September 25, 2025 • 51 mins
Thanks to Avon, Harper Collins, and Olivia Dade for joining me to talk about her newest upcoming release, Second Chance Romance. This is book two in the Harlot's Bay series.
Purchase Olivia's Books:
- Find the latest updates on her website.
- Second Chance Romance (Pre-order)
- Zom Rom-Com
- At First Spite (Harlot's Bay #1)
- Spoiler Alert
- All the Feels
- Ship Wrecked
Books Mentioned in This Episode:
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to take you to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send us a message button" above.
For more, follow along on Instagram @whereileftoffpod.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls and you'relistening to when I Left Off a
bookish podcast, and today I'mjoined by USA Today bestselling
author, olivia Dade, who youprobably know from the Spoiler
Alert series, love Unscriptedseries.
There's Something AboutMarysburg series Zomromcom, and
today we're talking about thesecond book in the Harlotsed
series.
There's Something AboutMarysburg series, zomromcom, and
today we're talking about thesecond book in the Harlots Bay
(00:28):
series, second Chance Romance.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday, olivia.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, thank you so much for chatting with me,
Kristen.
I'm really excited to sort oftalk through the book and just
chat.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yes, and this was a really really good book, so I
cannot wait to talk to you aboutit.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I loved revisiting the character of Carl.
He was definitely someone whosort of sprang to life in a way
that I didn't necessarilyanticipate in the first book in
At First Spite in the HarlotSpace series and I know for my
readers he's definitely a readerfavorite from the first book.
So I was very happy to focus onhim this go round.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
So when you were writing At First Spite and you
had Carl listening to theaudiobooks, did you know at that
point that he was going to bein the second book, or did that
come later?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I thought that at some point I would be interested
in telling his story.
But I was not committed totelling his story as the second
book.
But you know, the same thinghappened in the spoiler alert
series is that Marcus's bestfriend in the first book spoiler
alert Alex Woodrow.
I knew he was gonna have a bestfriend and I kind of knew, plot
(01:37):
wise what was going to happen.
But his personality was sovibrant to me Some personalities
you sort of have to build onthe page and some of them sort
of spring fully formed, likeAthena from Zoot's Head.
He kind of arrived on the pageand sort of elbowed all the
other secondary characters aside, and so I was like, well, I
(01:58):
guess I would really love totell his story as the second
book and luckily my publisheragreed.
Something somewhat similarhappened with this one, where I
deliberately set it up so thatthe whole idea that he was
listening I knew that he waslistening to the narrator of the
audiobooks, that he was lessconcerned about the actual books
(02:19):
, although I think he'sreluctantly into them at this
point if only so he can, youknow, argue with people about
them and debate, debate aboutthem with the nasty wenches book
club.
But I knew that he would bereally listening to them for the
narrator, but I just wasn'tsure when that story would be
told.
But again, his sort ofcantankerousness made him very
(02:42):
fun to write and it made him, Ithink, I found I think readers
found him very endearing and so,and so that's that's sort of
what caused me to write his book.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Second, you may not be able to say yet, but do you
know whose book is going to bethird, and is that your current
work in progress?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It is not my current work in progress.
My guess is that the third bookwould be Molly's best friend,
lise.
You sort of see that there'ssomething happening in the
background where she has a betand she wins that bet and you
know that she is hooked up withsomeone and she's sort of very
(03:19):
squirrely about it.
I want to give a lot of details, squirrely about it.
I want to give a lot of detailsand that's frankly so that I
don't hem myself in.
It's me a lot of room where Ican serve to decide how I want
her story to go.
So I know that it's ishappening in the background, but
I have not served worked outexactly what that story will be
(03:40):
and I want to give myself a lotof room to play.
So that's what I did.
And that'll be reallyinteresting with her alter ego
and slash job, yes, with Sadie,with her being Sadie Raisin, the
famous the famous eroticromance author.
And also, at some point, itwould be fun to write the
stories of the dueling sex shopowners.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
When I read that, I have a feeling that that's going
to come back down.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I just love the thought of a town that is
canonically so horny that theycan support a small town.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
They can support two sex shops, and of course Molly
has to point that out.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Oh my gosh, I love that.
That.
Okay, I I'm really excited.
I'm also very excited for whenthe nasty wenches book club
realizes that she's sadie.
And then they're like wait aminute, are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
we've been reading your books like half of this
time the entire town of harlotsbay has been listening to these
books through athena's window.
So she, uh, she is very much.
Whether she knows it or not,it's sort of a town mascot local
(04:59):
celebrity.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
They never knew they had exactly exactly.
So what are you actuallycurrently reading?
Authors always have the bestrecommendation, so I have to ask
.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I am a fan of Kelly Armstrong.
She writes all sorts ofdifferent stories like she wrote
.
She did write a rom-comrecently.
She writes horror.
She wrote a really fascinatingseries called the Rockton series
, which was a kind of mysterysuspense thriller with a
romantic sub arc.
And then she has a more recentseries that is set in Victorian
(05:36):
Scotland and it's a time slipwhere it's called actually Rip
Through Time series where awoman goes back in time to
victorian she's a actuallypolice detective in canada,
modern, goes back in time tovictorian scotland and sort of
ends up in the body of a maidfor this uh sort of
(05:57):
unconventional household at thetime.
And there are, you know,mysteries and murders and, like
again, a very slow burn romanceoccurring with gray who is
ostensibly her employer butreally is she's helping him
solve mysteries and it is aggroand and it's.
(06:17):
I love the books.
I am going to shake thecharacters.
I just want to make them kiss.
They need to kiss and there wasnear miss kisses and I was like
I swear to goodness, like, ifyou don't like, smash them
together.
I will be writing in a grievedemail if the if the uh romantic
(06:42):
arc doesn't at least somewhatresolve soon.
But I do really enjoy thosebooks.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I know I always have to remind myself whenever I'm
reading something that's maybe alittle bit more mystery or
thriller or some other genre.
They may not get together andit's fine, but hopefully they do
.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
As a sign of how much I really do enjoy her writing.
I actually, I will be honest,really do enjoy her writing.
I actually, I will be honest,there are mysteries that I kind
of flip quickly past the mysterypart to get to the romantic
part, because I am a romancereader and author at heart.
But I enjoy her writing so much, and the mysteries, the way she
sets them up so much, that Iactually even read the mystery
(07:20):
part too, which is a truecompliment for me.
Because if the care, if thelove interest is not on the page
, if they're not on the pagetogether often enough, I
sometimes get a little antsybecause I am born and bred like
romance readers.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So yeah, how do you find your book recs?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
You know a lot of it.
You know used to be twitter, uh, but I'm not on twitter anymore
and so blue sky, uh, some of itis.
You know I read.
I have a lot of writer friendsnow, since I've been doing this
for, you know, 11 years, and soI read a lot of their books and
I actually, when I chat with mywriter friends, I ask well, what
(08:01):
have you been reading?
Have you liked it?
So we, yeah, we give each otherrecommendations.
I have recommended kellyarmstrong to people before.
She has a series that is like afemale assassin, which I love.
Now I think it's like nadiaokay, like nadia something,
anyway, but I love like.
That series was great.
Uncommunicative men are likeher strong suit.
(08:24):
She's really good that seriesin particular because the love,
the slow burn, love interest, isalso an assassin, but she does
like she writes the gamut and Ireally admire that.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So, yeah, we recommend books to each other
all the time so okay, I actuallythought of a book rec that I
think you would like.
Okay, tell me tell me the mostwonderful crime of the year by
ellie carter.
I don't know if you.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Oh, I've heard that those series like that her, you
know the spy series and thatwere fantastic, so the one
that's wonderful.
Okay, yes, all right, it'sgoing on.
My list.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It's like a knives out holiday rom-com.
But he constantly is drivingher insane and he'll just say
like want to make out all thetime whenever she's so annoyed.
It's amazing, it's so bad, itis the best.
It's really funny.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
That does sound hilarious.
I will definitely have to readthat.
Thank you for therecommendation.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Oh, but just know that the first half seems like
it's mainly mystery.
But then there's a plot twistin the middle and you know why
it's a romance novel.
So hang in there.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Past the mystery part and then it'll get really it'll
get way more into the romance.
I will be patient, I promise, Ifeel like I have to preface
that.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So I was going to ask like, what does a typical
writing day look like?
Um, especially since you haveso many books coming out?
You just released Zomromcom andnow you also have Second Chance
Romance, so it seems like yourpublishing schedule is really
intense you know, there was alonger gap than normal between
my my previous book that cameout before Zomromcom.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
At first spite there was, you know, usually my books
were coming out once a year.
That one was more like a yearand almost a half.
So I think you know, basicallyit's so.
Then these got sort of likesort of near each other.
Um, in part because somerom-com I think could have been
published earlier, but becauseit, you know, had a, I think
(10:24):
they wanted to do it somewherein the basic vicinity of
Halloween because of the sort ofthe zombie horror aspect and so
putting it out something likeMarch or something didn't really
make a lot of sense.
So they, they held on to it toAugust, which I, which I
appreciate.
So a typical writing day for me,uh, I tend to some writers are
(10:45):
very uh, healthy, like smart,very schedule driven people like
who can write like I writeevery day from 10 to 4, and you
know.
And then take sundays.
Yeah, I, I am very much feastor famine, so, like when I am
writing I need to stay immersedin my character's headspace and
(11:08):
in the story, and it's very hardfor me to do that if I'm taking
more than about a day off at atime.
So I will sort of workrelatively long days and I'll
work most days of the week,maybe just take a day off, you
know, during a week until it'sdone.
You know, every time I pausefor longer than about a day, I
(11:30):
have to go back and basicallyreread what I've done before and
try to reenter the headspace.
It's just the way my brainseems to work.
It works better to sort of doit sort of all in a big flood
and then I take, you know, taketime off, just entirely off.
You know other than emails, andyou know administrative stuff I
need to do.
I might not write somethingagain for two or three months.
(11:53):
So basically because I'mexhausted at the end and to sort
of refill refill the well iswhat they call it.
You know, writing is generativework.
It's creative, generative workand there has to be a wellspring
within you from which thatcomes, the energy that you need
but also the sort of creativeimpulse, and that just takes a
little while for me to sort ofread, for that to reemerge so
(12:16):
that I can write the next book.
And these days I try to for atleast an hour or two per writing
day, but it doesn't alwayshappen, is I often either Zoom
or have a Teams call with one ofmy writer friends and we do.
They're not sprints becausewe're not trying to go fast, but
(12:37):
just like do work blocks withthem to keep each other company.
It's really, you know, writingcan be very isolating other
company.
It's really, you know, writingcan be very isolating and it's
really lovely to feel like youhave company, even if most of
the time you're just see theperson's face off to the side
and you're both muted.
But then you check in everyhalf hour or 45 minutes or hour
and say how did it?
go like you know, I'm reallystruggling with this scene, or
(13:00):
like I, I have this joke.
I think it's really funny andit it really helps me and it's
really joyful for me to check inwith friends, and I started
doing that this past couple ofyears and it really has
transformed how big an amount ofjoy I have.
In writing.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
That makes sense.
I'm remote and I do the samething with my coworkers.
We all sit on a Teams call andwe just work and chat together
and it really does help a lotand it keeps you focused.
I feel like I can focus morewhen I know that someone's
sitting right there too.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I mean there are times certainly it helps with
motivation and that if I werejust by myself I could manage to
fritter away the entire morningon YouTube like some YouTube
rabbit hole.
But if I'm there with a friendand they're like diligently
working away, I feel kind of badabout watching like a carpet
get cleaned on YouTube.
(13:53):
I have to.
I was like I gotta do something.
Fine, how did you find yourwriting group?
My first writing friend I made,close writing friend I made was
actually Mia Sosa.
Back in 20, I guess, 2014,.
We were.
(14:13):
We started out actually ascritique partners before either
one of us had agents, beforeeither one of us had published a
book.
We met on the Romance Writersof America sort of message board
.
She was looking for a critiquepartner and someone else had
actually snatched her up.
But I wrote anyway and said ifthings fall through, then you
(14:36):
know, please let me know.
And it turns out they did.
So I snatched her up and webecame critique partners and
then I even though it was a bitof a drive for me at the time at
the time I lived in Hagerstown,maryland, so I went to like the
Baltimore romance writers andthe Washington romance writers
things, but each of those was apretty long haul for me.
(14:57):
So I met some people lovelypeople through that, but mostly
online.
Mostly Twitter was where I metmost of my dear friends.
Particularly sort of the periodin the mid 20 teens mid to late
20 teens is where really I met.
I met most of the people who,other than my direct family like
(15:17):
that I love in my life, allcame, came through there.
So I'm very grateful to thattime period because it brought
me so many people that I love inmy life.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
It's amazing.
I'm glad that you could findthem through Twitter.
I've heard a lot of similarstories from earlier Twitter.
Of course, things change.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, I mean, it was a very Twitter was at the time.
You know, it was very much abook focused community,
hilarious, like, just hilariouspeople, and just lots of
conversation about books andabout writing and um, yeah, it
was really, it was really lovely, I don't know that.
Briefly it felt like blue skymaybe could become that, and
(15:59):
then the election happened andthen after that it's and I'm
still on blue sky and I enjoyedand there is bookish discussion
and I need to make sure that Iam more a part of that bookish
discussion.
But I think politics has sortof the urgency of the politics
has sort of overwhelmed thetimeline to a certain extent.
So it's not not quite the samereplacement and I, and from what
(16:22):
I've heard from friends, it'snot quite the same on threads
either.
It's because of the algorithm,some algorithm stuff with
threads.
So hopefully someday there willbe, uh, one, one social media
site to rule them all once againit'll be amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I found my little corner of bookstagram, but it is
definitely a a search, it's.
It's not like you can just goon bookstagram and yeah it's.
Yeah, it's a little bit more ofa search.
And then, of course, half thestuff happens in dms or like
little group chats there, soit's not as if it's not like
threads or blue sky where otherpeople can see you know, right
session too.
So, yeah, yeah, social mediasite will just come in, like you
(17:01):
said, and just make it, make itfun again.
It's, it's nice, whatever it'sfun yeah talking a little bit
more about second chance romance.
Can you tell me about yourprocess in creating the town of
harlots bay?
So I happen to know kind of ageneral like harlot-esque theme
from the fighting bluesies,mascot and doxy, diner and some
of the other really fun townestablishments.
(17:23):
So what kind of led you thatdirection?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I just thought it would be super fun to create a
town that was sort of born outof like in this case, you know,
17th century, like runaway women, like proto-feminists, and that
became sort of the town'sidentity.
They became a place whereespecially women, but also men,
(17:46):
non-binary people who had burneddown their lives in some
fashion come and sort of wereable to sort of rebuild their
lives in a supportive community.
And I just was really amused bythe thought that, you know, if
it was called Harlots Bay wasmeant to be a pejorative but the
people in the town embraced it,then they would sort of I
(18:12):
really like the idea ofreclaiming gendered insults.
So you have, like the townmotto is in bitches we trust and
like and all of that I try tomake, so like trumpet square,
like basically have the town bea joyful reclamation of gendered
insults, you know, in a waythat is sex positive and you
know positive toward like strongwomen.
(18:34):
So so that was really a joy andI, because my background isn't
my academic background, is inhistory I have this like lengthy
explanation of like the historyof the town, a lot of which was
in at first spite, and then Irealized no one cares, but you,
olivia, I have to take it out.
But I've got stuff in there likewhat happened during the french
(18:56):
and indian war in the town.
You will never know, but I knowbecause, again, no one cares
but me.
But I, I did.
I had a lot more nerdyexplanations for things like the
local shipyard economy, uh,anyway, back in the colonial
period, but then I was like noone.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
They just want the romance, olivia, just forget it
well, so I know that you were ahistory teacher.
How long did you teach um?
And I noticed that Athena was aburnt out teacher.
So I became a high schoolteacher and I taught for until I
(19:49):
moved to be with my husband inMaryland.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I taught for three years and it was really one of
the greatest joys of my life.
I still think about, I say,those kids.
I in my mind I'm like, I stillthink about those kids and they
were only 10 years younger thanme, so like they're in their
late 30s now.
They're not kids, but they wereand I still think about them.
(20:14):
I still think about a lot ofthem, a lot because I really
adored them.
Some of them I had for two yearsin world history and then US
history and but I was workinglike Athena, 70 to 80 hours a
week and I didn't know how tomuch like Athena that came.
A lot of that came from mypersonal experience.
(20:37):
I didn't know how to half assit Like I didn't know how to
make the workload manageable ina way that I would still feel
good about what I was giving tothe kids in my class the
attention they needed, the timethey needed, like the grading,
like attention to grading.
I knew I was going to begetting a new prep and I was
(20:58):
like I and I was going to bestarting over in a new state.
I would need to be licensed tothat new state.
I would be starting at thebottom of another school where I
probably would not have theclasses that I was best suited
to teach.
I was like, do I have it in me,as much as I love these kids and
I do and enjoy teaching, do Ihave it in me to start all over
at a new school with preps thatare probably not what I most
(21:21):
want to do, and work 70, 80hours a week when I have a new
husband and we plan to have achild soon, like, and I just
decided this doesn't make sense.
It didn't so so I did leave.
But my mom was a lifelongteacher, elementary school
teacher.
My aunt was a lifelong middleschool teacher and my years
(21:43):
teaching high school as much asI, they were brief, like they
really.
They meant a lot to me andcontinue to do so.
So Athena's background and sortof her feelings about teaching
were very much based on my ownthat makes sense um.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
I'm a former audio video production teacher at high
school, so I totally get whatyou mean adding another prep and
just all, all the things thatjust get stacked on top of each
other.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Right, it's, you know and I was teaching at the time
of the beginning of no ChildLeft Behind, so there was a lot
of new paperwork and a lot ofnew tests and a very much a
focus on sort of teaching totests rather than sort of
whatever happened to be on thetest.
That was what you had to focuson, maybe not as without being
(22:30):
as responsive to what the kidsin your specific class actually
found interesting, and it was.
You know, I think things haveonly gotten more difficult for
teachers since then.
I don't think I would fare wellin like modern schools, like
the schools today.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So my hat's off to teachers who were making it work
even now were you writing atthe time of teaching like a
little bit here and there, orhad you not started yet?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
it took every ounce of my energy to teach.
I mean, there was no the mentalload is just out of this world
yeah, yeah, I mean I wasteaching history and you know my
last couple of years I wasteaching AP history, so like a
lot of writing too, and then thepreps.
You know my first year ofteaching I probably got like
(23:22):
four or five hours of sleep anight for most of the year
because I was just constantlyrunning behind.
I mean I remember this kid inone of my world history classes
asking me like are we going towe're talking about, I think
maybe the transatlantic slavetrade?
And he was like Are we going totalk about Eastern Africa at
some point?
And I was like that's anexcellent question.
(23:43):
It all depends on the timing.
And the simple answer is Ididn't know further than a week
ahead.
I mean, I was doing, working ashard as I could, like I just
couldn't get any further aheadthan that, so like I had no
answer for it because I didn'tknow.
So no, there was no.
By the time I left, I think, Iwas like severely burned out
(24:06):
because, as much as I love thekids, it was just so much.
It was so much I did not startwriting until 2014.
So that was after I had done alot of other sort of part-time
usually jobs and then I wasworking at a public as a public
librarian, for I'd been workingthere for about five years when
(24:26):
I started writing.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
That makes sense.
Funny enough, I actually saw AtFirst Bite in my library the
other day.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
I love librarians.
I believe so strongly in theirrole, not just as like purveyors
of literature, but also for thecommunity they do.
Libraries are so central, youknow, as a meeting place in the
community, as a resource of notjust books and movies and
audiobooks, but often like toolsor creative things, and they're
(24:59):
a place that often teachescommunity members like helps me
members with, like jobapplications.
It's internet access.
It's a place to go when it'sincredibly hot or incredibly
cold and people need to stayalive.
I mean fundamentally likeunhoused people, but also people
who may not be able to affordheat or air conditioning.
(25:20):
Like it's there's so central tothe community.
I have great admiration forlibrarians and I honestly
believe a good chunk of thereason I have a career is
because of librarians.
Librarians, and I honestlybelieve a good chunk of the
reason I have a career isbecause of librarians.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
They have been so good to me and my book, so that
makes me very happy that it wasin the library oh yeah, you, you
are always stocked at ourlibrary thing and, like you said
, it is kind of one of the lastfree third spaces for the
community to be able to gatherin one spot.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, I mean, sometimes the things that happen
there were even back, you know,when I was 10 years ago.
I was sort of like there's oneperson who would like paint, I'm
like just don't, just, please,don't get paint over everything.
But like, yeah, it's a safe,you know, generally somewhat
mostly quiet space that is, youknow, a shelter that is a good
(26:10):
temperature and and hasresources for the community,
like they do such crucial workagreed.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
If carl and molly were having a movie night, what
would be their go-to?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
carl would probably have Molly choose, because
whatever she chose, his greatjoy would be like bitching about
it.
Then his joy would come likebasically bitching about
whatever she chose.
So that I mean otherwise, youknow, because they're meant to
(26:45):
be a little bit older, maybethey experienced a little bit of
mystery, science, theater 3000,is um, I don't know if you know
the premise, but it's theselike b movies that were not
great and then they had peoplesort of you see their
silhouettes at the front of thetheater there's a whole
backstory but that are sort ofmaking fun of the movie as it
goes on like and it's, the jokesrange from the most basic jokes
(27:10):
to like super esoteric, likejokes about literature and
movies, and I just I loved itand it would also suit their
sensibilities.
Like one of the the things wasreal pleasure for me writing the
book was that in some ways itis a bit of a grumpy, grumpy
book.
Carl is cantankerous, he isdefinitely grumpy.
She Carl is cantankerous, he isdefinitely grumpy.
She Molly is not cantankerous,but she is a little cynical.
(27:34):
So like I could see them likesitting there and taking a lot
of joy sitting in front of aterrible movie and like talking
about how terrible that movie isand dissecting the ways in
which it is terrible.
So I think that would be asource of a source of joy for
them.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I agree, and there are also these videos on
Instagram where a wife will showher husband like for the first
time, like she's the man or youknow, a really kind of and uh,
he'll make commentary on it thewhole time and I could
definitely see Carl doing that.
He could fit right in.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Okay, so Carl and Molly are carrying a lot of past
trauma, as we all do.
What draws you to writingcharacters that they just feel
like they have really highstakes to overcome, especially
after that prologue where yousee how many kind of like missed
chances they had Right.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
You know, I think to talk about more broadly for a
second is that I think differentsub-genres within romance have
different primary challenges.
Like, I think, historicalromance, one of the primary
challenges is actuallyresearching the history, you
know, like making sure.
I mean, there are wallpaperhistoricals where it's sort of
historical in a very modern waybut sort of, you know, learning
(28:56):
the essentials of the history ofthe time.
And then you have things likeparanormal romance or sci-fi
romance where a lot of it is theworld building.
Right, that's the fundamentalchallenge, I think in
contemporary romance.
You know, the world building.
If you're in the world as weunderstand it, that is less of a
challenge.
You don't have to learn thehistory.
(29:18):
But in today's sort of modernlandscape, if two people are
into each other, generallythere's not a lot keeping them
apart.
You know, like if two peopleare into each other and they're
both available, there's not alot.
There are a lot of reasonspeople don't end up together in
reality, but most of thosereasons would really frustrate
(29:39):
readers, you know.
And so I think you have to sortof figure well, why wouldn't
these people be together?
Sort of figure well, whywouldn't these people be
together?
And so in the case of Carl andMolly, then I mean you have
issues of maybe just timing andI mean I had high school crushes
(30:00):
that in retrospect I suspectthat crush was returned, but
neither one of us said anything.
And it's not that we were.
I mean, it's just your kids,right, and you're not thinking
you don't recognize when someoneelse is into you.
But in the case of you knowCarl, I sort of envisioned him
(30:20):
as someone who has like majorcommunication issues, not
because he doesn't feel things,but because he always felt
things too intensely and didn'twant to get made fun of for it
and so just sort of keeps it tohimself.
And then for Molly, she'ssomeone who's moved around so
(30:41):
much that it's hard for her tosort of make ties because she's
always having to uproot them.
So like what's the point Ifyou're just going to move again
in three months?
Why get attached to people?
And then, now that she's goingto stay, she's just unpracticed
in forming those ties and thenby the time they re-meet 20
years in the future.
(31:02):
She has also had like some veryfundamental betrayals in her
life.
The two men in her life thatshe has trusted the most and
loved the most of both, indifferent ways.
She's been punished fortrusting those men, so that you
know her sort of naturalinstinct to distance and the way
she's been trained to keep adistance has only been
(31:22):
reinforced by that.
And then Carl again, you know,has, basically he's never really
fully learned to sort ofcommunicate like effectively,
one thing that made him you knowthat I had to sort of grow into
and I know that it's probablyirritating for some readers his
sort of way, distinctive way ofspeaking and thinking, like that
(31:42):
he's not going to think in sortof long drawn out sentences,
he's going to avoid usingpronouns and that he he's gonna
speak and think in a differentsort of way than molly's going
to, because he's just not anatural born communicator or
someone who words is not how heshows.
(32:03):
How shows caring.
It is through actions that heshows caring.
Often his words are directlyopposed to his actions, where
he's telling you he doesn't careabout something or someone and
he's going out of his way toassist that person because he
does care.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
but he, the more loudly he protests, the more he
cares and I think molly at somepoint even says like carl never
met.
A sentence fragment I didn'tlike, like, yep, right, that's
carl in a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yes, but I mean, I think we all have sort of trauma
in our past one way or another.
If you, if people who don'tlike, I'm very happy for them,
but most of us at some point oranother.
And and again, you gotta, atsome point in contemporary
romance, you've got to explainwhy these people can't be
together unless they're enemiesor rivals or representatives of
(32:57):
different mafia families.
All of which could be true, allof which could be true.
But if they are sort of morenormal, like representative,
standard representatives ofpeople today, like why wouldn't
these people be like I'm intoyou, are you into me?
Yeah, yeah, I am.
And then they, and then theyhook up and live happily ever
(33:20):
after.
You'd have like well, that wasa nice pamphlet.
You gotta have a book.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's very true.
What aspects of Carl andMolly's personalities make them
the most fun or challenging towrite?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Carl.
I was sort of figuring out hiscadence of his speech for me,
like.
So that one thing that myeditor told me when I wrote alex
woodrow, the second book in thespoiler alert series.
She said that often whenthere's a side character who's
very vivid, like has a reallylarge personality, when they get
(34:01):
their own book in a series,that personality becomes like
muted, that they are essentiallylike standardized to like
standard hero or standard femalemain character, that like the
things that made them so uniquesort of get toned down and she's
like.
But that's not the reason peoplelove them is because of that.
(34:24):
But it is challenging then towrite a big personality.
So one of my sort of bigchallenges to myself in writing
All the Feels was not to tonedown Alex, and one of my
challenges with writing SecondChance Romance was not to tone
down Carl, and so I tried tosort of you know his even in his
thoughts and in his speech,make sure that he is the person
(34:47):
that he is in book one, and sothat was a little bit of a
challenge.
I think if you read one pageand either their points of view,
either carl or molly, I thinkyou will know within a sentence
or two who it is, even if itweren't labeled, because you can
tell just from the way thatthey phrase things who it is,
(35:07):
and that was part of my goal isnot to have generic characters,
for their personality to comethrough, even in descriptions or
in their thoughts.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
True and that was a really good point.
Whenever you said that, I waslike, oh my gosh, that is so
true, that is so true.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think the challenge is really having
two uncommunicative in variousways two uncommunicative
characters, making sure that thereader hopefully cares about
them and can understand why theywould be hesitant to just lay
their heart on the table and belike.
This is how I feel.
Do you feel the same way thatyou would understand why that is
(35:46):
not that easy for them?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
So whenever you were crafting them and trying to make
sure that they had differentvoices, did you do a lot of prep
work before to make sure, ordid you like while you were
writing, you were just reallycognizant of like OK, this is
Carl.
This is how he's going to think.
This is how he's going to talk.
This is Molly.
This is how she's going tothink.
This is how she's going to talk.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
this is Molly, this is how she's going to think,
this is how she's going to talk.
I would say it's the firstscene from his POV.
It's the one that I had to workhardest on just to establish
where I you know, because if Iwrote it the way I wrote Molly's
, it wouldn't make sense for hischaracter.
It just it would be like who isthis?
It doesn't sound like Carl, andso, you know, usually it'll
(36:26):
take me a little bit longer towrite the first POV scene,
unless it's very clear in mymind.
This is what they they soundlike, because Alex again, in all
the fields, very clear what hesounded like, for whatever
reason, from the beginning.
But you know, carl, because itwas so different from how I
usually write, because I lovecompound sentences, man, I love
adverbs, I love adject write.
(36:47):
Because I love compoundsentences, man, I love adverbs,
I love adjectives, I lovecompound sentences noticed in
the best way.
Yes, I love pronouns.
Like you know, took me a day ortwo to sort of figure out okay,
this is his cadence, this issort of how he's gonna sound.
So, yeah, I would say it was alittle challenging the first day
(37:07):
or two, but then you sort ofyou're like, well, this is how
he sounds.
It's sort of like if you'reliving with someone, you kind of
can figure out like this is,this is how they speak, and so
that became easier prettyquickly.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And, of course, carl.
Definitely Carl had the help ofmatthew and athena kind of
helping him along to get him tocommunicate, um, and they just
kind of add a like fun, chaoticand cute element to it.
Um, so are there any othercharacters that you really want
to revisit or develop further inthe series?
I know you're talking about thetwo the rival sex shop owners.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I picture them across the street from each other and
I pictured and I'm not again, Idon't know if this will ever
happen owners, I picture themacross the street from each
other and I pictured and I'm notagain, I don't know if this
will ever happen, but I picturethat one of them has like more
like the high-end classic toysand that the other one has sort
of like the more fun, more likeless high quality but like more
features, like the sadie brazen,all these things like that.
(38:07):
And the other one was sort oflooked down anyway.
So, yes, maybe at some point,and then definitely, um, these
because I really, you know, Ireally enjoyed writing her.
I think the Sadie Brazen partof things I tried.
I have tried to this point notto write a writer, because I
think it can get very selfreferential for authors to write
(38:31):
writers that it can be a littlenavel gazey, like in meta and
stuff and I and so I wasactually not originally I did
not intend for Sadie Brazen tobe in the town, but my writer
friends were like, oh no, sheneeds to be in the town.
So I was like, fine, that's,that's what I did.
(38:53):
So yeah, I think, I think Lisedefinitely, but I definitely.
I have so much love for Matthewand Athena, and now Carl and
Molly too, that I mean they'll,they'll show up at some point
around the edges of the otherstories.
Uh, in this case, you know, thepeople Carl is closest to in his
life other than Charlotte, youknow, and her kids and his own
(39:14):
family are Matthew and Athenaand well, and the Nasty Wenches.
He actually has quite a largecommunity which he only really
realizes after he was supposedto be dead.
So this is sort of the secondchance.
Romance is also sort of hissecond chance to sort of reframe
, sort of his relationships withthe people in his life, you
(39:35):
know, and sort of reframe in away that he allows himself,
allows them into his heart fullyand then is fully in their
lives too.
So that's part of what thesecond chance is about too is
for him as well as for for thetwo of them.
But uh, but yeah, but they, he'sclose.
(39:57):
Matthew's, his best friend,athena, has sort of grew up
together right and is one of thepeople, the person that he is
the most willing to admitvulnerability to, because
Matthew is, it's such asweetheart like he knows Matthew
would never take advantage ofthat vulnerability to hurt him.
So he is more willing to bemore, more vulnerable with
(40:18):
Matthew because Matthew is likea solemn.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It just would never occur to Matthew to like try to
hurt carl in any way and, like Ithink, athena even says, um,
something about matthew beingher guide to carl and loves her
under like the carl cheat sheetis, is matthew, so she can sort
of figure out.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
and you know, and she sort of has a shortcut into
being in carl's life becausecarl felt so guilty about firing
her, like in the my originaldraft of the book, the first
draft there's a longerconversation about the fact that
he feels terrible about havinghad to fire her in the first
book through no fault of her own, but that his guilt over that
(41:03):
meant that he kind of felt likehe owed her, that he wasn't just
like you're bothering me leave,like that.
He kind of felt like he owedher, that he wasn't just like
you're bothering me leave, thathe felt like he kind of owed her
to be a little more patientthan he normally is and sort of
allow her into his life, evenapart from the fact that he
loves her for herself but alsoloves her for how she is with
Matthew, because he really wantsgood things for his best friend
(41:24):
and and sees that in her.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And I love how well her and Molly get along.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yes, and I think Athena's ebullience and like
sort of openness is somethingthat I think would be really
lovely for Molly long term.
You know that Athena would justsort of drag Molly along with
(41:52):
her into adventures and intorelationships and in a way that
Molly probably needs.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
I agree on the aspect of Lee's being um a writer.
At least her genre is so kindof out there that I I feel like
it.
It probably helps, becauseyou're like, well, I'm not
necessarily writing that exactsame thing, so I am not, it is I
.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
You know, I read the entire gamut of romance.
I read kisses only.
I read erotic romance.
I read, you know, paranormal.
I read historical.
I read everything, mystery,obviously, you know, uh, mystery
romance and so forth, but Idon't write the entire gamut,
and it was, but I do, again, Ido read it.
So I was like, well, maybeBrazen's like works are not
(42:40):
fully divorced from things thathave been on my Kindle in the
past.
Now, admittedly, I don't thinkI have a like a cryptid loch
ness monster dom on there a lotI was.
So when I came up with thetitle loch ness master, I was so
pleased with myself I can'teven tell you how, like all my
(43:02):
friends who talk with me, thatnext week I'm like guess what
title I came up with like, yes,yes, very nice, olivia, I was
very happy.
And then, of course, this one.
I had a lot of fun with the ideathat sadie brazen was
potentially flirting with darkromance.
But you find out that maybe notentirely, but with my kangaroo,
(43:24):
my kidnapper, and one of mygreat joys in writing is coming
up with fake, ridiculousintellectual property.
So in this spoiler alert series, coming up with not just the,
uh, the books that that the tvseries is based on, but also all
of like marcus's terrible,terrible films that he's made,
(43:45):
like all the horrible scriptsand things.
It was just such joy for me andso that basically serves.
Sadie Brazen's books serve thesame and the books that the
Nasty Wenches read as a wholeserve sort of that.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
They scratch that itch for me, which I appreciate
I love that that makes it fun,yeah, so what is one deleted
scene or moment that you kind ofthought about including but
didn't make it, um, into thefinal book?
And we've talked about a few,but if there's another one that
you can think of, I mean, I,originally there was one.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I had thought that I might write one more sort of
trust building exercise scene,like the blindfolded putt-putt
maybe.
But then because they now putthe corporate magazine he got
out of corporations monthly, um,I thought, uh, I I was thinking
(44:41):
it would be hilarious like how,in eps, like the blindfolded
putt-putt would be.
But then after the escape roomI was like, no, we're good.
I mean, in the escape room Iwill tell you was largely based
on my own escape room.
My husband and I did an escaperoom when we were a few years
ago, we were in hawaii.
We did an escape room there andmy husband I mean he's a very
(45:05):
he's doc.
I mean he's a, he has adoctorate, he in physics, phds
in thermodynamics, right, smartman, like, and I don't feel like
I'm that slow.
We were so bad.
We were so bad.
They started putting stuff upon the screen like look under
the rug.
Because it was clear that wewere not getting anywhere.
(45:28):
And when they did it, it verymuch was similar to what
happened when they came at theend.
They're like, and if you didthis, like it took 10 minutes
for them to go through the stepsand then they opened up like
there were two rooms we hadn'teven gotten to.
I'm like, oh, we did so bad, wewere so bad at and I think
we're better communicating thanCarl and Molly, we're just
(45:49):
really bad at escape rooms.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
So it was fun to sort of um, to reimagine that as as
Carl and Molly's like failurerather than mine but I will say,
with escape rooms, sometimesit's hard because I feel like
you can go the super in-depthroute when it's really not that
in-depth.
So then you're going on thiswhole, like I think it's going
to be this thing, this thing andthis thing, but it was really
(46:12):
just the simplest thing that youcould have thought of the whole
time part of it was just simpleincompetence on my part, but
also I think I overintellectualized some stuff
where I'm like I wonder whatthis implies.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
About the mystery, where really you're just like oh
, let's see if those numbersthat they found underneath the
rug work.
On something like where there'sno real meaning, it's just like
you're just looking forsomething that might work.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
But I think it was mostly just that we were slow
well, I love how, um in the bookat least Molly's kind of making
those connections um whenevershe's comparing Carl to her
ex-husband and realizing that hedidn't get mad and he didn't do
those things kind of instantly.
So I thought that was veryastute of her to kind of realize
that they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
You know, we are used to a certain like.
I remember when I met myhusband and there was something
like some connection at the backof the TV that we had that need
to be I need to undo it and itwasn't coming undone.
So I got out pliers and I undidit.
(47:14):
But when I undid it I likebasically ripped out the wiring.
I ruined the TV just throughbest of intentions, but really
just.
And I remember being like I wasin tears.
I was so I mean we were justdating, like we weren't, we
weren't married yet, and I wasjust in tears, like terrified
that he was going to be just soangry at me.
(47:37):
And I just remember he was justlike, oh, it's a thing you
didn't mean to, it's a thing itcan be replaced, it's it's fine,
and it just was not.
He was like you know it's it'sfine and it just was not.
He was like you know, he wasmore unhappy that I was upset
that then that this had happenedand it was so different from my
experience sort of, um, youknow, either from where you grow
(47:59):
up or you know, with your ownfamily, birth family or previous
relationships and I justremember being like, oh, thank,
thank goodness, Like that's it,that in it's that sort of moment
from Molly where, like she's,like this is the way what would
have happened in my previouslife with my ex husband, that's
not, that's not how this isgoing to play out and like that
(48:22):
can be a very powerful moment.
So, even though theycommunicate terribly and fail
miserably at the escape room,you're right, Like it is still a
very telling moment for Mollyas she begins to sort of
understand that some of thethings that she's most afraid of
experiencing again won't happenagain with Carl.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
She can definitely be safe with him.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Is there anything else that you would like readers
to know about Second ChanceRomance?
Speaker 2 (48:52):
I would say that the scene at the end at the prom
well, it's not prom, it is their20-year reunion dance was one
of my most fun experienceswriting from beginning to end
Because I went full.
You know I love all those liketeen romances, like movies of
like the early 2000s and soforth and I was like what would
(49:16):
be kind of fun to sort of harkenback to this that makes sense
for like late 30s people like.
But I just had so much fun withthat scene, so like I hope that
when people get to that part ofthe book toward the end of the
book that it's just really funfor them.
I hope the whole book is funfor them, but I I hope they look
forward to it and I hope thatthey appreciate the, the theme,
(49:38):
the under the sea, that was sofun.
I was really looking forward tothat.
The whole writing the wholebook.
I was like I cannot wait tillthis.
I cannot wait like to make it.
I just love the idea that youknow the both hackneyed theme
for like a dance under the seathat someone took it like way
too like nerds took it way tooliterally.
(49:58):
Just make it, because you knowwe had just when I wrote it.
I mean that horrible tragedywith the the sub, it just
happened.
But there was all this stuffabout like what is it like under
the sea?
And I'm like under the sea notromantic, so like you know, all
these creatures that are downlike how like unfriendly to
(50:21):
human life, it is down there andI was just like it would be
hilarious if you had people likebe like this is what it's
really like under the sea andthen have that like kelp
streamers anyway instead of yeah, like glitter and exactly
exactly.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
I love that.
Well, thank you, uh for joiningme today, olivia, and that's it
.
Thanks for listening to where Ileft off a bookish podcast.
You can visit Olivia's sitethrough the link in the show
notes and you can purchase hernovels anywhere.
Books are sold and secondchance romance releases November
25th 2025 thank you so much forchatting with me, kristen.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
I had the most lovely time.
It was the best.
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls and you'relistening to when I Left Off a
bookish podcast, and today I'mjoined by USA Today bestselling
author, olivia Dade, who youprobably know from the Spoiler
Alert series, love Unscriptedseries.
There's Something AboutMarysburg series Zomromcom, and
today we're talking about thesecond book in the Harlotsed
series.
There's Something AboutMarysburg series, zomromcom, and
today we're talking about thesecond book in the Harlots Bay
(00:28):
series, second Chance Romance.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday, olivia.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, thank you so much for chatting with me,
Kristen.
I'm really excited to sort oftalk through the book and just
chat.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yes, and this was a really really good book, so I
cannot wait to talk to you aboutit.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I loved revisiting the character of Carl.
He was definitely someone whosort of sprang to life in a way
that I didn't necessarilyanticipate in the first book in
At First Spite in the HarlotSpace series and I know for my
readers he's definitely a readerfavorite from the first book.
So I was very happy to focus onhim this go round.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
So when you were writing At First Spite and you
had Carl listening to theaudiobooks, did you know at that
point that he was going to bein the second book, or did that
come later?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I thought that at some point I would be interested
in telling his story.
But I was not committed totelling his story as the second
book.
But you know, the same thinghappened in the spoiler alert
series is that Marcus's bestfriend in the first book spoiler
alert Alex Woodrow.
I knew he was gonna have a bestfriend and I kind of knew, plot
(01:37):
wise what was going to happen.
But his personality was sovibrant to me Some personalities
you sort of have to build onthe page and some of them sort
of spring fully formed, likeAthena from Zoot's Head.
He kind of arrived on the pageand sort of elbowed all the
other secondary characters aside, and so I was like, well, I
(01:58):
guess I would really love totell his story as the second
book and luckily my publisheragreed.
Something somewhat similarhappened with this one, where I
deliberately set it up so thatthe whole idea that he was
listening I knew that he waslistening to the narrator of the
audiobooks, that he was lessconcerned about the actual books
(02:19):
, although I think he'sreluctantly into them at this
point if only so he can, youknow, argue with people about
them and debate, debate aboutthem with the nasty wenches book
club.
But I knew that he would bereally listening to them for the
narrator, but I just wasn'tsure when that story would be
told.
But again, his sort ofcantankerousness made him very
(02:42):
fun to write and it made him, Ithink, I found I think readers
found him very endearing and so,and so that's that's sort of
what caused me to write his book.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Second, you may not be able to say yet, but do you
know whose book is going to bethird, and is that your current
work in progress?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It is not my current work in progress.
My guess is that the third bookwould be Molly's best friend,
lise.
You sort of see that there'ssomething happening in the
background where she has a betand she wins that bet and you
know that she is hooked up withsomeone and she's sort of very
(03:19):
squirrely about it.
I want to give a lot of details, squirrely about it.
I want to give a lot of detailsand that's frankly so that I
don't hem myself in.
It's me a lot of room where Ican serve to decide how I want
her story to go.
So I know that it's ishappening in the background, but
I have not served worked outexactly what that story will be
(03:40):
and I want to give myself a lotof room to play.
So that's what I did.
And that'll be reallyinteresting with her alter ego
and slash job, yes, with Sadie,with her being Sadie Raisin, the
famous the famous eroticromance author.
And also, at some point, itwould be fun to write the
stories of the dueling sex shopowners.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
When I read that, I have a feeling that that's going
to come back down.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I just love the thought of a town that is
canonically so horny that theycan support a small town.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
They can support two sex shops, and of course Molly
has to point that out.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Oh my gosh, I love that.
That.
Okay, I I'm really excited.
I'm also very excited for whenthe nasty wenches book club
realizes that she's sadie.
And then they're like wait aminute, are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
we've been reading your books like half of this
time the entire town of harlotsbay has been listening to these
books through athena's window.
So she, uh, she is very much.
Whether she knows it or not,it's sort of a town mascot local
(04:59):
celebrity.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
They never knew they had exactly exactly.
So what are you actuallycurrently reading?
Authors always have the bestrecommendation, so I have to ask
.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I am a fan of Kelly Armstrong.
She writes all sorts ofdifferent stories like she wrote
.
She did write a rom-comrecently.
She writes horror.
She wrote a really fascinatingseries called the Rockton series
, which was a kind of mysterysuspense thriller with a
romantic sub arc.
And then she has a more recentseries that is set in Victorian
(05:36):
Scotland and it's a time slipwhere it's called actually Rip
Through Time series where awoman goes back in time to
victorian she's a actuallypolice detective in canada,
modern, goes back in time tovictorian scotland and sort of
ends up in the body of a maidfor this uh sort of
(05:57):
unconventional household at thetime.
And there are, you know,mysteries and murders and, like
again, a very slow burn romanceoccurring with gray who is
ostensibly her employer butreally is she's helping him
solve mysteries and it is aggroand and it's.
(06:17):
I love the books.
I am going to shake thecharacters.
I just want to make them kiss.
They need to kiss and there wasnear miss kisses and I was like
I swear to goodness, like, ifyou don't like, smash them
together.
I will be writing in a grievedemail if the if the uh romantic
(06:42):
arc doesn't at least somewhatresolve soon.
But I do really enjoy thosebooks.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I know I always have to remind myself whenever I'm
reading something that's maybe alittle bit more mystery or
thriller or some other genre.
They may not get together andit's fine, but hopefully they do
.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
As a sign of how much I really do enjoy her writing.
I actually, I will be honest,really do enjoy her writing.
I actually, I will be honest,there are mysteries that I kind
of flip quickly past the mysterypart to get to the romantic
part, because I am a romancereader and author at heart.
But I enjoy her writing so much, and the mysteries, the way she
sets them up so much, that Iactually even read the mystery
(07:20):
part too, which is a truecompliment for me.
Because if the care, if thelove interest is not on the page
, if they're not on the pagetogether often enough, I
sometimes get a little antsybecause I am born and bred like
romance readers.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So yeah, how do you find your book recs?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
You know a lot of it.
You know used to be twitter, uh, but I'm not on twitter anymore
and so blue sky, uh, some of itis.
You know I read.
I have a lot of writer friendsnow, since I've been doing this
for, you know, 11 years, and soI read a lot of their books and
I actually, when I chat with mywriter friends, I ask well, what
(08:01):
have you been reading?
Have you liked it?
So we, yeah, we give each otherrecommendations.
I have recommended kellyarmstrong to people before.
She has a series that is like afemale assassin, which I love.
Now I think it's like nadiaokay, like nadia something,
anyway, but I love like.
That series was great.
Uncommunicative men are likeher strong suit.
(08:24):
She's really good that seriesin particular because the love,
the slow burn, love interest, isalso an assassin, but she does
like she writes the gamut and Ireally admire that.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So, yeah, we recommend books to each other
all the time so okay, I actuallythought of a book rec that I
think you would like.
Okay, tell me tell me the mostwonderful crime of the year by
ellie carter.
I don't know if you.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Oh, I've heard that those series like that her, you
know the spy series and thatwere fantastic, so the one
that's wonderful.
Okay, yes, all right, it'sgoing on.
My list.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It's like a knives out holiday rom-com.
But he constantly is drivingher insane and he'll just say
like want to make out all thetime whenever she's so annoyed.
It's amazing, it's so bad, itis the best.
It's really funny.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
That does sound hilarious.
I will definitely have to readthat.
Thank you for therecommendation.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Oh, but just know that the first half seems like
it's mainly mystery.
But then there's a plot twistin the middle and you know why
it's a romance novel.
So hang in there.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Past the mystery part and then it'll get really it'll
get way more into the romance.
I will be patient, I promise, Ifeel like I have to preface
that.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So I was going to ask like, what does a typical
writing day look like?
Um, especially since you haveso many books coming out?
You just released Zomromcom andnow you also have Second Chance
Romance, so it seems like yourpublishing schedule is really
intense you know, there was alonger gap than normal between
my my previous book that cameout before Zomromcom.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
At first spite there was, you know, usually my books
were coming out once a year.
That one was more like a yearand almost a half.
So I think you know, basicallyit's so.
Then these got sort of likesort of near each other.
Um, in part because somerom-com I think could have been
published earlier, but becauseit, you know, had a, I think
(10:24):
they wanted to do it somewherein the basic vicinity of
Halloween because of the sort ofthe zombie horror aspect and so
putting it out something likeMarch or something didn't really
make a lot of sense.
So they, they held on to it toAugust, which I, which I
appreciate.
So a typical writing day for me,uh, I tend to some writers are
(10:45):
very uh, healthy, like smart,very schedule driven people like
who can write like I writeevery day from 10 to 4, and you
know.
And then take sundays.
Yeah, I, I am very much feastor famine, so, like when I am
writing I need to stay immersedin my character's headspace and
(11:08):
in the story, and it's very hardfor me to do that if I'm taking
more than about a day off at atime.
So I will sort of workrelatively long days and I'll
work most days of the week,maybe just take a day off, you
know, during a week until it'sdone.
You know, every time I pausefor longer than about a day, I
(11:30):
have to go back and basicallyreread what I've done before and
try to reenter the headspace.
It's just the way my brainseems to work.
It works better to sort of doit sort of all in a big flood
and then I take, you know, taketime off, just entirely off.
You know other than emails, andyou know administrative stuff I
need to do.
I might not write somethingagain for two or three months.
(11:53):
So basically because I'mexhausted at the end and to sort
of refill refill the well iswhat they call it.
You know, writing is generativework.
It's creative, generative workand there has to be a wellspring
within you from which thatcomes, the energy that you need
but also the sort of creativeimpulse, and that just takes a
little while for me to sort ofread, for that to reemerge so
(12:16):
that I can write the next book.
And these days I try to for atleast an hour or two per writing
day, but it doesn't alwayshappen, is I often either Zoom
or have a Teams call with one ofmy writer friends and we do.
They're not sprints becausewe're not trying to go fast, but
(12:37):
just like do work blocks withthem to keep each other company.
It's really, you know, writingcan be very isolating other
company.
It's really, you know, writingcan be very isolating and it's
really lovely to feel like youhave company, even if most of
the time you're just see theperson's face off to the side
and you're both muted.
But then you check in everyhalf hour or 45 minutes or hour
and say how did it?
go like you know, I'm reallystruggling with this scene, or
(13:00):
like I, I have this joke.
I think it's really funny andit it really helps me and it's
really joyful for me to check inwith friends, and I started
doing that this past couple ofyears and it really has
transformed how big an amount ofjoy I have.
In writing.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
That makes sense.
I'm remote and I do the samething with my coworkers.
We all sit on a Teams call andwe just work and chat together
and it really does help a lotand it keeps you focused.
I feel like I can focus morewhen I know that someone's
sitting right there too.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I mean there are times certainly it helps with
motivation and that if I werejust by myself I could manage to
fritter away the entire morningon YouTube like some YouTube
rabbit hole.
But if I'm there with a friendand they're like diligently
working away, I feel kind of badabout watching like a carpet
get cleaned on YouTube.
(13:53):
I have to.
I was like I gotta do something.
Fine, how did you find yourwriting group?
My first writing friend I made,close writing friend I made was
actually Mia Sosa.
Back in 20, I guess, 2014,.
We were.
(14:13):
We started out actually ascritique partners before either
one of us had agents, beforeeither one of us had published a
book.
We met on the Romance Writersof America sort of message board
.
She was looking for a critiquepartner and someone else had
actually snatched her up.
But I wrote anyway and said ifthings fall through, then you
(14:36):
know, please let me know.
And it turns out they did.
So I snatched her up and webecame critique partners and
then I even though it was a bitof a drive for me at the time at
the time I lived in Hagerstown,maryland, so I went to like the
Baltimore romance writers andthe Washington romance writers
things, but each of those was apretty long haul for me.
(14:57):
So I met some people lovelypeople through that, but mostly
online.
Mostly Twitter was where I metmost of my dear friends.
Particularly sort of the periodin the mid 20 teens mid to late
20 teens is where really I met.
I met most of the people who,other than my direct family like
(15:17):
that I love in my life, allcame, came through there.
So I'm very grateful to thattime period because it brought
me so many people that I love inmy life.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
It's amazing.
I'm glad that you could findthem through Twitter.
I've heard a lot of similarstories from earlier Twitter.
Of course, things change.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, I mean, it was a very Twitter was at the time.
You know, it was very much abook focused community,
hilarious, like, just hilariouspeople, and just lots of
conversation about books andabout writing and um, yeah, it
was really, it was really lovely, I don't know that.
Briefly it felt like blue skymaybe could become that, and
(15:59):
then the election happened andthen after that it's and I'm
still on blue sky and I enjoyedand there is bookish discussion
and I need to make sure that Iam more a part of that bookish
discussion.
But I think politics has sortof the urgency of the politics
has sort of overwhelmed thetimeline to a certain extent.
So it's not not quite the samereplacement and I, and from what
(16:22):
I've heard from friends, it'snot quite the same on threads
either.
It's because of the algorithm,some algorithm stuff with
threads.
So hopefully someday there willbe, uh, one, one social media
site to rule them all once againit'll be amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I found my little corner of bookstagram, but it is
definitely a a search, it's.
It's not like you can just goon bookstagram and yeah it's.
Yeah, it's a little bit more ofa search.
And then, of course, half thestuff happens in dms or like
little group chats there, soit's not as if it's not like
threads or blue sky where otherpeople can see you know, right
session too.
So, yeah, yeah, social mediasite will just come in, like you
(17:01):
said, and just make it, make itfun again.
It's, it's nice, whatever it'sfun yeah talking a little bit
more about second chance romance.
Can you tell me about yourprocess in creating the town of
harlots bay?
So I happen to know kind of ageneral like harlot-esque theme
from the fighting bluesies,mascot and doxy, diner and some
of the other really fun townestablishments.
(17:23):
So what kind of led you thatdirection?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I just thought it would be super fun to create a
town that was sort of born outof like in this case, you know,
17th century, like runaway women, like proto-feminists, and that
became sort of the town'sidentity.
They became a place whereespecially women, but also men,
(17:46):
non-binary people who had burneddown their lives in some
fashion come and sort of wereable to sort of rebuild their
lives in a supportive community.
And I just was really amused bythe thought that, you know, if
it was called Harlots Bay wasmeant to be a pejorative but the
people in the town embraced it,then they would sort of I
(18:12):
really like the idea ofreclaiming gendered insults.
So you have, like the townmotto is in bitches we trust and
like and all of that I try tomake, so like trumpet square,
like basically have the town bea joyful reclamation of gendered
insults, you know, in a waythat is sex positive and you
know positive toward like strongwomen.
(18:34):
So so that was really a joy andI, because my background isn't
my academic background, is inhistory I have this like lengthy
explanation of like the historyof the town, a lot of which was
in at first spite, and then Irealized no one cares, but you,
olivia, I have to take it out.
But I've got stuff in there likewhat happened during the french
(18:56):
and indian war in the town.
You will never know, but I knowbecause, again, no one cares
but me.
But I, I did.
I had a lot more nerdyexplanations for things like the
local shipyard economy, uh,anyway, back in the colonial
period, but then I was like noone.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
They just want the romance, olivia, just forget it
well, so I know that you were ahistory teacher.
How long did you teach um?
And I noticed that Athena was aburnt out teacher.
So I became a high schoolteacher and I taught for until I
(19:49):
moved to be with my husband inMaryland.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I taught for three years and it was really one of
the greatest joys of my life.
I still think about, I say,those kids.
I in my mind I'm like, I stillthink about those kids and they
were only 10 years younger thanme, so like they're in their
late 30s now.
They're not kids, but they wereand I still think about them.
(20:14):
I still think about a lot ofthem, a lot because I really
adored them.
Some of them I had for two yearsin world history and then US
history and but I was workinglike Athena, 70 to 80 hours a
week and I didn't know how tomuch like Athena that came.
A lot of that came from mypersonal experience.
(20:37):
I didn't know how to half assit Like I didn't know how to
make the workload manageable ina way that I would still feel
good about what I was giving tothe kids in my class the
attention they needed, the timethey needed, like the grading,
like attention to grading.
I knew I was going to begetting a new prep and I was
(20:58):
like I and I was going to bestarting over in a new state.
I would need to be licensed tothat new state.
I would be starting at thebottom of another school where I
probably would not have theclasses that I was best suited
to teach.
I was like, do I have it in me,as much as I love these kids and
I do and enjoy teaching, do Ihave it in me to start all over
at a new school with preps thatare probably not what I most
(21:21):
want to do, and work 70, 80hours a week when I have a new
husband and we plan to have achild soon, like, and I just
decided this doesn't make sense.
It didn't so so I did leave.
But my mom was a lifelongteacher, elementary school
teacher.
My aunt was a lifelong middleschool teacher and my years
(21:43):
teaching high school as much asI, they were brief, like they
really.
They meant a lot to me andcontinue to do so.
So Athena's background and sortof her feelings about teaching
were very much based on my ownthat makes sense um.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
I'm a former audio video production teacher at high
school, so I totally get whatyou mean adding another prep and
just all, all the things thatjust get stacked on top of each
other.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Right, it's, you know and I was teaching at the time
of the beginning of no ChildLeft Behind, so there was a lot
of new paperwork and a lot ofnew tests and a very much a
focus on sort of teaching totests rather than sort of
whatever happened to be on thetest.
That was what you had to focuson, maybe not as without being
(22:30):
as responsive to what the kidsin your specific class actually
found interesting, and it was.
You know, I think things haveonly gotten more difficult for
teachers since then.
I don't think I would fare wellin like modern schools, like
the schools today.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So my hat's off to teachers who were making it work
even now were you writing atthe time of teaching like a
little bit here and there, orhad you not started yet?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
it took every ounce of my energy to teach.
I mean, there was no the mentalload is just out of this world
yeah, yeah, I mean I wasteaching history and you know my
last couple of years I wasteaching AP history, so like a
lot of writing too, and then thepreps.
You know my first year ofteaching I probably got like
(23:22):
four or five hours of sleep anight for most of the year
because I was just constantlyrunning behind.
I mean I remember this kid inone of my world history classes
asking me like are we going towe're talking about, I think
maybe the transatlantic slavetrade?
And he was like Are we going totalk about Eastern Africa at
some point?
And I was like that's anexcellent question.
(23:43):
It all depends on the timing.
And the simple answer is Ididn't know further than a week
ahead.
I mean, I was doing, working ashard as I could, like I just
couldn't get any further aheadthan that, so like I had no
answer for it because I didn'tknow.
So no, there was no.
By the time I left, I think, Iwas like severely burned out
(24:06):
because, as much as I love thekids, it was just so much.
It was so much I did not startwriting until 2014.
So that was after I had done alot of other sort of part-time
usually jobs and then I wasworking at a public as a public
librarian, for I'd been workingthere for about five years when
(24:26):
I started writing.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
That makes sense.
Funny enough, I actually saw AtFirst Bite in my library the
other day.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
I love librarians.
I believe so strongly in theirrole, not just as like purveyors
of literature, but also for thecommunity they do.
Libraries are so central, youknow, as a meeting place in the
community, as a resource of notjust books and movies and
audiobooks, but often like toolsor creative things, and they're
(24:59):
a place that often teachescommunity members like helps me
members with, like jobapplications.
It's internet access.
It's a place to go when it'sincredibly hot or incredibly
cold and people need to stayalive.
I mean fundamentally likeunhoused people, but also people
who may not be able to affordheat or air conditioning.
(25:20):
Like it's there's so central tothe community.
I have great admiration forlibrarians and I honestly
believe a good chunk of thereason I have a career is
because of librarians.
Librarians, and I honestlybelieve a good chunk of the
reason I have a career isbecause of librarians.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
They have been so good to me and my book, so that
makes me very happy that it wasin the library oh yeah, you, you
are always stocked at ourlibrary thing and, like you said
, it is kind of one of the lastfree third spaces for the
community to be able to gatherin one spot.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, I mean, sometimes the things that happen
there were even back, you know,when I was 10 years ago.
I was sort of like there's oneperson who would like paint, I'm
like just don't, just, please,don't get paint over everything.
But like, yeah, it's a safe,you know, generally somewhat
mostly quiet space that is, youknow, a shelter that is a good
(26:10):
temperature and and hasresources for the community,
like they do such crucial workagreed.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
If carl and molly were having a movie night, what
would be their go-to?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
carl would probably have Molly choose, because
whatever she chose, his greatjoy would be like bitching about
it.
Then his joy would come likebasically bitching about
whatever she chose.
So that I mean otherwise, youknow, because they're meant to
(26:45):
be a little bit older, maybethey experienced a little bit of
mystery, science, theater 3000,is um, I don't know if you know
the premise, but it's theselike b movies that were not
great and then they had peoplesort of you see their
silhouettes at the front of thetheater there's a whole
backstory but that are sort ofmaking fun of the movie as it
goes on like and it's, the jokesrange from the most basic jokes
(27:10):
to like super esoteric, likejokes about literature and
movies, and I just I loved itand it would also suit their
sensibilities.
Like one of the the things wasreal pleasure for me writing the
book was that in some ways itis a bit of a grumpy, grumpy
book.
Carl is cantankerous, he isdefinitely grumpy.
She Carl is cantankerous, he isdefinitely grumpy.
She Molly is not cantankerous,but she is a little cynical.
(27:34):
So like I could see them likesitting there and taking a lot
of joy sitting in front of aterrible movie and like talking
about how terrible that movie isand dissecting the ways in
which it is terrible.
So I think that would be asource of a source of joy for
them.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I agree, and there are also these videos on
Instagram where a wife will showher husband like for the first
time, like she's the man or youknow, a really kind of and uh,
he'll make commentary on it thewhole time and I could
definitely see Carl doing that.
He could fit right in.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Okay, so Carl and Molly are carrying a lot of past
trauma, as we all do.
What draws you to writingcharacters that they just feel
like they have really highstakes to overcome, especially
after that prologue where yousee how many kind of like missed
chances they had Right.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
You know, I think to talk about more broadly for a
second is that I think differentsub-genres within romance have
different primary challenges.
Like, I think, historicalromance, one of the primary
challenges is actuallyresearching the history, you
know, like making sure.
I mean, there are wallpaperhistoricals where it's sort of
historical in a very modern waybut sort of, you know, learning
(28:56):
the essentials of the history ofthe time.
And then you have things likeparanormal romance or sci-fi
romance where a lot of it is theworld building.
Right, that's the fundamentalchallenge, I think in
contemporary romance.
You know, the world building.
If you're in the world as weunderstand it, that is less of a
challenge.
You don't have to learn thehistory.
(29:18):
But in today's sort of modernlandscape, if two people are
into each other, generallythere's not a lot keeping them
apart.
You know, like if two peopleare into each other and they're
both available, there's not alot.
There are a lot of reasonspeople don't end up together in
reality, but most of thosereasons would really frustrate
(29:39):
readers, you know.
And so I think you have to sortof figure well, why wouldn't
these people be together?
Sort of figure well, whywouldn't these people be
together?
And so in the case of Carl andMolly, then I mean you have
issues of maybe just timing andI mean I had high school crushes
(30:00):
that in retrospect I suspectthat crush was returned, but
neither one of us said anything.
And it's not that we were.
I mean, it's just your kids,right, and you're not thinking
you don't recognize when someoneelse is into you.
But in the case of you knowCarl, I sort of envisioned him
(30:20):
as someone who has like majorcommunication issues, not
because he doesn't feel things,but because he always felt
things too intensely and didn'twant to get made fun of for it
and so just sort of keeps it tohimself.
And then for Molly, she'ssomeone who's moved around so
(30:41):
much that it's hard for her tosort of make ties because she's
always having to uproot them.
So like what's the point Ifyou're just going to move again
in three months?
Why get attached to people?
And then, now that she's goingto stay, she's just unpracticed
in forming those ties and thenby the time they re-meet 20
years in the future.
(31:02):
She has also had like some veryfundamental betrayals in her
life.
The two men in her life thatshe has trusted the most and
loved the most of both, indifferent ways.
She's been punished fortrusting those men, so that you
know her sort of naturalinstinct to distance and the way
she's been trained to keep adistance has only been
(31:22):
reinforced by that.
And then Carl again, you know,has, basically he's never really
fully learned to sort ofcommunicate like effectively,
one thing that made him you knowthat I had to sort of grow into
and I know that it's probablyirritating for some readers his
sort of way, distinctive way ofspeaking and thinking, like that
(31:42):
he's not going to think in sortof long drawn out sentences,
he's going to avoid usingpronouns and that he he's gonna
speak and think in a differentsort of way than molly's going
to, because he's just not anatural born communicator or
someone who words is not how heshows.
(32:03):
How shows caring.
It is through actions that heshows caring.
Often his words are directlyopposed to his actions, where
he's telling you he doesn't careabout something or someone and
he's going out of his way toassist that person because he
does care.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
but he, the more loudly he protests, the more he
cares and I think molly at somepoint even says like carl never
met.
A sentence fragment I didn'tlike, like, yep, right, that's
carl in a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yes, but I mean, I think we all have sort of trauma
in our past one way or another.
If you, if people who don'tlike, I'm very happy for them,
but most of us at some point oranother.
And and again, you gotta, atsome point in contemporary
romance, you've got to explainwhy these people can't be
together unless they're enemiesor rivals or representatives of
(32:57):
different mafia families.
All of which could be true, allof which could be true.
But if they are sort of morenormal, like representative,
standard representatives ofpeople today, like why wouldn't
these people be like I'm intoyou, are you into me?
Yeah, yeah, I am.
And then they, and then theyhook up and live happily ever
(33:20):
after.
You'd have like well, that wasa nice pamphlet.
You gotta have a book.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's very true.
What aspects of Carl andMolly's personalities make them
the most fun or challenging towrite?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Carl.
I was sort of figuring out hiscadence of his speech for me,
like.
So that one thing that myeditor told me when I wrote alex
woodrow, the second book in thespoiler alert series.
She said that often whenthere's a side character who's
very vivid, like has a reallylarge personality, when they get
(34:01):
their own book in a series,that personality becomes like
muted, that they are essentiallylike standardized to like
standard hero or standard femalemain character, that like the
things that made them so uniquesort of get toned down and she's
like.
But that's not the reason peoplelove them is because of that.
(34:24):
But it is challenging then towrite a big personality.
So one of my sort of bigchallenges to myself in writing
All the Feels was not to tonedown Alex, and one of my
challenges with writing SecondChance Romance was not to tone
down Carl, and so I tried tosort of you know his even in his
thoughts and in his speech,make sure that he is the person
(34:47):
that he is in book one, and sothat was a little bit of a
challenge.
I think if you read one pageand either their points of view,
either carl or molly, I thinkyou will know within a sentence
or two who it is, even if itweren't labeled, because you can
tell just from the way thatthey phrase things who it is,
(35:07):
and that was part of my goal isnot to have generic characters,
for their personality to comethrough, even in descriptions or
in their thoughts.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
True and that was a really good point.
Whenever you said that, I waslike, oh my gosh, that is so
true, that is so true.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think the challenge is really having
two uncommunicative in variousways two uncommunicative
characters, making sure that thereader hopefully cares about
them and can understand why theywould be hesitant to just lay
their heart on the table and belike.
This is how I feel.
Do you feel the same way thatyou would understand why that is
(35:46):
not that easy for them?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
So whenever you were crafting them and trying to make
sure that they had differentvoices, did you do a lot of prep
work before to make sure, ordid you like while you were
writing, you were just reallycognizant of like OK, this is
Carl.
This is how he's going to think.
This is how he's going to talk.
This is Molly.
This is how she's going tothink.
This is how she's going to talk.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
this is Molly, this is how she's going to think,
this is how she's going to talk.
I would say it's the firstscene from his POV.
It's the one that I had to workhardest on just to establish
where I you know, because if Iwrote it the way I wrote Molly's
, it wouldn't make sense for hischaracter.
It just it would be like who isthis?
It doesn't sound like Carl, andso, you know, usually it'll
(36:26):
take me a little bit longer towrite the first POV scene,
unless it's very clear in mymind.
This is what they they soundlike, because Alex again, in all
the fields, very clear what hesounded like, for whatever
reason, from the beginning.
But you know, carl, because itwas so different from how I
usually write, because I lovecompound sentences, man, I love
adverbs, I love adject write.
(36:47):
Because I love compoundsentences, man, I love adverbs,
I love adjectives, I lovecompound sentences noticed in
the best way.
Yes, I love pronouns.
Like you know, took me a day ortwo to sort of figure out okay,
this is his cadence, this issort of how he's gonna sound.
So, yeah, I would say it was alittle challenging the first day
(37:07):
or two, but then you sort ofyou're like, well, this is how
he sounds.
It's sort of like if you'reliving with someone, you kind of
can figure out like this is,this is how they speak, and so
that became easier prettyquickly.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And, of course, carl.
Definitely Carl had the help ofmatthew and athena kind of
helping him along to get him tocommunicate, um, and they just
kind of add a like fun, chaoticand cute element to it.
Um, so are there any othercharacters that you really want
to revisit or develop further inthe series?
I know you're talking about thetwo the rival sex shop owners.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I picture them across the street from each other and
I pictured and I'm not again, Idon't know if this will ever
happen owners, I picture themacross the street from each
other and I pictured and I'm notagain, I don't know if this
will ever happen, but I picturethat one of them has like more
like the high-end classic toysand that the other one has sort
of like the more fun, more likeless high quality but like more
features, like the sadie brazen,all these things like that.
(38:07):
And the other one was sort oflooked down anyway.
So, yes, maybe at some point,and then definitely, um, these
because I really, you know, Ireally enjoyed writing her.
I think the Sadie Brazen partof things I tried.
I have tried to this point notto write a writer, because I
think it can get very selfreferential for authors to write
(38:31):
writers that it can be a littlenavel gazey, like in meta and
stuff and I and so I wasactually not originally I did
not intend for Sadie Brazen tobe in the town, but my writer
friends were like, oh no, sheneeds to be in the town.
So I was like, fine, that's,that's what I did.
(38:53):
So yeah, I think, I think Lisedefinitely, but I definitely.
I have so much love for Matthewand Athena, and now Carl and
Molly too, that I mean they'll,they'll show up at some point
around the edges of the otherstories.
Uh, in this case, you know, thepeople Carl is closest to in his
life other than Charlotte, youknow, and her kids and his own
(39:14):
family are Matthew and Athenaand well, and the Nasty Wenches.
He actually has quite a largecommunity which he only really
realizes after he was supposedto be dead.
So this is sort of the secondchance.
Romance is also sort of hissecond chance to sort of reframe
, sort of his relationships withthe people in his life, you
(39:35):
know, and sort of reframe in away that he allows himself,
allows them into his heart fullyand then is fully in their
lives too.
So that's part of what thesecond chance is about too is
for him as well as for for thetwo of them.
But uh, but yeah, but they, he'sclose.
(39:57):
Matthew's, his best friend,athena, has sort of grew up
together right and is one of thepeople, the person that he is
the most willing to admitvulnerability to, because
Matthew is, it's such asweetheart like he knows Matthew
would never take advantage ofthat vulnerability to hurt him.
So he is more willing to bemore, more vulnerable with
(40:18):
Matthew because Matthew is likea solemn.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It just would never occur to Matthew to like try to
hurt carl in any way and, like Ithink, athena even says, um,
something about matthew beingher guide to carl and loves her
under like the carl cheat sheetis, is matthew, so she can sort
of figure out.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
and you know, and she sort of has a shortcut into
being in carl's life becausecarl felt so guilty about firing
her, like in the my originaldraft of the book, the first
draft there's a longerconversation about the fact that
he feels terrible about havinghad to fire her in the first
book through no fault of her own, but that his guilt over that
(41:03):
meant that he kind of felt likehe owed her, that he wasn't just
like you're bothering me leave,like that.
He kind of felt like he owedher, that he wasn't just like
you're bothering me leave, thathe felt like he kind of owed her
to be a little more patientthan he normally is and sort of
allow her into his life, evenapart from the fact that he
loves her for herself but alsoloves her for how she is with
Matthew, because he really wantsgood things for his best friend
(41:24):
and and sees that in her.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And I love how well her and Molly get along.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yes, and I think Athena's ebullience and like
sort of openness is somethingthat I think would be really
lovely for Molly long term.
You know that Athena would justsort of drag Molly along with
(41:52):
her into adventures and intorelationships and in a way that
Molly probably needs.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
I agree on the aspect of Lee's being um a writer.
At least her genre is so kindof out there that I I feel like
it.
It probably helps, becauseyou're like, well, I'm not
necessarily writing that exactsame thing, so I am not, it is I
.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
You know, I read the entire gamut of romance.
I read kisses only.
I read erotic romance.
I read, you know, paranormal.
I read historical.
I read everything, mystery,obviously, you know, uh, mystery
romance and so forth, but Idon't write the entire gamut,
and it was, but I do, again, Ido read it.
So I was like, well, maybeBrazen's like works are not
(42:40):
fully divorced from things thathave been on my Kindle in the
past.
Now, admittedly, I don't thinkI have a like a cryptid loch
ness monster dom on there a lotI was.
So when I came up with thetitle loch ness master, I was so
pleased with myself I can'teven tell you how, like all my
(43:02):
friends who talk with me, thatnext week I'm like guess what
title I came up with like, yes,yes, very nice, olivia, I was
very happy.
And then, of course, this one.
I had a lot of fun with the ideathat sadie brazen was
potentially flirting with darkromance.
But you find out that maybe notentirely, but with my kangaroo,
(43:24):
my kidnapper, and one of mygreat joys in writing is coming
up with fake, ridiculousintellectual property.
So in this spoiler alert series, coming up with not just the,
uh, the books that that the tvseries is based on, but also all
of like marcus's terrible,terrible films that he's made,
(43:45):
like all the horrible scriptsand things.
It was just such joy for me andso that basically serves.
Sadie Brazen's books serve thesame and the books that the
Nasty Wenches read as a wholeserve sort of that.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
They scratch that itch for me, which I appreciate
I love that that makes it fun,yeah, so what is one deleted
scene or moment that you kind ofthought about including but
didn't make it, um, into thefinal book?
And we've talked about a few,but if there's another one that
you can think of, I mean, I,originally there was one.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I had thought that I might write one more sort of
trust building exercise scene,like the blindfolded putt-putt
maybe.
But then because they now putthe corporate magazine he got
out of corporations monthly, um,I thought, uh, I I was thinking
(44:41):
it would be hilarious like how,in eps, like the blindfolded
putt-putt would be.
But then after the escape roomI was like, no, we're good.
I mean, in the escape room Iwill tell you was largely based
on my own escape room.
My husband and I did an escaperoom when we were a few years
ago, we were in hawaii.
We did an escape room there andmy husband I mean he's a very
(45:05):
he's doc.
I mean he's a, he has adoctorate, he in physics, phds
in thermodynamics, right, smartman, like, and I don't feel like
I'm that slow.
We were so bad.
We were so bad.
They started putting stuff upon the screen like look under
the rug.
Because it was clear that wewere not getting anywhere.
(45:28):
And when they did it, it verymuch was similar to what
happened when they came at theend.
They're like, and if you didthis, like it took 10 minutes
for them to go through the stepsand then they opened up like
there were two rooms we hadn'teven gotten to.
I'm like, oh, we did so bad, wewere so bad at and I think
we're better communicating thanCarl and Molly, we're just
(45:49):
really bad at escape rooms.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
So it was fun to sort of um, to reimagine that as as
Carl and Molly's like failurerather than mine but I will say,
with escape rooms, sometimesit's hard because I feel like
you can go the super in-depthroute when it's really not that
in-depth.
So then you're going on thiswhole, like I think it's going
to be this thing, this thing andthis thing, but it was really
(46:12):
just the simplest thing that youcould have thought of the whole
time part of it was just simpleincompetence on my part, but
also I think I overintellectualized some stuff
where I'm like I wonder whatthis implies.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
About the mystery, where really you're just like oh
, let's see if those numbersthat they found underneath the
rug work.
On something like where there'sno real meaning, it's just like
you're just looking forsomething that might work.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
But I think it was mostly just that we were slow
well, I love how, um in the bookat least Molly's kind of making
those connections um whenevershe's comparing Carl to her
ex-husband and realizing that hedidn't get mad and he didn't do
those things kind of instantly.
So I thought that was veryastute of her to kind of realize
that they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
You know, we are used to a certain like.
I remember when I met myhusband and there was something
like some connection at the backof the TV that we had that need
to be I need to undo it and itwasn't coming undone.
So I got out pliers and I undidit.
(47:14):
But when I undid it I likebasically ripped out the wiring.
I ruined the TV just throughbest of intentions, but really
just.
And I remember being like I wasin tears.
I was so I mean we were justdating, like we weren't, we
weren't married yet, and I wasjust in tears, like terrified
that he was going to be just soangry at me.
(47:37):
And I just remember he was justlike, oh, it's a thing you
didn't mean to, it's a thing itcan be replaced, it's it's fine,
and it just was not.
He was like you know it's it'sfine and it just was not.
He was like you know, he wasmore unhappy that I was upset
that then that this had happenedand it was so different from my
experience sort of, um, youknow, either from where you grow
(47:59):
up or you know, with your ownfamily, birth family or previous
relationships and I justremember being like, oh, thank,
thank goodness, Like that's it,that in it's that sort of moment
from Molly where, like she's,like this is the way what would
have happened in my previouslife with my ex husband, that's
not, that's not how this isgoing to play out and like that
(48:22):
can be a very powerful moment.
So, even though theycommunicate terribly and fail
miserably at the escape room,you're right, Like it is still a
very telling moment for Mollyas she begins to sort of
understand that some of thethings that she's most afraid of
experiencing again won't happenagain with Carl.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
She can definitely be safe with him.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Is there anything else that you would like readers
to know about Second ChanceRomance?
Speaker 2 (48:52):
I would say that the scene at the end at the prom
well, it's not prom, it is their20-year reunion dance was one
of my most fun experienceswriting from beginning to end
Because I went full.
You know I love all those liketeen romances, like movies of
like the early 2000s and soforth and I was like what would
(49:16):
be kind of fun to sort of harkenback to this that makes sense
for like late 30s people like.
But I just had so much fun withthat scene, so like I hope that
when people get to that part ofthe book toward the end of the
book that it's just really funfor them.
I hope the whole book is funfor them, but I I hope they look
forward to it and I hope thatthey appreciate the, the theme,
(49:38):
the under the sea, that was sofun.
I was really looking forward tothat.
The whole writing the wholebook.
I was like I cannot wait tillthis.
I cannot wait like to make it.
I just love the idea that youknow the both hackneyed theme
for like a dance under the seathat someone took it like way
too like nerds took it way tooliterally.
(49:58):
Just make it, because you knowwe had just when I wrote it.
I mean that horrible tragedywith the the sub, it just
happened.
But there was all this stuffabout like what is it like under
the sea?
And I'm like under the sea notromantic, so like you know, all
these creatures that are downlike how like unfriendly to
(50:21):
human life, it is down there andI was just like it would be
hilarious if you had people likebe like this is what it's
really like under the sea andthen have that like kelp
streamers anyway instead of yeah, like glitter and exactly
exactly.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
I love that.
Well, thank you, uh for joiningme today, olivia, and that's it
.
Thanks for listening to where Ileft off a bookish podcast.
You can visit Olivia's sitethrough the link in the show
notes and you can purchase hernovels anywhere.
Books are sold and secondchance romance releases November
25th 2025 thank you so much forchatting with me, kristen.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
I had the most lovely time.
It was the best.
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