officethere with a nurse who comes once
a week that can help ourpeople transition to proper care.
(15:35):
And it's different in a lot ofcommunities in something that I particularly
have chosen, which is in mostcommunities, you have independent
living, then you haveassisted, and then you have memory
care, nursing care.
And I wanted to skip theassisted living because I feel it's
(15:56):
more important for our peopleto be with our people than to pick
up and go to another propertyor even another building if they
can get those needs met intheir own apartment.
So I've urged people to bringin home care.
(16:18):
Memory care is more difficult,particularly when it's advanced.
But we have people who areliving there and have somebody there
24 7.
We have people living therewho have somebody coming in to help
them during the day.
And so it's different than alot of places in that respect as
well.
Yeah.
And let's face facts.
(16:40):
Someone from the LGBTQcommunity, if they did need some
sort of nursing care, goinginto a nursing home is like going
back into the closet.
Exactly.
Because everybody is straightand nobody recognizes the needs of
(17:03):
the LGBTQ community.
So I think what you're doingis a great service.
I don't know.
Mark, have you ever watchedthe documentary Gen Z Gen Silent?
I don't think so.
I recommend it to you and toyour listeners.
It was a documentary madeprobably 15 years ago, perhaps in
(17:25):
Boston, and it was morefocused on healthcare needs, but
it told stories, real storiesof people and the challenges that
gay people have getting healthcare delivered in a sensitive and
culturally appropriate way.
And that's the same with justplain old living.
(17:49):
Same thing.
Same thing, yeah.
I mean, my experience waswalking around was, oh, my God.
I felt so comfortable justwalking around.
It's interesting.
I was showing somebody fromNew York today who around, and I
said, one of the things that Isee is people just love it here.
I mean, I can't tell you howmuch they say, thank you.
(18:09):
I like, okay, enough.
Just go live your life.
But, I mean, they come andtell me how wonderful it is.
And I said to this fella,people really love it here.
They Feel like they're in theright place.
He said, I see it walking around.
He said, everybody is happy.
People are smiling.
It's like a vacation.
And just today, it's a simplething, but one of our residents right
(18:32):
now is undergoing radiationfor prostate cancer.
And he and his husband havebeen together for many years.
And I was sitting in theoffice looking out the window, and
the husband.
Excuse me.
Drove up, and his husband, theone getting care, got out of the
car, and the husband walkedaround to make sure he was okay,
(18:55):
and he kissed him.
That's it.
Yep.
Say no more.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
And there was nothing.
No awareness that he had to becareful of what he was doing.
Yep.
That's another important thing.
And I was talking about thisthe other day.
(19:16):
It's like, it depends whereyou are.
So would I.
Do I hold my husband's hand inpublic in middle of Phoenix?
Not so much.
Would I hold his hand in Palm Springs?
Oh, absolutely.
(19:37):
Would I?
Living out?
Sure.
Right.
I feel.
I would feel so comfortable.
And I did feel comfortablewhen I was.
When I was taking the tour.
It was like.
And then we fulfill all thestereotypes as well.
So we had, a year ago now, ourfirst super bowl party, and we were
(20:00):
joking, but when you walkedinto the lounge, we have a big tv,
and most of the people camedown to watch or came down to the
lounge to party.
And sure enough, in the frontrow were all the lesbians, and they
were paying, and they werepaying attention to the game, and
all the men were in the back,you know, just talking and eating
and drinking.
There you go.
(20:20):
And that's another thing aboutliving out.
It's difficult.
A lot of LGBT environments arevery male focused, and living out
has been extraordinarily successful.
We.
We are over more than 25%women, and that's an unusual.
And more and more women are coming.
(20:41):
So I'm really happy about that.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, there's.
To me, I think there's.
There's a lack of women incities or town or towns.
It seems like our lesbiancommunity, like, a little bit more
suburban or rural areas.
Well, I think some of it iseconomics driven as well.
(21:03):
Women traditionally have notearned the dollars that their male
counterparts have.
This is true.
And so they go to places wherethey can afford to live.
Yep.
Okay, so tell us about theamenities and services besides the
movies and the popcorn and the candy.
(21:24):
I know that you tell us abouteverything else.
The restaurant, everything.
So there's a restaurant.
And unlike most seniorcommunities, retirement communities,
the restaurant is open to the public.
And it is a real centerpiecefor the city of Palm Springs because
(21:44):
it's operated by very dearfriends of mine and my husband's
Susan Feniger and Mary SueMilliken, who people who watched
Food Network early on.
They were the two hot tamales.
They are groundbreaking chef entrepreneurs.
They are in the Smithsonian.
There's an exhibit about themnext to Julia Childs.
(22:07):
And Susan is a lesbian.
She's co chair of the LA LGBTcenter board, and she's a longtime
friend.
And I called her and she knewwhat I was doing.
And I said, will you do thiswith me?
And she had not operated inPalm Springs.
And they opened Alice B.
Which is a fabulous restaurantin Palm Springs now.
(22:30):
And a restaurant, at least inname, dedicated to women.
I wanted this to be a restaurant.
It's filled with art bylesbian artists.
It's about Alice B.
Toklas and her wife, Gertrude Stein.
There are two fabulousportraits that dominate the restaurant
(22:53):
of Gertrude and Alice done bythe fabulous LGBT painter Jo Hay.
She's a resident ofProvincetown, very well known, and
I asked Joe if she would paint these.
And it's just a wonderful restaurant.
It's difficult to get a seatthere, which is nice.
(23:14):
And so it gives my residentsan opportunity to interact with the
community outside.
It brings the community intoliving out, so that living out a
lot of again, a lot of theseplaces become insular.
But for the families coming tovisit, there's not a lot of interaction
with the broader community.
(23:35):
And I wanted to change that dynamic.
So we have this restaurant.
We have a lounge that's abeautiful lounge where breakfast
is served every morning.
It's a continental breakfast.
It's included in your monthly rent.
There's no extra charge for it.
And it's where we have ourresident meetings.
It's where we have our eventslike the super bowl party.
(23:59):
And it has beautiful seatingoutside with a fire pit looking at
the mountains.
We have a wonderful gym and astretch room that is used for stretch
classes, strength training classes.
The gym is heavily used.
There's option for if you wantto have personal training.
(24:20):
I think I was told that 20people had come to the stretch class
a couple of days ago.
We have a beautiful pool.
That Sunday, we had a soundbath out at the pool.
Do you know what a sound bath is?
It's a very California thing.
Maybe hasn't made it toArizona yet, but it's where it's
(24:42):
like they have Tibetan bellsalmost, and they have different tones.
You sit immersed in thesesounds, and it's a meditative.
It's a meditative experience.
We did it out by the pool.
I think there were 35, 40 ofour residents.
Some of them sat around thepool, some sat in the pool.
(25:04):
It was a great experience.
The pool is used for.
We have aerobic water aerobicsin there.
People do laps in there.
And there's a lot of room forsitting around, just schmoozing,
talking to people.
We have bocce ball courts,which people are now learning to
play bocce ball.
It's a fun game and easy.
(25:25):
We have a putting green whichis not used the way that I had hoped
it would be.
But you learn what peoplereally want and what they don't.
And then we have an event, Blonde.
And this lawn is out kind ofin the corner of the property with
seating.
You can seat 300 to 350 peopleout on this lawn.
(25:47):
And I built it with the ideaof inviting the community again into
living out and to have events.
And I had to see how it worked.
I think it's going to work well.
We had our first event maybe amonth ago.
Our first headliner came andJohn Waters did his show on the event
(26:09):
lawn of living out.
Whoa.
And the residents got priority seating.
They got to meet with himafterwards without all the people
from the outside community.
And I hope to do more of thatkind of thing.
It's a very special thing to.
Yeah, yeah.
We have an art room.
(26:30):
We have a reading room andcard room that again, you know, a
lot of those activities in thecard room.
Two of our residents movedfrom Jersey.
They played Mexican Train.
Nobody who had moved in playedMexican Train.
They invited a couple ofpeople to learn with them.
And now every Friday at 10:30,there have to be at least 25 people
(26:54):
playing Mexico.
That's great.
We have a book club.
They set up their own book club.
I don't know if Catherine Forrest.
Katherine Forrest is a veryfamous lesbian writer.
She was the first mystery writer.
Lesbian mystery writer.
And very significant person inour community.
(27:17):
Catherine lives there andstarted a book club.
And so there's lots ofactivities that are resident generated.
It's.
Those are the kind of.
Those are the things that wehave there to offer to people.
It sounds great.
It really does.
I mean, I remember seeing.
Is the pool heated, by the way?
(27:39):
Yes, the pool heated.
Is heated to like 83 all year round.
Okay.
So you can go in a little bitchillier weather.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I've seen the outdoor space.
That was great, too.
There's just a lot to offer asfar as the community is concerned,
(27:59):
we are also very.
People have said, are you pet friendly?
And my response is, oh, we arepet encouraging.
I love that we have a lot ofdogs, a lot of cats living there.
In fact, the city asked us tobuild a retail building on the main
street side of our property,and we built a building that is all
(28:21):
pet services.
There's a pet store.
Yeah, that's the one rightacross from you.
Right.
It's called Tail Waggers.
Yes.
And it has pet grooming, ithas pet daycare, pet overnight stay,
and connected to it is thisvery large pet park, both for our
residents and people using thepet store.
(28:42):
That's great.
So this is.
I learned many years ago, twoanimals, two dogs.
Our pet policy is they're not disruptive.
Oh.
We don't have.
We don't have weight limitations.
We don't have number limitations.
Awesome.
I learned that our community.
(29:02):
I mean, as we all know, petsare a very important part of our
community, and I did not wantto put an impediment to people coming
with their pets.
Impediment.
Yeah.
All right.
Awesome.
Yes.
We love our animals, and welove our pets, so it's very important
(29:24):
to us, especially as we growolder, too.
That's our family, so.
Sure, sure.
Absolutely.
And they take care of us.
They do.
They sure do.
Is there any specific amenitythat caters to the LGBTQ community
specifically?
(29:46):
Not specifically.
Okay.
You froze, Mark.
Oh, I did.
Don't worry.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
It's reconnecting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's nothing specificallyother than our programming.
Oh.
I will tell you.
Yes, we do have somethingspecial that I don't think is anywhere
(30:08):
else in the world.
So in the development world,if you're a developer, nobody ever
wants to invest money for art.
Okay.
On the wall.
So you end up oftentimes withposter art or multiples of prints
and things like that.
(30:28):
And I wanted to do somethingdifferent than that to make it more
like a home.
So I was inspired by whathappens in Provincetown, particularly
at some of the restaurants,and talked to people about how they
did that.
And oftentimes they would putit up and sell it for the artists.
(30:49):
So, through some friends inthe art world here in Palm Springs,
we went out to many artists,and they.
I wanted them to be lgbtq, andI wanted them to live in the Coachella
Valley.
And I said to them, hang yourart with me.
I will sell it for you, and Iwill sell it without commission.
(31:15):
And so we have probably threeto 400 pieces of art throughout the
building that are for sale,that are fabulous, that are all lgbt.
And I suspect that we probablyhave the largest collection of displayed
LGBT art in America, if not beyond.
(31:37):
I remember.
Yeah.
Museums have.
So that is very lgbt.
You asked if I have anything special.
And so what we've done isbecause I want these people who are
doing this for me, they'rehelping me.
I want to sell their art forthem to the extent I can.
So residents have bought art.
We've had a couple of artwalks in Palm Springs.
(31:59):
There's a lot of art walksover the.
During the year.
And one art walk.
We had 300 people come and wesold a lot of the art.
We're about to do another artwork.
Two more art walks before theend of June.
I remember seeing that.
That stood out to me too,walking around the facility.
(32:20):
That's awesome.
How about.
So you said you start.
You started doing social events.
Do you have.
Or are you thinking about everdoing, like, wellness programs like
yoga or yoga?
We people did not seeminterested in yoga.
Okay.
They're interested in stretchclass, which serves some of the same
(32:45):
function.
There's been discussion aboutPilates, but Pilates takes a lot
of equipment or more room.
And we've talked to Eisenhower about.
Eisenhower's madepresentations at different times
about wellness.
We speak to the customer, andwhat they've asked for is what we're
(33:06):
giving them.
Stretch and water aerobics,things like that.
Awesome.
I mean, if people ask for it,we would figure out how to do it.
I think if you talk to ourresidents, we have a resident meeting
every four to six weeks wherethe residents make suggestions, and
to the extent we can, weimplement them.
(33:28):
Not only just programmatic,but changes in the landscaping, changes
in the building, things like that.
And word out on the street is,who are these people who are landlords
but listen to their tenants, right?
Yeah.
And we do.
That's great, because thesuccess of this is dependent on their
(33:49):
being happy.
Yes.
So how does living outintegrate with the broader Palm Springs
community?
Well, as I said, I've done itwhere I've invited them in.
We have programs where ourresidents will go.
Recently, they had a programat the art museum.
There's a special exhibit thata lot of people are interested in.
(34:13):
And the Palm Springs ArtMuseum did a special presentation
for our residents.
So we try to promote a lot of interaction.
And it.
I mean, Palm Springs is a gay city.
It's.
Yesterday at the SAGE event,they announced it's the gayest city
in America.
I don't know.
Wilton Manors might quarrelwith that.
(34:33):
I'm not sure.
I think Palm Springs wins.
Yeah.
And people said to me, well,why would you do this in Palm Springs?
Because you can live in almostany environment and it'd be comfortable.
And I was asked that by thecity council when I first proposed
this, and my answer was thatloneliness and isolation is almost
(34:57):
a natural course as you get older.
And unless you're a person whois bound and determined to get out
of the house and interact,that isolation develops.
You may lose a spouse.
You just may not be interestedin getting up and going out.
(35:17):
And so even in thesecommunities that are so welcoming
and kind, your own personalsituation can be disheartening.
And so people can come livehere and not leave their apartment.
(35:37):
That's their choice.
They can leave for somethings, they can leave for other
things, but they have thatopportunity to develop friendships
and to develop new relationships.
We had somebody move in fromSan Francisco.
I think he's in one of ourpromotional things, he said, I'm
76 years old.
It's not easy to make friendsat 76.
(35:59):
He said, I've been here for acouple of months, and I have three
people who I would considerpeople that I can rely on and that
are friends of mine.
So that's why I did it.
Because if they lived in anapartment, that probably wouldn't
happen.
Yep.
So it is very important.
And that's why my whole thing.
(36:20):
I do Facebook groups.
I do my Where Do Gays Retire?
Podcast.
I'm working on another project.
So, yeah, I'm all aboutbuilding community within the LGBTQ
community.
And friends are hard to.
As you said, friends are veryhard to come by, especially those
good friends that would doanything for you.
(36:42):
I mean, a lot of people I know.
I know people who have abillion acquaintances, and that's
fine and dandy.
But when it comes down totaking you to a doctor's appointment
or driving you to the hospitalif you can't go, if you need something,
going to the grocery store,something you know, and you do for
(37:04):
them, they do for you.
That's so important as we grow older.
That's right.
And unfortunately, we, likeany other senior community, have
lost people from disease anddeath, and the community has rallied
behind their spouses ifthere's a spouse involved.
(37:24):
People are not.
They don't feel alone if theydon't want to feel alone.
Very important.
Very important.
And remind me to.
I'll talk to you after theshow about something.
So one of the amenities thatyou used to have.
Oops.
(37:45):
I just.
Where did I go?
One of the amenities that Iused to have that you used to have,
was it Ubers.
Do you still do that?
Oh, yes, we still do that.
Okay.
We have a Lyft program whereif you need a ride somewhere, we
provide a lift.
Okay, I like that.
Yes.
So thank you for reminding that.
(38:06):
Yep.
So that my marketing directoris going to be very unhappy with
me.
I remember that I said, Ithink they provide Uber or Lyft or
something where people, ifthey didn't have a vehicle, they
can get around and if theywanted to go get a couple of cocktails,
they could just take a lift.
(38:26):
Right?
That's right.
And get a lift back.
Right.
We can arrange for that.
That's great.
And that's included in the rents?
Yes.
Awesome.
Okay, so let's see.
General.
What are the general costs ofliving and living out?
There are different pricingtiers depending upon what you're
(38:48):
looking for.
Correct.
Like what type?
Yes, the pricing.
The pricing varies from theone or two bedroom, plus within the
two bedroom, the size of thetwo bedroom.
And then the pricing varieswith the floors.
The first floor is the mostexpensive because all of those apartments
(39:10):
have private yards and a lotof people with pets in particular
want to be there in their bigprivate yards.
The top floor is then thesecond most, and then the middle
floor.
And then we have threedifferent views.
One looks straight at MountSan Jacinto, which is that big imposing
(39:33):
mountain that dominates Palm Springs.
And then there's a viewtowards the San Gorgonios, which
is where the snow builds up inthe winter.
Right now it's snow covered.
And then there's another.
And I'm going to forget thename of the mountain range, but it
looks at the parking lot,which is the least desirable, we
(39:54):
thought, but it has beautifulmountain views above the parking
lot.
And so what we're doing isputting in shades.
We have shades in the units,but we're going to change the shades
that people would like to gofrom the bottom up so they can cut
out.
The car view, cut out theparking lot.
Yeah.
And look at the mountains.
(40:14):
And the rents go generallyfrom 4,500 to 8,000 for the most
expensive unit, 8,200.
That includes free breakfast.
It includes all utilities,which in Palm Springs are quite expensive,
particularly in the summer.
Air conditioning.
Yes.
It includes weekly housekeeping.
(40:36):
It includes every six monthsof deep housekeeping, deep cleaning.
It includes the lift program.
If you take off the cost ofall of those things that you would
incur elsewhere, it's a Very,in today's world, a very reasonable
price that includes.
The pool and the gym and everything.
Oh, sure.
(40:56):
All that stuff includes amenities.
Yeah, yeah.
If you wanted privatetraining, you would pay for that
yourself.
Yeah.
If you want a haircut, it'snot an issue for you and me, but
we have a salon and you wouldpay for that.
If you want a manicure, youwould pay for that.
But most everything isincluded, so your expenses are really
(41:17):
controlled.
And it's interesting becausewe didn't know how the rental program
would work, whether peoplewould be receptive to it, because
in America there's so muchfocus on building equity through
home ownership.
Right.
It's kind of, kind of theAmerican dream.
And people, when they firstthink about this, are struggling.
(41:38):
Well, I'm not going to earnany equity.
I'm just going to be spending money.
And I said to some people,well, what are you going to do with
that equity?
What are you going to leave itto your children you're going to
leave?
Or to your nephews who maybewon't even talk to you?
Or your dog.
Yeah, or your dog.
So live your life and you needto be careful and make sure that
(42:00):
you have enough money.
Have enough money.
But you know, this idea ofhomeownership is, as you get older,
it's, it's not the rightthought process in my mind.
What was your deciding factorinstead of going the condo route
that you went the rental route?
Deciding factor was cost of construction.
(42:24):
California is very litigious.
Homeowners associationsinevitably sue the developer, the
contractor, the architect forlots of things.
If they think there's too muchnoise, they sue.
And so we learned that thecost of construction because all
(42:46):
the people involved build thatin to their cost in case something
happens.
The cost is much moreexpensive, it's much more prohibitive,
and it's much more difficultto finance condominium development
in California.
California is very pro buyerin the condo world, where many states
(43:10):
are not.
So you are not allowed to makenon refundable a deposit on a condominium
until a year before you open.
And yet as a developer, you'reborrowing money two years before
and the banks are saying,well, how do we know that these are
going to sell and you can'tshow them non refundable deposits.
(43:34):
So it became very difficult.
A lot of the banks reallyloved the concept.
They wanted to be on theground floor with this new idea,
but many of them were notwilling to take that risk.
So we switched to rental.
And in a way, I want thedeciding factor for me was that I
(43:54):
get to control it.
And what I mean by that is, ina homeowners association, you don't
know who's going to take overthe homeowners association.
The homeowners.
Yeah.
You have to.
And they may want this to beless gay.
They may want this.
They may want this to besomething very different.
(44:18):
Then I conceived of it.
Whereas in a rental, Paul andI still own it and we control.
And I wanted that for ourcommunity because I don't want them
to be sold out.
That's a great point, becauseI always ask somebody that had, like,
(44:42):
an LGBTQ community for sale,how do you control who you sell to?
It's not.
If someone decides to selltheir unit, you can tell them that
they can't sell to a straight person.
So you.
You lose that.
(45:02):
That difference of beingsolely lgbtq.
So where, in your case, it'syour business?
Well, I can't discriminate.
I can't discriminate.
Right.
Nor are we interested in discriminating.
We have straight people living there.
But as I say to people who askme that question, I say straight
(45:26):
people have to be comfortablein our culture, and if they're not
going to be happy there.
My mother lived in thiswonderful place outside of Boston.
It was operated by HebrewSenior Life, and they didn't discriminate.
But it was mostly Jews wholive there.
Right.
(45:47):
And the same with us.
People come and they know thatwe are an LGBT focused.
And if they're comfortablewith it, I welcome them with open
arms.
Sure.
If they're.
If they know up front, and I'msure they do, because first of all,
you're in Palm Springs.
That's one hint.
Number two, you're in acommunity that's known to be solely
(46:12):
LGBTQ or lgbtq.
And there's a big flag hangingout there.
Right?
There's a big flag hanging out there.
And even my flower.
My pots.
Plant pots as you come intothe property.
These probably weren't therethe last time you were there, Mark,
but they're beautiful mosaicpots in the pride colors and, you
(46:35):
know, it's all about us.
Yep.
All about.
I love it.
I love it.
That's great.
Yeah.
I mean, that's.
That seems like, in itself,that would make the property so appealing
just to be amongst yourself inan LGBTQ community.
(46:55):
It does not.
You can't find that anywhere else.
Right?
That's right.
You may have a community, asyou said, Wilton Manners is predominantly
gay or lgbtq.
They may have people justliving together.
And the same thing in PalmSprings, but there's no.
There's no community withinPalm Springs.
(47:18):
I've heard some people,though, say, let me ask you this
question.
I've heard some people say,well, it's Palm Springs.
Everyone's gay.
What's the difference?
And what do you think?
How do you answer that?
Again, the difference is isolation.
As you get older, it's anatural fact.
(47:39):
I don't know anybody whohasn't gotten older and had some
sense of isolation compared towhat their lives had been before.
Yep.
They may not have.
They may have limitedmobility, so they can't go out to
the bars like they used to.
It's true, we are a gay city,but it's very different to have community
(48:03):
and to have it right at your doorstep.
Yep, it sure is.
Sure is.
How does Living out supportand participate in vibrant local
LGBTQ culture?
Well, we're in the PrideParade, and our residents walk and
ride in the Pride Parade.
(48:25):
Every year since we've beenhere, we've been in the Pride Parade.
We're like.
Living out has become thenatural place for many LGBT organizations
to have their gatherings.
HRC recently had.
Now, these are fundraisingevents, but they reach out to the
(48:47):
broader community.
HRC asked if they could havetheir event there.
The center has had events there.
It's a natural spot forgathering in our community.
John Waters.
I mean, John Waters was acitywide event.
I mean, that.
That's how we participate.
(49:09):
You're in a great spot, too.
Yes, it's a great location.
We're very lucky.
We're very lucky with that location.
Could actually walk todifferent places.
Sure.
You can walk to downtown.
It's a little bit of a walk.
Or you can walk to the Arenas District.
A funny story.
My business partner, who'sstraight, when we were putting together
the package to raise themoney, you know, you always put a
(49:31):
series of maps.
You start with, like, a map ofthe US and then narrow down to Palm
Springs.
And then we had our final mapof Palm Springs, and we had outlined
the Arenas District.
Well, Paul didn't know theArenas District, and he said, how
come you didn't show downtown?
He said, no, it's the ArenasDistrict that people go to.
(49:53):
He didn't know what that was,but we are part of that community.
Yeah.
That's great.
I had.
Yeah.
I mean, I had one of ourlittle where to Gays retire get togethers
at quads.
Yeah.
At the Arenas District.
We recently.
You're familiar with Brand G,the cruise lines.
(50:16):
Yeah.
They have a large contingentof customers who have been on their
cruises who live in Palm Springs.
And they, they came to Livingout and had their get together with
their customers at Living Out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're kind of naturally aplace where the community thinks
(50:37):
about now.
That's wonderful.
That's wonderful.
And how does the year roundsunny weather in Palm Springs enhance
the experience for residents?
Well, it's sunny, pleasant.
How about summertime?
Nobody can go out.
Summertime.
Summer.
Summertime is hot.
(50:58):
Phoenix is hot.
There are a lot of hot places.
But you learn to kind ofstructure your day around the heat.
You get up in the morning,early in the morning.
Exactly.
You stay inside or you go geton a lift and go to a air conditioned
restaurant.
You blast your airconditioning because I'm paying for
(51:20):
it.
And then in the evening whenit cools down, you go down and have
a drink.
You go sit in the fire pit andwatch the mountain as the sun setting.
It's livable.
I mean, we have people who dogo to different places in the summer.
I was going to ask you, do youfind that even though they're yearly
(51:40):
rentals that you havesnowbirds that they leave Palm Spring,
they leave living out?
Yes.
Yes.
Generally for not more thanthree months.
Yeah.
Most people are here for ninemonths at a time at least.
But do you have, do you have alot of people that remain?
Yes, in the summer.
(52:01):
I would say the bulk of theresidents remain in the summer.
That's important too, becauseyou don't want to be.
Well, first of all, you'rerenting a place for a year.
It's expensive to go somewhereelse for three months unless you
own it.
So.
Yeah, I was always curiousabout that through people.
And we have, we've designedsome opportunities.
(52:22):
I was telling this fellow Iwas touring today we have a program
called the Wanderlust programwhere we invite someone to rent for
one to three months.
The rents are significantlyhigher than they would be for a one
year lease.
But they can come and live ina furnished unit and see if they
(52:45):
like it.
And some people have done thatin the summer, some people have done
that in the winter.
And we're quite convinced thatit's a good thing for me as the owner
because most of the people whohave done this Wanderlust program
have then gone on to signleases because it's difficult to
(53:07):
come to this place and not be happy.
Yeah.
It's like everybody has smileson their face when they're walking
around the halls, so.
Right.
Yeah.
What's not to be happy?
Yeah.
A little popcorn and candywith A movie.
I was in the.
I was in the card room librarytoday with this person.
(53:28):
I was touring and a couple ofour residents were getting ready
for book club.
And they said, are you goingto move in?
And he said, well, I'm just looking.
And they said, oh, trust me.
You want to live here?
Yeah.
Oh, my question is, can youwalk to Sherman's?
Yes.
I'm a New Yorker.
(53:48):
I'm like, I love Sherman.
I do too.
A New York Jew.
Yeah.
So Sherman's, although thelast corned beef.
Sandwich I had was a littlefatty, was.
It was not happy.
Yeah, No, I go to Sherman'spretty frequently and people can
walk there, but most peopletake the lift.
Yeah, it's one of my favoritebreakfast places.
(54:08):
Okay.
So I think we were talkingabout Sherman's and all those good
restaurants and Alice B's.
I'm going to Billy Reed's tomorrow.
Oh, are you?
Yeah.
What's that?
Oh, you don't know Billy Reed's?
It's a coffee shop down on thenorth end.
It's been here since the 70s.
It's a wonderful coffee shop.
(54:29):
I have to hang out with you alittle bit more.
My life is built around anyeating, so.
Mine too.
You're a man after my heart.
I love it.
All right, so let's talk alittle bit.
Oh, again, I wanted to mentionto our audience the price of these
(54:53):
units.
They do include all of utilities.
So just be aware that somehomes in Palm Springs people have
over $1,000 electric billduring the summer months at least.
So it's important to know thatit's included in your rent.
(55:15):
So keep that in mind.
All right, so let's talk alittle bit about safety and well
being.
What measures are in place toensure safety and security at living
out?
Well, we have a front deskthat's attended 24 7.
(55:36):
We have.
It's a gated community.
Although the gates are openwhen the restaurant's open, we have
cameras all around the building.
If we have special events likethe Sage event, we have additional
security people there.
We're very heightenedly awareof safety and security.
(56:00):
The building as it relates tofire and things like that is obviously
up to speed.
It's a new building.
The fire department is veryhappy with whatever we do there.
But I will say that there aresome residents who feel like if people
can come in, there's a chancethat somebody could stay and cause
(56:22):
trouble.
And I've hesitated becauseparticularly in this environment
that we're in now, I don'twant this to become an Armed camp.
Nor do most of the people.
There are some people who aremore worried than others.
But, you know, they know thatwe are very attuned.
They know that the policedepartment is very connected to us.
(56:45):
At this sage event yesterday,the chief of police was there.
He's very supportive of theliving out community.
And we've never had an issue,and we've been opened a year and
a half now.
So those are the type of measures.
You can't get into theelevators without a key fob.
(57:06):
All of the amenities that areopen to the residents only are fobbed.
Access from the outside is fobbed.
So you have to be connected toliving out to have access to living
out.
Right.
So everything.
All the gym, the pool, all thepools on the outside.
(57:28):
Yeah, but is it separate the pool?
Do you have to go through a gate?
Yeah, there's a gate there.
Yeah, that's fob.
Yeah.
Okay.
But it's a very secure property.
More secure than anything elsein Palm Springs that I'm aware of.
And, yeah, as you mentioned,the Palm Springs police is on it
(57:52):
and very supportive.
Right.
To the Palm Springs community,as is the fire department.
The fire department, yes.
Okay.
So that makes me feel better.
So you have concierge.
Everything is locked up.
No vandalism.
Have you ever experienced vandalism?
(58:14):
No.
Okay, sounds good to me.
Let's see future expansions.
Do you have any plans on doinganything else as far as living out
is concerned or anything?
Well, I would like to.
I would like to.
(58:34):
I've been approached byseveral developers about doing things
in potentially communitieswhere they're active.
Development is a long,difficult process, and I'm no longer
young.
And so I think, for me,development is not in the future,
(58:56):
but management and operationare in the future.
And I know that this can bedone in many locations in the United
States, although my thoughtprocess is different than others
in terms of what it takes tobe successful.
(59:16):
There was an attempt to do onein Santa Fe years ago, and it did
not succeed.
Even though Santa Fe is knownas a very welcoming, friendly, open
community, in my mind, it isnot a gay community.
It is not.
(59:36):
There's no central gatheringof the community.
Palm Springs, the whole thingis a central gathering.
Okay, pretty much, yeah.
But there are places likeWilton Manors, Fort Lauderdale, and
there's a significant.
There's a LGBT center there.
There's lots of communityinvolvement in Dallas.
(01:00:00):
I forget the name of the community.
Is it Oaklawn or.
It's a very vibrant,significant LGBT community in those
kind.
In Atlanta in Midtown.
It's an LGBT community.
And so in my mind, that'swhere you have to be.
You don't want to be out inthe suburbs of Atlanta.
(01:00:21):
As a result, most of thefuture development will probably
be higher up because these areurban environments, and so it will
be different.
But Palm Springs is a resortcommunity, whereas Dallas is not
a resort community.
I know that this will succeed.
(01:00:41):
I know this will succeed.
Living out is the subject of acase study by NYU School of Business.
It hasn't been published yet,but it's going to be published probably
in the next year or so.
And it's focused on financingbecause that's, to be honest, the
most difficult thing is to getfinancing for a project of this nature.
(01:01:04):
And so I think that will helppeople understand that it's achievable
and what it takes.
And nyu.
Sam Chandon, who's in chargeof this part of nyu, the real estate
branch of NYU School ofBusiness, was out and spent a lot
of time talking about thethings that we had done to raise
(01:01:25):
money for this project to getit developed.
And I think over.
Everybody's waiting to makesure that I succeed.
And once I succeed, and I'm very.
And I consider success 85, 90%occupancy, and we're at 75%.
I think once I succeed, you'llsee other people coming to me and
(01:01:50):
saying, help me do this elsewhere.
That's great.
I wish they would do one herein Phoenix.
Phoenix is on my list.
But then again, I'll tell youafter that, I'm pretty sure that
we're moving.
We're on the road again.
Really?
I'll tell you after.
(01:02:12):
But, you know, there's a lotof places.
San Diego would be a wonderfulplace to have living out.
Long beach would be a greatplace to have a living out.
Los Angeles would be a greatplace to have a living out.
There's so many places whereour community, I mean, there's such
a need.
People have said to me, well,are you worried that somebody will
(01:02:33):
come in and compete with youin another place?
And I said, no, we need it.
I'm never going to be able tosatisfy the demand.
When you talked aboutdevelopment, and that's one of the
hardest parts, I rememberliving out took a long time to get
developed, right?
Yes.
(01:02:53):
I remember it being an emptylot for a long time with just a sign
that it was there.
And then I came back and I waslike, they're building.
And it was like, how long didthat take?
It took about from beginningto end about five years now.
Part of that was because weshifted from condominium to rental
(01:03:14):
to rental.
Yeah.
Part of it was the need to getfinancing and having to go.
That's a long process to go through.
Part of it was we woulddelayed in construction.
Our contractor was delayedseven months.
Part of it was Covid.
So I would think that normallyit could be a three month process.
(01:03:36):
The other thing that it could be.
It doesn't have to be three year.
Three year.
Three year.
I'm sorry.
It doesn't have to be ground up.
I don't know how much peopleknow about commercial real estate,
but there's been a strong moveto adaptive reuse of buildings.
(01:03:56):
Office buildings that nolonger can fill up are becoming hotels,
becoming residences.
And so I think around thecountry there are opportunities to
buy an existing building.
And once you have thestructure, yes, it takes time to
gut the thing and rebuild iton the inside, but it's a very much
(01:04:18):
simpler process.
And there's getting throughthe city.
I mean, the city was wonderfulwith us.
Wonderful.
But it's still a process andyou have to honor that process.
And people in the city need tohave input.
Yep, got it.
So what has been the mostfulfilling or surprising part of
(01:04:43):
you leading this project?
So I have a dear friend whoserved on the board of the center
with me.
She now lives in CentralCalifornia, up near Pismo Beach.
And she wrote to me and shesaid, have you had that moment where
you realize what you've created?
(01:05:04):
And I said, no, I haven'treally had it yet.
This was about a year ago.
I said, I'm still, like fortumult, I'm still.
And she said, well, you'regoing to have it at a moment that
you have no idea for that it'sgoing to hit you.
And I was in the lounge atbreakfast and there had to be maybe
(01:05:26):
40 people sitting, having breakfast.
And then some people came inand I had no idea who they were because
I hadn't met them yet.
Most people know me.
And then some other peoplecame in and I sat there and Mark,
for the first time I weptbecause I realized all these people
(01:05:47):
are coming because of you.
Well, not because of me, butbecause what I've created.
Right.
Because what I created andthat I've met the need for our community.
And that was.
It was a very significantmoment for me.
You're making me cry now.
(01:06:13):
That's great.
Yeah, it's.
Yeah.
You just.
Well, yeah, one day you justsit there and say, wow, look what
I've done.
Yeah.
It's a big accomplishment.
Yeah.
Whereas a year ago, when wefirst were opening and I was saying,
look what I've done.
Oh, what have I done?
(01:06:36):
Yes.
Things will always work out inthe end.
Yes.
So any.
Any words of wisdom to ourLGBTQ community that's looking to
make community?
Yeah.
First look at living out.
Okay.
It's not as difficult atransition as one might think, and
(01:07:00):
it's a very fulfilling transition.
And then find a place wherepeople will support you if you need
to retire and need to do itsomewhere near where you live, and
there's not a lot of opportunities.
Do some research.
Sage, in which I'm on theboard, has a program where called
(01:07:24):
Sage Cares, and they contractwith mainstream retirement communities,
and they go in and teach themabout the specific needs of LGBT
people, both health wise,emotion wise, and they teach them
how to be responsive to ourpeople and give them a full life,
(01:07:51):
and they are certified.
So I would say look for a SAGEcertification that will give you
greater comfort that you willbe welcomed in that community.
But come to Palm Springs.
It's the gayest city in America.
You belong here.
(01:08:12):
It is.
It's one of my favorite places.
It really is.
I just spent some time therenext door in Cathedral City, Rancho
Mirage.
Have wonderful friends fromthere, met wonderful people, lived
with them for three months,and had a bowl.
So I will be back.
(01:08:34):
Right, Right.
It's a wonderful place.
All right, Lauren, thank youso much.
Thank you for being on the podcast.
I really appreciate learningabout living Out.
For me, it's.
I knew what you were exactlytalking about because I've been there,
and it makes a difference.
So for all of the listenersand people out there, go take a tour.
(01:08:59):
While you're in Palm Springs,go to Living Out.
Take a tour, see what you'remissing, and then you'll love it.
Great.
Thanks again, Lauren.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
See you.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to theWhere Do Gays Retire?
(01:09:21):
Podcast.
If you enjoyed today'sepisode, please subscribe to our
podcast and consider making adonation by clicking the coffee cup
on any page@www.wheredogaysretire.com.
each cup of coffee that youbuy costs $5 and goes towards helping
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