May 24, 2025 • 35 mins
How can parents raise strong, confident daughters in a world still shaped by sexism?
In this episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino speaks with Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein, clinical psychologist, award-winning author, and mother of two, about how to support girls' self-esteem, mental health, and identity development in today’s social climate.
The conversation explores how sexism subtly influences girls’ daily lives—from screen time to social media. Learn practical parenting strategies to help girls build confidence, emotional strength, and a healthy sense of self-worth.
Takeaways:
- Understanding the impact of societal sexism on girls' self-esteem is crucial for parents today.
- Parents need to be mindful of implicit biases that influence how they communicate with daughters.
- Teaching girls about gender bias prepares them to navigate societal challenges effectively.
- Recognizing and addressing the emotional health of girls can help combat the pressures of perfectionism.
- Open communication about the realities of consent and relationships is vital for young girls.
- Empowering girls to assert themselves helps foster independence and resilience against bullying.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Psychology Today
- New York Times
- Atlantic
- Oprah Daily
- Harvard Business Review
This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.
You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Psychology Today
- New York Times
- Atlantic
- Oprah Daily
- Harvard Business Review
- EV magazine
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
How do you raise strong, selfassured girls in a world still shaped
by sexism? Welcome to WhereParents Talk. My name is Leanne Castellino.
Our guest today is a clinicalpsychologist and an award winning
author. Dr. Joanne Finkelsteinruns a clinical practice for adolescents
(00:46):
and families with a particularfocus on raising girls against the
backdrop of gender bias,mental health and social justice.
Her blog appears in PsychologyToday and her work has been featured
in the New York Times, theAtlantic, Oprah Daily and the Harvard
Business Review. Dr.Finkelstein is also a mother of two
(01:07):
teens. Her latest book iscalled Sexism and Raising Empowered,
Resilient Girls in the ModernWorld. She joins us today from Chicago.
Thank you so much for being here.
I'm so glad to be here.
Obviously a timely andrelevant topic for the times we live
in. I wanted to start byasking you, Dr. Finkelstein, what
(01:29):
did you feel was missing fromthe conversation that inspired you
to want to write this book?
Yeah, that's a great question.I feel like we understand most parents,
most people understand thatthere is sexism in the world, there
is misogyny. What I think thatthey're missing sometimes is just
(01:53):
how ubiquitous it is and howour daughters are forming their self
esteem against, you know, oragainst within this whole system.
Right. It's not many of usthink like, you know, we love our
daughters, we're raising ourdaughters up and yes, they are going
to hit these, you know,unpleasant, discreet incidents now
(02:17):
and again. But really theirentire sense of self and their sense
of who they can be and whothey are in the world is being fed
by, you know, a gender biasedsociety. And so I really wanted to
lay out exactly what andexactly what girls are experiencing
(02:39):
and how it and how we canfight back against it because we
really can as parents.
So let's unpack that a littlebit. You've got your clinical practice,
you've been at that for over20 years and then you've got the
various books that you'vewritten. So, you know, let's talk
about what strikes you mostabout the current trends. And certainly
(03:03):
the topic of girls and womenhas gained particular attention in
the last handful of years. Sowhat are you noticing with those,
that lens that you have on it?
What was the question?
What are you noticing in termsof the lens that you have on this
topic about what's going on insociety today.
(03:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think it'sgetting worse, right. Like we sort
of be. When my book first cameout, you know, as I was writing this
book, there was a sense ofthings, the tide changing, Right.
And rather than the progresswe were seeing, we were seeing a
(03:44):
lot of backlash, right. As Iwas writing it, Roe v. Wade got dismantled.
And then when my book came outIn September of 2024, sexism and
sensibility, it was consideredan important book. After the election,
it suddenly became. Peoplestarted calling it timely and crucial.
(04:07):
Right. Because we were seeingmore women's rights being stripped.
And so what we're seeing nowis the rise of what people are calling
the woman's sphere. Right.It's sort of a play on the term of
the manosphere, Right. Whichis, you know, for listeners that
(04:31):
don't totally know what themanosphere is. Right. It's. It's
men and young men who havebeen on the Internet sort of recruiting
boys and teenagers and youngadults to believe that the loneliness
that they're feeling, and theyare feeling loneliness and sadness
(04:52):
and depression, but that it'sthe fault of a woman. Right. That
it's women and feminism. Thatwomen and feminism have sort of taken
away their rights and theirrights to be in a relationship in
the way they want to be in arelationship. And so it's blaming
that. So now the counterpartto that is the woman's fear. And
(05:15):
I think it is a new thing thatparents are going to have to sort
of keep their eye on if theywant to raise progressive girls who
have all the same rights asboys and men. And that is, you know,
a lot of people know abouttrad wife content. It can be very
beautiful content and it canbe very alluring. And then there
(05:39):
are, you know, people likeBrett Coop Cooper and Candace Owens
who are really talking aboutthis sort of gender essentialist
view that we are made to be inthe home, that we are the better
caregivers, that something iswrong with us if we want to choose
(05:59):
a career or to sit in somehorrifying cubicle over taking care
of our children. It is thisway of convincing girls that life
is hard because it is right.They don't have to be convinced of
that or young women, but thatthe answer lies in this sort of beautiful
(06:21):
glossed overview that thesepeople in EV magazine and all of
these sort of conservativemagazines that are popping up to
convince our daughters thatthey don't want more and they shouldn't
want more.
So interesting. You talk aboutthe shifting societal tides as you
were writing this book, and Iwonder, you know, what kind of approach
(06:45):
did you use on this massivetopic as it's shifting, as it's evolving
into this timely and relevantspace that we're in? When you decided
to write it, what was your approach?
You know, I wrote it as atimeless book. Right. I did not predict
(07:05):
we'd be where we are now. Imean, I, of course, worried about
it, and I understand thatwhere there's progress, there's backlash.
But I do think it's a reallytimeless book. I mean, I hope it
will. It will run its courseand we won't need it in the future.
But I think that the approachI took was really looking at the
(07:25):
subtle sexism. Right. Likesexual harassment. Sexual assault
was in the news, and there'scertainly a big chapter on that.
But I was more interested inhelping parents understand the subtle
messages that girls aregetting and also the subtle messages
that parents are giving.Right. Without realizing it, even
(07:47):
the most progressive parentshave, including myself, including
people who write books aboutthis, have implicit biases that we're
passing on to our daughters.And so I took the approach of let's
really scrutinize who we are,who our culture is, so that we can
raise our daughters in waysthat make them feel good about themselves
(08:11):
and good about who they wantto be. And that could be anybody.
Right. I'm not anti staying athome with your children, but just
really focusing in on who youwant to be as opposed to who the
culture tells you you should be.
Anything in your research thatparticularly struck you as you set
out to write this book?
(08:31):
Oh, so many things. You know,one thing that I like to highlight,
because it's sort of. It'ssort of shocking to parents, but,
you know, we are, as parents,two and a half times more likely
to Google, is my son gifted?Than is my daughter gifted? And for
(08:53):
her, we're twice as likely toGoogle, is my daughter overweight?
Right. So it's not. It's notconscious. Right? We don't. If you
asked, we'd say, no, mydaughter's just as smart as my son.
But on some level, we don'tbelieve girls are as smart as boys,
and we don't believe. Andthere's research to back that up,
(09:13):
and we don't believe that itmatters as much.
Interesting. So then, Dr.Finkelstein, what would you say are
some of the commonmisconceptions that parents have
about raising confident,resilient girls today?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion. Okay. So I think that they
(09:39):
believe they're raising theirgirls to be as entitled as boys.
Right? And when we talk aboutentitlement, we usually think of
it as a bad thing. Right? Weusually think of it as somebody who
wants too much. But over andover, I see girls in my practice
(10:00):
who aren't entitled enough.Right. Who lack a healthy sense of
entitlement. And here's what Ifound when I dug into the research,
right? Girls believe that theydeserve less than boys. Right. And
so you were asking aboutresearch. One study looking at this
phenomenon discovered that itstarts as early as third grade, right?
(10:21):
So they found that when fourto nine year olds were given the
opportunity to negotiate withan adult for their favorite stickers,
the older girls, like thethird graders, asked for fewer stickers
than the boys when theynegotiated with a male. This reflects
the same gender gap innegotiation we see in adults. When
(10:43):
women don't negotiate theirfirst salary, and research shows
that they often don't, iftheir boss is male, they will lose
approximately half a milliondollars during their careers. We
have to be asking ourselves,what lessons are we teaching girls
unconsciously or directly,that lead them to believe they deserve
laughs, especially with regardto speaking up, respect and money,
(11:08):
right? So when it comes tospeaking up, we interrupt them. Right?
Research shows girls and womenare interrupted far more than boys
and men when it comes torespect. We teach them that being
liked is more important thanbeing respected. So what do girls
do? They try to be agreeableeven when they don't feel that way.
(11:28):
They prioritize other people'sneeds and comfort over their own.
And then what do we teach themabout money? Well, not much, Right.
We don't talk to girls nearlyas much about money as we do with
boys. And if that isn't enoughto convince you that the scales are
tipped in favor of boys,listen to this. Research shows we
(11:51):
pay boys shockingly moreallowance for chores and we save
more for our son's college.Right. So we are implicitly telling
girls money is a man's domain.And I've got a million more examples
for you about, you know, aboutthese double standards that we hold
without realizing it.
(12:12):
On that note, and you alludedto it earlier, are there any other
examples that come to mindwhen you talk about subtle things
that parents may be doingunintentionally, intentionally or
intentionally that, you know,continues to sort of exacerbate the
very issue that many of themare trying to address?
(12:33):
Yeah, like I said, right. Eventhe most progressive Adults aren't
immune to bias thinking. So,you know, I had a woman recently
write, write to me and emailme after she. Or maybe she was in
the middle of reading thebook, and she said, oh, my God, I
can't believe this. I'm thisprogressive feminist parent who is
(12:55):
trying really hard to raise mydaughter and sons the same way. And
reading your book, I'mrealizing, I think I shut my daughter
down when she has strongopinions, even though my son is the
more outspoken and opinionatedone. Right? And so she went to her
(13:16):
daughter and said, I think Imight be doing this. And her daughter
start to cry from therecognition because she couldn't
articulate what her mother wasdoing, but she knew something felt
bad. Right? And so I thinkthere are these ways that we expect
girls to sort of be capital G,good, right? Listen, be patient,
(13:37):
be easy. And then when theydon't fit this notion of femininity
that was put on us, that weare caring implicitly, we shut them
down. Right. We don't listento them as well. We think they're
being kind of aggressive. So Ithink that's a big one that we carry
in. We just really expect themto be nice.
(14:00):
So how does a parent go aboutunpacking that? Right. Because there's
so much that goes into whatyou've just described, from generational
differences to how the parentswere raised to, you know, social
media influences, societaldiscourse. I mean, it's a long list.
You're the expert, you're theresearcher who has, you know, taken
(14:21):
all of these things intoconsideration. Presumably, you know,
what is the. What is astarting point for a parent to be
more intentional about howthey're trying to raise strong, resilient
girls?
Yeah. Well, first I'll say,you know, that when girls don't feel
entitled to things like wewere talking about speaking up, being
(14:42):
treated with respect, it makesit hard for them to protect themselves.
Right. It's a very slipperyslope from gender bias and sexism
to sexual harassment andassault. So that is why I. I want
to drive this point home thatparents have to be involved in dismantling
(15:02):
these things. And the ways wedo it are. Are sort of twofold. One
is we do it directly, and oneway is we do it less directly. So
the, in. The less directapproach is the one most of us are
more comfortable with because,well, we'll get to the direct opposed,
(15:24):
but the indirect approach, itwould be like, for instance, creating
teachable moments. So you'rewatching TV with your young kid,
let's say, and you know,there's the girls, there's witches,
and they're doing magic, andit's a fun show, and it's a cool
show. And don't get me wrong,I love magic. But what the research
(15:47):
shows is that characters ontelevision who are female tend to
solve problems using magic,but male characters use stem. Right.
And their physicality. Scienceand their physicality. So that would
be something you could use asa teachable moment to say, huh? So
(16:07):
many of these shows we watchhave girls use using magic to solve
problems, which makes it seemlike real girls can't solve magic
because. Can't solve problemsbecause real girls don't have magic.
But that's silly, because weknow that girls are clever, fast
on their feet, whatever,right? So there are these ways that
you can bring it in or, youknow, you could. You could. You could
(16:33):
use a teachable moment at thedoctor's office, you know, did you
notice that the doctorinterrupted me much more than he
interrupted Daddy? That thatcould be because there's sexism that
lots of women are fightingback against, and that means lots
of women are interrupted. Butthat doesn't mean you don't have
something important to say.Right? And that's sort of the line
(16:56):
between direct and indirect.You're, like, bringing it up. But
you couldn't just be reallydirect at some point when your daughter
is picking up on stuff, whenyou've had enough, and you can say,
listen, there's this thingcalled sexism in the world, and you're
going to notice it in littleways, and you're going to notice
it in big ways. In any case, Igo into the book, I have scripts,
(17:20):
I have things that you can saythat will really help you communicate
with your daughter in a waythat doesn't rob her of the sense
that the world is fair. Thepoint is, you want to give your daughters
not too much too soon, butalso not too little, too late. And
(17:43):
so, you know, you asked mebefore why I wrote the book and what
was missing. I think what wewere finding in the culture was girl
power, right? And girl powercan be great for motivating a sense
of, you know, respect for thefemale gender. And it, you know,
and it can look like buyingthem, buying, you know, RBG paraphernalia
(18:07):
and books with strong femalecharacters. But it does not do enough
to help our girls when theyexperience real moments of gender
bias and sexism. They need thelanguage to understand what's going
on, because otherwise theyquestion their capabilities.
(18:28):
So then how should thatlanguage ideally change from Parent
to child, when that girl is atween teen or a young adult female,
you know, against the backdropof what we're seeing in terms of
the world at large, socialmedia, and all the voices that may
be countering what the parentis trying to do at home.
(18:55):
Okay, I think we can startearly, early, early with the indirect
stuff, right. Did you notice,you know, first with the media staff,
right? Like, huh, why do they.On this girl's looks? They haven't
commented on the boys at all,right? And this is actually true
(19:16):
in animated characters aswell, right, that the focus on looks
and weight is far more infemale cartoon characters than in
male. So there, you know, youcan start really early. The way I
decided with my own daughterto do it was we were watching MasterChef
Junior, and there were a lotof comments being made that felt
(19:41):
really uncomfortable to me,and it took me many seasons to say
something to her. We were kindof binge watching as a family, you
know? And, you know, the firstseason, she said, oh, I think the
girl is gonna win. I knowshe's gonna win. The second season,
she said, I really hope thisthe girl wins this time. The third
(20:03):
season, she said, girls neverwin. Right. And at that point, I
had hit my limit, and I feltlike she. That protecting her from
the idea of sexism was nolonger helpful to her and that I
needed to. That she wasbasically begging me to explain what
was happening. Right. Andbecause sexism is subtle and you
(20:25):
don't know if it's happening,you know, I. I was able to say that
to her too. I was able to say,there's this thing called sexism
going on, and you don't alwaysknow if it's happening. But here's
what I'm seeing, right? I'mseeing three male judges who are
really identifying with theboys, because that's normal. We identify
with people that look like us,right? And so they would say to the
(20:48):
boys, wow, you know, what awonderful dish. How much do you think
you'll charge for it at yourfuture restaurant? Right? They're
really thinking big for theseboys, but for the girls, they would
say, huh, what a wonderfuldish. Do you think you could do that
again, or is this a fluke?Right? And then we wonder why so
(21:12):
many women have impostersyndrome and don't. Somehow, in this
culture, we just don't believewomen are all that competent. So
I think my daughter was aroundseven when I introduced the concept.
And then as tweens and teens,I really do think it's fair Game.
I mean, you want to pick yourmoments carefully because otherwise
(21:33):
they'll shut you out, rolltheir eyes. But, you know, you can
talk to them about puberty asthey're going through puberty like
you're going to. Men are goingto start to see you as older than
you are, and that can feelreally uncomfortable. And they might
make comments to you, andthat's not your fault. And here are
some ways that you can respondto that. Right. And I have a whole
(21:54):
thing in the book about how werespond to catcalling, who we can
talk to about harassment, howto manage your child has been harassed
or assaulted.
So taking all of that intoconsideration, then how would you
say that, you know, in theworld that we live in, that often
praises, as you mentioned,girls for being nice and quiet and
(22:15):
cooperative, how can parentsthen go about raising daughters who
feel safe, being bold,assertive, and in some cases, even
angry?
Yeah, I mean, I think itstarts at home, Right. You bring
up anger. I think, you know,there's a chapter in the book on
(22:36):
healthy entitlement and thesort of five voices that we should
cultivate in our kids. And oneof those is a voice of resistance.
Right. So that would be theanger voice. Right. We tend to shut
girls down when they're angry.Right. And I'm not saying we let
our kids walk all over us orbe rude to us, but there are very
(23:00):
specific ways that we. We canhear girls anger and validate it
and let them know that we canhandle it, and so they are able to
take that out into the worldmore easily. We can also talk to
(23:20):
them about what happens whenthey do take it out in the world.
Right. For instance, there wasa time early on when I noticed that
my son was interrupting mydaughter a lot. Right. He's a very
outspoken kid. She, at thetime, was very soft spoken. And so
I would intervene and I'd say,gabby, honey, I want to hear what
you have to say. It's reallyimportant. And it's okay to say that
(23:43):
you're being interrupted andto stick up for yourself or to stand
up for yourself. Right. And tomy son, you know, it's very sensitive
because you don't want toshame your son in any way, but you
can say in front of yourdaughter, you know, girls in this
culture get interrupted a lotmore than boys. So we have to be
(24:05):
really careful that we're notinterrupting people who have less
of a voice than us, and wewant to make room for it. So to answer
your question, I would also. Ihave also Said on occasion to my
daughter, there are timeswhere you will stand up for yourself
and say, I'm speaking oryou're interrupting me, please let
me finish. Where people willsee that as aggressive because you're
(24:28):
a girl. If a boy did the samething, it would be, it would be considered
normal. And they'd say, oh,sorry, you might not get that, but
you need to know that isn'tyou. That is the culture. Right?
You are not broken. Theculture is broken. And we are all
trying to fix the culturetogether. So you're giving them,
you're sort of balancing thedarkness with hope all the time.
(24:52):
And that's certainly veryimportant to keep in mind for parents,
especially Dr. Finkelstein.I'm curious as to how resilience
differs from perfectionismwhen we talk about girls specifically,
because as we all know,there's a certain amount of pressure,
let's say, from a variety ofsources specifically targeting girls,
(25:13):
it would seem to be perfect.So how does that differ and how can
girls learn to sort of acceptor live with that discomfort and
setbacks as they continue totry to move forward?
Yeah, such a great question. Ithink that I would almost say that
(25:36):
perfectionism and resilienceare opposites, right? You have to
understand that you're humanand you're flawed and you're going
to make mistakes and you'regoing to have one eyebrow that's
unruly compared to the otherone in order to be self accepting
(25:56):
and resilient in the world of,of, you know, that has constant ups,
ups and downs. So that, youknow, also makes me think of, you
know, the idea that we raisegirls to be liked rather than to
be respected or to feel likethey need to be liked rather than
(26:18):
respected. Right? Because ifyou're trying to be liked, you're
trying to be perfect, you'retrying to be what everybody El wants
you to be, right? And soyou're putting their comfort and
their needs above your owncomfort and needs. And so, you know,
if you can sort of say, I amgoing to hold on to who I am, I am
(26:42):
going to speak my mind, I amgoing to accept that, you know, I
find my nose a little too big,whatever it is, right? You're, you're
much more likely to garnerrespect. And you know what I, what
I tell girls is you might giveup parts of yourself and be liked,
(27:05):
but you're not going to gainrespect. But most times when you're
able to hold on to yourselfand gain respect, right? And be proud
of who you are and Be proud ofyour accomplishments. There's a good
chance you're also going to beliked. Right? And I think we want
to get that across. I think wewant to start raising our girls to,
(27:27):
to expect respect.
In that same vein, then howwould you suggest that we teach girls
as parents to recognize genderbias without making them feel discouraged
or disempowered by it?
How we help parents recognizeit or help we help the girls recognize
(27:48):
it?
How do parents teach theirgirls to recognize gender bias?
You know, again, I think it'sin those direct and indirect ways.
It's in those teachablemoments. It's admitting when you
realize that you've beenasking your son to take out the garbage
and not your daughter. Right?Like we need our girls to learn that
(28:10):
they are physically capableand as well. Right. So you say, huh?
I wonder why I've been. Imean, it's so silly. I've been. I
think I've been asking Harryto take out the garbage and mow the
lawn because that's just sortof what boys have done. But that's
so silly. I mean, we'reperfectly capable of doing that.
(28:32):
And I think it's importantthat you learn all the skills, just
like Harry needs to learn towash the dishes. And, you know, they're
just all of these ways that,you know, it's one of the reasons
why I wrote the book, so thatparents could really tune into their
biases that are veryunconscious. Because once you make
them conscious, you're muchmore able to own them and do things
(28:52):
differently. One of thethings, one of the unconscious biases
is language. We tend to useemotion focused language with our
daughters starting from birth.We use proud. I mean, I'm sorry,
we use words like excited andsad and love. Emotion focused words.
(29:13):
And they get really good atrecognizing emotions. With our sons,
we recognize, we useachievement oriented language like
proud win best. And so theycome to understand that competition
is okay and it's okay to wantto win. Right? And of course, kids
need to have both of those.Right? You need to be good with emotions
(29:36):
because you want to be able toknow who you are and you want to
have good relationships andyou need to be able to own your ambitions
and your industriousnessbecause that's another. That's a
part of our humanity that weall have. So we're trying to sort
of develop the full, the fullkid, not just these parts that have
(29:57):
be. Have been consideredtraditionally feminine or traditionally
masculine.
So then if you could offerparents one mindset, shift those
parents raising Girls today,What would that be?
Oh, that's such a goodquestion. You know, I really want
(30:22):
them, I really want them tohelp their children understand that
the culture is broken. Theyare not broken. Right. So that if
the, so that if the girls aretreated as whole and serious human
beings at home, it will feelwrong when they're not treated that
way out in the world andthey'll be more likely to protect
(30:44):
themselves.
You mentioned the home and youare the mother of a teen boy and
a teen girl. Curious as tohow, you know, your clinical work,
your professional work, theresearch you did for your various
books, how has that influencedhow you parent and how you parent,
maybe intentionally as a result?
(31:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think divinginto the research and you know, I
had a hunch it was, it wasvery ubiquitous. But diving into
the research, I, I was able tore, really take home just how serious
a problem it is and how itreally does affect the mental health
(31:32):
of, of girls. And you know, Idon't, I don't think that sexism
is good for boys either. Andwe can get into that. But so I think
what it made, it just made me,which is, you know, what I was hoping
for, for the book, but itreally had a huge effect on me was
just the awareness it broughtto me in every interaction of, of
(31:56):
that, you know, this is theair that, that kids are breathing
in that girls are lesser. Andyou know, it has such serious effects,
not just, you know, on theways you would think it has on body
image and eating disorders andyou know, sexual dysfunction, but
(32:17):
it also has like realramifications for our cognitive abilities.
Right? So take beauty culture,right, and the focus on girls appearance
which like, I can't believe wehaven't gotten to that yet. But you
know that I haven't brought itup yet. But there is so much focus
(32:38):
on girls appearance thatglobally girls believe their most
important asset is theirappearance. Right? Like, how sad
is that? So their appearanceis focused on at the expense of all
of these incredible qualitiesabout themselves. But what happens
is when there's so much focuson a girl's appearance, she starts
to focus on her appearance,right? So not only is she objectified,
(33:01):
but she starts to selfobjectify, right? And what the research
teaches us is that the moregirls self objectify, the more they
have getting into flow states.So it's gets in the way of their,
of their ability to accomplishtheir goals, right? Because you need
(33:26):
to be in flow states for that.And so I always say to parents, it's
worth, you know, it's worthlike as you, as your child is leaving
the house and you want to saydarn, you look so cute. Right? Think
twice about that because ifthey're on their way to school, that
is interrupting their mentalcapacity and it shows to have an
(33:47):
effect on how well their, onhow well they're going to do in that
class or in on that test theyhave. Right. And it's worth wondering
how often our daughters bodiesare commented on right before they're
going into a piano recital oryou know, or a math test or whatever.
We only have about a minuteleft. But I did want to ask you,
(34:09):
Dr. Finkelstein, what do youhope that sexism and sensibility
will empower parents anddaughters to do differently in the
world?
I hope that parents will startpaying attention to how much emphasis
that they're putting on theirdaughter's appearances, how much
(34:31):
emphasis everybody else isputting on their daughter's appearances.
I hope they will become moreaware of the very subtle ways that
they are bringing gender biasinto their homes and be able to change
that because it really doesmake a difference. And finally, I
(34:58):
will say that I want them tofeel empowered to help their daughters
recognize in advance whatthey're going to encounter in the
world and then know what to dodo once they've encountered it.
We've only just scratched thesurface on this topic, certainly.
(35:21):
But thank you so much, Dr.Joanne Finkelstein for sharing your
thoughts, your perspective.Our award winning author, clinical
psychologist, the book iscalled Sexism and Sensibility. Really
appreciate your perspectivetoday. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Leanne. Tolearn more about today's podcast,
guest and topic, as well asother parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
How do you raise strong, selfassured girls in a world still shaped
by sexism? Welcome to WhereParents Talk. My name is Leanne Castellino.
Our guest today is a clinicalpsychologist and an award winning
author. Dr. Joanne Finkelsteinruns a clinical practice for adolescents
(00:46):
and families with a particularfocus on raising girls against the
backdrop of gender bias,mental health and social justice.
Her blog appears in PsychologyToday and her work has been featured
in the New York Times, theAtlantic, Oprah Daily and the Harvard
Business Review. Dr.Finkelstein is also a mother of two
(01:07):
teens. Her latest book iscalled Sexism and Raising Empowered,
Resilient Girls in the ModernWorld. She joins us today from Chicago.
Thank you so much for being here.
I'm so glad to be here.
Obviously a timely andrelevant topic for the times we live
in. I wanted to start byasking you, Dr. Finkelstein, what
(01:29):
did you feel was missing fromthe conversation that inspired you
to want to write this book?
Yeah, that's a great question.I feel like we understand most parents,
most people understand thatthere is sexism in the world, there
is misogyny. What I think thatthey're missing sometimes is just
(01:53):
how ubiquitous it is and howour daughters are forming their self
esteem against, you know, oragainst within this whole system.
Right. It's not many of usthink like, you know, we love our
daughters, we're raising ourdaughters up and yes, they are going
to hit these, you know,unpleasant, discreet incidents now
(02:17):
and again. But really theirentire sense of self and their sense
of who they can be and whothey are in the world is being fed
by, you know, a gender biasedsociety. And so I really wanted to
lay out exactly what andexactly what girls are experiencing
(02:39):
and how it and how we canfight back against it because we
really can as parents.
So let's unpack that a littlebit. You've got your clinical practice,
you've been at that for over20 years and then you've got the
various books that you'vewritten. So, you know, let's talk
about what strikes you mostabout the current trends. And certainly
(03:03):
the topic of girls and womenhas gained particular attention in
the last handful of years. Sowhat are you noticing with those,
that lens that you have on it?
What was the question?
What are you noticing in termsof the lens that you have on this
topic about what's going on insociety today.
(03:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think it'sgetting worse, right. Like we sort
of be. When my book first cameout, you know, as I was writing this
book, there was a sense ofthings, the tide changing, Right.
And rather than the progresswe were seeing, we were seeing a
(03:44):
lot of backlash, right. As Iwas writing it, Roe v. Wade got dismantled.
And then when my book came outIn September of 2024, sexism and
sensibility, it was consideredan important book. After the election,
it suddenly became. Peoplestarted calling it timely and crucial.
(04:07):
Right. Because we were seeingmore women's rights being stripped.
And so what we're seeing nowis the rise of what people are calling
the woman's sphere. Right.It's sort of a play on the term of
the manosphere, Right. Whichis, you know, for listeners that
(04:31):
don't totally know what themanosphere is. Right. It's. It's
men and young men who havebeen on the Internet sort of recruiting
boys and teenagers and youngadults to believe that the loneliness
that they're feeling, and theyare feeling loneliness and sadness
(04:52):
and depression, but that it'sthe fault of a woman. Right. That
it's women and feminism. Thatwomen and feminism have sort of taken
away their rights and theirrights to be in a relationship in
the way they want to be in arelationship. And so it's blaming
that. So now the counterpartto that is the woman's fear. And
(05:15):
I think it is a new thing thatparents are going to have to sort
of keep their eye on if theywant to raise progressive girls who
have all the same rights asboys and men. And that is, you know,
a lot of people know abouttrad wife content. It can be very
beautiful content and it canbe very alluring. And then there
(05:39):
are, you know, people likeBrett Coop Cooper and Candace Owens
who are really talking aboutthis sort of gender essentialist
view that we are made to be inthe home, that we are the better
caregivers, that something iswrong with us if we want to choose
(05:59):
a career or to sit in somehorrifying cubicle over taking care
of our children. It is thisway of convincing girls that life
is hard because it is right.They don't have to be convinced of
that or young women, but thatthe answer lies in this sort of beautiful
(06:21):
glossed overview that thesepeople in EV magazine and all of
these sort of conservativemagazines that are popping up to
convince our daughters thatthey don't want more and they shouldn't
want more.
So interesting. You talk aboutthe shifting societal tides as you
were writing this book, and Iwonder, you know, what kind of approach
(06:45):
did you use on this massivetopic as it's shifting, as it's evolving
into this timely and relevantspace that we're in? When you decided
to write it, what was your approach?
You know, I wrote it as atimeless book. Right. I did not predict
(07:05):
we'd be where we are now. Imean, I, of course, worried about
it, and I understand thatwhere there's progress, there's backlash.
But I do think it's a reallytimeless book. I mean, I hope it
will. It will run its courseand we won't need it in the future.
But I think that the approachI took was really looking at the
(07:25):
subtle sexism. Right. Likesexual harassment. Sexual assault
was in the news, and there'scertainly a big chapter on that.
But I was more interested inhelping parents understand the subtle
messages that girls aregetting and also the subtle messages
that parents are giving.Right. Without realizing it, even
(07:47):
the most progressive parentshave, including myself, including
people who write books aboutthis, have implicit biases that we're
passing on to our daughters.And so I took the approach of let's
really scrutinize who we are,who our culture is, so that we can
raise our daughters in waysthat make them feel good about themselves
(08:11):
and good about who they wantto be. And that could be anybody.
Right. I'm not anti staying athome with your children, but just
really focusing in on who youwant to be as opposed to who the
culture tells you you should be.
Anything in your research thatparticularly struck you as you set
out to write this book?
(08:31):
Oh, so many things. You know,one thing that I like to highlight,
because it's sort of. It'ssort of shocking to parents, but,
you know, we are, as parents,two and a half times more likely
to Google, is my son gifted?Than is my daughter gifted? And for
(08:53):
her, we're twice as likely toGoogle, is my daughter overweight?
Right. So it's not. It's notconscious. Right? We don't. If you
asked, we'd say, no, mydaughter's just as smart as my son.
But on some level, we don'tbelieve girls are as smart as boys,
and we don't believe. Andthere's research to back that up,
(09:13):
and we don't believe that itmatters as much.
Interesting. So then, Dr.Finkelstein, what would you say are
some of the commonmisconceptions that parents have
about raising confident,resilient girls today?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion. Okay. So I think that they
(09:39):
believe they're raising theirgirls to be as entitled as boys.
Right? And when we talk aboutentitlement, we usually think of
it as a bad thing. Right? Weusually think of it as somebody who
wants too much. But over andover, I see girls in my practice
(10:00):
who aren't entitled enough.Right. Who lack a healthy sense of
entitlement. And here's what Ifound when I dug into the research,
right? Girls believe that theydeserve less than boys. Right. And
so you were asking aboutresearch. One study looking at this
phenomenon discovered that itstarts as early as third grade, right?
(10:21):
So they found that when fourto nine year olds were given the
opportunity to negotiate withan adult for their favorite stickers,
the older girls, like thethird graders, asked for fewer stickers
than the boys when theynegotiated with a male. This reflects
the same gender gap innegotiation we see in adults. When
(10:43):
women don't negotiate theirfirst salary, and research shows
that they often don't, iftheir boss is male, they will lose
approximately half a milliondollars during their careers. We
have to be asking ourselves,what lessons are we teaching girls
unconsciously or directly,that lead them to believe they deserve
laughs, especially with regardto speaking up, respect and money,
(11:08):
right? So when it comes tospeaking up, we interrupt them. Right?
Research shows girls and womenare interrupted far more than boys
and men when it comes torespect. We teach them that being
liked is more important thanbeing respected. So what do girls
do? They try to be agreeableeven when they don't feel that way.
(11:28):
They prioritize other people'sneeds and comfort over their own.
And then what do we teach themabout money? Well, not much, Right.
We don't talk to girls nearlyas much about money as we do with
boys. And if that isn't enoughto convince you that the scales are
tipped in favor of boys,listen to this. Research shows we
(11:51):
pay boys shockingly moreallowance for chores and we save
more for our son's college.Right. So we are implicitly telling
girls money is a man's domain.And I've got a million more examples
for you about, you know, aboutthese double standards that we hold
without realizing it.
(12:12):
On that note, and you alludedto it earlier, are there any other
examples that come to mindwhen you talk about subtle things
that parents may be doingunintentionally, intentionally or
intentionally that, you know,continues to sort of exacerbate the
very issue that many of themare trying to address?
(12:33):
Yeah, like I said, right. Eventhe most progressive Adults aren't
immune to bias thinking. So,you know, I had a woman recently
write, write to me and emailme after she. Or maybe she was in
the middle of reading thebook, and she said, oh, my God, I
can't believe this. I'm thisprogressive feminist parent who is
(12:55):
trying really hard to raise mydaughter and sons the same way. And
reading your book, I'mrealizing, I think I shut my daughter
down when she has strongopinions, even though my son is the
more outspoken and opinionatedone. Right? And so she went to her
(13:16):
daughter and said, I think Imight be doing this. And her daughter
start to cry from therecognition because she couldn't
articulate what her mother wasdoing, but she knew something felt
bad. Right? And so I thinkthere are these ways that we expect
girls to sort of be capital G,good, right? Listen, be patient,
(13:37):
be easy. And then when theydon't fit this notion of femininity
that was put on us, that weare caring implicitly, we shut them
down. Right. We don't listento them as well. We think they're
being kind of aggressive. So Ithink that's a big one that we carry
in. We just really expect themto be nice.
(14:00):
So how does a parent go aboutunpacking that? Right. Because there's
so much that goes into whatyou've just described, from generational
differences to how the parentswere raised to, you know, social
media influences, societaldiscourse. I mean, it's a long list.
You're the expert, you're theresearcher who has, you know, taken
(14:21):
all of these things intoconsideration. Presumably, you know,
what is the. What is astarting point for a parent to be
more intentional about howthey're trying to raise strong, resilient
girls?
Yeah. Well, first I'll say,you know, that when girls don't feel
entitled to things like wewere talking about speaking up, being
(14:42):
treated with respect, it makesit hard for them to protect themselves.
Right. It's a very slipperyslope from gender bias and sexism
to sexual harassment andassault. So that is why I. I want
to drive this point home thatparents have to be involved in dismantling
(15:02):
these things. And the ways wedo it are. Are sort of twofold. One
is we do it directly, and oneway is we do it less directly. So
the, in. The less directapproach is the one most of us are
more comfortable with because,well, we'll get to the direct opposed,
(15:24):
but the indirect approach, itwould be like, for instance, creating
teachable moments. So you'rewatching TV with your young kid,
let's say, and you know,there's the girls, there's witches,
and they're doing magic, andit's a fun show, and it's a cool
show. And don't get me wrong,I love magic. But what the research
(15:47):
shows is that characters ontelevision who are female tend to
solve problems using magic,but male characters use stem. Right.
And their physicality. Scienceand their physicality. So that would
be something you could use asa teachable moment to say, huh? So
(16:07):
many of these shows we watchhave girls use using magic to solve
problems, which makes it seemlike real girls can't solve magic
because. Can't solve problemsbecause real girls don't have magic.
But that's silly, because weknow that girls are clever, fast
on their feet, whatever,right? So there are these ways that
you can bring it in or, youknow, you could. You could. You could
(16:33):
use a teachable moment at thedoctor's office, you know, did you
notice that the doctorinterrupted me much more than he
interrupted Daddy? That thatcould be because there's sexism that
lots of women are fightingback against, and that means lots
of women are interrupted. Butthat doesn't mean you don't have
something important to say.Right? And that's sort of the line
(16:56):
between direct and indirect.You're, like, bringing it up. But
you couldn't just be reallydirect at some point when your daughter
is picking up on stuff, whenyou've had enough, and you can say,
listen, there's this thingcalled sexism in the world, and you're
going to notice it in littleways, and you're going to notice
it in big ways. In any case, Igo into the book, I have scripts,
(17:20):
I have things that you can saythat will really help you communicate
with your daughter in a waythat doesn't rob her of the sense
that the world is fair. Thepoint is, you want to give your daughters
not too much too soon, butalso not too little, too late. And
(17:43):
so, you know, you asked mebefore why I wrote the book and what
was missing. I think what wewere finding in the culture was girl
power, right? And girl powercan be great for motivating a sense
of, you know, respect for thefemale gender. And it, you know,
and it can look like buyingthem, buying, you know, RBG paraphernalia
(18:07):
and books with strong femalecharacters. But it does not do enough
to help our girls when theyexperience real moments of gender
bias and sexism. They need thelanguage to understand what's going
on, because otherwise theyquestion their capabilities.
(18:28):
So then how should thatlanguage ideally change from Parent
to child, when that girl is atween teen or a young adult female,
you know, against the backdropof what we're seeing in terms of
the world at large, socialmedia, and all the voices that may
be countering what the parentis trying to do at home.
(18:55):
Okay, I think we can startearly, early, early with the indirect
stuff, right. Did you notice,you know, first with the media staff,
right? Like, huh, why do they.On this girl's looks? They haven't
commented on the boys at all,right? And this is actually true
(19:16):
in animated characters aswell, right, that the focus on looks
and weight is far more infemale cartoon characters than in
male. So there, you know, youcan start really early. The way I
decided with my own daughterto do it was we were watching MasterChef
Junior, and there were a lotof comments being made that felt
(19:41):
really uncomfortable to me,and it took me many seasons to say
something to her. We were kindof binge watching as a family, you
know? And, you know, the firstseason, she said, oh, I think the
girl is gonna win. I knowshe's gonna win. The second season,
she said, I really hope thisthe girl wins this time. The third
(20:03):
season, she said, girls neverwin. Right. And at that point, I
had hit my limit, and I feltlike she. That protecting her from
the idea of sexism was nolonger helpful to her and that I
needed to. That she wasbasically begging me to explain what
was happening. Right. Andbecause sexism is subtle and you
(20:25):
don't know if it's happening,you know, I. I was able to say that
to her too. I was able to say,there's this thing called sexism
going on, and you don't alwaysknow if it's happening. But here's
what I'm seeing, right? I'mseeing three male judges who are
really identifying with theboys, because that's normal. We identify
with people that look like us,right? And so they would say to the
(20:48):
boys, wow, you know, what awonderful dish. How much do you think
you'll charge for it at yourfuture restaurant? Right? They're
really thinking big for theseboys, but for the girls, they would
say, huh, what a wonderfuldish. Do you think you could do that
again, or is this a fluke?Right? And then we wonder why so
(21:12):
many women have impostersyndrome and don't. Somehow, in this
culture, we just don't believewomen are all that competent. So
I think my daughter was aroundseven when I introduced the concept.
And then as tweens and teens,I really do think it's fair Game.
I mean, you want to pick yourmoments carefully because otherwise
(21:33):
they'll shut you out, rolltheir eyes. But, you know, you can
talk to them about puberty asthey're going through puberty like
you're going to. Men are goingto start to see you as older than
you are, and that can feelreally uncomfortable. And they might
make comments to you, andthat's not your fault. And here are
some ways that you can respondto that. Right. And I have a whole
(21:54):
thing in the book about how werespond to catcalling, who we can
talk to about harassment, howto manage your child has been harassed
or assaulted.
So taking all of that intoconsideration, then how would you
say that, you know, in theworld that we live in, that often
praises, as you mentioned,girls for being nice and quiet and
(22:15):
cooperative, how can parentsthen go about raising daughters who
feel safe, being bold,assertive, and in some cases, even
angry?
Yeah, I mean, I think itstarts at home, Right. You bring
up anger. I think, you know,there's a chapter in the book on
(22:36):
healthy entitlement and thesort of five voices that we should
cultivate in our kids. And oneof those is a voice of resistance.
Right. So that would be theanger voice. Right. We tend to shut
girls down when they're angry.Right. And I'm not saying we let
our kids walk all over us orbe rude to us, but there are very
(23:00):
specific ways that we. We canhear girls anger and validate it
and let them know that we canhandle it, and so they are able to
take that out into the worldmore easily. We can also talk to
(23:20):
them about what happens whenthey do take it out in the world.
Right. For instance, there wasa time early on when I noticed that
my son was interrupting mydaughter a lot. Right. He's a very
outspoken kid. She, at thetime, was very soft spoken. And so
I would intervene and I'd say,gabby, honey, I want to hear what
you have to say. It's reallyimportant. And it's okay to say that
(23:43):
you're being interrupted andto stick up for yourself or to stand
up for yourself. Right. And tomy son, you know, it's very sensitive
because you don't want toshame your son in any way, but you
can say in front of yourdaughter, you know, girls in this
culture get interrupted a lotmore than boys. So we have to be
(24:05):
really careful that we're notinterrupting people who have less
of a voice than us, and wewant to make room for it. So to answer
your question, I would also. Ihave also Said on occasion to my
daughter, there are timeswhere you will stand up for yourself
and say, I'm speaking oryou're interrupting me, please let
me finish. Where people willsee that as aggressive because you're
(24:28):
a girl. If a boy did the samething, it would be, it would be considered
normal. And they'd say, oh,sorry, you might not get that, but
you need to know that isn'tyou. That is the culture. Right?
You are not broken. Theculture is broken. And we are all
trying to fix the culturetogether. So you're giving them,
you're sort of balancing thedarkness with hope all the time.
(24:52):
And that's certainly veryimportant to keep in mind for parents,
especially Dr. Finkelstein.I'm curious as to how resilience
differs from perfectionismwhen we talk about girls specifically,
because as we all know,there's a certain amount of pressure,
let's say, from a variety ofsources specifically targeting girls,
(25:13):
it would seem to be perfect.So how does that differ and how can
girls learn to sort of acceptor live with that discomfort and
setbacks as they continue totry to move forward?
Yeah, such a great question. Ithink that I would almost say that
(25:36):
perfectionism and resilienceare opposites, right? You have to
understand that you're humanand you're flawed and you're going
to make mistakes and you'regoing to have one eyebrow that's
unruly compared to the otherone in order to be self accepting
(25:56):
and resilient in the world of,of, you know, that has constant ups,
ups and downs. So that, youknow, also makes me think of, you
know, the idea that we raisegirls to be liked rather than to
be respected or to feel likethey need to be liked rather than
(26:18):
respected. Right? Because ifyou're trying to be liked, you're
trying to be perfect, you'retrying to be what everybody El wants
you to be, right? And soyou're putting their comfort and
their needs above your owncomfort and needs. And so, you know,
if you can sort of say, I amgoing to hold on to who I am, I am
(26:42):
going to speak my mind, I amgoing to accept that, you know, I
find my nose a little too big,whatever it is, right? You're, you're
much more likely to garnerrespect. And you know what I, what
I tell girls is you might giveup parts of yourself and be liked,
(27:05):
but you're not going to gainrespect. But most times when you're
able to hold on to yourselfand gain respect, right? And be proud
of who you are and Be proud ofyour accomplishments. There's a good
chance you're also going to beliked. Right? And I think we want
to get that across. I think wewant to start raising our girls to,
(27:27):
to expect respect.
In that same vein, then howwould you suggest that we teach girls
as parents to recognize genderbias without making them feel discouraged
or disempowered by it?
How we help parents recognizeit or help we help the girls recognize
(27:48):
it?
How do parents teach theirgirls to recognize gender bias?
You know, again, I think it'sin those direct and indirect ways.
It's in those teachablemoments. It's admitting when you
realize that you've beenasking your son to take out the garbage
and not your daughter. Right?Like we need our girls to learn that
(28:10):
they are physically capableand as well. Right. So you say, huh?
I wonder why I've been. Imean, it's so silly. I've been. I
think I've been asking Harryto take out the garbage and mow the
lawn because that's just sortof what boys have done. But that's
so silly. I mean, we'reperfectly capable of doing that.
(28:32):
And I think it's importantthat you learn all the skills, just
like Harry needs to learn towash the dishes. And, you know, they're
just all of these ways that,you know, it's one of the reasons
why I wrote the book, so thatparents could really tune into their
biases that are veryunconscious. Because once you make
them conscious, you're muchmore able to own them and do things
(28:52):
differently. One of thethings, one of the unconscious biases
is language. We tend to useemotion focused language with our
daughters starting from birth.We use proud. I mean, I'm sorry,
we use words like excited andsad and love. Emotion focused words.
(29:13):
And they get really good atrecognizing emotions. With our sons,
we recognize, we useachievement oriented language like
proud win best. And so theycome to understand that competition
is okay and it's okay to wantto win. Right? And of course, kids
need to have both of those.Right? You need to be good with emotions
(29:36):
because you want to be able toknow who you are and you want to
have good relationships andyou need to be able to own your ambitions
and your industriousnessbecause that's another. That's a
part of our humanity that weall have. So we're trying to sort
of develop the full, the fullkid, not just these parts that have
(29:57):
be. Have been consideredtraditionally feminine or traditionally
masculine.
So then if you could offerparents one mindset, shift those
parents raising Girls today,What would that be?
Oh, that's such a goodquestion. You know, I really want
(30:22):
them, I really want them tohelp their children understand that
the culture is broken. Theyare not broken. Right. So that if
the, so that if the girls aretreated as whole and serious human
beings at home, it will feelwrong when they're not treated that
way out in the world andthey'll be more likely to protect
(30:44):
themselves.
You mentioned the home and youare the mother of a teen boy and
a teen girl. Curious as tohow, you know, your clinical work,
your professional work, theresearch you did for your various
books, how has that influencedhow you parent and how you parent,
maybe intentionally as a result?
(31:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think divinginto the research and you know, I
had a hunch it was, it wasvery ubiquitous. But diving into
the research, I, I was able tore, really take home just how serious
a problem it is and how itreally does affect the mental health
(31:32):
of, of girls. And you know, Idon't, I don't think that sexism
is good for boys either. Andwe can get into that. But so I think
what it made, it just made me,which is, you know, what I was hoping
for, for the book, but itreally had a huge effect on me was
just the awareness it broughtto me in every interaction of, of
(31:56):
that, you know, this is theair that, that kids are breathing
in that girls are lesser. Andyou know, it has such serious effects,
not just, you know, on theways you would think it has on body
image and eating disorders andyou know, sexual dysfunction, but
(32:17):
it also has like realramifications for our cognitive abilities.
Right? So take beauty culture,right, and the focus on girls appearance
which like, I can't believe wehaven't gotten to that yet. But you
know that I haven't brought itup yet. But there is so much focus
(32:38):
on girls appearance thatglobally girls believe their most
important asset is theirappearance. Right? Like, how sad
is that? So their appearanceis focused on at the expense of all
of these incredible qualitiesabout themselves. But what happens
is when there's so much focuson a girl's appearance, she starts
to focus on her appearance,right? So not only is she objectified,
(33:01):
but she starts to selfobjectify, right? And what the research
teaches us is that the moregirls self objectify, the more they
have getting into flow states.So it's gets in the way of their,
of their ability to accomplishtheir goals, right? Because you need
(33:26):
to be in flow states for that.And so I always say to parents, it's
worth, you know, it's worthlike as you, as your child is leaving
the house and you want to saydarn, you look so cute. Right? Think
twice about that because ifthey're on their way to school, that
is interrupting their mentalcapacity and it shows to have an
(33:47):
effect on how well their, onhow well they're going to do in that
class or in on that test theyhave. Right. And it's worth wondering
how often our daughters bodiesare commented on right before they're
going into a piano recital oryou know, or a math test or whatever.
We only have about a minuteleft. But I did want to ask you,
(34:09):
Dr. Finkelstein, what do youhope that sexism and sensibility
will empower parents anddaughters to do differently in the
world?
I hope that parents will startpaying attention to how much emphasis
that they're putting on theirdaughter's appearances, how much
(34:31):
emphasis everybody else isputting on their daughter's appearances.
I hope they will become moreaware of the very subtle ways that
they are bringing gender biasinto their homes and be able to change
that because it really doesmake a difference. And finally, I
(34:58):
will say that I want them tofeel empowered to help their daughters
recognize in advance whatthey're going to encounter in the
world and then know what to dodo once they've encountered it.
We've only just scratched thesurface on this topic, certainly.
(35:21):
But thank you so much, Dr.Joanne Finkelstein for sharing your
thoughts, your perspective.Our award winning author, clinical
psychologist, the book iscalled Sexism and Sensibility. Really
appreciate your perspectivetoday. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Leanne. Tolearn more about today's podcast,
guest and topic, as well asother parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.
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