November 29, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of Where Parents Talk, host Lianne Castelino speaks to Dr. Caroline Fleck—licensed psychologist, Stanford instructor, corporate consultant, and author of Validation: How the Skill Set that Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, Increase Your Influence, and Change Your Life.
Dr. Fleck breaks down one of psychotherapy’s most impactful yet misunderstood tools: validation. She explains why it’s more than agreement or praise, how it strengthens connection, and why it’s essential for influencing behaviour—especially in tweens, teens, and young adults.
Through real-life examples, neuroscience insights, and practical skills, Dr. Fleck shares:
- What true validation looks and sounds like in families
- Why it boosts emotional regulation, trust, and behavior change
- How parents can shift from problem-solving to connection
- The critical role of empathy and presence in a distracted world
- Steps to repair strained relationships and rebuild communication
This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.
You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence, and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
(00:26):
Welcome to Where Parents Talk.My name is Lianne Castelino. Our
guest today is a licensedpsychologist, adjunct clinical instructor
at Stanford University, and acorporate consultant. Dr. Caroline
Fleck is also an author and aglobal expert on validation. Her
first book is calledValidation how the skill set that
(00:47):
revolutionized psychology willtransform your relationships, increase
your influence, and Changeyour life. Dr. Fleck is also a mother
of one, and she joins us todayfrom Los Gatos, California. Thank
you so much for making the time.
Thank you for having me.
Really interesting subjectmatter, to say the least. When we
talk about validation now, youcall validation one of psychotherapy's
(01:12):
best kept secrets.
Why? Prior to includingvalidation in psychotherapy, which
happened around the 90s, upuntil that point, we had whole disorders
that we were unable to treat.All right, so these were conditions
in which folks had behaviorsthat were really resistant to change.
(01:35):
And obviously, I mean, thefield of psychology is not young.
We had spent decades trying todevelop treatments for these conditions,
and we didn't have any. And itwasn't until we combined behaviorism,
which I think most. Mostparents for sure, are familiar with,
these ideas of reinforcementand shaping once we combined that
(01:57):
those change approaches withthis emphasis on acceptance and validation.
It was in combining those twoapproaches that we were finally able
to treat conditions we'd neverbeen able to treat before and effect
change in ways that we didn'tknow were possible.
So why write this book now andin this moment and with this message,
(02:21):
what made you decide to bringit out of the therapy room and into
the public space?
Well, for several reasons. Oneis that I'd been doing so for well
over a decade. So although Iwas trained to validate my patients,
essentially I was taught a setof skills to help me do that. I then
taught my patients thoseskills as well so that they could
(02:43):
be effective in theirrelationships in parenting at work.
And pretty soon I was teachingthis stuff in corporate workshops.
And obviously I use it day inand day out in my own life. And so
it's. It was just reallyapparent to me that we had kind of
sequestered away this reallycritical information and approach,
and it was kind of buried inthese, you know, treatment manuals
(03:06):
when really it applies topeople in general. And so it was
the success that I had In. Inhelping others develop these skills
that made me think, okay, weneed to be doing this on a larger
scale. There was that, andthen, honestly, there's the political
climate right now in whichthere's just so much emphasis on
(03:27):
agreement, and you don't agreewith me, and you don't see things
the way I do. And really, themethod I learned was how do we find
common ground when wedisagree? How do we influence people
when there is a. What feelslike a fundamental divide? And that
is what validation wasdesigned to do. And so it just feels
(03:49):
so, so important. And I thinkthat that energy, it's not just in
the politics. I feel it infamilies. I feel it just kind of
in the water. Right. It's likeeverywhere right now. And so I think
that was also part of thebackdrop for this.
When we talk about how thisaffects families and parents, parents
in particular are told thatthey need to listen to their kids,
(04:11):
but we're often not told howthey to do that. So what does real
listening or validationinclude in a family context?
Yeah. So critically. And itmight help to just kind of define
validation up front so folksunderstand what I mean by this. Validation
simply communicates that youare mindful, you understand, and
(04:31):
you empathize with some partof a person's experience. Okay. Put
simply, you're there, you getit, and you care. It is a signal
of acceptance, and thatculminates in the other person feeling
seen. All right, so that'skind of what I'm going for. That's
the target I'm trying to hit.I want this person to feel seen.
Now, in families, as inbroader culture, we tend to be really
(04:54):
distracted by what we see asproblematic by what we disagree with.
Right. The tantrum, thetalking back, all of this stuff that
we see, we need to changethis. Right? Like, that's where our
attention tends to go.Validation focuses on what's right
in this situation. So eventhough this kid is melting down,
(05:18):
what makes sense? What can Isee as valid from their perspective?
Their reaction isn't, butmaybe their disappointment is. Okay,
it makes sense to be angry. Ifyour sister took something from you,
does it make sense to punchher? No, that's not a valid reaction,
but I can validate theemotion. And in so doing, I am in
a much better place toactually change the behavior.
(05:43):
Along those lines. A lot ofparents are often faced with maybe
misconstruing what validationlooks like versus agreement. And
is it an endorsement of, let'ssay, less than acceptable behavior?
If you're in that situation,so how do we differentiate?
Mm. I often give this exampleof when I was My. My daughter was
(06:06):
really young, and I wanted tobe able to work out on the elliptical
while she played quietly nextto me. You know, she was like 2 or
3, and she could playindependently, but, like, there's
no way she would do it. When Iwas. You know, as soon as I got distracted,
she was like, mommy, Mommy.And so I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm.
I am a behaviorist. I can dothis. And of course, you know, we.
I set up the room perfectlywith all the toys set out, and she's
(06:28):
gonna get ice cream if she canplay quietly for 30 minutes. And
I got on the elliptical, andit lasted one minute. And before
she melted down. Right. Andwith validation, I led with, how
did you do that first minute?That must have genuinely been hard
for you. I know she wanted myattention. Right. Like, how did you
(06:50):
do that? That was reallyamazing. Now, the other third, the
other 29 minutes, that kind offell apart. But let's focus on that
one, because I know that thattook some work. What did you do there?
All right, so I'm genuinelyvalidating what's valid, which is
her effort in that firstminute. Okay. And I'm not giving
a pass to the other stuff.I'll say that stuff is. That was
(07:12):
not great. We need to work onthat. I'm just not going to give
it quite as much airtime. Allright. That's the difference. It's
not that I have to co sign onbehavior or that I can't talk about
it. No. If it's ineffective, Iwill flag it. All right. The point
is simply that I will givemore airtime to what's going. Well,
this is the basis of positivereinforcement, isn't is?
(07:34):
Absolutely. And so when youdescribe it in that way, there's
a reframing of the situationthat's happening. There is a shift
that is required from theparent to focus on the positive.
And you also talk about itbeing a skill set that needs to be
honed and practiced and thatkind of thing. So what is the first
(07:55):
step that a parent can take tomake that shift?
Yeah, I love this question. Asparents, we are genetically hardwired
to keep our kids alive, whichmeans that we are very focused on
threats and protecting themand what's wrong. Which means we
love to problem solve, and weare so good at it. And so when kiddos
(08:19):
come to us with, you know, aproblem, an issue, a tantrum, what
have you, our inclination isto Respond with like, how do I fix
this? You didn't do well onthe quiz. Let's get a tutor. Right?
Like, let's. You're having afight with your friend. Let me call.
Let me contact the parents.Okay, let's get in there and change.
What I would encourage folksto do instead and what I practice
(08:40):
on a daily basis with mypatients and with my family, with
people in my life, is thissimple question, should I respond
with problem solving orvalidation? All right. When emotions
are high, problem solving isunlikely to be very effective because
the person is dysregulated.Their brain is not online in the
(09:01):
way that it needs to be forthat problem solving to land. All
right, so if I just slow downand think, do I respond with problem
solving here, or should Ifocus on validating? That simple
gear shift really makes allthe difference.
So when you talk about thebrain, I think it's so helpful to
unpack in layman's terms. Ifyou could describe for us what is
(09:26):
happening in the brain whensomebody does feel validated.
Yeah. The neuroscience on thisis very interesting. I've talked
just a little bit. I'vepeppered in bits about behaviorism
in there. And the reason I dois because validation functions just
like any other positivereinforcement, meaning it lights
(09:47):
up the exact same regions inthe brain that are associated with
the release of dopamine and anincrease in behavior. Right. So we
know that validation is highlyreinforcing. It is also associated
with the regions of the brainthat signal social connection and
belonging. So you've got thiskind of, you know, dual emphasis
(10:09):
going on, you know, internallythat signals, this is yummy. This
is good. Okay? So we wantvalidation. We seek validation. And,
of course, this is somethingthat has been very stigmatized, and
we've been warned never, everto seek validation. But let's pause
there and differentiatevalidation from praise. Okay? Praise
(10:30):
says, I like the way you look.Good job. I like how you perform.
Validation says, I accept youindependent of how you look or perform.
Those are two very differentmessages we seek. As I described,
biologically, we seekvalidation. We seek a sense of belonging.
It is how we evolve tosurvive. There is nothing pathological
(10:50):
or unhealthy about that. Weshould be in relationships where
we feel accepted, and thosesignals should be frequent. And if
they're not, we shouldn't bein those relationships. Yeah. And
so with our kids, we want themto feel what that feels like, to
have relationships in whichthey feel seen and accepted, even
when they're making mistakes.And that's what we're trying to model.
(11:13):
It's so interesting becauseyou talk about validation as having
sort of this dual impact whereit can both communicate acceptance
and then encourage change. Forparents listening to and watching
this interview, that couldseem like quite a unique paradox.
How is. How are both of thesethings happening at the same time?
Take us through what'shappening and how it happens.
(11:37):
Yeah, let me. Let me kind ofgive an example here. And this is
kind of a weird one, but partof what validation communicates is
that the other person getswhere you're coming from. All right?
And when we feel understood,we are much more likely to listen
and take advice. And that'snot me just saying that. I mean,
that is, we've got, you know,decades of research on that effect.
(11:59):
And to break it down, justreally simply imagine that you have
a. You're heading out to workone morning, and your car makes this
awful sound, and your neighborcomes running out and they say, oh,
gosh, you need a new engine.But this neighbor bikes to work every
day. They don't own a car.They know nothing about cars. Right.
You're probably going to belike, okay, thanks, and keep going.
(12:19):
Imagine the next day you headout, car makes the same noise, and
your neighbor, who is amechanic and owns the best mechanic
shop in all the area, comesout and says, you need a new engine.
You're going to listen to thatperson because you trust that they
understand the situation. Thatis the power of validation. It communicates
(12:40):
very swiftly. I get it. I knowwhat's going on. I understand where
you're at, and I have aperspective that's valuable as a
result. Does that make sense?So it gives you street cred, almost.
Yes, absolutely.
Parents are constantlynavigating ages and stages. That's
just what we sign up for. AndI'm curious as to validation in terms
(13:04):
of when it could play a morecritical role in the ages and stages
of a young person's life. Isthere such a thing? Or is this something
that we should be startingearly and continuing on across the
lifespan?
Starting early, continuing on.However, that said, the shape, the
form that validation takesmust change in order to remain effective.
(13:27):
So when I validate my, youknow, my daughter, when she's six,
I can. I can lay it on reallythick, right? I can. I can lay on.
I. I am really interested inhow you handled that. I think that
that was, you know, that musthave been very hard for you. You
must have been scared. Right?I can go into all this detail, and
she's like, she'll, you Know,she'll really absorb it if I do that
(13:51):
when she's 13, like, she willpunch me in the face and be like,
no, you don't understand.Right. That feels very annoying and
intrusive and everything else.So I've got to come at it a different
way. Right. I need a muchsofter touch, but it is just as critical.
And I think, interestingly,that's where we tend to drop off
when our kids become tweensand teens. They're pushing us away,
(14:14):
and we're not necessarilyadapting and coming up with different
ways of communicating love andvalidation such that they can receive
it, and so they don't receiveit from us. And that, I think, is
a mistake. So one of thethings, again, one of the reasons
I wrote this book and teachthese skills is because as psychologists,
(14:35):
these skills have to workregardless of who's in the room across
from you. It could be anarcissist or someone who's delusional,
but the skills are meant toadapt based on the person across
from you. And that's the levelof sophistication I think we need,
frankly, in our relationshipsand society at this point.
(14:57):
When we look at that tweenteen, adolescent, young adult phase
of life, can you give us someexamples of what validating behavior
and responses versusinvalidating look like?
Yeah, Again, it's going todepend on the kiddo. I as in relating
to teens and tweens, one ofthe most validating experiences,
(15:20):
interestingly, can be simply,I would have done the same thing
in your shoes. Okay. Or, I'vebeen there. So a kiddo comes home,
let's say that they werecaught smoking. Really concerning
to a parent. This is somethingthey want to change. They want to
lean in and punish and freakout. And, like, all the cancer thoughts
(15:43):
are going through their heads.If you flip that kiddo comes home
and you say, yeah, I actuallyused to smoke in high school. I get
it. I wish I hadn't, but Idid. I smoked for five years and
whatever, you know, just kindof sharing that experience, not in
an effort to change them, butjust to say, like, I get it. Most
(16:04):
parents hear that and they'relike, oh, no, you're saying it's
okay, and that's not the case.I'm simply saying I know what it's
like to be in your shoes. Tosome extent. I wish she'd made a
different choice, but, like, Iget it. All right. The research on
this is very interesting onthe function, the extent to which
validation through disclosurefunctions on teens, very, very Powerful
(16:30):
stuff. They find that kiddoswhose parents disclose their use
of substance use, their use ofsubstances and model kind of that
self disclosure see better outcomes.
Interesting. Dr. Fleck, isthere an example in your clinical
work or in your, you know, inyour own lived experience where validation
(16:54):
and the use of it made amarked difference in somebody's life
and you saw it in with yourown eyes. You talk about how you've
been, you know, teaching theseskills for over a decade now. And
I'm just curious if there's anexample that gives you pause still.
Oh my gosh. Countlessexamples. Some of the most vivid
have, have been in the contextof couples therapy, actually. So
(17:17):
seeing folks who were justkind of could not see eye to eye
and just that pivot towardsonce someone felt heard their ability
to hear and what that lookslike. Another, frankly, is in my
experience, you know, I talkedabout disclosure as a form of validation.
(17:37):
And I work with folks who areoften depressed, they may be self
harming, they may be suicidaland sitting across from me, talking
to me with all my degreesbehind the wall and my book behind
me, most folks don't feel likeI can really get that. All right?
And so when I'm trying toencourage treatment and what I'm
getting in response is like,yeah, easy for you to say. Basically,
(18:00):
some of the mosttransformative moments that I've
experienced have been whenI've disclosed my own history of
depression with clients andsaid like, no, I get it to some extent.
Okay, maybe not to the extentthat you do, but it was pretty bad
for me. I had ect, which is avery, very invasive treatment for
(18:22):
depression for very severecases. And I share that. I disclose
that in moments to say I getit. And listen, I'm not going to
give up on you. Okay? I seethat you're more than this and I
know what it takes to getthrough this and I'm not going to
(18:42):
stop fighting. Okay, so you,so you can't either. And I know what
it's like to fight this fight.I've done it before, so stick with
me. All right? That, that hasbeen. Those have been some of the
richest moments in therapy, inmy experience, the most transformative.
So along those lines then, isthere a correlation between a person's
(19:04):
ability to validate somebodyelse and whether or not they have
validated or are able tovalidate themselves?
That is a great question andit's an empirical one. I would love
to do a study on that. As faras I, I am not aware of any research
in that space. However,anecdotally, that has been 100% my
(19:27):
experience. In fact, I findpeople become much more adept at
validating themselves throughvalidating others because it's much,
much harder to validateyourself. All of that dialog that
those tapes that play in ourheads, they're kind of subliminal
or they're, you know, we,we're not even aware of them. And
(19:48):
so it's much harder to targetthat stuff. And it is in developing
this skill set with others.That's where you get the practice.
Okay, that's like. And thenyou can level it up by turning it
internal. So often when I'mtrying to foster self validation,
I do it through helping theperson learn how to validate others.
(20:11):
What would you say to parentsin a household where they feel like
they've lost hope? Maybe theconnection and the communication
with their children, teen,tween, young adult, is really broken,
doesn't exist, and they feellike validation. They're just too
far gone. Nothing's going tohelp us. Is it possible for somebody
(20:32):
in that situation to learnvalidation, learn the skill set behind
it, and to bring it back intothat household?
Oh, my goodness, 100%. But onething I also want to say in that,
having just talked a littlebit about self validation, I think
the really toxic element tothat type of dynamic is how we as
(20:53):
parents feel about ourselvesand the amount of guilt and shame
and responsibility that weinternalize and letting that go,
okay, having compassion foryourself, being able to validate
your own experiences. Itwasn't just that you failed royally.
There were all sorts of other,you know, conditions, a long chain
(21:16):
of cause and effect that gotyou here. And it doesn't boil down
to you're a bad parent. Okay,so that piece is critical. From there,
you know, I talk about thesedifferent skills that we use to,
to validate at various levelswhen there's that type of distance.
Validation is often just assimple as paying attention and being
(21:37):
there. Anything much more thanthat can be too much. Right? You're
forcing the relationship.That's not where it's at. But you
can continue to invite theother person in to create space for
them and to show up to theextent that you can and they'll allow
you to.
Paying attention in a hyperconnected, incredibly distracted
(21:59):
world is more difficult thanit probably should be. What can you
say to parents who findthemselves caught in that sort of
spiral of trying to do all thethings that we're trying to do as
parents? Remain present, butthey're not in a space where they
can be validating to theirchild. How do they get there?
(22:22):
Yeah. This really speaks tothe extent to which I see validation
almost as a lifestyle. We hadthis concept of mindfulness. When
this kind of hit themainstream, it was a real turning
point for us as a culture tounderstand what it means to just
be present nonjudgmentally.And it's a practice. Validation is
(22:44):
very much that same thing. Allright, so it is a lifestyle. It is
a practice of kind ofinterpersonal mindfulness where you
are choosing to put the phonedown and the alerts off and you're
going to miss things. Andthat's part of the practice, is to
just tolerate the fact thatdinner is missed and things are falling
(23:06):
down, or so it seems. Thebiggest obstacle to connection we
face right now, it's phones,frankly. And so that, I think is
typically the first point ofintervention when you're feeling
overwhelmed.
You've talked about theskills. You've alluded to them. Can
you give us an examples of acouple of the skills and how we can
(23:28):
teach them and learn them asparents? Firstly, before we teach
them.
Yeah. One of the most basicskills is copying. All right. This
is considered kind of. It justconveys a sense of like, I hear you,
right? And so someone, youknow, says, oh, I just. Everything's
falling apart, nothing'sworking. And I just say, oh, nothing's
(23:51):
working. What's going on? Iwould just kind of repeat like that.
I don't do this preamble of Ihear you saying, nothing's working.
Right. That sounds verytherapized or whatever. Or I'm just
kind of matching their affect.With kids, this can be very powerful.
If they're upset and you'resmiling, it's okay. You know, there's
(24:13):
a disconnect. But when youallow yourself to be affected, when
you come down to their level,when you match in that way, it activates
mirror neurons, wherein you'reactually able to taste a little bit
of what that little person orperson across from you is feeling.
Okay. It's a very basic levelof validation. They feel seen and
(24:34):
heard. And as a function ofcopying, you are actually able to
understand and empathizebetter. That's copying. Another great
one is proposing, this is alittle bit higher up. It's a little
more sophisticated of a skill.Someone shares something with you
and you propose something theyhaven't said yet, but might be thinking,
(24:55):
all right, so my daughter'stalking about how these two new friend
groups are mixing together ather middle school. And our group
is blending with these otherkids. And I say something to the
effect of like, that must beoverwhelming to have all these new
people in your group. Now, ifI got that wrong, that's not going
(25:15):
to land, and I've got to goback to just copying and paying attention.
But if I got it right, it'slike, oh, you get it right. That
one takes some work to land.But once you master that skill, it's
like a Jedi mind trick,because every now and then you say
something that the otherperson hadn't even realized, right.
And they're like, oh, yeah,that's kind of what's going on. That's
(25:36):
proposing. And then anotherskill really high up there, really
effective when it lands, isthat disclosure that I talked about
before. Okay. That's one ofthe most advanced validation skills.
Because if you mess it up, itcan be a disaster. Right. It can
sound like back in my day.Right. Which is invalidating. Um,
(25:58):
or it could be too much, whathave you. So that just kind of gives
you a sense of the range ofwhat these skills look like. So in
a family, for instance, wherethere's been distance and fallout,
I'm focused much more on justcopying and attending, Just being
there when there's moreintimacy and there's more safety
in the relationship. I'lldisclose. Or use some higher skills
(26:20):
to validate the other person.
In order for those skills thatyou just outlined to thrive and be
sustained, there has to befoundational elements for it to.
To.
To be founded on. Right. Sowhat are some of those foundational
elements? Some of the roots,the prerequisites, if you will, that
are required for validation?To. To be able to grow?
(26:44):
Yeah. You mean in terms ofthe. The person doing the validating,
like, what do they need tokind of internalize? Yeah, I mean,
the. The primary componenthere is one of non judgment. So you're
not judging the other person'sexperience. You're just observing
with. You're just connectingwith it. Okay. You need to let go
of your concerns about do Iagree with this or not? Abandon that.
(27:07):
That's not what this is. Youneed to pivot away from problem solving.
Again, that's not what thisis. Notice the urge to change a child's
emotions when they're upset.It's totally natural. But when we
push towards change, we riskinvalidating the emotion. Right.
We are too quick to say it'sokay or it'll be okay that we don't
(27:32):
just let it be. Right. There'sthis swiftness to move past, and
it's okay to let things be,but that requires some tolerance
on our end. So I think thoseare kind of the foundations that
are required and they're goingto wax and wane and you just kind
of need to recommit to themand just notice when you've strayed.
(27:53):
The other thing that you'vementioned several times now is empathy.
And I'm wondering if you couldsort of paint a picture as to the
role that empathy plays forvalidation to be effective.
Yeah, I was thinking aboutthis before our call. I remember
at some point someoneexplained to me, you know, if you're
(28:14):
an adult and you're yelling ata child, like, picture a grown man
yelling at like a two or threeyear old kid, right? And they're
so big, like, just think aboutwhat that would look like, okay?
And I remember hearing thatand what happens there is you put
yourself in that kid's shoesand you almost see yourself looking
at, you know, looking up andyou go, oh, yeah, that's scary, right?
(28:36):
It's that, that moment of, letme look at this from this other person's
perspective. Let me see all ofit, not just what they're saying,
but let me zoom out and lookat the context. All that's going
on here. How would I feel inthat situation? That is the empathy
component. There'sunderstanding logically, hey, you
(28:58):
need to get your enginechanged. And then there's understanding
emotionally, ah, this personmust be so stressed out they're going
to have to deal with this carand they're supposed to be at work.
That's a lot going on, right?And so validation at its finest includes
both that logicalunderstanding and that empathic understanding.
(29:20):
But if you don't have both,just lead with what you've got.
Dr. Fleck, I'm curious. Wasthere anything in the course of you
researching and writing thisbook that really gave you pause that
struck you as somebody whoalready know so much about validation?
But as you poured over theresearch, you were like, wow, I didn't
(29:40):
know that. And it, you know,it kind of gave you something else
to think about.
My gosh, there was so, somuch. Unfortunately, I think some
of the most startling was theresearch on invalidation and just
how toxic that is. And so wesee, you know, kiddos who are raised
(30:01):
in pervasively invalidatingenvironments. That means we all invalidate
our kids. It's okay. Butsituations in which every time a
kid discloses an emotion, it'sdismissed or shut down, right? Or
there's emotional abuse orphysical abuse, that type of invalidation
just what it does to a person.I mean, it is. Invalidation is highly
(30:25):
correlated with just. Justabout every single mental health
disorder you can imagine,including some of the most severe,
like psychopathy, bipolardisorder, borderline personality
disorder. I mean, the listgoes on and on. And so this is really
toxic stuff. And I don't thinkthat there's an appreciation for
(30:45):
that on a larger scale. Ithink we know we're not supposed
to do it, but I don't thinkthere's a sense of why.
Doctor Fleck, if you couldrewrite one parenting mantra through
the lens of validation.
What would that be? To rewriteone or come up with one either. Okay,
(31:09):
I don't know if I would re. Ithink I would lead the. The parenting
mantra I've got in my head isaround that. Like, should I respond
with problem solving orvalidation? Is this something to
change or accept? All right.That to me is like a really solid
mantra because I find myselftripping over the urge to change
constantly, especially when mykid's in distress. It's just so hard
(31:32):
to be like, let's just sitwith this. Let's just feel this.
As a psychologist, I'm shockedhow difficult that is for me as someone
who sits with big emotions allday, seeing it in my kid is just
a different thing. And so thatmantra of accept or change, accept
or change, validate or problemsolve, what should I do? And that's
(31:53):
not to say you can't problemsolve ever. It's just, what are you
going to lead with? Because ifI want to be effective in giving
advice, if I want it to betaken, I need to validate first.
What is one tip that you canshare with parents who listen to
or watch this interview abouta small step that they can take tomorrow
(32:14):
or today to address andinclude validation in their lives?
As parents, I want them tofocus simply on saying the words
or feeling the words. I seeyou. Okay, those are words you can
say, but do you feel it? Sowhen a kiddos spinning out or whatever,
(32:36):
especially after like aconflict with you in which you're
feeling targeted, can you seethe kernel of truth in their experience?
So much of it is like out ofproportion and X, Y or Z. But can
you see some part of how theygot there? I'm often asking myself,
like, what's the kernel oftruth? Where is it? Can I see them?
(32:58):
And I want to feel that in me.And that is the North Star.
What a wonderful way to endour interview. Dr. Caroline Fleck,
licensed psychologist andauthor of Validation Lots to think
about. Thank you so much foryour time.
Thank you.
To learn more about today'spodcast, guest and topic, as well
(33:21):
as other parenting themes,visit where Parents talk dot com.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence, and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
(00:26):
Welcome to Where Parents Talk.My name is Lianne Castelino. Our
guest today is a licensedpsychologist, adjunct clinical instructor
at Stanford University, and acorporate consultant. Dr. Caroline
Fleck is also an author and aglobal expert on validation. Her
first book is calledValidation how the skill set that
(00:47):
revolutionized psychology willtransform your relationships, increase
your influence, and Changeyour life. Dr. Fleck is also a mother
of one, and she joins us todayfrom Los Gatos, California. Thank
you so much for making the time.
Thank you for having me.
Really interesting subjectmatter, to say the least. When we
talk about validation now, youcall validation one of psychotherapy's
(01:12):
best kept secrets.
Why? Prior to includingvalidation in psychotherapy, which
happened around the 90s, upuntil that point, we had whole disorders
that we were unable to treat.All right, so these were conditions
in which folks had behaviorsthat were really resistant to change.
(01:35):
And obviously, I mean, thefield of psychology is not young.
We had spent decades trying todevelop treatments for these conditions,
and we didn't have any. And itwasn't until we combined behaviorism,
which I think most. Mostparents for sure, are familiar with,
these ideas of reinforcementand shaping once we combined that
(01:57):
those change approaches withthis emphasis on acceptance and validation.
It was in combining those twoapproaches that we were finally able
to treat conditions we'd neverbeen able to treat before and effect
change in ways that we didn'tknow were possible.
So why write this book now andin this moment and with this message,
(02:21):
what made you decide to bringit out of the therapy room and into
the public space?
Well, for several reasons. Oneis that I'd been doing so for well
over a decade. So although Iwas trained to validate my patients,
essentially I was taught a setof skills to help me do that. I then
taught my patients thoseskills as well so that they could
(02:43):
be effective in theirrelationships in parenting at work.
And pretty soon I was teachingthis stuff in corporate workshops.
And obviously I use it day inand day out in my own life. And so
it's. It was just reallyapparent to me that we had kind of
sequestered away this reallycritical information and approach,
and it was kind of buried inthese, you know, treatment manuals
(03:06):
when really it applies topeople in general. And so it was
the success that I had In. Inhelping others develop these skills
that made me think, okay, weneed to be doing this on a larger
scale. There was that, andthen, honestly, there's the political
climate right now in whichthere's just so much emphasis on
(03:27):
agreement, and you don't agreewith me, and you don't see things
the way I do. And really, themethod I learned was how do we find
common ground when wedisagree? How do we influence people
when there is a. What feelslike a fundamental divide? And that
is what validation wasdesigned to do. And so it just feels
(03:49):
so, so important. And I thinkthat that energy, it's not just in
the politics. I feel it infamilies. I feel it just kind of
in the water. Right. It's likeeverywhere right now. And so I think
that was also part of thebackdrop for this.
When we talk about how thisaffects families and parents, parents
in particular are told thatthey need to listen to their kids,
(04:11):
but we're often not told howthey to do that. So what does real
listening or validationinclude in a family context?
Yeah. So critically. And itmight help to just kind of define
validation up front so folksunderstand what I mean by this. Validation
simply communicates that youare mindful, you understand, and
(04:31):
you empathize with some partof a person's experience. Okay. Put
simply, you're there, you getit, and you care. It is a signal
of acceptance, and thatculminates in the other person feeling
seen. All right, so that'skind of what I'm going for. That's
the target I'm trying to hit.I want this person to feel seen.
Now, in families, as inbroader culture, we tend to be really
(04:54):
distracted by what we see asproblematic by what we disagree with.
Right. The tantrum, thetalking back, all of this stuff that
we see, we need to changethis. Right? Like, that's where our
attention tends to go.Validation focuses on what's right
in this situation. So eventhough this kid is melting down,
(05:18):
what makes sense? What can Isee as valid from their perspective?
Their reaction isn't, butmaybe their disappointment is. Okay,
it makes sense to be angry. Ifyour sister took something from you,
does it make sense to punchher? No, that's not a valid reaction,
but I can validate theemotion. And in so doing, I am in
a much better place toactually change the behavior.
(05:43):
Along those lines. A lot ofparents are often faced with maybe
misconstruing what validationlooks like versus agreement. And
is it an endorsement of, let'ssay, less than acceptable behavior?
If you're in that situation,so how do we differentiate?
Mm. I often give this exampleof when I was My. My daughter was
(06:06):
really young, and I wanted tobe able to work out on the elliptical
while she played quietly nextto me. You know, she was like 2 or
3, and she could playindependently, but, like, there's
no way she would do it. When Iwas. You know, as soon as I got distracted,
she was like, mommy, Mommy.And so I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm.
I am a behaviorist. I can dothis. And of course, you know, we.
I set up the room perfectlywith all the toys set out, and she's
(06:28):
gonna get ice cream if she canplay quietly for 30 minutes. And
I got on the elliptical, andit lasted one minute. And before
she melted down. Right. Andwith validation, I led with, how
did you do that first minute?That must have genuinely been hard
for you. I know she wanted myattention. Right. Like, how did you
(06:50):
do that? That was reallyamazing. Now, the other third, the
other 29 minutes, that kind offell apart. But let's focus on that
one, because I know that thattook some work. What did you do there?
All right, so I'm genuinelyvalidating what's valid, which is
her effort in that firstminute. Okay. And I'm not giving
a pass to the other stuff.I'll say that stuff is. That was
(07:12):
not great. We need to work onthat. I'm just not going to give
it quite as much airtime. Allright. That's the difference. It's
not that I have to co sign onbehavior or that I can't talk about
it. No. If it's ineffective, Iwill flag it. All right. The point
is simply that I will givemore airtime to what's going. Well,
this is the basis of positivereinforcement, isn't is?
(07:34):
Absolutely. And so when youdescribe it in that way, there's
a reframing of the situationthat's happening. There is a shift
that is required from theparent to focus on the positive.
And you also talk about itbeing a skill set that needs to be
honed and practiced and thatkind of thing. So what is the first
(07:55):
step that a parent can take tomake that shift?
Yeah, I love this question. Asparents, we are genetically hardwired
to keep our kids alive, whichmeans that we are very focused on
threats and protecting themand what's wrong. Which means we
love to problem solve, and weare so good at it. And so when kiddos
(08:19):
come to us with, you know, aproblem, an issue, a tantrum, what
have you, our inclination isto Respond with like, how do I fix
this? You didn't do well onthe quiz. Let's get a tutor. Right?
Like, let's. You're having afight with your friend. Let me call.
Let me contact the parents.Okay, let's get in there and change.
What I would encourage folksto do instead and what I practice
(08:40):
on a daily basis with mypatients and with my family, with
people in my life, is thissimple question, should I respond
with problem solving orvalidation? All right. When emotions
are high, problem solving isunlikely to be very effective because
the person is dysregulated.Their brain is not online in the
(09:01):
way that it needs to be forthat problem solving to land. All
right, so if I just slow downand think, do I respond with problem
solving here, or should Ifocus on validating? That simple
gear shift really makes allthe difference.
So when you talk about thebrain, I think it's so helpful to
unpack in layman's terms. Ifyou could describe for us what is
(09:26):
happening in the brain whensomebody does feel validated.
Yeah. The neuroscience on thisis very interesting. I've talked
just a little bit. I'vepeppered in bits about behaviorism
in there. And the reason I dois because validation functions just
like any other positivereinforcement, meaning it lights
(09:47):
up the exact same regions inthe brain that are associated with
the release of dopamine and anincrease in behavior. Right. So we
know that validation is highlyreinforcing. It is also associated
with the regions of the brainthat signal social connection and
belonging. So you've got thiskind of, you know, dual emphasis
(10:09):
going on, you know, internallythat signals, this is yummy. This
is good. Okay? So we wantvalidation. We seek validation. And,
of course, this is somethingthat has been very stigmatized, and
we've been warned never, everto seek validation. But let's pause
there and differentiatevalidation from praise. Okay? Praise
(10:30):
says, I like the way you look.Good job. I like how you perform.
Validation says, I accept youindependent of how you look or perform.
Those are two very differentmessages we seek. As I described,
biologically, we seekvalidation. We seek a sense of belonging.
It is how we evolve tosurvive. There is nothing pathological
(10:50):
or unhealthy about that. Weshould be in relationships where
we feel accepted, and thosesignals should be frequent. And if
they're not, we shouldn't bein those relationships. Yeah. And
so with our kids, we want themto feel what that feels like, to
have relationships in whichthey feel seen and accepted, even
when they're making mistakes.And that's what we're trying to model.
(11:13):
It's so interesting becauseyou talk about validation as having
sort of this dual impact whereit can both communicate acceptance
and then encourage change. Forparents listening to and watching
this interview, that couldseem like quite a unique paradox.
How is. How are both of thesethings happening at the same time?
Take us through what'shappening and how it happens.
(11:37):
Yeah, let me. Let me kind ofgive an example here. And this is
kind of a weird one, but partof what validation communicates is
that the other person getswhere you're coming from. All right?
And when we feel understood,we are much more likely to listen
and take advice. And that'snot me just saying that. I mean,
that is, we've got, you know,decades of research on that effect.
(11:59):
And to break it down, justreally simply imagine that you have
a. You're heading out to workone morning, and your car makes this
awful sound, and your neighborcomes running out and they say, oh,
gosh, you need a new engine.But this neighbor bikes to work every
day. They don't own a car.They know nothing about cars. Right.
You're probably going to belike, okay, thanks, and keep going.
(12:19):
Imagine the next day you headout, car makes the same noise, and
your neighbor, who is amechanic and owns the best mechanic
shop in all the area, comesout and says, you need a new engine.
You're going to listen to thatperson because you trust that they
understand the situation. Thatis the power of validation. It communicates
(12:40):
very swiftly. I get it. I knowwhat's going on. I understand where
you're at, and I have aperspective that's valuable as a
result. Does that make sense?So it gives you street cred, almost.
Yes, absolutely.
Parents are constantlynavigating ages and stages. That's
just what we sign up for. AndI'm curious as to validation in terms
(13:04):
of when it could play a morecritical role in the ages and stages
of a young person's life. Isthere such a thing? Or is this something
that we should be startingearly and continuing on across the
lifespan?
Starting early, continuing on.However, that said, the shape, the
form that validation takesmust change in order to remain effective.
(13:27):
So when I validate my, youknow, my daughter, when she's six,
I can. I can lay it on reallythick, right? I can. I can lay on.
I. I am really interested inhow you handled that. I think that
that was, you know, that musthave been very hard for you. You
must have been scared. Right?I can go into all this detail, and
she's like, she'll, you Know,she'll really absorb it if I do that
(13:51):
when she's 13, like, she willpunch me in the face and be like,
no, you don't understand.Right. That feels very annoying and
intrusive and everything else.So I've got to come at it a different
way. Right. I need a muchsofter touch, but it is just as critical.
And I think, interestingly,that's where we tend to drop off
when our kids become tweensand teens. They're pushing us away,
(14:14):
and we're not necessarilyadapting and coming up with different
ways of communicating love andvalidation such that they can receive
it, and so they don't receiveit from us. And that, I think, is
a mistake. So one of thethings, again, one of the reasons
I wrote this book and teachthese skills is because as psychologists,
(14:35):
these skills have to workregardless of who's in the room across
from you. It could be anarcissist or someone who's delusional,
but the skills are meant toadapt based on the person across
from you. And that's the levelof sophistication I think we need,
frankly, in our relationshipsand society at this point.
(14:57):
When we look at that tweenteen, adolescent, young adult phase
of life, can you give us someexamples of what validating behavior
and responses versusinvalidating look like?
Yeah, Again, it's going todepend on the kiddo. I as in relating
to teens and tweens, one ofthe most validating experiences,
(15:20):
interestingly, can be simply,I would have done the same thing
in your shoes. Okay. Or, I'vebeen there. So a kiddo comes home,
let's say that they werecaught smoking. Really concerning
to a parent. This is somethingthey want to change. They want to
lean in and punish and freakout. And, like, all the cancer thoughts
(15:43):
are going through their heads.If you flip that kiddo comes home
and you say, yeah, I actuallyused to smoke in high school. I get
it. I wish I hadn't, but Idid. I smoked for five years and
whatever, you know, just kindof sharing that experience, not in
an effort to change them, butjust to say, like, I get it. Most
(16:04):
parents hear that and they'relike, oh, no, you're saying it's
okay, and that's not the case.I'm simply saying I know what it's
like to be in your shoes. Tosome extent. I wish she'd made a
different choice, but, like, Iget it. All right. The research on
this is very interesting onthe function, the extent to which
validation through disclosurefunctions on teens, very, very Powerful
(16:30):
stuff. They find that kiddoswhose parents disclose their use
of substance use, their use ofsubstances and model kind of that
self disclosure see better outcomes.
Interesting. Dr. Fleck, isthere an example in your clinical
work or in your, you know, inyour own lived experience where validation
(16:54):
and the use of it made amarked difference in somebody's life
and you saw it in with yourown eyes. You talk about how you've
been, you know, teaching theseskills for over a decade now. And
I'm just curious if there's anexample that gives you pause still.
Oh my gosh. Countlessexamples. Some of the most vivid
have, have been in the contextof couples therapy, actually. So
(17:17):
seeing folks who were justkind of could not see eye to eye
and just that pivot towardsonce someone felt heard their ability
to hear and what that lookslike. Another, frankly, is in my
experience, you know, I talkedabout disclosure as a form of validation.
(17:37):
And I work with folks who areoften depressed, they may be self
harming, they may be suicidaland sitting across from me, talking
to me with all my degreesbehind the wall and my book behind
me, most folks don't feel likeI can really get that. All right?
And so when I'm trying toencourage treatment and what I'm
getting in response is like,yeah, easy for you to say. Basically,
(18:00):
some of the mosttransformative moments that I've
experienced have been whenI've disclosed my own history of
depression with clients andsaid like, no, I get it to some extent.
Okay, maybe not to the extentthat you do, but it was pretty bad
for me. I had ect, which is avery, very invasive treatment for
(18:22):
depression for very severecases. And I share that. I disclose
that in moments to say I getit. And listen, I'm not going to
give up on you. Okay? I seethat you're more than this and I
know what it takes to getthrough this and I'm not going to
(18:42):
stop fighting. Okay, so you,so you can't either. And I know what
it's like to fight this fight.I've done it before, so stick with
me. All right? That, that hasbeen. Those have been some of the
richest moments in therapy, inmy experience, the most transformative.
So along those lines then, isthere a correlation between a person's
(19:04):
ability to validate somebodyelse and whether or not they have
validated or are able tovalidate themselves?
That is a great question andit's an empirical one. I would love
to do a study on that. As faras I, I am not aware of any research
in that space. However,anecdotally, that has been 100% my
(19:27):
experience. In fact, I findpeople become much more adept at
validating themselves throughvalidating others because it's much,
much harder to validateyourself. All of that dialog that
those tapes that play in ourheads, they're kind of subliminal
or they're, you know, we,we're not even aware of them. And
(19:48):
so it's much harder to targetthat stuff. And it is in developing
this skill set with others.That's where you get the practice.
Okay, that's like. And thenyou can level it up by turning it
internal. So often when I'mtrying to foster self validation,
I do it through helping theperson learn how to validate others.
(20:11):
What would you say to parentsin a household where they feel like
they've lost hope? Maybe theconnection and the communication
with their children, teen,tween, young adult, is really broken,
doesn't exist, and they feellike validation. They're just too
far gone. Nothing's going tohelp us. Is it possible for somebody
(20:32):
in that situation to learnvalidation, learn the skill set behind
it, and to bring it back intothat household?
Oh, my goodness, 100%. But onething I also want to say in that,
having just talked a littlebit about self validation, I think
the really toxic element tothat type of dynamic is how we as
(20:53):
parents feel about ourselvesand the amount of guilt and shame
and responsibility that weinternalize and letting that go,
okay, having compassion foryourself, being able to validate
your own experiences. Itwasn't just that you failed royally.
There were all sorts of other,you know, conditions, a long chain
(21:16):
of cause and effect that gotyou here. And it doesn't boil down
to you're a bad parent. Okay,so that piece is critical. From there,
you know, I talk about thesedifferent skills that we use to,
to validate at various levelswhen there's that type of distance.
Validation is often just assimple as paying attention and being
(21:37):
there. Anything much more thanthat can be too much. Right? You're
forcing the relationship.That's not where it's at. But you
can continue to invite theother person in to create space for
them and to show up to theextent that you can and they'll allow
you to.
Paying attention in a hyperconnected, incredibly distracted
(21:59):
world is more difficult thanit probably should be. What can you
say to parents who findthemselves caught in that sort of
spiral of trying to do all thethings that we're trying to do as
parents? Remain present, butthey're not in a space where they
can be validating to theirchild. How do they get there?
(22:22):
Yeah. This really speaks tothe extent to which I see validation
almost as a lifestyle. We hadthis concept of mindfulness. When
this kind of hit themainstream, it was a real turning
point for us as a culture tounderstand what it means to just
be present nonjudgmentally.And it's a practice. Validation is
(22:44):
very much that same thing. Allright, so it is a lifestyle. It is
a practice of kind ofinterpersonal mindfulness where you
are choosing to put the phonedown and the alerts off and you're
going to miss things. Andthat's part of the practice, is to
just tolerate the fact thatdinner is missed and things are falling
(23:06):
down, or so it seems. Thebiggest obstacle to connection we
face right now, it's phones,frankly. And so that, I think is
typically the first point ofintervention when you're feeling
overwhelmed.
You've talked about theskills. You've alluded to them. Can
you give us an examples of acouple of the skills and how we can
(23:28):
teach them and learn them asparents? Firstly, before we teach
them.
Yeah. One of the most basicskills is copying. All right. This
is considered kind of. It justconveys a sense of like, I hear you,
right? And so someone, youknow, says, oh, I just. Everything's
falling apart, nothing'sworking. And I just say, oh, nothing's
(23:51):
working. What's going on? Iwould just kind of repeat like that.
I don't do this preamble of Ihear you saying, nothing's working.
Right. That sounds verytherapized or whatever. Or I'm just
kind of matching their affect.With kids, this can be very powerful.
If they're upset and you'resmiling, it's okay. You know, there's
(24:13):
a disconnect. But when youallow yourself to be affected, when
you come down to their level,when you match in that way, it activates
mirror neurons, wherein you'reactually able to taste a little bit
of what that little person orperson across from you is feeling.
Okay. It's a very basic levelof validation. They feel seen and
(24:34):
heard. And as a function ofcopying, you are actually able to
understand and empathizebetter. That's copying. Another great
one is proposing, this is alittle bit higher up. It's a little
more sophisticated of a skill.Someone shares something with you
and you propose something theyhaven't said yet, but might be thinking,
(24:55):
all right, so my daughter'stalking about how these two new friend
groups are mixing together ather middle school. And our group
is blending with these otherkids. And I say something to the
effect of like, that must beoverwhelming to have all these new
people in your group. Now, ifI got that wrong, that's not going
(25:15):
to land, and I've got to goback to just copying and paying attention.
But if I got it right, it'slike, oh, you get it right. That
one takes some work to land.But once you master that skill, it's
like a Jedi mind trick,because every now and then you say
something that the otherperson hadn't even realized, right.
And they're like, oh, yeah,that's kind of what's going on. That's
(25:36):
proposing. And then anotherskill really high up there, really
effective when it lands, isthat disclosure that I talked about
before. Okay. That's one ofthe most advanced validation skills.
Because if you mess it up, itcan be a disaster. Right. It can
sound like back in my day.Right. Which is invalidating. Um,
(25:58):
or it could be too much, whathave you. So that just kind of gives
you a sense of the range ofwhat these skills look like. So in
a family, for instance, wherethere's been distance and fallout,
I'm focused much more on justcopying and attending, Just being
there when there's moreintimacy and there's more safety
in the relationship. I'lldisclose. Or use some higher skills
(26:20):
to validate the other person.
In order for those skills thatyou just outlined to thrive and be
sustained, there has to befoundational elements for it to.
To.
To be founded on. Right. Sowhat are some of those foundational
elements? Some of the roots,the prerequisites, if you will, that
are required for validation?To. To be able to grow?
(26:44):
Yeah. You mean in terms ofthe. The person doing the validating,
like, what do they need tokind of internalize? Yeah, I mean,
the. The primary componenthere is one of non judgment. So you're
not judging the other person'sexperience. You're just observing
with. You're just connectingwith it. Okay. You need to let go
of your concerns about do Iagree with this or not? Abandon that.
(27:07):
That's not what this is. Youneed to pivot away from problem solving.
Again, that's not what thisis. Notice the urge to change a child's
emotions when they're upset.It's totally natural. But when we
push towards change, we riskinvalidating the emotion. Right.
We are too quick to say it'sokay or it'll be okay that we don't
(27:32):
just let it be. Right. There'sthis swiftness to move past, and
it's okay to let things be,but that requires some tolerance
on our end. So I think thoseare kind of the foundations that
are required and they're goingto wax and wane and you just kind
of need to recommit to themand just notice when you've strayed.
(27:53):
The other thing that you'vementioned several times now is empathy.
And I'm wondering if you couldsort of paint a picture as to the
role that empathy plays forvalidation to be effective.
Yeah, I was thinking aboutthis before our call. I remember
at some point someoneexplained to me, you know, if you're
(28:14):
an adult and you're yelling ata child, like, picture a grown man
yelling at like a two or threeyear old kid, right? And they're
so big, like, just think aboutwhat that would look like, okay?
And I remember hearing thatand what happens there is you put
yourself in that kid's shoesand you almost see yourself looking
at, you know, looking up andyou go, oh, yeah, that's scary, right?
(28:36):
It's that, that moment of, letme look at this from this other person's
perspective. Let me see all ofit, not just what they're saying,
but let me zoom out and lookat the context. All that's going
on here. How would I feel inthat situation? That is the empathy
component. There'sunderstanding logically, hey, you
(28:58):
need to get your enginechanged. And then there's understanding
emotionally, ah, this personmust be so stressed out they're going
to have to deal with this carand they're supposed to be at work.
That's a lot going on, right?And so validation at its finest includes
both that logicalunderstanding and that empathic understanding.
(29:20):
But if you don't have both,just lead with what you've got.
Dr. Fleck, I'm curious. Wasthere anything in the course of you
researching and writing thisbook that really gave you pause that
struck you as somebody whoalready know so much about validation?
But as you poured over theresearch, you were like, wow, I didn't
(29:40):
know that. And it, you know,it kind of gave you something else
to think about.
My gosh, there was so, somuch. Unfortunately, I think some
of the most startling was theresearch on invalidation and just
how toxic that is. And so wesee, you know, kiddos who are raised
(30:01):
in pervasively invalidatingenvironments. That means we all invalidate
our kids. It's okay. Butsituations in which every time a
kid discloses an emotion, it'sdismissed or shut down, right? Or
there's emotional abuse orphysical abuse, that type of invalidation
just what it does to a person.I mean, it is. Invalidation is highly
(30:25):
correlated with just. Justabout every single mental health
disorder you can imagine,including some of the most severe,
like psychopathy, bipolardisorder, borderline personality
disorder. I mean, the listgoes on and on. And so this is really
toxic stuff. And I don't thinkthat there's an appreciation for
(30:45):
that on a larger scale. Ithink we know we're not supposed
to do it, but I don't thinkthere's a sense of why.
Doctor Fleck, if you couldrewrite one parenting mantra through
the lens of validation.
What would that be? To rewriteone or come up with one either. Okay,
(31:09):
I don't know if I would re. Ithink I would lead the. The parenting
mantra I've got in my head isaround that. Like, should I respond
with problem solving orvalidation? Is this something to
change or accept? All right.That to me is like a really solid
mantra because I find myselftripping over the urge to change
constantly, especially when mykid's in distress. It's just so hard
(31:32):
to be like, let's just sitwith this. Let's just feel this.
As a psychologist, I'm shockedhow difficult that is for me as someone
who sits with big emotions allday, seeing it in my kid is just
a different thing. And so thatmantra of accept or change, accept
or change, validate or problemsolve, what should I do? And that's
(31:53):
not to say you can't problemsolve ever. It's just, what are you
going to lead with? Because ifI want to be effective in giving
advice, if I want it to betaken, I need to validate first.
What is one tip that you canshare with parents who listen to
or watch this interview abouta small step that they can take tomorrow
(32:14):
or today to address andinclude validation in their lives?
As parents, I want them tofocus simply on saying the words
or feeling the words. I seeyou. Okay, those are words you can
say, but do you feel it? Sowhen a kiddos spinning out or whatever,
(32:36):
especially after like aconflict with you in which you're
feeling targeted, can you seethe kernel of truth in their experience?
So much of it is like out ofproportion and X, Y or Z. But can
you see some part of how theygot there? I'm often asking myself,
like, what's the kernel oftruth? Where is it? Can I see them?
(32:58):
And I want to feel that in me.And that is the North Star.
What a wonderful way to endour interview. Dr. Caroline Fleck,
licensed psychologist andauthor of Validation Lots to think
about. Thank you so much foryour time.
Thank you.
To learn more about today'spodcast, guest and topic, as well
(33:21):
as other parenting themes,visit where Parents talk dot com.
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