Episode Transcript
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Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
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advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
What leads to estrangement andwhat do adult children need from
their parents to rebuild theirrelationship after silence and hurt?
Welcome to Where Parents Talk.My name is Lianne Castelino. Our
guest today is a licensedclinical social worker and an executive
and family coach. CatherineHickem is also a psychotherapist
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and founder of Parenting AdultChildren Today, a platform grounded
in her clinical and livedexperience. Catherine is also an
author and a mother of two.She joins us today from Atlanta,
Georgia. Thank you so much fortaking the time.
Thank you for having me.
Katherine, you spent decadeshelping families manage conflict.
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What led you in particular tofocus on the parent adult relationship?
I was seeing a pattern and atheme evolve that said we are in
trouble culturally because,because people are not continuing
relationships once they hityoung adulthood. And it was frightening
to me because we are settingpatterns that are hard to break once
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they establish some pretty badhabits. And our families are extremely
important to our overall wellbeing as a, as a group of people,
as a culture. So I saw peoplenot talking for years. I saw people
like not being able to seegrandchildren. You know, we went
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through the COVID years whichbrought up all kinds of separation
because of the, the issuesaround medical issues or politics.
And so brokenness and pain andsuffering just became pretty heavy
among the families that werereaching out to me. And it was like,
we have to do something. Wehave to really bring attention to
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the importance of figuring outways that we can heal, restore, and
move forward. Even in themidst of us not always agreeing or
understanding, there is alwaysspace for us to find some common
ground.
So along those lines, youbelieve that estrangement is not
random. What do you mean by that?
I think adult children inparticular give signals to their
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parents far before the parentsfigure it out. I think the parents
are accustomed to parenting ina particular way. They've been doing
it the entire life of thatadult child and they don't often
and evolve and change and growas the adult child evolves, changes
and grows. And so what ends uphappening is that adult child has
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figured out because they havebeen raised by that parent, what
the values of that parentshappen to be that no longer line
up with who they think theyare. So they take off on their own
journey and often live asecret Life, a life that doesn't
include them, because theydon't want to deal with the conflict,
they don't want to deal withthe rejection, they don't want to
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deal with criticism. So thesigns will be there that more and
more they are more private,they're less revealing of what's
happening in their lives. Andas a result, distance begins to set
in. And by the time, a lot oftimes, parents figure it out or come
to the reality that there's aproblem, there's been significant
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time go by or significantdamage occur.
So where does the onus lie?Who is responsible in that scenario
that you just outlined? Withthe parent who perhaps hasn't changed
and the young adult child whoperhaps has evolved, who needs to
do what first?
I think it's the parent. Ithink, you know, we brought them
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into the world, we adoptedthem or we birthed them, but they
are ours. And so therefore we.We have had tremendous control and
influence over their lives,which we should have because that
was our job. But as theybecame adults, we did not step back
and really look to see who aremy adult children versus who I think
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they are or who I wanted themto be. And so the greater the disparity
between how that adult childperceives themself and how that parent
holds on to their definitionof who that adult child should be
is when that wall begins tobuild and form. And that's unfortunate
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because it basically is aboutnot disappointing the parent versus
really the parent getting toknow the adult child and who they've
unfolded to become. So I thinkit's very important for parents to
realize maybe I need to getcurious. Maybe I need to be asking
some questions. Maybe I needto not assume that I really do know
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them. Maybe I need to believethat there's parts of them that have
unfolded that were not withinmy purview, that I need to ask some
questions. About what?
About a case where the parentis deeply set in their ways, and
it's clear that that's notgoing to be moving. The clock is
ticking and the child feelslike the onus is now on them because
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there is no other option. Whatwould you say in that case to encourage
or to empower that individualto go to their parents and try to
repair the relationship?
Well, I think you saidsomething very important, Ann, and
that is if indeed this childhas already figured out that that
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parent is not going to change,then they need to quit trying to
kick that door down. They needto, quote, get into a relationship
with a counselor or therapistand do some Grief, work and grieve.
What need will probably neverbe met by that parent? Because it's
in the grieving that they canlet go of the expectation that will
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then lead them to be able tohave a relationship with that parent,
but with very differentexpectations. They will not keep
going back to the well forwater when there's no water in that
well. They will be able tosay, this is my parent, I love them,
I care about them, but I donot expect them to know me or to
accept me for who I am. Thisis about their brokenness, this is
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about their fear. But I'm notgoing to let it impact how I see
myself or whether or not I'mworthy to be loved. It's heavy. It's
a heavy load for an adultchild to have to come to terms. But
the truth is over 22% of thepopulation have mental illness. And
so when we're dealing withthat percentage, that means there's
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a lot of adult children whoare never going to get their needs
met by parents who don't havethe capacity to get to meet their
needs. But that doesn't meanyou still can't have a relationship.
But there has to be a verysignificant adjustment on what they
are wanting in therelationship and what they can expect
to get back from the relationship.
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Are there any other statisticsthat have given you pause as you
continue to do this work? Andcertainly looking at trends over
time, are there statisticsthat in particular you find striking?
I think the one that mostalarmed me, and we just did a research
on this, or just did a deepdive into some research on this just
a few months ago, was that 26%of all adult children from 18 to
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40 do not have a relationshipcurrently with a parent. That is
alarming in a culture thatsays families are, you know, the
foundation of, of who webecome. And that's not even counting
the people who are over 40,who are broken and who were the relationships.
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Another statistic that wasconcerning to me was that over 42%
of adult children share, willnot share what is happening in their
private world with theirparents. They do not discuss their
personal relationships. Theywill not discuss their own mental
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health. Now, I find that veryalarming because if you can't talk
to the very people who broughtyou into the world about your own
mental health, well, where areyou going to go when times get hard,
when difficulties come? You'restruggling with depression, you're
very anxious. If you can'ttalk to the people who you would
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hope know you the best, whohave history with you, who could
be able to share with you?Well, this is how you used to handle
it, or this is how. What Inoticed with you, just that information,
that family historyinformation. If adults do not have
that sense of safety to beable to have those type of conversations,
that's very concerning becausenow they have to talk to strangers
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to be able to findinformation, support, comfort, hope.
And not everybody has asupport system other than the biological
people or the family that theygrew up with. So it's very concerning
that we've become very walledoff emotionally. Adult children are
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more likely to talk aboutgrandchildren, and they're more likely
to talk about their jobs withtheir parents than they are personal
issues. So that's very disturbing.
We live in uniquelychallenging times. If we're looking
at the global epidemic ofyouth mental health challenges, if
we're looking at the globalepidemic of loneliness and isolation,
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not the least of which affectsthe elderly people in our lives.
When you think about all thecontributing factors potentially
that lead to estrangement of ayoung adult child or an adult child
from their parents, are thereany particular patterns or missteps
that many people will findthemselves committing?
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I think one of the biggestmistakes that parents make is their
expectations and what theproblem is. They don't even see that
they have them because they'vebeen with them from the very beginning.
And my son is adopted, and Igot a letter a month before he was
born from his birth mother whogave me her heart about her expectations
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of him and his future. Theystart very early. They start in the
womb. The minute you find outyou're going to be a mom, you begin
to have a dream of what theywill be, what they will accomplish,
or what they will look like,or all kinds of things. We carry
those with us. And as ourchildren unfold, we gather more and
more expectations. And then wehave the cultural norms, the values,
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the. That we expect them toembrace. We expect them to embrace
maybe our political values,our religious values, our educational
goals, and they just becomelike, breathing. We don't think anything
of it. And yet not everybodyembraces what they were raised with,
because it's not who they are.It doesn't fit for them. It's. It
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doesn't feel right to them. Sothe conflict that happens in an adult
child over walking away fromwhat they've been raised to believe
as to who they are versuswhat's really in their gut as to
who they are is very intensefor a lot of adult children. And
so they have to make somereally important decisions. Am I
going to, quote, spend my lifetrying to please my parents, which
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I've not observed that I'vebeen able to do, or am I going to
stay true to who I am? Andthat's a huge burden to put on a
shoulder of an evolving youngadult. But even an adult in their
30s to think that I'm adisappointment. I once had a gentleman
in my practice. I was seeinghis wife in therapy, and she was
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in for depression. She was inher mid-60s. I asked her if her husband
would come in, and he did, buthe didn't want to be there. And about
15 minutes in theconversation, he looked at me and
said, can you tell me why mymom and dad have never accepted me?
Why am I not good enough? I'vespent my whole life in the family
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business, and no matter what Ido, and it's never enough. It's never
good, and they don't love me.And he just had these big tears fall
down his face. And this was aman who had never, ever been. He
never felt accepted orreceived or known or understood.
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And this is what happens topeople in their lives when the very
people who brought them heredon't know them and don't seek to
know who they have become.
Building on that point,Katherine, you believe and you teach
that relationships begin withintention. What does that look like
when that relationship breaksdown and becomes strained?
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That means a parent is goingto have to own responsibility for
whatever part they contributedto the breakdown of the relationship.
And if they don't know whatthat is, then this is that time for
them to be asking somebodyvery important questions. It can
start with an email. It canstart with a phone call. Whatever
their relationship, what's thebest way for them to launch into
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a conversation, but to atleast put the foot in the water that
says, hey, I've noticed thatyou and I haven't had some really
quality time. And I can sensethat maybe you're pulling away. And
I am concerned that maybe I'vedone something that has contributed
to that. And I really want toknow what that is because you're
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very important to me. I loveyou. And I haven't been a perfect
parent. So I want to know whatneeds to. What conversation do we
need to happen in order forthere to be restored communication?
So I can, you know, either ownmy part of the problem or apologize
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if I need to, but I. I don'twant this to continue going down
the path that it feels likewe're currently going down. Just
being able to. To takeresponsibility and not blaming, not
judging, but just saying thatsomething's off. Do you feel that
too? That says to that adultchild, I care, I'm, I'm observing,
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I'm paying attention and I, Iwant you to know I'm here and I want
to be in relationship withyou. It's a powerful step and they
may choose to do somethingwith it and they may choose not to
do with it, but you've donethe right thing by laying the groundwork
to communicate their value toyou and the fact that you're not
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going to quit on them.
For some parents who thinkthat they are doing the right things,
that they mean well, it maynot come across and be received in
the way that it was intended.You know, what would you say to that
parent who unintentionally iscausing an estrangement, potential
estrangement issue with theiradult child, but they think that
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they're doing somethingpositive rather than negative.
I see that a lot actually,because what ends up happening is
that parents, because theydon't make the changes and the transition
of, you know, the preadulthood to adulthood, they just
keep parenting with the samedegree of freedom that they had when
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the child lived at home. Sothey're very opinionated. They will
give advice that's not beingasked for. They think they're helping.
You know, the good, the goodpart is they care, they love them,
they want to protect themfrom, you know, pain and suffering
and challenges. But what endsup, the residual effect is that it
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can come across as beingdismissive, disrespectful, insulting.
It's saying, saying I don'ttrust that you have enough sense
to figure this problem out.And therefore our good, well meaning
heart can blow up in our facebecause we were trying to help. But
the truth is they didn't askfor our help. And if they're not
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asking for our help, sometimesthey just need to be able to vent.
They just need to be able tohear themselves orally process them.
You know, what's happeningwith someone who knows them or who's
walked a lot of experienceswith them. And so, so we've got to
get real clear on what do ouradult children need from us versus
what we keep projecting ontothem is our responsibility to give
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to them. And that's wherethose murky waters can really be
very hurtful and can bring trust.
Well, and that all is reallyrooted in self reflection. Right.
And so what can you say to aparent who maybe doesn't have the
self awareness, who to do theself reflection to then address the
problem that they don'trealize they may be creating.
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I mean, that's a really greatpoint. I think we need to start with
the mirror. I think the veryfirst thing that we need to do is
to get honest about how we'refeeling about what's happening in
our adult children's lives.And we need to be honest about our
fears, because every baddecision that we have ever made,
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really, on any level, butespecially in our parenting, the
root cause is fear. And if wecan get really honest with what's
my biggest fear with where myadult child happens to be in this
situation, step back, think itthrough, and then say, okay, what
does this mean for me? Whatdoes this mean for them? And just
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starting to think through thatfilter, and it allows us then to
make different choices on howwe want to address the challenge,
the problem, or the issue. Butright now, if we're just going in
and we're, we're approachingthings from a reactive state instead
of a reflective state, we'regoing to allow emotion to drive our
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words, our engagements, ouropinions, instead of stepping back
and going, what's reallyhappening here? What you know, are
they really asking me forinformation or am I just volunteering
it because I'm anxious andthis is what I do when I'm anxious?
Or am I willing to let themstruggle to come to their own conclusions
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and bring those so we candiscuss that? So self awareness is
a gift. It is an absolute giftto every member of the family because
it basically says I can chooseto be a response instead of a reaction
when I have self awareness.
There are many families wheretalking, texting, gathering for holidays
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with their, you know, adultchildren is a thing that happens,
but they may be emotionallyestranged. What does that involve
specifically and how can thatbe addressed?
Well, I think, you know, oneof the benefits of holidays is that
it families do get togethersometimes in spite of the, quote,
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current email, emotionalcommunication that's taking place,
the patterns, the habits, thehistory, the traditions can often
work for us. But I do thinkwhen we are experiencing holidays
and it's just perfunctory,where people are doing it because
they have to, we really wantto, quote, observe as parents and
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do what we can to ask beforethose events, what would make this
a special holiday for you? Isthere something that we could do
in our home that would allowyou or encourage you to, like, really
have more enjoyment? You know,is there, you know, is there a favorite
meal that you would like forme to cook? Is there something that
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we used to do when you wereyounger? That you would like to introduce
to your family this year. Youknow, what are some special things
that would make this ameaningful holiday to you? It's,
it's, it's demonstratingawareness and sensitivity without
getting into the heaviness ofhow come you're acting this way?
Because the holidays are notthe time to be problem solving, major
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family, you know,dysfunctional issues. It's a time
to. But to learn, to observe,to listen and to watch. So, you know,
seeking ways by which theholiday would be more enjoyable is
a way of showing honor, It's away of showing respect, and it's
a way of saying, I care thatthis is an important holiday for
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you, not just what it does forus when.
We'Re talking about, you know,estrangement involving adult children
and their parents, generationsand sort of that generational gap
in some cases, it's, it's achasm that exists between those two
parties. So much has gone on,certainly for young adults these
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days and, you know, young,well, adults in their 20s, 30s, and
40s that their parents intheir 60s, 70s, 80s, you know, just
cannot understand. So whatwould you suggest could be a respectful
first step for a parent whomight be in this category to take
to repair the relationshipwith their child?
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This sounds really simple, butit, it starts with, it is very clear.
I have hurt you, and I ambrokenhearted that I have hurt you.
And I don't even know where tobegin to tell you how deeply sorry
I am because I'm not fullysure of all the ways that I've hurt
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you. But I want to understandand is there a time where we can
really discuss this and putthis on the table? I think what happens
with adult children want toknow that the parents don't quit.
They need to know that they'renot going to just walk away and go,
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oh, you know, oh, well, toobad, so sad. They need to know that
the parent does care. Theyneed to know that it matters to them
that there's a brokenrelationship. And so I think part
of that is us being sure thatwe're not assuming that they know.
I mean, I've, I've had severalparents in recent weeks say to me,
you know, I, I don'tunderstand what I did. And it's been
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going on for years and I stilldon't understand what I did. And
I would say to them, well,what have you done in order to, you
know, you know, cross thatbridge? And they would go, well,
you know, I would just, youknow, text them and say hi. Just
wanted to Check in and let youknow I'm here. But it didn't get
any further than, hey,checking in. Because that kind of
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a text doesn't say, I knowthere's a problem. It just says,
I'm checking in. So if we'rereally serious about solving a problem
and reconnecting andrebuilding trust, we're going to
have to be willing to have theserious conversation and take some
risk with saying something'sdrastically wrong. Clearly, I've
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owned. I've done something. I.I don't want that to be the case
because I love you and thishurts. This is hurtful. And I don't
want you to feel like you'refloating in the world not thinking
that I don't care because Ideeply, deeply care. So I think it's
a question. We can't stopmaking the effort. That doesn't mean
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we do it every day. Thatdoesn't mean that you, you know,
we bang on their door everymorning. But it does mean that we
don't stop reaching out. We.We. We still celebrate their birthdays.
It may be that we send a card.It may be that, you know, we send
gifts on Christmas or that weare writing letters to say, you know,
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here's some things that I'vebeen working on in my life. You know,
I would love to see how, youknow, how I have contributed to where
you are, you know, and. Orsome of the other part of this is
reassuring them that there'sabsolutely nothing in their life
that they could have done thatwould make them be rejected. Because
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I will tell you, a lot ofadult children have said to me. I
know, I heard my parents talkabout other people's children making
decisions over the course ofmy life. And I know the things that
my parents thought werehorrible, horrible and bad. And I
have done some of thosethings, and my parents will never,
ever, ever know what I've donebecause I don't want to deal with
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the pain of them having theopportunity to reject me and to hurt
me. And so therefore, I justkeep them at a distance. And they
don't know about my lifebecause they're fearful that the
very people who brought theminto the world would be the very.
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That's a very deep, deep woundthat some people never get over.
And so they avoid it insteadof facing it.
Speaking of avoidance, let'ssay that one of the two sides decides
to take the first step. Isthere value in going over the history
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and, you know, risking goingdown a road where it digs up a lot
of anger and frustration? Andmaybe regresses and devolves the
whole point of. Of connectingin the first place, or is there value
in looking ahead and does itdepend on the situation?
I think it depends on thesituation because sometimes you can't
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move forward until you havehealed from the wounds of the past.
So I definitely think therehas to be some healing, but it does
not help to dig up everyproblem that has ever existed in
all of your childhood. To getto this point, I think we need to
be really clear. What are thethemes and the patterns? That's what
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I always tell parents to lookfor when they are approaching, you
know, was it the fact thatthey didn't. That the adult child
didn't feel respected or thatthe adult child felt like they were
a constant disappointment?Disappointment. Or that the parent
may have violated boundariesthat the adult children had set.
You know, try to put it intobuckets as to what are the categories
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that have been the areas thathave been the most hurtful. Look
for those patterns and thoseseams and then talk about when my
boundaries are violated. Thisis how it makes me feel. I don't
feel respected, I don't feelvalued, and I don't feel safe with
you. So if we're going to havea relationship, I have to know that
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the boundaries are going to behonored and respected. That you,
you, you try to keep it in,you know, themes because that, because
you can't go into the minutiaeof everything that's ever happened.
But you can sure start withpick two or three areas. Just work
on those two or three areas,but have really clear boundaries
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as to what, what does healthylook like to you and come up with
some agreement as to, youknow, what's going to be the code
word. Mom, if you start toquote, tell me what to do again.
How can I tell you? I didn'task. Mom, I want to figure this out
for myself without you gettingyour feelings hurt and without me
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wanting to run away. Havingconversations are really important,
but we struggle to know how tohave hard conversations with each
other without it getting tooemotional and escalated. And there's
the reason why people are sofearful to confront challenging issues
is because they're scared ofgetting out of control and then things
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getting worse. So what they dois they just push back, you know,
and like, hide and go, youknow, underground, where they don't
connect at all.
So then what defines a healthyparent, adult child relationship
today?
Mutual respect. Recognizingthat both people are both ages are
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working on becoming betterversions of themselves, that they
are not going to Be perfect.They're going to make mistakes. Being
willing to own those mistakeswith each other and taking responsibility
for those mistakes. Being ableto say I'm sorry. Being able to ask
really good questions, askinghow can I support you or. Or, you
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know, or being able to say,look, I'm really struggling with
this right now, and so you maynot hear from me for a few days because
I've got some things I got towork through, but I'm okay. I'll
stay in touch. Just want tolet you know I'm. I've just got to
handle some things on my own,but just being able to have the respect
that you would with a really,really good friend. Recognizing,
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though, that your heart'sinvolved and that, you know, reminding,
I think, that adult child thatat the end of the day, there will
be nothing that will make menot be there for you. Should you
ever find yourself with yourback against the wall, I want to
be the first call that youmake and mean it. Don't say it if
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you can't back it up and. Andyou don't mean it. Don't ever say
something you can't back up.It's. That's a huge issue for adult
children. They got to knowthat they can count on you to be
who you say you are becausethat's integrity and character.
If you were to speak to theparents directly, listening to this
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or watching this interviewtoday and have them leave with just
one message, what would it be?
I really believe in my heartof hearts that a parent should never
quit on their adult child,regardless of what happens. That
doesn't mean we don't have tohave boundaries in situations that
are. That are very healthy andvery clean with adult children who
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may be going through reallydifficult times. But our how is extremely
important. So will my adultchildren have a memory of me, of
someone who left a legacy ofkindness, respect, and honor in the
midst of whatever challengesthat came my way? Can I look for
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good things in an adult childwhen they are at their worst? Can
I be a. A person who doesn'treact, but who responds? And if I
can be a responder instead ofa reactor, I have the opportunity
to create a bond with thatadult child that says to the last
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breath of my body, I know thatthey will always love me in spite
of what the choices that I'vemade. That, to me, is a gift that
we can. That we have controlover. Because the last thing I really
believe is this. Parenting isnot about how my child turns out.
Parenting is about how I showup in the relationship with that
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child throughout the course oftheir life. Parenting is about me,
not about my child.
Katherine Hickam,psychotherapist, founder of Parenting
Adult Children Today Lots offood for thought on a very important
topic. Thank you so much fortaking the time.
Thank you.
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To learn more about today'spodcast guest topic as well as other
parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.