May 29, 2025 • 20 mins
Thanks to author Sue Hincenbergs for joining me to talk about her debut, The Retirement Plan.
Follow Sue Hincenbergs:
Books discussed in the episode:
- My Darkest Prayer by SA Cosby
- Blacktop Wasteland by SA Cosby
- Get Shorty by Elmore Leonard
- Most Wonderful Crime of the Year by Ally Carter
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to take you to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send us a message button" above.
For more, follow along on Instagram @whereileftoffpod.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls and you'relistening to when I Left Off a
bookish podcast, and today I'mjoined by Sue Hensenberg, the
author of the Retirement Plan.
Thank you so much for joiningme today, sue.
Thank you for inviting me.
The first question that Ialways ask everyone, because
authors just have the bestrecommendations what are you
currently reading right now?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Oh, let's see, I've always loved John Grisham, so I
just finished reading one of hisbooks.
And then one of the authorsI've just discovered, as I've
been visiting a lot ofbookstores, is SA Cosby.
I was in a bookstore in theSouth and they told me about him
.
I'm like, oh, I have to lookinto him.
So I just finished reading, Ihave to look what.
It was my Darkest Prayer.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And now I'm reading Blacktop Wasteland and then I
know he's got another new bookcoming out shortly Nice, and you
talked a little bit aboutvisiting some bookstores.
You've kind of had this wholebook tour going for the
retirement plan.
How was that?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
book tour going for the retirement plan.
How was that?
It was great.
You know, book people are kindof the best people.
You go in and then you juststart talking about books and
like that was one of the thingsis like to discover like a whole
new author I'd never heard of.
I don't know if it's just he'snot that well known in Toronto
and Canada or what, but it wasjust really good.
And then in like another state,I was reminded about Pat Conroy
, who I used to read when I wasmuch younger.
(01:27):
Like, uh, gosh Conrock was oneof his books.
I forget the others, but um,anyway, like I picked up one of
his.
I'm dying to read too, uh,south of Broad.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So it was, it was good, it's just and that was
just somebody mentioning it, youknow that and reminding me
about how much I enjoyed thosebooks and it's funny how you
could kind of like default toyour normal authors if you know
you don't think about likebranching out, and then all it
takes is someone to talk aboutsomeone else and you're like, oh
, I need to give them a try.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And what can you tell us currently about your work in
progress, if anything?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I've finished it and it's just in revisions
and it's on the same tone.
It took me a while to figureout, like exactly what my voice
is and what I, what I liked andand I hopefully what my readers
will like, you know.
So I wanted to keep them,something as a good follow-up to
the retirement plan.
So it's the same kind of thinga crime, friendship, marriage
(02:23):
and in a neighborhood type thing.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So working on that, Nice and do you know if it'll be
out next year?
It's supposed to be out 2027.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
The winter of 2027 we're aiming for.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Nice.
Yay, wow, that's quick.
He was really quick.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, Really, Because for me it seems so long it's
like you know, the longestpregnancy ever.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, but you know, your book is just coming out and
then you already have revisionson another one.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
That seems quick or a trad pub yeah, and actually I'm
glad I did it that way.
And another author I was havingdinner with and she asked me
about the second book and I said, oh, I've already handed it in
and without even realizing it.
She said that's really smart,because once, like now, I'm tied
up with retirement plan, likeso I'm so distracted from
writing that I'm looking forwardto like things quieting down
and then I can get back back toit.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Do you already have an idea for the next book once
you finish book two?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, kind of yeah, that's more like a family thing.
I find like I think thestrength of the retirement plan
is the humor, like it's a reallygood tight plot, but then I
love that there's I've layeredhumor in on it.
So I was trying to look foranother good situation scenario
that you could mine for a lot ofhumor and, like you know, I
think I found one that I'mwaiting to dive into.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And overall like how do you balance humor in your
book with kind of serioussubject matters too, Because
that seems like a hard balanceto strike.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, I think what's most important is plot.
I think if I stripped away thehumor, the book would still, I
think, be really strong just onplot.
And to me the humor is justlike buttercream frosting, you
know, it's just like it justmakes it better.
Buttercream frosting, you know,it's just like it just makes it
better.
But the book could stand aloneon plot and keep, keep people
surprised and engaged.
(04:10):
But the humor is just, it'slike the most fun for me, like
as much as I enjoyed the plotand piecing together the puzzles
, like it's like a jigsaw in alot of ways.
If I could make a sceneinteresting and make it funny,
that's what I would do.
Sometimes I would have a scenethat would just be business,
like this is what has to happenin this.
But then it's like how can Imake that funny?
(04:30):
And whenever there's friendsthere's, there should be funny,
like even in, like the, theworst moments of something
there's, like there's somethingabout that they'll make your,
your friend can make you laugh,and so that's what I tried to do
and I love those, those kind ofmovies too.
If you ever watched Die Hard,you know the old Bruce Willis
movie, like that's, that's thesame kind of thing right, it's
like strong plot, lots of action, and yet still he's in the
(04:53):
ductwork going go to LA.
They said it'll be fun.
They said you know, and that'sthe the what I took away from
that movie.
I liked those kind of moments.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's a good point.
I mean even in like all theOceans movies, it's pretty
intense, but you have a lot ofhumor in there and that's why
they resonate.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, it just feels like you're watching the plot,
you're caught up in it, but whenyou're laughing with them, it
just.
To me it takes it from like asix to a 10.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That makes sense.
I never thought about it thatway.
So something new, yeah.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about your author journey
as a whole and kind of how youwent from a TV producer to an
author?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
It was a dream I'd always had.
So it was finally justrealizing I had to get going on
it.
You know, I wasn't getting anyyounger.
I was asked when I was retiringand it was just like I was.
I was floored because I thoughthow old do you think I am?
And then I had to think about.
I remember thinking about it onmy way home.
I was like, wow, I am that old.
I should be thinking about that.
And the one thing I'd alwayshad in my mind was in my
(05:51):
retirement I'd always picturedmyself writing.
And here I was, I was almost 16.
I'd never written anything likenot since, you know, high
school and university.
So it was like I better getgoing on that.
So I had a break that summer,just six weeks in between shows,
and I thought like, if not now,when?
And I just started.
And then it wasn't easy fromthat.
Like it was, I started writingreally bad books and then then
(06:15):
and then it just kind of evolvedfrom there so the retirement
plan wasn't the first book youwrote no, I wrote it
was the third book.
So I wrote two, queried themand, as I said, it took me a
while to find my voice andfigure out it was the, the dark
humor and the crime and uh, andthen allow myself to like make
it funny.
So yeah, the second book Iwrote I thought was not bad,
(06:38):
like I queried it widely but hadno luck getting an agent and I
really did feel like it was asgood as some things I'd seen on
the shelf but still it didn'thit.
So then I just set it aside andI thought like well, what else
could I write?
And I know I was.
I really felt I was as good aswhat I was reading some places
but I just hadn't found it yet.
So it's just like I said aboutDie Hard, right, but that's the
(07:01):
kind of movie I like to go to.
So I thought I'm going to reada book like I'd want to see in a
movie and just with the twistsand turns, like I like the Coen
brothers and I like Tarantino, Ilike Elmer Leonard, I liked Get
Shorty.
I read Get Shorty just before Istarted reading, writing this
book, and I found I like thepacing, I like the surprises.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So I just kept that in mind as I approached this.
And of course you know, withfilm story structure I feel like
that helps too, and with yourbackground it makes it a little
bit easier to kind of take thatand adapt it into a fast paced
book.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, yeah, because the people only have so much
attention and that's what Ilearned in TV is that you have
to catch them quickly and keepthem, and it's the same in in
writing.
You know it's less.
You can't indulge yourself intothinking they're going to want
to spend time with you, becausetime's precious and people want.
They're very careful about howthey spend it.
So if you can't hold them andgrab them, like they're not just
(07:53):
going to read to, you know, tohumor you.
To get to the next chapterwhere things happen.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And with the second book that you queried, that you
liked, would you everself-publish it or revise it, or
is it just kind of on the shelffor now?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
No, it's totally gone , because it's kind of was a
blessing in disguise to not getthat book sold, because then I
probably would have written atthat level forever, and it not
being able to sell it just mademe elevate, you know, my ideas
and think a little bit tighter.
(08:27):
I think, as opposed to it waslow hanging fruit, I think
that's the way to say it.
I think that second book was areally well written, low hanging
piece of fruit, and so I'mhappy to have said goodbye to it
.
And now I've kind of know Idon't know what readers want,
but I know what I'd like to givethem.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And where did the specific inspiration for this
story come from?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Well, it's about four couples that have been friends
for 30 years and the humor is inthose friendships and also in
the marriages.
Right, so I've been married along time, but her friends we
made friends 30 years ago whenour kids were little, and in
sports, and even though our kidsare kind of they're older,
there's some they still hangaround to see each other
periodically.
(09:09):
We still see those same couples.
So there's eight of us alltogether.
We're having dinner one night.
They're all around my kitchentable and we just a lot of fun.
Like it's the kind of groupwhen you get together you look
at your watch.
I was like, oh my God, it'sfour in the morning.
Like you know, we got to gethome, you know what's going on?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
It feels like five minutes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just likeflew by.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
So with that I was at the kitchen table and I looked
around and I was looking at themand I remembered how my parents
had really great group offriends and when they started
passing away, how sad it was.
And I thought about my friendsand I thought, geez, I wonder
which of us will die first.
And that's like essentially thefirst line of the book.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And that was a very powerful first line of the book.
Whenever I read that, I waslike wait, what you liked it.
Yeah, I liked it, I liked it.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It caught me from the beginning.
Oh, that's good, it was prettymuch the same, like I never
changed it.
That was like essentially thefirst line and I held it.
The only thing I added to itwas, if you remember it's Pam
licked margarita salt from herlips.
I added the margarita salt likeon the third pass because I
just well they're drinking liketo just let you know that it's
like a fun night, what kind oftable it was and kind of what
evening it was, give you abetter sense of the atmosphere.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's really funny that in all the revisions that
stayed the same, because I'veheard that the first chapter
gets the most you knowdemolished.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, I know well, you spend so much attention on
it, right, because that's theone that will get you through
the gate.
So it was pretty much the same.
It got tweaked a little bit inediting, like the professional
editors.
When they came on board theyasked for a little bit more
information in that, but it'spretty much the same.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest
pitfalls in a thriller and howdo you try to avoid those?
Because thrillers are kind of ahard genre.
I feel like you either reallylike it or you really really
don't.
Kind of thrillers, mysterycrime, all of them.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I'm not an authority on this, I just have, like my
own feelings on things and Ithought it's um, it's kind of
revealing and teasing.
It's like you want to seedsomething but the question is,
how much is too seeded?
Or you know what I mean.
It's like at what point do youstart to annoy people and that
you hint at something?
(11:21):
How long can you drag it out?
So I tried to find a balancewith that, where that I didn't
kind of impose on people toolong that they hadn't.
But mind you, like you saidearlier before, we were talking
about how the one one thing youwonder about the whole book you
don't find out until the veryend, but still I think
everything else.
I tried to have payoffs comepretty quickly so that you did
(11:44):
wonder about stuff.
But I also think it's reallyimportant that I think every
loose end should be tied up, andI think I did that.
I really tried to, becauseotherwise you walk away from
that book and you're like waitwhat?
What happened there?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
true, I didn't walk away with any questions, so I
got everything answered for theretirement plan, and I am also
one that tends to go wait aminute.
I really want to know whathappened with that.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, and I thought that's kind of the beauty of it
when things can dovetail and youcan have like little surprises,
like that's what I love inthose movies and I see it more
in movies than I do, than I'veread in books actually but where
there's a little payoff, andthose are, to me, are worth
their weight in gold, and soI've tried to have a few of
those.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, if you love payoff and surprises, you need
to try Allie Carter's books.
Those are so good.
Oh my gosh, the Most WonderfulCrime of the Year.
The Most Wonderful Crime of theYear Okay, that one.
It has a payoff in the middle.
That threw me.
It threw me in the best way.
I'm writing that one down,thank you.
I cannot give up a book.
(12:46):
So, with the retirement plan,what was the biggest challenge
when writing the book overall?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It came pretty quickly.
To tell you the truth, I didhave to when I was almost
finished writing it when Irealized it needed, it needed a
dog.
So I had to go back and add thedog in because essentially, the
villain says I'm not a villain.
And I thought, yeah, like howdid I actually like sat here and
I thought maybe he isn't?
How do you know he is a villain, like I know he's a villain but
the people in that room don'tknow.
(13:16):
And then I thought, well, savethe cat, the save the cat
mentality.
Right, if you want to know acharacter's decently, a decent
person, you have them.
Save an animal.
So I thought, well, it has towork.
Conversely, if you want to knowthey're vile, you have them
hurt an animal.
So I thought I need a dog and Iliterally like looked beside me
and there was my dog, who'slike a middle aged, scruffy
rescue dog who has a lot ofpersonality and quirks, and I
(13:40):
just started writing him intothe book.
That's amazing, elmer was born.
Yeah, I know, I wish I couldsay it was.
He was from my imagination, theway he's missing half his teeth
and he's a really weird bodyshape.
He's long and short and scruffand he just he spits out treats
and he always flops down on theair conditioning.
But all of that was my dog.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So what famous dog would you say is most like Elmer
, even though he was kind ofadapted after your dog?
If you were going to pick one,either in personality or looks,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Gosh.
Well, it's funny People.
When I walk my dog, sometimeswe'll say he's like a Disney
character.
So there was an old dog namedTramp.
I don't even know what kind ofsitcom he was on, but he was
just one of those dogs who wasjust always around and into
trouble.
So he's kind of like hedefinitely could have been named
like a Tramp type of dog.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
What is your favorite scene that you can't wait for
readers to get to?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I kind of love like I love the friendships and I love
the chatting, you know, andjust sitting around and the
dynamic of the women and the mentoo.
But the one I think I wasreally I really liked is when
the women try and hire a hitman,you know when they're in their
minivan, and I just thought thatwas.
I loved that one and I justlove the different layers in
(14:56):
that and that we have it fromthe hitman's point of view that
he's like what is going on inhere.
In their donuts?
Yeah, that's right.
Their donuts in their water,yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Okay.
So with such a charactercentered story and such a strong
friend group, what kind of likeresearch or pre-planning did
you do kind of on each characterbefore writing them and did
their personalities kind ofsurprise you as you got going?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, I knew there had to be kind of distinctive
and because there's the fourgroups in my mind really, I
thought off the bat people don'treally have to differentiate
each of the women.
They just have to know there'sthe husbands and the wives and
they know that these groups aregoing forward and then as they
get deeper into the book they'lllearn more about each character
.
Because you know, it's just thetwo trajectories the men have
(15:45):
one plan and the women haveanother.
So I hope people didn't get toocaught up with trying to think,
well, who's Pam and who's Nancy?
You know, you just know it'sall the women and then you'll.
You'll sort stuff out with them.
But as I've tried todifferentiate them, there's
different women in every group,right, there's when you go out
to lunch with your friends.
There's always somebody whowants to figure out how much
everybody owes and there'salways somebody who's late.
(16:06):
So it's just like they're kindof superficial.
But they're those kinds ofthings that you think about.
The research I did for the menwas just in the sense that I
wasn't sure, like I know howwomen talk when they're together
, and I had an idea about men.
I have three sons and they'reall like right around 30 now.
So and brothers and all.
So I've been around a lot ofmen and I know how they talk.
(16:26):
But I would ask my husband,like if four men were in a boat
and talking about theirmarriages, like what would they
say?
Would they say this, like,would they really reveal that,
or is it kind of quieter, closer, more cryptic?
And so I got feedback on that,on how those men would handle
conversations, and I think itwas pretty realistic.
From what I've heard, peopleseem to think oh, that's pretty
(16:48):
relatable.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I thought it was realistic.
Yep, I agree.
Okay, speaking of the women, soif they were in high school,
what cliques do you think thatPam, nancy, shalisa and Marlene
would have belonged to?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, they wouldn't be the cheerleaders, they
probably had been the studentcouncil people, the people who
just like organize things andknow what they want to get done,
and they they know what kind ofparty they want to go to, so
they they're take charge, soit'll be that kind of party Like
they.
They want to make sure thatit's not like a Hawaiian theme.
So you know, whatever, whatevertheir, their preferences, I
(17:24):
think that I don't think they'dbe athletic.
They wouldn't have been likesporty gals.
So, yeah, they'd have been kindof running it, but probably not
doing a really great job atthat either.
There probably would have oneof them would have been done
doing more of the heavy liftingthan the others.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I could agree.
And then, of course, if they'restudent council, then they'd
have to plan the reunions, andPam has so much practice
planning different events in herhouse, so that that would work
really well.
Yeah yeah, that's right.
And then overall, what has beenthe most rewarding experience
throughout the entire process sofar?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
The way my friends have jumped on board as happy as
I am for me.
It just like blows my mind howhappy they are for me.
You know, just in terms of thesocial media, like the support
there, the emails, the flowersI've been receiving you know a
lot of flowers and that justreally excited, like especially
(18:14):
the friends of whom, like thefour couples, it's kind of you
know, was lot of flowers in that, just really excited like
especially the friends of whom,like the four couples, it's kind
of you know, was the loosefoundation for the book.
I had to kind of let them knowearly in the process that I was
writing a book and it was kindof you know some of our quirks
of our friendship are in thatbook.
And then like there's a pedicurescene.
That pedicure scene is almostverbatim, you know the four of
us lined up in the pedicurewondering who's going to get
(18:38):
Marlene, you know who's going tohave to do her feet, stuff like
that.
Like we have laughed so hard inthose chairs.
So I told them, let them knowabout that and they were not one
like hesitation or anything,it's just all like all, all in
on all for it.
So it's been really gratifyingthat I can make them happy too.
(18:59):
And then is there anything elsethat you would like readers to
know Well it's, it's been quitethe journey, it's been really
fulfilling on it and it's it'sworking out for me, like right
now I'm a number one bestsellerin Canadian fiction, in Canada.
Congratulations, thank you.
And like, who would havethought that?
Like I didn't?
You know, I sat here and Ididn't have a clue if I could do
(19:20):
this or if I should.
You know, I started thinkinglike it's taking a lot of time,
should I not be doing somethingelse more constructive?
It was a dream I'd had and Ithought, well, why not Like, why
not me?
And so, and if not now, when,why not me?
And then I came back to thethought that the only thing I
(19:40):
knew for sure is, if I didn'ttry, nothing would happen.
So I just kept at it.
And then, um, I changed, so Ididn't keep at it doing the same
thing.
It's like you can't just keeptrying to write the same book or
queering the same people, likeyou have to change things up and
do the research.
But by doing that, somehow orother, it hit.
And you know, and it's outthere now in the world.
And who would have thought?
It started right here, withjust me laughing by myself?
(20:03):
And now, like you know you'veread it and you seem to have
liked it, so that makes my day.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Well, congratulations .
That's a huge accomplishment tohave a book out in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Thank you.
Yeah, it just shows you rightIf you go for things that can't
come true.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
You never know what will happen.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
That's it for today.
Thanks for listening to when ILeft Off a bookish podcast.
You can visit Sue's site,follow her on social media in
the links below, and then youcan purchase her novels anywhere
books are sold.
Welcome back.
I'm Kristen Balls and you'relistening to when I Left Off a
bookish podcast, and today I'mjoined by Sue Hensenberg, the
author of the Retirement Plan.
Thank you so much for joiningme today, sue.
Thank you for inviting me.
The first question that Ialways ask everyone, because
authors just have the bestrecommendations what are you
currently reading right now?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Oh, let's see, I've always loved John Grisham, so I
just finished reading one of hisbooks.
And then one of the authorsI've just discovered, as I've
been visiting a lot ofbookstores, is SA Cosby.
I was in a bookstore in theSouth and they told me about him
.
I'm like, oh, I have to lookinto him.
So I just finished reading, Ihave to look what.
It was my Darkest Prayer.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And now I'm reading Blacktop Wasteland and then I
know he's got another new bookcoming out shortly Nice, and you
talked a little bit aboutvisiting some bookstores.
You've kind of had this wholebook tour going for the
retirement plan.
How was that?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
book tour going for the retirement plan.
How was that?
It was great.
You know, book people are kindof the best people.
You go in and then you juststart talking about books and
like that was one of the thingsis like to discover like a whole
new author I'd never heard of.
I don't know if it's just he'snot that well known in Toronto
and Canada or what, but it wasjust really good.
And then in like another state,I was reminded about Pat Conroy
, who I used to read when I wasmuch younger.
(01:27):
Like, uh, gosh Conrock was oneof his books.
I forget the others, but um,anyway, like I picked up one of
his.
I'm dying to read too, uh,south of Broad.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So it was, it was good, it's just and that was
just somebody mentioning it, youknow that and reminding me
about how much I enjoyed thosebooks and it's funny how you
could kind of like default toyour normal authors if you know
you don't think about likebranching out, and then all it
takes is someone to talk aboutsomeone else and you're like, oh
, I need to give them a try.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And what can you tell us currently about your work in
progress, if anything?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I've finished it and it's just in revisions
and it's on the same tone.
It took me a while to figureout, like exactly what my voice
is and what I, what I liked andand I hopefully what my readers
will like, you know.
So I wanted to keep them,something as a good follow-up to
the retirement plan.
So it's the same kind of thinga crime, friendship, marriage
(02:23):
and in a neighborhood type thing.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So working on that, Nice and do you know if it'll be
out next year?
It's supposed to be out 2027.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
The winter of 2027 we're aiming for.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Nice.
Yay, wow, that's quick.
He was really quick.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, Really, Because for me it seems so long it's
like you know, the longestpregnancy ever.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, but you know, your book is just coming out and
then you already have revisionson another one.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
That seems quick or a trad pub yeah, and actually I'm
glad I did it that way.
And another author I was havingdinner with and she asked me
about the second book and I said, oh, I've already handed it in
and without even realizing it.
She said that's really smart,because once, like now, I'm tied
up with retirement plan, likeso I'm so distracted from
writing that I'm looking forwardto like things quieting down
and then I can get back back toit.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Do you already have an idea for the next book once
you finish book two?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, kind of yeah, that's more like a family thing.
I find like I think thestrength of the retirement plan
is the humor, like it's a reallygood tight plot, but then I
love that there's I've layeredhumor in on it.
So I was trying to look foranother good situation scenario
that you could mine for a lot ofhumor and, like you know, I
think I found one that I'mwaiting to dive into.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And overall like how do you balance humor in your
book with kind of serioussubject matters too, Because
that seems like a hard balanceto strike.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, I think what's most important is plot.
I think if I stripped away thehumor, the book would still, I
think, be really strong just onplot.
And to me the humor is justlike buttercream frosting, you
know, it's just like it justmakes it better.
Buttercream frosting, you know,it's just like it just makes it
better.
But the book could stand aloneon plot and keep, keep people
surprised and engaged.
(04:10):
But the humor is just, it'slike the most fun for me, like
as much as I enjoyed the plotand piecing together the puzzles
, like it's like a jigsaw in alot of ways.
If I could make a sceneinteresting and make it funny,
that's what I would do.
Sometimes I would have a scenethat would just be business,
like this is what has to happenin this.
But then it's like how can Imake that funny?
(04:30):
And whenever there's friendsthere's, there should be funny,
like even in, like the, theworst moments of something
there's, like there's somethingabout that they'll make your,
your friend can make you laugh,and so that's what I tried to do
and I love those, those kind ofmovies too.
If you ever watched Die Hard,you know the old Bruce Willis
movie, like that's, that's thesame kind of thing right, it's
like strong plot, lots of action, and yet still he's in the
(04:53):
ductwork going go to LA.
They said it'll be fun.
They said you know, and that'sthe the what I took away from
that movie.
I liked those kind of moments.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
That's a good point.
I mean even in like all theOceans movies, it's pretty
intense, but you have a lot ofhumor in there and that's why
they resonate.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, it just feels like you're watching the plot,
you're caught up in it, but whenyou're laughing with them, it
just.
To me it takes it from like asix to a 10.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That makes sense.
I never thought about it thatway.
So something new, yeah.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about your author journey
as a whole and kind of how youwent from a TV producer to an
author?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
It was a dream I'd always had.
So it was finally justrealizing I had to get going on
it.
You know, I wasn't getting anyyounger.
I was asked when I was retiringand it was just like I was.
I was floored because I thoughthow old do you think I am?
And then I had to think about.
I remember thinking about it onmy way home.
I was like, wow, I am that old.
I should be thinking about that.
And the one thing I'd alwayshad in my mind was in my
(05:51):
retirement I'd always picturedmyself writing.
And here I was, I was almost 16.
I'd never written anything likenot since, you know, high
school and university.
So it was like I better getgoing on that.
So I had a break that summer,just six weeks in between shows,
and I thought like, if not now,when?
And I just started.
And then it wasn't easy fromthat.
Like it was, I started writingreally bad books and then then
(06:15):
and then it just kind of evolvedfrom there so the retirement
plan wasn't the first book youwrote no, I wrote it
was the third book.
So I wrote two, queried themand, as I said, it took me a
while to find my voice andfigure out it was the, the dark
humor and the crime and uh, andthen allow myself to like make
it funny.
So yeah, the second book Iwrote I thought was not bad,
(06:38):
like I queried it widely but hadno luck getting an agent and I
really did feel like it was asgood as some things I'd seen on
the shelf but still it didn'thit.
So then I just set it aside andI thought like well, what else
could I write?
And I know I was.
I really felt I was as good aswhat I was reading some places
but I just hadn't found it yet.
So it's just like I said aboutDie Hard, right, but that's the
(07:01):
kind of movie I like to go to.
So I thought I'm going to reada book like I'd want to see in a
movie and just with the twistsand turns, like I like the Coen
brothers and I like Tarantino, Ilike Elmer Leonard, I liked Get
Shorty.
I read Get Shorty just before Istarted reading, writing this
book, and I found I like thepacing, I like the surprises.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So I just kept that in mind as I approached this.
And of course you know, withfilm story structure I feel like
that helps too, and with yourbackground it makes it a little
bit easier to kind of take thatand adapt it into a fast paced
book.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, yeah, because the people only have so much
attention and that's what Ilearned in TV is that you have
to catch them quickly and keepthem, and it's the same in in
writing.
You know it's less.
You can't indulge yourself intothinking they're going to want
to spend time with you, becausetime's precious and people want.
They're very careful about howthey spend it.
So if you can't hold them andgrab them, like they're not just
(07:53):
going to read to, you know, tohumor you.
To get to the next chapterwhere things happen.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And with the second book that you queried, that you
liked, would you everself-publish it or revise it, or
is it just kind of on the shelffor now?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
No, it's totally gone , because it's kind of was a
blessing in disguise to not getthat book sold, because then I
probably would have written atthat level forever, and it not
being able to sell it just mademe elevate, you know, my ideas
and think a little bit tighter.
(08:27):
I think, as opposed to it waslow hanging fruit, I think
that's the way to say it.
I think that second book was areally well written, low hanging
piece of fruit, and so I'mhappy to have said goodbye to it
.
And now I've kind of know Idon't know what readers want,
but I know what I'd like to givethem.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And where did the specific inspiration for this
story come from?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Well, it's about four couples that have been friends
for 30 years and the humor is inthose friendships and also in
the marriages.
Right, so I've been married along time, but her friends we
made friends 30 years ago whenour kids were little, and in
sports, and even though our kidsare kind of they're older,
there's some they still hangaround to see each other
periodically.
(09:09):
We still see those same couples.
So there's eight of us alltogether.
We're having dinner one night.
They're all around my kitchentable and we just a lot of fun.
Like it's the kind of groupwhen you get together you look
at your watch.
I was like, oh my God, it'sfour in the morning.
Like you know, we got to gethome, you know what's going on?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
It feels like five minutes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just likeflew by.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
So with that I was at the kitchen table and I looked
around and I was looking at themand I remembered how my parents
had really great group offriends and when they started
passing away, how sad it was.
And I thought about my friendsand I thought, geez, I wonder
which of us will die first.
And that's like essentially thefirst line of the book.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And that was a very powerful first line of the book.
Whenever I read that, I waslike wait, what you liked it.
Yeah, I liked it, I liked it.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It caught me from the beginning.
Oh, that's good, it was prettymuch the same, like I never
changed it.
That was like essentially thefirst line and I held it.
The only thing I added to itwas, if you remember it's Pam
licked margarita salt from herlips.
I added the margarita salt likeon the third pass because I
just well they're drinking liketo just let you know that it's
like a fun night, what kind oftable it was and kind of what
evening it was, give you abetter sense of the atmosphere.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's really funny that in all the revisions that
stayed the same, because I'veheard that the first chapter
gets the most you knowdemolished.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, I know well, you spend so much attention on
it, right, because that's theone that will get you through
the gate.
So it was pretty much the same.
It got tweaked a little bit inediting, like the professional
editors.
When they came on board theyasked for a little bit more
information in that, but it'spretty much the same.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest
pitfalls in a thriller and howdo you try to avoid those?
Because thrillers are kind of ahard genre.
I feel like you either reallylike it or you really really
don't.
Kind of thrillers, mysterycrime, all of them.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I'm not an authority on this, I just have, like my
own feelings on things and Ithought it's um, it's kind of
revealing and teasing.
It's like you want to seedsomething but the question is,
how much is too seeded?
Or you know what I mean.
It's like at what point do youstart to annoy people and that
you hint at something?
(11:21):
How long can you drag it out?
So I tried to find a balancewith that, where that I didn't
kind of impose on people toolong that they hadn't.
But mind you, like you saidearlier before, we were talking
about how the one one thing youwonder about the whole book you
don't find out until the veryend, but still I think
everything else.
I tried to have payoffs comepretty quickly so that you did
(11:44):
wonder about stuff.
But I also think it's reallyimportant that I think every
loose end should be tied up, andI think I did that.
I really tried to, becauseotherwise you walk away from
that book and you're like waitwhat?
What happened there?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
true, I didn't walk away with any questions, so I
got everything answered for theretirement plan, and I am also
one that tends to go wait aminute.
I really want to know whathappened with that.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, and I thought that's kind of the beauty of it
when things can dovetail and youcan have like little surprises,
like that's what I love inthose movies and I see it more
in movies than I do, than I'veread in books actually but where
there's a little payoff, andthose are, to me, are worth
their weight in gold, and soI've tried to have a few of
those.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, if you love payoff and surprises, you need
to try Allie Carter's books.
Those are so good.
Oh my gosh, the Most WonderfulCrime of the Year.
The Most Wonderful Crime of theYear Okay, that one.
It has a payoff in the middle.
That threw me.
It threw me in the best way.
I'm writing that one down,thank you.
I cannot give up a book.
(12:46):
So, with the retirement plan,what was the biggest challenge
when writing the book overall?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It came pretty quickly.
To tell you the truth, I didhave to when I was almost
finished writing it when Irealized it needed, it needed a
dog.
So I had to go back and add thedog in because essentially, the
villain says I'm not a villain.
And I thought, yeah, like howdid I actually like sat here and
I thought maybe he isn't?
How do you know he is a villain, like I know he's a villain but
the people in that room don'tknow.
(13:16):
And then I thought, well, savethe cat, the save the cat
mentality.
Right, if you want to know acharacter's decently, a decent
person, you have them.
Save an animal.
So I thought, well, it has towork.
Conversely, if you want to knowthey're vile, you have them
hurt an animal.
So I thought I need a dog and Iliterally like looked beside me
and there was my dog, who'slike a middle aged, scruffy
rescue dog who has a lot ofpersonality and quirks, and I
(13:40):
just started writing him intothe book.
That's amazing, elmer was born.
Yeah, I know, I wish I couldsay it was.
He was from my imagination, theway he's missing half his teeth
and he's a really weird bodyshape.
He's long and short and scruffand he just he spits out treats
and he always flops down on theair conditioning.
But all of that was my dog.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So what famous dog would you say is most like Elmer
, even though he was kind ofadapted after your dog?
If you were going to pick one,either in personality or looks,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Gosh.
Well, it's funny People.
When I walk my dog, sometimeswe'll say he's like a Disney
character.
So there was an old dog namedTramp.
I don't even know what kind ofsitcom he was on, but he was
just one of those dogs who wasjust always around and into
trouble.
So he's kind of like hedefinitely could have been named
like a Tramp type of dog.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
What is your favorite scene that you can't wait for
readers to get to?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I kind of love like I love the friendships and I love
the chatting, you know, andjust sitting around and the
dynamic of the women and the mentoo.
But the one I think I wasreally I really liked is when
the women try and hire a hitman,you know when they're in their
minivan, and I just thought thatwas.
I loved that one and I justlove the different layers in
(14:56):
that and that we have it fromthe hitman's point of view that
he's like what is going on inhere.
In their donuts?
Yeah, that's right.
Their donuts in their water,yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Okay.
So with such a charactercentered story and such a strong
friend group, what kind of likeresearch or pre-planning did
you do kind of on each characterbefore writing them and did
their personalities kind ofsurprise you as you got going?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, I knew there had to be kind of distinctive
and because there's the fourgroups in my mind really, I
thought off the bat people don'treally have to differentiate
each of the women.
They just have to know there'sthe husbands and the wives and
they know that these groups aregoing forward and then as they
get deeper into the book they'lllearn more about each character
.
Because you know, it's just thetwo trajectories the men have
(15:45):
one plan and the women haveanother.
So I hope people didn't get toocaught up with trying to think,
well, who's Pam and who's Nancy?
You know, you just know it'sall the women and then you'll.
You'll sort stuff out with them.
But as I've tried todifferentiate them, there's
different women in every group,right, there's when you go out
to lunch with your friends.
There's always somebody whowants to figure out how much
everybody owes and there'salways somebody who's late.
(16:06):
So it's just like they're kindof superficial.
But they're those kinds ofthings that you think about.
The research I did for the menwas just in the sense that I
wasn't sure, like I know howwomen talk when they're together
, and I had an idea about men.
I have three sons and they'reall like right around 30 now.
So and brothers and all.
So I've been around a lot ofmen and I know how they talk.
(16:26):
But I would ask my husband,like if four men were in a boat
and talking about theirmarriages, like what would they
say?
Would they say this, like,would they really reveal that,
or is it kind of quieter, closer, more cryptic?
And so I got feedback on that,on how those men would handle
conversations, and I think itwas pretty realistic.
From what I've heard, peopleseem to think oh, that's pretty
(16:48):
relatable.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I thought it was realistic.
Yep, I agree.
Okay, speaking of the women, soif they were in high school,
what cliques do you think thatPam, nancy, shalisa and Marlene
would have belonged to?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, they wouldn't be the cheerleaders, they
probably had been the studentcouncil people, the people who
just like organize things andknow what they want to get done,
and they they know what kind ofparty they want to go to, so
they they're take charge, soit'll be that kind of party Like
they.
They want to make sure thatit's not like a Hawaiian theme.
So you know, whatever, whatevertheir, their preferences, I
(17:24):
think that I don't think they'dbe athletic.
They wouldn't have been likesporty gals.
So, yeah, they'd have been kindof running it, but probably not
doing a really great job atthat either.
There probably would have oneof them would have been done
doing more of the heavy liftingthan the others.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I could agree.
And then, of course, if they'restudent council, then they'd
have to plan the reunions, andPam has so much practice
planning different events in herhouse, so that that would work
really well.
Yeah yeah, that's right.
And then overall, what has beenthe most rewarding experience
throughout the entire process sofar?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
The way my friends have jumped on board as happy as
I am for me.
It just like blows my mind howhappy they are for me.
You know, just in terms of thesocial media, like the support
there, the emails, the flowersI've been receiving you know a
lot of flowers and that justreally excited, like especially
(18:14):
the friends of whom, like thefour couples, it's kind of you
know, was lot of flowers in that, just really excited like
especially the friends of whom,like the four couples, it's kind
of you know, was the loosefoundation for the book.
I had to kind of let them knowearly in the process that I was
writing a book and it was kindof you know some of our quirks
of our friendship are in thatbook.
And then like there's a pedicurescene.
That pedicure scene is almostverbatim, you know the four of
us lined up in the pedicurewondering who's going to get
(18:38):
Marlene, you know who's going tohave to do her feet, stuff like
that.
Like we have laughed so hard inthose chairs.
So I told them, let them knowabout that and they were not one
like hesitation or anything,it's just all like all, all in
on all for it.
So it's been really gratifyingthat I can make them happy too.
(18:59):
And then is there anything elsethat you would like readers to
know Well it's, it's been quitethe journey, it's been really
fulfilling on it and it's it'sworking out for me, like right
now I'm a number one bestsellerin Canadian fiction, in Canada.
Congratulations, thank you.
And like, who would havethought that?
Like I didn't?
You know, I sat here and Ididn't have a clue if I could do
(19:20):
this or if I should.
You know, I started thinkinglike it's taking a lot of time,
should I not be doing somethingelse more constructive?
It was a dream I'd had and Ithought, well, why not Like, why
not me?
And so, and if not now, when,why not me?
And then I came back to thethought that the only thing I
(19:40):
knew for sure is, if I didn'ttry, nothing would happen.
So I just kept at it.
And then, um, I changed, so Ididn't keep at it doing the same
thing.
It's like you can't just keeptrying to write the same book or
queering the same people, likeyou have to change things up and
do the research.
But by doing that, somehow orother, it hit.
And you know, and it's outthere now in the world.
And who would have thought?
It started right here, withjust me laughing by myself?
(20:03):
And now, like you know you'veread it and you seem to have
liked it, so that makes my day.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Well, congratulations .
That's a huge accomplishment tohave a book out in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Thank you.
Yeah, it just shows you rightIf you go for things that can't
come true.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
You never know what will happen.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
That's it for today.
Thanks for listening to when ILeft Off a bookish podcast.
You can visit Sue's site,follow her on social media in
the links below, and then youcan purchase her novels anywhere
books are sold.
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