June 21, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino speaks with author, columnist, and mother of two Pam Lobley about planning a slow summer and teh benefits of embracing boredom.
Lobley, a former actres and comedian discusses the pressure parents feel to keep their kids constantly busy—and what happens when we stop.
She shares her personal story of parental burnout and the bold decision to give her children an “unstructured summer”—what she dubbed a “summer of rot.” What began as a break from overscheduling turned into a transformative experience for her family.
Takeaways:
- The pressure of over-scheduling can negatively affect both children's and parents' mental health, leading to increased stress and anxiety.
- Empowering children with unstructured playtime fosters independence, creativity, and problem-solving skills that are essential for their emotional health.
- In the digital age, the influence of social media exacerbates the fear of missing out, making it crucial for parents to prioritize their children's well-being over societal expectations.
- Creating a schedule that allows for 'nothing' can help kids learn to fill their time creatively, reducing reliance on screens and adult-directed activities.
- Encouraging children to express their boredom can lead to unexpected opportunities for growth and self-discovery, which are vital for their overall development.
- Parents must remember that success is subjective; focusing on enjoying family life is just as important as academic or extracurricular achievements.
This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.
You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino. Overwhelm, over
scheduling and little downtimeare commonplace in many families
today. So what could the exactopposite look like? And what are
some of the potential benefitsfor kids and parents? Welcome to
Where Parents Talk. My name isLianne Castelino. Our guest today
(00:43):
is a writer, a columnist, anda copywriter. Pam Lobley is also
a former actress and comedianas well as an authority. Her most
recent book is called whyCan't We Just what I Did When I Realized
My Kids Were Way Too Busy. Pamis a mother of two young adults and
she joins us today from RiverEdge, New Jersey. Thank you so much
(01:05):
for making the time.
Oh, I'm so happy to be here.
You know, what a fantastictopic in terms of the relevance and
the timeliness of this. Itseems like we've been on this trajectory
as parents for some time withrespect to over scheduling and scheduling
and calendars and all of that.How would you sort of describe in
general terms where we are onthis topic today from your vantage
(01:28):
point and what you're seeing?
Well, I feel like it'ssomething we're all facing really
head on. I've noticed withamusement over the past week or so.
I've seen articles and stuffon social media about parents letting
their kids have what they'recalling a summer of rot, like kid
rotting. And it's kind of afun, ironic way of saying, hey, I'm
(01:51):
just going to let my kids, youknow, flake off and, and do nothing.
But I think it's, it might bean idea whose time have, has come.
I think maybe families, andparticularly mothers are just, we've
had enough. There's too muchscheduling, there's too much coordinating.
I mean, you feel like if youdon't return the email for the Sports
(02:14):
camp within 10 minutes, it'sgoing to be full, your kid's going
to lose their place. It'sreally, it's a lot of pressure. And
I also think that maybe we'reseeing some of the downside of that
over scheduling with our kids,our kids behavior, our kids development,
which maybe gives us thecourage to say, well, let's do it,
let's do it differently. Thenlet's try something different.
(02:35):
So you were one of those momswho felt overwhelmed. This is a little
while back. Take us throughthe moment that led up to you feeling
like something had to change.
Okay? So there were actuallytwo moments. So the first one happened
when it was in the spring,like, we're all planning our busy
summers in the spring. And Iwas really at a loss for what I was
(02:57):
going to do with my two kidsat the time, the two boys, ages 7
and 10. And I asked a friendof mine, what are you going to do
with your kids? What are youguys doing? And she was also overwhelmed,
and she was very outspoken,and she kind of snapped at me, and
she said, we're doing nothing.We're going to have a summer from
the 1950s. And we kind oflaughed, and of course, we both knew
(03:20):
it was a joke. But later Istarted thinking about that, and
I thought, well, why couldn'tI do that? Like, why not? And in
the middle of that is when thesecond moment came. I was tucking
my kids in, and they shared aroom at the time. And my older one,
Sam, started crying, like wewere having our little good nights,
(03:40):
you know, like, you do. Thattakes so long. And. And he started
crying. And I said, my gosh,what is the matter? And he said,
I never have time to justplay. This kid was 10 years old,
okay? So between his homeworkpressures, his whatever sports schedule
he had, he probably playedLittle League like, once a week.
(04:03):
I think I had him in pianolessons. So, you know, little piano
lessons. You should bepracticing whatever the things were,
all those adult activitiesthat we were signing them up for,
instead of him just goofingaround the neighborhood with his
friends. Those were not playto him. And the outlet of play that
was going to be, I'm in myroom with Legos, or I'm in the backyard
(04:25):
with a costume and a sword,and a friend comes over. All that
crazy, inventive play. Therewas no time in his schedule, and
it was really bothering him.And I felt like the worst mother
because I had no idea. Heseemed pretty happy and normal to
me. And also, everyone aroundus was doing the same thing. So that
(04:47):
really made me take a stepback and say, okay, well, he's not
happy, and I'm feeling alittle overwhelmed. What can we do
differently? And I thinkthat's what really gave me the courage
to say, all right, let's trysomething totally new.
What's really interestingabout your story, in addition to
deciding to have a summerwhere they were unscheduled, is in
(05:08):
and of itself, quite a braveand courageous idea to follow through
on. But you experienced thisback in 2008 with your sons. So we
were not talking about thisback then to the degree that we are
talking about this now. Sowhen you look back on it, like, what
was the tipping point? Was ityour son, you know, articulating
(05:31):
that to you that you said, youknow what, that's it.
I think that was the, I thinkthat was the thing that felt like
I had permission to do it,like I wanted to do it. And I talk
in the book a little bit abouthow my husband and I, you know, the
kids would come home fromschool and there'd be activities
and then I would come up withsomething for dinner that we would
all like eat hastily and runout the door to something else. And
(05:54):
then there'd be homework andthen everybody needs to take a bath
and get ready for bed and wewould just collapse at like some
say nine o' clock at night.And we would just look at each other
and say, we've got to be doingsomething wrong. This just doesn't,
I mean, it's not like we hadteenagers. Our kids were little.
How was it supposed to be sopressured all the time? So I was
(06:15):
thinking about that, but thenI think seeing directly that my kids
were not happy and when Ilooked more closely too at their
behavior, I was able to seethere was a lot of pushback, There
was a lot of whining, therewas a lot of trouble getting out
the door. There was a lot ofjust crankiness, non compliance.
And I think it's because theywere just too stressed out. And I
(06:38):
totally could see that now.But while I was in the thick of it,
again, you're going with theflow. And because you're doing what
everyone else is doing, youjust assume it's your only option.
Well, and then when you decidewhen you have that wake up call and
that tipping point and in yourmind you're like, I've got the self
awareness to make a change.You also have to have a strategy
(07:02):
and an approach, whether it'ssurvival or success or both.
Right.
What does that look like for you?
I think it looked like abalance of survival and success.
I mean, I wanted like mynumber one goal was can we just have
fun and enjoy each other? LikeI was not, I definitely was not one
(07:25):
of those moms that was worriedabout my kids falling behind. I was
sick of hearing about fallingbehind. Like they're not going to
fall behind, they're seven. Sowe don't have to worry about that.
But I was concerned, like, arewe enjoying family life? Like, I
get that it goes fast and sonot that every day is going to be
roses, but are we doing funthings? Am I getting to enjoy my
(07:47):
motherhood? Are we feelinglike we laugh every day, we have
fun every day? So that was apart of it. Like, let's get back
some of the joy into ourlives. And then also for me personally,
I really needed a break fromthe pressure and to just feel like
I'm sick of feeling like I'mnot doing it right all the time.
Like, let's all just dial itback. So I think my goal was just
(08:14):
erase the schedule and take itas it comes. And hopefully by the
end of the summer we'll feelreally rejuvenated and ready for
the school year.
So take us through what stepsyou took, Pam, to make that happen.
Like after you had thatcomment from your son, did you and
your husband talk about it?Did you come up with a plan? Did
(08:36):
you have to change your workschedules in order to accommodate
an unstructured summer withtwo young boys?
Yes, definitely. So I talkedabout with my husband and he was
fine with it. I mean, heworked out of the home all day so
it didn't necessarily affecthim as much. But for myself, yeah,
I changed. I was working. Iwas working at home, which was unusual
(08:59):
in those times because I'm afreelance writer. So I was able to
adjust my schedule likeeverybody does. I worked before they
woke up in the morning andmaybe after they went to bed, I would
let them play video games fora certain amount of time each day
while I would work and then Ihad to dial back the rest. So if
(09:19):
there was, you know,professional goals that I had, maybe
they had to wait or just takelonger. So yeah, I definitely made
some adjustments. Also wedidn't have. And this was another
kind of benefit in a way.Expensive camps and tons of classes
were not an option anyway. SoI took advantage of the resources
(09:39):
that we have here in town,which is we have a town pool which
is extremely affordable at thetime most people joined it. So that
was a great resource to go toevery day. There were a fair amount
of friends and some stay athome moms or part time moms, so we
could kind of arrange playdates and dates at the playground.
And then beyond that, honestlymy strategy was it's going to be
(10:02):
okay if they're bored, it'sgoing to be extra okay that it's
their job to figure it out.And if I have to take them with me
to errands and do that,they'll have to cope. And. And let's
See where that leads us. That.And that strategy worked pretty well.
Like I said, I had a structurewhere I worked in the morning, and
(10:24):
they were allowed to get upand watch TV or play video games.
And then at a certain time,usually it was around 10:30, 11 screens
went off. And unless it wasterrible weather, they stayed off
for better or for worse, until dinner.
So what were your son'sreactions when you told them that
this is what was going tohappen that particular summer?
(10:46):
Joy and glee. In fact. Wewould get the. Like, the stuff would
come home in the backpack. Whowants to do chess camp? Who wants
to take enrichment classes?And they would be like, no. You know,
it was like a game. No. Andthen I would throw it in the trash.
And they were so excited. Theywere just excited to do nothing and
play, honestly.
(11:06):
So take us through that. Like,when you're on that parent treadmill
of scheduling and figuring outthese activities and trying to make
sure that they're not missingout and all of these other things,
to then kind of go cold turkeyon that and dial it back is a different
headspace entirely. Did thethought that you might have been
wasting the summer for yourboys ever cross your mind? And if
(11:29):
so, how did you deal with that?
I definitely had many momentsof insecurity. You know, this happens
to all of us, especially onsocial media. You think you're doing
something right, and then yousee somebody doing it differently
or quote, unquote, better,and, like, it takes the wind out
of your sails so quickly. So,yeah, there were times when they
(11:50):
were bored and there was noone to play with because, of course,
everybody else was in theirscheduled activities, and I would
feel guilty, and I would feellike, am I taking their friends away
or was this a bad idea? Idefinitely. And honestly, there were
times that they were sick ofeach other because they had each
other to play with, and theywere pretty good playmates, but that's
(12:10):
not enough. You need friends,too. And also, there were times when
it was more work for mebecause I. It's easy. If they're
in camp all day, you don'thave to decide what to do with them,
but if they're home. So then Istarted thinking, like, how was this
fun again for me? Because I'mthe one thinking, like, okay, well,
it's raining, so we can't goto the pool, and you're sick. You
(12:32):
know, we're climbing the wallswith cabin fever, so what should
we do? Should we go to amovie? Should we try to find another
family to hang out with? SoThere still was some planning on
my part.
So then how did you getthrough those challenging moments,
which I imagine wereparticularly pronounced in the first.
First few weeks that you started?
(12:54):
Yeah, the. The first few weeksactually were easier because it was
the gloss of something new. Itwas later when it. They would. On
really boring days whenparticular. My older one would say,
is it too late to go to camp?So I, you know, I just. I just tried
(13:14):
to be creative like we do inmotherhood. Well, let me see if we
can have a project. Like, onething, I'm sure. I don't know if
this is a thing in people'stown, but curb shopping, when people
throw out stuff and you canjust put it in your car and bring
it home. And a couple of timeswe did that. I got a desk and I said
to my son, hey, let's set thisup in the basement. And we would
(13:36):
try to do projects like that.My older son did go to Boy Scout
camp for a week. That was theone thing that we kept on the schedule.
And so that was actually anice. It was good for him, and it
was good for me because I gottime with my younger son, which he
really loved. Like, the one onone was really easy after, you know,
(13:57):
after juggling that. So thatwas really nice. And then we also
went on vacation for a week,so that helped. That was a rough
week, though, when we got backfrom vacation and there was nothing
to do. That was hard. But Ican say also that they figured it
(14:17):
out. Like, the thing that wasgreat about it was to see them say,
well, let us just build afort. Let us make up a puppet show
with our stuffed animals. Letus go back in the backyard and just
invent some games. And theydid. And they were able to. I think
(14:40):
they were able to rediscovertheir own sense of autonomy. What
do I do when an adult isn'ttelling me what to do? And at first
that's thrilling. And then Ithink it got boring. And then I think
it got interesting.
Really interesting to hear yousay that, because so much of what
you've just outlined there,you know, building independence,
(15:01):
creative thinking, like all ofthese things, there's studies all
over the place on them interms of how important it is in a
child's development. And, youknow, when we're over scheduling
them, we're limiting theirexposure to these things, and we
may not realize it. So thenwhat would you say to a parent who
is caught in the throes ofthat treadmill? We talked about just
(15:24):
going and going and Going. Andwe should add that when you were
going through this socialmedia, you know, and that person
pressure wasn't as pronouncedas it is currently. So what would
you say to a parent in that circumstance?
Yeah, 100% about the socialmedia. I feel really badly for parents
now. And you know, probablythe kids see it too. They see like,
(15:47):
well, they went on vacation orhe's at this camp and the kids can
get FOMO as well. As parents,I guess I would have to say that
as hard as it is, it's reallyimportant to try to have the courage
of your convictions. And it isnice now that there's so many studies
that show it's not only okayfor them to be bored, it's really
(16:10):
beneficial for them to bebored. And I think it's also great
to see on social media so manymoms pushing back and saying it's
not my job to plan their day.I've had it. So in some ways the
social media might help alittle bit. Maybe you can find some
social media support for yourkid rot summer. But I think honestly
(16:33):
the not so pleasant answer tohere is it's hard, but you can do
it. And if you can remindyourself that you're really doing
them, you're giving them ahuge gift, really, by letting them
be bored, letting them problemsolve, Let them have those uncomfortable
moments. I mean, we had them,you had them, I had them. Growing
up. Remember how boringcertain afternoons were? And mom
(16:54):
and dad did not rush in to, tofix it. We just had to figure it
out. And maybe during thattime is when you realized, like,
gee, I really kind of likedrawing or I really, you know, like
to just lay on my back andstare at the clouds and make up stories
about them or what, whateverthose things are that you come up
with that don't reallytranslate into glowing moments on
(17:16):
social media, but they are socrucial to our mental health.
You alluded to a few of thechanges that you saw in your sons
as the summer unfolded, butI'm curious, was there anything that
in particular that you sawwith them that struck you during
that summer?
I think the, the fact thatthey were less stressed out made
(17:41):
them easier to deal with. Likeless, less behavior issues. I would
say yes, they bickered andwind. I mean, they're two boys. If
you, if anybody has two boys,you know what I'm talking about.
So that was a lot ofphysicality and that type of thing.
But in terms of objecting tome or, or like it's time to get in
the car, it's time to do yourhomework. It's time. I saw less pushback
(18:04):
from that because I think theyhad other outlets where they. They
had their own creativity andtheir own autonomy, and it made them
just more able to cope withthe pressure of whatever their pressures
were once they got back toschool. So I. And I also would say
that I. I think I trustedtheir creative impulses, their. Whatever
(18:29):
their play impulses were, andthey started to trust their own,
too. They started to learn andtrust, well, what am I interested
in? What do I like to do andwhat do I not like to do?
So, you know, it's interestingbecause we're talking about, like,
how it impacted your sons, butthen how did it impact you? And the
(18:51):
way you parented having thatunstructured summer with them around
and you having to pivot and dothings a bit differently. Like, what
did you learn about yourselfas a parent?
Well, I learned that I'm thetype of mom who really wants to enjoy
the ride, and if other thingshave to fall by the wayside so that
(19:14):
our family can. That's moreimportant to me than the getting
ahead. So that was one thing.And I also learned that it's really
important. It was important tolook at them for who they were. I
feel like before we steppedoff the treadmill, there was a lot
of conforming. Like, this iswhat you do. You put your kids in
(19:35):
this level of soccer and thenthis level of school and this type
of homework. I remember whenmy older son was in fourth grade,
they were assigning a lot ofhomework, and he couldn't do it.
And it wasn't his intellectualcapability. He just could not be
that compliant. He was goodall day in school, and then to have
to come home and sit and do anhour of homework, it was just too
(19:58):
much. And I called theteacher, like, a month in, and she
was a very experiencedteacher. I just wrote a note and
I said, he can't do this. I'msorry. We're melting down. And she
called me and she said, don'tworry, he's not ready. Whatever he
does, you record it, and he'llcome up to speed. And you know what
he did? Within six months, itwas totally fine. He just needed
(20:18):
that extra space. And so thatwhole summer taught me, like, wow,
look what happens when yougive them the space. And that really
helped me. As we got older,all through middle school and high
school, I was able to say,okay, not that for them right now,
and that's okay. They don'thave to be the same thing. That everybody
(20:42):
else is.
So then along those lines,would you say that that unstructured
summer in some ways reshapedyour definition of what successful
parenting looks like?
What a great question. Yes,yes. I think before really thinking
it through, successfulparenting looks like kind of just
(21:03):
like what we see everywhere.Oh, their kids got into this school,
or look, they're playing thatsport or wow, they're so well behaved
or whatever. The thing isthat, that we all the box we want
to check. And instead I reallystarted thinking about, well, what
is right for. For them? Whatis success? What does success mean
to them and what does it meanto our family? Because really every
(21:28):
family is different. We allhave different, slightly different,
you know, personalities andgoals. And I wanted our family to
be successful in our own way.
So you went through thisunscheduled summer in 2008, and then
your book was published in2016. Take us through what the catalyst
(21:52):
was for you to decide to writethis book about that experience.
Well, to tell you the truth,at the time I was working when I
got the idea to write thebook, I had a newspaper column in
our paper and I thought itwould be great to chronicle it over
the summer. The newspapereditors disagreed, so that didn't
(22:13):
work out. And I was stillgoing to do the summer. That was
never in doubt. But to mymind, I. I thought, I think this
is interesting. Like, I thinkthis is an interesting experiment
both from motherhood and fromfamily life. And so I thought, well,
I'm going to chronicle itanyway and maybe it'll be a book.
So it was. And. But it took mea couple years to write it. I did
(22:34):
keep a journal every day oralmost every day while the summer
was to going. Going on. And ina couple of years when I wrote the
book, that's when I was ableto, you know, really try to look
for an agent and try to get itpublished. So it was a little bit
of a journey.
So more than eight years havegone by, almost nine years at this
point. So much has changed,not the least of which was the, you
(22:56):
know, the pandemic and all ofthat. You know, when we talk about
this topic and the idea ofhaving a summer like the one you
experience when you look at ittoday, how different is that in your
mind when you think about,like, if you were going to do that
today?
Yeah, in some ways it's reallythe same, and in some ways it's different.
(23:19):
I think the biggest differenceeverybody would agree with is screens
and the presence of screens,because I was able to just turn off
the television and the videogames, they didn't have personal
devices. So that would beprobably the biggest challenge and
the biggest difference. But Ialso think on the plus side, there's
a huge awareness of how theover managing of childhood has been
(23:42):
not a good thing. And I thinkthat now if I were going to do it
again, I would probably do italmost exactly the same. But I think
I might feel more empoweredreally knowing I was just going on
my instinct. Now you have alot of research and a lot of experts
saying please let your kidsplay more. Please stop putting this
(24:06):
pressure on them. Not only isit not beneficial, it's actually
the opposite. You're takingaway opportunities from them when
you do it.
So then along those lines,what would you say are some of the
hidden costs of overscheduling kids today that perhaps
the average parent who againis on that treadmill looking, looking
at what everyone else isdoing, may not understand?
(24:29):
Well, first of all, I wouldsay maybe just stress on the family.
Like I see a lot of stuff howthe pressure on mothers is just out
of control and mothers are,you know, their mental health is
suffering. It doesn't have tobe like that. I think, I think it's
like that because everybody'strying to keep up. That's what this
over scheduling is about.We're all just trying to keep up.
We're so afraid, afraid thatour kids aren't going to get into
(24:52):
the right school and get theright job so that everything falls
into place for their life. Andbelieve me, you cannot control that
stuff. So, so I would say thatthe, the putting the enjoyment of
your family, like experiencingthe richness of family life is, is
(25:12):
really important. And, andthen the other thing is I think your
children will. You asked meabout the hidden costs. I think that
a lot of times kids cannotexpress the stress. It comes out
through their behavior. Theywant to be successful, they want
(25:33):
to please their parents, theywant to keep up with their peers.
I think sometimes if we don'tget in the way of that, if we don't
stand between them and thatschedule and them and those pressures
that they, they might havesome sort of. Maybe they have some
missed opportunities to learnindependence, maybe they end up doing
a lot of things that aren'tthat important to them, but they're
(25:55):
doing them because everybodyelse is doing them. So I would say
that the, one of the hiddencost of that is your actual child's
individuality.
Really interesting. You know,there's so many fascinating aspects
to your story. You did thiswhen nobody else really was thinking
about this or it wasn't on theradar of the average person. When
(26:17):
we talk about 2008 in anunscheduled summer 2016, you write
a book and you did this usingyour own son. So it's a social experiment
in your own home. And then youcan also measure the outcome. So
take us through. What are someof the things that you learned or
you experienced as a familythat summer that you continue to
(26:38):
carry to this day?
Well, I learned that the waythey learn and the way they grow
is going to be individual. So,for instance, I talk about in the
book how they really don'tlike reading. They were never big
on reading. I know a lot ofboys don't love to read, and there's
this idea that, wow, if youdon't love to read, boy, you're gonna
(27:00):
have a really hard time beingsuccessful in life and all. And I
watched them, the way theyplayed and how much they built with
Legos and how they inventedthings, and I thought, they're going
to be fine. Okay. They don'tlove to read books, but I see their
creativity, I see theirintelligence, I see their resourcefulness.
It helped me to not worryabout some of those aspects and to
(27:22):
trust their own process andtheir development more. And I think
that was really importantbecause when you get into middle
school and high school, thenyou really start to worry about them,
as are they keeping up, etcetera. And I think the fact that
I was able to observe them soclosely made me more comfortable
with their development going forward.
(27:44):
You talked about your sonsbeing 10 and 7 when this experiment
started and or was happeningthat summer. Now they're 27 and 25.
Do they ever talk to you aboutthat summer or have it, has it come
up ever again?
Well, it comes up a lotbecause I, you know, I do podcasts
and I talk about the book andthings like that, but I, I don't
(28:06):
think that they reallyremember it very clearly in any specific
way, particularly my youngerone who was only seven, so. But they
remember certain things thatwe did that summer. They remember
that they were free. Theyremember a lot of the silly maybe
things that we did play wise.But the other thing too is that I
(28:26):
didn't over schedule them forsubsequent summers. So I think it's
not like, oh, let's go back toover scheduling next summer. We didn't.
So it wasn't until really theywere teens and they maybe got jobs
or that they worked at a campor something, that they had a busy
summer. So that maybe one ofthe reasons that it doesn't stand
out is because from then on, Idid try to keep our summers pretty
(28:50):
lazy, for lack.
Of a better word, for parentswho are listening to or watching
this interview, who are onthat treadmill, who maybe don't have
the self awareness yet toreally pinpoint why am I always so
stressed out, tired and whyare my kids whining and all of the
rest of it? What can you offerthem as one tangible, small step
(29:10):
that they could considertaking that may lead them to an unstructured
sense summer for their childor children?
I would say the one thing youcould do, and you could do it right
now, is to just put somenothing on the calendar. So no matter
what your work schedule is orno matter what your family situation
is, there's got to be sometime on the weekend where there could
(29:33):
be nothing that there is to doand let the kids fill it. And you
may have to warn them, listen,we're going to try this. You get
every Saturday from noon to 3with absolutely nothing to do. You
can, you know, play withfriends. You fill it, you decide,
but no screens and no adultsupervised things and see how that
(29:58):
fits. See, you know, see whereit goes from there.
We live in a time where themajority of parents out there are
not in the category that youfound yourself in, which was the
unstructured summer. Whatgives you hope that where we are
today may lead people toconsidering nothing on the calendar
(30:23):
as you describe it? Do youthink we've hit a critical point
in society with the mentalhealth issues, et cetera, et cetera,
where there really is not alot of choice for many families?
I kind of hope that we havehit a critical point. Point. I kind
of hope that we, we haveturned the corner and enough quote,
(30:43):
unquote, experts are sayingdial it back for your kids. I think
that, that parents do listento experts. We're all trying so hard
to do the best we can. And soI think that now that there's enough
really knowledgeable voicessaying that, yes, I think people
will put, hopefully let themlisten. If somebody told you you
(31:04):
could get your kid intoHarvard by having an unstructured
summer, you know how manyparents would be lining up for the
unstructured summer? We justall want that guarantee that everything's
going to be great for ourkids. So I think that now that the
research is out there, I thinkpeople have some more courage doing
that. And I also hope, justmom to mom, that people step up as
(31:26):
moms and say I deserve torelax a little bit. This is too much
pressure on me, and it doesn'tneed to be that way. We should be.
My gosh, we wanted to be moms.We should be having fun.
Lots of really interestingfood for thought. Pam Lobley, author
of why Can't We Just Play?What I Did When I Realized My Kids
Were Way Too Busy. Thank youso much for your time and your insight
(31:49):
today.
Thank you. It was greattalking to you.
Same here to learn learn moreabout today's podcast, guest and
topic, as well as otherparenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.
Com.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino. Overwhelm, over
scheduling and little downtimeare commonplace in many families
today. So what could the exactopposite look like? And what are
some of the potential benefitsfor kids and parents? Welcome to
Where Parents Talk. My name isLianne Castelino. Our guest today
(00:43):
is a writer, a columnist, anda copywriter. Pam Lobley is also
a former actress and comedianas well as an authority. Her most
recent book is called whyCan't We Just what I Did When I Realized
My Kids Were Way Too Busy. Pamis a mother of two young adults and
she joins us today from RiverEdge, New Jersey. Thank you so much
(01:05):
for making the time.
Oh, I'm so happy to be here.
You know, what a fantastictopic in terms of the relevance and
the timeliness of this. Itseems like we've been on this trajectory
as parents for some time withrespect to over scheduling and scheduling
and calendars and all of that.How would you sort of describe in
general terms where we are onthis topic today from your vantage
(01:28):
point and what you're seeing?
Well, I feel like it'ssomething we're all facing really
head on. I've noticed withamusement over the past week or so.
I've seen articles and stuffon social media about parents letting
their kids have what they'recalling a summer of rot, like kid
rotting. And it's kind of afun, ironic way of saying, hey, I'm
(01:51):
just going to let my kids, youknow, flake off and, and do nothing.
But I think it's, it might bean idea whose time have, has come.
I think maybe families, andparticularly mothers are just, we've
had enough. There's too muchscheduling, there's too much coordinating.
I mean, you feel like if youdon't return the email for the Sports
(02:14):
camp within 10 minutes, it'sgoing to be full, your kid's going
to lose their place. It'sreally, it's a lot of pressure. And
I also think that maybe we'reseeing some of the downside of that
over scheduling with our kids,our kids behavior, our kids development,
which maybe gives us thecourage to say, well, let's do it,
let's do it differently. Thenlet's try something different.
(02:35):
So you were one of those momswho felt overwhelmed. This is a little
while back. Take us throughthe moment that led up to you feeling
like something had to change.
Okay? So there were actuallytwo moments. So the first one happened
when it was in the spring,like, we're all planning our busy
summers in the spring. And Iwas really at a loss for what I was
(02:57):
going to do with my two kidsat the time, the two boys, ages 7
and 10. And I asked a friendof mine, what are you going to do
with your kids? What are youguys doing? And she was also overwhelmed,
and she was very outspoken,and she kind of snapped at me, and
she said, we're doing nothing.We're going to have a summer from
the 1950s. And we kind oflaughed, and of course, we both knew
(03:20):
it was a joke. But later Istarted thinking about that, and
I thought, well, why couldn'tI do that? Like, why not? And in
the middle of that is when thesecond moment came. I was tucking
my kids in, and they shared aroom at the time. And my older one,
Sam, started crying, like wewere having our little good nights,
(03:40):
you know, like, you do. Thattakes so long. And. And he started
crying. And I said, my gosh,what is the matter? And he said,
I never have time to justplay. This kid was 10 years old,
okay? So between his homeworkpressures, his whatever sports schedule
he had, he probably playedLittle League like, once a week.
(04:03):
I think I had him in pianolessons. So, you know, little piano
lessons. You should bepracticing whatever the things were,
all those adult activitiesthat we were signing them up for,
instead of him just goofingaround the neighborhood with his
friends. Those were not playto him. And the outlet of play that
was going to be, I'm in myroom with Legos, or I'm in the backyard
(04:25):
with a costume and a sword,and a friend comes over. All that
crazy, inventive play. Therewas no time in his schedule, and
it was really bothering him.And I felt like the worst mother
because I had no idea. Heseemed pretty happy and normal to
me. And also, everyone aroundus was doing the same thing. So that
(04:47):
really made me take a stepback and say, okay, well, he's not
happy, and I'm feeling alittle overwhelmed. What can we do
differently? And I thinkthat's what really gave me the courage
to say, all right, let's trysomething totally new.
What's really interestingabout your story, in addition to
deciding to have a summerwhere they were unscheduled, is in
(05:08):
and of itself, quite a braveand courageous idea to follow through
on. But you experienced thisback in 2008 with your sons. So we
were not talking about thisback then to the degree that we are
talking about this now. Sowhen you look back on it, like, what
was the tipping point? Was ityour son, you know, articulating
(05:31):
that to you that you said, youknow what, that's it.
I think that was the, I thinkthat was the thing that felt like
I had permission to do it,like I wanted to do it. And I talk
in the book a little bit abouthow my husband and I, you know, the
kids would come home fromschool and there'd be activities
and then I would come up withsomething for dinner that we would
all like eat hastily and runout the door to something else. And
(05:54):
then there'd be homework andthen everybody needs to take a bath
and get ready for bed and wewould just collapse at like some
say nine o' clock at night.And we would just look at each other
and say, we've got to be doingsomething wrong. This just doesn't,
I mean, it's not like we hadteenagers. Our kids were little.
How was it supposed to be sopressured all the time? So I was
(06:15):
thinking about that, but thenI think seeing directly that my kids
were not happy and when Ilooked more closely too at their
behavior, I was able to seethere was a lot of pushback, There
was a lot of whining, therewas a lot of trouble getting out
the door. There was a lot ofjust crankiness, non compliance.
And I think it's because theywere just too stressed out. And I
(06:38):
totally could see that now.But while I was in the thick of it,
again, you're going with theflow. And because you're doing what
everyone else is doing, youjust assume it's your only option.
Well, and then when you decidewhen you have that wake up call and
that tipping point and in yourmind you're like, I've got the self
awareness to make a change.You also have to have a strategy
(07:02):
and an approach, whether it'ssurvival or success or both.
Right.
What does that look like for you?
I think it looked like abalance of survival and success.
I mean, I wanted like mynumber one goal was can we just have
fun and enjoy each other? LikeI was not, I definitely was not one
(07:25):
of those moms that was worriedabout my kids falling behind. I was
sick of hearing about fallingbehind. Like they're not going to
fall behind, they're seven. Sowe don't have to worry about that.
But I was concerned, like, arewe enjoying family life? Like, I
get that it goes fast and sonot that every day is going to be
roses, but are we doing funthings? Am I getting to enjoy my
(07:47):
motherhood? Are we feelinglike we laugh every day, we have
fun every day? So that was apart of it. Like, let's get back
some of the joy into ourlives. And then also for me personally,
I really needed a break fromthe pressure and to just feel like
I'm sick of feeling like I'mnot doing it right all the time.
Like, let's all just dial itback. So I think my goal was just
(08:14):
erase the schedule and take itas it comes. And hopefully by the
end of the summer we'll feelreally rejuvenated and ready for
the school year.
So take us through what stepsyou took, Pam, to make that happen.
Like after you had thatcomment from your son, did you and
your husband talk about it?Did you come up with a plan? Did
(08:36):
you have to change your workschedules in order to accommodate
an unstructured summer withtwo young boys?
Yes, definitely. So I talkedabout with my husband and he was
fine with it. I mean, heworked out of the home all day so
it didn't necessarily affecthim as much. But for myself, yeah,
I changed. I was working. Iwas working at home, which was unusual
(08:59):
in those times because I'm afreelance writer. So I was able to
adjust my schedule likeeverybody does. I worked before they
woke up in the morning andmaybe after they went to bed, I would
let them play video games fora certain amount of time each day
while I would work and then Ihad to dial back the rest. So if
(09:19):
there was, you know,professional goals that I had, maybe
they had to wait or just takelonger. So yeah, I definitely made
some adjustments. Also wedidn't have. And this was another
kind of benefit in a way.Expensive camps and tons of classes
were not an option anyway. SoI took advantage of the resources
(09:39):
that we have here in town,which is we have a town pool which
is extremely affordable at thetime most people joined it. So that
was a great resource to go toevery day. There were a fair amount
of friends and some stay athome moms or part time moms, so we
could kind of arrange playdates and dates at the playground.
And then beyond that, honestlymy strategy was it's going to be
(10:02):
okay if they're bored, it'sgoing to be extra okay that it's
their job to figure it out.And if I have to take them with me
to errands and do that,they'll have to cope. And. And let's
See where that leads us. That.And that strategy worked pretty well.
Like I said, I had a structurewhere I worked in the morning, and
(10:24):
they were allowed to get upand watch TV or play video games.
And then at a certain time,usually it was around 10:30, 11 screens
went off. And unless it wasterrible weather, they stayed off
for better or for worse, until dinner.
So what were your son'sreactions when you told them that
this is what was going tohappen that particular summer?
(10:46):
Joy and glee. In fact. Wewould get the. Like, the stuff would
come home in the backpack. Whowants to do chess camp? Who wants
to take enrichment classes?And they would be like, no. You know,
it was like a game. No. Andthen I would throw it in the trash.
And they were so excited. Theywere just excited to do nothing and
play, honestly.
(11:06):
So take us through that. Like,when you're on that parent treadmill
of scheduling and figuring outthese activities and trying to make
sure that they're not missingout and all of these other things,
to then kind of go cold turkeyon that and dial it back is a different
headspace entirely. Did thethought that you might have been
wasting the summer for yourboys ever cross your mind? And if
(11:29):
so, how did you deal with that?
I definitely had many momentsof insecurity. You know, this happens
to all of us, especially onsocial media. You think you're doing
something right, and then yousee somebody doing it differently
or quote, unquote, better,and, like, it takes the wind out
of your sails so quickly. So,yeah, there were times when they
(11:50):
were bored and there was noone to play with because, of course,
everybody else was in theirscheduled activities, and I would
feel guilty, and I would feellike, am I taking their friends away
or was this a bad idea? Idefinitely. And honestly, there were
times that they were sick ofeach other because they had each
other to play with, and theywere pretty good playmates, but that's
(12:10):
not enough. You need friends,too. And also, there were times when
it was more work for mebecause I. It's easy. If they're
in camp all day, you don'thave to decide what to do with them,
but if they're home. So then Istarted thinking, like, how was this
fun again for me? Because I'mthe one thinking, like, okay, well,
it's raining, so we can't goto the pool, and you're sick. You
(12:32):
know, we're climbing the wallswith cabin fever, so what should
we do? Should we go to amovie? Should we try to find another
family to hang out with? SoThere still was some planning on
my part.
So then how did you getthrough those challenging moments,
which I imagine wereparticularly pronounced in the first.
First few weeks that you started?
(12:54):
Yeah, the. The first few weeksactually were easier because it was
the gloss of something new. Itwas later when it. They would. On
really boring days whenparticular. My older one would say,
is it too late to go to camp?So I, you know, I just. I just tried
(13:14):
to be creative like we do inmotherhood. Well, let me see if we
can have a project. Like, onething, I'm sure. I don't know if
this is a thing in people'stown, but curb shopping, when people
throw out stuff and you canjust put it in your car and bring
it home. And a couple of timeswe did that. I got a desk and I said
to my son, hey, let's set thisup in the basement. And we would
(13:36):
try to do projects like that.My older son did go to Boy Scout
camp for a week. That was theone thing that we kept on the schedule.
And so that was actually anice. It was good for him, and it
was good for me because I gottime with my younger son, which he
really loved. Like, the one onone was really easy after, you know,
(13:57):
after juggling that. So thatwas really nice. And then we also
went on vacation for a week,so that helped. That was a rough
week, though, when we got backfrom vacation and there was nothing
to do. That was hard. But Ican say also that they figured it
(14:17):
out. Like, the thing that wasgreat about it was to see them say,
well, let us just build afort. Let us make up a puppet show
with our stuffed animals. Letus go back in the backyard and just
invent some games. And theydid. And they were able to. I think
(14:40):
they were able to rediscovertheir own sense of autonomy. What
do I do when an adult isn'ttelling me what to do? And at first
that's thrilling. And then Ithink it got boring. And then I think
it got interesting.
Really interesting to hear yousay that, because so much of what
you've just outlined there,you know, building independence,
(15:01):
creative thinking, like all ofthese things, there's studies all
over the place on them interms of how important it is in a
child's development. And, youknow, when we're over scheduling
them, we're limiting theirexposure to these things, and we
may not realize it. So thenwhat would you say to a parent who
is caught in the throes ofthat treadmill? We talked about just
(15:24):
going and going and Going. Andwe should add that when you were
going through this socialmedia, you know, and that person
pressure wasn't as pronouncedas it is currently. So what would
you say to a parent in that circumstance?
Yeah, 100% about the socialmedia. I feel really badly for parents
now. And you know, probablythe kids see it too. They see like,
(15:47):
well, they went on vacation orhe's at this camp and the kids can
get FOMO as well. As parents,I guess I would have to say that
as hard as it is, it's reallyimportant to try to have the courage
of your convictions. And it isnice now that there's so many studies
that show it's not only okayfor them to be bored, it's really
(16:10):
beneficial for them to bebored. And I think it's also great
to see on social media so manymoms pushing back and saying it's
not my job to plan their day.I've had it. So in some ways the
social media might help alittle bit. Maybe you can find some
social media support for yourkid rot summer. But I think honestly
(16:33):
the not so pleasant answer tohere is it's hard, but you can do
it. And if you can remindyourself that you're really doing
them, you're giving them ahuge gift, really, by letting them
be bored, letting them problemsolve, Let them have those uncomfortable
moments. I mean, we had them,you had them, I had them. Growing
up. Remember how boringcertain afternoons were? And mom
(16:54):
and dad did not rush in to, tofix it. We just had to figure it
out. And maybe during thattime is when you realized, like,
gee, I really kind of likedrawing or I really, you know, like
to just lay on my back andstare at the clouds and make up stories
about them or what, whateverthose things are that you come up
with that don't reallytranslate into glowing moments on
(17:16):
social media, but they are socrucial to our mental health.
You alluded to a few of thechanges that you saw in your sons
as the summer unfolded, butI'm curious, was there anything that
in particular that you sawwith them that struck you during
that summer?
I think the, the fact thatthey were less stressed out made
(17:41):
them easier to deal with. Likeless, less behavior issues. I would
say yes, they bickered andwind. I mean, they're two boys. If
you, if anybody has two boys,you know what I'm talking about.
So that was a lot ofphysicality and that type of thing.
But in terms of objecting tome or, or like it's time to get in
the car, it's time to do yourhomework. It's time. I saw less pushback
(18:04):
from that because I think theyhad other outlets where they. They
had their own creativity andtheir own autonomy, and it made them
just more able to cope withthe pressure of whatever their pressures
were once they got back toschool. So I. And I also would say
that I. I think I trustedtheir creative impulses, their. Whatever
(18:29):
their play impulses were, andthey started to trust their own,
too. They started to learn andtrust, well, what am I interested
in? What do I like to do andwhat do I not like to do?
So, you know, it's interestingbecause we're talking about, like,
how it impacted your sons, butthen how did it impact you? And the
(18:51):
way you parented having thatunstructured summer with them around
and you having to pivot and dothings a bit differently. Like, what
did you learn about yourselfas a parent?
Well, I learned that I'm thetype of mom who really wants to enjoy
the ride, and if other thingshave to fall by the wayside so that
(19:14):
our family can. That's moreimportant to me than the getting
ahead. So that was one thing.And I also learned that it's really
important. It was important tolook at them for who they were. I
feel like before we steppedoff the treadmill, there was a lot
of conforming. Like, this iswhat you do. You put your kids in
(19:35):
this level of soccer and thenthis level of school and this type
of homework. I remember whenmy older son was in fourth grade,
they were assigning a lot ofhomework, and he couldn't do it.
And it wasn't his intellectualcapability. He just could not be
that compliant. He was goodall day in school, and then to have
to come home and sit and do anhour of homework, it was just too
(19:58):
much. And I called theteacher, like, a month in, and she
was a very experiencedteacher. I just wrote a note and
I said, he can't do this. I'msorry. We're melting down. And she
called me and she said, don'tworry, he's not ready. Whatever he
does, you record it, and he'llcome up to speed. And you know what
he did? Within six months, itwas totally fine. He just needed
(20:18):
that extra space. And so thatwhole summer taught me, like, wow,
look what happens when yougive them the space. And that really
helped me. As we got older,all through middle school and high
school, I was able to say,okay, not that for them right now,
and that's okay. They don'thave to be the same thing. That everybody
(20:42):
else is.
So then along those lines,would you say that that unstructured
summer in some ways reshapedyour definition of what successful
parenting looks like?
What a great question. Yes,yes. I think before really thinking
it through, successfulparenting looks like kind of just
(21:03):
like what we see everywhere.Oh, their kids got into this school,
or look, they're playing thatsport or wow, they're so well behaved
or whatever. The thing isthat, that we all the box we want
to check. And instead I reallystarted thinking about, well, what
is right for. For them? Whatis success? What does success mean
to them and what does it meanto our family? Because really every
(21:28):
family is different. We allhave different, slightly different,
you know, personalities andgoals. And I wanted our family to
be successful in our own way.
So you went through thisunscheduled summer in 2008, and then
your book was published in2016. Take us through what the catalyst
(21:52):
was for you to decide to writethis book about that experience.
Well, to tell you the truth,at the time I was working when I
got the idea to write thebook, I had a newspaper column in
our paper and I thought itwould be great to chronicle it over
the summer. The newspapereditors disagreed, so that didn't
(22:13):
work out. And I was stillgoing to do the summer. That was
never in doubt. But to mymind, I. I thought, I think this
is interesting. Like, I thinkthis is an interesting experiment
both from motherhood and fromfamily life. And so I thought, well,
I'm going to chronicle itanyway and maybe it'll be a book.
So it was. And. But it took mea couple years to write it. I did
(22:34):
keep a journal every day oralmost every day while the summer
was to going. Going on. And ina couple of years when I wrote the
book, that's when I was ableto, you know, really try to look
for an agent and try to get itpublished. So it was a little bit
of a journey.
So more than eight years havegone by, almost nine years at this
point. So much has changed,not the least of which was the, you
(22:56):
know, the pandemic and all ofthat. You know, when we talk about
this topic and the idea ofhaving a summer like the one you
experience when you look at ittoday, how different is that in your
mind when you think about,like, if you were going to do that
today?
Yeah, in some ways it's reallythe same, and in some ways it's different.
(23:19):
I think the biggest differenceeverybody would agree with is screens
and the presence of screens,because I was able to just turn off
the television and the videogames, they didn't have personal
devices. So that would beprobably the biggest challenge and
the biggest difference. But Ialso think on the plus side, there's
a huge awareness of how theover managing of childhood has been
(23:42):
not a good thing. And I thinkthat now if I were going to do it
again, I would probably do italmost exactly the same. But I think
I might feel more empoweredreally knowing I was just going on
my instinct. Now you have alot of research and a lot of experts
saying please let your kidsplay more. Please stop putting this
(24:06):
pressure on them. Not only isit not beneficial, it's actually
the opposite. You're takingaway opportunities from them when
you do it.
So then along those lines,what would you say are some of the
hidden costs of overscheduling kids today that perhaps
the average parent who againis on that treadmill looking, looking
at what everyone else isdoing, may not understand?
(24:29):
Well, first of all, I wouldsay maybe just stress on the family.
Like I see a lot of stuff howthe pressure on mothers is just out
of control and mothers are,you know, their mental health is
suffering. It doesn't have tobe like that. I think, I think it's
like that because everybody'strying to keep up. That's what this
over scheduling is about.We're all just trying to keep up.
We're so afraid, afraid thatour kids aren't going to get into
(24:52):
the right school and get theright job so that everything falls
into place for their life. Andbelieve me, you cannot control that
stuff. So, so I would say thatthe, the putting the enjoyment of
your family, like experiencingthe richness of family life is, is
(25:12):
really important. And, andthen the other thing is I think your
children will. You asked meabout the hidden costs. I think that
a lot of times kids cannotexpress the stress. It comes out
through their behavior. Theywant to be successful, they want
(25:33):
to please their parents, theywant to keep up with their peers.
I think sometimes if we don'tget in the way of that, if we don't
stand between them and thatschedule and them and those pressures
that they, they might havesome sort of. Maybe they have some
missed opportunities to learnindependence, maybe they end up doing
a lot of things that aren'tthat important to them, but they're
(25:55):
doing them because everybodyelse is doing them. So I would say
that the, one of the hiddencost of that is your actual child's
individuality.
Really interesting. You know,there's so many fascinating aspects
to your story. You did thiswhen nobody else really was thinking
about this or it wasn't on theradar of the average person. When
(26:17):
we talk about 2008 in anunscheduled summer 2016, you write
a book and you did this usingyour own son. So it's a social experiment
in your own home. And then youcan also measure the outcome. So
take us through. What are someof the things that you learned or
you experienced as a familythat summer that you continue to
(26:38):
carry to this day?
Well, I learned that the waythey learn and the way they grow
is going to be individual. So,for instance, I talk about in the
book how they really don'tlike reading. They were never big
on reading. I know a lot ofboys don't love to read, and there's
this idea that, wow, if youdon't love to read, boy, you're gonna
(27:00):
have a really hard time beingsuccessful in life and all. And I
watched them, the way theyplayed and how much they built with
Legos and how they inventedthings, and I thought, they're going
to be fine. Okay. They don'tlove to read books, but I see their
creativity, I see theirintelligence, I see their resourcefulness.
It helped me to not worryabout some of those aspects and to
(27:22):
trust their own process andtheir development more. And I think
that was really importantbecause when you get into middle
school and high school, thenyou really start to worry about them,
as are they keeping up, etcetera. And I think the fact that
I was able to observe them soclosely made me more comfortable
with their development going forward.
(27:44):
You talked about your sonsbeing 10 and 7 when this experiment
started and or was happeningthat summer. Now they're 27 and 25.
Do they ever talk to you aboutthat summer or have it, has it come
up ever again?
Well, it comes up a lotbecause I, you know, I do podcasts
and I talk about the book andthings like that, but I, I don't
(28:06):
think that they reallyremember it very clearly in any specific
way, particularly my youngerone who was only seven, so. But they
remember certain things thatwe did that summer. They remember
that they were free. Theyremember a lot of the silly maybe
things that we did play wise.But the other thing too is that I
(28:26):
didn't over schedule them forsubsequent summers. So I think it's
not like, oh, let's go back toover scheduling next summer. We didn't.
So it wasn't until really theywere teens and they maybe got jobs
or that they worked at a campor something, that they had a busy
summer. So that maybe one ofthe reasons that it doesn't stand
out is because from then on, Idid try to keep our summers pretty
(28:50):
lazy, for lack.
Of a better word, for parentswho are listening to or watching
this interview, who are onthat treadmill, who maybe don't have
the self awareness yet toreally pinpoint why am I always so
stressed out, tired and whyare my kids whining and all of the
rest of it? What can you offerthem as one tangible, small step
(29:10):
that they could considertaking that may lead them to an unstructured
sense summer for their childor children?
I would say the one thing youcould do, and you could do it right
now, is to just put somenothing on the calendar. So no matter
what your work schedule is orno matter what your family situation
is, there's got to be sometime on the weekend where there could
(29:33):
be nothing that there is to doand let the kids fill it. And you
may have to warn them, listen,we're going to try this. You get
every Saturday from noon to 3with absolutely nothing to do. You
can, you know, play withfriends. You fill it, you decide,
but no screens and no adultsupervised things and see how that
(29:58):
fits. See, you know, see whereit goes from there.
We live in a time where themajority of parents out there are
not in the category that youfound yourself in, which was the
unstructured summer. Whatgives you hope that where we are
today may lead people toconsidering nothing on the calendar
(30:23):
as you describe it? Do youthink we've hit a critical point
in society with the mentalhealth issues, et cetera, et cetera,
where there really is not alot of choice for many families?
I kind of hope that we havehit a critical point. Point. I kind
of hope that we, we haveturned the corner and enough quote,
(30:43):
unquote, experts are sayingdial it back for your kids. I think
that, that parents do listento experts. We're all trying so hard
to do the best we can. And soI think that now that there's enough
really knowledgeable voicessaying that, yes, I think people
will put, hopefully let themlisten. If somebody told you you
(31:04):
could get your kid intoHarvard by having an unstructured
summer, you know how manyparents would be lining up for the
unstructured summer? We justall want that guarantee that everything's
going to be great for ourkids. So I think that now that the
research is out there, I thinkpeople have some more courage doing
that. And I also hope, justmom to mom, that people step up as
(31:26):
moms and say I deserve torelax a little bit. This is too much
pressure on me, and it doesn'tneed to be that way. We should be.
My gosh, we wanted to be moms.We should be having fun.
Lots of really interestingfood for thought. Pam Lobley, author
of why Can't We Just Play?What I Did When I Realized My Kids
Were Way Too Busy. Thank youso much for your time and your insight
(31:49):
today.
Thank you. It was greattalking to you.
Same here to learn learn moreabout today's podcast, guest and
topic, as well as otherparenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.
Com.
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