December 18, 2025 • 30 mins
Thank you to Harper Collins and Author Robyn Green for talking to me about The Dramatic Life of Jonah Penrose.
Author Robyn Green:
- Purchase The Dramatic Life of Jonah Penrose
- Follow her on Instagram
- Website
Books discussed in this episode:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls, and you'relistening to Where I Left Off, a
Bookish Podcast.
And today I'm joined by authorRobin Green, and we are talking
about her debut, The DramaticLife of Jonah Pinrose.
Thank you so much for joining metoday, Robin.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to talk to you.
Yay, me too.
So the first question that Ialways ask every author, because
(00:29):
authors just give really goodbook recommendations, is what
are you currently reading rightnow?
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
I I literally this morning started the audiobook of
We Bury Our Bones in theMidnight Soil.
So I'm I'm only like about fiveminutes in.
I don't know what that equatesto in pages, but so far so good.
But previously what did I Ilistened to a lot of audiobooks
because I just find it so mucheasier for me than sitting down
(00:57):
and reading.
Um and I just read, is it theyeah, the Road Trip by Beth
O'Leary?
And I'm probably a bit late withher books.
Um I just started reading likeeverything she's done this year,
but I love them.
She she makes the bestcharacters, she's great.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Do you listen to books on like one time speed or
do you kind of pump up the pacea little bit?
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
So if I get out a book that says it's about 24
hours long, I will have it onabout 1.75 just because I like
to listen to at least three orfour a month, and it's not gonna
happen if it's that long.
Um, but if they're on theshorter side, I will have it
(01:39):
normal speed.
But I think I've got so used tothem talking so quickly now when
it's normal speed, it soundsvery, very slow.
Yep.
It sounds like their mouth islike full of rocks or something
a little bit, yeah.
Yeah, it's like why are youbeing so slow?
I don't need you that slow.
But yeah.
Where do you tend to get youraudiobooks from?
I get mine off Libby and like mylocal library app.
(02:03):
I didn't know you could getaudiobooks from the library, and
my friend told me, and itliterally changed my life, it
was the best thing ever.
I'd been I still get them onAudible for the ones that aren't
on the library app, but beingable to access so many titles on
there was like Christmas whenshe told me that.
It was amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
And I don't know if they have it where you are, but
if your library happens to havehoopla, you might want to check
into that as well.
It's kind of like a Libby, butyou get like 15 credits a month,
and all of the audiobooks thatare on there um are available
for instant download, so youdon't have to wait like you do
with Libby.
You can just go at like anypace.
(02:43):
Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing.
And and they have so many.
Like my library, as soon asBrimstone by Callie Hart came
out, it was there that day.
Like all of the books arehitting like that day, and you
can just listen to it right awayon pub day.
And it is it is wild, but it isreally, really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
That is literally the dream.
I hate it when I click on it,put it on hold.
It's like it you've got 16 weeksto wait.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Like, oh my gosh, no.
And then it always comes aboutat like the worst possible time,
and you're like, no, I don'thave time for this right now,
but I wanted it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
You'll get four books come through all at once,
and then you have to prioritize.
And I can't do that because Iwant to listen to them all.
And it yeah, yeah.
That sounds amazing.
I'm going to look into that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Yeah, a lot of libraries have been adding on
hoopla and libby.
Like mine actually has both, soI can check and see uh which one
it's on, and then use both.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Oh, so you've just made the Libby experience even
better.
Incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Audiobooks are just better when they're through the
library, if you can.
They are, they are, and ifthey're there.
If you can find them and if theyhave them, yeah.
Absolutely, I agree.
Oh, one more random aside beforeI get on to the next question.
But um, for some reason, so likeTJ Maxx, Marshalls, those kind
of overstock stores have beenhaving books, and I found a
(04:01):
signed copy the other day ofBury Our Bones in the Midnight
Soil.
And I I know, I looked and itsaid on the little sticker, like
signed, and I thought, nah,that's probably just a misprint.
There's no way that it wouldjust be like sitting in a store
like this, and I opened it andit was her signature.
No way!
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Oh my god.
So I on a tangent now, I went toa charity shop and they had a
like five books for a pound,which is insane anyway.
And they had a fairy lootedition of a book.
And I oh my gosh, I can'tremember what it is now.
Juna Putton Thorn.
That is so cool.
And it had the sprayed edges,and I opened it and it was
(04:38):
signed.
And I wish 20p for this book.
Obviously, I got five for apound because who wouldn't?
But this the things you find isincredible.
And I love a signed book, it'slike a little gem.
SPEAKER_01 (04:50):
Me too.
I also have a signed book.
See, that's just more um morereason to go searching in all
those kind of random places forbooks because you just never
know what you'll find.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
You never know.
And you I love a charity shopanyway, and I found like some
really gorgeous, like oldeditions, like of Charles
Dickens books, you know, likethe books that look old, they're
like leather-boundish lookingwith gold print.
It's like, oh my gosh, they'reso beautiful just as objects.
So yeah, I'm always up for alittle rummage through shops.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
I was gonna say, I totally agree.
I was in a vintage bookstore theother day, and they had like the
old copies of like Nancy Drewthat I'd never seen before and
like Agatha Christie's.
I was like, oh my gosh, they'reso cool to look at.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
No, they're lovely.
I love them older, like justthey have a certain look about
them and they're so nostalgic.
They're just nice to have.
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
As you can tell, we really like to decorate our
bookshelves with all the goods.
Um, so what can you tell usabout your current work in
progress?
So is the dramatic life of JonahPenrose is that a standalone or
is it the first book in aseries?
Because I could see it goingeither way by the way that it
ended.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
Um, it is a standalone.
Okay.
What's been nice is the readersthat I have spoken to have been
like, it would be really nice tohave something with Bastian and
seeing like what happens withhim in New York, maybe something
from Dexter's point of view,which I mean I'd love to write
it, but who knows?
At the moment, Jonah is astandalone.
unknown (06:20):
Perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
And what are you currently working on uh right
now?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
I don't know how much I'm allowed to say.
Okay, you can keep it veryvague.
Yeah, it's another rom-com, it'sanother queer rom com.
With Jonah, I feel like Londonand the setting of London is
very much a character withinitself.
Uh, with this new one, thecharacter's been pulled from
London.
Uh so he's been pulled out ofthat setting and put somewhere
(06:47):
completely different.
So so far it's been reallydifferent to write.
I come from kind of a rural-ishplace anyway.
So, although London, I loveLondon and everything that it
brings, it's nice to writesomething which was a bit more
closer to home.
So that's probably about as muchas I can say at the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Whenever you come up with new ideas for uh books, do
you have like a list that you'repulling from, or does it just
kind of hit you at random timesand then you just run with that
when you know you have like anidea that you want to go forward
with?
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
I think it really depends.
My agent, bless her heart, hashad so many emails from me
going, I've got this idea, I'vegot this idea, and she's great
because she will listen toeverything I spew at her, and it
could be the most random things,and she she's good in that
(07:41):
she'll be like, No, this no, no,this is ridiculous, just leave
it alone, or she'll be reallyencouraging and say, Yeah, go
for it.
So I do have a kind of catalogueof things that I want to write,
but it's about prioritising, Ithink, which ones will come
next, which would follow onnicely from Jonah, because you
(08:02):
know, that that was my debut,and you you do want to.
I personally didn't want to steptoo far out of that kind of
world I'd created there.
So when looking at writingsomething else, it was very much
what would go hand in hand.
And although I had loads andloads of ideas written down, I
had a meeting with my agent andsaid, I've got this idea, I
(08:25):
haven't got any characters inmind yet, it's very loose, and
she was just like, Go for it,and it's somehow now shaped into
something which hopefullyactually has a plot.
So we'll see how it goes.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
Well, yay, I'm excited to read it.
What does your typical writingday look like?
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
So my writing day has changed so much.
The week that Jonah came out, Ifinished my job and I started a
new job.
So it's a bit of a wild week forme, and with my old job, I had a
lot more time to just sit andwrite.
I'd have dedicated days where Iwas at my desk writing, whereas
(09:06):
now I am at work all the time.
So that's kind of changed, butI'm more of an evening writer
anyway, which is rather useful.
I hear some authors they get uptwo hours before anybody else,
so they can write, and I admirethem because I could I'd
probably cry if I had to get upat 5 a.m.
So yeah, I'm more of an eveningwriter.
(09:28):
So when I do sit down, I wouldalways have a cup of tea.
A cup of tea keeps me going.
I technically should be where Iam right now in my office, but I
do like to have my laptop on thesofa with my blankets and dogs.
So that's kind of my routine,although it's it's changing at
the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
I was gonna say that's completely different to
try to get used to that andswitch it around.
And I'm sure it's hard with thecreative process to have that
big of a change and figure outhow it looks now.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Yeah, and it was it was weird because when I I got
my new job and I was so excitedabout it, there was this voice
in the back of my head thinking,you're gonna have less time to
write now, and you've you youknow, you've actually got a book
out now.
It's not like you're doing itjust because you enjoy doing it,
you know, that you've got a bookand hopefully have another book,
(10:15):
and then suddenly I'm taking onthis whole massive new role.
But so far, so good.
I mean, I'm only two weeks in,so we'll see.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
Okay.
Well, getting a little bit moreinto the dramatic life of Jonah
Pinrose.
So, as you were developing theidea for the story, was it Jonah
and Dexter that came to youfirst, or did kind of the
overall premise come to youfirst?
SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
It was definitely the premise with this one.
I remember having a chat with myagent about what I wanted to
write.
She suggested romance to mebecause it wasn't actually a
genre I ever thought aboutwriting in.
I enjoy reading it, uh, but itwasn't, I just was like, well, I
don't think I could writeromance.
It just felt like it was out ofmy wheelhouse.
(11:00):
And she said, Look, write aboutsomething you love, and for me
that was the theatre.
So it felt really easy suddenlycoming up with this kind of
theatre that they could work in.
And I remember being online andI saw an article about a big
(11:20):
Broadway actor who had gotengaged to someone he'd worked
with previously, and I was like,oh, that's amazing! Like,
imagine all the relationshipsthat could flourish in that
world, and so that idea camefirst, and then the characters
came second.
Whereas if I'm honest, it'susually the other way around for
me.
I have a little character in mymind who's like, put me in
(11:42):
something, but no, it wasdefinitely the world this time.
SPEAKER_01 (11:45):
That's really interesting.
And what is your like what isyour favourite show?
Oh my goodness.
I know it's hard to pinpointlike one immediately off the top
of your head.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Yeah, there's and you know what, there's been so
many amazing ones that I've seenin the last couple of years as
well that I feel like the thingsthat are being put on in here in
the UK, I know that Broadwayhave got some incredible things
as well, but every time I go tosee something, I'm in love with
that show when I'm sitting therewatching it.
But cabaret is my favourite.
(12:18):
However, I really love HadesTown, and every time I go to see
Hades Town, I think to myself,this is my favourite, but then
I'll go see Cabaret again.
And I saw Cabaret again inSeptember, and when we left, I
said to my friend, like, I justdon't think there's anything
quite as good as this,especially on the West End.
(12:41):
It's just the current productionof it is so good.
So I've I go between the two,but I love next to normal.
See, now you've got me startedon shows, like there's so many
amazing ones, amazing ones, andTwo Strangers, Carrie Cake
Across New York.
It's closed here now, but it'sjust open on Broadway.
If anyone listening is thinkingabout going to watch that, go
(13:04):
and watch it because it isamazing, honestly, incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Yeah, whenever I see a show, I tend to try to like
specifically not read up on whatit's truly about or watch any of
the YouTube videos of the song.
So that way, whenever I go in,it's like my like I'm trying to
figure it out as I'm watching.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Oh see, I'm I'm the opposite.
I so I've just started listeningto the chess uh recording, and I
don't have a clue what that showis about, but I'm like, these
songs are really good.
I think you know it's actuallyabout chess, it's actually about
chess.
So if it does come here, I'llwatch it.
At least I'll know the songs,but who knows what it's I mean,
(13:43):
I'm assuming it is about chess.
It's the clue in the title, butwho knows?
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
It's fun either way.
So Jonah and Dexter, um, likeyou said, as you're trying to
come up with this idea, havingtwo male actors working side by
side, sometimes they're kind ofup for the same roles.
And especially in this book,they uh they're up for some of
the same roles.
So, in your opinion, what makesJonah and Dexter such great
(14:12):
rivals throughout the book?
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
I think that because they're both so evenly matched,
I don't feel like one actuallyhas a step up on the other when
it comes to the professionalworld, because that's where
their rivalry has stemmed from.
Um, you know, being on the WestEnd, being in shows.
I wouldn't say that Jonah ismore talented than Dexter, or
(14:36):
vice versa.
And I think that that's whythey're quite, you know, good at
arguing with each other, becauseyou can't have Dexter, although
he does, doesn't he, say like,you've done this wrong, you've
done that wrong.
Because actually on paper,Jonah's the one who's won an
award, you know, Dexter hasn't.
(14:56):
But and I think that's such agood dynamic as well, because
when it comes to the theatreworld, everybody up on stage is
there because they're talented,because they've worked to get
there.
And I mean, I'm I'm not an onstage actor, I've always been
more behind the scenes withthings, but I can't imagine how
(15:18):
competitive it must be and howyou know repetitive it is going
for auditions, not getting them,and then seeing maybe the same
person getting those roles youwant to get, it must be soul
destroying, and especially whenit's obviously a career people
are passionate about, you'renever gonna go into a role like
that unless you really love itand you want to be there every
(15:41):
night performing.
So yeah, I think that's why theythey are good rivals because if
they were gonna have a physicalfight, if you're looking at it,
if it was a fantasy, one of themdoesn't have more magic than the
other, and they're both thesame.
So I think that's why it workswell for them.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
And even though um Jonah does win an award, I feel
like Dexter has a lot of kind oflike fame behind him a little
bit too, which matches them evenmore, kind of just in different
spheres in addition to theirtalent.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Yeah, it's like little extra things that they're
like, oh well, I've got this,and I well, I've got more
followers than you.
So, but again, it's like when itcomes down to it, between those
two, it's the casting director'sdecision.
Doesn't matter if you've got100,000 followers or if you have
an Olivia Award.
I'm sure an Olivia Awardactually probably helps.
(16:32):
Um, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
And I'm sure it's so much just like you said, like
what that director wants thatday or what they're envisioning
for that character.
So if you don't fit that, it'ssometimes you can't help it.
It's just, but that would be sohard to constantly have to go
through that process day in andday out.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
Definitely, and that you see it when they do casting
announcements for shows, likeyou'll read the comments and
people be like, Well, why ifthey cast so and so or so and so
would be better?
And it's like, well, you don'tknow what this production's
gonna be like, what they'relooking for, what somebody did
in that audition room.
Um, it's very easy when you'renot there to have an opinion on
(17:13):
you know who would be right forwhat, but I think that's also
part of the industry, and actorshaving to go out there and
almost prove themselves, whichis sad because you know they're
there for a reason, but it isjust the the nature of you know
that that kind of job, and notyou know, they'll have a
(17:35):
contract for however many monthsand then have to find something
else.
I must I I mean I I'm in awe ofthem, honestly.
I couldn't I couldn't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
So can you tell me a little bit more about your
background in the theatre?
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
So when I was younger, I I wanted to be on
stage, and that's one showing meheadlining shows.
And I was when I was little, Iwas in my local like dramatic
society.
I got to be in a Vita, which wasamazing.
I remember getting time offschool to actually do that, and
I felt very important.
Like, I don't get to go toschool this week because I'm in
(18:09):
a show, and yeah, it was great,but as I got older, I realised I
lacked the talent to actuallydancing, act.
Wasn't actually really my thing,but I loved the theatre world,
so I knew I wanted to be in itsomewhere.
So in more recent years, Iworked before actually doing
(18:32):
more theatre-y things on photoshoots.
I'd do wig styling, hairstylingup until kind of COVID, really,
which obviously put a stop toeverything like that, and then
afterwards I went more intocostume design and curation,
specifically for the theatre,which was amazing.
(18:52):
But it felt so poignant whenJonah came out that my book
about theatre was the week Ileft a theatre job.
But yeah, so I feel like I had agood behind the scenes insight
to how the world works from acostume perspective, anyway,
which is why I wanted Cherie inthere because although I don't
do makeup, I know that hustleand bustle of like, you need to
(19:13):
be on stage, why are you notready?
Why have you not got all yourcostume on?
And I felt like it put me in agood place to be able to write
this book.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
I agree.
And I thought that was fun withher in there and so many scenes
taking place, like in thedressing room and behind the
scenes and talking about thecostuming of every um every
production.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
Yeah, it was it was nice to put that in because with
some books I've I've worked on,I've had to do so much research
because I just don't know enoughabout something.
And I like to be able to thinkthat when somebody reads my
book, actually that is the wayit works.
It's not gonna be a hundredpercent with everything, but
when it came to costuming andthings like that, I wanted it to
(19:51):
be accurate because that isactually something I know about.
So that was quite important tome.
I can tell it it it's very itseems very realistic so.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
Thank you for writing it.
unknown (20:01):
No, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:03):
So did one of the characters come to you more
clearly than the other when youstarted writing?
Like was Jonah a little biteasier than Dexter, or Dexter a
little bit easier than Jonah?
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Jonah was definitely easier.
I think because it's from I meanit's in third person, but it's
close to Jonah.
So right off the bat, he wasjust there.
And Dexter, I think because he'snot in it from the get-go, was a
little bit easier to kind ofcreate him more in the
(20:33):
background.
I had Bastion there and Cheriewith Jonah very early on.
Um, but Dexter had an idea ofhim, but in a way I think that
worked because I wrote the bookchronologically.
I know some people are able towrite things here, and I don't
know how they do it.
It's I wouldn't even know whereto begin.
But so this idea that Jonah hadof Dexter was kind of the same
(20:56):
idea I had of Dexter before Ireally knew him, before I'd
wrote him.
And I think that works when itcomes to rivalry because the way
Jonah was anticipating thismeeting of Dexter was weirdly
how I was feeling about writinghim because I didn't know him.
I just knew of he's got to bethis, he's got to be this
talented guy, he's got to bethis threat.
(21:18):
I actually think he was well,and Mari was the last character
I kind of made, but it wasDexter, who was an enigma, I
think, for the longest time.
SPEAKER_01 (21:30):
And that makes sense with the whole kind of yoga
scene and you know how Jonah'strying to figure out how
Dexter's gonna play it, and Iwon't go into any more because I
don't want to spoil, but thatthat whole kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
Yeah, and I think that that's quite fun as a
writer.
Before writing Jonah, I wassomeone who didn't plan, and I
think it drove my agent crazybecause she'd say, So what's the
you know overall synopsis ofwhat you're writing?
I don't know.
We'll see.
So but actually with Jonah, Idid do a plot plan, but still
(22:07):
not having the ins and outs ofeach character makes it
interesting for me as a writerbecause oh Dexter's just gone
and done this.
Why did he do that?
I don't know, but then I can doa reaction to that while
writing, which is really fun.
That's a really good point.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
I never thought about it that way.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
You never know with these characters, they go rogue
sometimes.
I could see that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
And how did you balance uh really their
competitiveness with kind of thevulnerability as they learn to
open up to each other throughoutthe book when the romance is
developing?
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
I felt it was really important to, with a romance,
not make the romance their soledriving factor.
I think when I've read romancebooks, it's always more
interesting when the romanceisn't defining them.
So with both characters, Iwanted there to be something
behind the way they're acting.
(23:02):
So with Jonah, his vulnerabilitycomes from actually isn't very
confident at all when it comesto himself.
He can get up on a stage andperform when he's playing a
character, but when he'shimself, he lacks that
confidence.
And then he also has, again,without going into too many
spoilers, a lot going on withhis family.
And I felt that it was soimportant to create a life for
(23:27):
him outside of something he wasdeveloping with Dexter.
And although Dexter's isn'texplored as much, he's also got
his own things going on, his ownfamily things, his own
insecurities.
I like to think it makes moreinteresting characters and helps
balance them out.
It gives them a more rounded,realistic kind of reason for the
(23:48):
way they are because nobody'sperfect, no matter how much they
want to be.
And I think it's reallyimportant to see characters with
flaws because it's that's theway life is, and I think that's
what I really want to do withlike balancing out that rivalry
with things that people do haveto deal with in life, and
(24:09):
there's no guidebook for how youdeal with that.
So getting to explore that wasreally quite poignant for me as
a writer to be able to look atthose aspects and put them into
words.
SPEAKER_01 (24:21):
And I feel like they were able to kind of call on
each other and say, like, hey, Ineed to know this, and like,
hey, I need you to do this.
And so at least they kind ofpulled each other into that
space, even though at times itkind of seemed like they were
dragging their heels a littlebit because they didn't want to
open up because it was hard, orlike whatever Dexter wouldn't
say wherever he went um on theweekends and stuff like that.
(24:43):
And so it was kind of nice thatthey kind of taught each other
and got to communicate with eachother to figure out um how to
get there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Yeah, and I think when people have asked me like
what your characters like, I'mlike, they're both idiots who
don't know how my how tocommunicate with each other
because actually, if they didknow how to do that, one, there
wouldn't be a book, but two,it's about learning and
developing as people, you know.
As humans, we carry pastexperiences with us, whether we
(25:14):
mean to or not, and can put themonto other people.
And Dexter and Jonahunfortunately fall foul to that,
but I think that they do makeeach other better in the end.
SPEAKER_01 (25:25):
What is one moment in the book that always makes
you smile, maybe when you wroteit or as you're reading it back?
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
I really love some of the scenes with Jonah's dad,
which again I don't want to talkabout in case somebody's
listening who hasn't read it,but there's some very sad stuff
with Jonah's dad, but thenthere's some memories there,
which I just think as you getolder, because I'm in my 30s
now, and you can, you know, byno means am old, I mean I hope
(25:52):
not, but you can look at yourchildhood and remember like
these certain magical things,and I remember those things from
my childhood.
So being able to give Jonahthose memories as well was
really nice, and even at the endof the book, when he's kind of
looking out at the theatre andhe sees someone in the audience,
that was really nice to mebecause I felt that it was
(26:15):
giving a nod to the people whomaybe can't be there anymore.
And although it's kind of like abittersweet thing, I loved
writing that and even reading itback, like it has made me smile,
and I'm pleased that I was ableto write that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:29):
He definitely comes to kind of like an inner piece
about it as much as you can withsomething like that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
And what would okay, so it's getting closer to
Christmas time.
What would Jonah and Dexter geteach other for Christmas and how
would they spend their day?
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
So, this is such a good question because I feel
like Dexter would buy Jonah oneof the jumpers that he likes.
I just know that that's whathe'd do because it would annoy
him.
Also, it's actually a reallynice gift, you know, really nice
designer jumper.
Lovely, thank you.
But with Jonah, I just don'tknow what he'd get Dexter,
(27:06):
because Dexter is the kind ofguy that would be like, Well, if
I wanted it, I've already boughtit.
True.
Or, you know, he's he's goteverything that he really needs,
and I think he's quite contentin his little world that he's
got.
Then I also, this is kind oflike an inner canon that I have,
(27:26):
is that Dexter likes to read, helikes a cup of tea.
So I thought if if Jonah knewthis, which one day he would do,
he could maybe buy him a nicelittle tea selection, some
books, but then Dexter wouldprobably be like, Well, I've
read that.
So that's the kind of vibe I getfrom them.
But if they were gonna spendChristmas together, I think
(27:47):
maybe they'd go to Cornwall, bewith Jonah's family, because I
always imagine like that being areally nice, cozy Christmas in
his mum's house.
If they were in London, justkind of snuggled up together in
one of their homes, eating lotsof food, listening to Christmas
songs with lots of tinsel.
I think it would be a cuteChristmas for them.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
I love that.
Yeah, maybe Jonah could evenlike take Dexter to the
bookstore one day and be like,okay, pick out what you want.
Because, like you said, hewouldn't be able to figure it
out because Dexter would haveread everything.
Unless they followed each otheron Goodreads.
That's that's what I did forlike all my friends' book
Christmas Kips was saw what theyalready read and what they said
they wanted to.
SPEAKER_00 (28:24):
See, I don't trust that because my one of my best
friends has got Goodreads, andshe's got so much stuff on her
list.
I was like, Okay, I'll get herthis and this.
And then she'd be like, Oh no, Ihave read that.
I've read that, and I'm like, Ohno, I can't trust the Goodreads
list.
Yeah, but you're right.
I think if he he just said toDexter choose and then I'll pay
for it, it's probably the bestthing that he could do.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
But that would be really fun for them to go um
back to Cornwall so then Dextercan experience that like
traditional Christmas that hemay not have normally had
growing up.
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
Yeah, and I I definitely think that Jonah's
mum and aunts would put on areally good Christmas.
You know, they'd have good foodum and just have a good time.
So they deserve that.
unknown (29:07):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
Is there anything else that you would like readers
to know about the dramatic lifeof Jonah Penrose?
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
But I just hope that you know, when I was growing up,
there wasn't I found it reallyhard to find a book that had
like diverse representation,like queer people in it.
And I just hope that I mean it'sgreat, there's so many books
now.
I mean, we can always do more,but that someone can see that
and see themselves in acharacter in the world and know
(29:36):
that they're not alone in thatway.
I hope theatre lovers find itbecause I have dropped quite a
lot of Easter eggs in there.
I know not all of them have beenfound yet from people I've
spoken to.
So it'd be great to see ifpeople can find those as well.
I I wrote it for people who thearts and love being creative, so
(29:56):
I hope that it does find thosereaders.
SPEAKER_01 (29:59):
Well, thank you for taking the time to talk to me.
That's it for today.
Thanks for listening to Where ILeft Off A Bookish Podcast.
You can visit Robin's sitethrough the link in the show
notes and purchase her novelanywhere books are sold.
The Dramatic Life of JonahPenrose releases November 11th,
2025.
So it is already available andready for you to read.
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls, and you'relistening to Where I Left Off, a
Bookish Podcast.
And today I'm joined by authorRobin Green, and we are talking
about her debut, The DramaticLife of Jonah Pinrose.
Thank you so much for joining metoday, Robin.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to talk to you.
Yay, me too.
So the first question that Ialways ask every author, because
(00:29):
authors just give really goodbook recommendations, is what
are you currently reading rightnow?
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
I I literally this morning started the audiobook of
We Bury Our Bones in theMidnight Soil.
So I'm I'm only like about fiveminutes in.
I don't know what that equatesto in pages, but so far so good.
But previously what did I Ilistened to a lot of audiobooks
because I just find it so mucheasier for me than sitting down
(00:57):
and reading.
Um and I just read, is it theyeah, the Road Trip by Beth
O'Leary?
And I'm probably a bit late withher books.
Um I just started reading likeeverything she's done this year,
but I love them.
She she makes the bestcharacters, she's great.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Do you listen to books on like one time speed or
do you kind of pump up the pacea little bit?
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
So if I get out a book that says it's about 24
hours long, I will have it onabout 1.75 just because I like
to listen to at least three orfour a month, and it's not gonna
happen if it's that long.
Um, but if they're on theshorter side, I will have it
(01:39):
normal speed.
But I think I've got so used tothem talking so quickly now when
it's normal speed, it soundsvery, very slow.
Yep.
It sounds like their mouth islike full of rocks or something
a little bit, yeah.
Yeah, it's like why are youbeing so slow?
I don't need you that slow.
But yeah.
Where do you tend to get youraudiobooks from?
I get mine off Libby and like mylocal library app.
(02:03):
I didn't know you could getaudiobooks from the library, and
my friend told me, and itliterally changed my life, it
was the best thing ever.
I'd been I still get them onAudible for the ones that aren't
on the library app, but beingable to access so many titles on
there was like Christmas whenshe told me that.
It was amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
And I don't know if they have it where you are, but
if your library happens to havehoopla, you might want to check
into that as well.
It's kind of like a Libby, butyou get like 15 credits a month,
and all of the audiobooks thatare on there um are available
for instant download, so youdon't have to wait like you do
with Libby.
You can just go at like anypace.
(02:43):
Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing.
And and they have so many.
Like my library, as soon asBrimstone by Callie Hart came
out, it was there that day.
Like all of the books arehitting like that day, and you
can just listen to it right awayon pub day.
And it is it is wild, but it isreally, really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
That is literally the dream.
I hate it when I click on it,put it on hold.
It's like it you've got 16 weeksto wait.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Like, oh my gosh, no.
And then it always comes aboutat like the worst possible time,
and you're like, no, I don'thave time for this right now,
but I wanted it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
You'll get four books come through all at once,
and then you have to prioritize.
And I can't do that because Iwant to listen to them all.
And it yeah, yeah.
That sounds amazing.
I'm going to look into that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Yeah, a lot of libraries have been adding on
hoopla and libby.
Like mine actually has both, soI can check and see uh which one
it's on, and then use both.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Oh, so you've just made the Libby experience even
better.
Incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Audiobooks are just better when they're through the
library, if you can.
They are, they are, and ifthey're there.
If you can find them and if theyhave them, yeah.
Absolutely, I agree.
Oh, one more random aside beforeI get on to the next question.
But um, for some reason, so likeTJ Maxx, Marshalls, those kind
of overstock stores have beenhaving books, and I found a
(04:01):
signed copy the other day ofBury Our Bones in the Midnight
Soil.
And I I know, I looked and itsaid on the little sticker, like
signed, and I thought, nah,that's probably just a misprint.
There's no way that it wouldjust be like sitting in a store
like this, and I opened it andit was her signature.
No way!
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Oh my god.
So I on a tangent now, I went toa charity shop and they had a
like five books for a pound,which is insane anyway.
And they had a fairy lootedition of a book.
And I oh my gosh, I can'tremember what it is now.
Juna Putton Thorn.
That is so cool.
And it had the sprayed edges,and I opened it and it was
(04:38):
signed.
And I wish 20p for this book.
Obviously, I got five for apound because who wouldn't?
But this the things you find isincredible.
And I love a signed book, it'slike a little gem.
SPEAKER_01 (04:50):
Me too.
I also have a signed book.
See, that's just more um morereason to go searching in all
those kind of random places forbooks because you just never
know what you'll find.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
You never know.
And you I love a charity shopanyway, and I found like some
really gorgeous, like oldeditions, like of Charles
Dickens books, you know, likethe books that look old, they're
like leather-boundish lookingwith gold print.
It's like, oh my gosh, they'reso beautiful just as objects.
So yeah, I'm always up for alittle rummage through shops.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
I was gonna say, I totally agree.
I was in a vintage bookstore theother day, and they had like the
old copies of like Nancy Drewthat I'd never seen before and
like Agatha Christie's.
I was like, oh my gosh, they'reso cool to look at.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
No, they're lovely.
I love them older, like justthey have a certain look about
them and they're so nostalgic.
They're just nice to have.
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
As you can tell, we really like to decorate our
bookshelves with all the goods.
Um, so what can you tell usabout your current work in
progress?
So is the dramatic life of JonahPenrose is that a standalone or
is it the first book in aseries?
Because I could see it goingeither way by the way that it
ended.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
Um, it is a standalone.
Okay.
What's been nice is the readersthat I have spoken to have been
like, it would be really nice tohave something with Bastian and
seeing like what happens withhim in New York, maybe something
from Dexter's point of view,which I mean I'd love to write
it, but who knows?
At the moment, Jonah is astandalone.
unknown (06:20):
Perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
And what are you currently working on uh right
now?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
I don't know how much I'm allowed to say.
Okay, you can keep it veryvague.
Yeah, it's another rom-com, it'sanother queer rom com.
With Jonah, I feel like Londonand the setting of London is
very much a character withinitself.
Uh, with this new one, thecharacter's been pulled from
London.
Uh so he's been pulled out ofthat setting and put somewhere
(06:47):
completely different.
So so far it's been reallydifferent to write.
I come from kind of a rural-ishplace anyway.
So, although London, I loveLondon and everything that it
brings, it's nice to writesomething which was a bit more
closer to home.
So that's probably about as muchas I can say at the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Whenever you come up with new ideas for uh books, do
you have like a list that you'repulling from, or does it just
kind of hit you at random timesand then you just run with that
when you know you have like anidea that you want to go forward
with?
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
I think it really depends.
My agent, bless her heart, hashad so many emails from me
going, I've got this idea, I'vegot this idea, and she's great
because she will listen toeverything I spew at her, and it
could be the most random things,and she she's good in that
(07:41):
she'll be like, No, this no, no,this is ridiculous, just leave
it alone, or she'll be reallyencouraging and say, Yeah, go
for it.
So I do have a kind of catalogueof things that I want to write,
but it's about prioritising, Ithink, which ones will come
next, which would follow onnicely from Jonah, because you
(08:02):
know, that that was my debut,and you you do want to.
I personally didn't want to steptoo far out of that kind of
world I'd created there.
So when looking at writingsomething else, it was very much
what would go hand in hand.
And although I had loads andloads of ideas written down, I
had a meeting with my agent andsaid, I've got this idea, I
(08:25):
haven't got any characters inmind yet, it's very loose, and
she was just like, Go for it,and it's somehow now shaped into
something which hopefullyactually has a plot.
So we'll see how it goes.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
Well, yay, I'm excited to read it.
What does your typical writingday look like?
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
So my writing day has changed so much.
The week that Jonah came out, Ifinished my job and I started a
new job.
So it's a bit of a wild week forme, and with my old job, I had a
lot more time to just sit andwrite.
I'd have dedicated days where Iwas at my desk writing, whereas
(09:06):
now I am at work all the time.
So that's kind of changed, butI'm more of an evening writer
anyway, which is rather useful.
I hear some authors they get uptwo hours before anybody else,
so they can write, and I admirethem because I could I'd
probably cry if I had to get upat 5 a.m.
So yeah, I'm more of an eveningwriter.
(09:28):
So when I do sit down, I wouldalways have a cup of tea.
A cup of tea keeps me going.
I technically should be where Iam right now in my office, but I
do like to have my laptop on thesofa with my blankets and dogs.
So that's kind of my routine,although it's it's changing at
the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
I was gonna say that's completely different to
try to get used to that andswitch it around.
And I'm sure it's hard with thecreative process to have that
big of a change and figure outhow it looks now.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Yeah, and it was it was weird because when I I got
my new job and I was so excitedabout it, there was this voice
in the back of my head thinking,you're gonna have less time to
write now, and you've you youknow, you've actually got a book
out now.
It's not like you're doing itjust because you enjoy doing it,
you know, that you've got a bookand hopefully have another book,
(10:15):
and then suddenly I'm taking onthis whole massive new role.
But so far, so good.
I mean, I'm only two weeks in,so we'll see.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
Okay.
Well, getting a little bit moreinto the dramatic life of Jonah
Pinrose.
So, as you were developing theidea for the story, was it Jonah
and Dexter that came to youfirst, or did kind of the
overall premise come to youfirst?
SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
It was definitely the premise with this one.
I remember having a chat with myagent about what I wanted to
write.
She suggested romance to mebecause it wasn't actually a
genre I ever thought aboutwriting in.
I enjoy reading it, uh, but itwasn't, I just was like, well, I
don't think I could writeromance.
It just felt like it was out ofmy wheelhouse.
(11:00):
And she said, Look, write aboutsomething you love, and for me
that was the theatre.
So it felt really easy suddenlycoming up with this kind of
theatre that they could work in.
And I remember being online andI saw an article about a big
(11:20):
Broadway actor who had gotengaged to someone he'd worked
with previously, and I was like,oh, that's amazing! Like,
imagine all the relationshipsthat could flourish in that
world, and so that idea camefirst, and then the characters
came second.
Whereas if I'm honest, it'susually the other way around for
me.
I have a little character in mymind who's like, put me in
(11:42):
something, but no, it wasdefinitely the world this time.
SPEAKER_01 (11:45):
That's really interesting.
And what is your like what isyour favourite show?
Oh my goodness.
I know it's hard to pinpointlike one immediately off the top
of your head.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Yeah, there's and you know what, there's been so
many amazing ones that I've seenin the last couple of years as
well that I feel like the thingsthat are being put on in here in
the UK, I know that Broadwayhave got some incredible things
as well, but every time I go tosee something, I'm in love with
that show when I'm sitting therewatching it.
But cabaret is my favourite.
(12:18):
However, I really love HadesTown, and every time I go to see
Hades Town, I think to myself,this is my favourite, but then
I'll go see Cabaret again.
And I saw Cabaret again inSeptember, and when we left, I
said to my friend, like, I justdon't think there's anything
quite as good as this,especially on the West End.
(12:41):
It's just the current productionof it is so good.
So I've I go between the two,but I love next to normal.
See, now you've got me startedon shows, like there's so many
amazing ones, amazing ones, andTwo Strangers, Carrie Cake
Across New York.
It's closed here now, but it'sjust open on Broadway.
If anyone listening is thinkingabout going to watch that, go
(13:04):
and watch it because it isamazing, honestly, incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Yeah, whenever I see a show, I tend to try to like
specifically not read up on whatit's truly about or watch any of
the YouTube videos of the song.
So that way, whenever I go in,it's like my like I'm trying to
figure it out as I'm watching.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Oh see, I'm I'm the opposite.
I so I've just started listeningto the chess uh recording, and I
don't have a clue what that showis about, but I'm like, these
songs are really good.
I think you know it's actuallyabout chess, it's actually about
chess.
So if it does come here, I'llwatch it.
At least I'll know the songs,but who knows what it's I mean,
(13:43):
I'm assuming it is about chess.
It's the clue in the title, butwho knows?
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
It's fun either way.
So Jonah and Dexter, um, likeyou said, as you're trying to
come up with this idea, havingtwo male actors working side by
side, sometimes they're kind ofup for the same roles.
And especially in this book,they uh they're up for some of
the same roles.
So, in your opinion, what makesJonah and Dexter such great
(14:12):
rivals throughout the book?
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
I think that because they're both so evenly matched,
I don't feel like one actuallyhas a step up on the other when
it comes to the professionalworld, because that's where
their rivalry has stemmed from.
Um, you know, being on the WestEnd, being in shows.
I wouldn't say that Jonah ismore talented than Dexter, or
(14:36):
vice versa.
And I think that that's whythey're quite, you know, good at
arguing with each other, becauseyou can't have Dexter, although
he does, doesn't he, say like,you've done this wrong, you've
done that wrong.
Because actually on paper,Jonah's the one who's won an
award, you know, Dexter hasn't.
(14:56):
But and I think that's such agood dynamic as well, because
when it comes to the theatreworld, everybody up on stage is
there because they're talented,because they've worked to get
there.
And I mean, I'm I'm not an onstage actor, I've always been
more behind the scenes withthings, but I can't imagine how
(15:18):
competitive it must be and howyou know repetitive it is going
for auditions, not getting them,and then seeing maybe the same
person getting those roles youwant to get, it must be soul
destroying, and especially whenit's obviously a career people
are passionate about, you'renever gonna go into a role like
that unless you really love itand you want to be there every
(15:41):
night performing.
So yeah, I think that's why theythey are good rivals because if
they were gonna have a physicalfight, if you're looking at it,
if it was a fantasy, one of themdoesn't have more magic than the
other, and they're both thesame.
So I think that's why it workswell for them.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
And even though um Jonah does win an award, I feel
like Dexter has a lot of kind oflike fame behind him a little
bit too, which matches them evenmore, kind of just in different
spheres in addition to theirtalent.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Yeah, it's like little extra things that they're
like, oh well, I've got this,and I well, I've got more
followers than you.
So, but again, it's like when itcomes down to it, between those
two, it's the casting director'sdecision.
Doesn't matter if you've got100,000 followers or if you have
an Olivia Award.
I'm sure an Olivia Awardactually probably helps.
(16:32):
Um, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
And I'm sure it's so much just like you said, like
what that director wants thatday or what they're envisioning
for that character.
So if you don't fit that, it'ssometimes you can't help it.
It's just, but that would be sohard to constantly have to go
through that process day in andday out.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
Definitely, and that you see it when they do casting
announcements for shows, likeyou'll read the comments and
people be like, Well, why ifthey cast so and so or so and so
would be better?
And it's like, well, you don'tknow what this production's
gonna be like, what they'relooking for, what somebody did
in that audition room.
Um, it's very easy when you'renot there to have an opinion on
(17:13):
you know who would be right forwhat, but I think that's also
part of the industry, and actorshaving to go out there and
almost prove themselves, whichis sad because you know they're
there for a reason, but it isjust the the nature of you know
that that kind of job, and notyou know, they'll have a
(17:35):
contract for however many monthsand then have to find something
else.
I must I I mean I I'm in awe ofthem, honestly.
I couldn't I couldn't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
So can you tell me a little bit more about your
background in the theatre?
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
So when I was younger, I I wanted to be on
stage, and that's one showing meheadlining shows.
And I was when I was little, Iwas in my local like dramatic
society.
I got to be in a Vita, which wasamazing.
I remember getting time offschool to actually do that, and
I felt very important.
Like, I don't get to go toschool this week because I'm in
(18:09):
a show, and yeah, it was great,but as I got older, I realised I
lacked the talent to actuallydancing, act.
Wasn't actually really my thing,but I loved the theatre world,
so I knew I wanted to be in itsomewhere.
So in more recent years, Iworked before actually doing
(18:32):
more theatre-y things on photoshoots.
I'd do wig styling, hairstylingup until kind of COVID, really,
which obviously put a stop toeverything like that, and then
afterwards I went more intocostume design and curation,
specifically for the theatre,which was amazing.
(18:52):
But it felt so poignant whenJonah came out that my book
about theatre was the week Ileft a theatre job.
But yeah, so I feel like I had agood behind the scenes insight
to how the world works from acostume perspective, anyway,
which is why I wanted Cherie inthere because although I don't
do makeup, I know that hustleand bustle of like, you need to
(19:13):
be on stage, why are you notready?
Why have you not got all yourcostume on?
And I felt like it put me in agood place to be able to write
this book.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
I agree.
And I thought that was fun withher in there and so many scenes
taking place, like in thedressing room and behind the
scenes and talking about thecostuming of every um every
production.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
Yeah, it was it was nice to put that in because with
some books I've I've worked on,I've had to do so much research
because I just don't know enoughabout something.
And I like to be able to thinkthat when somebody reads my
book, actually that is the wayit works.
It's not gonna be a hundredpercent with everything, but
when it came to costuming andthings like that, I wanted it to
(19:51):
be accurate because that isactually something I know about.
So that was quite important tome.
I can tell it it it's very itseems very realistic so.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
Thank you for writing it.
unknown (20:01):
No, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:03):
So did one of the characters come to you more
clearly than the other when youstarted writing?
Like was Jonah a little biteasier than Dexter, or Dexter a
little bit easier than Jonah?
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Jonah was definitely easier.
I think because it's from I meanit's in third person, but it's
close to Jonah.
So right off the bat, he wasjust there.
And Dexter, I think because he'snot in it from the get-go, was a
little bit easier to kind ofcreate him more in the
(20:33):
background.
I had Bastion there and Cheriewith Jonah very early on.
Um, but Dexter had an idea ofhim, but in a way I think that
worked because I wrote the bookchronologically.
I know some people are able towrite things here, and I don't
know how they do it.
It's I wouldn't even know whereto begin.
But so this idea that Jonah hadof Dexter was kind of the same
(20:56):
idea I had of Dexter before Ireally knew him, before I'd
wrote him.
And I think that works when itcomes to rivalry because the way
Jonah was anticipating thismeeting of Dexter was weirdly
how I was feeling about writinghim because I didn't know him.
I just knew of he's got to bethis, he's got to be this
talented guy, he's got to bethis threat.
(21:18):
I actually think he was well,and Mari was the last character
I kind of made, but it wasDexter, who was an enigma, I
think, for the longest time.
SPEAKER_01 (21:30):
And that makes sense with the whole kind of yoga
scene and you know how Jonah'strying to figure out how
Dexter's gonna play it, and Iwon't go into any more because I
don't want to spoil, but thatthat whole kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
Yeah, and I think that that's quite fun as a
writer.
Before writing Jonah, I wassomeone who didn't plan, and I
think it drove my agent crazybecause she'd say, So what's the
you know overall synopsis ofwhat you're writing?
I don't know.
We'll see.
So but actually with Jonah, Idid do a plot plan, but still
(22:07):
not having the ins and outs ofeach character makes it
interesting for me as a writerbecause oh Dexter's just gone
and done this.
Why did he do that?
I don't know, but then I can doa reaction to that while
writing, which is really fun.
That's a really good point.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
I never thought about it that way.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
You never know with these characters, they go rogue
sometimes.
I could see that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
And how did you balance uh really their
competitiveness with kind of thevulnerability as they learn to
open up to each other throughoutthe book when the romance is
developing?
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
I felt it was really important to, with a romance,
not make the romance their soledriving factor.
I think when I've read romancebooks, it's always more
interesting when the romanceisn't defining them.
So with both characters, Iwanted there to be something
behind the way they're acting.
(23:02):
So with Jonah, his vulnerabilitycomes from actually isn't very
confident at all when it comesto himself.
He can get up on a stage andperform when he's playing a
character, but when he'shimself, he lacks that
confidence.
And then he also has, again,without going into too many
spoilers, a lot going on withhis family.
And I felt that it was soimportant to create a life for
(23:27):
him outside of something he wasdeveloping with Dexter.
And although Dexter's isn'texplored as much, he's also got
his own things going on, his ownfamily things, his own
insecurities.
I like to think it makes moreinteresting characters and helps
balance them out.
It gives them a more rounded,realistic kind of reason for the
(23:48):
way they are because nobody'sperfect, no matter how much they
want to be.
And I think it's reallyimportant to see characters with
flaws because it's that's theway life is, and I think that's
what I really want to do withlike balancing out that rivalry
with things that people do haveto deal with in life, and
(24:09):
there's no guidebook for how youdeal with that.
So getting to explore that wasreally quite poignant for me as
a writer to be able to look atthose aspects and put them into
words.
SPEAKER_01 (24:21):
And I feel like they were able to kind of call on
each other and say, like, hey, Ineed to know this, and like,
hey, I need you to do this.
And so at least they kind ofpulled each other into that
space, even though at times itkind of seemed like they were
dragging their heels a littlebit because they didn't want to
open up because it was hard, orlike whatever Dexter wouldn't
say wherever he went um on theweekends and stuff like that.
(24:43):
And so it was kind of nice thatthey kind of taught each other
and got to communicate with eachother to figure out um how to
get there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Yeah, and I think when people have asked me like
what your characters like, I'mlike, they're both idiots who
don't know how my how tocommunicate with each other
because actually, if they didknow how to do that, one, there
wouldn't be a book, but two,it's about learning and
developing as people, you know.
As humans, we carry pastexperiences with us, whether we
(25:14):
mean to or not, and can put themonto other people.
And Dexter and Jonahunfortunately fall foul to that,
but I think that they do makeeach other better in the end.
SPEAKER_01 (25:25):
What is one moment in the book that always makes
you smile, maybe when you wroteit or as you're reading it back?
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
I really love some of the scenes with Jonah's dad,
which again I don't want to talkabout in case somebody's
listening who hasn't read it,but there's some very sad stuff
with Jonah's dad, but thenthere's some memories there,
which I just think as you getolder, because I'm in my 30s
now, and you can, you know, byno means am old, I mean I hope
(25:52):
not, but you can look at yourchildhood and remember like
these certain magical things,and I remember those things from
my childhood.
So being able to give Jonahthose memories as well was
really nice, and even at the endof the book, when he's kind of
looking out at the theatre andhe sees someone in the audience,
that was really nice to mebecause I felt that it was
(26:15):
giving a nod to the people whomaybe can't be there anymore.
And although it's kind of like abittersweet thing, I loved
writing that and even reading itback, like it has made me smile,
and I'm pleased that I was ableto write that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:29):
He definitely comes to kind of like an inner piece
about it as much as you can withsomething like that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
And what would okay, so it's getting closer to
Christmas time.
What would Jonah and Dexter geteach other for Christmas and how
would they spend their day?
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
So, this is such a good question because I feel
like Dexter would buy Jonah oneof the jumpers that he likes.
I just know that that's whathe'd do because it would annoy
him.
Also, it's actually a reallynice gift, you know, really nice
designer jumper.
Lovely, thank you.
But with Jonah, I just don'tknow what he'd get Dexter,
(27:06):
because Dexter is the kind ofguy that would be like, Well, if
I wanted it, I've already boughtit.
True.
Or, you know, he's he's goteverything that he really needs,
and I think he's quite contentin his little world that he's
got.
Then I also, this is kind oflike an inner canon that I have,
(27:26):
is that Dexter likes to read, helikes a cup of tea.
So I thought if if Jonah knewthis, which one day he would do,
he could maybe buy him a nicelittle tea selection, some
books, but then Dexter wouldprobably be like, Well, I've
read that.
So that's the kind of vibe I getfrom them.
But if they were gonna spendChristmas together, I think
(27:47):
maybe they'd go to Cornwall, bewith Jonah's family, because I
always imagine like that being areally nice, cozy Christmas in
his mum's house.
If they were in London, justkind of snuggled up together in
one of their homes, eating lotsof food, listening to Christmas
songs with lots of tinsel.
I think it would be a cuteChristmas for them.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
I love that.
Yeah, maybe Jonah could evenlike take Dexter to the
bookstore one day and be like,okay, pick out what you want.
Because, like you said, hewouldn't be able to figure it
out because Dexter would haveread everything.
Unless they followed each otheron Goodreads.
That's that's what I did forlike all my friends' book
Christmas Kips was saw what theyalready read and what they said
they wanted to.
SPEAKER_00 (28:24):
See, I don't trust that because my one of my best
friends has got Goodreads, andshe's got so much stuff on her
list.
I was like, Okay, I'll get herthis and this.
And then she'd be like, Oh no, Ihave read that.
I've read that, and I'm like, Ohno, I can't trust the Goodreads
list.
Yeah, but you're right.
I think if he he just said toDexter choose and then I'll pay
for it, it's probably the bestthing that he could do.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
But that would be really fun for them to go um
back to Cornwall so then Dextercan experience that like
traditional Christmas that hemay not have normally had
growing up.
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
Yeah, and I I definitely think that Jonah's
mum and aunts would put on areally good Christmas.
You know, they'd have good foodum and just have a good time.
So they deserve that.
unknown (29:07):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
Is there anything else that you would like readers
to know about the dramatic lifeof Jonah Penrose?
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
But I just hope that you know, when I was growing up,
there wasn't I found it reallyhard to find a book that had
like diverse representation,like queer people in it.
And I just hope that I mean it'sgreat, there's so many books
now.
I mean, we can always do more,but that someone can see that
and see themselves in acharacter in the world and know
(29:36):
that they're not alone in thatway.
I hope theatre lovers find itbecause I have dropped quite a
lot of Easter eggs in there.
I know not all of them have beenfound yet from people I've
spoken to.
So it'd be great to see ifpeople can find those as well.
I I wrote it for people who thearts and love being creative, so
(29:56):
I hope that it does find thosereaders.
SPEAKER_01 (29:59):
Well, thank you for taking the time to talk to me.
That's it for today.
Thanks for listening to Where ILeft Off A Bookish Podcast.
You can visit Robin's sitethrough the link in the show
notes and purchase her novelanywhere books are sold.
The Dramatic Life of JonahPenrose releases November 11th,
2025.
So it is already available andready for you to read.
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