October 3, 2024 • 51 mins
USA Today best-selling author Jessica Joyce joins me to talk about her latest release, The Ex-Vows, a contemporary romance. We cover the book, her publishing journey, writing process, and much more!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristen Bahls (00:09):
Welcome back.
I'm kristen Balls and you'relistening to where I left off, a
bookish podcast, and today I'mjoined by the usa today
best-selling author of you witha view, a risk worth taking, and
her latest contemporary romancenovel, the E, jessica Joyce.
Hi, thank you so much for beinghere.
(00:29):
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
So the first and most importantquestion that I always ask
anyone that is on is what areyou currently reading?
Jessica Joyce (00:39):
Oh my gosh, I'm reading so much.
I um, and the vast majority ofthem are 2025 books.
So keep that in mind, I need tolike write a list of books that
I've read in the past that arecoming out now or just came out
this year, cause I'm like I'm ona totally different, I'm like
(01:00):
on a totally different timeline.
I'm like sitting in 2025, 2026.
I have a highlights tab on myInstagram profile where I talk
about books that I'mrecommending.
This one just came out, august6th, and it's called the Great
Dating Fake Off.
I didn't just read it.
I read it ages and ages agobecause Libby Hart, who wrote
(01:23):
the book she is one of mycritique partners but it did
just come out.
It's amazing.
It's fake dating with a twist,because the female main
character and the male maincharacter are fake dating other
people and they like, yeah, soit's like it's, it's fake dating
with a twist.
It's so brilliant.
So you get like sort of thatlike forbidden love element too,
(01:43):
because it's like theyobviously can't show interest in
each other because they're fakedating these other people.
Kristen Bahls (01:48):
Oh, wow.
Jessica Joyce (01:49):
And it's set at a wedding, like during the
wedding week of friends, andit's amazing, it's so funny.
I think Livvy Hart is like oneof the true sort of rom-com
writers she writes with likereally impeccable comedic timing
, so I adore that book.
And then I also didn't justread this one, but no One Does
(02:11):
it Like you by Katie Shepard,which is her latest that just
came out I want to say, lastweek.
It's Second Chance.
If you read her previous book,Sweeten the Deal, Sweeten the
Deal, You'll find characters inthis book that were in that book
.
They're connected standalones.
I'll say so, anyway, love thatbook.
(02:32):
I love Katie Shepard's writingSunshine and Spice by Aurora
Pellet I think that's how yousay her last name.
I've actually like she's afriend of mine and I've never
heard her last name spoken outloud, so I should get on top of
that.
But her debut just came out.
It is again Fake Dating, whichI love and let's see.
(02:55):
And then some 2025 books thatI've read recently.
First Time, Caller by BKMorrison oh I love that, yeah,
which is amazing.
Insp Holler by BK Morrison oh Ilove that, yeah, which is
amazing.
Inspired by Sleepless inSeattle, I read Tara DeWitt's
2025 release, Left of Forever,which is again sort of like a
(03:16):
connected standalone to Savor it, and it's second chance.
It's amazing.
She does like she's justbrilliant.
I recently listened to BetweenFriends and Lovers on Audible,
which was amazing.
I have Regina Black's 2025release on my Kindle.
I just started it.
(03:36):
It's called August Lane and itis about it's again a a second
chance.
I love second chance, so I'mlike I will eat them up every
time and it is about a countrysinger who goes back to um
connect with his like old highschool love who helped him write
(04:00):
like his sort of like one smashhit and he is a country singer.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I've been reading like a tonand they're all over the place
that that sounds like a ton.
Yeah, but they're, they're allamazing.
I feel like I'm I'm constantlylike the embarrassment of riches
so a second chance.
Kristen Bahls (04:20):
Your favorite trope or fake dating.
Jessica Joyce (04:23):
I think Second Chance is probably like one of
the top ones for me.
I do love fake dating, ofcourse, but I think Second
Chance and like Enemies slashRivals to Lovers are sort of my
like, really really favoriteones to read.
Kristen Bahls (04:39):
Because they might have.
Friends to Lovers and Enemiesto Lovers are top.
And then Force.
Proximity and Fake Dating areright underneath and then forced
proximity and fake dating areright underneath.
Jessica Joyce (04:47):
I know, yeah, those are so good too.
It's hard to pick, those are sogood.
Kristen Bahls (04:50):
It is, it is really hard to pick.
Oh my gosh, wow, you arereading like a lot, a lot.
I know, yeah, I got a lot on myplate.
How do you keep up witheverything?
Jessica Joyce (05:06):
You?
No, not very well, I mean.
I um, obviously you know, whenyou're a published author like
you, have opportunities to blurbbooks and I feel like I'm
always sort of like being like,yes, send me this book, oh, yeah
, I'm going to read this, andyou know.
And then, like I always missthe deadline to blurb and I'm
like sending in my blurb, youknow, two weeks late or whatever
, so, and I'm also a pretty slowreader and so it just takes.
(05:28):
Yeah, it takes a lot of time toactually, you know, get it done
, but I have been reading orlistening to a lot of audio
books lately and that's helpedme, like sort of like, not for
the 2025 releases, but for like2024 books, books that have just
been released that I've had onmy list.
That, like that, helps me sortof get through them.
Kristen Bahls (05:50):
What speed do you listen to your audiobooks on?
Jessica Joyce (05:52):
I'm so I'm kind of new to audiobooks and so and
actually I like posted this onthreads last, like a month ago
or something someone was likesomeone got mad at me for being
like oh, like, I like it'samazing to me that people can
listen on like two, you know 2.0and plus you know an over speed
(06:13):
.
But I am like really impressedby people who can listen that
fast.
I am at currently 1.4.
That's pretty good and that'sabout all I can handle, but I
really would like to get up tolike 1.8 maybe, but I'm, I don't
know, I'm okay.
Kristen Bahls (06:32):
I'm okay with 1.4 for now for me it kind of
depends on the narrator.
Sometimes I can listen at like1.75 or you know two but, you
just lose some inflection there.
So you know, and if they're afast talker, then you don't, you
can't process it.
So yeah, yeah, I switch, Iswitch.
Jessica Joyce (06:49):
Yeah, it's hard, it's like you know, my brain at
some point my brain just doesn'toperate that quickly and it's
like wait a second, hold on.
I missed like that entireparagraph.
I don't even know where we'reat right now.
Kristen Bahls (07:01):
So or you like, stop what you're doing and just
kind of stand there and listen,because you just can't, totally.
So we got a little teeny tinypreview at the end of the
X-Files of your next book, theSoulmate Charade.
What can you tell us about that?
Jessica Joyce (07:21):
Well, I can tell you that the snippet that's in
that book is not correct anymore.
It's out of date.
So, um, I'm, you know I'mrewriting it, because I got I
probably got like 40,000 wordsin um to my draft and I was like
, oh wow, this is all wrong, so,which is like always such a fun
(07:43):
realization, and so so, yeah,so I'm, I'm kind of redoing it
and and I also sort of learnedabout myself that, like, when I
share too much, then my brain islike, oh no, I don't want to do
it that way anymore, and soit's so hard because obviously I
want to share everything.
Like I am, I'm such anoversharer, like I will tell
(08:06):
everybody anything that'shappening in my brain at any
given moment.
But I have learned that, like I, I can't give too much away
when I'm still, you know, in theprocess of writing a thing, and
so I can't say much about itbecause I feel like I'm still
(08:26):
sort of in the discovery process.
I will say that I did post inlike one of my carousel posts on
Instagram, I did post like alittle portion of the playlist
that I put together for it andlike a little snippet of the
Pinterest board, because thosethings for me like always sort
(08:47):
of come first, like I'm alwaysplaying around with you know,
sort of the the media part of ofdrafting a book before I
actually dive in.
So it might give you like alittle hint of what you know the
vibes are.
But I don't even like I don'tthink I even really have the
tropes nailed down yet.
So I can't be like I don'tthink I even really have the
tropes nailed down yet.
So I can't be like it's thisand this and this.
(09:08):
It was originally supposed to befake dating and now I'm like I
don't know, I don't know if it'sgoing to be that or not, so I
don't know.
It's very interesting to writeon contract and to write books
that, like you know, are goingto be perceived by people and
that, like, people are activelywaiting for.
Because, like I, you know,prior to this, even when I wrote
(09:31):
the Ex-Fouse it was before itwas before you With a View came
out, you know, and so I was sortof writing those those books a
little bit in a silo becausenobody was really like knocking
on my door for little bit in asilo because nobody was really
like knocking on my door for theex-house, because which is a
kind of fun place to be to nothave to have the pressure.
(09:53):
yeah, yeah, right, like thereare just less expectations and,
in fact, like the onlyexpectations are my own, right,
like what, what do I want thisbook to be?
And so I think that was aninteresting sort of discovery
with this third book, because,you know, it was sort of like
and now people were like, oh,shoot, like I really want this
(10:16):
book and I'm like, okay, but Idon't know, you know, I don't
even know what it's about.
So, yeah, it does.
It's like the expectationsdefinitely add a different kind
of pressure, like I thinkthere's always an inherent
pressure to writing a book,right, because it's like such a
huge undertaking.
But the awareness, the externalawareness, I'll say, is like an
added like, an added thing tothink about.
(10:40):
So that has been interesting totry and balance that with like
writing a book that I want towrite and writing a book that I
know people been interesting totry and and balance that with
like writing a book that I wantto write and writing a book that
I know people will want to read, and you know, all of that it's
, it can be, it can be a reallycomplex like mental game,
honestly, that's weird, and ifsomething changes, like the
(11:01):
tropes, and you decide to go adifferent direction, can you
just like tell your editor andrepitch it, and then they give
you carte blanche to kind of goyour own way again yeah, I mean
my, my agent definitely does.
And you know I I did go to herand I was like, hey, knock,
knock, um, this is wrong.
And she was like, okay, and youknow, we, we did a lot of
(11:24):
brainstorming and and ultimatelyI was just like, you know, I'm
just gonna see where it goes.
And she's very much she is,she's so cool with that.
And you know like, uh, evenwith the X-Files, I had
submitted a synopsis, like a10-page synopsis or something,
of the book before I starteddrafting it.
(11:46):
Like that's one of sort of themilestones of of a book contract
is that you turn in a synopsisand then that gets approved.
And it's like a check mark onthe um, the deliverables and the
synopsis that I provided withher and the book that I
ultimately ended up turning inEssence was there.
But like, so many of the detailsjust changed in drafting, and
(12:10):
that is just my process.
Like I am a very chaoticdrafter.
I discover so much in thedrafting and so I can tell you
that the book is gonna be onething at the beginning, but then
by the time I'm done, I'm like,oh, actually, like it went
totally in this other directiondirection and it just kind of
like is what it is.
It's very weird, like it's.
(12:30):
It's weird to like talk aboutmy, my brain and creative
process as its own, likeseparate being from me or like
having its own free will, but itkind of does, like it just the
characters just take you andthey go where they want to go.
Yeah, they do, they really doit's.
It's pretty wild actually tolike be in that experience and
(12:51):
obviously you know, you know asa writer, like it just yeah,
like they just are like nope,we're gonna go do this actually,
and you're like, yeah, okay,that actually does make a lot of
sense for you and your art.
Kristen Bahls (13:03):
So thank you, and after reading that little
snippet, um, I kind of got apossible like magical realism
vibe.
Is that something that's inthere or is it more just kind of
like the energy of the place?
And of course you know it couldchange yeah, you're not, it's,
(13:24):
it's.
Jessica Joyce (13:24):
Yeah, there's.
No, there's no magical realism.
I mean, there is still a psychicelement to it, like there is
this psychic, an actual psychic,a person, but the the story
itself, I think is really rootedin to.
To be honest with you, I'm avery woo-woo person.
(13:45):
Like I have tarot, like I'msitting here with tarot decks on
my on my desk.
So I believe in you know, likeI believe in signs, the universe
doing its thing, like obviouslywe all have free will, but like
paths are carved out for us ifwe want to take them, that kind
(14:06):
of thing, and so so I think Ikind of always well, I played
around with it a little bit inyou with the view, because there
was a chapter with um or ascene with a tarot reader and
you know I talked a lot about,like you know, her grandma
giving her signs from, yeah,yeah and stuff like that, and so
I think this sort of playsaround with that too, of like
(14:28):
the universe sort of doing itsthing, but ultimately like we do
have free will over our livesand we are capable of making
choices, basically.
Kristen Bahls (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, makes sense.
Yeah, I couldn't tell you know,it's one of those things where
you read a chapter, I'm like Hmm, I don't know, it could go
either way.
Yeah, it could go either way.
It could go either way, but itsounded really good, so whatever
you let it on it'll, it'll begood.
I appreciate that.
So, talking a little bit aboutum you with the view for a
(15:01):
second, so there was bo's povchapter um that you let out for
newsletter subscribers yeah whenI got it on the pre-order um
incentive, I mistakenly finishedit like right before I was
going somewhere, and I don'tknow why.
I thought I wasn't gonna cry.
I've cried every book, but Iwas like oh, it's fine I'll just
(15:23):
finish it up like I only have10 pages left.
I think yes, I only have liketwo pages left, and so I read it
and I just could not stopcrying.
I was like Jessica, why did youdo this?
So it is amazing, but it'savailable on your newsletter for
everyone to view yeah, yeah,widely released for anyone who
wants to read it.
Jessica Joyce (15:42):
And you know, I originally, I originally planned
it to be just like one scene,like a scene from the book from
his point of view and, of course, like everything you know, it
just sort of ran away from meand all of a sudden it was like
32 pages and 8,000 words andlike this whole, this whole
(16:03):
concept, concept, you know, offive vignettes, of when, you
know, he thought about lovingher so um, but it was really fun
.
It was fun to write and it wasjust so fun to like be back with
them.
You know, because I I wrote youwith a view back in 2021, so
it's been three years since I'vetouched those characters and,
yeah, it was really fun to tovisit them again, see them happy
(16:26):
and I'm actually rereading youWith a View right now, and it's
kind of fun, after having readthat POV, so soon going back and
reading it.
Kristen Bahls (16:37):
There are little things that I didn't notice the
first time that what did?
Noelle say she said somethingthe other day like, um, uh, no
one's ever loved me like that orsomething, whenever she was
talking about her grandma.
I'm like, oh, I didn't catchthat before and so now you know
you can kind of catch all that.
Jessica Joyce (16:51):
So it it's really fun to read back yeah, I love
those callbacks too, like Ireally wanted to include, like
some of those callbacks thatthat you know tied back to um,
to to you at the View, because Ifeel like readers are always so
savvy about like catching thatstuff, um, especially when they
(17:12):
have a sort of the additionalcontext of of Theo's point of
view.
So, yeah, I loved, I loved allmaking all of those little
connections back to the originalbook.
Kristen Bahls (17:21):
Focusing on the expo, yeah, so okay, you've said
on social media that you know alot of like mundane things
about all of your characters, um, so this is quite a question.
But if you would like to sharesomething about, of course,
georgia and Eli, um, I mean, ifyou can think of something for
(17:43):
Noelle and Theo and Claire andConnor, um I would.
We would all appreciate thattoo.
But anything you want to giveus about them, that's something
that maybe we haven't heardbefore in the books lately.
Jessica Joyce (17:57):
It's so funny because, like, I'm always like,
I'm always just like sort ofrandomly thinking about, about
stuff like that, like I wasthinking recently about which of
my characters would be mostlikely to like leave a function
without saying goodbye, and I'mlike, well, theo Spencer.
(18:17):
Of course he would be like Idon't even want to be here in
the first place, like goodbye,um.
So I think that he is like verymuch that type of person.
Um, I think that I don't know,like with Eli, I put so much, so
many like just like tinytidbits of information.
Like he loves puzzles and likehe loves you know, he loves like
(18:40):
getting inappropriate snacks atthe airport, like, you know,
eating chocolate at eighto'clock in the morning morning,
and so I think, like you know,if someone, if someone like asks
me a leading question, I can belike, oh yeah, like this person
would do this and this personwould do that, or if I see
something happening, you know,in in the natural environment,
(19:03):
I'd be like, oh, I think, Ithink Noelle would do that, like
I think Georgia would organizeher, her books, in rainbow order
.
You know what I mean.
Like that I'll see.
I'll like sort of like I'll seea post about that and be like,
yeah, georgia would so do that,or like you know, just stuff
like that.
But I've thought about likeputting, like literally having a
worksheet where I just likeenter in random information and
(19:26):
like put which character woulddo what under you know, like the
Irish exit thing, or like whowould let their gas tank get to
zero before going to fill it upagain and who would, like you
know, at half a tank, would beat the gas station filling it up
.
You know, like all of that sortof stuff.
Maybe I'll do that.
I think it's like such a funlittle thing to think about.
(19:49):
Like you know, just them doing,like these very human things
you know.
So I do always think about that, yeah, but I need to write it
down so that I can remember it.
Kristen Bahls (19:59):
And then every time you send out a newsletter,
just include like onecharacter's thing in there.
Hey, I know, like here's yourlatest random tidbit.
Yeah, I love that.
Oh, oh, yeah, I forgot to eventell you earlier.
Um, I have a book spreadsheetthat I use that helps me keep up
with like all the books, and Iput little notes, little random
(20:21):
things like that so there you go, you could have that and then
you could also have a bookspreadsheet for your book.
So then you'll, you'll have somany spreadsheets, you won't
have time to ever update them inany way but you'll have them
there and you can feel like yeah, I.
Jessica Joyce (20:41):
You know I love a good spreadsheet.
I'm not good at them, but I do.
I do appreciate them for whatthey are, for sure are for sure.
Kristen Bahls (20:57):
So georgia, theo eli and noelle they all went to
the same high school.
Jessica Joyce (20:59):
Wait and claire also went to that high school,
correct?
She didn't, or she did not?
No, she didn't.
Claire and claire and connoraren't directly linked to them,
um, until until connor goes toto work for Theo's company in
the novella.
So they're like a lateraddition to the universe.
(21:20):
But yes, noel and Theo and Eliand Georgia all went to high
school together, althoughactually Eli didn't, because he
comes to Glenlake sophomore yearand Noelle and Theo.
In my head Noelle and Theo wereseniors when yeah, when Georgia
(21:41):
.
So Georgia and Adam went tohigh school with them, but Eli
missed them.
So they would have graduated,yeah, in high school?
Kristen Bahls (21:47):
Yeah, that makes sense, I don't know why.
Graduated in high school?
Yeah, that makes sense.
I don't know why, claire, forsome reason I was thinking that
there was something where shesaid something about Noel
without saying Noel.
I am totally wrong, but I don'tknow why.
That's why I was thinking likeshe said something, I don't know
.
I felt like she said somethingabout a girl from high school
but, honestly, I could totallybe wrong.
That was Georgia.
That was Georgia.
(22:07):
Yeah, that was Georgia what Iwas thinking of, claire.
Yeah, I need to go back andreread.
Yeah, I mean, if you must, yeah, oh man, um, so do you do?
Do you intend to like continuein future books to include all
the easter eggs all the time andkind of relate the characters,
(22:28):
or is this next one going to bea little bit different?
Jessica Joyce (22:30):
No, I definitely like.
I just love, I love the conceptof like invisible strings, and
so I love the idea of therebeing sort of this continuation,
like obviously they're notthese books aren't are
standalones, they're not sequelsof each other in any way, shape
or form.
But I also love the idea that,like, the world is much smaller
(22:54):
than we think it is and that wecould, you know, have even just
these like really temporaryconnections with people, whether
it's like you went to highschool with each other and you
still, like follow them onsocial media or or whatever.
So I do want to still sort ofhave those, those little strings
(23:16):
from from story to story, and Ithink you know it will evolve.
Like I do love the idea of Theoand Noel sort of being like the
original source material of,like all of these little
connections, but I imagine, likeat some point, like it will,
you know, as more books become,get written and stuff like that,
(23:38):
like that that sort of web willexpand.
So, yeah, I do.
I do want to do like somethingin every book that people can be
like oh my god, like that's youknow whoever?
Kristen Bahls (23:51):
yeah, because I know people are always looking
for those especially and I likehow you never name the
characters, so it's like alittle extra treasure.
Yeah, you have to try toremember exactly who and who did
what.
So what does your um initialkind of like character
development process look like?
(24:11):
I know you said it's kind ofhard to talk about.
You know what goes through yourbrain, but when you're kind of
first deciding what a characterlike, should or shouldn't be, is
there?
are there certain things thatyou think of first, or it's just
kind of as you start buildingthem.
Jessica Joyce (24:26):
I mean, usually what I do is I think of, like,
what their emotional wound is.
And so you know, like forNoelle, obviously, it was on one
hand like her grandma dying andon the other her feeling like
she wasn't successful, that shepeaked in high school.
And then, you know, for Georgia, it was really like this sense
(24:48):
of feeling like she couldn'thold on to people and like
couldn't be messy and likehonest with her feelings or that
you know, more people wouldleave her.
So I usually start with somesort of emotional wound.
I always call it like a thesisa little bit.
You know, like what is thethesis of this book?
And and, and that usually helpsme sort of flesh out who these
(25:11):
characters are, who the maincharacter is for sure, like at
first, and then usually whathappens is I build everybody
else around her Like it's herworld and everyone.
You know, it's like she'sBarbie and everyone else is just
Ken, you know.
But I do obviously want tocreate depth in everybody who's
on page, especially the loveinterest, and so I do tend to
(25:35):
build everything else aroundlike what is that core wound?
You know, how would she behaveLike?
What would her personality belike if this was who she was
Like.
For Georgia, an easy example islike if she's afraid to be messy
and like, show people who sheis, you know, for fear of them
leaving her, then she wouldtotally be a people pleaser and
(25:57):
like, very sunshine and helpfuland like let me do this, I'll do
this for you, like, and neverasking for help herself.
And and so you know, some ofthat, just like think, comes
naturally once I've identifiedwhat the wound is, and then some
of it just sort of comes topass as I'm writing the book.
(26:17):
A lot of it, like I said, isdiscovery.
I learn things about characters, main characters, secondary
characters, whatever.
As I'm writing too, I'll belike oh my gosh, well, I didn't
know that that's the way youfelt, but sure I'll put it down.
Yeah, so that's typically how Iapproach it, and then
everything gets fleshed out as Igo.
Kristen Bahls (26:38):
Is there a character in the Ex-Files that
kind of surprised you the mostas you were writing it?
Jessica Joyce (26:44):
Yeah, cole did.
Who's Adam's cousin?
You know the stirrerextraordinaire.
Who's Adam's cousin?
You know, mr Extraordinaire.
And it's funny because I got anemail today from somebody who
had just read the X-Files andshe was like please write a Cole
book.
Kristen Bahls (27:00):
You know like I was just about to ask you, yeah.
Jessica Joyce (27:04):
Like I want a book about Cole.
So I have, I have heard that andhe like, when I sort of
outlined because because I neverreally I never outlined the way
I think most people outlinewhich is like here's what
happens in chapter one, chaptertwo, I'm like, well, here's what
could happen in the first threechapters, and then after that I
don't know, like don't ask me.
(27:24):
And so you know, when I was sortof outlining and doing a
synopsis of the X-Files, he likedidn't even exist in my mind.
But I did realize as I wasdrafting and as they were sort
of getting closer to Blue Yonder, I'm like there needs to be
somebody there who is gonna likekeep them on their toes.
(27:44):
And and so Cole, really, youknow, sprang from from that need
of they need to have somebodythere who is going to like be
suspicious and like force themto work together.
You know, it's not enough thatAdam and Grace are, you know, 60
(28:04):
, 70 miles away expecting themto help out.
So he kind of sprang from thatand then, like I don't know, he
just like took on a kind ofsprang from that and then, like
I don't know, he just like tookon a life of his own from there.
Kristen Bahls (28:13):
All of a sudden, him and Eli were like friends
and he knew all about you knowwhat, and he had a little
sweetheart side to him too doesyeah, and honestly, like those
are kind of my favoritecharacters where, like they
present one way and like on theinside are just like soft and
gooey.
Jessica Joyce (28:31):
So it would be cool to like to to play around
with him in a full-length book,because I think that he does
have like so many layers to him.
He could wreak a lot of havoc,I think, which would be fun oh
yeah, that would be a lot of fun.
Kristen Bahls (28:48):
It's on my list, I was gonna say, and he's kind
of perfect because you put himin there just enough to where we
know his personality, but youdidn't like pigeonhole him into
any one thing to where you couldreally kind of like take him
wherever you want, want him togo exactly.
Jessica Joyce (29:03):
Yeah, that that is by design.
Yeah, I don't want to be.
Kristen Bahls (29:08):
I don't want to be stuck to anything that would
be the worst, especially withyour drafting process being
stuck to.
Jessica Joyce (29:13):
That sounds like it would just kill your
creativity, oh my god totally.
Kristen Bahls (29:17):
Yeah, that would be terrible.
So if you were going to cast afilm adaptation of the X-Files,
who?
Jessica Joyce (29:25):
would you?
Kristen Bahls (29:25):
pick for Georgia and Levi.
Jessica Joyce (29:29):
This is such a good question.
I've gotten this a few timesrecently and I always say first
of all, I'm not good at, like,face casting my characters.
I like I always have a clearidea of who they are in my head,
but they don't look like aperson that actually exists.
(29:49):
But I think that, like withthat, actually exists, but I
think that, like with that inmind, I think that I would want
two virtual unknowns, like Iwould.
I can't think of anything likeanyone super famous that I would
be like oh, I would want them.
You know, like that, that is myGeorgia, that is my Eli.
I feel like having somebodylike people who don't have a fan
(30:15):
awareness to them could be yeah, like they're that type of
actor and they're yeah asked inthis kind of role right exactly
so I don't know.
I can't think of anybody off thetop of my head that I'm like
that, like that's Georgia,that's an Eli, but I, I'm also
willing to be surprised, likeNetflix.
Call me and we can like, if youwant to hire someone famous.
(30:38):
I will get on board.
Kristen Bahls (30:43):
I had to, but this, like you said, it's so
hard.
I don't, I don't know you're.
You might be like, nope, that's, that's not, but okay, okay
here here's what I have.
So they are a little bit on theolder side, but if you think
about it, you know there arelike 30 year olds playing high
(31:06):
school kids and the magic oflike makeup and all that kind of
stuff you know the the world'syour oysters.
So I'm thinking possibly for Eli, I don't know why.
I kind of saw Chase Crawford alittle bit oh yeah, I could see
that I thought that he mightkind of have that like really
(31:27):
attractive, but a little bit oflike that smirk, that that kind
of like trouble air.
And then for Georgia, I wasactually thinking like maybe
Rachel Bilson, oh yeah, so Idon't know, those were kind of
my yeah, I could see that.
Yeah, totally that I wasplaying around with.
Jessica Joyce (31:44):
Yeah, I always love hearing what other people
think, cause I'm like I see thevision.
I totally see the vision.
Kristen Bahls (31:51):
And you're so close to it that I'm sure it's
really hard, when you're thatclose to it, to ever look at any
actors or actresses and pickanyone.
Yeah, 100%.
Jessica Joyce (32:01):
Because I'm like, well, I know all of these
things about them and it's morenuanced than that, but it really
isn't.
I mean.
You know, when it comes down toit it's not it really isn't.
Kristen Bahls (32:12):
I mean, you know, when it comes down to it it's
not true.
And hopefully, if the actors,like, had the screenplay in
their hands, then they wouldadapt to totally so.
It is hard to pick, you know,based on who's done what exactly
out there.
Oh my gosh.
Um, so in in theacknowledgements of the ex-files
, you talk a little bit abouthow the book changed from the
original and, like you saidearlier, so you wrote the
(32:33):
ex-files, put it away yeah wroteyou with the view and then kind
of rewrote it and came backwith it.
Yeah, how, how did that work?
And how did you part with thecharacters that you had before?
Jessica Joyce (32:47):
it was hard, it was really hard at first and I
rewrote the first, you know, thefirst third of that book like
three different times because Iwas just like I don't know who
they are as this version ofpeople, you know.
And so the first version Iwrote was it was friends to
(33:09):
lovers, wrote was it was friendsto lovers.
It was still.
You know, adams was a piece ofthe pie for sure, but like Eli
and Georgia got together halfwaythrough the book and then the
rest of the book was themdealing with like long distance
um dating, and it just didn'tfollow sort of like the natural
beats of a romance book that Ithink you need in order to
(33:31):
maintain tension and likeintrigue and all sorts of stuff.
So in hindsight I see why itdidn't go anywhere.
I'm like, oh yeah, duh.
So I had that sort of in mindwhen I decided to reimagine it.
I was like, well, that like thestakes need to be higher, the
tension needs to be higher, andI think Second Chance has like
such a natural tension to it andit's very emotion-based, which
(33:56):
I love.
Like I love digging intocharacter emotions, I love like
getting in the mess of it, likeI just I love, all of that, and
so having them be exes versusfriends felt like an easy way
for me to take it to the nextlevel, and I do think that
friends to lovers can have a tonof tension the way I did it.
(34:19):
It didn't so, but I read plentyof friends to lovers that I've
been like on the edge of my seat.
So it was it's not the trope,it's me, but I felt like, you
know, second Chance really didhave that, that level up that I
wanted for the book and so butyeah, it was hard because, you
know, obviously I had writtenthis other version of them, the
(34:53):
friends to lovers version.
He was a lot more jokey and likesort of like devil may care,
and in the second chance versionobviously he's pretty internal,
he's quieter, he is a lot moreserious, he's dealing with
anxiety, you know, and and thatfelt like it's sort of a
necessary change because Iwanted like, even though Georgia
knows, like she knows him sowell, there had to be an element
(35:15):
of him, of her not knowing apiece of him this present day
and I think like a quieterpersonality fits that a little
bit better.
So I had to sort of reimaginethat too and it was very hard.
For a while, I think, probablyuntil I got like halfway through
the book, the draft, I wasalways sort of in my mind,
(35:36):
referencing that other versionand being like, oh, but in that
version they do this and like,am I really going to do this
instead?
And I, you know, once I gotsort of halfway through, then
I'm like, okay, well, this is atotally different story, so I'm
just like thinking about them ina different way.
But it was very difficult forsure to like get to that point.
It was very painful,unfortunately.
Kristen Bahls (36:01):
I can't imagine, and I mean like you said, it
really does work out better,because not only did they lose
each other, as like in arelationship stance, but they
lost that friendship that, yeah,they had for so long, and it's
you feel it a little bit greaterand why she's so totally
(36:22):
destroyed, because it's just atotal loss.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, that wouldbe so hard, but it worked out at
the end.
It worked out in the end, wasit?
Was it you that kind of madethe decision to change it, or
was it like feedback from otherpeople or what kind of like
(36:45):
tipped the pendulum a little bit?
Jessica Joyce (36:48):
Well, when I got the deal, when I got the book
deal with Berkeley, it was a twobook deal and they had asked,
you know, in the process oftalking to them before I signed
the contract, they were like youknow, do you have an idea for a
second book?
And I'm sort of like it's hardfor me to come up with multiple
(37:08):
ideas at once, like if I'm, ifI'm working on an idea, like
that is my entire life, that ismy world, and so I didn't really
cause I had just been, Iobviously had just come off you
With A View, and so I didn'treally have anything like
anything new in mind.
But I knew that I had Georgiaand Eli and I knew that I had to
write it differently.
(37:29):
And so, you know, the secondchance element and all of that
sort of came from me, cause Iwas like, well, I know that it
has to be stronger than this,and so that was the concept that
I, that I pitched to, that myagent pitched to to Berkeley.
But you know that the secondchance element of it definitely
came from me in terms of likethis is how I want to reimagine
(37:51):
it.
Kristen Bahls (37:52):
That makes sense.
I mean, and you changed my mind, second chance was not my
favorite.
And you, you changed my mind,second Chance was not my
favorite and you changed my mind.
Jessica Joyce (38:02):
I love it.
That's the ultimate compliment.
Kristen Bahls (38:06):
Every time I hear that I'm like, yes, okay,
perfect.
I actually had someone elsethat we were chatting and they
were like I mean I don't love it, but you know, I'll read it
because I'll read anything,especially if it's, you know, by
someone you like and it soundsgood.
And I had someone that was likeI will not read second chance,
I won't read it, and I was likejust read, it and they were like
okay, okay, fine, fine, I'lladd it so it was on their TBR
(38:29):
and obviously.
I am just like patiently waitingwhenever, like, they get there.
So how are we feeling?
I, yeah, I appreciate yourreading, I love it.
So how?
I mean we talked a little bitabout it, just the pressure in
general.
Jessica Joyce (38:45):
But how do you kind of like keep writing fun
for yourself when you have allthe pressure and the deadlines
yeah, I mean I, it is reallyhard and I think I'm still
trying to find that balanceright of like, how, how do I
protect the joy of writing with,um, you know, writing books
(39:09):
that are palatable to a market,um, because ultimately, like
that is also important forbetter or worse, and and so I
think you know sort of where I'mlanding.
Is that?
And this is the spirit in whichI think I wrote you With A View
, and the Ex-Fahos is likeultimately, I have to write a
(39:30):
book for myself first, um, andyou know I can keep in mind the
elements of something having agood hook and being compelling
and all of these differentthings.
But but it's also importantthat, like, I'm interested in
the book that I'm writingbecause I'm going to be writing
it every day for months andmonths and months.
(39:51):
I have to be compelled by it,and so I think a lot of the
things that I'm focusing on noware like what are the little
moments that I love as a reader,that I can infuse in as a
writer?
Like, what are the scenes ormoments that I can look forward
to?
What are elements that I wantto push myself with or just play
around with, or whatever youknow, I do like to challenge
(40:15):
myself to write, write in a waythat is obviously still me, but
like I don't know, I just I likeI want to push myself
creatively and and and not worryabout the risk of of what that
means, you know, commercially.
And so you know it's a finebalancing act because I think,
as a published writer like youcan't fully turn that voice off.
(40:39):
That's like this book is goingto be read by other people Like
I.
I think in the past I've beenlike, well, just don't think
about that.
And it's like well, no, I have.
Like I can't not think aboutthat.
That's not something that I can, you know, forget, but but I
can acknowledge that and honorit and still recognize that for
(41:00):
me what's most important is thatI'm loving it first, because I
think when I love a book, if Ilove the book more than anyone
else, like that feels a littlebit like a protection against,
against burnout, or like gettingmy feelings hurt if I'm tagged
in the negative review orwhatever it's like.
(41:22):
I mean, I find that annoying butI'm not going to.
Like, I think that I'm notgoing to be swayed by someone
else's opinion becauseultimately, I know what my
opinion is of the books that Iwrite and I love them so much
and I'm proud of them, and Ialways want to write books that
that feel like that and so sortof.
(41:43):
For me, it's like writingamidst the noise and remembering
what my number one priority is,which is to write a book that I
love.
Um, and it's a constantreminder, uh, that I don't, I
don't think, probably, itprobably never goes, goes away,
but it's, I think, veryimportant.
Kristen Bahls (42:02):
That makes sense.
That actually reminds me ofsomething that Rachel and
Solomon said whenever she wastrying to figure out one of her
YA books and she said that shegot stuck and she was like I
realized that I didn't like thechapter and I was like how?
Jessica Joyce (42:16):
is anyone?
Kristen Bahls (42:16):
else gonna like the chapter if I don't like the
chapters she's like, like then Idecided to just change it and
go a different direction.
Jessica Joyce (42:22):
I'm like wow you know, those are the things that
you don't think about untilyou're in it and then yeah it
just it helps and it seems likeso obvious, but it isn't always
because, again, like you are soaware that there is an audience
out there, um, but like you'rethe audience too, you're the
audience for yourself and you'rethe first audience and you know
(42:45):
it has to pass that checkbefore it can go on to anyone
else.
Kristen Bahls (42:50):
So can you tell me a little bit more kind of
about your, like, overallwriting journey, how you got
from fanfic which twilight yeah,okay, twilight fanfic to going
trad and yeah getting a deal andkind of how you ended up there.
Jessica Joyce (43:09):
I wrote fanfic in , I think it was from like 2009
to 2011, and that was likereally the peak of of the
Twilight fandom and um, and so Isort of exited the fandom as it
was, I think, starting to tocool down and I took a break,
(43:30):
you know, from sharing mywriting.
I didn't move on to any otherfandoms.
I never wrote fanfic for anyone, you know, any other, any other
fandom, and you know I had akid and I, you know, had another
job, and so I think I got sortof like obviously wrapped up in
that part of my life for anextended period of time and then
(43:54):
, when the pandemic hit, I wasjust kind of like, well, you
know, this has been a thingthat's been in the back of my
mind for a really long time andI just, like you, just never
know right, like what's going tohappen in life, what things are
going to hit us collectively orindividually, and I just need,
(44:15):
I just need to see if I can dothis, you know, and and I I
guess at that point I was justlike I don't want to leave
anything on the table and so in2020 slash early 2021, I wrote
that version of that otherversion of of Georgia and Eli.
I.
Um, I got onto Twitter, whichat the time RIP to it, but at
(44:36):
the time it was like a veryrobust resource for the writing
community and the romancewriting community in particular.
So I found, you know, mycritique partners, I found beta
readers.
I, you know, revised the Georgiaand Eli book and then started
(44:57):
sending it out to agents.
I think I sent it to like 15 or20 agents at the most.
And I had a sense pretty earlyon because at the time I was
surrounded by other writers whowere querying and stuff.
So I could see like when thequerying was a success, I could
see sort of the speed at whichit was happening and like the
(45:17):
volume at which agents wererequesting, and you know,
manuscripts and stuff like that.
And that just wasn't what washappening for for me with that
manuscript and so and I also Irun on like a hundred percent
gut instinct, like I'm zerostrategy, but I was like I just
know something's off, likesomething isn't right, and so I
(45:37):
started writing you With a Viewin May of 2021.
I wrote it through the summer.
I finished it in September.
Kristen Bahls (45:45):
Wow, that is so fast.
Jessica Joyce (45:48):
Yeah, it was so fast.
I will never be able to do thatagain.
I honestly wish that I hadn'twritten it so fast, because and
now I know that I'm capable ofit, but like I will never do
that again, like it's just not,it's not realistic, but so
anyway.
So I, you know, queried againjust like a handful of agents,
(46:11):
you know, because I had my otherexperience in the back of my
mind and I'm like, well, I justwant like a small data sample to
see if this is viable.
And I remember I submitted itto one agent in particular on
September 23rd and she wrote meback on September 25th, which
was my mom's birthday, and waslike I, I devoured this book,
(46:35):
like I want to talk to you, yada, yada.
I talked to a few other agentsand ended up going with, you
know, the agent that I have now,samantha Fabian, and by the end
of October we were on sub, onsubmission with with you With A
View, and I had signed my, or Ihad agreed to a deal with
(47:00):
Berkeley, like right beforeThanksgiving.
So it was very fast.
Yeah, that is so fast.
In that instance it was veryfast and I think, you know, I'm
glad that I have.
I mean, I wasn't glad at thetime but now, in hindsight again
, I'm really glad that I hadthat, you know, that first
(47:21):
experience to know that likeit's just, it really depends on
the manuscript, like it could,you know, it could just be right
time, right place and, and foryou with a view it was, and so
so, yeah, yeah, things did goquickly.
(47:45):
But I also know that speed isn'tnecessarily an indication of
success, because I know so manywriters who have been on sub for
six months or nine months or ayear or whatever, and still
ended up with great deals.
Still ended up with with greatdeals, and so it it's just, it's
(48:06):
so funny to to look ateverybody's sort of path to
publication and see howdifferent it is.
You know, and now there are alot of, um, indie authors who
end up going um, traditional orhybrid, and everybody's path is
so different, like there are amillion, literally probably,
different ways to get publishedand they're all so valid.
(48:26):
Especially, you know, when Iwas sort of in the querying
world, like traditionalpublishing was the thing that
you did and it was like I wantto get signed by a big five
house.
This is what I want my advanceto be.
This is like dah, dah, dah, dah.
And now I think, yeah, and Iknow we were talking about this
(48:47):
a little bit, but now I thinkit's like you have so many
different options and they'reall, like all you know, a
possibility for success.
Like I don't, I don't thinknecessarily one one way to do it
sets you up for success more,more than another way, and I
think I think that we're we'relucky to sort of live in the
(49:08):
landscape that we do now withwriting, because there there are
just so many options andthey're all like very solid
options.
So I love that, like if, like Itold you, if I were, if I were
in that seat right now, like ifI were querying right now, like
I would be looking at indie too,I think you know, they're all
(49:32):
just such great ways to to getyour work out there into the
world and obviously, like it'sall such hard work, like, not to
say that like, yeah, there's noeasy way at all.
Kristen Bahls (49:46):
There's no easy way, but there are lots of great
ways but they're all very hard.
Let me be clear.
Um, yeah, so not for the faintof heart at all.
Yeah, so not for the faint ofheart at all.
Not for the faint of heart.
Jessica Joyce (50:01):
Not at all, but it is.
You know.
It is definitely rewarding whenyou know people reach out to
you and are like I read thisbook and I love it.
And here's why and you know,they give you sort of personal
accounts of how they're feelingabout the work you put out.
It's just like no other feeling.
Kristen Bahls (50:23):
And I'm sure seeing all the collages and all
the cool stuff, that yeah that'snext level.
Cool.
Yeah, it's amazing.
It's just, it's so.
It's like a dream.
Oh, and didn't, wasn't there ananimation?
Jessica Joyce (50:39):
for the.
Kristen Bahls (50:39):
X-Files.
Yeah, I forgot about that for asecond.
Jessica Joyce (50:41):
That was so cool.
Yeah, the bookish animator,julia, she's amazing.
She had reached out and saidthat she was going to do
something like that and I wasjust like, oh my God, that's
amazing.
And then she posted what shehad created and it's phenomenal.
Just the amount of talentthat's out there like people
(51:04):
like and people doing this stufffor free.
I think is is just I don't know.
It blows my mind.
Kristen Bahls (51:10):
it really does, oh yeah okay, well, thank you so
much for taking the time totalk to me.
Thank you, of course, andthat's that's it for today.
Thanks for listening to where Ileft off a bookish podcast.
You can sign up for jessica'snewsletter, which I would highly
recommend, and you can purchaseher novels through the links in
the show notes.
(51:31):
Stay tuned for next time, thankyou, thank you.
Welcome back.
I'm kristen Balls and you'relistening to where I left off, a
bookish podcast, and today I'mjoined by the usa today
best-selling author of you witha view, a risk worth taking, and
her latest contemporary romancenovel, the E, jessica Joyce.
Hi, thank you so much for beinghere.
(00:29):
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
So the first and most importantquestion that I always ask
anyone that is on is what areyou currently reading?
Jessica Joyce (00:39):
Oh my gosh, I'm reading so much.
I um, and the vast majority ofthem are 2025 books.
So keep that in mind, I need tolike write a list of books that
I've read in the past that arecoming out now or just came out
this year, cause I'm like I'm ona totally different, I'm like
(01:00):
on a totally different timeline.
I'm like sitting in 2025, 2026.
I have a highlights tab on myInstagram profile where I talk
about books that I'mrecommending.
This one just came out, august6th, and it's called the Great
Dating Fake Off.
I didn't just read it.
I read it ages and ages agobecause Libby Hart, who wrote
(01:23):
the book she is one of mycritique partners but it did
just come out.
It's amazing.
It's fake dating with a twist,because the female main
character and the male maincharacter are fake dating other
people and they like, yeah, soit's like it's, it's fake dating
with a twist.
It's so brilliant.
So you get like sort of thatlike forbidden love element too,
(01:43):
because it's like theyobviously can't show interest in
each other because they're fakedating these other people.
Kristen Bahls (01:48):
Oh, wow.
Jessica Joyce (01:49):
And it's set at a wedding, like during the
wedding week of friends, andit's amazing, it's so funny.
I think Livvy Hart is like oneof the true sort of rom-com
writers she writes with likereally impeccable comedic timing
, so I adore that book.
And then I also didn't justread this one, but no One Does
(02:11):
it Like you by Katie Shepard,which is her latest that just
came out I want to say, lastweek.
It's Second Chance.
If you read her previous book,Sweeten the Deal, Sweeten the
Deal, You'll find characters inthis book that were in that book
.
They're connected standalones.
I'll say so, anyway, love thatbook.
(02:32):
I love Katie Shepard's writingSunshine and Spice by Aurora
Pellet I think that's how yousay her last name.
I've actually like she's afriend of mine and I've never
heard her last name spoken outloud, so I should get on top of
that.
But her debut just came out.
It is again Fake Dating, whichI love and let's see.
(02:55):
And then some 2025 books thatI've read recently.
First Time, Caller by BKMorrison oh I love that, yeah,
which is amazing.
Insp Holler by BK Morrison oh Ilove that, yeah, which is
amazing.
Inspired by Sleepless inSeattle, I read Tara DeWitt's
2025 release, Left of Forever,which is again sort of like a
(03:16):
connected standalone to Savor it, and it's second chance.
It's amazing.
She does like she's justbrilliant.
I recently listened to BetweenFriends and Lovers on Audible,
which was amazing.
I have Regina Black's 2025release on my Kindle.
I just started it.
(03:36):
It's called August Lane and itis about it's again a a second
chance.
I love second chance, so I'mlike I will eat them up every
time and it is about a countrysinger who goes back to um
connect with his like old highschool love who helped him write
(04:00):
like his sort of like one smashhit and he is a country singer.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I've been reading like a tonand they're all over the place
that that sounds like a ton.
Yeah, but they're, they're allamazing.
I feel like I'm I'm constantlylike the embarrassment of riches
so a second chance.
Kristen Bahls (04:20):
Your favorite trope or fake dating.
Jessica Joyce (04:23):
I think Second Chance is probably like one of
the top ones for me.
I do love fake dating, ofcourse, but I think Second
Chance and like Enemies slashRivals to Lovers are sort of my
like, really really favoriteones to read.
Kristen Bahls (04:39):
Because they might have.
Friends to Lovers and Enemiesto Lovers are top.
And then Force.
Proximity and Fake Dating areright underneath and then forced
proximity and fake dating areright underneath.
Jessica Joyce (04:47):
I know, yeah, those are so good too.
It's hard to pick, those are sogood.
Kristen Bahls (04:50):
It is, it is really hard to pick.
Oh my gosh, wow, you arereading like a lot, a lot.
I know, yeah, I got a lot on myplate.
How do you keep up witheverything?
Jessica Joyce (05:06):
You?
No, not very well, I mean.
I um, obviously you know, whenyou're a published author like
you, have opportunities to blurbbooks and I feel like I'm
always sort of like being like,yes, send me this book, oh, yeah
, I'm going to read this, andyou know.
And then, like I always missthe deadline to blurb and I'm
like sending in my blurb, youknow, two weeks late or whatever
, so, and I'm also a pretty slowreader and so it just takes.
(05:28):
Yeah, it takes a lot of time toactually, you know, get it done
, but I have been reading orlistening to a lot of audio
books lately and that's helpedme, like sort of like, not for
the 2025 releases, but for like2024 books, books that have just
been released that I've had onmy list.
That, like that, helps me sortof get through them.
Kristen Bahls (05:50):
What speed do you listen to your audiobooks on?
Jessica Joyce (05:52):
I'm so I'm kind of new to audiobooks and so and
actually I like posted this onthreads last, like a month ago
or something someone was likesomeone got mad at me for being
like oh, like, I like it'samazing to me that people can
listen on like two, you know 2.0and plus you know an over speed
(06:13):
.
But I am like really impressedby people who can listen that
fast.
I am at currently 1.4.
That's pretty good and that'sabout all I can handle, but I
really would like to get up tolike 1.8 maybe, but I'm, I don't
know, I'm okay.
Kristen Bahls (06:32):
I'm okay with 1.4 for now for me it kind of
depends on the narrator.
Sometimes I can listen at like1.75 or you know two but, you
just lose some inflection there.
So you know, and if they're afast talker, then you don't, you
can't process it.
So yeah, yeah, I switch, Iswitch.
Jessica Joyce (06:49):
Yeah, it's hard, it's like you know, my brain at
some point my brain just doesn'toperate that quickly and it's
like wait a second, hold on.
I missed like that entireparagraph.
I don't even know where we'reat right now.
Kristen Bahls (07:01):
So or you like, stop what you're doing and just
kind of stand there and listen,because you just can't, totally.
So we got a little teeny tinypreview at the end of the
X-Files of your next book, theSoulmate Charade.
What can you tell us about that?
Jessica Joyce (07:21):
Well, I can tell you that the snippet that's in
that book is not correct anymore.
It's out of date.
So, um, I'm, you know I'mrewriting it, because I got I
probably got like 40,000 wordsin um to my draft and I was like
, oh wow, this is all wrong, so,which is like always such a fun
(07:43):
realization, and so so, yeah,so I'm, I'm kind of redoing it
and and I also sort of learnedabout myself that, like, when I
share too much, then my brain islike, oh no, I don't want to do
it that way anymore, and soit's so hard because obviously I
want to share everything.
Like I am, I'm such anoversharer, like I will tell
(08:06):
everybody anything that'shappening in my brain at any
given moment.
But I have learned that, like I, I can't give too much away
when I'm still, you know, in theprocess of writing a thing, and
so I can't say much about itbecause I feel like I'm still
(08:26):
sort of in the discovery process.
I will say that I did post inlike one of my carousel posts on
Instagram, I did post like alittle portion of the playlist
that I put together for it andlike a little snippet of the
Pinterest board, because thosethings for me like always sort
(08:47):
of come first, like I'm alwaysplaying around with you know,
sort of the the media part of ofdrafting a book before I
actually dive in.
So it might give you like alittle hint of what you know the
vibes are.
But I don't even like I don'tthink I even really have the
tropes nailed down yet.
So I can't be like I don'tthink I even really have the
tropes nailed down yet.
So I can't be like it's thisand this and this.
(09:08):
It was originally supposed to befake dating and now I'm like I
don't know, I don't know if it'sgoing to be that or not, so I
don't know.
It's very interesting to writeon contract and to write books
that, like you know, are goingto be perceived by people and
that, like, people are activelywaiting for.
Because, like I, you know,prior to this, even when I wrote
(09:31):
the Ex-Fouse it was before itwas before you With a View came
out, you know, and so I was sortof writing those those books a
little bit in a silo becausenobody was really like knocking
on my door for little bit in asilo because nobody was really
like knocking on my door for theex-house, because which is a
kind of fun place to be to nothave to have the pressure.
(09:53):
yeah, yeah, right, like thereare just less expectations and,
in fact, like the onlyexpectations are my own, right,
like what, what do I want thisbook to be?
And so I think that was aninteresting sort of discovery
with this third book, because,you know, it was sort of like
and now people were like, oh,shoot, like I really want this
(10:16):
book and I'm like, okay, but Idon't know, you know, I don't
even know what it's about.
So, yeah, it does.
It's like the expectationsdefinitely add a different kind
of pressure, like I thinkthere's always an inherent
pressure to writing a book,right, because it's like such a
huge undertaking.
But the awareness, the externalawareness, I'll say, is like an
added like, an added thing tothink about.
(10:40):
So that has been interesting totry and balance that with like
writing a book that I want towrite and writing a book that I
know people been interesting totry and and balance that with
like writing a book that I wantto write and writing a book that
I know people will want to read, and you know, all of that it's
, it can be, it can be a reallycomplex like mental game,
honestly, that's weird, and ifsomething changes, like the
(11:01):
tropes, and you decide to go adifferent direction, can you
just like tell your editor andrepitch it, and then they give
you carte blanche to kind of goyour own way again yeah, I mean
my, my agent definitely does.
And you know I I did go to herand I was like, hey, knock,
knock, um, this is wrong.
And she was like, okay, and youknow, we, we did a lot of
(11:24):
brainstorming and and ultimatelyI was just like, you know, I'm
just gonna see where it goes.
And she's very much she is,she's so cool with that.
And you know like, uh, evenwith the X-Files, I had
submitted a synopsis, like a10-page synopsis or something,
of the book before I starteddrafting it.
(11:46):
Like that's one of sort of themilestones of of a book contract
is that you turn in a synopsisand then that gets approved.
And it's like a check mark onthe um, the deliverables and the
synopsis that I provided withher and the book that I
ultimately ended up turning inEssence was there.
But like, so many of the detailsjust changed in drafting, and
(12:10):
that is just my process.
Like I am a very chaoticdrafter.
I discover so much in thedrafting and so I can tell you
that the book is gonna be onething at the beginning, but then
by the time I'm done, I'm like,oh, actually, like it went
totally in this other directiondirection and it just kind of
like is what it is.
It's very weird, like it's.
(12:30):
It's weird to like talk aboutmy, my brain and creative
process as its own, likeseparate being from me or like
having its own free will, but itkind of does, like it just the
characters just take you andthey go where they want to go.
Yeah, they do, they really doit's.
It's pretty wild actually tolike be in that experience and
(12:51):
obviously you know, you know asa writer, like it just yeah,
like they just are like nope,we're gonna go do this actually,
and you're like, yeah, okay,that actually does make a lot of
sense for you and your art.
Kristen Bahls (13:03):
So thank you, and after reading that little
snippet, um, I kind of got apossible like magical realism
vibe.
Is that something that's inthere or is it more just kind of
like the energy of the place?
And of course you know it couldchange yeah, you're not, it's,
(13:24):
it's.
Jessica Joyce (13:24):
Yeah, there's.
No, there's no magical realism.
I mean, there is still a psychicelement to it, like there is
this psychic, an actual psychic,a person, but the the story
itself, I think is really rootedin to.
To be honest with you, I'm avery woo-woo person.
(13:45):
Like I have tarot, like I'msitting here with tarot decks on
my on my desk.
So I believe in you know, likeI believe in signs, the universe
doing its thing, like obviouslywe all have free will, but like
paths are carved out for us ifwe want to take them, that kind
(14:06):
of thing, and so so I think Ikind of always well, I played
around with it a little bit inyou with the view, because there
was a chapter with um or ascene with a tarot reader and
you know I talked a lot about,like you know, her grandma
giving her signs from, yeah,yeah and stuff like that, and so
I think this sort of playsaround with that too, of like
(14:28):
the universe sort of doing itsthing, but ultimately like we do
have free will over our livesand we are capable of making
choices, basically.
Kristen Bahls (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, makes sense.
Yeah, I couldn't tell you know,it's one of those things where
you read a chapter, I'm like Hmm, I don't know, it could go
either way.
Yeah, it could go either way.
It could go either way, but itsounded really good, so whatever
you let it on it'll, it'll begood.
I appreciate that.
So, talking a little bit aboutum you with the view for a
(15:01):
second, so there was bo's povchapter um that you let out for
newsletter subscribers yeah whenI got it on the pre-order um
incentive, I mistakenly finishedit like right before I was
going somewhere, and I don'tknow why.
I thought I wasn't gonna cry.
I've cried every book, but Iwas like oh, it's fine I'll just
(15:23):
finish it up like I only have10 pages left.
I think yes, I only have liketwo pages left, and so I read it
and I just could not stopcrying.
I was like Jessica, why did youdo this?
So it is amazing, but it'savailable on your newsletter for
everyone to view yeah, yeah,widely released for anyone who
wants to read it.
Jessica Joyce (15:42):
And you know, I originally, I originally planned
it to be just like one scene,like a scene from the book from
his point of view and, of course, like everything you know, it
just sort of ran away from meand all of a sudden it was like
32 pages and 8,000 words andlike this whole, this whole
(16:03):
concept, concept, you know, offive vignettes, of when, you
know, he thought about lovingher so um, but it was really fun
.
It was fun to write and it wasjust so fun to like be back with
them.
You know, because I I wrote youwith a view back in 2021, so
it's been three years since I'vetouched those characters and,
yeah, it was really fun to tovisit them again, see them happy
(16:26):
and I'm actually rereading youWith a View right now, and it's
kind of fun, after having readthat POV, so soon going back and
reading it.
Kristen Bahls (16:37):
There are little things that I didn't notice the
first time that what did?
Noelle say she said somethingthe other day like, um, uh, no
one's ever loved me like that orsomething, whenever she was
talking about her grandma.
I'm like, oh, I didn't catchthat before and so now you know
you can kind of catch all that.
Jessica Joyce (16:51):
So it it's really fun to read back yeah, I love
those callbacks too, like Ireally wanted to include, like
some of those callbacks thatthat you know tied back to um,
to to you at the View, because Ifeel like readers are always so
savvy about like catching thatstuff, um, especially when they
(17:12):
have a sort of the additionalcontext of of Theo's point of
view.
So, yeah, I loved, I loved allmaking all of those little
connections back to the originalbook.
Kristen Bahls (17:21):
Focusing on the expo, yeah, so okay, you've said
on social media that you know alot of like mundane things
about all of your characters, um, so this is quite a question.
But if you would like to sharesomething about, of course,
georgia and Eli, um, I mean, ifyou can think of something for
(17:43):
Noelle and Theo and Claire andConnor, um I would.
We would all appreciate thattoo.
But anything you want to giveus about them, that's something
that maybe we haven't heardbefore in the books lately.
Jessica Joyce (17:57):
It's so funny because, like, I'm always like,
I'm always just like sort ofrandomly thinking about, about
stuff like that, like I wasthinking recently about which of
my characters would be mostlikely to like leave a function
without saying goodbye, and I'mlike, well, theo Spencer.
(18:17):
Of course he would be like Idon't even want to be here in
the first place, like goodbye,um.
So I think that he is like verymuch that type of person.
Um, I think that I don't know,like with Eli, I put so much, so
many like just like tinytidbits of information.
Like he loves puzzles and likehe loves you know, he loves like
(18:40):
getting inappropriate snacks atthe airport, like, you know,
eating chocolate at eighto'clock in the morning morning,
and so I think, like you know,if someone, if someone like asks
me a leading question, I can belike, oh yeah, like this person
would do this and this personwould do that, or if I see
something happening, you know,in in the natural environment,
(19:03):
I'd be like, oh, I think, Ithink Noelle would do that, like
I think Georgia would organizeher, her books, in rainbow order
.
You know what I mean.
Like that I'll see.
I'll like sort of like I'll seea post about that and be like,
yeah, georgia would so do that,or like you know, just stuff
like that.
But I've thought about likeputting, like literally having a
worksheet where I just likeenter in random information and
(19:26):
like put which character woulddo what under you know, like the
Irish exit thing, or like whowould let their gas tank get to
zero before going to fill it upagain and who would, like you
know, at half a tank, would beat the gas station filling it up
.
You know, like all of that sortof stuff.
Maybe I'll do that.
I think it's like such a funlittle thing to think about.
(19:49):
Like you know, just them doing,like these very human things
you know.
So I do always think about that, yeah, but I need to write it
down so that I can remember it.
Kristen Bahls (19:59):
And then every time you send out a newsletter,
just include like onecharacter's thing in there.
Hey, I know, like here's yourlatest random tidbit.
Yeah, I love that.
Oh, oh, yeah, I forgot to eventell you earlier.
Um, I have a book spreadsheetthat I use that helps me keep up
with like all the books, and Iput little notes, little random
(20:21):
things like that so there you go, you could have that and then
you could also have a bookspreadsheet for your book.
So then you'll, you'll have somany spreadsheets, you won't
have time to ever update them inany way but you'll have them
there and you can feel like yeah, I.
Jessica Joyce (20:41):
You know I love a good spreadsheet.
I'm not good at them, but I do.
I do appreciate them for whatthey are, for sure are for sure.
Kristen Bahls (20:57):
So georgia, theo eli and noelle they all went to
the same high school.
Jessica Joyce (20:59):
Wait and claire also went to that high school,
correct?
She didn't, or she did not?
No, she didn't.
Claire and claire and connoraren't directly linked to them,
um, until until connor goes toto work for Theo's company in
the novella.
So they're like a lateraddition to the universe.
(21:20):
But yes, noel and Theo and Eliand Georgia all went to high
school together, althoughactually Eli didn't, because he
comes to Glenlake sophomore yearand Noelle and Theo.
In my head Noelle and Theo wereseniors when yeah, when Georgia
(21:41):
.
So Georgia and Adam went tohigh school with them, but Eli
missed them.
So they would have graduated,yeah, in high school?
Kristen Bahls (21:47):
Yeah, that makes sense, I don't know why.
Graduated in high school?
Yeah, that makes sense.
I don't know why, claire, forsome reason I was thinking that
there was something where shesaid something about Noel
without saying Noel.
I am totally wrong, but I don'tknow why.
That's why I was thinking likeshe said something, I don't know
.
I felt like she said somethingabout a girl from high school
but, honestly, I could totallybe wrong.
That was Georgia.
That was Georgia.
(22:07):
Yeah, that was Georgia what Iwas thinking of, claire.
Yeah, I need to go back andreread.
Yeah, I mean, if you must, yeah, oh man, um, so do you do?
Do you intend to like continuein future books to include all
the easter eggs all the time andkind of relate the characters,
(22:28):
or is this next one going to bea little bit different?
Jessica Joyce (22:30):
No, I definitely like.
I just love, I love the conceptof like invisible strings, and
so I love the idea of therebeing sort of this continuation,
like obviously they're notthese books aren't are
standalones, they're not sequelsof each other in any way, shape
or form.
But I also love the idea that,like, the world is much smaller
(22:54):
than we think it is and that wecould, you know, have even just
these like really temporaryconnections with people, whether
it's like you went to highschool with each other and you
still, like follow them onsocial media or or whatever.
So I do want to still sort ofhave those, those little strings
(23:16):
from from story to story, and Ithink you know it will evolve.
Like I do love the idea of Theoand Noel sort of being like the
original source material of,like all of these little
connections, but I imagine, likeat some point, like it will,
you know, as more books become,get written and stuff like that,
(23:38):
like that that sort of web willexpand.
So, yeah, I do.
I do want to do like somethingin every book that people can be
like oh my god, like that's youknow whoever?
Kristen Bahls (23:51):
yeah, because I know people are always looking
for those especially and I likehow you never name the
characters, so it's like alittle extra treasure.
Yeah, you have to try toremember exactly who and who did
what.
So what does your um initialkind of like character
development process look like?
(24:11):
I know you said it's kind ofhard to talk about.
You know what goes through yourbrain, but when you're kind of
first deciding what a characterlike, should or shouldn't be, is
there?
are there certain things thatyou think of first, or it's just
kind of as you start buildingthem.
Jessica Joyce (24:26):
I mean, usually what I do is I think of, like,
what their emotional wound is.
And so you know, like forNoelle, obviously, it was on one
hand like her grandma dying andon the other her feeling like
she wasn't successful, that shepeaked in high school.
And then, you know, for Georgia, it was really like this sense
(24:48):
of feeling like she couldn'thold on to people and like
couldn't be messy and likehonest with her feelings or that
you know, more people wouldleave her.
So I usually start with somesort of emotional wound.
I always call it like a thesisa little bit.
You know, like what is thethesis of this book?
And and, and that usually helpsme sort of flesh out who these
(25:11):
characters are, who the maincharacter is for sure, like at
first, and then usually whathappens is I build everybody
else around her Like it's herworld and everyone.
You know, it's like she'sBarbie and everyone else is just
Ken, you know.
But I do obviously want tocreate depth in everybody who's
on page, especially the loveinterest, and so I do tend to
(25:35):
build everything else aroundlike what is that core wound?
You know, how would she behaveLike?
What would her personality belike if this was who she was
Like.
For Georgia, an easy example islike if she's afraid to be messy
and like, show people who sheis, you know, for fear of them
leaving her, then she wouldtotally be a people pleaser and
(25:57):
like, very sunshine and helpfuland like let me do this, I'll do
this for you, like, and neverasking for help herself.
And and so you know, some ofthat, just like think, comes
naturally once I've identifiedwhat the wound is, and then some
of it just sort of comes topass as I'm writing the book.
(26:17):
A lot of it, like I said, isdiscovery.
I learn things about characters, main characters, secondary
characters, whatever.
As I'm writing too, I'll belike oh my gosh, well, I didn't
know that that's the way youfelt, but sure I'll put it down.
Yeah, so that's typically how Iapproach it, and then
everything gets fleshed out as Igo.
Kristen Bahls (26:38):
Is there a character in the Ex-Files that
kind of surprised you the mostas you were writing it?
Jessica Joyce (26:44):
Yeah, cole did.
Who's Adam's cousin?
You know the stirrerextraordinaire.
Who's Adam's cousin?
You know, mr Extraordinaire.
And it's funny because I got anemail today from somebody who
had just read the X-Files andshe was like please write a Cole
book.
Kristen Bahls (27:00):
You know like I was just about to ask you, yeah.
Jessica Joyce (27:04):
Like I want a book about Cole.
So I have, I have heard that andhe like, when I sort of
outlined because because I neverreally I never outlined the way
I think most people outlinewhich is like here's what
happens in chapter one, chaptertwo, I'm like, well, here's what
could happen in the first threechapters, and then after that I
don't know, like don't ask me.
(27:24):
And so you know, when I was sortof outlining and doing a
synopsis of the X-Files, he likedidn't even exist in my mind.
But I did realize as I wasdrafting and as they were sort
of getting closer to Blue Yonder, I'm like there needs to be
somebody there who is gonna likekeep them on their toes.
(27:44):
And and so Cole, really, youknow, sprang from from that need
of they need to have somebodythere who is going to like be
suspicious and like force themto work together.
You know, it's not enough thatAdam and Grace are, you know, 60
(28:04):
, 70 miles away expecting themto help out.
So he kind of sprang from thatand then, like I don't know, he
just like took on a kind ofsprang from that and then, like
I don't know, he just like tookon a life of his own from there.
Kristen Bahls (28:13):
All of a sudden, him and Eli were like friends
and he knew all about you knowwhat, and he had a little
sweetheart side to him too doesyeah, and honestly, like those
are kind of my favoritecharacters where, like they
present one way and like on theinside are just like soft and
gooey.
Jessica Joyce (28:31):
So it would be cool to like to to play around
with him in a full-length book,because I think that he does
have like so many layers to him.
He could wreak a lot of havoc,I think, which would be fun oh
yeah, that would be a lot of fun.
Kristen Bahls (28:48):
It's on my list, I was gonna say, and he's kind
of perfect because you put himin there just enough to where we
know his personality, but youdidn't like pigeonhole him into
any one thing to where you couldreally kind of like take him
wherever you want, want him togo exactly.
Jessica Joyce (29:03):
Yeah, that that is by design.
Yeah, I don't want to be.
Kristen Bahls (29:08):
I don't want to be stuck to anything that would
be the worst, especially withyour drafting process being
stuck to.
Jessica Joyce (29:13):
That sounds like it would just kill your
creativity, oh my god totally.
Kristen Bahls (29:17):
Yeah, that would be terrible.
So if you were going to cast afilm adaptation of the X-Files,
who?
Jessica Joyce (29:25):
would you?
Kristen Bahls (29:25):
pick for Georgia and Levi.
Jessica Joyce (29:29):
This is such a good question.
I've gotten this a few timesrecently and I always say first
of all, I'm not good at, like,face casting my characters.
I like I always have a clearidea of who they are in my head,
but they don't look like aperson that actually exists.
(29:49):
But I think that, like withthat, actually exists, but I
think that, like with that inmind, I think that I would want
two virtual unknowns, like Iwould.
I can't think of anything likeanyone super famous that I would
be like oh, I would want them.
You know, like that, that is myGeorgia, that is my Eli.
I feel like having somebodylike people who don't have a fan
(30:15):
awareness to them could be yeah, like they're that type of
actor and they're yeah asked inthis kind of role right exactly
so I don't know.
I can't think of anybody off thetop of my head that I'm like
that, like that's Georgia,that's an Eli, but I, I'm also
willing to be surprised, likeNetflix.
Call me and we can like, if youwant to hire someone famous.
(30:38):
I will get on board.
Kristen Bahls (30:43):
I had to, but this, like you said, it's so
hard.
I don't, I don't know you're.
You might be like, nope, that's, that's not, but okay, okay
here here's what I have.
So they are a little bit on theolder side, but if you think
about it, you know there arelike 30 year olds playing high
(31:06):
school kids and the magic oflike makeup and all that kind of
stuff you know the the world'syour oysters.
So I'm thinking possibly for Eli, I don't know why.
I kind of saw Chase Crawford alittle bit oh yeah, I could see
that I thought that he mightkind of have that like really
(31:27):
attractive, but a little bit oflike that smirk, that that kind
of like trouble air.
And then for Georgia, I wasactually thinking like maybe
Rachel Bilson, oh yeah, so Idon't know, those were kind of
my yeah, I could see that.
Yeah, totally that I wasplaying around with.
Jessica Joyce (31:44):
Yeah, I always love hearing what other people
think, cause I'm like I see thevision.
I totally see the vision.
Kristen Bahls (31:51):
And you're so close to it that I'm sure it's
really hard, when you're thatclose to it, to ever look at any
actors or actresses and pickanyone.
Yeah, 100%.
Jessica Joyce (32:01):
Because I'm like, well, I know all of these
things about them and it's morenuanced than that, but it really
isn't.
I mean.
You know, when it comes down toit it's not it really isn't.
Kristen Bahls (32:12):
I mean, you know, when it comes down to it it's
not true.
And hopefully, if the actors,like, had the screenplay in
their hands, then they wouldadapt to totally so.
It is hard to pick, you know,based on who's done what exactly
out there.
Oh my gosh.
Um, so in in theacknowledgements of the ex-files
, you talk a little bit abouthow the book changed from the
original and, like you saidearlier, so you wrote the
(32:33):
ex-files, put it away yeah wroteyou with the view and then kind
of rewrote it and came backwith it.
Yeah, how, how did that work?
And how did you part with thecharacters that you had before?
Jessica Joyce (32:47):
it was hard, it was really hard at first and I
rewrote the first, you know, thefirst third of that book like
three different times because Iwas just like I don't know who
they are as this version ofpeople, you know.
And so the first version Iwrote was it was friends to
(33:09):
lovers, wrote was it was friendsto lovers.
It was still.
You know, adams was a piece ofthe pie for sure, but like Eli
and Georgia got together halfwaythrough the book and then the
rest of the book was themdealing with like long distance
um dating, and it just didn'tfollow sort of like the natural
beats of a romance book that Ithink you need in order to
(33:31):
maintain tension and likeintrigue and all sorts of stuff.
So in hindsight I see why itdidn't go anywhere.
I'm like, oh yeah, duh.
So I had that sort of in mindwhen I decided to reimagine it.
I was like, well, that like thestakes need to be higher, the
tension needs to be higher, andI think Second Chance has like
such a natural tension to it andit's very emotion-based, which
(33:56):
I love.
Like I love digging intocharacter emotions, I love like
getting in the mess of it, likeI just I love, all of that, and
so having them be exes versusfriends felt like an easy way
for me to take it to the nextlevel, and I do think that
friends to lovers can have a tonof tension the way I did it.
(34:19):
It didn't so, but I read plentyof friends to lovers that I've
been like on the edge of my seat.
So it was it's not the trope,it's me, but I felt like, you
know, second Chance really didhave that, that level up that I
wanted for the book and so butyeah, it was hard because, you
know, obviously I had writtenthis other version of them, the
(34:53):
friends to lovers version.
He was a lot more jokey and likesort of like devil may care,
and in the second chance versionobviously he's pretty internal,
he's quieter, he is a lot moreserious, he's dealing with
anxiety, you know, and and thatfelt like it's sort of a
necessary change because Iwanted like, even though Georgia
knows, like she knows him sowell, there had to be an element
(35:15):
of him, of her not knowing apiece of him this present day
and I think like a quieterpersonality fits that a little
bit better.
So I had to sort of reimaginethat too and it was very hard.
For a while, I think, probablyuntil I got like halfway through
the book, the draft, I wasalways sort of in my mind,
(35:36):
referencing that other versionand being like, oh, but in that
version they do this and like,am I really going to do this
instead?
And I, you know, once I gotsort of halfway through, then
I'm like, okay, well, this is atotally different story, so I'm
just like thinking about them ina different way.
But it was very difficult forsure to like get to that point.
It was very painful,unfortunately.
Kristen Bahls (36:01):
I can't imagine, and I mean like you said, it
really does work out better,because not only did they lose
each other, as like in arelationship stance, but they
lost that friendship that, yeah,they had for so long, and it's
you feel it a little bit greaterand why she's so totally
(36:22):
destroyed, because it's just atotal loss.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, that wouldbe so hard, but it worked out at
the end.
It worked out in the end, wasit?
Was it you that kind of madethe decision to change it, or
was it like feedback from otherpeople or what kind of like
(36:45):
tipped the pendulum a little bit?
Jessica Joyce (36:48):
Well, when I got the deal, when I got the book
deal with Berkeley, it was a twobook deal and they had asked,
you know, in the process oftalking to them before I signed
the contract, they were like youknow, do you have an idea for a
second book?
And I'm sort of like it's hardfor me to come up with multiple
(37:08):
ideas at once, like if I'm, ifI'm working on an idea, like
that is my entire life, that ismy world, and so I didn't really
cause I had just been, Iobviously had just come off you
With A View, and so I didn'treally have anything like
anything new in mind.
But I knew that I had Georgiaand Eli and I knew that I had to
write it differently.
(37:29):
And so, you know, the secondchance element and all of that
sort of came from me, cause Iwas like, well, I know that it
has to be stronger than this,and so that was the concept that
I, that I pitched to, that myagent pitched to to Berkeley.
But you know that the secondchance element of it definitely
came from me in terms of likethis is how I want to reimagine
(37:51):
it.
Kristen Bahls (37:52):
That makes sense.
I mean, and you changed my mind, second chance was not my
favorite.
And you, you changed my mind,second Chance was not my
favorite and you changed my mind.
Jessica Joyce (38:02):
I love it.
That's the ultimate compliment.
Kristen Bahls (38:06):
Every time I hear that I'm like, yes, okay,
perfect.
I actually had someone elsethat we were chatting and they
were like I mean I don't love it, but you know, I'll read it
because I'll read anything,especially if it's, you know, by
someone you like and it soundsgood.
And I had someone that was likeI will not read second chance,
I won't read it, and I was likejust read, it and they were like
okay, okay, fine, fine, I'lladd it so it was on their TBR
(38:29):
and obviously.
I am just like patiently waitingwhenever, like, they get there.
So how are we feeling?
I, yeah, I appreciate yourreading, I love it.
So how?
I mean we talked a little bitabout it, just the pressure in
general.
Jessica Joyce (38:45):
But how do you kind of like keep writing fun
for yourself when you have allthe pressure and the deadlines
yeah, I mean I, it is reallyhard and I think I'm still
trying to find that balanceright of like, how, how do I
protect the joy of writing with,um, you know, writing books
(39:09):
that are palatable to a market,um, because ultimately, like
that is also important forbetter or worse, and and so I
think you know sort of where I'mlanding.
Is that?
And this is the spirit in whichI think I wrote you With A View
, and the Ex-Fahos is likeultimately, I have to write a
(39:30):
book for myself first, um, andyou know I can keep in mind the
elements of something having agood hook and being compelling
and all of these differentthings.
But but it's also importantthat, like, I'm interested in
the book that I'm writingbecause I'm going to be writing
it every day for months andmonths and months.
(39:51):
I have to be compelled by it,and so I think a lot of the
things that I'm focusing on noware like what are the little
moments that I love as a reader,that I can infuse in as a
writer?
Like, what are the scenes ormoments that I can look forward
to?
What are elements that I wantto push myself with or just play
around with, or whatever youknow, I do like to challenge
(40:15):
myself to write, write in a waythat is obviously still me, but
like I don't know, I just I likeI want to push myself
creatively and and and not worryabout the risk of of what that
means, you know, commercially.
And so you know it's a finebalancing act because I think,
as a published writer like youcan't fully turn that voice off.
(40:39):
That's like this book is goingto be read by other people Like
I.
I think in the past I've beenlike, well, just don't think
about that.
And it's like well, no, I have.
Like I can't not think aboutthat.
That's not something that I can, you know, forget, but but I
can acknowledge that and honorit and still recognize that for
(41:00):
me what's most important is thatI'm loving it first, because I
think when I love a book, if Ilove the book more than anyone
else, like that feels a littlebit like a protection against,
against burnout, or like gettingmy feelings hurt if I'm tagged
in the negative review orwhatever it's like.
(41:22):
I mean, I find that annoying butI'm not going to.
Like, I think that I'm notgoing to be swayed by someone
else's opinion becauseultimately, I know what my
opinion is of the books that Iwrite and I love them so much
and I'm proud of them, and Ialways want to write books that
that feel like that and so sortof.
(41:43):
For me, it's like writingamidst the noise and remembering
what my number one priority is,which is to write a book that I
love.
Um, and it's a constantreminder, uh, that I don't, I
don't think, probably, itprobably never goes, goes away,
but it's, I think, veryimportant.
Kristen Bahls (42:02):
That makes sense.
That actually reminds me ofsomething that Rachel and
Solomon said whenever she wastrying to figure out one of her
YA books and she said that shegot stuck and she was like I
realized that I didn't like thechapter and I was like how?
Jessica Joyce (42:16):
is anyone?
Kristen Bahls (42:16):
else gonna like the chapter if I don't like the
chapters she's like, like then Idecided to just change it and
go a different direction.
Jessica Joyce (42:22):
I'm like wow you know, those are the things that
you don't think about untilyou're in it and then yeah it
just it helps and it seems likeso obvious, but it isn't always
because, again, like you are soaware that there is an audience
out there, um, but like you'rethe audience too, you're the
audience for yourself and you'rethe first audience and you know
(42:45):
it has to pass that checkbefore it can go on to anyone
else.
Kristen Bahls (42:50):
So can you tell me a little bit more kind of
about your, like, overallwriting journey, how you got
from fanfic which twilight yeah,okay, twilight fanfic to going
trad and yeah getting a deal andkind of how you ended up there.
Jessica Joyce (43:09):
I wrote fanfic in , I think it was from like 2009
to 2011, and that was likereally the peak of of the
Twilight fandom and um, and so Isort of exited the fandom as it
was, I think, starting to tocool down and I took a break,
(43:30):
you know, from sharing mywriting.
I didn't move on to any otherfandoms.
I never wrote fanfic for anyone, you know, any other, any other
fandom, and you know I had akid and I, you know, had another
job, and so I think I got sortof like obviously wrapped up in
that part of my life for anextended period of time and then
(43:54):
, when the pandemic hit, I wasjust kind of like, well, you
know, this has been a thingthat's been in the back of my
mind for a really long time andI just, like you, just never
know right, like what's going tohappen in life, what things are
going to hit us collectively orindividually, and I just need,
(44:15):
I just need to see if I can dothis, you know, and and I I
guess at that point I was justlike I don't want to leave
anything on the table and so in2020 slash early 2021, I wrote
that version of that otherversion of of Georgia and Eli.
I.
Um, I got onto Twitter, whichat the time RIP to it, but at
(44:36):
the time it was like a veryrobust resource for the writing
community and the romancewriting community in particular.
So I found, you know, mycritique partners, I found beta
readers.
I, you know, revised the Georgiaand Eli book and then started
(44:57):
sending it out to agents.
I think I sent it to like 15 or20 agents at the most.
And I had a sense pretty earlyon because at the time I was
surrounded by other writers whowere querying and stuff.
So I could see like when thequerying was a success, I could
see sort of the speed at whichit was happening and like the
(45:17):
volume at which agents wererequesting, and you know,
manuscripts and stuff like that.
And that just wasn't what washappening for for me with that
manuscript and so and I also Irun on like a hundred percent
gut instinct, like I'm zerostrategy, but I was like I just
know something's off, likesomething isn't right, and so I
(45:37):
started writing you With a Viewin May of 2021.
I wrote it through the summer.
I finished it in September.
Kristen Bahls (45:45):
Wow, that is so fast.
Jessica Joyce (45:48):
Yeah, it was so fast.
I will never be able to do thatagain.
I honestly wish that I hadn'twritten it so fast, because and
now I know that I'm capable ofit, but like I will never do
that again, like it's just not,it's not realistic, but so
anyway.
So I, you know, queried againjust like a handful of agents,
(46:11):
you know, because I had my otherexperience in the back of my
mind and I'm like, well, I justwant like a small data sample to
see if this is viable.
And I remember I submitted itto one agent in particular on
September 23rd and she wrote meback on September 25th, which
was my mom's birthday, and waslike I, I devoured this book,
(46:35):
like I want to talk to you, yada, yada.
I talked to a few other agentsand ended up going with, you
know, the agent that I have now,samantha Fabian, and by the end
of October we were on sub, onsubmission with with you With A
View, and I had signed my, or Ihad agreed to a deal with
(47:00):
Berkeley, like right beforeThanksgiving.
So it was very fast.
Yeah, that is so fast.
In that instance it was veryfast and I think, you know, I'm
glad that I have.
I mean, I wasn't glad at thetime but now, in hindsight again
, I'm really glad that I hadthat, you know, that first
(47:21):
experience to know that likeit's just, it really depends on
the manuscript, like it could,you know, it could just be right
time, right place and, and foryou with a view it was, and so
so, yeah, yeah, things did goquickly.
(47:45):
But I also know that speed isn'tnecessarily an indication of
success, because I know so manywriters who have been on sub for
six months or nine months or ayear or whatever, and still
ended up with great deals.
Still ended up with with greatdeals, and so it it's just, it's
(48:06):
so funny to to look ateverybody's sort of path to
publication and see howdifferent it is.
You know, and now there are alot of, um, indie authors who
end up going um, traditional orhybrid, and everybody's path is
so different, like there are amillion, literally probably,
different ways to get publishedand they're all so valid.
(48:26):
Especially, you know, when Iwas sort of in the querying
world, like traditionalpublishing was the thing that
you did and it was like I wantto get signed by a big five
house.
This is what I want my advanceto be.
This is like dah, dah, dah, dah.
And now I think, yeah, and Iknow we were talking about this
(48:47):
a little bit, but now I thinkit's like you have so many
different options and they'reall, like all you know, a
possibility for success.
Like I don't, I don't thinknecessarily one one way to do it
sets you up for success more,more than another way, and I
think I think that we're we'relucky to sort of live in the
(49:08):
landscape that we do now withwriting, because there there are
just so many options andthey're all like very solid
options.
So I love that, like if, like Itold you, if I were, if I were
in that seat right now, like ifI were querying right now, like
I would be looking at indie too,I think you know, they're all
(49:32):
just such great ways to to getyour work out there into the
world and obviously, like it'sall such hard work, like, not to
say that like, yeah, there's noeasy way at all.
Kristen Bahls (49:46):
There's no easy way, but there are lots of great
ways but they're all very hard.
Let me be clear.
Um, yeah, so not for the faintof heart at all.
Yeah, so not for the faint ofheart at all.
Not for the faint of heart.
Jessica Joyce (50:01):
Not at all, but it is.
You know.
It is definitely rewarding whenyou know people reach out to
you and are like I read thisbook and I love it.
And here's why and you know,they give you sort of personal
accounts of how they're feelingabout the work you put out.
It's just like no other feeling.
Kristen Bahls (50:23):
And I'm sure seeing all the collages and all
the cool stuff, that yeah that'snext level.
Cool.
Yeah, it's amazing.
It's just, it's so.
It's like a dream.
Oh, and didn't, wasn't there ananimation?
Jessica Joyce (50:39):
for the.
Kristen Bahls (50:39):
X-Files.
Yeah, I forgot about that for asecond.
Jessica Joyce (50:41):
That was so cool.
Yeah, the bookish animator,julia, she's amazing.
She had reached out and saidthat she was going to do
something like that and I wasjust like, oh my God, that's
amazing.
And then she posted what shehad created and it's phenomenal.
Just the amount of talentthat's out there like people
(51:04):
like and people doing this stufffor free.
I think is is just I don't know.
It blows my mind.
Kristen Bahls (51:10):
it really does, oh yeah okay, well, thank you so
much for taking the time totalk to me.
Thank you, of course, andthat's that's it for today.
Thanks for listening to where Ileft off a bookish podcast.
You can sign up for jessica'snewsletter, which I would highly
recommend, and you can purchaseher novels through the links in
the show notes.
(51:31):
Stay tuned for next time, thankyou, thank you.
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