May 1, 2025 • 20 mins
Thanks to Author Neal Lipschutz for coming on the podcast to talk about his debut thriller, No Write Way to Die, available anywhere books are sold July 8, 2025.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls and you'relistening to when I Left Off a
bookish podcast and today I'mjoined by the author of no Right
Way to Die, neil Lipschitz.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So the first question that I always ask every author
is what are you currentlyreading right now?
And just in case you're writingand not really reading a lot,
are there any authors thatreally inspire you?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, I keep reading, even when I'm writing.
Sometimes I vary the type ofbook, but I'm a pretty eclectic
reader in general, bothnonfiction and fiction.
Obviously I do like mystery andsuspense novels.
I also read a lot of literarynovels, but the one I'm reading
right now, which is prettyintriguing it's not a new book,
it's called the Last Policemanby Ben Winters.
(00:54):
I think it's about 12 or 13years old and it's an
interesting concept because he'sgot sort of this straight arrow
detective trying to investigatewhat he thinks is a murder.
But the backdrop is thatthere's a giant asteroid
hurtling toward the earth and insome number of months the
entire earth will likely bedestroyed.
(01:15):
So it's really about how dopeople behave when they know
that inevitability, it seemslike, is approaching them.
I haven't finished it yet so Idon't know exactly what happens,
but it's a very intriguingconcept concept and it's pretty
well done.
That's what I'm reading now.
I recently finished the memoirby Radon Cotter, who was for a
long time the editor of VanityFair, and he talks you know,
(01:37):
it's kind of fun for me becausehe it wasn't all that long ago,
but it was a bunch of years agothat you know sort of the heyday
of print magazines and whatkind of life the editor of one
of those big magazines led.
So that's the two most recentthings I've been reading.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Nice.
Where do you tend to find bookrecommendations whenever you're
trying to decide what to readnext?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's a great question.
They seem to come from a bunchof places, not so much from
other people, but sort of likeyou know, I might be reading a
newsletter about writing andsomebody will say this book is
terrific.
Sometimes just reading bookreviews which I like to do and
sometimes interesting like this,this last policeman I actually
was reading a book not too longago about the craft of mystery
(02:20):
and suspense writing andsomebody called that out as just
saying that it was an excellentbook.
So I said, oh, I might as wellsee what that's about.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
And kind of speaking of reviews.
Do you plan to read reviews foryour book?
Are you going to stay off ofGoodreads or any of those sites?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, that's a great question, you know since it's a
debut for me, a debut novel, adebut book.
I really haven't thought thatthrough.
I guess I'll probably take alook at some point.
I would think.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, I've heard a lot of authors.
They're very much like one wayor the other.
They either completely stay offand they will not look at
reviews, or they're going toread all of them and, you know,
really dive in.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So yeah, I mean, I think it's easy to say now, but
I do think I'm at the pointwhere I understand not everyone
is going to love the book.
I'm at the point where Iunderstand not everyone is going
to love the book.
So people have different tastesand different views, so I do
expect that there'll be avariety of opinions.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I will say that I was in.
I've been in a thriller slumpfor probably like the past year.
Honestly, it's been kind ofiffy and I really enjoyed this
book and it kept me entertained.
I was telling a friend about itand they were like you got to
tell me who the murderer is.
I need to know.
And I was like I have a guessand I was actually right, but it
was a close one, I wasn't sure.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah Well, thank you, and I'm glad to hear that If
there was some uncertainty, thatwas part of the goal, so that's
good to know.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
That's the getting to decide who you think the killer
is.
Yeah, exactly what can you tellus about your current work in
progress?
So is this book a series or isit a standalone?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It is a series and I've actually pretty much
completed the next couple ofbooks in the series.
But what I'm actually puttingthe final touches on now is a
very different kind of mysteryin that it's got very different
characters and the setting'svery different.
So it takes place on an islandin Greece, a Greek island, and
(04:11):
the protagonist is a young PhDstudent in archaeology who's
there for a fellowship and shewinds up becoming an amateur
detective when someone she knowsdies mysteriously.
So that's kind of verydifferent and I've had fun with
that.
That's almost done, and thenI'll kind of go back to the
number two and number threebooks in the series that no
(04:32):
Right Way to Die sets off andsort of try to put the final
touches on those.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
How did the idea for this new one come to you?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I was on a Greek island for vacation a couple of
years back and not very welleducated in, but interested in
ancient Greece and thecivilization and the archaeology
and how much continues to bediscovered, you know, from so
many years ago, and some of theremarkable sophistication of
both the way people lived andtheir art and their dwellings
(05:03):
from even 1600 BC or something.
So all that was in my mind andsort of not quite sure exactly
how.
But then when I got back homeafter a little while I just
thought oh, wouldn't it beinteresting if we set a couple
of young Americans down there inthat setting and both
interacting with people who arenative to the island and with
(05:24):
archaeology, which I had to do abit of research on and see what
happens.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
That sounds really interesting.
You may not be able to tell methis, but because you've already
written the other books in thatseries and now you're working
on this one, will you have anadditional release out next year
?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I hope so.
Not completely sure, but Ibelieve that there'll be the
number two book in the seriesthat follows this one in about a
year, so that would be a plan,yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Okay, wow, that's really quick.
So did you write this wholeseries before you even started
querying?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I didn't write the whole series and I frankly think
that there's more to go in theseries.
I mean, I think where I amisn't the end At some point.
Obviously there will be, but Ido think there's more to go.
Before I even started thinkingabout trying to get this
published, I was pretty wellinto at least the basics of what
(06:16):
number two would look like thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
But, yay, that's awesome that we get the next
book in the series one up in ayear, because I know all those
deadlines are super tight.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, in about a year , but this one isn't quite real
yet, so it's a lot to still goon this one.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Speaking a little bit more about no Right Way to Die.
Can you tell us a little bitmore kind of about your author
journey and how it led you frombeing the Deputy Editor-in-Chief
at the Wall Street Journal tobecoming an author?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, so I was a journalist for a very long time
and it was a super rewardingcareer, and I was at Dow Jones,
which is the parent company ofthe Wall Street Journal, both at
their newswire, dow JonesNewswires, and the journal, for
decades and, as I said, I reallyenjoyed it and I felt really
quite blessed to have had thatcareer.
And near you know, near the endof it, though, I did think I
(07:06):
would like to still do somethingdifferent, and I have written
some short fiction over theyears, never really had too much
time to do it, but some shortstories, some fictional short
stories, and I just thought thatnow that I have the opportunity
, you know, let me give it a try, and I've always been a big fan
of mystery suspense and I justthought that would be a kind of
(07:27):
a reasonable genre to attempt.
So I just feel very fortunatethat I'm in a position where I'm
still excited about it and Ihave the luxury I guess is the
word of turning my fullattention to it now, after a
career in journalism.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And I'm sure a short stories kind of helped.
But was it really difficult,Because the writing styles are
so different from you know, likejournalistic, to pulling it out
in a novel?
It's just like night and day.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I know, absolutely, absolutely very different, but
it's, you know, at the same time, it's very freeing to write
fiction and I've read enoughover the years to know.
Obviously you do want to seethings from a character or
multiple characters point ofview and it's very subjective in
what their view of the world isand how they justify some of
their actions, even if they'renot always admirable actions,
(08:18):
you know.
In that sense it wasn't thatdifficult because it was just a
different way to approach thingsand one that I was eager to try
.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And what made no Right Way to Die the story that
you had to tell first.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting because I first did
think of it as a short storyidea that I just imagined these
two men who grew up in sort ofthe same Brooklyn neighborhood
and whose lives went in verydifferent directions and then in
middle age that they come intoconflict.
And once I started writing thatreally as a short story, a
couple of other kind of bigideas occurred to me.
(08:50):
Writing that really as a shortstory, a couple of other kind of
big ideas occurred to me and Irealized, well, I said, wow,
this might have sort of the legs, if you will, to be that one
big story or, you know, haveenough to make it into a full
novel.
So it was really just startingwith that idea of these two men
growing up in the same place butturning out rather differently
but maybe at the same timesharing some characteristics,
and then saying, wow, you know,if this happened and this
(09:13):
happened, it's a bigger storyand at that point it's a novel.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And as you're kind of taking this from what you
thought was a short story andpulling it out into a novel,
what does your plotting processkind of look like for a thriller
?
I would assume that you're aplotter because I mean, I guess
you could pants a thriller but Ifeel like that would be so hard
(09:46):
.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's funny because, as I was,
there's that distinction betweenpeople who plot meticulously
and those who maybe just startwith a scene in their mind or
one character in their mind andsort of let it go from there.
And you know, I've read thisand I think it's my own
experience bears it out.
For what that's worth is thatprobably most writers are in the
middle, so not really just oneor the other.
(10:09):
So I did start with a basicoutline, but it wasn't
meticulous, it wasn't post-itson the wall or anything like
that.
And then, as I went along, Ireally did both cut and add
things.
So the novel changed, but alsothe outline changed Even when it
was done, in other words, evenafter I had written the end, let
me put it that way I went backand I took out some scenes, I
(10:30):
added some scenes, so it waskind of an ongoing, it was both,
but it certainly started with abasic outline.
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So how do you balance kind of the realism and the
entertainment of a thriller,Because your story is very
realistic but it's entertainingthroughout?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah, well, thank you , thanks for saying that.
I you know my view like I tryto think of myself as a reader.
As I said, I really do enjoymysteries and suspense for a
long time, but I've always beenone of those people who have
enjoyed, I think, most of allthe interplay of complex
characters.
You know, yes, the plot'simportant, for sure, and you do
want to be, especially if it'skind of an organic twist, it
(11:08):
really does seem realistic.
I've always cared more about thecharacters and I look at it as
want to be kind of quote-unquoterealistic.
But you don't have to be real,right, as long as readers like
myself, certainly, and I thinkmost readers are willing to
suspend disbelief to a degree,you know it's like, yeah, that's
part of the fun of reading thiskind of book.
(11:28):
I think you heighten everything, right, so it's a world, that
things should be consistentwithin themselves, but they
don't have to be real life andfrankly, I think they shouldn't
be real life because you justwant to heighten and of course
you also which happens in a lotof thrillers, you know, you drop
people into, just like,situations that are just anxiety
driven and extraordinarilydifficult situations to see, and
(11:52):
often they react based on thekind of people they were before
the crisis, kind of.
If you see what I'm getting at.
So I think you can be realisticand really not worry about
truly being real.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yes, I think, like you said, consistency is key
because, yeah, I've read acouple lately that I'm like
they're so out there I almostcan't follow it.
I'm like this, this is a lot,this is not, doesn't make sense.
So, yeah, that consistencymakes a lot of sense.
So what was the biggestchallenge when writing this?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
well, first, because I've never really done one
before.
I was concerned there wasn'tenough going on to make it
really compelling.
Because, as I I said, I hadthis tendency, I think, to worry
about the characters and thecharacterizations and the
complexity of human beings, butat the same time I wanted a lot
to happen.
That was a challenge, you know,make sure a lot happens.
(12:44):
And then, at a much more minorlevel, when it was all done, I
went back and just said, ok, ithappens over the course of about
a year.
Have the seasons changed in theway they do in New York?
You know, just to make surethat, as we talked about that
consistency, that I sort ofdidn't miss something, that all
of a sudden something happenedand it was three months later
and readers kind of caughtunawares and said wait, wait, a
(13:07):
second.
You know that.
How does that jive with this?
So is that kind of verypractical?
Does the timeline make sense?
And then, as I'm writing,saying, is there enough going on
to make it, I hope, compelling?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
What was your favorite scene that you can't
wait for readers to get to?
That's kind of going to be hardwithout spoiling.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
but you can be a little bit vague be hard without
spoiling, but you can be alittle bit vague.
Yeah, I mean, actually I thinkI can do that without spoiling
anything because, at least to me, some of the scenes that I
liked the most were ones wherewe go back to the protagonist
Scott Morgan's childhood andteenagehood and some of the
things that happened there thathe experiences I think are
(13:49):
pretty at least for me prettygood scenes in their own right,
but also give the reader, Ithink, a pretty good sense of
what were at least theinfluences that turned him into
the person he becomes.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So hopefully his actions are understandable, even
if they're not always somethingpeople would approve of.
I mean, at the end of the day,he's doing what he feels he has
to do to protect his family.
Yeah, so if no Right Way to Diewere adapted into a film or a
TV series, who would you cast asScott, Sarah and Meredith?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
That's fun to think about.
Though it's hard to do these,yeah, that's not my forte, but I
would say, maybe for Scott,maybe George Clooney, for
Meredith, maybe Nicole Kidman.
Sarah might be a little harder.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I couldn't think of someone for Sarah but for Scott.
I was kind of thinking, maybelike Bruce Willis, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, it was kind of in the
same sort of broad bracket.
Yeah, I think for Sarah.
Maybe Saoirse Ronan I mean, I'mpronouncing her name correctly,
her first name, Maybe you knowshe's such an excellent actor
anyway, just in general thatname came to mind.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I could see that.
Yeah, it's a fun question, butsometimes kind of hard when
you're imagining it in your head.
Do you just kind of see likegeneral facial features but not
like a specific person?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, yeah exactly, exactly, yeah, or a person that
doesn't exist.
Frankly, you know what I mean.
Like I sort of see someone butit's not.
It's not someone who exists.
That's, I think, the case here.
(15:29):
So it's like you say when youtry to say match it up with real
human beings who are actors.
It's sure you know, and I thinkthat happens anytime.
Obviously it becomes adifferent medium if a book is
adapted and it takes on a wholedifferent flavor because you
have actors interpreting it.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And the other thing is that with an actor it's not
even just their physicalcharacteristics, it's kind of
their tone of voice and theirpersonality and normally kind of
sometimes what they've beentypecasted in.
So yeah, it adds a whole notherlayer of trying to find the
right person.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
No, that's a great.
That's a great point ExactlyBecause then you have viewers,
they remember the actor from aparticular film or particular
television series and, yeah,then they sort of superimpose
their own views.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
So how would you describe your experience with
traditional publishing so far?
And kind of like, once yousigned your contract, what did
the process generally look likefrom there?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, I mean, as I said, it's my first time and I'm
with a very small publishingcompany.
They have distributionagreements with the larger
publisher, but I'm not sure myexperience is representative.
But I mean, it's essentiallyrun by two people, so the nice
part about that is thatcommunications is very easy.
You know, there's no big groupthere to deal with, it's just
(16:34):
the two partners, and they'veboth been excellent to deal with
.
And I also felt, having been aneditor myself for many years, I
felt that I received a verygood edit of the book.
That made it a stronger book.
So I, you know, as an editormyself, at least in a previous
life, I appreciated that thebook came out better for the
edit.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
How many rounds of revisions did you go through?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
That's a great question.
I'd say at least 10.
Yeah, I'd say probably 10, youknow, and some of them were very
small things.
Yeah, you know, I'd saysomewhere in the area of 10.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I'm sure it's hard to get an exact number because,
like you said, there are somesmall ones or, like you might
read through it and change somethings, or they might read
through it and change somethings.
So it's not like a full reworkevery time or anything that's
right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
And yes, some of the revisions are bigger than others
.
But yeah, that's right, that'sright.
And yes, some of the revisionsare bigger than others.
But yeah, you know, you keeplooking at it, you keep looking
at it.
I did find, you know and I'veread this too as advice and it
really doesn't make sense, ifyou have the luxury of stepping
away for a week really helps.
You know, it's very hard toread a whole novel and then the
next day started again.
You know when you're lookingfor finding either small things
(17:41):
you'd rather improve or eventhings like oh, I've used this
word too many times, let me usea synonym that kind of thing,
and I've definitely heard thatfrom other authors too.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But I'm sure that once you've looked at it so many
times, it's hard and you kindof are almost blind to you know
little things.
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think that time you can, even if you're still
working, just work on somethingelse for a while.
I think that real, I think thatreally helps.
You know, if you can get alittle distance, even if you
obviously know the story, youcan come at least at some of the
language issues with a bit of afresh perspective.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Were you already working on book two while book
one was in edits?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yes, yes, and that was helpful because, like I said
, you know, if it's during sortof downtime or time that I would
like to say let me wait a fewdays so I can have a fresh
perspective, I had somethingelse to work on, and is there a
message line or moment in noRight Way to Die that you're
particularly proud of, or a partthat early readers kind of
(18:39):
quote back to?
so far, nothing in a particularline or scene and I don't know
if proud is the right word.
I hope that people come awaywith that.
A lot of what happens in thebook there's several different
ways to look at it, that there'san ambiguity about what
happened.
Was this character'sperspective correct on it, or
(19:01):
that character's perspectivecorrect on it, or that
character's perspective correcton it?
And what's one of thecharacters just trying to
justify their actions tothemselves?
So if there's a sense ofambiguity about what happens and
a few different kinds of waysto look at it, I would be happy
that if readers come away withthat sense.
I think human behavior iscomplicated and complex enough
(19:23):
that there's always someambiguity.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And kind of how one character's actions just tumble
and create a lot of issues forall the other characters and
like ripple out throughout thebook.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Exactly right and you know the whole thing right.
You take a certain action andthere's all these unintended
consequences.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Thank you so much for being on the show and thanks
for listening to when I Left Off.
The bookish podcast no RightWay to Die releases July 8th and
you can pick up your copywherever books are sold.
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls and you'relistening to when I Left Off a
bookish podcast and today I'mjoined by the author of no Right
Way to Die, neil Lipschitz.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So the first question that I always ask every author
is what are you currentlyreading right now?
And just in case you're writingand not really reading a lot,
are there any authors thatreally inspire you?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, I keep reading, even when I'm writing.
Sometimes I vary the type ofbook, but I'm a pretty eclectic
reader in general, bothnonfiction and fiction.
Obviously I do like mystery andsuspense novels.
I also read a lot of literarynovels, but the one I'm reading
right now, which is prettyintriguing it's not a new book,
it's called the Last Policemanby Ben Winters.
(00:54):
I think it's about 12 or 13years old and it's an
interesting concept because he'sgot sort of this straight arrow
detective trying to investigatewhat he thinks is a murder.
But the backdrop is thatthere's a giant asteroid
hurtling toward the earth and insome number of months the
entire earth will likely bedestroyed.
(01:15):
So it's really about how dopeople behave when they know
that inevitability, it seemslike, is approaching them.
I haven't finished it yet so Idon't know exactly what happens,
but it's a very intriguingconcept concept and it's pretty
well done.
That's what I'm reading now.
I recently finished the memoirby Radon Cotter, who was for a
long time the editor of VanityFair, and he talks you know,
(01:37):
it's kind of fun for me becausehe it wasn't all that long ago,
but it was a bunch of years agothat you know sort of the heyday
of print magazines and whatkind of life the editor of one
of those big magazines led.
So that's the two most recentthings I've been reading.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Nice.
Where do you tend to find bookrecommendations whenever you're
trying to decide what to readnext?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's a great question.
They seem to come from a bunchof places, not so much from
other people, but sort of likeyou know, I might be reading a
newsletter about writing andsomebody will say this book is
terrific.
Sometimes just reading bookreviews which I like to do and
sometimes interesting like this,this last policeman I actually
was reading a book not too longago about the craft of mystery
(02:20):
and suspense writing andsomebody called that out as just
saying that it was an excellentbook.
So I said, oh, I might as wellsee what that's about.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
And kind of speaking of reviews.
Do you plan to read reviews foryour book?
Are you going to stay off ofGoodreads or any of those sites?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, that's a great question, you know since it's a
debut for me, a debut novel, adebut book.
I really haven't thought thatthrough.
I guess I'll probably take alook at some point.
I would think.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, I've heard a lot of authors.
They're very much like one wayor the other.
They either completely stay offand they will not look at
reviews, or they're going toread all of them and, you know,
really dive in.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So yeah, I mean, I think it's easy to say now, but
I do think I'm at the pointwhere I understand not everyone
is going to love the book.
I'm at the point where Iunderstand not everyone is going
to love the book.
So people have different tastesand different views, so I do
expect that there'll be avariety of opinions.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I will say that I was in.
I've been in a thriller slumpfor probably like the past year.
Honestly, it's been kind ofiffy and I really enjoyed this
book and it kept me entertained.
I was telling a friend about itand they were like you got to
tell me who the murderer is.
I need to know.
And I was like I have a guessand I was actually right, but it
was a close one, I wasn't sure.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah Well, thank you, and I'm glad to hear that If
there was some uncertainty, thatwas part of the goal, so that's
good to know.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
That's the getting to decide who you think the killer
is.
Yeah, exactly what can you tellus about your current work in
progress?
So is this book a series or isit a standalone?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It is a series and I've actually pretty much
completed the next couple ofbooks in the series.
But what I'm actually puttingthe final touches on now is a
very different kind of mysteryin that it's got very different
characters and the setting'svery different.
So it takes place on an islandin Greece, a Greek island, and
(04:11):
the protagonist is a young PhDstudent in archaeology who's
there for a fellowship and shewinds up becoming an amateur
detective when someone she knowsdies mysteriously.
So that's kind of verydifferent and I've had fun with
that.
That's almost done, and thenI'll kind of go back to the
number two and number threebooks in the series that no
(04:32):
Right Way to Die sets off andsort of try to put the final
touches on those.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
How did the idea for this new one come to you?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I was on a Greek island for vacation a couple of
years back and not very welleducated in, but interested in
ancient Greece and thecivilization and the archaeology
and how much continues to bediscovered, you know, from so
many years ago, and some of theremarkable sophistication of
both the way people lived andtheir art and their dwellings
(05:03):
from even 1600 BC or something.
So all that was in my mind andsort of not quite sure exactly
how.
But then when I got back homeafter a little while I just
thought oh, wouldn't it beinteresting if we set a couple
of young Americans down there inthat setting and both
interacting with people who arenative to the island and with
(05:24):
archaeology, which I had to do abit of research on and see what
happens.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
That sounds really interesting.
You may not be able to tell methis, but because you've already
written the other books in thatseries and now you're working
on this one, will you have anadditional release out next year
?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I hope so.
Not completely sure, but Ibelieve that there'll be the
number two book in the seriesthat follows this one in about a
year, so that would be a plan,yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Okay, wow, that's really quick.
So did you write this wholeseries before you even started
querying?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I didn't write the whole series and I frankly think
that there's more to go in theseries.
I mean, I think where I amisn't the end At some point.
Obviously there will be, but Ido think there's more to go.
Before I even started thinkingabout trying to get this
published, I was pretty wellinto at least the basics of what
(06:16):
number two would look like thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
But, yay, that's awesome that we get the next
book in the series one up in ayear, because I know all those
deadlines are super tight.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, in about a year , but this one isn't quite real
yet, so it's a lot to still goon this one.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Speaking a little bit more about no Right Way to Die.
Can you tell us a little bitmore kind of about your author
journey and how it led you frombeing the Deputy Editor-in-Chief
at the Wall Street Journal tobecoming an author?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, so I was a journalist for a very long time
and it was a super rewardingcareer, and I was at Dow Jones,
which is the parent company ofthe Wall Street Journal, both at
their newswire, dow JonesNewswires, and the journal, for
decades and, as I said, I reallyenjoyed it and I felt really
quite blessed to have had thatcareer.
And near you know, near the endof it, though, I did think I
(07:06):
would like to still do somethingdifferent, and I have written
some short fiction over theyears, never really had too much
time to do it, but some shortstories, some fictional short
stories, and I just thought thatnow that I have the opportunity
, you know, let me give it a try, and I've always been a big fan
of mystery suspense and I justthought that would be a kind of
(07:27):
a reasonable genre to attempt.
So I just feel very fortunatethat I'm in a position where I'm
still excited about it and Ihave the luxury I guess is the
word of turning my fullattention to it now, after a
career in journalism.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And I'm sure a short stories kind of helped.
But was it really difficult,Because the writing styles are
so different from you know, likejournalistic, to pulling it out
in a novel?
It's just like night and day.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I know, absolutely, absolutely very different, but
it's, you know, at the same time, it's very freeing to write
fiction and I've read enoughover the years to know.
Obviously you do want to seethings from a character or
multiple characters point ofview and it's very subjective in
what their view of the world isand how they justify some of
their actions, even if they'renot always admirable actions,
(08:18):
you know.
In that sense it wasn't thatdifficult because it was just a
different way to approach thingsand one that I was eager to try
.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And what made no Right Way to Die the story that
you had to tell first.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting because I first did
think of it as a short storyidea that I just imagined these
two men who grew up in sort ofthe same Brooklyn neighborhood
and whose lives went in verydifferent directions and then in
middle age that they come intoconflict.
And once I started writing thatreally as a short story, a
couple of other kind of bigideas occurred to me.
(08:50):
Writing that really as a shortstory, a couple of other kind of
big ideas occurred to me and Irealized, well, I said, wow,
this might have sort of the legs, if you will, to be that one
big story or, you know, haveenough to make it into a full
novel.
So it was really just startingwith that idea of these two men
growing up in the same place butturning out rather differently
but maybe at the same timesharing some characteristics,
and then saying, wow, you know,if this happened and this
(09:13):
happened, it's a bigger storyand at that point it's a novel.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And as you're kind of taking this from what you
thought was a short story andpulling it out into a novel,
what does your plotting processkind of look like for a thriller
?
I would assume that you're aplotter because I mean, I guess
you could pants a thriller but Ifeel like that would be so hard
(09:46):
.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's funny because, as I was,
there's that distinction betweenpeople who plot meticulously
and those who maybe just startwith a scene in their mind or
one character in their mind andsort of let it go from there.
And you know, I've read thisand I think it's my own
experience bears it out.
For what that's worth is thatprobably most writers are in the
middle, so not really just oneor the other.
(10:09):
So I did start with a basicoutline, but it wasn't
meticulous, it wasn't post-itson the wall or anything like
that.
And then, as I went along, Ireally did both cut and add
things.
So the novel changed, but alsothe outline changed Even when it
was done, in other words, evenafter I had written the end, let
me put it that way I went backand I took out some scenes, I
(10:30):
added some scenes, so it waskind of an ongoing, it was both,
but it certainly started with abasic outline.
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So how do you balance kind of the realism and the
entertainment of a thriller,Because your story is very
realistic but it's entertainingthroughout?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah, well, thank you , thanks for saying that.
I you know my view like I tryto think of myself as a reader.
As I said, I really do enjoymysteries and suspense for a
long time, but I've always beenone of those people who have
enjoyed, I think, most of allthe interplay of complex
characters.
You know, yes, the plot'simportant, for sure, and you do
want to be, especially if it'skind of an organic twist, it
(11:08):
really does seem realistic.
I've always cared more about thecharacters and I look at it as
want to be kind of quote-unquoterealistic.
But you don't have to be real,right, as long as readers like
myself, certainly, and I thinkmost readers are willing to
suspend disbelief to a degree,you know it's like, yeah, that's
part of the fun of reading thiskind of book.
(11:28):
I think you heighten everything, right, so it's a world, that
things should be consistentwithin themselves, but they
don't have to be real life andfrankly, I think they shouldn't
be real life because you justwant to heighten and of course
you also which happens in a lotof thrillers, you know, you drop
people into, just like,situations that are just anxiety
driven and extraordinarilydifficult situations to see, and
(11:52):
often they react based on thekind of people they were before
the crisis, kind of.
If you see what I'm getting at.
So I think you can be realisticand really not worry about
truly being real.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yes, I think, like you said, consistency is key
because, yeah, I've read acouple lately that I'm like
they're so out there I almostcan't follow it.
I'm like this, this is a lot,this is not, doesn't make sense.
So, yeah, that consistencymakes a lot of sense.
So what was the biggestchallenge when writing this?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
well, first, because I've never really done one
before.
I was concerned there wasn'tenough going on to make it
really compelling.
Because, as I I said, I hadthis tendency, I think, to worry
about the characters and thecharacterizations and the
complexity of human beings, butat the same time I wanted a lot
to happen.
That was a challenge, you know,make sure a lot happens.
(12:44):
And then, at a much more minorlevel, when it was all done, I
went back and just said, ok, ithappens over the course of about
a year.
Have the seasons changed in theway they do in New York?
You know, just to make surethat, as we talked about that
consistency, that I sort ofdidn't miss something, that all
of a sudden something happenedand it was three months later
and readers kind of caughtunawares and said wait, wait, a
(13:07):
second.
You know that.
How does that jive with this?
So is that kind of verypractical?
Does the timeline make sense?
And then, as I'm writing,saying, is there enough going on
to make it, I hope, compelling?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
What was your favorite scene that you can't
wait for readers to get to?
That's kind of going to be hardwithout spoiling.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
but you can be a little bit vague be hard without
spoiling, but you can be alittle bit vague.
Yeah, I mean, actually I thinkI can do that without spoiling
anything because, at least to me, some of the scenes that I
liked the most were ones wherewe go back to the protagonist
Scott Morgan's childhood andteenagehood and some of the
things that happened there thathe experiences I think are
(13:49):
pretty at least for me prettygood scenes in their own right,
but also give the reader, Ithink, a pretty good sense of
what were at least theinfluences that turned him into
the person he becomes.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So hopefully his actions are understandable, even
if they're not always somethingpeople would approve of.
I mean, at the end of the day,he's doing what he feels he has
to do to protect his family.
Yeah, so if no Right Way to Diewere adapted into a film or a
TV series, who would you cast asScott, Sarah and Meredith?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
That's fun to think about.
Though it's hard to do these,yeah, that's not my forte, but I
would say, maybe for Scott,maybe George Clooney, for
Meredith, maybe Nicole Kidman.
Sarah might be a little harder.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I couldn't think of someone for Sarah but for Scott.
I was kind of thinking, maybelike Bruce Willis, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, it was kind of in the
same sort of broad bracket.
Yeah, I think for Sarah.
Maybe Saoirse Ronan I mean, I'mpronouncing her name correctly,
her first name, Maybe you knowshe's such an excellent actor
anyway, just in general thatname came to mind.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I could see that.
Yeah, it's a fun question, butsometimes kind of hard when
you're imagining it in your head.
Do you just kind of see likegeneral facial features but not
like a specific person?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, yeah exactly, exactly, yeah, or a person that
doesn't exist.
Frankly, you know what I mean.
Like I sort of see someone butit's not.
It's not someone who exists.
That's, I think, the case here.
(15:29):
So it's like you say when youtry to say match it up with real
human beings who are actors.
It's sure you know, and I thinkthat happens anytime.
Obviously it becomes adifferent medium if a book is
adapted and it takes on a wholedifferent flavor because you
have actors interpreting it.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And the other thing is that with an actor it's not
even just their physicalcharacteristics, it's kind of
their tone of voice and theirpersonality and normally kind of
sometimes what they've beentypecasted in.
So yeah, it adds a whole notherlayer of trying to find the
right person.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
No, that's a great.
That's a great point ExactlyBecause then you have viewers,
they remember the actor from aparticular film or particular
television series and, yeah,then they sort of superimpose
their own views.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
So how would you describe your experience with
traditional publishing so far?
And kind of like, once yousigned your contract, what did
the process generally look likefrom there?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, I mean, as I said, it's my first time and I'm
with a very small publishingcompany.
They have distributionagreements with the larger
publisher, but I'm not sure myexperience is representative.
But I mean, it's essentiallyrun by two people, so the nice
part about that is thatcommunications is very easy.
You know, there's no big groupthere to deal with, it's just
(16:34):
the two partners, and they'veboth been excellent to deal with
.
And I also felt, having been aneditor myself for many years, I
felt that I received a verygood edit of the book.
That made it a stronger book.
So I, you know, as an editormyself, at least in a previous
life, I appreciated that thebook came out better for the
edit.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
How many rounds of revisions did you go through?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
That's a great question.
I'd say at least 10.
Yeah, I'd say probably 10, youknow, and some of them were very
small things.
Yeah, you know, I'd saysomewhere in the area of 10.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I'm sure it's hard to get an exact number because,
like you said, there are somesmall ones or, like you might
read through it and change somethings, or they might read
through it and change somethings.
So it's not like a full reworkevery time or anything that's
right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
And yes, some of the revisions are bigger than others
.
But yeah, that's right, that'sright.
And yes, some of the revisionsare bigger than others.
But yeah, you know, you keeplooking at it, you keep looking
at it.
I did find, you know and I'veread this too as advice and it
really doesn't make sense, ifyou have the luxury of stepping
away for a week really helps.
You know, it's very hard toread a whole novel and then the
next day started again.
You know when you're lookingfor finding either small things
(17:41):
you'd rather improve or eventhings like oh, I've used this
word too many times, let me usea synonym that kind of thing,
and I've definitely heard thatfrom other authors too.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But I'm sure that once you've looked at it so many
times, it's hard and you kindof are almost blind to you know
little things.
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think that time you can, even if you're still
working, just work on somethingelse for a while.
I think that real, I think thatreally helps.
You know, if you can get alittle distance, even if you
obviously know the story, youcan come at least at some of the
language issues with a bit of afresh perspective.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Were you already working on book two while book
one was in edits?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yes, yes, and that was helpful because, like I said
, you know, if it's during sortof downtime or time that I would
like to say let me wait a fewdays so I can have a fresh
perspective, I had somethingelse to work on, and is there a
message line or moment in noRight Way to Die that you're
particularly proud of, or a partthat early readers kind of
(18:39):
quote back to?
so far, nothing in a particularline or scene and I don't know
if proud is the right word.
I hope that people come awaywith that.
A lot of what happens in thebook there's several different
ways to look at it, that there'san ambiguity about what
happened.
Was this character'sperspective correct on it, or
(19:01):
that character's perspectivecorrect on it, or that
character's perspective correcton it?
And what's one of thecharacters just trying to
justify their actions tothemselves?
So if there's a sense ofambiguity about what happens and
a few different kinds of waysto look at it, I would be happy
that if readers come away withthat sense.
I think human behavior iscomplicated and complex enough
(19:23):
that there's always someambiguity.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
And kind of how one character's actions just tumble
and create a lot of issues forall the other characters and
like ripple out throughout thebook.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Exactly right and you know the whole thing right.
You take a certain action andthere's all these unintended
consequences.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Thank you so much for being on the show and thanks
for listening to when I Left Off.
The bookish podcast no RightWay to Die releases July 8th and
you can pick up your copywherever books are sold.
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