February 12, 2025 • 37 mins
Today, we’re diving into a big question: Is marriage equality in peril? Spoiler alert: it’s a bit of a rollercoaster, but we’ve got Evan Wolfson on the mic, and he’s here to break it all down. Evan’s not just any guest; he’s a legend in the fight for marriage equality, and he’s got the inside scoop on what’s at stake for the LGBTQ community right now. We chat about the progress we’ve made, the challenges that lie ahead, and how important it is to stay engaged and hopeful. So, grab your favorite drink, kick back, and let’s get into this important convo that’s all about love, rights, and a brighter future!
In the latest episode of Where Do Gays Retire?, we take a compelling look at the intersection of LGBTQ rights and the pressing question of marriage equality. Our host Mark Goldstein sits down with none other than Evan Wolfson, a pioneer in the marriage equality movement. As they navigate through the current political landscape, it becomes clear that while we’ve made significant strides, there are still shadows lurking. Wolfson reflects on his early days as an activist and the fierce battles fought to secure the rights we have today. He doesn’t shy away from discussing the challenges that lie ahead, especially in light of recent threats to these hard-won liberties. Listeners will find themselves armed with knowledge about the historical context of marriage rights, the significance of the Obergefell decision, and the urgent need for continued activism. This episode serves as a rallying cry for the community, encouraging everyone to stay engaged and hopeful as we continue to fight for equality and safety in our retirement years. Mark and Evan remind us that the power of love and commitment is resilient, and together, we can create a future where everyone can retire with dignity and joy.
Takeaways:
- Evan Wolfson's journey in advocating for marriage equality spans over three decades, starting from his law school thesis in 1983.
- The 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges decision marked a historic victory, legalizing same-sex marriage across the U.S. and changing countless lives.
- Wolfson emphasizes that while the fight for equality continues, there are solid protections in place, like the Respect for Marriage Act.
- Engagement and activism are crucial; we can't just sit back and hope for progress, we must actively participate.
- The LGBTQ+ community has made incredible strides, now 39 countries recognize marriage equality, showcasing the power of perseverance.
- Wolfson encourages everyone to stay hopeful and engaged, as collective action can lead to significant change over time.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Freedom to Marry
- Lambda Legal
- GLAD
- ACLU
- National Center for Lesbian Rights
- Stand Up America
- Indivisible
- Protect America
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Where Do Gays Retire?
Podcast, where we help you inthe LGBTQ community find a safe and
affordable retirement place.
Join Mark Goldstein as heinterviews others who live in gay
friendly places around the globe.
Learn about the climate, costof living, health care, crime and
safety, and more.
(00:22):
Now here's your host, Mark Goldstein.
Today we have a different typeof question.
Is marriage equality in peril?
Evan Wolfson explains what'sat stake.
I'll introduce you to Evan.
Good afternoon, Evan.
Good to be with you.
(00:44):
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Appreciate it.
Happy to.
Evan Wolfson is a trailblazingattorney and a leading voice in the
fight for marriage equality.
Known as the architect of themarriage equality movement, he founded
and is president of Freedom to Marry.
This campaign was pivotal insecuring the landmark 2015 U.S.
(01:07):
supreme Court decision inObergefell vs.
Hodges, which legalized samesex marriage nationwide.
A graduate of Harvard LawSchool, Wolfson's advocacy for LGBTQ
rights began early in his career.
His work on Hawaii's bear vs.
Miike case set the stage fornational conversations about marriage
(01:32):
equality.
He has been recognized as oneof Time magazine's 100 Most Influential
People in the world and hasreceived numerous honors for his
contributions to civil rightsand social justice.
Today, Evan Wolfson continuesto inspire activism, consulting with
(01:53):
organizations and movementsworldwide to advance equality and
human rights.
His unwavering commitment tojustice and equality has made him
a respected leader and beaconof hope for the LGBTQ community and
my personal hero.
Thank you, Evan.
Thank you.
We'll start off with a coupleof questions.
(02:15):
Your introduction and background.
Can you start sharing yourrole in the fight for marriage equality
and why this issue has beencentral to your work?
And also for those who may notknow, could you briefly explain what
Obergefell vs Hodgesestablished and its significance
for LGBTQ rights in the United States?
(02:37):
That covers a lot of ground.
Well, I wrote my law schoolthesis back in 1983, arguing that
we should fight for thefreedom to marry and that we could
win the freedom to marry.
And of course, this was at atime when there was nowhere in the
world where same sex couplescould marry.
It was a very dark anddifficult time for gay people and
for advocates of democracy.
(02:59):
We were facing a very hostilepolitical administration.
We were facing a surgingreligious right wing movement.
We were facing, perhaps mostpointedly and shockingly, the cataclysm
of aids.
And people were dying allaround us.
(03:20):
Our friends, our colleagues,our fellow activists, our community.
And yet, at that time, I alsobelieved there was a pathway forward.
And so, as a student I wrotethis argument.
I was not the first person tothink of the idea that gay people
should be able to marry.
Part of what I was writingabout in that thesis was a wave of
cases that had been brought bypioneering activists and couples
(03:43):
around the country a decade orso earlier before me, that all sought
the freedom to marry.
And all of which were denied,all had been excluded.
In the immediate aftermath ofStonewall in 1969, these couples
around the country went tocourt seeking the freedom to marry,
which was denied them.
And they all lost, includingone of the cases that went all the
way up to the United StatesSupreme Court, which, like all the
(04:05):
other courts, got it wrong.
So I came into the story abouta decade later and was arguing that
we should not take that no foran answer.
And that scary and dark as thetimes were, we could help people
to rise and we could makethings better.
And that there was a way tomove forward.
And that we would do so bycombining all the methodologies of
(04:29):
change, to use a phrase fromMartin Luther King, that while litigation
was important, so waspolitical engagement, so was fundraising,
so was organizing, so wascommunity building, so was protest,
and so was persuasion.
Talking to people, notassuming that just because they weren't
with us that they couldn'tchange, that we could change hearts
and minds and thereby changethe law.
(04:51):
And I put this paper out intothe world and then moved to New York
after graduating law schooland began working.
And I had my day job and I hadmy nights and weekends as an activist,
and I was volunteering withLambda Legal and working with some
of the other organizationsduring these beleaguered battling
times.
And of course, what I wasadvocating for, along with doing
(05:15):
cases on the range ofconcerns, partnership, healthcare,
adoption, militarydiscrimination, employment discrimination,
aids, was that we should alsohave a marriage strategy.
And that what we were going toneed was a campaign in the midst
of this movement to drive astrategy and to leverage support
and to bring the pieces andmethodologies together to win.
(05:37):
And that became the campaignthat we eventually branded and organized
as Freedom to Marry, which wasaiming at creating the climate in
which legislative work, ballotmeasure work, persuasion, and litigation
could all happen in order toget us from 0 to 50 states, to get
(05:58):
us from zero to our country,to get us from zero to more countries
around the world.
And as the culmination of thatstruggle and long term battling and
campaign and many, manydefeats as well as victories in 2015,
we were finally able to havecreated the climate and then be able
(06:19):
to go to the Supreme Court top them and Persuade them and help
them to turn their no into a yes.
And so the culmination of thecampaign, after winning battles in
states and hearts and mindsand around water coolers and family
kitchen tables and so on, wasto succeed in persuading the Supreme
(06:41):
Court to end marriagediscrimination nationwide.
And that was the obergefelldecision in 2015, one of the many,
many court decisions that webegan by losing, losing, losing,
losing, and eventually wereable to turn into win by creating
the climate and doing themulti methodological work that enabled
(07:01):
that litigation to succeed.
And so in 2015, a decade ago,we won the freedom to marry nationwide.
We had already won in manystates, and now we brought the country
to national resolution.
And of course, the work hasn'tstopped there.
We've continued to harness thepower of the marriage conversation
and the marriage strategy andthe marriage model to advance the
(07:23):
other work that is urgent notonly in the United States, but in
many, many countries.
And we've gone from zerocountries in the world where same
sex couples could MARRY now to39 and counting.
More than a billion people nowlive in a freedom to marry country
worldwide, including ofcourse, our own.
And we've used that power ofthe conversation, that vocabulary
(07:46):
of love and commitment andfamily and dignity and inclusion
and freedom and pluralism toadvance not just marriage, but partnership
rights, protections againstdiscrimination, decriminalization,
first in the United States andthen in other countries where we
need to continue that work andalso advancing trans rights, youth
(08:09):
rights, student rights,inclusion, et cetera.
And so, as everybody knows, wehave made enormous progress and we've
changed the map in the face ofthe place of same sex couples and
gay people and trans people.
And the work is far from finished.
There's so much more to do,both to defend what we've won and
(08:30):
to continue advancing here inthe United States and in other countries.
When did you start this?
When.
How many decades did you, didyou go through?
I had done a few little thingshere and there, but my real beginning
as a long term activists waswith, with this paper, this thesis
(08:51):
in law school, which I wrotein 1983.
Okay, so, so it was Dec.
It was Decades of work for me.
I mean, it was from 1983 untilwe won in 2015 was 32 years of engaging
in one form or another.
And as I said, I was not thefirst, I was not the one who began
it all.
So it was more than fourdecades to achieve that transformation
(09:16):
and to win the freedom tomarry, and not just win the freedom
to marry, but to advance theplace of Gay and trans people here
in the United States and in other.
Other parts of the world.
I mean, people have tounderstand when.
When I was, you know, a youngperson and a student and an early
activist and so on, that wasat a time when it was criminal in
most places in the UnitedStates, as well as in many countries
(09:39):
around the world, as it stillis in some, to have sex, let alone
to have relationships.
It was a time when there werealmost no protections against discrimination
in employment and housing, inaccess to services, in treatment
by the government, and so on.
And we, you know, we stillhave a long way to go, but, of course,
we have massively changed that landscape.
(10:01):
And public support for gaypeople and for trans people and for
inclusion and for pluralismgrew massively as we engaged and
persuaded and battled andchanged hearts and minds.
When I wrote my law schoolthesis in 1983, 11% of the American
people supported the freedomto marry.
(10:22):
Now we're at 70% or more,including people who were formally
opposed, including olderpeople, Republicans, even conservatives,
people who identify asreligious, et cetera.
We have moved hearts and mindsand changed the law.
And the work is not finished.
And there's much more we needto do.
(10:43):
Right.
The conversation continues.
So tell us, how secure ismarriage equality under the law today?
Well, I think everybody isaware, and if you weren't aware two
weeks ago, you're aware now,that we are in a very dark and dangerous
(11:06):
time in the United States, notto mention several other countries,
as we see surging efforts atautocracy, oligarchy, power and wealth
grabs, chaos, corruption fromTrump, the Republicans who are enabling
him, the oligarchic forces whoare bankrolling him and sometimes
directly colluding with him.
(11:27):
And so this is a verydangerous time for not just for gay
people, but for democracyitself and for our American freedom,
our pluralism, our nationalsecurity, which is under assault
by these corrupt forces.
And so when you ask, howsecure is the freedom to marry?
(11:48):
In.
In one sense, nothing rightnow is secure in the sense of we
don't have to do anything andwe don't have to worry and we call,
just sit back and watch the chaos.
We have threats to everythingwe care about that are underway.
But if what you mean by thequestion is, should we be particularly
(12:10):
worried about losing thefreedom to marry we fought for and
won over decades, I would saythat's not the number one thing to
be focused on.
It's not the number one thingto worry about.
Anything can happen.
Bad things can happen.
There are bad things that are happening.
But there are enough badthings that are happening already
that we don't have to spendall our time trying to catalog more
(12:32):
bad things that might happen.
Let's just get to work andblock those bad things and move our
country in the right directionand organize and persuade and build
and reinvigorate our democracy.
And if we do that work, wewill prevent the other bad things
that haven't happened yet from happening.
So rather than, as I said,sitting around cataloging all the
(12:54):
bad things that could happen,it's much better to see the bad things
that are happening, engage,push back, and fix the crises that
are in the country already.
And how would you go aboutdoing that?
Well, let me just say, give alittle more detail on why I prioritize
(13:17):
that way.
We didn't win the freedom tomarry as a gift from the Supreme
Court.
We won it over decades ofengagement, struggle, battles, and
as I said earlier, multiplemethodologies, litigation here, legislation
there, work at the local levelin the states as well as at the federal
level, in Congress and in thecourts and in the Supreme Court.
(13:37):
So even if the Supreme Courtwere to do something terrible, that
doesn't erase everything elsethat happened, it doesn't change
all the advances that havebeen made in the states, at the federal
level, in Congress, in thehearts and minds, in the communities,
et cetera, it might makethings worse, it might make things
(13:59):
a little more challenging.
But this wasn't handed to usas a package, and it's not all going
to go away in one fell swoop,even if something bad were to happen
in this category.
So to be concrete about it,even just last November, this last
election, which narrowly butsignificantly went wrong at the level
(14:23):
of the presidency andCongress, we saw three states write
the freedom to marry intotheir constitutions.
We saw multiple jurisdictionsover the course of the last several
decades solidify theircommitment to dignity and equality
and love and freedom.
(14:45):
So even if the worst were tohappen, those bad things, those things
don't go away.
It moves us maybe slightlymore in a checkerboard direction
again, but it doesn't clearthe board.
It doesn't wipe everything away.
And of course, mostsignificantly, during the last couple
years, two years ago,actually, to be precise, President
Biden signed into law theRespect for Marriage act, which is
(15:08):
federal legislation that waspassed by a bipartisan vote of Congress
in 2022, affirming the freedomto marry and making clear that even
if the Supreme Court were tosay there is no nationwide guarantee
of the freedom to marry, thatif couples are legally married anywhere,
(15:32):
whether in the United Statesor in other countries, including
the 38 other countries that wewon, those marriages will be respected
by the federal government andmust be respected by states throughout
the United States.
So in other words, even if theSupreme Court did the worst thing,
something that maybe there aretwo votes on the Supreme Court to
(15:54):
do, but I doubt there arefive, and said we were wrong in saying
there's a national freedom tomarry, we're going to return the
question to the states.
Even if they did that, andeven if some states under Republican
domination and religious rightwing pressure pushed in the wrong
direction and tried to takeaway the freedom to marry, say in
(16:15):
Alabama, people in Alabamawould still have under this federal
legislation the ability to getmarried in Georgia or in New Mexico
or in California or New York,et cetera, et cetera.
And when they come home toAlabama, in that hypothetical, Alabama
(16:36):
would have to honor andrespect those marriages as marriages,
and so would the federal government.
So the protections and theadvances and the progress that has
been built is not just onelittle thing that can somehow be
overturned by an executiveorder, as we've seen in the chaotic
corruption of the last twoweeks, nor can it be overturned lightly
(16:57):
by the Supreme Court, even ifthe Supreme Court were inclined to
do that, which I actuallydon't think is the case.
So that's why I'm saying topeople, instead of sitting around
worrying about this small,scary, but very hypothetical and
not yet present question,focus on the things that are happening
(17:19):
and the things we can do rightnow to make the country better.
Sounds like great advice.
Again, our listeners always,they have questions, they always
think the worst, of course,and they think about if it would
go back to the Supreme Court.
Is it at all possible thateven the Respect of Marriage act
(17:40):
could be overturned?
The Respect for Marriage actfor Marriage Act.
So again, can things happen?
Yes, anything can happen.
And we know from history thatbad things do happen.
And we know from currentevents that bad things do happen.
But is that the most likelything to happen?
No.
And so again, instead ofsitting around spending hours and
(18:02):
hours and hours and workingyourself into a state over some hypothetical
that theoretically couldhappen, but why not just focus on
the things that are happening,the things that haven't happened,
and how we can make them nothappen and how we can fix what is
happening?
I think the way to get throughdifficult and dark periods, and we
have had to do that before.
(18:22):
We are not the first people toface threats to democracy, to gay
rights, to our community, topluralism, to dignity, to various
communities.
We're not the first ones toface scary, difficult times.
The way to get through them isnot by predicting your own doom and
sitting around wallowing.
The way to do it is to stayinformed, stay engaged, but also
(18:45):
turn some of that off and goengage with other people on actions
that will prevent the worstand achieve the better.
So people want to know also,would they be better off living in
a blue state or with strongprotections or, you know, stay put
(19:08):
where they are?
I know nothing has happened,and we understand that, but would
moving to a blue state with,like, those three states that enacted
marriage equality into their constitutions?
I believe it was California,Colorado, and Hawaii most recently.
Others have done it prior tothat, over the years.
(19:30):
Yeah, right.
Would moving to a blue statethat had those protections be better
off for the average LGBTQ person?
Well, there are certainly somestates that have much better law
and much better politicalcultures and much better levels of
(19:50):
overt public support and muchless dysfunctional political imbalance
and Republican power grabbingbeyond their levels of support.
There are some states that aremuch better than others when it comes
to those factors.
And so to the extent those arethe factors that matter most to you,
(20:12):
and they are certainly factorsthat shape the legal environment
in which people live, then,yes, the answer is, of course, there
are states that are betterthan others when it comes to those.
Indisha.
When it comes to those criteria.
But we also choose to livebased on a lot of reasons.
We all, we all make thesechoices and, you know, it has to
(20:32):
do with family and environmentand connections and friends and cost
of living and environment andactivities and so on.
And not everybody is as freeto choose or can as easily choose
as others.
People are tied in variousways, whether it's their jobs, their
families, their work, their.
Their.
(20:54):
Their levels of.
Of personal security, et cetera.
So it's, you know, it's easyto say when you look at just the
legal criteria.
Some states are, are, quote,better than others.
Some states are.
Are more protected than others.
And that is clearly true.
And if that's what you want toprioritize, then find a way to get
to another community, anotherstate, another job, another friend
(21:17):
circle, et cetera.
But that's not something thatone should just say lightly.
And people shouldn't have todo it.
And we don't have to think ofourselves as being in that place.
We can also fight for thecommunities we live in.
We can fight for where we are.
We are living throughdangerous, chaotic times, but we
(21:39):
also shouldn't make thingsworse than they are.
We don't have to imagine we'reimmediately the Handmaid's Tale.
We're immediately in Germanyin the 1930s and so on.
Can bad things happen?
Yes, but don't make them worsethan they are.
Don't surrender in advance.
Don't predict your own doom.
And so people have to decideon their own comfort level, their
(22:00):
own security level, their ownlevel of engagement, and their own
all these factors as they makethose decisions.
And I would say it's reallyimportant that we protect ourselves,
but it's also important thatwe work for the communities and people
and values that we care about.
And that has to happenthroughout the United States, even
if it won't happen evenly orlinearly throughout the United States.
(22:25):
So we'll try to get off thetopic of the doomsday, you know,
thing.
Wallowing.
Wallowing, right.
So how would you go aboutfighting back?
Tell our audience what youwould do or what people should do
in order to fight back?
(22:46):
Yeah, I think we need to callout the bad things that are happening.
We need to put pressure onthose who are doing bad things.
We need to encourage others tojoin us in those activities.
We need to convey a messageand a pathway of hope and determination
and the understanding that itwill take time and won't be fixed
(23:07):
overnight, but that there areactions and pushpoints, facts and
building that can happen,hopefully collectively, but to which
we all individually bring ourpart to get our country on the right
track.
And so that means that thoseof us who live in the states that
are further along and betterprotected and where the elected officials
(23:28):
are more responsible, we needto encourage them and help them to
make their voices heard, toblock bad nominations, to block bad
actions.
We need to, in those states,when we live in those states and
those communities, supportorganizations that are going to court,
that are providing safety netsand support to the communities under
assault.
We need to engage in thepolitical work of building up the
(23:53):
political parties, thepolitical voices who are going to
run races and engage in thelobbying and the political election
work, et cetera, buildingtoward the elections in order to
turn the tide.
And those who live on theground in the more challenged states
or the places where there areelected officials who are bad or
(24:15):
who are not doing what theyneed to do, they can play an even
more important role.
And those of us who live inother states need to support those
activities on the ground inthe purple states and in some of
the red states in order toflip some legislative seats, in order
to encourage local officialsand other officials to speak out
and to denounce in order tomake sure that attorneys, generally
(24:37):
general, are doing what theyneed to do and ultimately need to
take back control of Congressand take back control of the White
House and create a politicalenvironment in which the right elected
officials and the courts whoare appointed by them or shaped by
them will stand up to badstuff and do the right thing.
And, you know, as that littlepicture suggests, this won't happen
(25:01):
overnight and it won't happenin one step.
But don't be daunted by thefact that you can only do what you
can do, do what you can do,and know that you're supporting and
encouraging others to join youin that momentum and that work.
The election was a cataclysmicelection in terms of the consequences
we're seeing play out right now.
(25:22):
And it is going to get worsebefore it gets better.
And at the same time, weshouldn't overread what happened.
What happened was a narrowloss in a terrible political climate
for incumbents and forgovernment all across the world.
And that enabled antigovernment forces and anti equality
(25:46):
forces and anti justice forcesand forces, just a plain outright
corruption to seize powerright now.
But the environment in whichwe will engage them and the environment
in which they will next go towhere we will have the next election
will not have the samedynamics and burden and the aftermath
of the pandemic and thesourness of the economy and the terrible
(26:09):
weight on incumbents and so on.
So we need to push back wherewe can right now.
We need to call it out.
We need to make electedofficials own what is happening so
that they feel pressure, evenif not directly right now, as they
get closer to election.
And we need to build towardthe next set of elections in which
(26:30):
we try to take back power indistrict by district, legislature
by legislature, state bystate, and at the national level.
That's how it's going to change.
I know that doesn't soundlike, wow, that's an immediate recipe
for improvement.
Things do take time, but asthe story of the freedom to marry
(26:50):
suggests, where you began ourconversation, things do take time.
And yet we can achieve change.
We make things better.
It can happen, and that's howit's going to happen.
And it won't take 40 years.
This will take a few years tofix the damage that's being done
and to get things back on track.
But a bit of engagement canactually trigger a fair amount of
(27:11):
change when the moment is right.
And you never know exactlywhen that's going to be.
So you want to be out theredoing what you can as we go forward,
contributing, donating,speaking out, volunteering, sending
letters, visiting electedofficials, and don't bang your head
against the worst.
Go find the reachable but notyet reached.
(27:33):
Go find the places wherethings can be moved.
Don't focus on the worst allthe time.
Focus on the pathways forward.
That's great advice.
That's great advice.
Are there any particularorganizations or movements you recommend
supporting?
Yeah, absolutely.
To protect LGBTQ rights?
Absolutely.
We have the pillarorganizations in our own movement,
(27:55):
whether it be Lambda Legal orGLAD in Massachusetts, the aclu,
the national center forLesbian Rights.
We have democracyorganizations that are fighting hard
to defend our democracy and togo to court where necessary and to
engage politically and createthe climate and enlist experts and
(28:17):
marshal voices, whether it bein the military or in business, and
others who are protesting andspeaking out against the corruption
that we see in the Trumpadministration and enabled by the
Republicans.
So organizations like Stand UpAmerica or Indivisible or Protect
America or the or the manyother similar kinds of organizations
that people can join to bepart of a group and to get support
(28:40):
from those groups.
And it's important for peopleto engage and support the Democratic
Party.
Now, the Democratic Party isnot perfect.
You don't have to be a capitalD Democrat all the time.
But right now the DemocraticParty is a crucial, beleaguered vehicle
for small d democracy.
And unfortunately, they're theonly one of one of the two big parties
(29:03):
who, who can disagree on awhole bunch of things and disagreement
is legitimate.
But we.
But when a party isdisagreeing with democracy itself
and the rule of law itself,then it is a danger and it has to
be defeated.
And right now, the only majorparty that is not a danger to the
rule of law is the Democratic Party.
(29:24):
So I don't say that assomebody who believes you have to
be partisan, but sometimes youdo have to be partisan, and this
is one of those times.
So there are the communityorganizations, there are the broader
national organizations like aStand Up America or an aclu, et cetera.
(29:44):
There are the various causesand I'm sure many people listening
to this may particularly holdnear and dear to their heart, whether
it be women's rights orreproductive rights or immigrants
rights or Jewish support orMuslim support.
Whatever your particular causeand focus is, you can contribute
to the larger whole and standin solidarity with the other communities
(30:08):
and should also keep an eye ondemocratic political engagement also,
because while it's importantto support the non profits we support
and the various communities wesupport, the causes we support, right
now we have to support ourdemocracy itself.
And we have to mobilizepolitically as well as in the community
(30:28):
work that many of us care about.
Awesome.
As someone on the front linesof this fight, what gives you hope
for.
The future, for marriage,equality, for marriage?
Well, we continue to win morecountries around the world.
I mean, we've won countriesjust in the last few years as diverse
(30:49):
and as difficult and ascomplex as Nepal, Thailand, Estonia,
Greece.
I mean, I could go.
I could go through the, youknow, the most recent wins over the
last several years, let alonethe going from zero that we had to
(31:09):
start with.
These are not countries thatare all, shall we just say, Canada
or Sweden or Holland, et cetera.
And by the way, none of thosecountries were easy either.
So part of what gives me hopeis my own lived experience as an
activist and as somebody, as acitizen, knowing that it's always
been difficult, and it's oftenbeen difficult, dark and challenging,
(31:32):
and we've often been defeatedand lost, and yet we prevailed, yet
we engaged, yet we persisted,and yet we won.
So that's my own experience of activism.
And of course, that's alsotrue in the broader activism here
as a gay person, as somebodywho worked on AIDS and somebody who
worked for gay rights and setthe stage for the progress we already
(31:53):
have.
We live through terrible,terrible times, and they were terrible.
And right now is a terribletime for many people and a threatening
time for our democracy.
And yet there are pathways forward.
There are ways to succeed.
And it's not only my own livedexperience that tells me this.
It's also history that tellsme this.
(32:14):
And one of the things thatgives me great inspiration and instruction
is loving history, Readinghistory, being aware of history,
reading biography, seeing thestruggles that others have engaged
in, the.
The long time it's taken, thetime that people have had to stick
with it over difficultchallenges, et cetera, and knowing
(32:38):
that we are living in such atime, a historic, challenging time
right now.
And yet if we do our part andreach meet the moment, we can move
things forward.
So it's partly the inspirationof others, and it's partly the inspiration
from history.
And then it's the actualgratification that comes from being
(32:59):
part of making a difference,joining with other people who share
your values, who you maydisagree with on various things,
just as we disagree with ourfamilies, but we still love them.
You may disagree on this orthat, but you share a vision of the
world and values and decencyand dignity and inclusion and love.
And armed with all of that, agroup of us can make A difference.
(33:22):
And we've shown that before,and we have to show it now.
Now.
Excellent.
Is there any one thing thatyou want listeners to take away from
this conversation?
What would it be?
Stay hopeful.
Stay engaged.
Be part of the work.
It will take time.
It will get worse before itgets better, but we can make it better.
(33:44):
And the way to get throughthese difficult times is to, as I
said earlier, stay informed,but don't wallow.
Convey hope and determination.
Find others, engage with them.
Take action, build on thataction and then build on that action
and savor the progress andfind other joy in life to sustain
(34:07):
you as you keep doing that work.
That's great.
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to add, Evan?
No, I really think that is thekey point.
You know, that.
Don't react, don't overreactto everything.
Be clear about where you wantto go.
(34:27):
Be clear about what it's goingto take to get there.
Do your part.
Nobody can do everything.
No one person, no one cause,no one battle is going to do it all.
And yet together we can make change.
And the freedom to marry workthat I led and that we have, you
know, that we succeeded in isnow written up in many books as the
(34:50):
model of success, as proof ofchange, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera.
And one of those books gave avery interesting metaphor that I
always really liked.
After I had stopped doing thiswork and was able to start teaching
the work and looking at it,they talked about a vision of, imagine
this terrible edifice ofoppression and statue of a dictator
(35:14):
on the top, and these pillarsthat look immovable and fearful.
And people begin shaking thesepillars trying to topple that statue
and bring down this oppressive regime.
And in the beginning, they'reshaking and shaking, but nothing
seems to move.
And quote, nothing seems to behappening, and it's shaking and nothing
and shaking and nothing.
(35:34):
And then a pillar comes down,and then another pillar comes down,
and then the statue topples,the oppression is over.
And then people turn aroundand say, well, that was inevitable.
That was, you know, that that happened.
But what about next?
What about this?
What about that?
And the point of the metaphoris that there will be periods where
it seems like everything'sterrible, nothing's happening, et
(35:56):
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But don't keep sayingeverything's terrible and nothing's
happening.
Convey the opportunity tobring the peace, bring the building
block, join the group, do the work.
And that's how the pillarscome down, and that's how we succeed.
And history has proven that.
And our own lived experienceas gay people, as Americans, as people
(36:17):
of a certain age, as youngpeople who have their energy and
vision, our own experience andhistory tells us that this is how
we can make things better.
And that's the opportunity wehave right now.
Great advice.
Thank you so much, Evan, foryour time.
It was great.
You're my hero.
You always will be.
(36:37):
And thank you again.
We'll speak soon.
Thank you.
I look forward to seeing theactions that flow.
And there will be action.
Thank you for listening to theWhere Do Gays Retire?
Podcast.
If you enjoyed today'sepisode, please subscribe to our
podcast and consider making adonation by clicking the coffee cup
(36:58):
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each cup of coffee that youbuy costs $5 and goes towards helping
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Thank you for your continued support.
Welcome to the Where Do Gays Retire?
Podcast, where we help you inthe LGBTQ community find a safe and
affordable retirement place.
Join Mark Goldstein as heinterviews others who live in gay
friendly places around the globe.
Learn about the climate, costof living, health care, crime and
safety, and more.
(00:22):
Now here's your host, Mark Goldstein.
Today we have a different typeof question.
Is marriage equality in peril?
Evan Wolfson explains what'sat stake.
I'll introduce you to Evan.
Good afternoon, Evan.
Good to be with you.
(00:44):
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Appreciate it.
Happy to.
Evan Wolfson is a trailblazingattorney and a leading voice in the
fight for marriage equality.
Known as the architect of themarriage equality movement, he founded
and is president of Freedom to Marry.
This campaign was pivotal insecuring the landmark 2015 U.S.
(01:07):
supreme Court decision inObergefell vs.
Hodges, which legalized samesex marriage nationwide.
A graduate of Harvard LawSchool, Wolfson's advocacy for LGBTQ
rights began early in his career.
His work on Hawaii's bear vs.
Miike case set the stage fornational conversations about marriage
(01:32):
equality.
He has been recognized as oneof Time magazine's 100 Most Influential
People in the world and hasreceived numerous honors for his
contributions to civil rightsand social justice.
Today, Evan Wolfson continuesto inspire activism, consulting with
(01:53):
organizations and movementsworldwide to advance equality and
human rights.
His unwavering commitment tojustice and equality has made him
a respected leader and beaconof hope for the LGBTQ community and
my personal hero.
Thank you, Evan.
Thank you.
We'll start off with a coupleof questions.
(02:15):
Your introduction and background.
Can you start sharing yourrole in the fight for marriage equality
and why this issue has beencentral to your work?
And also for those who may notknow, could you briefly explain what
Obergefell vs Hodgesestablished and its significance
for LGBTQ rights in the United States?
(02:37):
That covers a lot of ground.
Well, I wrote my law schoolthesis back in 1983, arguing that
we should fight for thefreedom to marry and that we could
win the freedom to marry.
And of course, this was at atime when there was nowhere in the
world where same sex couplescould marry.
It was a very dark anddifficult time for gay people and
for advocates of democracy.
(02:59):
We were facing a very hostilepolitical administration.
We were facing a surgingreligious right wing movement.
We were facing, perhaps mostpointedly and shockingly, the cataclysm
of aids.
And people were dying allaround us.
(03:20):
Our friends, our colleagues,our fellow activists, our community.
And yet, at that time, I alsobelieved there was a pathway forward.
And so, as a student I wrotethis argument.
I was not the first person tothink of the idea that gay people
should be able to marry.
Part of what I was writingabout in that thesis was a wave of
cases that had been brought bypioneering activists and couples
(03:43):
around the country a decade orso earlier before me, that all sought
the freedom to marry.
And all of which were denied,all had been excluded.
In the immediate aftermath ofStonewall in 1969, these couples
around the country went tocourt seeking the freedom to marry,
which was denied them.
And they all lost, includingone of the cases that went all the
way up to the United StatesSupreme Court, which, like all the
(04:05):
other courts, got it wrong.
So I came into the story abouta decade later and was arguing that
we should not take that no foran answer.
And that scary and dark as thetimes were, we could help people
to rise and we could makethings better.
And that there was a way tomove forward.
And that we would do so bycombining all the methodologies of
(04:29):
change, to use a phrase fromMartin Luther King, that while litigation
was important, so waspolitical engagement, so was fundraising,
so was organizing, so wascommunity building, so was protest,
and so was persuasion.
Talking to people, notassuming that just because they weren't
with us that they couldn'tchange, that we could change hearts
and minds and thereby changethe law.
(04:51):
And I put this paper out intothe world and then moved to New York
after graduating law schooland began working.
And I had my day job and I hadmy nights and weekends as an activist,
and I was volunteering withLambda Legal and working with some
of the other organizationsduring these beleaguered battling
times.
And of course, what I wasadvocating for, along with doing
(05:15):
cases on the range ofconcerns, partnership, healthcare,
adoption, militarydiscrimination, employment discrimination,
aids, was that we should alsohave a marriage strategy.
And that what we were going toneed was a campaign in the midst
of this movement to drive astrategy and to leverage support
and to bring the pieces andmethodologies together to win.
(05:37):
And that became the campaignthat we eventually branded and organized
as Freedom to Marry, which wasaiming at creating the climate in
which legislative work, ballotmeasure work, persuasion, and litigation
could all happen in order toget us from 0 to 50 states, to get
(05:58):
us from zero to our country,to get us from zero to more countries
around the world.
And as the culmination of thatstruggle and long term battling and
campaign and many, manydefeats as well as victories in 2015,
we were finally able to havecreated the climate and then be able
(06:19):
to go to the Supreme Court top them and Persuade them and help
them to turn their no into a yes.
And so the culmination of thecampaign, after winning battles in
states and hearts and mindsand around water coolers and family
kitchen tables and so on, wasto succeed in persuading the Supreme
(06:41):
Court to end marriagediscrimination nationwide.
And that was the obergefelldecision in 2015, one of the many,
many court decisions that webegan by losing, losing, losing,
losing, and eventually wereable to turn into win by creating
the climate and doing themulti methodological work that enabled
(07:01):
that litigation to succeed.
And so in 2015, a decade ago,we won the freedom to marry nationwide.
We had already won in manystates, and now we brought the country
to national resolution.
And of course, the work hasn'tstopped there.
We've continued to harness thepower of the marriage conversation
and the marriage strategy andthe marriage model to advance the
(07:23):
other work that is urgent notonly in the United States, but in
many, many countries.
And we've gone from zerocountries in the world where same
sex couples could MARRY now to39 and counting.
More than a billion people nowlive in a freedom to marry country
worldwide, including ofcourse, our own.
And we've used that power ofthe conversation, that vocabulary
(07:46):
of love and commitment andfamily and dignity and inclusion
and freedom and pluralism toadvance not just marriage, but partnership
rights, protections againstdiscrimination, decriminalization,
first in the United States andthen in other countries where we
need to continue that work andalso advancing trans rights, youth
(08:09):
rights, student rights,inclusion, et cetera.
And so, as everybody knows, wehave made enormous progress and we've
changed the map in the face ofthe place of same sex couples and
gay people and trans people.
And the work is far from finished.
There's so much more to do,both to defend what we've won and
(08:30):
to continue advancing here inthe United States and in other countries.
When did you start this?
When.
How many decades did you, didyou go through?
I had done a few little thingshere and there, but my real beginning
as a long term activists waswith, with this paper, this thesis
(08:51):
in law school, which I wrotein 1983.
Okay, so, so it was Dec.
It was Decades of work for me.
I mean, it was from 1983 untilwe won in 2015 was 32 years of engaging
in one form or another.
And as I said, I was not thefirst, I was not the one who began
it all.
So it was more than fourdecades to achieve that transformation
(09:16):
and to win the freedom tomarry, and not just win the freedom
to marry, but to advance theplace of Gay and trans people here
in the United States and in other.
Other parts of the world.
I mean, people have tounderstand when.
When I was, you know, a youngperson and a student and an early
activist and so on, that wasat a time when it was criminal in
most places in the UnitedStates, as well as in many countries
(09:39):
around the world, as it stillis in some, to have sex, let alone
to have relationships.
It was a time when there werealmost no protections against discrimination
in employment and housing, inaccess to services, in treatment
by the government, and so on.
And we, you know, we stillhave a long way to go, but, of course,
we have massively changed that landscape.
(10:01):
And public support for gaypeople and for trans people and for
inclusion and for pluralismgrew massively as we engaged and
persuaded and battled andchanged hearts and minds.
When I wrote my law schoolthesis in 1983, 11% of the American
people supported the freedomto marry.
(10:22):
Now we're at 70% or more,including people who were formally
opposed, including olderpeople, Republicans, even conservatives,
people who identify asreligious, et cetera.
We have moved hearts and mindsand changed the law.
And the work is not finished.
And there's much more we needto do.
(10:43):
Right.
The conversation continues.
So tell us, how secure ismarriage equality under the law today?
Well, I think everybody isaware, and if you weren't aware two
weeks ago, you're aware now,that we are in a very dark and dangerous
(11:06):
time in the United States, notto mention several other countries,
as we see surging efforts atautocracy, oligarchy, power and wealth
grabs, chaos, corruption fromTrump, the Republicans who are enabling
him, the oligarchic forces whoare bankrolling him and sometimes
directly colluding with him.
(11:27):
And so this is a verydangerous time for not just for gay
people, but for democracyitself and for our American freedom,
our pluralism, our nationalsecurity, which is under assault
by these corrupt forces.
And so when you ask, howsecure is the freedom to marry?
(11:48):
In.
In one sense, nothing rightnow is secure in the sense of we
don't have to do anything andwe don't have to worry and we call,
just sit back and watch the chaos.
We have threats to everythingwe care about that are underway.
But if what you mean by thequestion is, should we be particularly
(12:10):
worried about losing thefreedom to marry we fought for and
won over decades, I would saythat's not the number one thing to
be focused on.
It's not the number one thingto worry about.
Anything can happen.
Bad things can happen.
There are bad things that are happening.
But there are enough badthings that are happening already
that we don't have to spendall our time trying to catalog more
(12:32):
bad things that might happen.
Let's just get to work andblock those bad things and move our
country in the right directionand organize and persuade and build
and reinvigorate our democracy.
And if we do that work, wewill prevent the other bad things
that haven't happened yet from happening.
So rather than, as I said,sitting around cataloging all the
(12:54):
bad things that could happen,it's much better to see the bad things
that are happening, engage,push back, and fix the crises that
are in the country already.
And how would you go aboutdoing that?
Well, let me just say, give alittle more detail on why I prioritize
(13:17):
that way.
We didn't win the freedom tomarry as a gift from the Supreme
Court.
We won it over decades ofengagement, struggle, battles, and
as I said earlier, multiplemethodologies, litigation here, legislation
there, work at the local levelin the states as well as at the federal
level, in Congress and in thecourts and in the Supreme Court.
(13:37):
So even if the Supreme Courtwere to do something terrible, that
doesn't erase everything elsethat happened, it doesn't change
all the advances that havebeen made in the states, at the federal
level, in Congress, in thehearts and minds, in the communities,
et cetera, it might makethings worse, it might make things
(13:59):
a little more challenging.
But this wasn't handed to usas a package, and it's not all going
to go away in one fell swoop,even if something bad were to happen
in this category.
So to be concrete about it,even just last November, this last
election, which narrowly butsignificantly went wrong at the level
(14:23):
of the presidency andCongress, we saw three states write
the freedom to marry intotheir constitutions.
We saw multiple jurisdictionsover the course of the last several
decades solidify theircommitment to dignity and equality
and love and freedom.
(14:45):
So even if the worst were tohappen, those bad things, those things
don't go away.
It moves us maybe slightlymore in a checkerboard direction
again, but it doesn't clearthe board.
It doesn't wipe everything away.
And of course, mostsignificantly, during the last couple
years, two years ago,actually, to be precise, President
Biden signed into law theRespect for Marriage act, which is
(15:08):
federal legislation that waspassed by a bipartisan vote of Congress
in 2022, affirming the freedomto marry and making clear that even
if the Supreme Court were tosay there is no nationwide guarantee
of the freedom to marry, thatif couples are legally married anywhere,
(15:32):
whether in the United Statesor in other countries, including
the 38 other countries that wewon, those marriages will be respected
by the federal government andmust be respected by states throughout
the United States.
So in other words, even if theSupreme Court did the worst thing,
something that maybe there aretwo votes on the Supreme Court to
(15:54):
do, but I doubt there arefive, and said we were wrong in saying
there's a national freedom tomarry, we're going to return the
question to the states.
Even if they did that, andeven if some states under Republican
domination and religious rightwing pressure pushed in the wrong
direction and tried to takeaway the freedom to marry, say in
(16:15):
Alabama, people in Alabamawould still have under this federal
legislation the ability to getmarried in Georgia or in New Mexico
or in California or New York,et cetera, et cetera.
And when they come home toAlabama, in that hypothetical, Alabama
(16:36):
would have to honor andrespect those marriages as marriages,
and so would the federal government.
So the protections and theadvances and the progress that has
been built is not just onelittle thing that can somehow be
overturned by an executiveorder, as we've seen in the chaotic
corruption of the last twoweeks, nor can it be overturned lightly
(16:57):
by the Supreme Court, even ifthe Supreme Court were inclined to
do that, which I actuallydon't think is the case.
So that's why I'm saying topeople, instead of sitting around
worrying about this small,scary, but very hypothetical and
not yet present question,focus on the things that are happening
(17:19):
and the things we can do rightnow to make the country better.
Sounds like great advice.
Again, our listeners always,they have questions, they always
think the worst, of course,and they think about if it would
go back to the Supreme Court.
Is it at all possible thateven the Respect of Marriage act
(17:40):
could be overturned?
The Respect for Marriage actfor Marriage Act.
So again, can things happen?
Yes, anything can happen.
And we know from history thatbad things do happen.
And we know from currentevents that bad things do happen.
But is that the most likelything to happen?
No.
And so again, instead ofsitting around spending hours and
(18:02):
hours and hours and workingyourself into a state over some hypothetical
that theoretically couldhappen, but why not just focus on
the things that are happening,the things that haven't happened,
and how we can make them nothappen and how we can fix what is
happening?
I think the way to get throughdifficult and dark periods, and we
have had to do that before.
(18:22):
We are not the first people toface threats to democracy, to gay
rights, to our community, topluralism, to dignity, to various
communities.
We're not the first ones toface scary, difficult times.
The way to get through them isnot by predicting your own doom and
sitting around wallowing.
The way to do it is to stayinformed, stay engaged, but also
(18:45):
turn some of that off and goengage with other people on actions
that will prevent the worstand achieve the better.
So people want to know also,would they be better off living in
a blue state or with strongprotections or, you know, stay put
(19:08):
where they are?
I know nothing has happened,and we understand that, but would
moving to a blue state with,like, those three states that enacted
marriage equality into their constitutions?
I believe it was California,Colorado, and Hawaii most recently.
Others have done it prior tothat, over the years.
(19:30):
Yeah, right.
Would moving to a blue statethat had those protections be better
off for the average LGBTQ person?
Well, there are certainly somestates that have much better law
and much better politicalcultures and much better levels of
(19:50):
overt public support and muchless dysfunctional political imbalance
and Republican power grabbingbeyond their levels of support.
There are some states that aremuch better than others when it comes
to those factors.
And so to the extent those arethe factors that matter most to you,
(20:12):
and they are certainly factorsthat shape the legal environment
in which people live, then,yes, the answer is, of course, there
are states that are betterthan others when it comes to those.
Indisha.
When it comes to those criteria.
But we also choose to livebased on a lot of reasons.
We all, we all make thesechoices and, you know, it has to
(20:32):
do with family and environmentand connections and friends and cost
of living and environment andactivities and so on.
And not everybody is as freeto choose or can as easily choose
as others.
People are tied in variousways, whether it's their jobs, their
families, their work, their.
Their.
(20:54):
Their levels of.
Of personal security, et cetera.
So it's, you know, it's easyto say when you look at just the
legal criteria.
Some states are, are, quote,better than others.
Some states are.
Are more protected than others.
And that is clearly true.
And if that's what you want toprioritize, then find a way to get
to another community, anotherstate, another job, another friend
(21:17):
circle, et cetera.
But that's not something thatone should just say lightly.
And people shouldn't have todo it.
And we don't have to think ofourselves as being in that place.
We can also fight for thecommunities we live in.
We can fight for where we are.
We are living throughdangerous, chaotic times, but we
(21:39):
also shouldn't make thingsworse than they are.
We don't have to imagine we'reimmediately the Handmaid's Tale.
We're immediately in Germanyin the 1930s and so on.
Can bad things happen?
Yes, but don't make them worsethan they are.
Don't surrender in advance.
Don't predict your own doom.
And so people have to decideon their own comfort level, their
(22:00):
own security level, their ownlevel of engagement, and their own
all these factors as they makethose decisions.
And I would say it's reallyimportant that we protect ourselves,
but it's also important thatwe work for the communities and people
and values that we care about.
And that has to happenthroughout the United States, even
if it won't happen evenly orlinearly throughout the United States.
(22:25):
So we'll try to get off thetopic of the doomsday, you know,
thing.
Wallowing.
Wallowing, right.
So how would you go aboutfighting back?
Tell our audience what youwould do or what people should do
in order to fight back?
(22:46):
Yeah, I think we need to callout the bad things that are happening.
We need to put pressure onthose who are doing bad things.
We need to encourage others tojoin us in those activities.
We need to convey a messageand a pathway of hope and determination
and the understanding that itwill take time and won't be fixed
(23:07):
overnight, but that there areactions and pushpoints, facts and
building that can happen,hopefully collectively, but to which
we all individually bring ourpart to get our country on the right
track.
And so that means that thoseof us who live in the states that
are further along and betterprotected and where the elected officials
(23:28):
are more responsible, we needto encourage them and help them to
make their voices heard, toblock bad nominations, to block bad
actions.
We need to, in those states,when we live in those states and
those communities, supportorganizations that are going to court,
that are providing safety netsand support to the communities under
assault.
We need to engage in thepolitical work of building up the
(23:53):
political parties, thepolitical voices who are going to
run races and engage in thelobbying and the political election
work, et cetera, buildingtoward the elections in order to
turn the tide.
And those who live on theground in the more challenged states
or the places where there areelected officials who are bad or
(24:15):
who are not doing what theyneed to do, they can play an even
more important role.
And those of us who live inother states need to support those
activities on the ground inthe purple states and in some of
the red states in order toflip some legislative seats, in order
to encourage local officialsand other officials to speak out
and to denounce in order tomake sure that attorneys, generally
(24:37):
general, are doing what theyneed to do and ultimately need to
take back control of Congressand take back control of the White
House and create a politicalenvironment in which the right elected
officials and the courts whoare appointed by them or shaped by
them will stand up to badstuff and do the right thing.
And, you know, as that littlepicture suggests, this won't happen
(25:01):
overnight and it won't happenin one step.
But don't be daunted by thefact that you can only do what you
can do, do what you can do,and know that you're supporting and
encouraging others to join youin that momentum and that work.
The election was a cataclysmicelection in terms of the consequences
we're seeing play out right now.
(25:22):
And it is going to get worsebefore it gets better.
And at the same time, weshouldn't overread what happened.
What happened was a narrowloss in a terrible political climate
for incumbents and forgovernment all across the world.
And that enabled antigovernment forces and anti equality
(25:46):
forces and anti justice forcesand forces, just a plain outright
corruption to seize powerright now.
But the environment in whichwe will engage them and the environment
in which they will next go towhere we will have the next election
will not have the samedynamics and burden and the aftermath
of the pandemic and thesourness of the economy and the terrible
(26:09):
weight on incumbents and so on.
So we need to push back wherewe can right now.
We need to call it out.
We need to make electedofficials own what is happening so
that they feel pressure, evenif not directly right now, as they
get closer to election.
And we need to build towardthe next set of elections in which
(26:30):
we try to take back power indistrict by district, legislature
by legislature, state bystate, and at the national level.
That's how it's going to change.
I know that doesn't soundlike, wow, that's an immediate recipe
for improvement.
Things do take time, but asthe story of the freedom to marry
(26:50):
suggests, where you began ourconversation, things do take time.
And yet we can achieve change.
We make things better.
It can happen, and that's howit's going to happen.
And it won't take 40 years.
This will take a few years tofix the damage that's being done
and to get things back on track.
But a bit of engagement canactually trigger a fair amount of
(27:11):
change when the moment is right.
And you never know exactlywhen that's going to be.
So you want to be out theredoing what you can as we go forward,
contributing, donating,speaking out, volunteering, sending
letters, visiting electedofficials, and don't bang your head
against the worst.
Go find the reachable but notyet reached.
(27:33):
Go find the places wherethings can be moved.
Don't focus on the worst allthe time.
Focus on the pathways forward.
That's great advice.
That's great advice.
Are there any particularorganizations or movements you recommend
supporting?
Yeah, absolutely.
To protect LGBTQ rights?
Absolutely.
We have the pillarorganizations in our own movement,
(27:55):
whether it be Lambda Legal orGLAD in Massachusetts, the aclu,
the national center forLesbian Rights.
We have democracyorganizations that are fighting hard
to defend our democracy and togo to court where necessary and to
engage politically and createthe climate and enlist experts and
(28:17):
marshal voices, whether it bein the military or in business, and
others who are protesting andspeaking out against the corruption
that we see in the Trumpadministration and enabled by the
Republicans.
So organizations like Stand UpAmerica or Indivisible or Protect
America or the or the manyother similar kinds of organizations
that people can join to bepart of a group and to get support
(28:40):
from those groups.
And it's important for peopleto engage and support the Democratic
Party.
Now, the Democratic Party isnot perfect.
You don't have to be a capitalD Democrat all the time.
But right now the DemocraticParty is a crucial, beleaguered vehicle
for small d democracy.
And unfortunately, they're theonly one of one of the two big parties
(29:03):
who, who can disagree on awhole bunch of things and disagreement
is legitimate.
But we.
But when a party isdisagreeing with democracy itself
and the rule of law itself,then it is a danger and it has to
be defeated.
And right now, the only majorparty that is not a danger to the
rule of law is the Democratic Party.
(29:24):
So I don't say that assomebody who believes you have to
be partisan, but sometimes youdo have to be partisan, and this
is one of those times.
So there are the communityorganizations, there are the broader
national organizations like aStand Up America or an aclu, et cetera.
(29:44):
There are the various causesand I'm sure many people listening
to this may particularly holdnear and dear to their heart, whether
it be women's rights orreproductive rights or immigrants
rights or Jewish support orMuslim support.
Whatever your particular causeand focus is, you can contribute
to the larger whole and standin solidarity with the other communities
(30:08):
and should also keep an eye ondemocratic political engagement also,
because while it's importantto support the non profits we support
and the various communities wesupport, the causes we support, right
now we have to support ourdemocracy itself.
And we have to mobilizepolitically as well as in the community
(30:28):
work that many of us care about.
Awesome.
As someone on the front linesof this fight, what gives you hope
for.
The future, for marriage,equality, for marriage?
Well, we continue to win morecountries around the world.
I mean, we've won countriesjust in the last few years as diverse
(30:49):
and as difficult and ascomplex as Nepal, Thailand, Estonia,
Greece.
I mean, I could go.
I could go through the, youknow, the most recent wins over the
last several years, let alonethe going from zero that we had to
(31:09):
start with.
These are not countries thatare all, shall we just say, Canada
or Sweden or Holland, et cetera.
And by the way, none of thosecountries were easy either.
So part of what gives me hopeis my own lived experience as an
activist and as somebody, as acitizen, knowing that it's always
been difficult, and it's oftenbeen difficult, dark and challenging,
(31:32):
and we've often been defeatedand lost, and yet we prevailed, yet
we engaged, yet we persisted,and yet we won.
So that's my own experience of activism.
And of course, that's alsotrue in the broader activism here
as a gay person, as somebodywho worked on AIDS and somebody who
worked for gay rights and setthe stage for the progress we already
(31:53):
have.
We live through terrible,terrible times, and they were terrible.
And right now is a terribletime for many people and a threatening
time for our democracy.
And yet there are pathways forward.
There are ways to succeed.
And it's not only my own livedexperience that tells me this.
It's also history that tellsme this.
(32:14):
And one of the things thatgives me great inspiration and instruction
is loving history, Readinghistory, being aware of history,
reading biography, seeing thestruggles that others have engaged
in, the.
The long time it's taken, thetime that people have had to stick
with it over difficultchallenges, et cetera, and knowing
(32:38):
that we are living in such atime, a historic, challenging time
right now.
And yet if we do our part andreach meet the moment, we can move
things forward.
So it's partly the inspirationof others, and it's partly the inspiration
from history.
And then it's the actualgratification that comes from being
(32:59):
part of making a difference,joining with other people who share
your values, who you maydisagree with on various things,
just as we disagree with ourfamilies, but we still love them.
You may disagree on this orthat, but you share a vision of the
world and values and decencyand dignity and inclusion and love.
And armed with all of that, agroup of us can make A difference.
(33:22):
And we've shown that before,and we have to show it now.
Now.
Excellent.
Is there any one thing thatyou want listeners to take away from
this conversation?
What would it be?
Stay hopeful.
Stay engaged.
Be part of the work.
It will take time.
It will get worse before itgets better, but we can make it better.
(33:44):
And the way to get throughthese difficult times is to, as I
said earlier, stay informed,but don't wallow.
Convey hope and determination.
Find others, engage with them.
Take action, build on thataction and then build on that action
and savor the progress andfind other joy in life to sustain
(34:07):
you as you keep doing that work.
That's great.
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to add, Evan?
No, I really think that is thekey point.
You know, that.
Don't react, don't overreactto everything.
Be clear about where you wantto go.
(34:27):
Be clear about what it's goingto take to get there.
Do your part.
Nobody can do everything.
No one person, no one cause,no one battle is going to do it all.
And yet together we can make change.
And the freedom to marry workthat I led and that we have, you
know, that we succeeded in isnow written up in many books as the
(34:50):
model of success, as proof ofchange, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera.
And one of those books gave avery interesting metaphor that I
always really liked.
After I had stopped doing thiswork and was able to start teaching
the work and looking at it,they talked about a vision of, imagine
this terrible edifice ofoppression and statue of a dictator
(35:14):
on the top, and these pillarsthat look immovable and fearful.
And people begin shaking thesepillars trying to topple that statue
and bring down this oppressive regime.
And in the beginning, they'reshaking and shaking, but nothing
seems to move.
And quote, nothing seems to behappening, and it's shaking and nothing
and shaking and nothing.
(35:34):
And then a pillar comes down,and then another pillar comes down,
and then the statue topples,the oppression is over.
And then people turn aroundand say, well, that was inevitable.
That was, you know, that that happened.
But what about next?
What about this?
What about that?
And the point of the metaphoris that there will be periods where
it seems like everything'sterrible, nothing's happening, et
(35:56):
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But don't keep sayingeverything's terrible and nothing's
happening.
Convey the opportunity tobring the peace, bring the building
block, join the group, do the work.
And that's how the pillarscome down, and that's how we succeed.
And history has proven that.
And our own lived experienceas gay people, as Americans, as people
(36:17):
of a certain age, as youngpeople who have their energy and
vision, our own experience andhistory tells us that this is how
we can make things better.
And that's the opportunity wehave right now.
Great advice.
Thank you so much, Evan, foryour time.
It was great.
You're my hero.
You always will be.
(36:37):
And thank you again.
We'll speak soon.
Thank you.
I look forward to seeing theactions that flow.
And there will be action.
Thank you for listening to theWhere Do Gays Retire?
Podcast.
If you enjoyed today'sepisode, please subscribe to our
podcast and consider making adonation by clicking the coffee cup
(36:58):
on any page at www.wheredogaysretire.com.
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