September 13, 2025 • 35 mins
When children leave home, parents often face a powerful mix of emotions—grief, pride, uncertainty, and even freedom.
In this episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, licensed therapist, TEDx speaker, author, and mom Molly Carroll joins host Lianne Castelino to explore the realities of the empty nest.
From the emotional challenges of letting go, to redefining identity and rediscovering purpose, Carroll shares insights, strategies, and stories that help parents navigate this life transition with compassion and confidence.
Whether you’re preparing for your child to leave, in the midst of an empty nest, or supporting someone through it, this conversation offers guidance and hope for embracing the next chapter of parenting.
Key Takeaways:
- What empty nest syndrome really means and why it impacts parents differently
- Common emotions parents experience when children leave home—grief, pride, anxiety, and freedom
- How to let go without losing your sense of self as a parent
- Practical strategies to cope with empty nest transitions and nurture your own well-being
- Why redefining your identity is an essential part of life after kids leave home
- Ways to strengthen your marriage, friendships, and personal growth in this new stage
Links referenced in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
Welcome to Where Parents Talk.My name is Lianne Castelino. Our
guest today is a licensedtherapist, a TEDx speaker, and a
life coach. Molly Carroll isalso a former teacher, a podcaster
and an author. She combinestherapeutic approaches and coaching
(00:43):
tactics to help individualsovercome adversity through personal
growth and self discovery.Molly is also a mother of two teens
and and she is looking atempty nesting happening to her in
the near future. She joins ustoday from Bend, Oregon. Thank you
so much for taking the time.
Thank you for having me,Leanne. It's an honor to be here.
(01:06):
Not quite an empty nester yet,but certainly it is a topic that
is very close to your heart.Tell us why.
You know, as a therapist, I'vebeen in private practice now and
seeing clients for almost 25years. I have approached this topic
with thousands now of parentsin this time. I've heard so many
(01:29):
different stories of being anempty nester or a bird launcher.
Now we're electing to saypeople are like, didn't reframe it.
And I had to just walk throughit and realize that, you know, it
was going to eventually happento me. And I thought because I always
had a job and I had a careerand you know, I, I got this, I've
worked with families andchildren for years. And then my son
(01:51):
went away to college last yearand felt like I had had a limb amputated.
And then it really becamepersonal because as we know, even
as therapists, we could hearthousands of stories about different
things in people's lives. Butwhen it happens to you personally
in a, in a very personal way,it's something and it shifts and
(02:11):
you have a differentrelationship with your children going
to college and the concept ofbeing an empty nester. So even though
I still have a daughter athome, I have a 17 year old daughter.
She's incredibly independentand always has and is rarely home.
So I feel like I'm in the kindof this lucid dream space of I'm
not an empty nester yet, butit kind of feels like it. So that's
(02:34):
where this kind of conceptbecame even more close to my heart
is when my son went to collegelast fall.
So was there a particularpoint either before, during or after
he went to college that reallyHit you in a specific way.
You know, I've always beensomeone that's incredibly curious
(02:57):
about life and people andaware and done kind of my own inner
work too. I've been intherapy, I went to India, I met the
Dalai Lama. I've takenworkshops with Brene Brown and Jack
Kornfield and lots of otherteachers. I read lots of books. So
I kind of thought that I hadthis in the bag, like I think where
(03:21):
I could. But I could start toslowly feel the senior year, the
last, the last game, the lastceremonies, the last picnics, you
know, that senior year you'reexhausted as a parent because there's
so many less. So I started tofeel like my body, my stomach tightening
more, you know, waking up inthe middle of the night and I'm like,
is it menopause? I'm havingsweats, is it anxiety? My kids going
(03:42):
to college, I wasn't reallysure, but it wasn't until we dropped
off my scent. My son is anathlete so we had to go early to
his college. And it of emptyand not the traditional like welcome
parents, drop off your kid inthe dorm room. It was a very untraditional
kind of drop off. But it was.Wasn't until I walked in the door
of my house and my daughterwas gone and I just was there and
(04:05):
it was quiet with my husband,who I do love. But you kind of are
looking at each other like, ohgosh, what are we going to do? Where
it really felt like death,like a grief. And it hit me as if
kind of the same feelings I'vehad to deal with. I've had a lot
(04:26):
of different sets of grief inmy life. Both my parents have passed.
I've had friends die of thatsame exact feeling of walking in
after the funeral of myparents. And I thought this is going
to be a much bigger transitionthan I allowed myself to think or
feel.
So then what would you say toparents about how they can potentially
(04:49):
honor that grief? How did yougo about it and what do you suggest
to others?
I love this concept. It'sactually 12 step. And in the 12 step
around the three A's,awareness, acceptance and action.
And I think if you don't hitall three, you're missing the process.
(05:10):
And the gift of grief we callthis, we also have this acronym called
God Gifts of death. But Iwould say gifts of grief, right?
There's gifts that comethrough this transition time. So
the first one is thatawareness piece of like don't poo
poo what you're going through.You know, lots of people are going
to say, would you rather havethem sleeping in your basement? You
know, and they make you, youknow, you can feel bad about it.
(05:31):
Like, why am I having such ahard time? Sally over there is playing
tennis every day and her andher husband are taking their trips
and they're seem so excited.Why am I feeling like I just got
putt punched in the gut? Youknow, so just the awareness around
it is real and it is here andyou are having feelings around it.
And then the second kind of isthat, that acceptance, the Buddhist
(05:52):
concept of non attachment,like accept this is where you are.
It's not. It kind of remindedme at birth. You know, you have those
moments where you're havingyour baby and you're like, oh God,
really? This is only one wayout. And I got to go for it. And
they're going to come out oneway or another. It's kind of. I felt
similar to that sort ofmetaphor of like, this is happening.
Molly, he is going to college.You can't let your emotions or the
(06:15):
parents listening, you knowwhat you're going through, affect
their experience. You gotta bevery careful. That's a very thin
line. And so just acceptanceof it is. And then action. How can
I make this a time for me withaccepting my emotions and awareness
that this is gonna happen?Around action. And we can talk about
(06:36):
that, like around identity, aparenting identity in this generation
of how we are parents and it'sdifferent than other generations.
Everything from. I just didthis this morning preparing for this
interview. I changed my screenon my phone, not to my kids, to a
beautiful setting, like of atravel. What place I want to go travel,
(06:57):
because every time I look atmy phone, I see my kids. You know,
that's a simple thing, butit's. It's for me, it's for me in
realizing that I have a lifetoo. And how do I step more into
the identity of Molly and mysoul and my life and my passions
and not just my kids?
(07:18):
You talk about a fine line.Another delicate balance in this
equation is letting your kidsgo, releasing them into that independent
world that we've beenpreparing them for as parents, at
the same time wanting to stayconnected to them.
When.
What can you suggest based onyour own experience, based on that
of your patients, that parentscan do to manage that piece?
(07:42):
I mean, I think the best thingis to remind yourself that you are
having an experience in thisand you're not alone. So what do
you need to do to deal withyour own emotions first? Because
for years I saw parents bringin their kids to work on the therapy,
therapy issues about theirkids. And some of it has to do with
the family system. Some ofthem had to do with the parents trauma,
(08:03):
some of it had to do withepigenet. You know, there were lots
of things. So I would say thefirst step, people parents can do
to let their kids really todisattach and let their kids have
the experience they need tohave is to tap into their own experience.
Where am I sad? Where am Iholding grief? Where am I having
disappointment? You know,should I spend enough time? Did I
work too hard? Was I with themenough? I missed that one soccer
(08:25):
game, you know, all thosethings just, you know, so get support.
So is that a community ofother moms? Is that therapy? Is that
nature? Is that exercise? Youknow, is that a meditation, meditation
practice or you know, findyour knitting, dancing, plays, travel.
What is it for you that'sgoing to allow yourself to remind,
(08:46):
to feel, deal with youremotions and not transfer those under
your kids. Right. Projection,we call it, on your children. The
second thing is to recognizethat they need to have their own
life. I often say yourchildren came from you, but they
are not yours. They have theirown life and they need to live their
(09:09):
own life. And if you're intouch with yourself, you know, when
you're getting your littlesticky fingers in there, you know,
the meddling, or I'm justgoing to send this text, I mean,
I just did it this morning tomy son. I'm like, oh, Molly, don't
send it. You know, or whenyou're you wanting something from
your children and you'rewanting to hear that everything's
(09:29):
okay, even though they may begoing through transition of trying
to find their people, theirroommate isn't the best. Which statistically
10%, only 10% of kids stay incontact with their roommate after
college. 90% do not. Yetthere's this whole myth of your roommate's
going to be your best friendand you're going to grow old together.
It's a myth, right? So inorder to let your kids really fly
(09:53):
and go through the highs andthe lows, check in on yourself and
then also recognize whenyou're kind of meddling in their
life and knowing that they'regoing to have their own life and
their own experience and youcan be there for that. You can like
encourage them and not enablethem, you know, let them have their
own emotions and feelings. Andwe could talk more about that, how
to do that as well too. Butyeah, that's what I would say is
(10:15):
try to, you know, work likethe oxygen mask, work on yourself
first and then pass it to your kids.
Yeah, I was just going to sayso much of what you're talking about
there is the self awareness ofthe parent. I'm curious as to what
did you discover aboutyourself as you saw yourself going
through this grieving periodas you describe it, even though you
(10:36):
have, you know, this practice,these patients, you know, all this
sort of exposure andexperience on that level with the
idea of an empty nest, whatdid you learn about yourself?
It's a really good question.You know, the other thing is I should
go back and I would say Iwasn't the parent making the peanut
butter and jelly sandwiches. Itraveled, I worked, I spoke to people,
(10:59):
companies, I, you know, Iworked part time so I was definitely
home part time with my kids.So I think that I learned how much
I loved being a mom. And ifI'm really honest, I kind of sometimes
didn't give that enough value.And if I'm really honest, and I can't
(11:21):
believe I'm admitting this onthis podcast, I sometimes judge stay
at home moms. I found myselflucky for them, you know, they got
to go to two exercises classtoday instead of one. They, you know,
they can live and not have towork and you know, I had all these
voices in my head and inreality one of the things I learned
(11:41):
once my son left for collegeand my daughter's getting ready to
leave very soon is that Ireally loved that. I loved that part
of my life. It brought me alot of joy. And the other thing I
learned about is that I overidentified with that part of my life.
I didn't think I did because Ihad this other career and I have
a lot of friends and I have abig family, but I did. My son was
(12:05):
an athlete, as I said. And Ican't believe I'm going to call myself
a soccer mom, but I was. And Ithink that when I step back now,
his life brought me more joythan my own life. My daughter's life
brings me more joy than my ownlife. And it happens very slowly.
It's so subtle. It's like,it's almost kind of like we don't
(12:28):
even know it's. I didn't evenknow it was happening. I can't say
we, I, and maybe hopefullysome people listening today can say
the same things. Like I didn'teven realize that I would move mountains
to get to my kids school playor you know, lose money to be Able
to go to that, you know,hockey match or you know, any theater
(12:50):
production or whatever you'redoing with your kids. And so it slowly
starts to happen because itbrings you so much joy. And yet at
the same time I realized I gotto this place and I'm getting to
this place. I'm still in it,if I'm really honest. I'm getting
better, but I'm still in it,this empty nesting and realizing
like, who am I? And in Jungianpsychology we call it the wounded
(13:13):
healer. My wounds is now how Iwant to help others because I'm sure
there's so many parents outthere who their kids are going to
college and they're facing thesame question in the mirror, like,
who am I now without them,what do I do? Even if I have a job,
I'm not as happy. I have alittle bit of depression, I'm scared
(13:35):
more. I don't. You know, everyquestion could be differently, but
I think I realized those twothings of one, how much I really
love being a mom and two, howmuch I over identified with being
a mom and lots of my own self.
Yeah, well, and I was justgoing to say it really forces you,
based on what you'vedescribed, to come to terms with
your own identity.
(13:55):
Yes.
Did you go through that? Youwent through that process and do
you feel now as you embark ongoing through this a second time
and let's call it sort of forreal because it will be an empty
nest in your home, do you feelbetter prepared? And what can parents
do proactively potentially toprepare for the empty nest?
(14:19):
I was thinking about thispreparing for you today. Yes. I did
over identify and I've had tolook at my identity as Molly, not
Tommy and Cora's mom. Right.And even my husband's wife or all
the identities we have is Ithought Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
And I thought about thefoundation. The first foundation
of preparing yourself for yourkids to go to college is really ask
(14:42):
yourself those questionsbefore they go or slowly start asking
them, like, who am I and whatdo I love? And if I love it, why
am I not doing it? Someoneasked me to go away for the weekend,
but I say no. Why are yousaying no? Someone asked you to join
a knitting group on Tuesdaysat 10 o'. Clock. Nope. Nope. I want
(15:03):
to make sure I'm available formy kids. I. Why are you saying no?
You've always loved knitting.Like really ask yourself that foundation
with compassion, always withcompassion, not shame. Because as
we know, shame does nothing.It's a. It's an emotion that serves
no purpose. We all have it,but it serves no lifelong purpose.
And we have all the data to,you know, research that. Brene Brown's
done all that with ourvulnerability. But it's really like
(15:26):
that first layer would belike, who am I? What do I love? The
second layer would be like,start doing those things. Start doing
them more as your kids startto drive and going through the individuation
process. We call itpsychology, where they're separating
for you in a healthy waybecause they need to. May not always
feel good. They may not alwaysbe nice to you. They may not always
want to give you a hug. Theymay not always want to be around
(15:46):
you because they're wantingto. It's like, I always think of
it as not a cutting of a cord,but more of a leash. Like those long
dog leashes. They're going.You're still tied to them, you're
connected to them, you have arelationship with them, but they're
not that close to you. Theydon't. They shouldn't be in your
realm all the time. So goingthrough those Maslow hierarchy of
needs of like, realizing thefoundation of who you are and what
(16:08):
you love, doing those things,embracing those times, recognizing
who you are outside of yourchildren and your other relationships,
including if you're inpartnership, including with your
partner. I do think when yourchildren go to college, it doesn't
mean you won't have grief. Itdoesn't mean you won't face your
identity of being a mom andsad and feeling like I did like an
(16:29):
amputee, like you lost a limb,but I think you will have a softer
place to land on what to donext. And versus kind of lost. Like,
I was more lost.
In the scope of your work andall the experience you have as a
therapist. You know, when it.When we come to talking about major
(16:50):
life milestones, do you seespecific patterns that people go
through? Empty Nesting is onemajor life milestone. There are many
others. Are there patternsthat you can pick out in terms of
what you're seeing and how canparents better prepare for some of
these patterns?
(17:11):
I definitely see patterns, andI think it's so individual. I always
think of a Venn diagram, like,we're all going through the same
thing. You're not alone. Wefeel so alone in these moments. You're
not alone, although you have adifferent experience from every single
person on this planet. Sowe're going through the same experience,
yet it will feel differently.And one of the number one tools I
(17:32):
love to teach people is whenyou wake up in the morning, you know,
one of the things you can sayto yourself, have a morning practice
of something. And a lot ofpeople talk about this, but it's
really powerful to practice itlike a muscle. It'll get stronger.
Meditation, not getting onyour phone right away, journaling,
making a cup of tea, you know,exercising, whatever it is for you.
But the other question I oftensay is get to know your nervous system.
(17:57):
And the autonomic nervoussystem is made up of the parasympathetic
and the sympathetic nervoussystem. It's in the spinal cord and
it absolutely is one of thebiggest factors of controlling our
emotions and how we react toevery situation. Right. Because the
sympathetic nervous system isour fight or flight or fix or freeze.
And it was really great whenwe had to fight a saber toothed tiger.
(18:18):
But we don't need to fight asaber tooth tiger. It could be a
phone call from your kid andthey're struggling. It could be an
email from someone. It couldbe running into someone in the grocery
store and they ask you abouthow your kid's doing and you end
up crying. Like, you'llnotice, your palms will start to
sweat, your stomach starts totighten, your eyes dilate because
you're supposed to fight orflight, fix or freeze. That is not
a conducive place to be whenyou're dealing with your emotions.
(18:41):
So recognize when you'rethere. And like a light switch, you
can instantly turn on yourparasympathetic nervous system, which
is your rest and digest. Yourdigestive system works better. Your
eyes are open. You have abroader spectrum of possibilities
of resiliency, of agency, thatyou are in control of your own life.
Rumi, the poet, has a greatquote. He says, the prison door is
(19:03):
wide open. Why are you stillinside? And when you're in your parasympathetic
nervous system, you can say toyourself, oh, my kid's having a hard
time right now. I will bethere for them. I hear you. I'm so
sorry. I love you. You can dothis. Be the bridge to resiliency
for them, and they can handlethis. That's the parasympathetic
(19:26):
nervous system. Thesympathetic nervous system is calling
the counselor, finding theirroommate, figuring out something
to do in the town that makesthem have a social thing. There's
movies tonight. There's, youknow, you're kind of in that frenzy
of chaos, so really get toknow. So what I'm seeing across the
board is when parents havesort of rituals and patterns of behavior
to be in their parasympatheticnervous system. It's not getting
(19:49):
rid of your sympatheticnervous system. We need it to function.
But it's recognizing whenyou're in your sympathetic nervous
system and turning on yourparasympathetic nervous system to
be more grounded andconnected. Because the key to, to
your children is to beconnected, not to be controlling.
For a healthy relationship,you'll have a healthy relationship
(20:09):
with your kids and across theboard, you'll. You'll have a healthy
relationship with yourself.
Are there any specific waysthat your connection to your son
has changed or evolved nowthat he is no longer living in the
same house as you?
Yes. And I'm going to behonest, both great and challenging.
(20:32):
Because we were reallyconnected. We were, we were more
connected than my daughter andI. And if she listened to this, she'd
be like, oh yeah, we are. Likemy daughter and I are close too,
but it's just a differentrelationship. She's super independent.
She kind of came out of megoing, see you later, mom. You know,
like she was been the onewho's traveled already alone and
cooks for herself. And shejust has a really strong independent
(20:52):
spirit like I did actually.And my son was a little bit worse
home. All the kids were at ourhouse. He'd say, mom, host the soccer
parties, it's okay, you know.So I would say one way that it has
been stronger is that he knowswe have that foundation and he can
always call me and I'll bethere. One way that has been more
(21:13):
intense and challenging for meis he is pushing more away. Like
several times this summer.He's like, mom, I'm a man. Like,
and he's 6 4, I'm 5 2, he's 64and like 190 pounds. He's huge. And
he would say, I got this, youknow, I don't. I didn't ask for your
opinion, you know, so I'mokay. And, and that's new. And I'm
(21:37):
trying to. Instead of hearingthose and taking it personal, hearing
that and taking it as signs ofhow to move to the next level of
our relationship with my sonand not getting mad or taking it
personal. Now, I don't alwaysdo this perfectly. There are many
times I was like, hey, wait aminute, you know, But I. But to.
(21:59):
But it has. So he's takingthat leash further and further every
year and individualindividuating even more. And as parents
we have to kind of followtheir patterning of where they're
at and trust that they havethis and that. If they want us, they'll
reach out to us, and we needto be, then we can be there for them.
(22:19):
If it works for us, too.
Molly, are there any specificmisconceptions about empty nesting
that in your practice you helpyour clients, individuals, families,
face and reframe?
I think the biggest one isthat we. We don't deserve to have
(22:40):
feelings around it, that weshouldn't be sad our kid got into
college or our kids on a gapyear, our kids started a new job
and had to move to anothercity or something, and we should
be happy about that. And. Andif you aren't happy about it, you're
being selfish. And there's somuch shame and blame around having
(23:03):
sad feelings and scaredfeelings and loss and grief around
this experience of emptynesting. And so what I always try
to do is create space for allthe feelings, because what happens
if we don't let ourselvesfeel? We numb. You go one track or
(23:24):
the other. Like you get a forkin the road. And if you don't let
yourself go that left way andfeel and cry or build a community
or go to therapy or whateveryou need to do therapy or to deal
with your emotions you'rehaving around your child and empty
nesting and looking at yourmarriage and your relationships and
even your house or your life,and you don't feel that. You go one
(23:48):
other direction and that isnumbing. You get busier, you watch
more tv, you shop, you eat,you drink. You get into the patterns
so you don't have to feel.Your phone is a big addiction. You
get on your phone, you scrollmore. And that isn't going to serve
(24:08):
the transformation that canhappen from empty nesting, because
it is a transformation. It'slike birth, it's like death. It's
one of those ritualistic,transformative times in a person's
life where they can reallygrow and thrive and survive and have
a whole other life if theydon't, if they allow themselves to
(24:33):
go through the experience andfeel it. And so what I do is I just
create the container. I createa space for it with loving compassion
and good listening skills andalso relatability as a therapist.
I'm a human, too. I'm in theroom with them. I don't try to act
like I don't have any of theseissues or any of these problems.
I'm a very relationaltherapist, even though I'm a Jungian
(24:55):
psychotherapist. And to letthem know that they're not alone.
And then from that space, wecan release and let go and shed so
that we can, you know, kind ofput on our new skin. One thing that
I thought about today when Iwas thinking about this, Leanne,
is I love the concept ofsnakes for metaphor. It's their.
(25:15):
Their sign of transformation,first of all. So if you see a snake
crossing a road, so you're intransformative period. And the other
thing is, when a snake isshedding its skin, it's blind, it
can't see, and it's reallyintense. It's not a comfortable process.
So all the parents listeningtoday, you may not know what's going
on and how am I going to getthrough this? And this is so intense.
(25:39):
But just trust. Find thattrust somewhere deep inside yourself
or your past experiences thatyou got through other challenging
times. You will get throughthis. You'll get on the other side
and you'll be a better personfor going through this transformative
process of letting your kidsfly the nest.
You know, another reallyinteresting aspect of this topic
(26:00):
of empty nests is how yourpartner, husband, spouse, wife, whomever
is responding at the same timeas you're managing your emotions
and your feelings around it.What can you say about that in terms
of how to be supportive, evenif you probably are the one who,
(26:23):
you know, may think you needmore of the support at that moment?
The fact is, moms are going toprocess this differently than dads.
Just fundamentally, how muchtime do we have? How honest can I
be? My poor husband's going tohear it all. I married an atheist
scientist, and I was born andraised Catholic, even though, you
(26:44):
know, I don't know, I'm aBuddha, like I call myself now, kind
of a Buddhist, Catholic,everything. And I'm, as you could
tell by just my personality,more emotional. I'm more motive.
So personally, I'll just sharea little bit. Yes, we went through
it very differently. He is notas affected by these sort of things.
He's happy for them, he'sproud of them, he's excited for them.
(27:07):
And what I would say isthere's two sides. It's like saying,
one, let yourself go throughwhat you're going through, and two,
try your best. Although it'sreally hard to not take it personal
that your partner is not goingthrough it the same way. And this
(27:28):
is another Beautiful part of12 Step Around we need, or the Serenity
Prayer. You know, grant me theserenity to accept the things I cannot
change, the courage to changethe things I can, and the wisdom
to know the difference. Like,you need to know the difference.
Your partner is going to gothrough it very different. And that
has nothing to do with you.Nor should you hinder yourself from
(27:48):
what you're going through, norhinder them from what they're going
through or shame them, which Ididn't always do. I would get mad
at him or you don'tunderstand. You know, we got. We
went through this and I'vecome out this other side trying to
just accept that my husband'sgoing to deal with situations differently
than I am. And it's not hisjob always to make me feel better.
It's not his job to take awaymy pain. It's my job. It's my job
(28:10):
to face my own thing. So aspartnerships, I would say, you know
what? This is going to be anew relationship. Recognize how much
you put into your kids. Themarriage probably suffered, the relationship
suffered, because in ourgeneration, we put a lot more into
our kids than our parents didand start rebuilding that like the
Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Awalk at night, date night, conversations
(28:31):
with coffee, honest truthtelling, more joy. Listen to music.
No, it's not going to be likewhen you first met. So don't have
that expectation. The datingagain and you're first in love and
then I hope I can say it'slike sex and intimacy and all that's
going to be exactly like itwas, you know, 20, 30 years ago.
It's not. So have thatacceptance of that. It's going to
(28:52):
be something new. But what doyou want to do together? Rebuild
this vision together, Maybeseparately, go for a walk and come
back together and say, whatdid you discover? What did I discover?
Let's each point out two tripswe want to do this year. And finances
may not always allow you to goto Europe four times a year, but
you could go to yourneighboring town and explore something
(29:13):
there, find a new hike, bothread a book and have a little book
club together. I mean, there'sso different types of intimacy, different
types of sex like, ordifferent, you know, try to just
mix it up so that you'rerealizing not only is your family
changing, your marriage ischanging, and it should, it should
not be the same as when yourkids are in the house. It should
(29:35):
be differently. And as a, as acollective and individual, how do
you want that to look like? Sothat's. Those are some of the suggestions
I would say to your listenersaround their partnership or their,
their marriage.
It's such an important pointand often, as you mentioned, you
know, something that we justoverlook because we are so focused
on that child for parents whoare watching or listening to this
(29:56):
interview, Molly, who maybefeel stuck, what would you suggest
is a small step that theycould take in terms of dealing with
this major life transition, inthis case, empty nesting that could
get them to the other side.
I mean, I know I'm biased, butget a therapist, get a coach, join
(30:18):
a parenting group. I mean,that's a big step because I know
it takes a lot of courage togo into therapy. It's not easy to
do the self reflective work.And so that's kind of a bigger one.
But I would say, or even justask a friend if they have a therapist
or ask a friend if they wentthrough it and have a coffee with
them. The second thing I wouldsay is, you know, I'm a writer and
(30:42):
I don't write every day and.But every time I do sit down with
pen and paper and write aboutmy emotions and do what I can't remember
her name. The Morning pages.What was her name? Julia Cameron.
Julia Cameron wrote a bookcalled the Morning Pages. And you
do your morning pages, whichis just three pages of writing, you
know, and really, really getkind of clear on what is this really
(31:04):
about for you? Because forsome people it may be grief. For
some people it may beidentity. For some people it may
be having to look at theirmarriage and it's not the marriage
they want or they needanymore. It could look like their
identity, their relationshipto their other children or to their
own parents. You know, so whatis it really that you're dealing
with? Get some clarity withcuriosity and compassion. I call
it the three Cs. Clarity,compassion and creativity. When you
(31:27):
look at any of these thingsand, and you could write about it,
I would also say, say to stepback a little bit. And I created
this thing called pack, whichstands for presence, awareness and
compassion and the body. Youknow, Bessel Von Folk wrote the book
the body keeps the score. Imean the body tells us everything.
(31:49):
If we could give it some spaceand solitude is to give yourself.
You're not going to want tobecause you're feeling really crummy.
You're not going to want to bealone and. But if you could give
yourself two minutes a day tojust get present with the body or
present with your emotions.The A of pack is awareness. Like,
okay, it looks like a brick.Oh, it looks like a. My heart's being
(32:09):
clenched. And then compassion.Bringing a warm blanket, bringing
a cup of tea, bringing a voiceof someone who spoke to you kindly
or that reminded you you gotthrough hard things in the Past.
You can get through this, too,you know, this isn't a marathon.
This isn't a sprint. Peoplealways like, it's not a sprint. It's,
you know, it's a marathon. Ieven say, it's not a marathon. This
is. My dad had a quote. Hesaid, the parent child relationship
(32:31):
ends at one moment when I'm inthe ground. Right. He was kind of
that Irish stoic. And he'sright. This isn't like, you're not
gonna have emotions aroundyour kids, especially the mothers.
We birthed them, or mostmothers birthed them. You may have
adopted them, you know, butthere's a different relationship,
I would say, there. And sojust kind of give yourself that grace
(32:54):
and space to recognize thatthis is a process. It's not something
to fix or control. It's toembrace towards serenity with community
and love and compassion foryourself and others.
We're almost out of time. But,Molly, I do want to ask you. You're
about to go through thisagain. Different circumstance, different
(33:16):
child, different. Lots ofdifferent things. Do you feel better
prepared?
Oh, my gosh. I am putting onmy backpack because I wasn't. I call
it the emotional backpack. Iam like, I changed my screensaver.
I booked a couple trips withfriends. I am looking at my work
in a different way. I'm goingto go. I'm like. I've always been
(33:36):
in private practice, but I'vealso run coaching groups for women,
and I work with companies. I'mgonna. I'm taking on more clients.
I'm doing more privatepractice work. I'm looking at my
marriage, and my husband and Iare booking more trips, and I'm giving
my daughter more space than Idid my son. If I'm really honest,
(33:57):
I'm letting her know that thisis her time. It's not about me. And
so, yes, I am. I am. I amchanging the way. And it's not easy.
It's. It's intense. And it. Icry sometimes. I wake up anxious,
sometimes. I struggle withanxiety, sometimes around this experience.
(34:21):
And because in the end,Leanne, this is what it's about.
The emptiness, why it's sohard for people is because it reminds
us of our own immortality. Itreminds us that this life we've had,
we're kind of coming to adifferent phase of it. And it's not
the phase of first havingchildren in our 20s or 30s or whatever.
Right. So there's just abigger question.
(34:42):
Yeah, we'll have to end itthere, Molly. But such a great point.
Thank you so much for yourtime and sharing your insight with
us today.
Thank you so much, Lianne. Tolearn more about today's podcast
guest and topic, as well asother parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com
sa.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
(00:21):
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
Welcome to Where Parents Talk.My name is Lianne Castelino. Our
guest today is a licensedtherapist, a TEDx speaker, and a
life coach. Molly Carroll isalso a former teacher, a podcaster
and an author. She combinestherapeutic approaches and coaching
(00:43):
tactics to help individualsovercome adversity through personal
growth and self discovery.Molly is also a mother of two teens
and and she is looking atempty nesting happening to her in
the near future. She joins ustoday from Bend, Oregon. Thank you
so much for taking the time.
Thank you for having me,Leanne. It's an honor to be here.
(01:06):
Not quite an empty nester yet,but certainly it is a topic that
is very close to your heart.Tell us why.
You know, as a therapist, I'vebeen in private practice now and
seeing clients for almost 25years. I have approached this topic
with thousands now of parentsin this time. I've heard so many
(01:29):
different stories of being anempty nester or a bird launcher.
Now we're electing to saypeople are like, didn't reframe it.
And I had to just walk throughit and realize that, you know, it
was going to eventually happento me. And I thought because I always
had a job and I had a careerand you know, I, I got this, I've
worked with families andchildren for years. And then my son
(01:51):
went away to college last yearand felt like I had had a limb amputated.
And then it really becamepersonal because as we know, even
as therapists, we could hearthousands of stories about different
things in people's lives. Butwhen it happens to you personally
in a, in a very personal way,it's something and it shifts and
(02:11):
you have a differentrelationship with your children going
to college and the concept ofbeing an empty nester. So even though
I still have a daughter athome, I have a 17 year old daughter.
She's incredibly independentand always has and is rarely home.
So I feel like I'm in the kindof this lucid dream space of I'm
not an empty nester yet, butit kind of feels like it. So that's
(02:34):
where this kind of conceptbecame even more close to my heart
is when my son went to collegelast fall.
So was there a particularpoint either before, during or after
he went to college that reallyHit you in a specific way.
You know, I've always beensomeone that's incredibly curious
(02:57):
about life and people andaware and done kind of my own inner
work too. I've been intherapy, I went to India, I met the
Dalai Lama. I've takenworkshops with Brene Brown and Jack
Kornfield and lots of otherteachers. I read lots of books. So
I kind of thought that I hadthis in the bag, like I think where
(03:21):
I could. But I could start toslowly feel the senior year, the
last, the last game, the lastceremonies, the last picnics, you
know, that senior year you'reexhausted as a parent because there's
so many less. So I started tofeel like my body, my stomach tightening
more, you know, waking up inthe middle of the night and I'm like,
is it menopause? I'm havingsweats, is it anxiety? My kids going
(03:42):
to college, I wasn't reallysure, but it wasn't until we dropped
off my scent. My son is anathlete so we had to go early to
his college. And it of emptyand not the traditional like welcome
parents, drop off your kid inthe dorm room. It was a very untraditional
kind of drop off. But it was.Wasn't until I walked in the door
of my house and my daughterwas gone and I just was there and
(04:05):
it was quiet with my husband,who I do love. But you kind of are
looking at each other like, ohgosh, what are we going to do? Where
it really felt like death,like a grief. And it hit me as if
kind of the same feelings I'vehad to deal with. I've had a lot
(04:26):
of different sets of grief inmy life. Both my parents have passed.
I've had friends die of thatsame exact feeling of walking in
after the funeral of myparents. And I thought this is going
to be a much bigger transitionthan I allowed myself to think or
feel.
So then what would you say toparents about how they can potentially
(04:49):
honor that grief? How did yougo about it and what do you suggest
to others?
I love this concept. It'sactually 12 step. And in the 12 step
around the three A's,awareness, acceptance and action.
And I think if you don't hitall three, you're missing the process.
(05:10):
And the gift of grief we callthis, we also have this acronym called
God Gifts of death. But Iwould say gifts of grief, right?
There's gifts that comethrough this transition time. So
the first one is thatawareness piece of like don't poo
poo what you're going through.You know, lots of people are going
to say, would you rather havethem sleeping in your basement? You
know, and they make you, youknow, you can feel bad about it.
(05:31):
Like, why am I having such ahard time? Sally over there is playing
tennis every day and her andher husband are taking their trips
and they're seem so excited.Why am I feeling like I just got
putt punched in the gut? Youknow, so just the awareness around
it is real and it is here andyou are having feelings around it.
And then the second kind of isthat, that acceptance, the Buddhist
(05:52):
concept of non attachment,like accept this is where you are.
It's not. It kind of remindedme at birth. You know, you have those
moments where you're havingyour baby and you're like, oh God,
really? This is only one wayout. And I got to go for it. And
they're going to come out oneway or another. It's kind of. I felt
similar to that sort ofmetaphor of like, this is happening.
Molly, he is going to college.You can't let your emotions or the
(06:15):
parents listening, you knowwhat you're going through, affect
their experience. You gotta bevery careful. That's a very thin
line. And so just acceptanceof it is. And then action. How can
I make this a time for me withaccepting my emotions and awareness
that this is gonna happen?Around action. And we can talk about
(06:36):
that, like around identity, aparenting identity in this generation
of how we are parents and it'sdifferent than other generations.
Everything from. I just didthis this morning preparing for this
interview. I changed my screenon my phone, not to my kids, to a
beautiful setting, like of atravel. What place I want to go travel,
(06:57):
because every time I look atmy phone, I see my kids. You know,
that's a simple thing, butit's. It's for me, it's for me in
realizing that I have a lifetoo. And how do I step more into
the identity of Molly and mysoul and my life and my passions
and not just my kids?
(07:18):
You talk about a fine line.Another delicate balance in this
equation is letting your kidsgo, releasing them into that independent
world that we've beenpreparing them for as parents, at
the same time wanting to stayconnected to them.
When.
What can you suggest based onyour own experience, based on that
of your patients, that parentscan do to manage that piece?
(07:42):
I mean, I think the best thingis to remind yourself that you are
having an experience in thisand you're not alone. So what do
you need to do to deal withyour own emotions first? Because
for years I saw parents bringin their kids to work on the therapy,
therapy issues about theirkids. And some of it has to do with
the family system. Some ofthem had to do with the parents trauma,
(08:03):
some of it had to do withepigenet. You know, there were lots
of things. So I would say thefirst step, people parents can do
to let their kids really todisattach and let their kids have
the experience they need tohave is to tap into their own experience.
Where am I sad? Where am Iholding grief? Where am I having
disappointment? You know,should I spend enough time? Did I
work too hard? Was I with themenough? I missed that one soccer
(08:25):
game, you know, all thosethings just, you know, so get support.
So is that a community ofother moms? Is that therapy? Is that
nature? Is that exercise? Youknow, is that a meditation, meditation
practice or you know, findyour knitting, dancing, plays, travel.
What is it for you that'sgoing to allow yourself to remind,
(08:46):
to feel, deal with youremotions and not transfer those under
your kids. Right. Projection,we call it, on your children. The
second thing is to recognizethat they need to have their own
life. I often say yourchildren came from you, but they
are not yours. They have theirown life and they need to live their
(09:09):
own life. And if you're intouch with yourself, you know, when
you're getting your littlesticky fingers in there, you know,
the meddling, or I'm justgoing to send this text, I mean,
I just did it this morning tomy son. I'm like, oh, Molly, don't
send it. You know, or whenyou're you wanting something from
your children and you'rewanting to hear that everything's
(09:29):
okay, even though they may begoing through transition of trying
to find their people, theirroommate isn't the best. Which statistically
10%, only 10% of kids stay incontact with their roommate after
college. 90% do not. Yetthere's this whole myth of your roommate's
going to be your best friendand you're going to grow old together.
It's a myth, right? So inorder to let your kids really fly
(09:53):
and go through the highs andthe lows, check in on yourself and
then also recognize whenyou're kind of meddling in their
life and knowing that they'regoing to have their own life and
their own experience and youcan be there for that. You can like
encourage them and not enablethem, you know, let them have their
own emotions and feelings. Andwe could talk more about that, how
to do that as well too. Butyeah, that's what I would say is
(10:15):
try to, you know, work likethe oxygen mask, work on yourself
first and then pass it to your kids.
Yeah, I was just going to sayso much of what you're talking about
there is the self awareness ofthe parent. I'm curious as to what
did you discover aboutyourself as you saw yourself going
through this grieving periodas you describe it, even though you
(10:36):
have, you know, this practice,these patients, you know, all this
sort of exposure andexperience on that level with the
idea of an empty nest, whatdid you learn about yourself?
It's a really good question.You know, the other thing is I should
go back and I would say Iwasn't the parent making the peanut
butter and jelly sandwiches. Itraveled, I worked, I spoke to people,
(10:59):
companies, I, you know, Iworked part time so I was definitely
home part time with my kids.So I think that I learned how much
I loved being a mom. And ifI'm really honest, I kind of sometimes
didn't give that enough value.And if I'm really honest, and I can't
(11:21):
believe I'm admitting this onthis podcast, I sometimes judge stay
at home moms. I found myselflucky for them, you know, they got
to go to two exercises classtoday instead of one. They, you know,
they can live and not have towork and you know, I had all these
voices in my head and inreality one of the things I learned
(11:41):
once my son left for collegeand my daughter's getting ready to
leave very soon is that Ireally loved that. I loved that part
of my life. It brought me alot of joy. And the other thing I
learned about is that I overidentified with that part of my life.
I didn't think I did because Ihad this other career and I have
a lot of friends and I have abig family, but I did. My son was
(12:05):
an athlete, as I said. And Ican't believe I'm going to call myself
a soccer mom, but I was. And Ithink that when I step back now,
his life brought me more joythan my own life. My daughter's life
brings me more joy than my ownlife. And it happens very slowly.
It's so subtle. It's like,it's almost kind of like we don't
(12:28):
even know it's. I didn't evenknow it was happening. I can't say
we, I, and maybe hopefullysome people listening today can say
the same things. Like I didn'teven realize that I would move mountains
to get to my kids school playor you know, lose money to be Able
to go to that, you know,hockey match or you know, any theater
(12:50):
production or whatever you'redoing with your kids. And so it slowly
starts to happen because itbrings you so much joy. And yet at
the same time I realized I gotto this place and I'm getting to
this place. I'm still in it,if I'm really honest. I'm getting
better, but I'm still in it,this empty nesting and realizing
like, who am I? And in Jungianpsychology we call it the wounded
(13:13):
healer. My wounds is now how Iwant to help others because I'm sure
there's so many parents outthere who their kids are going to
college and they're facing thesame question in the mirror, like,
who am I now without them,what do I do? Even if I have a job,
I'm not as happy. I have alittle bit of depression, I'm scared
(13:35):
more. I don't. You know, everyquestion could be differently, but
I think I realized those twothings of one, how much I really
love being a mom and two, howmuch I over identified with being
a mom and lots of my own self.
Yeah, well, and I was justgoing to say it really forces you,
based on what you'vedescribed, to come to terms with
your own identity.
(13:55):
Yes.
Did you go through that? Youwent through that process and do
you feel now as you embark ongoing through this a second time
and let's call it sort of forreal because it will be an empty
nest in your home, do you feelbetter prepared? And what can parents
do proactively potentially toprepare for the empty nest?
(14:19):
I was thinking about thispreparing for you today. Yes. I did
over identify and I've had tolook at my identity as Molly, not
Tommy and Cora's mom. Right.And even my husband's wife or all
the identities we have is Ithought Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
And I thought about thefoundation. The first foundation
of preparing yourself for yourkids to go to college is really ask
(14:42):
yourself those questionsbefore they go or slowly start asking
them, like, who am I and whatdo I love? And if I love it, why
am I not doing it? Someoneasked me to go away for the weekend,
but I say no. Why are yousaying no? Someone asked you to join
a knitting group on Tuesdaysat 10 o'. Clock. Nope. Nope. I want
(15:03):
to make sure I'm available formy kids. I. Why are you saying no?
You've always loved knitting.Like really ask yourself that foundation
with compassion, always withcompassion, not shame. Because as
we know, shame does nothing.It's a. It's an emotion that serves
no purpose. We all have it,but it serves no lifelong purpose.
And we have all the data to,you know, research that. Brene Brown's
done all that with ourvulnerability. But it's really like
(15:26):
that first layer would belike, who am I? What do I love? The
second layer would be like,start doing those things. Start doing
them more as your kids startto drive and going through the individuation
process. We call itpsychology, where they're separating
for you in a healthy waybecause they need to. May not always
feel good. They may not alwaysbe nice to you. They may not always
want to give you a hug. Theymay not always want to be around
(15:46):
you because they're wantingto. It's like, I always think of
it as not a cutting of a cord,but more of a leash. Like those long
dog leashes. They're going.You're still tied to them, you're
connected to them, you have arelationship with them, but they're
not that close to you. Theydon't. They shouldn't be in your
realm all the time. So goingthrough those Maslow hierarchy of
needs of like, realizing thefoundation of who you are and what
(16:08):
you love, doing those things,embracing those times, recognizing
who you are outside of yourchildren and your other relationships,
including if you're inpartnership, including with your
partner. I do think when yourchildren go to college, it doesn't
mean you won't have grief. Itdoesn't mean you won't face your
identity of being a mom andsad and feeling like I did like an
(16:29):
amputee, like you lost a limb,but I think you will have a softer
place to land on what to donext. And versus kind of lost. Like,
I was more lost.
In the scope of your work andall the experience you have as a
therapist. You know, when it.When we come to talking about major
(16:50):
life milestones, do you seespecific patterns that people go
through? Empty Nesting is onemajor life milestone. There are many
others. Are there patternsthat you can pick out in terms of
what you're seeing and how canparents better prepare for some of
these patterns?
(17:11):
I definitely see patterns, andI think it's so individual. I always
think of a Venn diagram, like,we're all going through the same
thing. You're not alone. Wefeel so alone in these moments. You're
not alone, although you have adifferent experience from every single
person on this planet. Sowe're going through the same experience,
yet it will feel differently.And one of the number one tools I
(17:32):
love to teach people is whenyou wake up in the morning, you know,
one of the things you can sayto yourself, have a morning practice
of something. And a lot ofpeople talk about this, but it's
really powerful to practice itlike a muscle. It'll get stronger.
Meditation, not getting onyour phone right away, journaling,
making a cup of tea, you know,exercising, whatever it is for you.
But the other question I oftensay is get to know your nervous system.
(17:57):
And the autonomic nervoussystem is made up of the parasympathetic
and the sympathetic nervoussystem. It's in the spinal cord and
it absolutely is one of thebiggest factors of controlling our
emotions and how we react toevery situation. Right. Because the
sympathetic nervous system isour fight or flight or fix or freeze.
And it was really great whenwe had to fight a saber toothed tiger.
(18:18):
But we don't need to fight asaber tooth tiger. It could be a
phone call from your kid andthey're struggling. It could be an
email from someone. It couldbe running into someone in the grocery
store and they ask you abouthow your kid's doing and you end
up crying. Like, you'llnotice, your palms will start to
sweat, your stomach starts totighten, your eyes dilate because
you're supposed to fight orflight, fix or freeze. That is not
a conducive place to be whenyou're dealing with your emotions.
(18:41):
So recognize when you'rethere. And like a light switch, you
can instantly turn on yourparasympathetic nervous system, which
is your rest and digest. Yourdigestive system works better. Your
eyes are open. You have abroader spectrum of possibilities
of resiliency, of agency, thatyou are in control of your own life.
Rumi, the poet, has a greatquote. He says, the prison door is
(19:03):
wide open. Why are you stillinside? And when you're in your parasympathetic
nervous system, you can say toyourself, oh, my kid's having a hard
time right now. I will bethere for them. I hear you. I'm so
sorry. I love you. You can dothis. Be the bridge to resiliency
for them, and they can handlethis. That's the parasympathetic
(19:26):
nervous system. Thesympathetic nervous system is calling
the counselor, finding theirroommate, figuring out something
to do in the town that makesthem have a social thing. There's
movies tonight. There's, youknow, you're kind of in that frenzy
of chaos, so really get toknow. So what I'm seeing across the
board is when parents havesort of rituals and patterns of behavior
to be in their parasympatheticnervous system. It's not getting
(19:49):
rid of your sympatheticnervous system. We need it to function.
But it's recognizing whenyou're in your sympathetic nervous
system and turning on yourparasympathetic nervous system to
be more grounded andconnected. Because the key to, to
your children is to beconnected, not to be controlling.
For a healthy relationship,you'll have a healthy relationship
(20:09):
with your kids and across theboard, you'll. You'll have a healthy
relationship with yourself.
Are there any specific waysthat your connection to your son
has changed or evolved nowthat he is no longer living in the
same house as you?
Yes. And I'm going to behonest, both great and challenging.
(20:32):
Because we were reallyconnected. We were, we were more
connected than my daughter andI. And if she listened to this, she'd
be like, oh yeah, we are. Likemy daughter and I are close too,
but it's just a differentrelationship. She's super independent.
She kind of came out of megoing, see you later, mom. You know,
like she was been the onewho's traveled already alone and
cooks for herself. And shejust has a really strong independent
(20:52):
spirit like I did actually.And my son was a little bit worse
home. All the kids were at ourhouse. He'd say, mom, host the soccer
parties, it's okay, you know.So I would say one way that it has
been stronger is that he knowswe have that foundation and he can
always call me and I'll bethere. One way that has been more
(21:13):
intense and challenging for meis he is pushing more away. Like
several times this summer.He's like, mom, I'm a man. Like,
and he's 6 4, I'm 5 2, he's 64and like 190 pounds. He's huge. And
he would say, I got this, youknow, I don't. I didn't ask for your
opinion, you know, so I'mokay. And, and that's new. And I'm
(21:37):
trying to. Instead of hearingthose and taking it personal, hearing
that and taking it as signs ofhow to move to the next level of
our relationship with my sonand not getting mad or taking it
personal. Now, I don't alwaysdo this perfectly. There are many
times I was like, hey, wait aminute, you know, But I. But to.
(21:59):
But it has. So he's takingthat leash further and further every
year and individualindividuating even more. And as parents
we have to kind of followtheir patterning of where they're
at and trust that they havethis and that. If they want us, they'll
reach out to us, and we needto be, then we can be there for them.
(22:19):
If it works for us, too.
Molly, are there any specificmisconceptions about empty nesting
that in your practice you helpyour clients, individuals, families,
face and reframe?
I think the biggest one isthat we. We don't deserve to have
(22:40):
feelings around it, that weshouldn't be sad our kid got into
college or our kids on a gapyear, our kids started a new job
and had to move to anothercity or something, and we should
be happy about that. And. Andif you aren't happy about it, you're
being selfish. And there's somuch shame and blame around having
(23:03):
sad feelings and scaredfeelings and loss and grief around
this experience of emptynesting. And so what I always try
to do is create space for allthe feelings, because what happens
if we don't let ourselvesfeel? We numb. You go one track or
(23:24):
the other. Like you get a forkin the road. And if you don't let
yourself go that left way andfeel and cry or build a community
or go to therapy or whateveryou need to do therapy or to deal
with your emotions you'rehaving around your child and empty
nesting and looking at yourmarriage and your relationships and
even your house or your life,and you don't feel that. You go one
(23:48):
other direction and that isnumbing. You get busier, you watch
more tv, you shop, you eat,you drink. You get into the patterns
so you don't have to feel.Your phone is a big addiction. You
get on your phone, you scrollmore. And that isn't going to serve
(24:08):
the transformation that canhappen from empty nesting, because
it is a transformation. It'slike birth, it's like death. It's
one of those ritualistic,transformative times in a person's
life where they can reallygrow and thrive and survive and have
a whole other life if theydon't, if they allow themselves to
(24:33):
go through the experience andfeel it. And so what I do is I just
create the container. I createa space for it with loving compassion
and good listening skills andalso relatability as a therapist.
I'm a human, too. I'm in theroom with them. I don't try to act
like I don't have any of theseissues or any of these problems.
I'm a very relationaltherapist, even though I'm a Jungian
(24:55):
psychotherapist. And to letthem know that they're not alone.
And then from that space, wecan release and let go and shed so
that we can, you know, kind ofput on our new skin. One thing that
I thought about today when Iwas thinking about this, Leanne,
is I love the concept ofsnakes for metaphor. It's their.
(25:15):
Their sign of transformation,first of all. So if you see a snake
crossing a road, so you're intransformative period. And the other
thing is, when a snake isshedding its skin, it's blind, it
can't see, and it's reallyintense. It's not a comfortable process.
So all the parents listeningtoday, you may not know what's going
on and how am I going to getthrough this? And this is so intense.
(25:39):
But just trust. Find thattrust somewhere deep inside yourself
or your past experiences thatyou got through other challenging
times. You will get throughthis. You'll get on the other side
and you'll be a better personfor going through this transformative
process of letting your kidsfly the nest.
You know, another reallyinteresting aspect of this topic
(26:00):
of empty nests is how yourpartner, husband, spouse, wife, whomever
is responding at the same timeas you're managing your emotions
and your feelings around it.What can you say about that in terms
of how to be supportive, evenif you probably are the one who,
(26:23):
you know, may think you needmore of the support at that moment?
The fact is, moms are going toprocess this differently than dads.
Just fundamentally, how muchtime do we have? How honest can I
be? My poor husband's going tohear it all. I married an atheist
scientist, and I was born andraised Catholic, even though, you
(26:44):
know, I don't know, I'm aBuddha, like I call myself now, kind
of a Buddhist, Catholic,everything. And I'm, as you could
tell by just my personality,more emotional. I'm more motive.
So personally, I'll just sharea little bit. Yes, we went through
it very differently. He is notas affected by these sort of things.
He's happy for them, he'sproud of them, he's excited for them.
(27:07):
And what I would say isthere's two sides. It's like saying,
one, let yourself go throughwhat you're going through, and two,
try your best. Although it'sreally hard to not take it personal
that your partner is not goingthrough it the same way. And this
(27:28):
is another Beautiful part of12 Step Around we need, or the Serenity
Prayer. You know, grant me theserenity to accept the things I cannot
change, the courage to changethe things I can, and the wisdom
to know the difference. Like,you need to know the difference.
Your partner is going to gothrough it very different. And that
has nothing to do with you.Nor should you hinder yourself from
(27:48):
what you're going through, norhinder them from what they're going
through or shame them, which Ididn't always do. I would get mad
at him or you don'tunderstand. You know, we got. We
went through this and I'vecome out this other side trying to
just accept that my husband'sgoing to deal with situations differently
than I am. And it's not hisjob always to make me feel better.
It's not his job to take awaymy pain. It's my job. It's my job
(28:10):
to face my own thing. So aspartnerships, I would say, you know
what? This is going to be anew relationship. Recognize how much
you put into your kids. Themarriage probably suffered, the relationship
suffered, because in ourgeneration, we put a lot more into
our kids than our parents didand start rebuilding that like the
Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Awalk at night, date night, conversations
(28:31):
with coffee, honest truthtelling, more joy. Listen to music.
No, it's not going to be likewhen you first met. So don't have
that expectation. The datingagain and you're first in love and
then I hope I can say it'slike sex and intimacy and all that's
going to be exactly like itwas, you know, 20, 30 years ago.
It's not. So have thatacceptance of that. It's going to
(28:52):
be something new. But what doyou want to do together? Rebuild
this vision together, Maybeseparately, go for a walk and come
back together and say, whatdid you discover? What did I discover?
Let's each point out two tripswe want to do this year. And finances
may not always allow you to goto Europe four times a year, but
you could go to yourneighboring town and explore something
(29:13):
there, find a new hike, bothread a book and have a little book
club together. I mean, there'sso different types of intimacy, different
types of sex like, ordifferent, you know, try to just
mix it up so that you'rerealizing not only is your family
changing, your marriage ischanging, and it should, it should
not be the same as when yourkids are in the house. It should
(29:35):
be differently. And as a, as acollective and individual, how do
you want that to look like? Sothat's. Those are some of the suggestions
I would say to your listenersaround their partnership or their,
their marriage.
It's such an important pointand often, as you mentioned, you
know, something that we justoverlook because we are so focused
on that child for parents whoare watching or listening to this
(29:56):
interview, Molly, who maybefeel stuck, what would you suggest
is a small step that theycould take in terms of dealing with
this major life transition, inthis case, empty nesting that could
get them to the other side.
I mean, I know I'm biased, butget a therapist, get a coach, join
(30:18):
a parenting group. I mean,that's a big step because I know
it takes a lot of courage togo into therapy. It's not easy to
do the self reflective work.And so that's kind of a bigger one.
But I would say, or even justask a friend if they have a therapist
or ask a friend if they wentthrough it and have a coffee with
them. The second thing I wouldsay is, you know, I'm a writer and
(30:42):
I don't write every day and.But every time I do sit down with
pen and paper and write aboutmy emotions and do what I can't remember
her name. The Morning pages.What was her name? Julia Cameron.
Julia Cameron wrote a bookcalled the Morning Pages. And you
do your morning pages, whichis just three pages of writing, you
know, and really, really getkind of clear on what is this really
(31:04):
about for you? Because forsome people it may be grief. For
some people it may beidentity. For some people it may
be having to look at theirmarriage and it's not the marriage
they want or they needanymore. It could look like their
identity, their relationshipto their other children or to their
own parents. You know, so whatis it really that you're dealing
with? Get some clarity withcuriosity and compassion. I call
it the three Cs. Clarity,compassion and creativity. When you
(31:27):
look at any of these thingsand, and you could write about it,
I would also say, say to stepback a little bit. And I created
this thing called pack, whichstands for presence, awareness and
compassion and the body. Youknow, Bessel Von Folk wrote the book
the body keeps the score. Imean the body tells us everything.
(31:49):
If we could give it some spaceand solitude is to give yourself.
You're not going to want tobecause you're feeling really crummy.
You're not going to want to bealone and. But if you could give
yourself two minutes a day tojust get present with the body or
present with your emotions.The A of pack is awareness. Like,
okay, it looks like a brick.Oh, it looks like a. My heart's being
(32:09):
clenched. And then compassion.Bringing a warm blanket, bringing
a cup of tea, bringing a voiceof someone who spoke to you kindly
or that reminded you you gotthrough hard things in the Past.
You can get through this, too,you know, this isn't a marathon.
This isn't a sprint. Peoplealways like, it's not a sprint. It's,
you know, it's a marathon. Ieven say, it's not a marathon. This
is. My dad had a quote. Hesaid, the parent child relationship
(32:31):
ends at one moment when I'm inthe ground. Right. He was kind of
that Irish stoic. And he'sright. This isn't like, you're not
gonna have emotions aroundyour kids, especially the mothers.
We birthed them, or mostmothers birthed them. You may have
adopted them, you know, butthere's a different relationship,
I would say, there. And sojust kind of give yourself that grace
(32:54):
and space to recognize thatthis is a process. It's not something
to fix or control. It's toembrace towards serenity with community
and love and compassion foryourself and others.
We're almost out of time. But,Molly, I do want to ask you. You're
about to go through thisagain. Different circumstance, different
(33:16):
child, different. Lots ofdifferent things. Do you feel better
prepared?
Oh, my gosh. I am putting onmy backpack because I wasn't. I call
it the emotional backpack. Iam like, I changed my screensaver.
I booked a couple trips withfriends. I am looking at my work
in a different way. I'm goingto go. I'm like. I've always been
(33:36):
in private practice, but I'vealso run coaching groups for women,
and I work with companies. I'mgonna. I'm taking on more clients.
I'm doing more privatepractice work. I'm looking at my
marriage, and my husband and Iare booking more trips, and I'm giving
my daughter more space than Idid my son. If I'm really honest,
(33:57):
I'm letting her know that thisis her time. It's not about me. And
so, yes, I am. I am. I amchanging the way. And it's not easy.
It's. It's intense. And it. Icry sometimes. I wake up anxious,
sometimes. I struggle withanxiety, sometimes around this experience.
(34:21):
And because in the end,Leanne, this is what it's about.
The emptiness, why it's sohard for people is because it reminds
us of our own immortality. Itreminds us that this life we've had,
we're kind of coming to adifferent phase of it. And it's not
the phase of first havingchildren in our 20s or 30s or whatever.
Right. So there's just abigger question.
(34:42):
Yeah, we'll have to end itthere, Molly. But such a great point.
Thank you so much for yourtime and sharing your insight with
us today.
Thank you so much, Lianne. Tolearn more about today's podcast
guest and topic, as well asother parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com
sa.
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