August 16, 2025 • 32 mins
Adolescence is often described as turbulent—but in the digital age, the waves are higher and the currents stronger.
In this week’s Where Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino speaks with bestselling author, mental health advocate, journalist and mother of five, Rachel Kelly (The Gift of Teenagers: Connect More, Worry Less) about the forces shaping today’s teens: hormonal changes, relentless screen time, and the pressures of a hyper-connected world.
The discussion examines the tightrope parents walk—encouraging independence while enforcing discipline—and doesn’t shy away from pressing issues like bullying, consent, and online relationships.
Kelly offers a candid, hopeful message: these years can be a crucible for growth, not just for teenagers, but for the parents raising them.Takeaways:
Key Takeaways:
- Understand how hormonal changes shape your teen’s emotions and behavior.
- Communicate calmly while respecting your teen’s growing independence.
- Stay informed about your teen’s online life to address risks like cyberbullying.
- Teach consent and healthy relationships to build emotional and physical awareness.
- Focus on strengths to strengthen your parent–teen bond during challenging times.
- Remember: the teenage brain is still developing—lead with empathy and patience.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- King's College London
This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.
You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign. Welcome to the WhereParents Talk podcast. We help grow
better parents throughscience, evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Leanne Castellino.
Welcome to Where Parents Talk.My name is Lianne Castelino. Our
guest today is a mental healthwriter, a keynote speaker and a journalist.
Rachel Kelly is also a bestselling author of five books. Her
latest book is called the Giftof Teenagers. Connect More, worry
(00:44):
Less. Rachel is a mother offive and she joins us today from
London, England. Thank you somuch for taking the time.
My absolute pleasure. Thankyou for having me.
Rachel, you have raised fivechildren. You've worked for over
a decade in schools anduniversities with kids, and you've
written extensively on mentalhealth. Can you take us through how
(01:06):
all that came together in theGift of Teenagers?
Sure. So my first focus was onadult mental health. When I started
in this field, I wrote a bookabout my own experience of severe
depression, including somepostnatal depression. And because
of that, I was so lucky, Istarted collaborating with mental
health charities andparticularly King's College London,
(01:28):
where I became an associate intheir psychiatry department. And
at that stage I was lookingmore at adults. But about five years
ago, a little bit longer, Ibegan to get more and more concerned
emails from parents sayingthey were worried about their children,
especially their teenagers.And I started to be more and more
in touch with teenagersthemselves going into schools, as
(01:51):
you say. And I began to think,there's something going, going on
here. Parents are finding lifevery hard. Teenagers are finding
really life very hard. I thinkI'm going to pivot and focus more
on young people and teenagers.And that's when I started researching
the book, talking toadolescent psychiatrists, psychologists,
talking to young people,teachers, parents, and obviously
(02:14):
my own experience, and weavedit all together. And then the result
was the book came out in May.Yeah, the Gift of Teenagers. Connect
More, Worry less.
So doing that research andthinking about this topic as you
did, your lived experience, aswell, as a mother of five kids, and
some of them being teenagersthemselves at this time, what sort
(02:36):
of stood out for you? Whatgave you pause?
I think that I was just sostruck by how worried people were
and how anxious people were,especially parents. And it felt to
me as if this was not the bestplace to raise calmer and more resilient
teenagers. Because if we'reworried ourselves, that gets reflected
(02:58):
back in our relationship withour teenagers. And quite early in
my research I did an interviewwith an adolescent psychiatrist.
I was very, very struck bywhat she said. She worked with sort
of stick models like mom, dad,and teenager who's finding life difficult.
And she was saying that in thetherapy room, if you're working with
a troubled teenager and thestick figures of the mom and dad,
(03:20):
you collapse. The teenagerjust cannot cope. They are overwhelmed
themselves with some verystrong feelings and a lot going on
for them, a lot happening tothe teenage brain. And they need
us parents to be calm andsteady. And so that was really what
I was thinking, was that couldwe find ways as parents just to sort
of dial the down, dial the d,can't get the right cliche, dial
(03:43):
the worry, dial down a bit,stay a little bit calmer, and then
interact with our teenagersfrom this calmer, more settled place.
And I myself had been a veryanxious mom, so I was kind of working
on how could I be a littlecalmer? And then I noticed that this
was a much better way to getalong with my teenagers.
(04:03):
It's interesting because alevel of anxiousness or anxiety,
a little bit of worry is sortof par for the course if you're a
parent. But the book is calledthe Gift of Teenagers, which I have
to admit caught my eye,Wondered, you know, where. Where
is this going? Where's thistitle? What does this title mean?
Why did you choose to frame itas a gift?
(04:27):
Well, it was a bit of a biglearning curve for me, but I think,
you know, the cliche is thatthis is a very difficult time. And
I. And I understand that. Andto your point, I'm not saying we're
not going to never worrybecause there will always be times.
But it seemed to me, and maybethis reflected my own experience
with difficult mental healthover the years, is that teenagers
(04:47):
are a gift because we go todeep and dark places as parents of
adolescents. And this is howwe learn and grow. There are other
ways to grow and learn. Youknow, lots of ways to find that psychological
growth. But sure as hell,raising teenagers is a very demanding
time for a lot of adults. Butwe can turn this around by going
(05:09):
deeper and looking into ourown strong responses, whether we're
angry or whether we're sad. Ifwe feel rejection, we can learn a
lot. And actually, we grow andlearn as people when times are tough.
So for me, that's one bigreason that teenagers are a gift,
because they force this deeppsychological work on us. And I'd
(05:29):
say the second argument whyteenagers are a gift is that this
is a period when we can changeour relationship with young people
and end up with a very closeadult to adult relationship. And
this is a gift. We, we areraising an emerging adult and we
have a chance to have a veryunique relationship with that growing
(05:53):
person. And we're changing ourrelationship. They don't need us
in the same way. We don't haveto wipe their bottom or drive them
to college or. But we canshift that relationship from a kind
of needs based, transactional,almost relationship to an adult relationship
based on love and respect andconnection and less worry. And so
(06:14):
that's the second reason Icall the book the Gift of Teenagers.
Because a of the book is howdo we build this relationship and
what could that relationshiplook like? And for me, it's such
an exciting relationship and Ijust wanted to turn the whole dial
around. You know, we can lookat this in a very different way.
It seems to me, Rachel, asyou're talking, that so much of it
(06:35):
is about mindset, right? Theparents mindset 100%.
Yeah.
So what can you say in termsof, you know, tips you can offer
a parent about how to shiftthat perspective, sort of tweak that
mindset to invite moreconnection and, you know, keep the
worry at bay?
(06:56):
Okay, so this is almost thesimplest thing, and it's on. When
I started doing it, itimmediately shifted the energy and
the connection in therelationship. So when you're engaging
with your teenager, take apause, try and get yourself nice
and calm, maybe do a couple ofbreathing exercises, a little bit
of mindfulness, and thenbefore you even speak to them, bring
(07:17):
to mind all their greatqualities, all their gifts, and all
their strengths. So one of thedynamics I think it's really helpful
to step away from is thatthey're the victim and that we're
sorting them out and only wecan fix them. As opposed to they
are strong, growing,independent human beings. And if
you bring to mind theirstrengths. So before you say, please,
(07:38):
can you pick up thatfloordrobe or I need you to help
with dinner is just to turnaround and think of all the times
they've already helped, allthe times they did pick up their
clothes on the floor. And it'svery subtle because it's a lot to
do with energy. And it's noteven anything you say. It's just
the kind of, almost the kindof kinetic psychic energy that you
(07:58):
come to that relationship. Andthere are little practical things
you can do, like lower yourvoice. You know, teenagers are very
alive to threat. Their threatsystem is more developed than ours.
And so if we shout or raiseour voice, they're immediately going
to go into fear, fight andflight. So little things like lower
your voice, you know, don'tshout at them, things like that.
(08:21):
And then I'd say the thirdreally obvious one is just. And it
is allied to thinking of thevirtues of them. But also, and this
is where there was some lovelyresearch, and I love finding their
research. It's called thePygmalion effect, sometimes called
the Rosenthal effect, which isto do with expectations. And if we
have high expectations ofthem, high expectations of trust
(08:43):
and good behavior, they'remuch more likely to behave in a decent
way. And that is so relevantto more dangerous situations or taking
drugs or drinking or all thethings we're scared of. If we have
high expectations, we're morelikely to, to have a good and sort
of nourishing and connected relationship.
(09:06):
When you say highexpectations, some people might think,
well, you know what, that's areally fine line because you don't
want to exceed yourexpectations of them so that it is
something that they can'tattain. What can you say about how
to channel and manage theexpectations that you have as a parent
of that child?
(09:26):
It's such a good point. Andit's almost like it sounds sort of
stressful. Almost likeanything with the word high in it,
it's immediately stressful.Like high exam results, high expectations.
What I would say is if youally high expectations with reframing
mistakes, which is, I like tosay that there aren't any such thing
as a mistake. There are, youknow, every, every stumbling block
(09:49):
can be a stepping stone.Everything that supposedly doesn't
work out can be a way that. Tothink again and to reframe things.
I give you an example. Let'ssay you have a boundary that you
have a rule that they're homeat 11 and they overstepped the mark
and they're home at 12, on onelevel, they haven't lived up to your
high expectations. Theyhaven't followed through. But that
(10:12):
can be a chance to sit downwith them and maybe talk about what's
happened and often use the Iword. So, like, I find it very hard
because I have to go to workthe next day. And if you don't come
home when you're going to sayyou're going to come home, then I'm
going to be exhausted.Exhausted for work and that, those
sorts of conversations. So Ithink if you ally high expectations
(10:32):
with reframing the idea thatanything is a mistake, you can come
to a kind of a happy medium,as you say.
One of the things that yourbook talks about and you've been
very candid about is your ownmental health struggles. And I'm
curious as to how thatexperience helped and shaped your
(10:55):
parenting approach andespecially parenting teenagers.
I think the really biggestlearning that I probably had to do
with my mental health was thatwhen I was growing up. And I don't
blame my parents, it's not inthe spirit of judgment, but I was
particularly good at doingwhat other people wanted. I was really
(11:16):
good at jump how high otherpeople's expectations are of what
I should study, what I shoulddo, what kind of friends I should
have. I was very alive tobeing a sort of people pleaser. And
I think that the way this hasinformed my parents is my parenting,
is that what I would most wishfor my teenagers and for your teenagers
(11:38):
is to let them line up withwhat is truly right for them as opposed
to what you want. And I seethis all the time and I have huge
compassion for parents becauseI don't think any parent doesn't
get up in the morning and trytheir best. But there can be this
merging of what you want foryourself and what, what they want.
And I give you an example,like, so we have, you know, elite
(12:02):
universities in Oxford andCambridge here in the uk and you
might hear a parent saying,hey, I got into Oxford. And you know,
they have totally merged theiridentity and their wish fulfillment
with their teenager. Now look,it might be right for their teenager
to get into Oxford, but youknow what, maybe that teenager wanted
to be a plumber and theydidn't have that chance. And when
(12:25):
I look back at my own mentalhealth breakdowns, I had two very
serious depressive episodes inmy 30s and I ended up in hospital.
I think what a lot of therapyand a lot of work and research has
done has been to try and helpme line up with what is right for
me and to do it withcompassion and boundaries. But just
to be able to do things likesay no. I mean one of the reasons
(12:49):
I broke down is I couldn't sayno. You know, I was working, I was
being a mom, I was being awife, I was being a hostess, I was
being a friend. And I justdidn't look after myself. So it's
allied to a sense of self careand looking after yourself. But it's,
I think that's what I most tryto do with my teenagers. And what
(13:10):
I would say is that the fivehave very different outcomes. And
in that I feel good. They'renot all mini me's, they're following
their own dreams, more orless. There's a few bumps on the
way. I wouldn't like to sayit's all perfect, but remember, stumbling
blocks are stepping stones. Sowe're not trying to be perfect now.
One of the things that you getinto in the Gift of Teenagers is
(13:31):
the importance of parentsreally understanding how the teenage
brain works. In terms of thebrain science around this, what surprised
you most in the research thatyou, that you delved into?
I think really a. How ignorantwe are. We only really started looking
at the teenage brain around 15years ago. We used to think that
(13:55):
child development was justvery big sort of naught till two,
when we knew the brain wasdoing crazy things and all these
new neural pathways. And thenwe figured out that the adolescent
brain was also going through acrazy amount of change for quite
a long time through to around25. So my book is called the Gift
of Teenagers. But you know,actually a lot of, a lot of what
(14:16):
I talk about can extendthrough into the 20s. I mean, I do
make that point in theintroduction. It's, it's, it is a
broad, a broad sweep. So, sothat brain development keeps happening
right through till 25. I thinkthe other huge thing that I learned
was that everything is verynuanced. I give you an example. So
people talk about peerpressure. So you know about this
(14:37):
idea that teenagers are veryinfluenced by peer pressure. Well,
they are, but actually it's alittle more subtle than that. They
do mind what their peersthink, but only certain peers in
certain situations. So theycan actually be quite sensible. Where
things start to go wrong is ifthey're with the really cool guys,
(14:59):
then the peer pressure becomesway more intense. And there's a very
narrow understanding in theteenage brain, which is fascinating,
and I didn't realize is thatteenagers are really conservative.
They want the girls to bepretty and, you know, have blonde
hair and be a certain kind ofcurvaceous shape. And they want the
guys to be tall and strong andgood at sport. It's really amazingly
(15:20):
conventional. I mean, it hasbroken down a little bit and the
peer pressure really kicks inhard if a teenager feels they're
in this kind of cool group. Sothat's very interesting because that
makes a difference for us asparents to keep a little eye on who
are children are hanging outwith and who their friends are. And
what I would say is if you'rea parent and you're worried about
(15:42):
peer pressure and what'shappening to the teenage brain and
that sensitivity, try and getyour Teenagers to have one sensible
friend. So they're going to aparty, set up a buddy system, somebody
you trust, and then that willdial down the peer pressure. So I
think bits of research arejust a little bit more subtle sometimes
than this sort of slightcliche about, you know, they'll do
(16:04):
whatever their peers are goingto do. No, they're a little, little
thoughtful about how theyrespond to things.
In that same vein, your bookhas been described as being full
of practical strategies forparents. Are there any other key
strategies that you thinkthat, you know, the average parent
of a teen should really know?
Well, I like to give theexample of sort of old me and newer
(16:27):
me after sort of 20 years onthe teenage front line or 15 years
on the teenage front line. SoI think when I was first a teenage
mum, I was, as I say, quite apeople pleaser. And it got to the
stage that one child would eatthis and one child would want that.
And I would make a big effortat dinner and all the different dishes
and then I would shoutupstairs and say, dinner, dinner.
(16:52):
You know, not doing this. Thesort of the gentle voice that I was
telling you about before. Andthen of course, well, not of course,
but they wouldn't necessarilycome down, so I would scream harder
and say, come on down. Youknow, it's dinner, you got to eat,
you got to eat. If you don'teat, you're not going to, you know,
how can you concentrate atschool, etc, etc. And I would be
tremendously trying to forcethis sort of outcome. And one of
(17:13):
the things I think that madethat I learned was that you can really
wish for your teenagers tocome sit around the table with you.
You can't force the outcome.And the less you let go, the more
you let go of trying to forcethem to do stuff, the more likely
they are to come. So I changedhow I was as a teenage mom at dinners.
So I used to just make what Iwanted to eat and then I would get
(17:38):
myself a drink and a nicemagazine. I'm a journalist, I love
magazines. And I'd get myplate ready, everything would be
ready. I would call up onceand I'd say, it's dinner. And then
I would just go settle andstart to eat. And it took a while
before they realized that Iwas doing things differently. And
(17:58):
then they started to come fordinner on time and eat what was on
the table and mums would sayto me, well, you know what, if you
don't force them to havedinner, they're going to be hungry.
If you ever met a teenager whoisn't hungry? They are going to come
down eventually. And it's alittle like the war on drugs in America.
You say no to drugs, you'redrawn to drugs. You try and force
(18:21):
them to do things. And anotherbig thing happening in the teenage
brain is this desire forautonomy. They want to be independent.
There's something calledindividualization, which is. A psychologist
called Erik Erickson came upwith it. And it's about this sort
of separation and they'rebecoming individuals and the way
to do it is to go with it. Andthis is a good thing. Remember, it's
(18:42):
a gift. We want them to growup. We want to have an adult to adult
relationship. Would you tellyour friend, would you scream up
the stairs to your friend tocome for dinner? So I think those
are very sort of practicalways of changing. And a lot of them
are to do with you figuringout your own emotional regulation
and your own ways of thinkingand just getting yourself to this
(19:05):
nice, calm place, you know,yes, you could have that really strong
desire. Can't force theoutcome, but honor it. Don't try
and shut it down as a feeling.We can't shut down feelings. The
more we resist, they persist.Honor it, allow it, be with it, but
don't try and force it. Andit's a much less exhausting way to
be.
(19:25):
In that same vein you talkabout as well, you know, parents
engaging with adolescentsbetter. What does that look like
in terms of, you know, how canthose engage that, that engagement
be more successful at a timewhen that teen brain is developing
and there's all kinds ofphysical, emotional, social things
(19:47):
happening and you're justtrying to communicate as a parent,
but at the same time beingmindful of engaging them.
So two things. The first is asort of more broad philosophical
point. I think you're going tohave to accept that you're not always
going to engage them andthat's okay. You know, we, we feel
under such pressure. And, youknow, it's funny because I call the
(20:10):
book Connect More, Worry Less.Sometimes that connection might not
be a conversation. You couldeven just feel inside, you know,
any parent listening. If youclose your eyes and you think how
much you love your teenagers,I know they can drive you mad, but
that connection is there. Sosometimes they're not going to want
to talk to you and that isokay. And you need to attend to the
(20:31):
bit of you that might feelrejected. Maybe you're going to have
to call a friend or maybeyou're going to go for a swim. Or
do something else thataddresses your emotional need for
connection. So that's just aphilosophical point, I'd say as a
practical point. A little bitof research I really like is the
golden nine o' clock hour. Andthis is nice. So this is the idea
(20:53):
that we want to appeal to ourteenagers autonomy. 9 o' clock is
a good time. They're on adifferent circadian rhythm. They
get up later, they go to bedlater. You're probably pretty tired
by 9 o'. Clock. Maybe you'vebeen at work, you want to go to bed.
In a way, it's a, it's, itmight sound like a not a good time
to talk, but it's almost likeyour defenses are down. You're, you're
less trying to be the powerfulmom, like forcing or dad, like forcing
(21:16):
them to do their homework orthis or that. You're, you're kind
of less bossy. You might evenbe getting ready for bed. It's a
great time for them to comein. They get to choose as they come
in, they get to choose howlong they talk to you for. They get
to choose, you know, what theywant to talk about. And it's very
interesting. It's almost likeimagine them like a deer that sort
of would bounce away in theflorist. But if you're just available
(21:39):
at a time that suits them, theworst possible time, obviously to
try and get that connection isfirst thing in the morning. You're
tired, they're tired, you'retrying to get them to school, you're
going to. The connection's notgoing to be so good. So just being
artful about when you try andconnect as well as some of the things
we talked about earlier, likethat gentle voice and just being
(21:59):
in a good, good space yourself.
Absolutely. Now we mentionedthat you have five children ranging
in age from 21 to 30. Soyou've been through those teen years
having done the research,having listened to all of that information
and all of those perspectives.What else would you have done differently,
(22:20):
if anything, when you wereraising those kids?
Oh, I mean, so many things. SoI had a very long experience. So
my older children who are intheir, you know, my eldest son is
30, as you say, they were predigital, largely pre Digital. So
my 28 year old and my 30 yearold, my 25 year old daughter is like,
(22:41):
was like a pivot, the digitalthing was starting. I was deep into
the digital world with theyounger two and I think that one
of the things I had to learnwas what that means bringing up children
in the digital age and whatthat means for them and trying to
navigate that and understandwhat that means and how it changes
(23:03):
your relationship. So I thinkprobably I was a little asleep at
the wheel because I'd had withthe older ones, I hadn't had to engage
with that, and I made quite abit. Few mistakes understanding the
digital thing. I understoodphones fairly early on, and I didn't
give the younger onessmartphones. I gave them brick phones.
(23:24):
And my husband was prettysharp on it, too. We haven't really
mentioned husbands, butthey're a key part of the story if
you're lucky to have one or apartner or somebody who can help.
But yes, I was good on phones,but I was bad on computers. I didn't
understand somehow computershad this aura of respectability.
You know, we work oncomputers. They were doing homework
(23:46):
on computers. We had an officewhere part end of the kitchen where
the computers were. And Ithought, well, it's in the kitchen.
We can see what's going on.Computers are okay, but actually
they're not. So I did have alot to learn and that changing story.
So I'd say that there's aparticular cohort of children, teenagers
(24:08):
now, sort of born in 2003,2004, where my younger ones were
born. And they. They've hadquite a particular experience. They've
been through Covid. They'recompletely digital natives. And there
are some particular issuesaround them which I had to really
get up to speed on.
So what then did you learn interms of. And what can you offer
in terms of how parents cannavigate what really amounts to the
(24:31):
minefield of social mediathese days, which, you know, you
talk about the pandemic, it'sjust only exacerbated in terms of
its impact on people's.
Lives in that age group inparticular, 100%. I mean, I think
I would. I would make a broadphilosophical point before a sort
of practical point. I think wehave to think what is. What is underlying
(24:52):
the phone thing? Why. Why areteenagers so drawn to their phones?
Why are we so drawn to ourphones? And I would say that underneath
it all is a longing forconnection. You know, what do we
want? You know, I'm chattingto you now. I want to connect with
you. I mean, I'm talking toyour audience. I want to connect
with them. And our teenagersare no different. And I think that
(25:12):
is the essential lure of thedigital world is this longing for
connection. And it's not allbad because, you know, say you are
in some lonely village in themiddle of Nowhere. You're never going
to find maybe another teenagerwho has perhaps the same outlook
on some issue around identityor sexuality. And that can be a wonderful
(25:33):
way to find that connectiononline. So it's not all bad. But
what I would say is that weneed to stay super connected as parents
for as long as we possiblycan, so that when our teenagers go
online and they have thechance to connect with whoever they
want online, and we're nevergoing to be able to control that.
They start from, they bringthemselves to their phone and if
(25:56):
we keep that good connection,which the whole book is about, really
how you're going to do that,and we've already shared some ideas,
you got a better chance thenof not losing them to this sort of
Internet rabbit hole, becauseyou hold on tight to that connection.
And I'd say in practicalterms, I think the best thing you
(26:17):
can do is everything has to bedone in a joint way, has to be collaborative.
If you tell your teenager, youknow, you can't do this, you can't
go on that, they're going tofind a way. I have never. If you.
If I talk to 30 teenagers in aschool and I ask them, have you got
round any restrictions? 100%,they get round, they. They buy burner
(26:38):
phones, they get their ownvpn, they will find a way to go online
if they want. You cannot forcethem not to. The only way to do it
is to build on highexpectations, trust, communication
and a straightforwardconversation about the kind of stuff
that they're going to find.And being very open is like, if you
spend six hours on TikTok, howdoes that make you feel? And probably
(27:02):
they're going to say, you knowwhat? I feel terrible. So we have
to keep that kind of opencommunication and a very straightforward,
like, you know, open questionslike, how is it going to make you
feel? You know, what do youfeel about it? And one final thing
I'd say about phones thatseems to work so well with teenagers
is they have a very strongsense of social justice. They are
(27:26):
at the forefront of a lot ofimpressive movements. You know, Black
Lives Matter, a lot oftolerance and acceptance of difference.
And if you talk to them aboutsome of the exploitation that is
happening in the pornographyindustry, if you talk to them about
some of the exploitation thatis happening among tech firms, about
how they're using their data,they do not like it. And if you go
(27:48):
back to the teenage brain,they are actually slightly more altruistic
than adults. And I think wewant to tap into that and go with
the grain of teenagedevelopment and appeal to their love
of social justice and havethose kind of conversations. And
those seems to, they seem towork well together to reduce the
(28:09):
horrors of social media.
If there was one thing thatyou would want readers of the Gift
of Teenagers to take away fromyour book, Rachel, what would that
be?
Oh, I would say believe inyourself. Line up with what is really
true for you. Even though I'vegiven you all this advice at the
Gift of Teenagers, you havethe answers. And I think my book
(28:32):
is just a way to help youfigure out which. What are the answers
for you? What is true for you?The very best thing you can do for
your teenagers is to bealigned and at ease and true to your
values and what works for you.And from that place you'll have a
great connection and you'llprobably worry less and you may even
(28:54):
enjoy them as a gift.
I would be remiss if I didn'task you about the Netflix series
Adolescence because it talks,you know, in many ways about what
you're talking about and fromthe perspective of parents who may
not know much about their kidslives. So my question then is, what
(29:14):
from that series did you takeaway in terms of how parents can
maybe be more proactive abouttruly enjoying the gift of teenagers?
In a way, it's kind of likeeverything I have said so far is,
is kind of relevant. I mean,it's, it's hard just to sort of,
(29:38):
you know, give it one answer.But what I would say is the most,
for me, the most devastatingscene in that film is the love and
compassion of the parents. Butthey just didn't know what was going
on. And I think a bigmotivation in writing my book was
that I didn't always know whatwas going on. And I feel that I've
(29:59):
really tried to research theirworld. So, you know, if you remember
in the film, they don't knowabout what all these different emojis
mean, and they don't knowabout things like incel culture and
they don't know about how muchthe boy is a little bit like me.
Remember, he's on his computerevery chapter in the book. So whether
(30:20):
that's about the Internet orpornography or, you know, bullying,
because essentially that boywas being bullied. What kind of things
are your teenagers going toencounter at school online? And our
best bet is to be informed.And I mean, you know, each of those
chapters has probably gotabout 30 or 40 bits of references
(30:43):
and bits of research. Youknow, what is actually happening?
What does it look like forthem to take drugs what does that
look like? It's not like itwas for us. They just go on their
phone, they see a bunch ofemojis, they press a button, an Uber
drives up, they do a meetup,and they didn't even know that there
are children being exploitedin Bolivia, whatever it is. So it's
(31:05):
knowing what their world lookslike and keeping that communication
over and discussing it withthem and, you know, just keeping
open, open communication andbeing informed. Because there's nothing
that irritates a teenager morethan you don't know what you're talking
about. I mean, of course we'renever really going to get inside
(31:26):
their heads or their world,but we can do a jolly good, a jolly
good try. And maybe gift toteenagers is at least trying to say,
okay, here's a roadmap. Thisis what I found. This is what's going
on.
Absolutely. Certainly so muchfood for thought for parents of tweens,
certainly teens as well.Rachel Kelly, author of the Gift
(31:48):
of Teenagers thank you so muchfor your time and your insight today.
We really appreciate it.
My pleasure. To learn moreabout today's podcast, guest and
topic, as well as otherparenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.
Foreign. Welcome to the WhereParents Talk podcast. We help grow
better parents throughscience, evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Leanne Castellino.
Welcome to Where Parents Talk.My name is Lianne Castelino. Our
guest today is a mental healthwriter, a keynote speaker and a journalist.
Rachel Kelly is also a bestselling author of five books. Her
latest book is called the Giftof Teenagers. Connect More, worry
(00:44):
Less. Rachel is a mother offive and she joins us today from
London, England. Thank you somuch for taking the time.
My absolute pleasure. Thankyou for having me.
Rachel, you have raised fivechildren. You've worked for over
a decade in schools anduniversities with kids, and you've
written extensively on mentalhealth. Can you take us through how
(01:06):
all that came together in theGift of Teenagers?
Sure. So my first focus was onadult mental health. When I started
in this field, I wrote a bookabout my own experience of severe
depression, including somepostnatal depression. And because
of that, I was so lucky, Istarted collaborating with mental
health charities andparticularly King's College London,
(01:28):
where I became an associate intheir psychiatry department. And
at that stage I was lookingmore at adults. But about five years
ago, a little bit longer, Ibegan to get more and more concerned
emails from parents sayingthey were worried about their children,
especially their teenagers.And I started to be more and more
in touch with teenagersthemselves going into schools, as
(01:51):
you say. And I began to think,there's something going, going on
here. Parents are finding lifevery hard. Teenagers are finding
really life very hard. I thinkI'm going to pivot and focus more
on young people and teenagers.And that's when I started researching
the book, talking toadolescent psychiatrists, psychologists,
talking to young people,teachers, parents, and obviously
(02:14):
my own experience, and weavedit all together. And then the result
was the book came out in May.Yeah, the Gift of Teenagers. Connect
More, Worry less.
So doing that research andthinking about this topic as you
did, your lived experience, aswell, as a mother of five kids, and
some of them being teenagersthemselves at this time, what sort
(02:36):
of stood out for you? Whatgave you pause?
I think that I was just sostruck by how worried people were
and how anxious people were,especially parents. And it felt to
me as if this was not the bestplace to raise calmer and more resilient
teenagers. Because if we'reworried ourselves, that gets reflected
(02:58):
back in our relationship withour teenagers. And quite early in
my research I did an interviewwith an adolescent psychiatrist.
I was very, very struck bywhat she said. She worked with sort
of stick models like mom, dad,and teenager who's finding life difficult.
And she was saying that in thetherapy room, if you're working with
a troubled teenager and thestick figures of the mom and dad,
(03:20):
you collapse. The teenagerjust cannot cope. They are overwhelmed
themselves with some verystrong feelings and a lot going on
for them, a lot happening tothe teenage brain. And they need
us parents to be calm andsteady. And so that was really what
I was thinking, was that couldwe find ways as parents just to sort
of dial the down, dial the d,can't get the right cliche, dial
(03:43):
the worry, dial down a bit,stay a little bit calmer, and then
interact with our teenagersfrom this calmer, more settled place.
And I myself had been a veryanxious mom, so I was kind of working
on how could I be a littlecalmer? And then I noticed that this
was a much better way to getalong with my teenagers.
(04:03):
It's interesting because alevel of anxiousness or anxiety,
a little bit of worry is sortof par for the course if you're a
parent. But the book is calledthe Gift of Teenagers, which I have
to admit caught my eye,Wondered, you know, where. Where
is this going? Where's thistitle? What does this title mean?
Why did you choose to frame itas a gift?
(04:27):
Well, it was a bit of a biglearning curve for me, but I think,
you know, the cliche is thatthis is a very difficult time. And
I. And I understand that. Andto your point, I'm not saying we're
not going to never worrybecause there will always be times.
But it seemed to me, and maybethis reflected my own experience
with difficult mental healthover the years, is that teenagers
(04:47):
are a gift because we go todeep and dark places as parents of
adolescents. And this is howwe learn and grow. There are other
ways to grow and learn. Youknow, lots of ways to find that psychological
growth. But sure as hell,raising teenagers is a very demanding
time for a lot of adults. Butwe can turn this around by going
(05:09):
deeper and looking into ourown strong responses, whether we're
angry or whether we're sad. Ifwe feel rejection, we can learn a
lot. And actually, we grow andlearn as people when times are tough.
So for me, that's one bigreason that teenagers are a gift,
because they force this deeppsychological work on us. And I'd
(05:29):
say the second argument whyteenagers are a gift is that this
is a period when we can changeour relationship with young people
and end up with a very closeadult to adult relationship. And
this is a gift. We, we areraising an emerging adult and we
have a chance to have a veryunique relationship with that growing
(05:53):
person. And we're changing ourrelationship. They don't need us
in the same way. We don't haveto wipe their bottom or drive them
to college or. But we canshift that relationship from a kind
of needs based, transactional,almost relationship to an adult relationship
based on love and respect andconnection and less worry. And so
(06:14):
that's the second reason Icall the book the Gift of Teenagers.
Because a of the book is howdo we build this relationship and
what could that relationshiplook like? And for me, it's such
an exciting relationship and Ijust wanted to turn the whole dial
around. You know, we can lookat this in a very different way.
It seems to me, Rachel, asyou're talking, that so much of it
(06:35):
is about mindset, right? Theparents mindset 100%.
Yeah.
So what can you say in termsof, you know, tips you can offer
a parent about how to shiftthat perspective, sort of tweak that
mindset to invite moreconnection and, you know, keep the
worry at bay?
(06:56):
Okay, so this is almost thesimplest thing, and it's on. When
I started doing it, itimmediately shifted the energy and
the connection in therelationship. So when you're engaging
with your teenager, take apause, try and get yourself nice
and calm, maybe do a couple ofbreathing exercises, a little bit
of mindfulness, and thenbefore you even speak to them, bring
(07:17):
to mind all their greatqualities, all their gifts, and all
their strengths. So one of thedynamics I think it's really helpful
to step away from is thatthey're the victim and that we're
sorting them out and only wecan fix them. As opposed to they
are strong, growing,independent human beings. And if
you bring to mind theirstrengths. So before you say, please,
(07:38):
can you pick up thatfloordrobe or I need you to help
with dinner is just to turnaround and think of all the times
they've already helped, allthe times they did pick up their
clothes on the floor. And it'svery subtle because it's a lot to
do with energy. And it's noteven anything you say. It's just
the kind of, almost the kindof kinetic psychic energy that you
(07:58):
come to that relationship. Andthere are little practical things
you can do, like lower yourvoice. You know, teenagers are very
alive to threat. Their threatsystem is more developed than ours.
And so if we shout or raiseour voice, they're immediately going
to go into fear, fight andflight. So little things like lower
your voice, you know, don'tshout at them, things like that.
(08:21):
And then I'd say the thirdreally obvious one is just. And it
is allied to thinking of thevirtues of them. But also, and this
is where there was some lovelyresearch, and I love finding their
research. It's called thePygmalion effect, sometimes called
the Rosenthal effect, which isto do with expectations. And if we
have high expectations ofthem, high expectations of trust
(08:43):
and good behavior, they'remuch more likely to behave in a decent
way. And that is so relevantto more dangerous situations or taking
drugs or drinking or all thethings we're scared of. If we have
high expectations, we're morelikely to, to have a good and sort
of nourishing and connected relationship.
(09:06):
When you say highexpectations, some people might think,
well, you know what, that's areally fine line because you don't
want to exceed yourexpectations of them so that it is
something that they can'tattain. What can you say about how
to channel and manage theexpectations that you have as a parent
of that child?
(09:26):
It's such a good point. Andit's almost like it sounds sort of
stressful. Almost likeanything with the word high in it,
it's immediately stressful.Like high exam results, high expectations.
What I would say is if youally high expectations with reframing
mistakes, which is, I like tosay that there aren't any such thing
as a mistake. There are, youknow, every, every stumbling block
(09:49):
can be a stepping stone.Everything that supposedly doesn't
work out can be a way that. Tothink again and to reframe things.
I give you an example. Let'ssay you have a boundary that you
have a rule that they're homeat 11 and they overstepped the mark
and they're home at 12, on onelevel, they haven't lived up to your
high expectations. Theyhaven't followed through. But that
(10:12):
can be a chance to sit downwith them and maybe talk about what's
happened and often use the Iword. So, like, I find it very hard
because I have to go to workthe next day. And if you don't come
home when you're going to sayyou're going to come home, then I'm
going to be exhausted.Exhausted for work and that, those
sorts of conversations. So Ithink if you ally high expectations
(10:32):
with reframing the idea thatanything is a mistake, you can come
to a kind of a happy medium,as you say.
One of the things that yourbook talks about and you've been
very candid about is your ownmental health struggles. And I'm
curious as to how thatexperience helped and shaped your
(10:55):
parenting approach andespecially parenting teenagers.
I think the really biggestlearning that I probably had to do
with my mental health was thatwhen I was growing up. And I don't
blame my parents, it's not inthe spirit of judgment, but I was
particularly good at doingwhat other people wanted. I was really
(11:16):
good at jump how high otherpeople's expectations are of what
I should study, what I shoulddo, what kind of friends I should
have. I was very alive tobeing a sort of people pleaser. And
I think that the way this hasinformed my parents is my parenting,
is that what I would most wishfor my teenagers and for your teenagers
(11:38):
is to let them line up withwhat is truly right for them as opposed
to what you want. And I seethis all the time and I have huge
compassion for parents becauseI don't think any parent doesn't
get up in the morning and trytheir best. But there can be this
merging of what you want foryourself and what, what they want.
And I give you an example,like, so we have, you know, elite
(12:02):
universities in Oxford andCambridge here in the uk and you
might hear a parent saying,hey, I got into Oxford. And you know,
they have totally merged theiridentity and their wish fulfillment
with their teenager. Now look,it might be right for their teenager
to get into Oxford, but youknow what, maybe that teenager wanted
to be a plumber and theydidn't have that chance. And when
(12:25):
I look back at my own mentalhealth breakdowns, I had two very
serious depressive episodes inmy 30s and I ended up in hospital.
I think what a lot of therapyand a lot of work and research has
done has been to try and helpme line up with what is right for
me and to do it withcompassion and boundaries. But just
to be able to do things likesay no. I mean one of the reasons
(12:49):
I broke down is I couldn't sayno. You know, I was working, I was
being a mom, I was being awife, I was being a hostess, I was
being a friend. And I justdidn't look after myself. So it's
allied to a sense of self careand looking after yourself. But it's,
I think that's what I most tryto do with my teenagers. And what
(13:10):
I would say is that the fivehave very different outcomes. And
in that I feel good. They'renot all mini me's, they're following
their own dreams, more orless. There's a few bumps on the
way. I wouldn't like to sayit's all perfect, but remember, stumbling
blocks are stepping stones. Sowe're not trying to be perfect now.
One of the things that you getinto in the Gift of Teenagers is
(13:31):
the importance of parentsreally understanding how the teenage
brain works. In terms of thebrain science around this, what surprised
you most in the research thatyou, that you delved into?
I think really a. How ignorantwe are. We only really started looking
at the teenage brain around 15years ago. We used to think that
(13:55):
child development was justvery big sort of naught till two,
when we knew the brain wasdoing crazy things and all these
new neural pathways. And thenwe figured out that the adolescent
brain was also going through acrazy amount of change for quite
a long time through to around25. So my book is called the Gift
of Teenagers. But you know,actually a lot of, a lot of what
(14:16):
I talk about can extendthrough into the 20s. I mean, I do
make that point in theintroduction. It's, it's, it is a
broad, a broad sweep. So, sothat brain development keeps happening
right through till 25. I thinkthe other huge thing that I learned
was that everything is verynuanced. I give you an example. So
people talk about peerpressure. So you know about this
(14:37):
idea that teenagers are veryinfluenced by peer pressure. Well,
they are, but actually it's alittle more subtle than that. They
do mind what their peersthink, but only certain peers in
certain situations. So theycan actually be quite sensible. Where
things start to go wrong is ifthey're with the really cool guys,
(14:59):
then the peer pressure becomesway more intense. And there's a very
narrow understanding in theteenage brain, which is fascinating,
and I didn't realize is thatteenagers are really conservative.
They want the girls to bepretty and, you know, have blonde
hair and be a certain kind ofcurvaceous shape. And they want the
guys to be tall and strong andgood at sport. It's really amazingly
(15:20):
conventional. I mean, it hasbroken down a little bit and the
peer pressure really kicks inhard if a teenager feels they're
in this kind of cool group. Sothat's very interesting because that
makes a difference for us asparents to keep a little eye on who
are children are hanging outwith and who their friends are. And
what I would say is if you'rea parent and you're worried about
(15:42):
peer pressure and what'shappening to the teenage brain and
that sensitivity, try and getyour Teenagers to have one sensible
friend. So they're going to aparty, set up a buddy system, somebody
you trust, and then that willdial down the peer pressure. So I
think bits of research arejust a little bit more subtle sometimes
than this sort of slightcliche about, you know, they'll do
(16:04):
whatever their peers are goingto do. No, they're a little, little
thoughtful about how theyrespond to things.
In that same vein, your bookhas been described as being full
of practical strategies forparents. Are there any other key
strategies that you thinkthat, you know, the average parent
of a teen should really know?
Well, I like to give theexample of sort of old me and newer
(16:27):
me after sort of 20 years onthe teenage front line or 15 years
on the teenage front line. SoI think when I was first a teenage
mum, I was, as I say, quite apeople pleaser. And it got to the
stage that one child would eatthis and one child would want that.
And I would make a big effortat dinner and all the different dishes
and then I would shoutupstairs and say, dinner, dinner.
(16:52):
You know, not doing this. Thesort of the gentle voice that I was
telling you about before. Andthen of course, well, not of course,
but they wouldn't necessarilycome down, so I would scream harder
and say, come on down. Youknow, it's dinner, you got to eat,
you got to eat. If you don'teat, you're not going to, you know,
how can you concentrate atschool, etc, etc. And I would be
tremendously trying to forcethis sort of outcome. And one of
(17:13):
the things I think that madethat I learned was that you can really
wish for your teenagers tocome sit around the table with you.
You can't force the outcome.And the less you let go, the more
you let go of trying to forcethem to do stuff, the more likely
they are to come. So I changedhow I was as a teenage mom at dinners.
So I used to just make what Iwanted to eat and then I would get
(17:38):
myself a drink and a nicemagazine. I'm a journalist, I love
magazines. And I'd get myplate ready, everything would be
ready. I would call up onceand I'd say, it's dinner. And then
I would just go settle andstart to eat. And it took a while
before they realized that Iwas doing things differently. And
(17:58):
then they started to come fordinner on time and eat what was on
the table and mums would sayto me, well, you know what, if you
don't force them to havedinner, they're going to be hungry.
If you ever met a teenager whoisn't hungry? They are going to come
down eventually. And it's alittle like the war on drugs in America.
You say no to drugs, you'redrawn to drugs. You try and force
(18:21):
them to do things. And anotherbig thing happening in the teenage
brain is this desire forautonomy. They want to be independent.
There's something calledindividualization, which is. A psychologist
called Erik Erickson came upwith it. And it's about this sort
of separation and they'rebecoming individuals and the way
to do it is to go with it. Andthis is a good thing. Remember, it's
(18:42):
a gift. We want them to growup. We want to have an adult to adult
relationship. Would you tellyour friend, would you scream up
the stairs to your friend tocome for dinner? So I think those
are very sort of practicalways of changing. And a lot of them
are to do with you figuringout your own emotional regulation
and your own ways of thinkingand just getting yourself to this
(19:05):
nice, calm place, you know,yes, you could have that really strong
desire. Can't force theoutcome, but honor it. Don't try
and shut it down as a feeling.We can't shut down feelings. The
more we resist, they persist.Honor it, allow it, be with it, but
don't try and force it. Andit's a much less exhausting way to
be.
(19:25):
In that same vein you talkabout as well, you know, parents
engaging with adolescentsbetter. What does that look like
in terms of, you know, how canthose engage that, that engagement
be more successful at a timewhen that teen brain is developing
and there's all kinds ofphysical, emotional, social things
(19:47):
happening and you're justtrying to communicate as a parent,
but at the same time beingmindful of engaging them.
So two things. The first is asort of more broad philosophical
point. I think you're going tohave to accept that you're not always
going to engage them andthat's okay. You know, we, we feel
under such pressure. And, youknow, it's funny because I call the
(20:10):
book Connect More, Worry Less.Sometimes that connection might not
be a conversation. You couldeven just feel inside, you know,
any parent listening. If youclose your eyes and you think how
much you love your teenagers,I know they can drive you mad, but
that connection is there. Sosometimes they're not going to want
to talk to you and that isokay. And you need to attend to the
(20:31):
bit of you that might feelrejected. Maybe you're going to have
to call a friend or maybeyou're going to go for a swim. Or
do something else thataddresses your emotional need for
connection. So that's just aphilosophical point, I'd say as a
practical point. A little bitof research I really like is the
golden nine o' clock hour. Andthis is nice. So this is the idea
(20:53):
that we want to appeal to ourteenagers autonomy. 9 o' clock is
a good time. They're on adifferent circadian rhythm. They
get up later, they go to bedlater. You're probably pretty tired
by 9 o'. Clock. Maybe you'vebeen at work, you want to go to bed.
In a way, it's a, it's, itmight sound like a not a good time
to talk, but it's almost likeyour defenses are down. You're, you're
less trying to be the powerfulmom, like forcing or dad, like forcing
(21:16):
them to do their homework orthis or that. You're, you're kind
of less bossy. You might evenbe getting ready for bed. It's a
great time for them to comein. They get to choose as they come
in, they get to choose howlong they talk to you for. They get
to choose, you know, what theywant to talk about. And it's very
interesting. It's almost likeimagine them like a deer that sort
of would bounce away in theflorist. But if you're just available
(21:39):
at a time that suits them, theworst possible time, obviously to
try and get that connection isfirst thing in the morning. You're
tired, they're tired, you'retrying to get them to school, you're
going to. The connection's notgoing to be so good. So just being
artful about when you try andconnect as well as some of the things
we talked about earlier, likethat gentle voice and just being
(21:59):
in a good, good space yourself.
Absolutely. Now we mentionedthat you have five children ranging
in age from 21 to 30. Soyou've been through those teen years
having done the research,having listened to all of that information
and all of those perspectives.What else would you have done differently,
(22:20):
if anything, when you wereraising those kids?
Oh, I mean, so many things. SoI had a very long experience. So
my older children who are intheir, you know, my eldest son is
30, as you say, they were predigital, largely pre Digital. So
my 28 year old and my 30 yearold, my 25 year old daughter is like,
(22:41):
was like a pivot, the digitalthing was starting. I was deep into
the digital world with theyounger two and I think that one
of the things I had to learnwas what that means bringing up children
in the digital age and whatthat means for them and trying to
navigate that and understandwhat that means and how it changes
(23:03):
your relationship. So I thinkprobably I was a little asleep at
the wheel because I'd had withthe older ones, I hadn't had to engage
with that, and I made quite abit. Few mistakes understanding the
digital thing. I understoodphones fairly early on, and I didn't
give the younger onessmartphones. I gave them brick phones.
(23:24):
And my husband was prettysharp on it, too. We haven't really
mentioned husbands, butthey're a key part of the story if
you're lucky to have one or apartner or somebody who can help.
But yes, I was good on phones,but I was bad on computers. I didn't
understand somehow computershad this aura of respectability.
You know, we work oncomputers. They were doing homework
(23:46):
on computers. We had an officewhere part end of the kitchen where
the computers were. And Ithought, well, it's in the kitchen.
We can see what's going on.Computers are okay, but actually
they're not. So I did have alot to learn and that changing story.
So I'd say that there's aparticular cohort of children, teenagers
(24:08):
now, sort of born in 2003,2004, where my younger ones were
born. And they. They've hadquite a particular experience. They've
been through Covid. They'recompletely digital natives. And there
are some particular issuesaround them which I had to really
get up to speed on.
So what then did you learn interms of. And what can you offer
in terms of how parents cannavigate what really amounts to the
(24:31):
minefield of social mediathese days, which, you know, you
talk about the pandemic, it'sjust only exacerbated in terms of
its impact on people's.
Lives in that age group inparticular, 100%. I mean, I think
I would. I would make a broadphilosophical point before a sort
of practical point. I think wehave to think what is. What is underlying
(24:52):
the phone thing? Why. Why areteenagers so drawn to their phones?
Why are we so drawn to ourphones? And I would say that underneath
it all is a longing forconnection. You know, what do we
want? You know, I'm chattingto you now. I want to connect with
you. I mean, I'm talking toyour audience. I want to connect
with them. And our teenagersare no different. And I think that
(25:12):
is the essential lure of thedigital world is this longing for
connection. And it's not allbad because, you know, say you are
in some lonely village in themiddle of Nowhere. You're never going
to find maybe another teenagerwho has perhaps the same outlook
on some issue around identityor sexuality. And that can be a wonderful
(25:33):
way to find that connectiononline. So it's not all bad. But
what I would say is that weneed to stay super connected as parents
for as long as we possiblycan, so that when our teenagers go
online and they have thechance to connect with whoever they
want online, and we're nevergoing to be able to control that.
They start from, they bringthemselves to their phone and if
(25:56):
we keep that good connection,which the whole book is about, really
how you're going to do that,and we've already shared some ideas,
you got a better chance thenof not losing them to this sort of
Internet rabbit hole, becauseyou hold on tight to that connection.
And I'd say in practicalterms, I think the best thing you
(26:17):
can do is everything has to bedone in a joint way, has to be collaborative.
If you tell your teenager, youknow, you can't do this, you can't
go on that, they're going tofind a way. I have never. If you.
If I talk to 30 teenagers in aschool and I ask them, have you got
round any restrictions? 100%,they get round, they. They buy burner
(26:38):
phones, they get their ownvpn, they will find a way to go online
if they want. You cannot forcethem not to. The only way to do it
is to build on highexpectations, trust, communication
and a straightforwardconversation about the kind of stuff
that they're going to find.And being very open is like, if you
spend six hours on TikTok, howdoes that make you feel? And probably
(27:02):
they're going to say, you knowwhat? I feel terrible. So we have
to keep that kind of opencommunication and a very straightforward,
like, you know, open questionslike, how is it going to make you
feel? You know, what do youfeel about it? And one final thing
I'd say about phones thatseems to work so well with teenagers
is they have a very strongsense of social justice. They are
(27:26):
at the forefront of a lot ofimpressive movements. You know, Black
Lives Matter, a lot oftolerance and acceptance of difference.
And if you talk to them aboutsome of the exploitation that is
happening in the pornographyindustry, if you talk to them about
some of the exploitation thatis happening among tech firms, about
how they're using their data,they do not like it. And if you go
(27:48):
back to the teenage brain,they are actually slightly more altruistic
than adults. And I think wewant to tap into that and go with
the grain of teenagedevelopment and appeal to their love
of social justice and havethose kind of conversations. And
those seems to, they seem towork well together to reduce the
(28:09):
horrors of social media.
If there was one thing thatyou would want readers of the Gift
of Teenagers to take away fromyour book, Rachel, what would that
be?
Oh, I would say believe inyourself. Line up with what is really
true for you. Even though I'vegiven you all this advice at the
Gift of Teenagers, you havethe answers. And I think my book
(28:32):
is just a way to help youfigure out which. What are the answers
for you? What is true for you?The very best thing you can do for
your teenagers is to bealigned and at ease and true to your
values and what works for you.And from that place you'll have a
great connection and you'llprobably worry less and you may even
(28:54):
enjoy them as a gift.
I would be remiss if I didn'task you about the Netflix series
Adolescence because it talks,you know, in many ways about what
you're talking about and fromthe perspective of parents who may
not know much about their kidslives. So my question then is, what
(29:14):
from that series did you takeaway in terms of how parents can
maybe be more proactive abouttruly enjoying the gift of teenagers?
In a way, it's kind of likeeverything I have said so far is,
is kind of relevant. I mean,it's, it's hard just to sort of,
(29:38):
you know, give it one answer.But what I would say is the most,
for me, the most devastatingscene in that film is the love and
compassion of the parents. Butthey just didn't know what was going
on. And I think a bigmotivation in writing my book was
that I didn't always know whatwas going on. And I feel that I've
(29:59):
really tried to research theirworld. So, you know, if you remember
in the film, they don't knowabout what all these different emojis
mean, and they don't knowabout things like incel culture and
they don't know about how muchthe boy is a little bit like me.
Remember, he's on his computerevery chapter in the book. So whether
(30:20):
that's about the Internet orpornography or, you know, bullying,
because essentially that boywas being bullied. What kind of things
are your teenagers going toencounter at school online? And our
best bet is to be informed.And I mean, you know, each of those
chapters has probably gotabout 30 or 40 bits of references
(30:43):
and bits of research. Youknow, what is actually happening?
What does it look like forthem to take drugs what does that
look like? It's not like itwas for us. They just go on their
phone, they see a bunch ofemojis, they press a button, an Uber
drives up, they do a meetup,and they didn't even know that there
are children being exploitedin Bolivia, whatever it is. So it's
(31:05):
knowing what their world lookslike and keeping that communication
over and discussing it withthem and, you know, just keeping
open, open communication andbeing informed. Because there's nothing
that irritates a teenager morethan you don't know what you're talking
about. I mean, of course we'renever really going to get inside
(31:26):
their heads or their world,but we can do a jolly good, a jolly
good try. And maybe gift toteenagers is at least trying to say,
okay, here's a roadmap. Thisis what I found. This is what's going
on.
Absolutely. Certainly so muchfood for thought for parents of tweens,
certainly teens as well.Rachel Kelly, author of the Gift
(31:48):
of Teenagers thank you so muchfor your time and your insight today.
We really appreciate it.
My pleasure. To learn moreabout today's podcast, guest and
topic, as well as otherparenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.
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