May 3, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino is joined by Doug Bolton, clinical psychologist, educator, and author, for an in-depth conversation on the complex realities of parenting in today’s world.
Bolton sheds light on the rising rates of youth anxiety and stress—and how well-meaning parental behaviours can sometimes contribute to these challenges.
The discussion explores the critical role of emotional regulation, the value of community, and the importance of prioritizing connection over competition.
The conversation also examines the influence of digital culture, device use, and social media on youth relationships and the evolving understanding of consent.
Bolton offers insights to help parents navigate the delicate balance between discipline, open communication, and fostering independence—all in support of their children’s emotional and mental well-being.
Takeaways:
- The unprecedented levels of anxiety and depression in youth today can be partly attributed to the pressures of academic achievement and the competitive nature of modern schooling.
- Effective parenting requires a focus on emotional regulation and building connected relationships rather than relying on traditional incentives and punishments.
- Creating a sense of belonging within communities is crucial for children's mental health, serving as a buffer against stress and trauma.
- Parents must prioritize their own emotional health to model and encourage resilience and coping skills in their children.
- The impact of social media and device usage on children's mental health is significant, underscoring the need for open communication and understanding around consent and relationships.
- Encouraging independence in children is vital, but it should be balanced with the need for support and guidance to navigate the challenges of adolescence.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- North Shore Academy
- Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
- Baby Einstein
- Dan Pink
- Bruce Perry
- Stuart Shanker
- Ross Green
- Stuart Ablon
- Teresa Barker
- Susie Wise
This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.
You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
(00:27):
How are parents potentiallycontributing to the unprecedented
level of anxiety, depressionand stress affecting kids and youth
today? Welcome to WhereParents Talk. My name is Leanne Castellino.
Our guest today is a clinicalpsychologist and an author. Doug
Bolton was the principal of apublic therapeutic school in the
(00:48):
United States for 14 years.He's also an educator and a father
of three. His first book iscalled Creating Connected Families,
Schools and Communities toRaise a Resilient Generation. Doug
joins us today from Evanston,Illinois. Thank you so much for taking
the time.
Thank you so much for having me.
(01:10):
Looking forward to thisconversation because we are talking
about communities at the endof the day and maybe more so than
the average parent would thinkabout. Your debut book, Untethered
has been described as eyeopening. Can you take us through
why you think it has earnedthat descriptor?
(01:30):
Yeah, I think for a couple ofreasons. As we've gotten deeper and
deeper into this childhoodmental health crisis, I think we've
tried to find all sorts ofsolutions to it. In some ways, Untethered
brings us back to our rootsreally as a species. We were meant
to be in community. That's howwe've always survived as a species.
(01:51):
We would never have survivedif we weren't in community. In some
ways, I think this is alooking back to get to re establish
our roots as opposed to tryingto create something new to address
these concerns. And inparticular, I think that it means
rethinking a lot of the thingsthat we have believed are the foundations
(02:13):
of our parenting. Thinkingabout kids behavior through the lens
of motivation, for instance,as opposed to through the lens of
connection and emotionalregulation. That when we begin to
take a look at the use ofincentives and punishments, which
is often our first go tostrategy for kids who are struggling
(02:36):
behaviorally when their mentalhealth issues show up as behavior,
our first response is to fallback on incentives and punishments.
Those have been debunked inmany ways for supporting children's
development for the last 70years or so. I think it's a little
bit more of how do wereestablish who we are are as opposed
(02:59):
to how do we create somethingnew to address this crisis.
So let's unpack the differentstrands of themes that you've outlined
there. I want to start Thoughfirst with the idea that the pandemic
really exacerbated what wasalready an emerging crisis, or in
some experts view, a crisisalready. When we talk about youth
(03:20):
mental health challenges fromyour perspective, what. What are
some of the root causes ofthis ongoing crisis?
Great question. You know, Ithink that there's a. One of the
things that Covid did was Ithink it took an epidemic and then
it turbocharged it. And sowhen we talk about the power of community,
(03:42):
that's one of the main thingsthat we lost during COVID was this
ability to be in community.But the things that there was a mental
health crisis before COVID Ithink that there's a lot written
about social media and I thinkthat certainly that's been a big
part of it, but it's not theonly piece of it. And I think we
want a lot of people willthrow all their eggs in that basket.
(04:06):
But I think that there's anumber of things that have been stressful
for children. I think that theincreased pressure we have in schools
to achieve, and I think thisstarted in some ways from the government's
perspective, we created in theUnited States, no Child Left behind.
(04:29):
But across the world, we beganreally measuring kids and schools
through test scores. As we dothat, then our focus becomes on test
scores. Universities havebecome more and more selective intentionally
so that they can become higherrated because of their selectivity.
(04:51):
There's a lot of differentways that we've created scarcity
for our kids. We have travelteams now, and you've got it. And
everybody is fighting forthese few positions. And instead
of being together, oftentimeswe are competing against one another.
So I think that academicallyand socially, we are creating situations
(05:14):
where kids need to achieve andwe've put achievement at the forefront
rather than children'sdevelopment. And they aren't. They
can coexist. But what we wantto make sure of is that in order
to achieve our best, we've gotto have connected relationships.
We need to have a sense ofbelonging in order to achieve. So
(05:36):
it's not that achievementitself is bad, it's just that how
can we create the conditionswhere kids are going to be able to
fully develop as they engagein activities and hopefully experience
some achievement. Then theother piece that I'll try and mention
more briefly is as parents, wefocused on self esteem. I think there's
(05:59):
a lot of research in the 1990sand there's been a self esteem generation.
I think that we'vemisunderstood the data on self esteem.
I think that as we began asparents to look at self esteem. We
believe that distress when ourchildren experience distress, that
somehow we are. That's counterto a child's developing self esteem.
(06:25):
And so we've been protectingour children from distress. And we
experience distress when wesee our children in distress. And
in fact, it is experiencingdistress and getting through it that's
essential for us to develophealthy coping skills and resilience
as opposed to not experiencingdistress. I think children's distress
tolerance has gone downbecause as parents, we've been jumping
(06:48):
in and rescuing them ratherthan having them experience it and
finding their way through it.
I want to go back to yourearlier point before we talk about
the distress piece, but whenyou talk about creating the conditions
favorable for achievement,that is healthy achievement, what
do those conditions entail?What does that look like?
(07:10):
Yeah, you know, the researchon belonging is really very, very
powerful. And, and so the,the. My. I've got all sorts of ideas
about this, so let me just,let me figure out how I can do this
succinctly. One of the thingsthat we know is that in order to
(07:34):
really learn and to have ourbrains fully developed, we need to
be emotionally regulated andwe need to be connected in relationship.
And those things come first.Right. And then we can learn. And
that's been the case. We'veknown this about learning since the
beginning of time, that thesetwo things are essential. As we focus
(07:56):
more and more on test scoresand achievement, we take less and
less time to regulate and toconnect. And so classrooms now teach
bell to bell. Instead ofhaving some times to connect and
quiet, we have kids going homeand having three hours of homework
every night after a sportspractice, meaning that they're not
able to connect and regulatefollowing the school day with their
(08:19):
family. We've got kids andmultiple teams. And so families,
instead of having familydinners, we are juggling schedules
and trying to figure out who'sgot to get the snack for which kid,
for which team. In many ways,we're unraveling in our efforts to
(08:40):
have kids on achieve insports, to have them achieve academically,
to have them achieve in theorchestra and whatever it may be,
we are undermining the thingsthat actually drive that achievement,
which is being connected andbeing emotionally regulated.
So I guess it begs thequestion, if you are a parent who
(09:00):
finds yourself in one of thosesituations that you just outlined,
how do you dial that back?
Yeah, you know, it's. We needto be really intentional about it.
I think that part of this isin 2019, the Robert Wood Johnson
(09:21):
Foundation Named the topenvironmental conditions harming
adolescent wellness. We knewabout poverty, we knew about discrimination,
we knew about trauma. But allof a sudden, right up there was this
excessive pressure to excel.At some level, we're all drinking
from the same water. Asparents, we want our kids to be high
achievers. Our kids want to behigh achievers. And the way we define
(09:44):
that is not just excellenceacross a number of different areas.
And so from very early on, webegin pushing kids towards. I remember
when my kids were young, wehad Baby Einstein and this was our
way to get their brains goingso that they could then really engage
in preschool. That we starteda very early age with this idea that
(10:09):
the more we achieve, the moreand the higher we achieve, the better.
And what we know is that lifedoesn't work that way. That life.
In order to be successful, weneed to have a rhythm to our lives.
That in order to be our bestwhen we are in class or on a sports
team or our best at home withfamily, we need to rest first. Right?
(10:37):
We need to have downtimebefore we can fully engage. It's
the way the rhythms of ourlives. We sleep during the night
so that we can have a goodproductive day. If we don't get a
good night's sleep, if wedon't have that downtime, we can't
fully engage. What's happeningis we are taking away the downtime.
We're taking away the downtimein classrooms because we're teaching
bell to bell and we have veryshort passing periods. Teachers don't
(11:01):
get a chance to have theirmind quiet and re engage. Kids don't
have that opportunity. Thenthey go straight from school to home
where they have homework orpractice and then homework. And so
we've taken away that very,very important rhythm in our lives.
And I think that the work isto put the rhythm in first and then
figure out do they need to beon three travel teams, right. And
(11:24):
we would never say tosomebody, I know you like ice cream
sundae, so why don't you havefour of them today? Right there,
there is, there is such athing as too much of a good thing.
And I think that we need to beaware of that to be able to say,
everybody can, you know, we'vegot. You put the values of taking
the time, the downtime, maybedinner time is a, is a value. And
(11:47):
so we're going to make sure wehave dinner together four nights
a week. And then we work ourschedules around that. It may be
there are families who, youknow, who have to be working during
that time. So, but let's,let's put the time to connect and
the time to be regulated infirst. The amount of time we sleep
has to be put in first beforewe figure out how are we going to
add a play onto the varsitysoccer team, onto the orchestra.
(12:14):
I guess it does mean makinghard choices and making our kids
unhappy because too much istoo much.
Well, I think part of gettingthat message across perhaps is painting
a picture of what happens whena child, or what could happen when
a child is exposed to, youknow, toxic achievement, academic
(12:38):
pressure, etc. In whatspecific ways could that affect their
emotional well being and their development?
Yeah, so it's another greatquestion when our, you know, when,
when I talk about theserhythms, I'm in many ways I'm talking
about the rhythms of ournervous system. And our nervous system
(13:03):
is meant to be activated andthen to go back to homeostasis. It's
meant to have a rhythm to it.It's also meant to respond when there's
a crisis. Right. To, to. Andthere's all sorts of hormonal and
neurological activity that,that get triggered in order for us
to rise to a certain occasion.But when we're activating all of
(13:26):
those systems in our bodies,they're meant to be activated and
then quiet so they canrecover. When they don't have the
time to recover. That's whenwe begin to notice problems related
to dysregulation, which couldbe anything from irritability, temper
tantrums to avoidance and highlevels of anxiety. There are also
(13:51):
physical outcomes, and maybenot when we're kids, but when we've
worked, when we've exhaustedthose resources, they shut down more.
When we're adults, we oftensee health outcomes a couple decades
after kids have experiencedsignificant high levels of stress
as children. And then thereare a number of behavioral outcomes.
(14:13):
The likelihood kids who, whoare in just attending a high achieving
school puts kids at risk 3, 7times other kids for substance abuse,
for anxiety and fordepression. And so I think that the
(14:33):
data on this is really clearand it's really hard for us to say,
well, I become anxious when Itake. If my child's not going to
achieve, if my child's notgoing to get into a selective school,
if my child's not going to, ifmy child gets a C on a test. It's
hard to sit with that becausewe're in a culture where everybody
(14:54):
believes that this level ofachievement is essential for success.
And that's just a house ofcards because it's not.
It'S so interesting becauseit's so the norm, right, that to
hear you kind of talk aboutwhy it potentially shouldn't be the
norm is just going againstwhat we see and hear and live every
(15:18):
day.
What.
What made you decide to writeUntethered, your first book on this
topic at this time?
Yeah. So, you know, I was theprincipal of a therapeutic school.
And so it's a school. We had150 kids, K through 12, coming into
our buildings every day. Andthese are kids who couldn't. Who
(15:44):
were with us precisely becausethey struggled to be successful and
navigate the emotionaldemands, social emotional and behavioral
demands of general educationschool. And I was continually inspired
by the kids and families atNorth Shore Academy. And I realized
(16:06):
I've got to start writingthese stories down because I'm going
to forget them. And I don'twant to forget them, kicking myself,
because I started doing thatjust in the last couple years. And
then after I left North ShoreAcademy, I was doing professional
development for schools on howto support kids. Social, emotional,
(16:27):
behavioral development. Andpeople would say, well, do you have
a book? And I said, no, Idon't have a book. But I had 18 hours
of workshops. And so whenCovid hit, I found that I had some
time and I just decided, okay,I'm gonna. I'm gonna write all this.
I'm gonna write out what theseworkshops, what I was saying in these
(16:51):
workshops. And it became abouta 400 page book. And I didn't think
it was. I wasn't sure if itwould ever get read, but I just knew
I had to write it. And then Ihad a. Teresa Barker, who's a writer,
said, let me take a look atit. And so I showed it to her and
she said. I said, is it a bookand am I a writer? And she said,
(17:13):
yes, it's both. And she hookedme up with an agent and then it.
It became a book, but I reallydidn't. I had no idea that it would
be. That it would be publishedin this way. And. But I think I'm.
I'm really happy that thestories that this all began with
that fill the book. Thestories of the students and families
(17:34):
and staff that I was luckyenough to work with are a part of
are in print now, and I'mhappy about that.
In the course of putting thattogether, you know, writing down
your thoughts, looking at theevidence, including the science,
was there anything that inparticular struck you? Even though
you're an educator and aformer principal and a father, and
(17:56):
all of these things that whenyou came across this science as it
relates to this topic that,you know, it gave you pause.
Yeah, it was actually. It wasremarkable. You know, as a therapeutic
school principal, we were verybehavioral in our. In our work, and
we were successful. Don't getme wrong, we were successful, but
(18:18):
I think that we believe thatwe were successful because we had
so many incentives andpunishments. And what I began to
realize as I dove into theresearch was that we were successful
in spite of that. And DanPink's work drive helped me really
take a look at how do weunderstand motivation when it's.
When we're not seeing it, whenwe're not seeing it through the lens
(18:39):
of incentives and punishments.And so he was able to say really
what motivation is, is aboutmastery, autonomy, and purpose. Right.
And. And that was fitting withthe. That with broader themes. I
would. I would watch thepeople who are most successful with
(19:00):
kids, and I started seeingthat it was also really consistent
with the research. I waslearning about emotional regulation
from writers and speakers likeBruce Perry, like Stuart Shanker.
And so I think that that wasthe biggest shift is that when what
Stuart Shanker says ismisbehavior is stress behavior. I
(19:24):
think, to paraphrase somethingBruce Perry would say is misbehavior
is trauma behavior. Of course,trauma is just toxic levels of stress.
Rather than when a child or astudent is misbehaving, we say, okay,
what are the incentives andpunishments we can do to change that?
The thought then is, I wonderwhat the stress is that's causing
(19:44):
it. And I wonder how we canhelp the student address the stress
instead of. Instead of tryingto punish the behavior. This was
a big shift for us, and itfits with Ross Green and Stuart Ablon's
collaborative problem solvingwork. Collaborative and proactive
solutions. They've gotdifferent titles for their work,
(20:08):
but again, kids do well ifthey can. It's not about the motivation.
It's about skill. And so alsotaking a look, do they have the skills
to tolerate the stresses intheir lives right now? So as we began
to dive into these concepts,it became really clear that we were
successful because we werenurturing those aspects of kids development,
(20:28):
not because we had, you know,you had two periods in the quiet
room if you swore to teacher.It was what we did. Once they got
to the quiet room, we had themost regulated and connected people
in the quiet room to work withthem. And of course, then they were
able to find their best selvesand get back to class. It wasn't
the fact that they had thismagic formula of incentives and punishments.
(20:49):
It's interesting because youtalk about the skills that the kids
would require, but what aboutthe skills that a parent should optimally
be armed with in order to notuse rewards and punishments and do
what you described, especiallygiven all the stresses of their lives,
whether they have otherchildren, et cetera, et cetera? Like,
(21:11):
what are the key skills thatyou think parents need to have in
order to practice this typeof, I guess, parenting?
Yeah. So I think the firststep in this is to be regulated ourselves.
We make the worst. Our worstdecisions when we are emotionally
(21:33):
dysregulated. I think ourdysregulation catches us off guard.
And when I think aboutdysregulation, one of the things
for students, for kids, butalso for us, is there are two real
qualities to this. The firstis we have a sense of urgency. We've
got to deal with this rightnow, and almost never do we have
(21:55):
to deal with it right now. Andthe other is an exaggeration. If
my child lied to me, if Idon't come down hard now, they're
going to be liars when they're25, and they'll never be able to
hold down a job. Who knowswhat's going to happen? So that's
the urgency and then theexaggeration. The other thing that
happens when we aredysregulated is we lose our most
(22:18):
important skills to be able toresolve problems. We're not as good
at listening. When you thinkabout that, I'm sure you've never
melted down, Leanne, but otherpeople may have. But if we think
back to the times that we'vemelted down, think about the skills
that we just can't access inthose moments. We're not as good
at listening. We're not asgood at being able to be creative.
(22:40):
We become remarkablyinflexible. We lose empathy, even
though we love our kid, welose empathy for them. We lose language,
we yell. Or sometimes we can'teven find the words right. And so
these are the skills that wereally need. And if we're bringing.
If we're engaging with ourkids without these skills and they
(23:02):
don't have these skills, nowonder small problems can become
big problems really quickly.So the first step is to be aware
of our own dysregulation andaware of the fact that in these moments,
you are going to feel a needfor control, which is going to lead
us down the path towardspunishments, really. And this happens,
still happens for me, eventhough I know all this stuff, but.
(23:23):
But now I can coach myself alittle better to be able to say,
let's wait before you make adecision on this. Let's wait until
your. Your full brain comesback online so that we can. So that
I can be more collaborative intrying to figure out how to navigate
this issue with my child. AndI don't. I'm not panicking because
(23:43):
I've got this exaggeratedsense about what might happen if.
If this behavior continuesforever, which it almost never does,
of course. But that's ourworry in the moment. So I would say
the biggest skill that we canhave is to take care of our own regulation
first.
You know, it's interesting, asI hear you describe, that what comes
to mind is what a lot ofparents tell their kids. You know,
(24:05):
before you react to something,count to three in your head. Take
that.
That's right. That's right. Yes.
And we dispense that advice toour children, but it sounds like
we should be taking it more as parents.
Yeah. And I think that thecues that I try and have for myself
when I'm in that place is whatI'll notice. The things that I notice
(24:26):
the most is this lack offlexibility. Right. And I also notice
a lack of empathy. And so whenI take a walk to try and get myself
more regulated, it doesn'thave to even have to happen that
day oftentimes. Let's talkabout this tomorrow when we both
have our best brains about us.But what I'll find is that once I
(24:47):
can reestablish empathy andbegin to have the ability to take
perspective of what'shappening for my child or my spouse,
and I can find myself in amore flexible place. Well, we don't
have to do it my way. There'sa lot of different ways we can do
this. That's when I startknowing that my brain is coming back
(25:11):
to home, my nervous system iscoming back to homeostasis, I can
reestablish my best thinking.I can reestablish relationship, and
then we can talk about what weshould do from here together.
One of the things thatUntethered talks about, and you alluded
to it at the beginning of theconversation, is the importance of
community. We live in a worldwhere that seems to be changing largely
(25:37):
because of the virtual world,certainly the in influence and impact
of the pandemic. It stilldoes, depending on who you talk to
take a village to raise achild. But I'm curious in terms of,
you know, why. Why shouldparents consider or reconsider the
(25:57):
importance of community? Canyou characterize why Community is
important in raising kids today.
Yeah, there's so many reasons.So, so if we take a look, you know,
the, there's the evolutionarybiology perspective that really speaks
(26:22):
to the fact that, that inorder to survive, I couldn't, you
or I would, would not do welleven if we had a fire and a spear
against the woolly mammothsthat were, you know, running the
world at the time. Right. Theonly way we could survive all of
the conditions across theentire globe, really, is because
(26:45):
we had people who could hunt,people who could gather, people who
could protect us and make, andmake weapons, people who could cook,
people who could care forfamilies. You know, we were gathered
in groups of somewhere between40 and 150 people. And that's how
we've always survived. And ifwe were to get kicked out of that
(27:08):
group, we would be, surely wewould die. There's no way we could
survive. And so this is wherethis idea of fomo, there's an evolutionary
biology basis to this, thatbeing excluded at our very roots
as people can trigger thatlevel of anxiety. So we exist in
(27:34):
these communities. So thenwhat is it that these communities
do? If you take a look. AndJeffrey Cohen's work on belonging
is very, very powerful. And hetalks about all of the impacts of
when we feel a sense ofbelonging, we. Our mental health
improves, our physical healthimproves, our social skills improve,
(27:54):
our behavior improves. We'reable to achieve more just about on
every indice. And it buffersus from the impact of stress and
trauma. For some people,that's all we need is to be embedded
(28:14):
in communities like this forother kids who have more significant
trauma challenges. It'snecessary, but maybe not sufficient.
Maybe we do need to have atherapist or other psychiatric or
psychological or social workinterventions to be able to support
that. But it's really at thecore of our being is to belong. And
(28:35):
when we don't belong, ourbodies. Tell us very quickly.
What do you want readers ofUntethered to leave and take away
from this book?
So I want them to leave withsome skills, right. Some strategies
and skills that can be helpfulfor them in their hardest moments.
(29:01):
I think mental health issuescan feel scary because it's such
a broad and it feels likeyou've got to have your PhD to be
able to, to help your child.And I don't believe that. I really
believe that when we can showup and focus on how do we connect,
how can we be emotionallyregulated? That's when we do. That
(29:23):
takes care of a ton of mentalhealth concerns for kids. So I think
that there's, so my hope is itgives people tools that are accessible
and I think rethinking how ourparenting, rethinking parenting.
I think that as a society, Ithink we need to have a broader conversation
(29:47):
about the ways that many ofthe things that we rely on are harming
our kids instead of helpingthem. So I hope that there's that
broader conversation. But Iguess the biggest piece for me is
I want them to feel a sense ofhope. And the stories from North
Shore Academy where, wherekids have kids and families have
(30:08):
really felt very, very lost.But the power of community to help
them find their path to a lifethat they never thought was available
to them. My hope is thatpeople, if they're seeing, if they're
feeling stuck, that they willknow that, that there's, that this
is a very hopeful message,that, that they will develop and
(30:29):
grow. And if we can embed kidsin healthy communities, who knows
where they will go.
What one small step could yousuggest that parents and educators
could potentially take rightaway to embrace the approach that
you have outlined in Untethered?
(30:51):
Yeah, so one, that's tricky.So I'll tell you where my brain went
first with that and, and thenI'll tell you where it went second,
if that makes sense. I thinkthe first step is to, to make sure
to take a look at our, ourlives and our kids lives and see
(31:11):
if we're pausing enough. Sowhat you know, we talked before about
this ability to, to pause.Mary Jo Barrett, a social worker,
talks about pausing andpondering. And I'd say pausing and
connecting. Do we have enoughpause time? Do you have enough connecting
time? That's not just rushingoff somewhere, going somewhere. Do
(31:33):
we have enough time where weare regulating and relating? And
then I think the second one istaking a look and doing an inventory.
Susie Wise has a book, I can'tremember the title of it, but it's,
it's a book on belonging. Andwhat she, she talks about is creating
belonging maps. And where inyour day do you have a sense of belonging?
(31:59):
And where in your day do younot have a sense of belonging? And
to begin to take a look athow, where do those, where do those
places show up? Is thereenough belonging in our lives? And
if there's not, where can weadd some, how can we create greater
sense of belonging indifferent places? So I think those
are the thoughts that I've gotas you ask that.
(32:23):
Certainly lots of importantfood for thought for parents, educators
and kids as well. DOUG BoltonAuthor, of creating connected families,
schools and communities toraise a resilient generation. Thank
you so much for your time andyour insight today.
Leanne, thank you so much. Itwas really an honor to speak with
you today.
(32:44):
Thank you.
To learn more about today'spodcast, guest and topic, as well
as other parenting themes,visit whereparents talk.com.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast. We help grow better
parents through science,evidence and the lived experience
of other parents. Learn how tobetter navigate the mental and physical
health of your tween teen oryoung adult through proven expert
advice. Here's your host,Lianne Castelino.
(00:27):
How are parents potentiallycontributing to the unprecedented
level of anxiety, depressionand stress affecting kids and youth
today? Welcome to WhereParents Talk. My name is Leanne Castellino.
Our guest today is a clinicalpsychologist and an author. Doug
Bolton was the principal of apublic therapeutic school in the
(00:48):
United States for 14 years.He's also an educator and a father
of three. His first book iscalled Creating Connected Families,
Schools and Communities toRaise a Resilient Generation. Doug
joins us today from Evanston,Illinois. Thank you so much for taking
the time.
Thank you so much for having me.
(01:10):
Looking forward to thisconversation because we are talking
about communities at the endof the day and maybe more so than
the average parent would thinkabout. Your debut book, Untethered
has been described as eyeopening. Can you take us through
why you think it has earnedthat descriptor?
(01:30):
Yeah, I think for a couple ofreasons. As we've gotten deeper and
deeper into this childhoodmental health crisis, I think we've
tried to find all sorts ofsolutions to it. In some ways, Untethered
brings us back to our rootsreally as a species. We were meant
to be in community. That's howwe've always survived as a species.
(01:51):
We would never have survivedif we weren't in community. In some
ways, I think this is alooking back to get to re establish
our roots as opposed to tryingto create something new to address
these concerns. And inparticular, I think that it means
rethinking a lot of the thingsthat we have believed are the foundations
(02:13):
of our parenting. Thinkingabout kids behavior through the lens
of motivation, for instance,as opposed to through the lens of
connection and emotionalregulation. That when we begin to
take a look at the use ofincentives and punishments, which
is often our first go tostrategy for kids who are struggling
(02:36):
behaviorally when their mentalhealth issues show up as behavior,
our first response is to fallback on incentives and punishments.
Those have been debunked inmany ways for supporting children's
development for the last 70years or so. I think it's a little
bit more of how do wereestablish who we are are as opposed
(02:59):
to how do we create somethingnew to address this crisis.
So let's unpack the differentstrands of themes that you've outlined
there. I want to start Thoughfirst with the idea that the pandemic
really exacerbated what wasalready an emerging crisis, or in
some experts view, a crisisalready. When we talk about youth
(03:20):
mental health challenges fromyour perspective, what. What are
some of the root causes ofthis ongoing crisis?
Great question. You know, Ithink that there's a. One of the
things that Covid did was Ithink it took an epidemic and then
it turbocharged it. And sowhen we talk about the power of community,
(03:42):
that's one of the main thingsthat we lost during COVID was this
ability to be in community.But the things that there was a mental
health crisis before COVID Ithink that there's a lot written
about social media and I thinkthat certainly that's been a big
part of it, but it's not theonly piece of it. And I think we
want a lot of people willthrow all their eggs in that basket.
(04:06):
But I think that there's anumber of things that have been stressful
for children. I think that theincreased pressure we have in schools
to achieve, and I think thisstarted in some ways from the government's
perspective, we created in theUnited States, no Child Left behind.
(04:29):
But across the world, we beganreally measuring kids and schools
through test scores. As we dothat, then our focus becomes on test
scores. Universities havebecome more and more selective intentionally
so that they can become higherrated because of their selectivity.
(04:51):
There's a lot of differentways that we've created scarcity
for our kids. We have travelteams now, and you've got it. And
everybody is fighting forthese few positions. And instead
of being together, oftentimeswe are competing against one another.
So I think that academicallyand socially, we are creating situations
(05:14):
where kids need to achieve andwe've put achievement at the forefront
rather than children'sdevelopment. And they aren't. They
can coexist. But what we wantto make sure of is that in order
to achieve our best, we've gotto have connected relationships.
We need to have a sense ofbelonging in order to achieve. So
(05:36):
it's not that achievementitself is bad, it's just that how
can we create the conditionswhere kids are going to be able to
fully develop as they engagein activities and hopefully experience
some achievement. Then theother piece that I'll try and mention
more briefly is as parents, wefocused on self esteem. I think there's
(05:59):
a lot of research in the 1990sand there's been a self esteem generation.
I think that we'vemisunderstood the data on self esteem.
I think that as we began asparents to look at self esteem. We
believe that distress when ourchildren experience distress, that
somehow we are. That's counterto a child's developing self esteem.
(06:25):
And so we've been protectingour children from distress. And we
experience distress when wesee our children in distress. And
in fact, it is experiencingdistress and getting through it that's
essential for us to develophealthy coping skills and resilience
as opposed to not experiencingdistress. I think children's distress
tolerance has gone downbecause as parents, we've been jumping
(06:48):
in and rescuing them ratherthan having them experience it and
finding their way through it.
I want to go back to yourearlier point before we talk about
the distress piece, but whenyou talk about creating the conditions
favorable for achievement,that is healthy achievement, what
do those conditions entail?What does that look like?
(07:10):
Yeah, you know, the researchon belonging is really very, very
powerful. And, and so the,the. My. I've got all sorts of ideas
about this, so let me just,let me figure out how I can do this
succinctly. One of the thingsthat we know is that in order to
(07:34):
really learn and to have ourbrains fully developed, we need to
be emotionally regulated andwe need to be connected in relationship.
And those things come first.Right. And then we can learn. And
that's been the case. We'veknown this about learning since the
beginning of time, that thesetwo things are essential. As we focus
(07:56):
more and more on test scoresand achievement, we take less and
less time to regulate and toconnect. And so classrooms now teach
bell to bell. Instead ofhaving some times to connect and
quiet, we have kids going homeand having three hours of homework
every night after a sportspractice, meaning that they're not
able to connect and regulatefollowing the school day with their
(08:19):
family. We've got kids andmultiple teams. And so families,
instead of having familydinners, we are juggling schedules
and trying to figure out who'sgot to get the snack for which kid,
for which team. In many ways,we're unraveling in our efforts to
(08:40):
have kids on achieve insports, to have them achieve academically,
to have them achieve in theorchestra and whatever it may be,
we are undermining the thingsthat actually drive that achievement,
which is being connected andbeing emotionally regulated.
So I guess it begs thequestion, if you are a parent who
(09:00):
finds yourself in one of thosesituations that you just outlined,
how do you dial that back?
Yeah, you know, it's. We needto be really intentional about it.
I think that part of this isin 2019, the Robert Wood Johnson
(09:21):
Foundation Named the topenvironmental conditions harming
adolescent wellness. We knewabout poverty, we knew about discrimination,
we knew about trauma. But allof a sudden, right up there was this
excessive pressure to excel.At some level, we're all drinking
from the same water. Asparents, we want our kids to be high
achievers. Our kids want to behigh achievers. And the way we define
(09:44):
that is not just excellenceacross a number of different areas.
And so from very early on, webegin pushing kids towards. I remember
when my kids were young, wehad Baby Einstein and this was our
way to get their brains goingso that they could then really engage
in preschool. That we starteda very early age with this idea that
(10:09):
the more we achieve, the moreand the higher we achieve, the better.
And what we know is that lifedoesn't work that way. That life.
In order to be successful, weneed to have a rhythm to our lives.
That in order to be our bestwhen we are in class or on a sports
team or our best at home withfamily, we need to rest first. Right?
(10:37):
We need to have downtimebefore we can fully engage. It's
the way the rhythms of ourlives. We sleep during the night
so that we can have a goodproductive day. If we don't get a
good night's sleep, if wedon't have that downtime, we can't
fully engage. What's happeningis we are taking away the downtime.
We're taking away the downtimein classrooms because we're teaching
bell to bell and we have veryshort passing periods. Teachers don't
(11:01):
get a chance to have theirmind quiet and re engage. Kids don't
have that opportunity. Thenthey go straight from school to home
where they have homework orpractice and then homework. And so
we've taken away that very,very important rhythm in our lives.
And I think that the work isto put the rhythm in first and then
figure out do they need to beon three travel teams, right. And
(11:24):
we would never say tosomebody, I know you like ice cream
sundae, so why don't you havefour of them today? Right there,
there is, there is such athing as too much of a good thing.
And I think that we need to beaware of that to be able to say,
everybody can, you know, we'vegot. You put the values of taking
the time, the downtime, maybedinner time is a, is a value. And
(11:47):
so we're going to make sure wehave dinner together four nights
a week. And then we work ourschedules around that. It may be
there are families who, youknow, who have to be working during
that time. So, but let's,let's put the time to connect and
the time to be regulated infirst. The amount of time we sleep
has to be put in first beforewe figure out how are we going to
add a play onto the varsitysoccer team, onto the orchestra.
(12:14):
I guess it does mean makinghard choices and making our kids
unhappy because too much istoo much.
Well, I think part of gettingthat message across perhaps is painting
a picture of what happens whena child, or what could happen when
a child is exposed to, youknow, toxic achievement, academic
(12:38):
pressure, etc. In whatspecific ways could that affect their
emotional well being and their development?
Yeah, so it's another greatquestion when our, you know, when,
when I talk about theserhythms, I'm in many ways I'm talking
about the rhythms of ournervous system. And our nervous system
(13:03):
is meant to be activated andthen to go back to homeostasis. It's
meant to have a rhythm to it.It's also meant to respond when there's
a crisis. Right. To, to. Andthere's all sorts of hormonal and
neurological activity that,that get triggered in order for us
to rise to a certain occasion.But when we're activating all of
(13:26):
those systems in our bodies,they're meant to be activated and
then quiet so they canrecover. When they don't have the
time to recover. That's whenwe begin to notice problems related
to dysregulation, which couldbe anything from irritability, temper
tantrums to avoidance and highlevels of anxiety. There are also
(13:51):
physical outcomes, and maybenot when we're kids, but when we've
worked, when we've exhaustedthose resources, they shut down more.
When we're adults, we oftensee health outcomes a couple decades
after kids have experiencedsignificant high levels of stress
as children. And then thereare a number of behavioral outcomes.
(14:13):
The likelihood kids who, whoare in just attending a high achieving
school puts kids at risk 3, 7times other kids for substance abuse,
for anxiety and fordepression. And so I think that the
(14:33):
data on this is really clearand it's really hard for us to say,
well, I become anxious when Itake. If my child's not going to
achieve, if my child's notgoing to get into a selective school,
if my child's not going to, ifmy child gets a C on a test. It's
hard to sit with that becausewe're in a culture where everybody
(14:54):
believes that this level ofachievement is essential for success.
And that's just a house ofcards because it's not.
It'S so interesting becauseit's so the norm, right, that to
hear you kind of talk aboutwhy it potentially shouldn't be the
norm is just going againstwhat we see and hear and live every
(15:18):
day.
What.
What made you decide to writeUntethered, your first book on this
topic at this time?
Yeah. So, you know, I was theprincipal of a therapeutic school.
And so it's a school. We had150 kids, K through 12, coming into
our buildings every day. Andthese are kids who couldn't. Who
(15:44):
were with us precisely becausethey struggled to be successful and
navigate the emotionaldemands, social emotional and behavioral
demands of general educationschool. And I was continually inspired
by the kids and families atNorth Shore Academy. And I realized
(16:06):
I've got to start writingthese stories down because I'm going
to forget them. And I don'twant to forget them, kicking myself,
because I started doing thatjust in the last couple years. And
then after I left North ShoreAcademy, I was doing professional
development for schools on howto support kids. Social, emotional,
(16:27):
behavioral development. Andpeople would say, well, do you have
a book? And I said, no, Idon't have a book. But I had 18 hours
of workshops. And so whenCovid hit, I found that I had some
time and I just decided, okay,I'm gonna. I'm gonna write all this.
I'm gonna write out what theseworkshops, what I was saying in these
(16:51):
workshops. And it became abouta 400 page book. And I didn't think
it was. I wasn't sure if itwould ever get read, but I just knew
I had to write it. And then Ihad a. Teresa Barker, who's a writer,
said, let me take a look atit. And so I showed it to her and
she said. I said, is it a bookand am I a writer? And she said,
(17:13):
yes, it's both. And she hookedme up with an agent and then it.
It became a book, but I reallydidn't. I had no idea that it would
be. That it would be publishedin this way. And. But I think I'm.
I'm really happy that thestories that this all began with
that fill the book. Thestories of the students and families
(17:34):
and staff that I was luckyenough to work with are a part of
are in print now, and I'mhappy about that.
In the course of putting thattogether, you know, writing down
your thoughts, looking at theevidence, including the science,
was there anything that inparticular struck you? Even though
you're an educator and aformer principal and a father, and
(17:56):
all of these things that whenyou came across this science as it
relates to this topic that,you know, it gave you pause.
Yeah, it was actually. It wasremarkable. You know, as a therapeutic
school principal, we were verybehavioral in our. In our work, and
we were successful. Don't getme wrong, we were successful, but
(18:18):
I think that we believe thatwe were successful because we had
so many incentives andpunishments. And what I began to
realize as I dove into theresearch was that we were successful
in spite of that. And DanPink's work drive helped me really
take a look at how do weunderstand motivation when it's.
When we're not seeing it, whenwe're not seeing it through the lens
(18:39):
of incentives and punishments.And so he was able to say really
what motivation is, is aboutmastery, autonomy, and purpose. Right.
And. And that was fitting withthe. That with broader themes. I
would. I would watch thepeople who are most successful with
(19:00):
kids, and I started seeingthat it was also really consistent
with the research. I waslearning about emotional regulation
from writers and speakers likeBruce Perry, like Stuart Shanker.
And so I think that that wasthe biggest shift is that when what
Stuart Shanker says ismisbehavior is stress behavior. I
(19:24):
think, to paraphrase somethingBruce Perry would say is misbehavior
is trauma behavior. Of course,trauma is just toxic levels of stress.
Rather than when a child or astudent is misbehaving, we say, okay,
what are the incentives andpunishments we can do to change that?
The thought then is, I wonderwhat the stress is that's causing
(19:44):
it. And I wonder how we canhelp the student address the stress
instead of. Instead of tryingto punish the behavior. This was
a big shift for us, and itfits with Ross Green and Stuart Ablon's
collaborative problem solvingwork. Collaborative and proactive
solutions. They've gotdifferent titles for their work,
(20:08):
but again, kids do well ifthey can. It's not about the motivation.
It's about skill. And so alsotaking a look, do they have the skills
to tolerate the stresses intheir lives right now? So as we began
to dive into these concepts,it became really clear that we were
successful because we werenurturing those aspects of kids development,
(20:28):
not because we had, you know,you had two periods in the quiet
room if you swore to teacher.It was what we did. Once they got
to the quiet room, we had themost regulated and connected people
in the quiet room to work withthem. And of course, then they were
able to find their best selvesand get back to class. It wasn't
the fact that they had thismagic formula of incentives and punishments.
(20:49):
It's interesting because youtalk about the skills that the kids
would require, but what aboutthe skills that a parent should optimally
be armed with in order to notuse rewards and punishments and do
what you described, especiallygiven all the stresses of their lives,
whether they have otherchildren, et cetera, et cetera? Like,
(21:11):
what are the key skills thatyou think parents need to have in
order to practice this typeof, I guess, parenting?
Yeah. So I think the firststep in this is to be regulated ourselves.
We make the worst. Our worstdecisions when we are emotionally
(21:33):
dysregulated. I think ourdysregulation catches us off guard.
And when I think aboutdysregulation, one of the things
for students, for kids, butalso for us, is there are two real
qualities to this. The firstis we have a sense of urgency. We've
got to deal with this rightnow, and almost never do we have
(21:55):
to deal with it right now. Andthe other is an exaggeration. If
my child lied to me, if Idon't come down hard now, they're
going to be liars when they're25, and they'll never be able to
hold down a job. Who knowswhat's going to happen? So that's
the urgency and then theexaggeration. The other thing that
happens when we aredysregulated is we lose our most
(22:18):
important skills to be able toresolve problems. We're not as good
at listening. When you thinkabout that, I'm sure you've never
melted down, Leanne, but otherpeople may have. But if we think
back to the times that we'vemelted down, think about the skills
that we just can't access inthose moments. We're not as good
at listening. We're not asgood at being able to be creative.
(22:40):
We become remarkablyinflexible. We lose empathy, even
though we love our kid, welose empathy for them. We lose language,
we yell. Or sometimes we can'teven find the words right. And so
these are the skills that wereally need. And if we're bringing.
If we're engaging with ourkids without these skills and they
(23:02):
don't have these skills, nowonder small problems can become
big problems really quickly.So the first step is to be aware
of our own dysregulation andaware of the fact that in these moments,
you are going to feel a needfor control, which is going to lead
us down the path towardspunishments, really. And this happens,
still happens for me, eventhough I know all this stuff, but.
(23:23):
But now I can coach myself alittle better to be able to say,
let's wait before you make adecision on this. Let's wait until
your. Your full brain comesback online so that we can. So that
I can be more collaborative intrying to figure out how to navigate
this issue with my child. AndI don't. I'm not panicking because
(23:43):
I've got this exaggeratedsense about what might happen if.
If this behavior continuesforever, which it almost never does,
of course. But that's ourworry in the moment. So I would say
the biggest skill that we canhave is to take care of our own regulation
first.
You know, it's interesting, asI hear you describe, that what comes
to mind is what a lot ofparents tell their kids. You know,
(24:05):
before you react to something,count to three in your head. Take
that.
That's right. That's right. Yes.
And we dispense that advice toour children, but it sounds like
we should be taking it more as parents.
Yeah. And I think that thecues that I try and have for myself
when I'm in that place is whatI'll notice. The things that I notice
(24:26):
the most is this lack offlexibility. Right. And I also notice
a lack of empathy. And so whenI take a walk to try and get myself
more regulated, it doesn'thave to even have to happen that
day oftentimes. Let's talkabout this tomorrow when we both
have our best brains about us.But what I'll find is that once I
(24:47):
can reestablish empathy andbegin to have the ability to take
perspective of what'shappening for my child or my spouse,
and I can find myself in amore flexible place. Well, we don't
have to do it my way. There'sa lot of different ways we can do
this. That's when I startknowing that my brain is coming back
(25:11):
to home, my nervous system iscoming back to homeostasis, I can
reestablish my best thinking.I can reestablish relationship, and
then we can talk about what weshould do from here together.
One of the things thatUntethered talks about, and you alluded
to it at the beginning of theconversation, is the importance of
community. We live in a worldwhere that seems to be changing largely
(25:37):
because of the virtual world,certainly the in influence and impact
of the pandemic. It stilldoes, depending on who you talk to
take a village to raise achild. But I'm curious in terms of,
you know, why. Why shouldparents consider or reconsider the
(25:57):
importance of community? Canyou characterize why Community is
important in raising kids today.
Yeah, there's so many reasons.So, so if we take a look, you know,
the, there's the evolutionarybiology perspective that really speaks
(26:22):
to the fact that, that inorder to survive, I couldn't, you
or I would, would not do welleven if we had a fire and a spear
against the woolly mammothsthat were, you know, running the
world at the time. Right. Theonly way we could survive all of
the conditions across theentire globe, really, is because
(26:45):
we had people who could hunt,people who could gather, people who
could protect us and make, andmake weapons, people who could cook,
people who could care forfamilies. You know, we were gathered
in groups of somewhere between40 and 150 people. And that's how
we've always survived. And ifwe were to get kicked out of that
(27:08):
group, we would be, surely wewould die. There's no way we could
survive. And so this is wherethis idea of fomo, there's an evolutionary
biology basis to this, thatbeing excluded at our very roots
as people can trigger thatlevel of anxiety. So we exist in
(27:34):
these communities. So thenwhat is it that these communities
do? If you take a look. AndJeffrey Cohen's work on belonging
is very, very powerful. And hetalks about all of the impacts of
when we feel a sense ofbelonging, we. Our mental health
improves, our physical healthimproves, our social skills improve,
(27:54):
our behavior improves. We'reable to achieve more just about on
every indice. And it buffersus from the impact of stress and
trauma. For some people,that's all we need is to be embedded
(28:14):
in communities like this forother kids who have more significant
trauma challenges. It'snecessary, but maybe not sufficient.
Maybe we do need to have atherapist or other psychiatric or
psychological or social workinterventions to be able to support
that. But it's really at thecore of our being is to belong. And
(28:35):
when we don't belong, ourbodies. Tell us very quickly.
What do you want readers ofUntethered to leave and take away
from this book?
So I want them to leave withsome skills, right. Some strategies
and skills that can be helpfulfor them in their hardest moments.
(29:01):
I think mental health issuescan feel scary because it's such
a broad and it feels likeyou've got to have your PhD to be
able to, to help your child.And I don't believe that. I really
believe that when we can showup and focus on how do we connect,
how can we be emotionallyregulated? That's when we do. That
(29:23):
takes care of a ton of mentalhealth concerns for kids. So I think
that there's, so my hope is itgives people tools that are accessible
and I think rethinking how ourparenting, rethinking parenting.
I think that as a society, Ithink we need to have a broader conversation
(29:47):
about the ways that many ofthe things that we rely on are harming
our kids instead of helpingthem. So I hope that there's that
broader conversation. But Iguess the biggest piece for me is
I want them to feel a sense ofhope. And the stories from North
Shore Academy where, wherekids have kids and families have
(30:08):
really felt very, very lost.But the power of community to help
them find their path to a lifethat they never thought was available
to them. My hope is thatpeople, if they're seeing, if they're
feeling stuck, that they willknow that, that there's, that this
is a very hopeful message,that, that they will develop and
(30:29):
grow. And if we can embed kidsin healthy communities, who knows
where they will go.
What one small step could yousuggest that parents and educators
could potentially take rightaway to embrace the approach that
you have outlined in Untethered?
(30:51):
Yeah, so one, that's tricky.So I'll tell you where my brain went
first with that and, and thenI'll tell you where it went second,
if that makes sense. I thinkthe first step is to, to make sure
to take a look at our, ourlives and our kids lives and see
(31:11):
if we're pausing enough. Sowhat you know, we talked before about
this ability to, to pause.Mary Jo Barrett, a social worker,
talks about pausing andpondering. And I'd say pausing and
connecting. Do we have enoughpause time? Do you have enough connecting
time? That's not just rushingoff somewhere, going somewhere. Do
(31:33):
we have enough time where weare regulating and relating? And
then I think the second one istaking a look and doing an inventory.
Susie Wise has a book, I can'tremember the title of it, but it's,
it's a book on belonging. Andwhat she, she talks about is creating
belonging maps. And where inyour day do you have a sense of belonging?
(31:59):
And where in your day do younot have a sense of belonging? And
to begin to take a look athow, where do those, where do those
places show up? Is thereenough belonging in our lives? And
if there's not, where can weadd some, how can we create greater
sense of belonging indifferent places? So I think those
are the thoughts that I've gotas you ask that.
(32:23):
Certainly lots of importantfood for thought for parents, educators
and kids as well. DOUG BoltonAuthor, of creating connected families,
schools and communities toraise a resilient generation. Thank
you so much for your time andyour insight today.
Leanne, thank you so much. Itwas really an honor to speak with
you today.
(32:44):
Thank you.
To learn more about today'spodcast, guest and topic, as well
as other parenting themes,visit whereparents talk.com.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!